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ezik
07-09-2012, 23:39
As many of you have suggested that the banning system should be more open, maybe changed, but at the very least discussed, I want to continue the discussion, probably leading to some changes. I've started a new thread, because Tolko's is now all about cocktails and drugs.

This thread, I propose, is to provide "Glasnost" and lead to some "Perestroyka". In other words, letīs have an open discussion and come up with some positive changes.

The current problems with the bans are (if I got it right):
1- Duration unclear: will someone come back or not?
2- Decision-making leading to a ban (sometimes/often) unclear
3- Permanent ban sometimes seems "too permanent"


The first problem, members wondering if bans will be lifted or not, looks rather easy to tackle. Temporary banned users will be moved to a new usergroup called "The Sin Bin" or "In the Sin Bin", as Tony P suggested. Within a week from now, I expect to have this working. Thank you, Tony P for your suggestion.

The second problem, confusion about our decision-making as a mod-team, is something that can be improved, too. I think that it should become much clearer what sort of "offense" leads to what sort of sanction. Probably, this is a matter reviewing forum rules and adding a list of standard sanctions. Also, new users, when signing up, should be given, next to a link to the forum rules, a little abstract with things we regard off-limit (i.e. zero tolerance, immediate ban) at all times. I invite you to list your suggestions.

The third problem is more or less a matter of communication. If a user is permanently banned, he/she will get a message that the permanent ban can be lifted, but some matters need discussing. Spammers normally don't do this, for obvious reasons, but neither does any other "permanently" banned member. In most cases, they come up with a different account (avoiding the discussion), stirring up things even more, in the end resulting us mods here getting completely fed up.

I could write pages more, but as a kick-off for the discussion, I guess there is enough to comment on!

mrzuzzo
08-09-2012, 02:22
I think you're overcomplicating it.

I'm all for no bans at all, would be nice to have free speech at least on this forum.

Lost in moscow
08-09-2012, 02:36
He isn't actually, other members want it complicate, he is just giving them what they want. :alien:

harrycallaghan
08-09-2012, 03:11
Maybe to number the rules and have the number appear beside the "banned" icon so users can go and check why the member was banned. For example posting private messages would be rule no.1 and a person who receives a ban for this would have the icon "banned no.1" Then you could just split the rules into categories, e.g. 1-10 is permanent and 11-20 is semi permanent. Then it is up to the user to go research why the member they care about is banned and the mods dont have to answer for it.

Benedikt
08-09-2012, 05:02
I'm all for no bans at all, would be nice to have free speech at least on this forum.[/QUOTE]


but posters seem to forget sometimes where they are and what they are doing. some people don't seem to have heard about netiquette, what one can post or reply and how, and what not.Expat is a public forum and certain rules should be kept.
you have a gripe with someone, send a PM. and it is then up to the person concerned to accept it or not and notify the moderators.
It is easy hiding behind and Avatar and a funny picture.
And getting outright hateful,nasty,personal answers has nothing to do with free speech.

rubyrussia
08-09-2012, 12:16
"The internet isn't a free place."

Actually this is correct. It's more or less owned by America.

I think you should be able to tell people their product / service is crap, that they are full of shit, and their gf is a trollop because she gets around. All of this should be covered by freedom of speech.

Public humiliation can also be an effective tool too. I remember my old Russian teacher giving test results out loud of students that she liked but did poorly as a way to shame and motivate them.

Benedikt, there are plenty of people that gripe by sending PMs. I think Jas has too clean out her outbox on a daily basis because the file size limit is so tiny.

RichardB
08-09-2012, 12:36
My only suggestion here is that the decisions to ban someone should be consistent.

I've been banned twice now by the same mod whereas some of the other mods have either ignored what I've said / done or have accepted that their interpretation of what I've said / done is not what I intended to say / do.

Kartoshka
08-09-2012, 13:46
Maybe to number the rules and have the number appear beside the "banned" icon so users can go and check why the member was banned.

This is a great idea. I am not that bothered about why people are banned, but as some people are then this would be an easy way to keep everyone informed.

Remington
08-09-2012, 14:20
Maybe the admin can create a locked banned thread and edit the post to add/remove banned users with which rules was violated and whether ban is temporary or permanent. Admin/mods will be able to edit the locked post. This would be probably the easiest way to do it instead of trying to tweak the codes around and risk breaking the forum software. The members on the forum are anonymous so there's no need to worry about privacy issues.

rusmeister
08-09-2012, 14:34
"The internet isn't a free place."

Actually this is correct. It's more or less owned by America.

I think you should be able to tell people their product / service is crap, that they are full of shit, and their gf is a trollop because she gets around. All of this should be covered by freedom of speech.

Public humiliation can also be an effective tool too. I remember my old Russian teacher giving test results out loud of students that she liked but did poorly as a way to shame and motivate them.

Benedikt, there are plenty of people that gripe by sending PMs. I think Jas has too clean out her outbox on a daily basis because the file size limit is so tiny.

I disagree, Ruby. Benedikt is right.
Without civility you have chaos and anarchy. Unpleasant and negative thoughts, feelings and emotions are more readily spread in the absence of any control than kind and thoughtful ones.

There IS no "freedom" to shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater, nor should one be granted to throw hateful insults at all and sundry. You SHOULD be free to tell them that their product is of poor quality, that they are wrong, and that their girlfriend might not be as faithful as they think (although libel charges could be legitimately applied to you if you have no basis other than trolling for saying such things).

robertmf
08-09-2012, 15:45
"The internet isn't a free place."

Actually this is correct. It's more or less owned by America.

I think you should be able to tell people their product / service is crap, that they are full of shit, and their gf is a trollop because she gets around. All of this should be covered by freedom of speech.

Public humiliation can also be an effective tool too. I remember my old Russian teacher giving test results out loud of students that she liked but did poorly as a way to shame and motivate them.

Normally speaking, negativity gets you negativity; so the 'old Russian teacher' needed to take some education refresher courses.

Freedom of speech with responsibility. I lean more towards Benedikt's post and try to observe netiquette, while not being a wuss ;)

The mod/admins are volunteers, so to that end I'm not really interested in demanding more time from them simply for what is, afterall, babysitting.

They are much more tolerant than I am to posters who 'lose it' or are otherwise obnoxious to the general membership. I don't need it, so am perfectly happy with the moustaches system of poof and gone with no explanation.

rubyrussia
08-09-2012, 18:08
Where is DavidB?

Judge
08-09-2012, 18:16
Where is DavidB?

His ban expired ,he reads the forum but not bothered to post for now.Some people take their ban too personal I guess.

Judge
08-09-2012, 18:25
Maybe to number the rules and have the number appear beside the "banned" icon so users can go and check why the member was banned. For example posting private messages would be rule no.1 and a person who receives a ban for this would have the icon "banned no.1" Then you could just split the rules into categories, e.g. 1-10 is permanent and 11-20 is semi permanent. Then it is up to the user to go research why the member they care about is banned and the mods dont have to answer for it.

This is a good idea,Will save people from starting threads wanting to know what happened.
Usually before any perm ban a member is warned ,either by pm or given 5 points
which is only a warning.
A member that's been on the site for awhile is very rarely given an instant perm ban.

ezik
08-09-2012, 20:29
Good suggestion! Thanks!


