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GalinaP
26-08-2012, 11:21
If you could only have one of these in your partner, which would you go for?

Jas
26-08-2012, 11:39
I already got the first two being the site's only official hottie and genius, but the last one is the one I really want now- and this is why I am writing novels and going through all this anguish.

TolkoRaz
26-08-2012, 11:50
If you could only have one of these in your partner, which would you go for?

That's a very difficult question only being allowed one of the above 'qualities'!


I will have to ponder and shall revert once my selection has been made! :10310: :)

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 12:13
That's a very difficult question only being allowed one of the above 'qualities'!


I will have to ponder and shall revert once my selection has been made! :10310: :)

Finding a way out where doesn't seem to be one is one of the Russian qualities to emulate.

mds45
26-08-2012, 12:18
I would say an Intelligent person can become financially stable but if you are not sexually compatable nothing will save you !

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 12:22
I would say an Intelligent person can become financially stable but if you are not sexually compatable nothing will save you !

Living on sex alone could be a strain eough.

mds45
26-08-2012, 12:27
Living on sex alone could be a strain eough.

Works for me :)

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 12:37
Works for me :)

Great for you! Does it say about your inexhaustible patience supplies, extreme mind generousity or something else?

TolkoRaz
26-08-2012, 12:51
I think that it has to be Sexual Qualities followed by Intelligence; Financial aspects are irrelevant!

If I am not attracted sexually to my victim, then it really does not mater how intelligent or dim that person is - but it it would be nice if they were intelligent and, at least, understood and laughed at a few of my jokes! ;)

The start point for most relationships is physical attractiveness. After someone in a crowd has caught my eye, I then begin to see and learn about their other qualities, or lack of them.

But, is there a difference between 'Sexuality' and Physical attractiveness' - I am sure that could be debated for decades! ;)

TolkoRaz
26-08-2012, 12:53
I already got the first two being the site's only official hottie and genius, but the last one is the one I really want now- and this is why I am writing novels and going through all this anguish.

Jas, Do you actually believe that?

Potty
26-08-2012, 12:57
If you could only have one of these in your partner, which would you go for?

intelligence. It is inspiring.