Maybe to number the rules and have the number appear beside the "banned" icon so users can go and check why the member was banned. For example posting private messages would be rule no.1 and a person who receives a ban for this would have the icon "banned no.1" Then you could just split the rules into categories, e.g. 1-10 is permanent and 11-20 is semi permanent. Then it is up to the user to go research why the member they care about is banned and the mods dont have to answer for it.

ezik
08-09-2012, 21:22
My only suggestion here is that the decisions to ban someone should be consistent.

I've been banned twice now by the same mod whereas some of the other mods have either ignored what I've said / done or have accepted that their interpretation of what I've said / done is not what I intended to say / do.

Fair comment, we all should stick to one frame of reference. If someone is banned, the reason should be clear.

ezik
08-09-2012, 21:25
MrZuzzo, your comment suggests that there is no free speech here on the forum. Please share what sort of subjects you find impossible to discuss here or subject to over-moderation.


I think you're overcomplicating it.

I'm all for no bans at all, would be nice to have free speech at least on this forum.

franzewich
08-09-2012, 22:56
Do you still bar banned users from sending/receiving PMs? It think this rule is (was?) too tough, because it unnecessarily cuts off banned users from communication completely.

Besides, there were threads about banned users in which the guys could not jump in and defend themselves - how are you going to handle this? Just close the thread?

robertmf
08-09-2012, 23:09
Do you still bar banned users from sending/receiving PMs? It think this rule is (was?) too tough, because it unnecessarily cuts off banned users from communication completely.

Besides, there were threads about banned users in which the guys could not jump in and defend themselves - how are you going to handle this? Just close the thread?

:soapbox: For my 2 ру., those who abuse the privilege of membership aren't worth any further efforts or time wasted on them. Off with their heads, figuratively speaking of course, and into the bit bin of non-persons.

This certainly has happened in the Soviet era, but also comes to my mind as what happens when a radio personality changes broadcast stations. S/he effectively becomes a 'non person' at their old station and nary another word is mentioned about him/her.

Look at ..umm.. :AngelPray: Benedikt's post count. For that matter, look at mine. We have both participated at expat.ru forum over time and don't seem to have a problem with getting banned - simply by usually being netiquette.

Sure things can change - maybe Benedikt gives a recipe for salmonella, or I go :drink: looking for DDT on the Drunk Thread tank :drink:

Judge
09-09-2012, 00:13
Do you still bar banned users from sending/receiving PMs? It think this rule is (was?) too tough, because it unnecessarily cuts off banned users from communication completely.

This one is for Ezik....


Besides, there were threads about banned users in which the guys could not jump in and defend themselves - how are you going to handle this? Just close the thread?

Usually threads started about banned members get closed because the banned member can't defend themselves when they are getting slagged off...So it's best to close the thread and wait for the banned member to return....that's if it's temp ban...

robertmf
09-09-2012, 00:59
This one is for Ezik....

Usually threads started about banned members get closed because the banned member can't defend themselves when they are getting slagged off...So it's best to close the thread and wait for the banned member to return....that's if it's temp ban...

That's the Catch-22 Soviet spirit I'm talking about :bong:


If I had tomatoes & Worcestershire sauce I could make a bloody mary - if I had celery.


Yes, leave for Ezik. "Permissions" settings on these bulletin boards are a nightmare and induce ulcers :devilish:

robertmf
09-09-2012, 01:18
Usually threads started about banned members get closed because the banned member can't defend themselves when they are getting slagged off...

If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.

-- Niccolo Machiavelli (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/n/niccolo_machiavelli.html#1US4bmQwkkWkBPpx.99)

:rasta:

rusmeister
09-09-2012, 07:35
I think etiquette - simple civility - is essential.

Look at me. I'm not Mr Popular. I've got at least 5-6 people that can't stand my posts, and probably another dozen that just don't care for or read them. But I don't go around cursing and throwing personal insults (and yes, profanity tolerated in public IS part of the road to anarchy. I'll grant that limiting it to "Bardak" IS a way of controlling it for those who MUST).

Disagreement is inevitable in any place that is not a small clique of like-minded people. If people can be rude and uncivil, then you'll have an uncivilized place, where intelligent and decent people won't want to be.

You can't please everybody. You have to decide what kind of atmosphere you want to have here. As long as I'm here, I vote to require people to be reasonably polite, and ban ones that won't. (if my "vote" counts for anything).
Nastiness is not covered as "freedom of speech".

scd167
09-09-2012, 08:01
Nastiness is not covered as "freedom of speech".

As usual your "spew" is self-serving and just simply wrong. Freedom of speech is "Freedom of Speech" not freedom to say what Rusmeister thinks is acceptable ("not nasty" in his opinion). Amazing how full of themselves some people are... only their opinions are correct, only their moral values are the acceptable ones... etc.

TolkoRaz
09-09-2012, 09:24
Where is DavidB?

For asking that very same question, I was infracted for 'mod bashing'!

TolkoRaz
09-09-2012, 09:25
My only suggestion here is that the decisions to ban someone should be consistent.

I've been banned twice now by the same mod whereas some of the other mods have either ignored what I've said / done or have accepted that their interpretation of what I've said / done is not what I intended to say / do.

I can guess which one that was! ;)

robertmf
09-09-2012, 10:14
For asking that very same question, I was infracted for 'mod bashing'!

You're lucky you were only infracted. Here, you get to be compacted - into bridge pillar. Google "Jimmy Hoffa" :Loco: :drink:

robertmf
09-09-2012, 10:18
As usual ... etc.

Thanks for reminding me to add you to my [Ignore] list.

DavidB
09-09-2012, 10:49
One more last post, because I think the previous thread contains some misinformation...


Over a very petty argument, you got upset with someone and went searching for info about that person online and then posted the info in the thread.I wouldn't like to see what you do if someone really insulted you.
That isn't the correct sequence of events, which you would know if the related posts hadn't been deleted when I was banned a few weeks ago. I also think it's unprofessional for a moderator to make comments about the character of a forum member based on hypothetical assumptions, especially in a thread which is supposed to be about clarifying the forum's rules.

I was told that the main reason for my ban was for posting "external" or "real life" information. In that case, wouldn't the following post also be ban-worthy?
http://www.expat.ru/forum/showthread.php?p=1043537#post1043537
* no offence to Richard B - I don't see any problem with his post or any reason to ban him.


We can discuss this by pm if it pleases you.
That line is often repeated, but in my own experience and based on the comments of others, no meaningful discussion will come of any PMs related to bans and infractions. I contacted the moderator group and Admin after I was banned but never received any response.


Usually threads started about banned members get closed because the banned member can't defend themselves when they are getting slagged off...So it's best to close the thread and wait for the banned member to return....that's if it's temp ban...
And yet, a thread about my ban was created by a moderator and left open. If you have a rule about those kinds of threads, its implementation appears to be very irregular.


MrZuzzo, your comment suggests that there is no free speech here on the forum. Please share what sort of subjects you find impossible to discuss here or subject to over-moderation.
I can give an example: Judge edited my previous post. The redacted paragraph was nothing more than an indication that some people know me on another site (which I didn't name or give instructions about how to find), and that those who don't know me elsewhere may continue to communicate by PM. What's the problem? I know it's against the rules to promote other sites, so I made sure that what I wrote couldn't be interpreted that way.


All of the above comes across as being very closed and inconsistent. Having unwritten rules and applying decisions without giving feedback does nothing to facilitate understanding of the rules and how you wish for them to be interpreted.

robertmf
09-09-2012, 11:01
One more last post, because I think the previous thread contains some misinformation...



You have too much time on your hands. :coffee: You need a hobby.

Judge
09-09-2012, 12:37
David,to help from saying this is my last post over and over again,I'll send you a pm later,right now silent hunters are stealing saws .

Remington
09-09-2012, 17:17
Wow... The admin/mod deleted post by and banned RubyRussia too. This is getting out of control with posts/threads being deleted and banned users over something innocuous or insignificant WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS! How can this be a forum if something continues to disappear and users being banned by trigger happy admins or mods? If this continues then I see no reasons why I should remain here even I have not violated any rules.

scd167
09-09-2012, 17:54
Wow... The admin/mod deleted post by and banned RubyRussia too. This is getting out of control with posts/threads being deleted and banned users over something innocuous or insignificant WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS! How can this be a forum if something continues to disappear and users being banned by trigger happy admins or mods? If this continues then I see no reasons why I should remain here even I have not violated any rules.

Pretty amazing...

:10475:

FatAndy
09-09-2012, 18:00
posts/threads being deleted and banned users over something innocuous or insignificant WITHOUT ANY EXPLANATIONS!
Remington, I'll explain the last case - rubyrussia unfortunately went to personal insults to moderator. It is violation of the rule #21 ( http://www.expat.ru/forum/rules.php ).

Maybe rainy weather has influence? :watching::watching:

scd167
09-09-2012, 18:01
Remington, I'll explain the last case - rubyrussia unfortunately went to personal insults to moderator. It is violation of the rule #21 ( http://www.expat.ru/forum/rules.php ).

:9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456:

FatAndy
09-09-2012, 18:04
:9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456::9456:
Strange, but yes, it is so.

Remington
09-09-2012, 18:14
Remington, I'll explain the last case - rubyrussia unfortunately went to personal insults to moderator. It is violation of the rule #21 ( http://www.expat.ru/forum/rules.php ).

This is precisely what I would like to see on this forum with very brief explanation. This will stop people from opening up new threads/posts with conspiracy theories why they got banned. Thank you very much.

If a offending post/thread results in user being banned, the admin/mod can edit/replace the offending post with brief explanation for the ban. Deleting it makes no sense.

scd167
09-09-2012, 18:14
Strange, but yes, it is so.

Wow, there are only 29 rules, surely there should be more? My favorite is "13. The Admin team shall be the sole arbitrator of what does and what does not violate community standards." Yes, we are alive and well here in Russia.


:yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes:

FatAndy
09-09-2012, 18:55
If a offending post/thread results in user being banned, the admin/mod can edit/replace the offending post with brief explanation for the ban. Deleting it makes no sense.
This has explanation too. First, some of us enter forum from the areas where data connection is unstable (i.e. weak signal of mobile op network, or spotty coverage, or on the way from one city to another etc.). Second, sometimes we just don't have enough time to write explanation, even short one.

I clearly understand that it may produce those conspiracy theories, but... hmmm... let's use common sense and "razor" of William our Ockham ;)


Wow, there are only 29 rules, surely there should be more?
There MAY be more, but do you/we need it? If you have brilliant idea, pls share. ;)


My favorite is "13. The Admin team shall be the sole arbitrator of what does and what does not violate community standards."
I also like my machine gun.
It is the concept of minimal evil. Who else you think must be included? Should we organize voting on every case of ban? Can you imagine the bardak it will result in?;)


Yes, we are alive and well here in Russia.
I like that you like it ;)

RichardB
09-09-2012, 19:41
Remington, I'll explain the last case - rubyrussia unfortunately went to personal insults to moderator. It is violation of the rule #21 ( http://www.expat.ru/forum/rules.php ).

Maybe rainy weather has influence? :watching::watching:

Though it is okay to personally insult the non-moderator members :)

FatAndy
09-09-2012, 20:00
Though it is okay to personally insult the non-moderator members :)
Don't hesitate to press Report button if you feel somebody has offended you.

rusmeister
09-09-2012, 21:26
As usual your "spew" is self-serving and just simply wrong. Freedom of speech is "Freedom of Speech" not freedom to say what Rusmeister thinks is acceptable ("not nasty" in his opinion). Amazing how full of themselves some people are... only their opinions are correct, only their moral values are the acceptable ones... etc.

Shut your hole, you stupid f#%!? a&$!%#
You don't know s&$*, crawl back into your mother's ...

Just to make the point.

You say it is "self-serving". I say it serves everyone.
You say it is acceptable. I say it is nasty.
You say my rejection of that is "spewing". I say it is common sense.

In this, my opinion is certainly correct, and that moral position is the only acceptable one. I don't give a hoot about myself. It is right to condemn and ban that sort of thing. We can only have freedom if we establish limits within which to enjoy it.

scd167
09-09-2012, 23:15
Shut your hole, you stupid f#%!? a&$!%#
You don't know s&$*, crawl back into your mother's ...

Just to make the point.

You say it is "self-serving". I say it serves everyone.
You say it is acceptable. I say it is nasty.
You say my rejection of that is "spewing". I say it is common sense.

In this, my opinion is certainly correct, and that moral position is the only acceptable one. I don't give a hoot about myself. It is right to condemn and ban that sort of thing. We can only have freedom if we establish limits within which to enjoy it.

You just showed everything I have been saying about you. You are a total hypocrite. Only your opinion and religious beliefs are acceptable. You try to impress people with your supposed intellectual prowess and pontifications... you are all wind (gas) and truly intellectually challenged. You cannot post without writing a dissertation, because of your insecurities with your real issues.

:11629:

PeteD
09-09-2012, 23:19
As many of you have suggested that the banning system should be more open, maybe changed, but at the very least discussed, I want to continue the discussion, probably leading to some changes. I've started a new thread, because Tolko's is now all about cocktails and drugs.

This thread, I propose, is to provide "Glasnost" and lead to some "Perestroyka". In other words, letīs have an open discussion and come up with some positive changes.

The current problems with the bans are (if I got it right):
1- Duration unclear: will someone come back or not?
2- Decision-making leading to a ban (sometimes/often) unclear
3- Permanent ban sometimes seems "too permanent"


The first problem, members wondering if bans will be lifted or not, looks rather easy to tackle. Temporary banned users will be moved to a new usergroup called "The Sin Bin" or "In the Sin Bin", as Tony P suggested. Within a week from now, I expect to have this working. Thank you, Tony P for your suggestion.

The second problem, confusion about our decision-making as a mod-team, is something that can be improved, too. I think that it should become much clearer what sort of "offense" leads to what sort of sanction. Probably, this is a matter reviewing forum rules and adding a list of standard sanctions. Also, new users, when signing up, should be given, next to a link to the forum rules, a little abstract with things we regard off-limit (i.e. zero tolerance, immediate ban) at all times. I invite you to list your suggestions.

The third problem is more or less a matter of communication. If a user is permanently banned, he/she will get a message that the permanent ban can be lifted, but some matters need discussing. Spammers normally don't do this, for obvious reasons, but neither does any other "permanently" banned member. In most cases, they come up with a different account (avoiding the discussion), stirring up things even more, in the end resulting us mods here getting completely fed up.

I could write pages more, but as a kick-off for the discussion, I guess there is enough to comment on!

Ezik, and the rest of the mods.... Thanks for listening and for attempting to address and resolve the situation.

From reading through the posts, there seem to be some "casualties" of the old regime, who feel / felt unjustifiably ostracised.

I would encourage you to bring in the changes, as suggested, make things more transparent, and let time calm things down. Good Luck!

Remington
09-09-2012, 23:40
You just showed everything I have been saying about you. You are a total hypocrite.

you say hypocrite and I say genius!

Thank you very much. :emote_popcorn:

franzewich
10-09-2012, 04:02
Don't hesitate to press Report button if you feel somebody has offended you.

Sorry, Andy, I tried this a couple of times - no reaction whatsoever (not referring to you personally). O.k., in all fairness, one of the mods concerned was removed from his post.

I said it before in another thread, I feel that there has been a certain "buddy bonus" in this forum. It seemed as if some mods went out for a few (or more) beers with certain obnoxious posters who could rampage around and attack and insult others almost as freely as they pleased - without any reaction from the mods' side. "Whose Beer I Drink Whose Song I Sing!"

That, however, seems to have improved; this forum has definitely calmed down. But I sense a swing in the opposite direction, as if, IMHPO, some scape goats were needed.

Benedikt
10-09-2012, 04:42
if a person has his/her opinion and principes and stands for it, is that so wrong?
primitive replies and all -*^%$Ģ- will serve nothing and just shows at what level this is. On the other hand, sometimes i believe it is necessary to reply in kind. The way you shout into the forest, that way the echo will return.
(Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so kommt das Echo zurück, as the proverb goes correctly in German language). i do that as well, or maybe the -devil- makes to do such replies.Than i use the PM function.
But at lest here on the open forum we should stay with constructive criticism and replies.

ezik
11-09-2012, 19:44
Do you still bar banned users from sending/receiving PMs? It think this rule is (was?) too tough, because it unnecessarily cuts off banned users from communication completely.

Currently, this is the case. Now, if we introduce the Sin Bin for those on a temporary ban, it is a possibility to open the PM function.


Besides, there were threads about banned users in which the guys could not jump in and defend themselves - how are you going to handle this? Just close the thread?

Close as much as possible.

Also, members could refrain from starting these threads themselves. :)

ezik
11-09-2012, 20:35
Thanks for the contributions so far!
I'm not going to comment on individual cases of banning or edited/removed posts here and now, because I want to use this thread to get an idea for improvements. Being in arguments at the same time is not constructive.

Forum rules
We have "only" 29 and, to be honest, I almost got an headache going through them today. I don't think that the sheer amount of rules is a problem, but the fact that they have no logical grouping makes anyone think "oh, well, right, not interested" and click "accept". Thinking of the following improvements to the forum rules page:
- Starting section with a summary of the most essential rules & principles. Just a few lines.
- Forum rules, grouped by subject/area, clearer and shorter descriptions
- Infraction section: what do infractions mean, what amount gives you a ban and for how long.

Ban levels
Currently, temporarily banned and permanently banned members are in the same group. That needs to change and it will. At the very least, it should be clear whether someone is banned forever or not, which is not the case now. In addition, temporary banned members might still have access to PM.

Temporary banned members, in my view, are members primarily. But if you're on a temp ban, you've been told that some other members are questioning your manners.

But there's a number of additional possibilities, too. It's easy to play around with usergroups and forums, make sections members-only (so, for members that are not serving a ban). But let's not make things to complex yet.

Bans, in principle, are a result of forum behaviour that is not in accordance with the forum rules. They are a sanction, aimed at preventing the same forum behaviour in the future. At some point, repeated violations will inevitably result in a perm ban.

robertmf
11-09-2012, 20:52
. At some point, repeated violations will result inevitable result in you being sent to Perm' ban.

Too verbose. How about "If you're not sociable, then we don't need you' :question:

scd167
11-09-2012, 22:35
Too verbose. How about "If you're not sociable, then we don't need you' :question:


Thank goodness, we have now come up with a truly quantifiable criteria... "If you're not sociable, then we don't need you"

Brilliant my dear Watson, absolutely brilliant!

:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

ezik
11-09-2012, 22:42
You might want to have a look at what Robertmf reacted on in, which I think is rather obvious, an ironical way.

You're reacting, which is fine, but what is your own view?


Thank goodness, we have now come up with a truly quantifiable criteria... "If you're not sociable, then we don't need you"

Brilliant my dear Watson, absolutely brilliant!

:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

scd167
11-09-2012, 22:49
You might want to have a look at what Robertmf reacted on in, which I think is rather obvious, an ironical way.

You're reacting, which is fine, but what is your own view?

Hmm, so ironical is cool, but facetious is not? I was not reacting, I was responding to an ironical post in probably a way too facetious and complicated approach to humor (at least for moderators?).

:yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes:

Oops, I feel a ban coming here... Can I throw the red challenge flag? Are the real moderators on strike and we have substitutes?

peppermintpaddy
11-09-2012, 23:00
Though it is okay to personally insult the non-moderator members :)

depends who those members are......better not insult the arselickers or you'll get banned also.

ezik
11-09-2012, 23:18
It will take slightly more to provoke me. Oh, let me correct that: a lot more.

I invited you to share your own view, but it seems you are still in "reaction" mode, rather than "action" mode.

I asked you something and I think it was a reasonable question. Attitude and populism won't answer the question.

In the name of harmony, your poor attempt at bashing is ignored.


Hmm, so ironical is cool, but facetious is not? I was not reacting, I was responding to an ironical post in probably a way too facetious and complicated approach to humor (at least for moderators?).

:yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes:

Oops, I feel a ban coming here... Can I throw the red challenge flag? Are the real moderators on strike and we have substitutes?

Remington
11-09-2012, 23:26
It will take slightly more to provoke me. Oh, let me correct that: a lot more.

It's not scd167 that annoys you.. it's the non-stop talking donkey avatar.

ezik
11-09-2012, 23:55
Interesting angle.
Could be that my ever-nodding hedgehog avi worked on his nerves...


It's not scd167 that annoys you.. it's the non-stop talking donkey avatar.

robertmf
12-09-2012, 00:39
You might want to have a look at what Robertmf reacted to, which I think is rather obvious, in an ironic way.


Why "obvious" and "ironic" :question: Не понял.

I don't like "verbose" on a consistent basis. "Rexy" just came back from the closed city Пермь if that's what you mean. She said it's not closed anymore.

robertmf
12-09-2012, 00:40
Interesting angle.
Could be that my ever-nodding hedgehog avi worked on his nerves...

Yes. You need new avatar :bong:

robertmf
12-09-2012, 00:54
It's not scd167 that annoys you.. it's the non-stop talking donkey avatar.

This isn't the Religion thread. Ezik is not riding donkey, dirty feet maybe. Donkey no.

PeteD
12-09-2012, 02:28
:verymad:Enough already.....

Guys (and girls) - this is one of the more serious threads, started by the Administrator, inviting feedback, (which I am sure he was hoping would be constructive), and you start jerking around.

Say something RELEVANT and CONSTRUCTIVE or STFU.

:verymad:

TolkoRaz
12-09-2012, 16:36
Yozhik,

IMHO, permanent Bans should be used as a last resort and only after a warning(s) have been given.

Temporary Bans should used as above, but obviously for lesser disobedience which should be defined in a redrafted set of rules. The idea that members could still log on and use the PM facility is a good one for those facing a temporary ban.

It should be clear to the 'community' why a poster has been banned - the evidence should be left for others to view where the banned member has overstepped the line. Of course, certain areas might need to be edited, but the gist of what was written should be clear to see.

This would stop people like myself from creating a thread asking why DavidB has been banned and then getting an infraction for Mod Bashing!

The automatic Locking of old Threads should be enforced to stop Admins from spanking posters from resurrecting old threads. Define what an old thread is and then after 3 month(?) or whatever period you decide is 'old', lock it, but allow users to view the thread as there might still be useful information contained within the thread.

And lastly, for any set of rules to be meaningful, they need to applied and enforced in a consistent manner. Sadly, there have been inconsistencies in the application of the Rules, the deleting of posts and the banning of members. I am not sure if your 'colleagues' act independently / unilaterally or if you routinely discuss issues prior to taking action.

Without pointing fingers, some Mods / Admins are more zealous and trigger happy than some others who have a more laid back and relaxed attitude - this is understandable, we are all human (I think), but consistency must play a crucial role in Policing the Forum.

The above random thoughts are meant as food for thought; I hope it is useful and will help you in the decision making process :)

rusmeister
12-09-2012, 18:09
Yozhik,

IMHO, permanent Bans should be used as a last resort and only after a warning(s) have been given.

Temporary Bans should used as above, but obviously for lesser disobedience which should be defined in a redrafted set of rules. The idea that members could still log on and use the PM facility is a good one for those facing a temporary ban.

It should be clear to the 'community' why a poster has been banned - the evidence should be left for others to view where the banned member has overstepped the line. Of course, certain areas might need to be edited, but the gist of what was written should be clear to see.

This would stop people like myself from creating a thread asking why DavidB has been banned and then getting an infraction for Mod Bashing!

The automatic Locking of old Threads should be enforced to stop Admins from spanking posters from resurrecting old threads. Define what an old thread is and then after 3 month(?) or whatever period you decide is 'old', lock it, but allow users to view the thread as there might still be useful information contained within the thread.

And lastly, for any set of rules to be meaningful, they need to applied and enforced in a consistent manner. Sadly, there have been inconsistencies in the application of the Rules, the deleting of posts and the banning of members. I am not sure if your 'colleagues' act independently / unilaterally or if you routinely discuss issues prior to taking action.

Without pointing fingers, some Mods / Admins are more zealous and trigger happy than some others who have a more laid back and relaxed attitude - this is understandable, we are all human (I think), but consistency must play a crucial role in Policing the Forum.

The above random thoughts are meant as food for thought; I hope it is useful and will help you in the decision making process :)

I agree with TR, and suggest that 3 months be the date a thread becomes "old". One month is ridiculously short. Some of us might leave for that long, come back and want to comment on THAT thread, and be forced to start a new one just to do that.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I haven't had any problems with mods - even the ones that strongly disagree with me. But any rules we have ought to be ones we'd want to live under and have applied to us as well as to others...

franzewich
12-09-2012, 22:26
... The automatic Locking of old Threads should be enforced to stop Admins from spanking posters from resurrecting old threads. Define what an old thread is and then after 3 month(?) or whatever period you decide is 'old', lock it, but allow users to view the thread as there might still be useful information contained within the thread.

Maybe one exception might me made on that, i.e. that the initiator of the "old" thread is the only one who is allowed to pick it up again? Sometimes an interesting new aspect, a turn of events, might come up to justify re-opening it. :question:

Judge
12-09-2012, 22:56
IMHO, permanent Bans should be used as a last resort and only after a warning(s) have been given.



It should be clear to the 'community' why a poster has been banned - the evidence should be left for others to view where the banned member has overstepped the line. Of course, certain areas might need to be edited, but the gist of what was written should be clear to see.


Sorry Raz, I disagree, if I'm told to slit my throat and die of a vile cancer or that I'm a retard and a prick from fairly well known members then these members will get a quick perm ban and the posts will be deleted and not left up for everyone to see so they can try and work out what was said....
Only 2 members have been perm banned this last month, you know we don't ban for the fun of it, pm's are sent, points given first, but sometimes people take it a little too far... See above for why the two members were perm banned.

harrycallaghan
13-09-2012, 00:12
Not to be hammering on my point from earlier, but I think the rules should be broken up into groups which would satisfy what ezik said earlier about having rules prioratised for newbies, so it doesnt seem like a bunch of mumbo jumbo that people dont want to read and just scroll past, and that they should be structure and numbered and so the bans can be structured and numbered, for those members of the forum who seek answers.

I disagree with tolko about leaving posts up and editing them, there would be more trouble over what was edited and what was not.

Inola
13-09-2012, 11:07
Only 2 members have been perm banned this last month, you know we don't ban for the fun of it, pm's are sent, points given first, but sometimes people take it a little too far... See above for why the two members were perm banned.

I don't question your decisions but could you please at least specify who are the 2 recently perm banned?
At present we can never know if the ban is a permanent or a temporary one (nor how long the latter lasts)... unless we start asking questions...

Judge
13-09-2012, 11:56
I don't question your decisions but could you please at least specify who are the 2 recently perm banned?
At present we can never know if the ban is a permanent or a temporary one (nor how long the latter lasts)... unless we start asking questions...

Swordfish and Rubyrussia are the two perm banned members.

Ezik will be working on a way to let members know if it's a temp or perm ban in the future....

rusmeister
13-09-2012, 13:32
Swordfish and Rubyrussia are the two perm banned members.

Ezik will be working on a way to let members know if it's a temp or perm ban in the future....

But a ban applies only to a user login, not an IP, right? As far as I understand, people can create an indefinite number of new identities.
I'm a one-identity guy across the Net. Can't stand different identities. Life's confusing enough without hiding behind sock puppets.

Judge
13-09-2012, 13:37
But a ban applies only to a user login, not an IP, right? As far as I understand, pele can create an indefinite number of new identities...

You're right it does, but we can also ban IP's... Blocking IP's is usually for spammers .

ezik
13-09-2012, 13:53
The forum rules re-shuffle and this temp-ban group have priority at the moment, and both can be done.

I don't think, however, that it will be possible to automatically show exactly when a temp ban is over. But it will already be an improvement.


Swordfish and Rubyrussia are the two perm banned members.

Ezik will be working on a way to let members know if it's a temp or perm ban in the future....

Inola
13-09-2012, 14:03
I don't think, however, that it will be possible to automatically show exactly when a temp ban is over. But it will already be an improvement.

Isn't it possible to indicate manually somewhere the date of ban expiry (if not near the nick - on the personal page of the member in question, as public message, for example - the member can always delete it afterwords if he/she prefers)? Just an idea...

ezik
13-09-2012, 14:52
IMHO, permanent Bans should be used as a last resort and only after a warning(s) have been given.

This is the usual practice. And, normally, a permanent ban is applied after multiple temporary bans.

Even a permanent ban is not the last resort. Even when permanently banned, a "come-back" can be discussed. I'd say the last resort is an IP-ban or maybe even a ban on MAC-address.


Temporary Bans should used as above, but obviously for lesser disobedience which should be defined in a redrafted set of rules. The idea that members could still log on and use the PM facility is a good one for those facing a temporary ban.

Both items are being worked on.


It should be clear to the 'community' why a poster has been banned - the evidence should be left for others to view where the banned member has overstepped the line. Of course, certain areas might need to be edited, but the gist of what was written should be clear to see.

This would stop people like myself from creating a thread asking why DavidB has been banned and then getting an infraction for Mod Bashing!

Well, the point is that this evidence is also visible to the public eye. Most infractions/bans are given for insults. The reason behind this is not only our wish for this forum, 'the community' to be civilized; the insults make the forum look bad in the public eye, too. If this forum gets the image of being a snake pit where everyone has a go at each other, the result will be that, sooner or later, our traffic goes down and advertisers run away.

Now, if we decide to leave the evidence "somewhere" to view, it will have to became a members-only area: posts will be moved from their original thread to some trash heap that only registered members can view.

It's all possible, but it all takes effort. And I'm willing to facilitate, but I don't want to create an extra administrative burden for the Mods.


The automatic Locking of old Threads should be enforced to stop Admins from spanking posters from resurrecting old threads. Define what an old thread is and then after 3 month(?) or whatever period you decide is 'old', lock it, but allow users to view the thread as there might still be useful information contained within the thread.

No automatic feature for that in our forum, but I think this is a good point. Looks like there is a vBulletin plugin for it.


And lastly, for any set of rules to be meaningful, they need to applied and enforced in a consistent manner. Sadly, there have been inconsistencies in the application of the Rules, the deleting of posts and the banning of members. I am not sure if your 'colleagues' act independently / unilaterally or if you routinely discuss issues prior to taking action.

We routinely discuss issues, lots of them before action is being taken, and lots of them only after they happened.

See my comment below on consistency.


Without pointing fingers, some Mods / Admins are more zealous and trigger happy than some others who have a more laid back and relaxed attitude - this is understandable, we are all human (I think), but consistency must play a crucial role in Policing the Forum.

All mods have the best intentions with the forum and I can assure you that they are all really friendly, peaceful and rather relaxed characters. All different, of course, but no short fuses or explosives there.

Any perceived inconsistency, therefore, is something I have to solve by providing better guidelines to the team. And I see room for improvements.


The above random thoughts are meant as food for thought; I hope it is useful and will help you in the decision making process :)

Thanks!

ezik
14-09-2012, 13:02
Thanks, Inola.

If there is something automated for this, I'll configure it. Doing this manually is not preferred, as it adds to the work already involved with infractions & bans.

I'm happy with making things more transparent and consistent and I'm convinced that there should be a clear and visible distinction between permanently banned members and temporarily banned members. Hence the upcoming Sin Bin and other measures.

But providing yet another, manual, extra service for those who are breaking forum rules, I think, is overdoing it a bit, no?


Isn't it possible to indicate manually somewhere the date of ban expiry (if not near the nick - on the personal page of the member in question, as public message, for example - the member can always delete it afterwords if he/she prefers)? Just an idea...

RichardB
14-09-2012, 13:23
Ezik: Do temporary bans ever become 'spent' in the eyes of the admins and mods?

Where can I find out how many infraction points I have following my two temp bans?

For everyones general information: Who is the ultimate arbitrator of the bans, who is the final 'appeal judge' and given that someone who is banned cannot send PM's or reply to PM's sent by the admins and mods what is the contact email address?

TolkoRaz
14-09-2012, 13:24
The Sin Bin is an excellent idea :)

I wonder what sins I can enjoy in there! ;) Will BabyGirl be waiting for me there? :D

RichardB
14-09-2012, 13:27
I wonder what sins I can enjoy in there! ;) Will BabyGirl be waiting for me there? :D

Someone throw a bucket of cold water over him please!

Lost in moscow
14-09-2012, 13:57
Two rules for any forum, considering that your a contributor and not a spammer.
Don't personally attack anyone & don't post overly graphic stuff

This isn't a children's forum, too many rules kills the desire to post, mods who take the rules word for word, kill the desire to post. Over complicated ban/suspended systems, kill the desire to post.

Ban those who break the above rules repeatedly.

"dunce cap" those who are first time offenders and other mistermeaner.

Again, this isn't a kids forum and i do not expect anything to be censored outside of the above two rules.

Yes arguments about stuff can get heated, but heated war of opinions and personal attacking someone for their opinions are two different things. But it is why we are here, to share our opinions, attempt to find weak points in others opinions while defending our own from the same scrutiny. Those who are overly sensitive and get offended more then a 8 year old girl do no belong here. They should not be the reason why everyone else has to suffer and be limited to what they can say.

FatAndy
14-09-2012, 13:57
Rich, don't stop him, Tolik rocks! ;)

ezik
14-09-2012, 14:01
Ezik: Do temporary bans ever become 'spent' in the eyes of the admins and mods?

Yes. Quite a few members have been temporarily banned in the past. Once the ban is over, it's basically a "fresh start": 0 infractions.

Unless, of course, that member immediately starts repeating the old sins or if the member tried to dodge the ban with multiple logins, etc.


Where can I find out how many infraction points I have following my two temp bans?

As per what I wrote above, you have none. Once an infraction has expired (normally a matter of a few days), it has expired.


For everyones general information: Who is the ultimate arbitrator of the bans, who is the final 'appeal judge' and given that someone who is banned cannot send PM's or reply to PM's sent by the admins and mods what is the contact email address?

The ultimate arbitrator is forum admin, i.e. me, and I can be contacted on erik@expat.ru
If you want to make sure that the site owner is in the loop: webmaster@expat.ru is always looked at first by her.

ezik
14-09-2012, 18:33
OK, the Sin Bin is in place and working. As we have no-one in it at the moment (no temp bans at this point), I can't really demonstrate it, but I tested it and it works.

Now, one thing I noticed was that banned users can't read the forum, but if you're logged out, you actually can.

For permanently banned users, this is not an issue. But it would be for inhabitants of the Sin Bin: having to log out to see the forums, but having to log in again to use, e.g. PM.

Anyway, these are roughly the settings for the Sin Bin. Members in the Sin Bin:
- can, generally, read the forum (some parts of it may get excluded)
- cannot post on the forum. Pressing the button for a reply or new thread will give you the mesagge that you are banned. This message also includes when the ban will be lifted.
- can use their PM and have their regular PM limits.

Our new test user SinBin will give a short demo....

SinBin
14-09-2012, 18:36
Hey! I am Sin Bin.
This discussion is stupid and the site is stupid and blah, blah, blah, I feel a ban coming up, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you're all %@#$!#, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

ezik
14-09-2012, 18:49
Thank you, SinBin. You'll be stuck in the Sin Bin indefinitely for demo purposes.

People can try to PM you. If they do, please PM back, to demonstrate that you can...

I'll continue with adapting the forum rules...

Judge
14-09-2012, 19:42
I mentioned earlier in this thread that Rubyrussia was banned, he's back on the site... welcome back...

Judge
14-09-2012, 19:51
Thank you, SinBin. You'll be stuck in the Sin Bin indefinitely for demo purposes.

People can try to PM you. If they do, please PM back, to demonstrate that you can...

I'll continue with adapting the forum rules...
So under SinBin's name it only says Temp Ban, doesn't say for how long..




Infraction System

Insulting other members = 5 points
Bad language (outside of Bardak) = 5 points
Spamming will get you automatically banned and your account deleted

10 points will automatically ban you for 2 days
20 points will automatically ban you for 5 days

Remington
14-09-2012, 20:11
Hey! I am Sin Bin.
This discussion is stupid and the site is stupid and blah, blah, blah, I feel a ban coming up, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you're all %@#$!#, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I added you to my ignore list. :p

ezik
14-09-2012, 20:35
That's correct! Getting that expiry date to show up is a bit of a pain... It's not standard-functionality (at all) and not standard practice. On most other vBulletin forums, those who are banned are not serviced.

But I guess the rule is quite simple now: someone in the Sin Bin (with the exception of user SinBin) can be expected back within now and 2 to 5 days.

It's possible to work with infraction groups. In that case, if someone has 10 (2 days ban) or 20 (5 days ban) points, they could fall into that sort of group. In that case, if members received a non-banning infraction, we could flag them too.

It's all possible, depending on how much effort is really requested to be put into this. Just a matter of combining system rules, parameters and user groups. And spending time on it.

For now, those in the Sin Bin are not showing up as Banned. I think this is already an improvement.


So under SinBin's name it only says Temp Ban, doesn't say for how long..

ezik
14-09-2012, 21:24
Completely agree that the basic Rules of Engagement should be simple. While reviewing the forum rules, I landed on these basic principles:

- Do not insult other members and refrain from trolling
- Respect the opinions of others
- Do not post material that is discriminatory, inflammatory, and/or illegal
- Mind your language: profanity is only allowed in a special section of the forum, called "Bardak"
- Spamming is NEVER allowed. Advertising is only allowed under strict conditions.
- Buying and selling goods & services (on a NON-commercial basis) is only allowed in the Marketplace (http://www.expat.ru/forum/vbclassified.php)
- Respect the privacy of others (and yourself)

Censorship is something that should only be done if strictly needed to enforce these principles.

Yet, the site is Russian, the forum is, everyone working on the site (voluntarily or paid) is in Russia. So that's a relevant legal framework, too. LEGAL, not political.


Two rules for any forum, considering that your a contributor and not a spammer.
Don't personally attack anyone & don't post overly graphic stuff

This isn't a children's forum, too many rules kills the desire to post, mods who take the rules word for word, kill the desire to post. Over complicated ban/suspended systems, kill the desire to post.

Ban those who break the above rules repeatedly.

"dunce cap" those who are first time offenders and other mistermeaner.

Again, this isn't a kids forum and i do not expect anything to be censored outside of the above two rules.

Yes arguments about stuff can get heated, but heated war of opinions and personal attacking someone for their opinions are two different things. But it is why we are here, to share our opinions, attempt to find weak points in others opinions while defending our own from the same scrutiny. Those who are overly sensitive and get offended more then a 8 year old girl do no belong here. They should not be the reason why everyone else has to suffer and be limited to what they can say.

RichardB
14-09-2012, 22:27
- Respect the opinions of others

That one will never work :)

rusmeister
15-09-2012, 06:28
Completely agree that the basic Rules of Engagement should be simple. While reviewing the forum rules, I landed on these basic principles:

- Do not insult other members and refrain from trolling
- Respect the opinions of others
- Do not post material that is discriminatory, inflammatory, and/or illegal
- Mind your language: profanity is only allowed in a special section of the forum, called "Bardak"
- Spamming is NEVER allowed. Advertising is only allowed under strict conditions.
- Buying and selling goods & services (on a NON-commercial basis) is only allowed in the Marketplace (http://www.expat.ru/forum/vbclassified.php)
- Respect the privacy of others (and yourself)

Censorship is something that should only be done if strictly needed to enforce these principles.

Yet, the site is Russian, the forum is, everyone working on the site (voluntarily or paid) is in Russia. So that's a relevant legal framework, too. LEGAL, not political.

If "respect opinions" means "agree" or "approve" of them, it can't work. If it means "respect the RIGHT of others to have their opinions" it CAN work.

"discriminate" is insufficiently clear. The way things are going today pedophilia will begin to become legal in ten years (sex with minors) and then it will be illegal to "discriminate" against them. What I'm saying is that the idea that "discriminate" wrongly expresses is a denial that all men are created equal (or that they evolved equal by wild improbable cosmic chance), and THAT is what is right in the word. If there is ever anything that people can and ought to object to, its defenders can cry "discrimination!". So it has to be defined as a perception of personal superiority ("I am better than you because..."). The mistake would be to accuse someone who thinks, say, "swinging" is bad, for society as well as the individual of "discrimination" against "swingers".

TolkoRaz
15-09-2012, 11:16
Completely agree that the basic Rules of Engagement should be simple. While reviewing the forum rules, I landed on these basic principles:

- Do not insult other members and refrain from trolling
- Respect the opinions of others
- Do not post material that is discriminatory, inflammatory, and/or illegal
- Mind your language: profanity is only allowed in a special section of the forum, called "Bardak"
- Spamming is NEVER allowed. Advertising is only allowed under strict conditions.
- Buying and selling goods & services (on a NON-commercial basis) is only allowed in the Marketplace (http://www.expat.ru/forum/vbclassified.php)
- Respect the privacy of others (and yourself)

Censorship is something that should only be done if strictly needed to enforce these principles.

Yet, the site is Russian, the forum is, everyone working on the site (voluntarily or paid) is in Russia. So that's a relevant legal framework, too. LEGAL, not political.

Respect the Privacy

What does that actually mean? What don't you want people to do on this Forum? I think you need to expand that statement (No publishing of other people's photos, e-mail / Skype addresses / FaceBook Links, phone numbers or any other piece of information or data which identifies or assists in the identification of a member, family member or partner etc.

Respect the Privacy (and yourself) What do you mean 'and yourself?'

If I want to post naked photos of myself in Bardak, why can I not do that? It should be my decision :book: I think you are mean to advise people about guarding their privacy, but that should be guidance and not a rule


I would also suggest that the Definitions are given somewhere for words like 'trolling'

And, may be consider providing a Russian version of the Rules so the less English fluent speaking Russians can fully understand the rules.





BTW Yozhik, do you have any plans to spend any time with the family this weekend? ;)

ezik
15-09-2012, 11:28
Respecting opinions, with that I mean as much as "agree to disagree", so "respect the RIGHT of others to have their opinions" is probably a better description.

Discrimination - of course I mean the disqualification of groups of people because of beliefs, race, etc. Suggestions on how to put this are welcome.


If "respect opinions" means "agree" or "approve" of them, it can't work. If it means "respect the RIGHT of others to have their opinions" it CAN work.

"discriminate" is insufficiently clear. The way things are going today pedophilia will begin to become legal in ten years (sex with minors) and then it will be illegal to "discriminate" against them. What I'm saying is that the idea that "discriminate" wrongly expresses is a denial that all men are created equal (or that they evolved equal by wild improbable cosmic chance), and THAT is what is right in the word. If there is ever anything that people can and ought to object to, its defenders can cry "discrimination!". So it has to be defined as a perception of personal superiority ("I am better than you because..."). The mistake would be to accuse someone who thinks, say, "swinging" is bad, for society as well as the individual of "discrimination" against "swingers".

ezik
15-09-2012, 11:54
There is a whole set of rules and guidelines on privacy: about posting "real life" info, keeping PMs private, etc. The point of the summary is that in a section called "Privacy", these rules will be explained.

Respecting the privacy of others is an easy one and can be a rule. Respecting your own privacy indeed is more of a guideline, not to share personal info too quickly.

Trolling = posting deliberately provocative content on the forum with the sole intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

Vsyo - hitting the road now (with the family) to get to the dacha! Continue from there... :)


Respect the Privacy

What does that actually mean? What don't you want people to do on this Forum? I think you need to expand that statement (No publishing of other people's photos, e-mail / Skype addresses / FaceBook Links, phone numbers or any other piece of information or data which identifies or assists in the identification of a member, family member or partner etc.

Respect the Privacy (and yourself) What do you mean 'and yourself?'

If I want to post naked photos of myself in Bardak, why can I not do that? It should be my decision :book: I think you are mean to advise people about guarding their privacy, but that should be guidance and not a rule


I would also suggest that the Definitions are given somewhere for words like 'trolling'

And, may be consider providing a Russian version of the Rules so the less English fluent speaking Russians can fully understand the rules.





BTW Yozhik, do you have any plans to spend any time with the family this weekend? ;)

Ibanez
15-09-2012, 13:11
The Sin Bin is an excellent idea :)

I wonder what sins I can enjoy in there! ;) Will BabyGirl be waiting for me there? :D

Maybe Willy's waiting for you there...

MickeyTong
15-09-2012, 15:08
Completely agree that the basic Rules of Engagement should be simple. While reviewing the forum rules, I landed on these basic principles:

- Do not insult other members and refrain from trolling
- Respect the opinions of others
- Do not post material that is discriminatory, inflammatory, and/or illegal
- Mind your language: profanity is only allowed in a special section of the forum, called "Bardak"
- Spamming is NEVER allowed. Advertising is only allowed under strict conditions.
- Buying and selling goods & services (on a NON-commercial basis) is only allowed in the Marketplace (http://www.expat.ru/forum/vbclassified.php)
- Respect the privacy of others (and yourself)

Censorship is something that should only be done if strictly needed to enforce these principles.

Yet, the site is Russian, the forum is, everyone working on the site (voluntarily or paid) is in Russia. So that's a relevant legal framework, too. LEGAL, not political.

Stick with these, Ezhik, they are good.

Of course there will be quibbles about how to define "this" and the precise meaning of "that". But these are forum rules, and they don't need to be a 1500 word document written by a lawyer who charges $10 per word.

I don't think anyone will argue about the adverts/spamming/commercial stuff...but I'm sure that the other things only become an issue after complaints have been made to admin/mods.

This forum operates within a legal framework and enforceable legal sanctions, and the owners/operators/admins are obliged to respect and comply with these. I certainly don't know the specific requirements of these laws, or to what extent they are flexible and can be stretched, bent and opened to interpretation: therefore, I will not presume that it is wrong (or overzealous) of anyone to delete or censor anything I publish here, or to give me a warning/cooling off period to reconsider my statements.

franzewich
15-09-2012, 20:41
The Sin Bin is an excellent idea :)

I wonder what sins I can enjoy in there! ;) Will BabyGirl be waiting for me there? :D

I think ezik will have an eternal fire burning in the sin bin. So don't expect to feel too comfortable there! Unless you like it hot. :)

ezik
24-09-2012, 18:50
Just a little update, otherwise one might think that apart from the Sin Bin, nothing happens.

Once of the suggestions was to automatically close threads older than a certain period. That mechanism is now in place, with the following settings:
- threads are closed 60 days after the last post on it
- sticky threads are NOT included in this mechanism
- if a thread needs re-opening, this can be done by the admin, but as the script closing the thread runs daily, be sure to be quick to post!



Maybe one exception might me made on that, i.e. that the initiator of the "old" thread is the only one who is allowed to pick it up again? Sometimes an interesting new aspect, a turn of events, might come up to justify re-opening it. :question:

ezik
25-09-2012, 23:54
This piece of work is also over with...

The rules start with a Table Of Contents, and the first item is a summary. Each topic in the summary (and table of contents) links to a specific section with those specific rules explained.

Numbering of the rules has changed, as I noticed that sticking to the numbering would make any improvements impossible. However, the old rules are still available (link to them in the new forum rules, http://expat.ru/forum/rules.php).

These, and other changes have been posted in a Sticky thread here: http://expat.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=449989

Tony P
26-09-2012, 00:31
Ezik
Great news coming through the clouds of the last few weeks that has (I know) caused quite a few here to spend more time at "the red place" instead of remaining only here.

Winning them (and more of me!) back remains to be seen how you and the Mods in future deal with disorder, disruption and their own paramaters of enforcing their own non-accountable censorship (and some even hiding that they are even on-line here!).

Dank je vijand alles.

rusmeister
26-09-2012, 02:57
Ezik
Great news coming through the clouds of the last few weeks that has (I know) caused quite a few here to spend more time at "the red place" instead of remaining only here.

Winning them (and more of me!) back remains to be seen how you and the Mods in future deal with disorder, disruption and their own paramaters of enforcing their own non-accountable censorship (and some even hiding that they are even on-line here!).

Dank je vijand alles.
"the red place"??
Qu'est-ce que c'est?

Tony P
26-09-2012, 03:35
Russ
I did try, but my post got scrubbed.

Free speech that ex-pats are used to is a wonderful gift.
But not on expat.ru it again seems, despite Ezik's revised rules!

Leopard and spots comes to mind.

rusmeister
26-09-2012, 08:31
Russ
I did try, but my post got scrubbed.

Free speech that ex-pats are used to is a wonderful gift.
But not on expat.ru it again seems, despite Ezik's revised rules!

Leopard and spots comes to mind.

I'm perfectly willing to discuss speech here, or have posts on it moved to make a new thread if necessary ( though it's almost a rule for me to not start my own threads...).

The general problem of any site, or any system, for that matter, is that it MUST have a de facto philosophy under which rules, policies and what is acceptable or not are established. It's only a problem when the organization (such as public/government schools) try to pretend that they do not have such a philosophy, that questions about what is true have nothing to do with them, which is what the American public education system (and most others) from pre-school to PhD absolutely does.

Any pluralist system has the hypocritical problem of trying to claim enlightenment and tolerance of all beliefs, or the beliefs of all, while in practice refusing to tolerate ones that insist that some views cannot be tolerated.

I asked, at the very beginning of my sojourn here, whether one could discuss religion and worldview and its impact on the various aspects of life. I was told 'welcome', and so began posting here. Despite the opinions of some, I do try hard to stick to secular understandings in defending what I believe. But I wouldn't want to have to worry about a mod holding a worldview that denies my own to exclude mine because of his. I would only feel that was fair if the site declared that its worldview and said that it would not tolerate mine. (I think that would be a huge and radical step to exclude traditional Christian views, the very environment in which this kind of pluralism appeared in the first place. I do not say this place does that; I would have already left if it did. I'm no troll and don't hang around where I'm genuinely not wanted by the community as a whole - or by a consensus of mods, which is for practical purposes the same thing (granted at there will always be a section hostile to my worldview and not taking that as my bellwether). )

As to the other site referred to, there's always PMs. It's not hard to see why this site would not encourage advertisement of competitors, and that it allows PMs at least is to its credit. I don't have time for any other sites now anyway, and don't foresee spare time in the near future. I was just honestly curious.

ezik
26-09-2012, 09:51
The rules have been revised, but site referrals are still not allowed. Section D, rule #27. Not a new rule, it was rule #18 in the old ones and has not changed. Moreover, it is a rule you will find on most forums.

Whether such a post should be deleted or edited is another question, which I will discuss with the mod team.



Russ
I did try, but my post got scrubbed.

Free speech that ex-pats are used to is a wonderful gift.
But not on expat.ru it again seems, despite Ezik's revised rules!

Leopard and spots comes to mind.

ezik
26-09-2012, 11:01
The fact that a forum is moderated logically means that there is censorship. Not allowing insults is censorship, so is deleting spam and moving a thread from the wrong folder to the appropriate folder.

The point that some moderator decisions should come with more explanation has been made already and is part of a work in progress. I never said we're finished now. The guidelines for moderators are out-dated to start with, so I'd say, in terms of accountability, the ball is in my court. That's also why I am around answering questions (on the forum and in PMs).

As for that other site: we're not in competition with them.


Ezik
Great news coming through the clouds of the last few weeks that has (I know) caused quite a few here to spend more time at "the red place" instead of remaining only here.

Winning them (and more of me!) back remains to be seen how you and the Mods in future deal with disorder, disruption and their own paramaters of enforcing their own non-accountable censorship (and some even hiding that they are even on-line here!).

Dank je vijand alles.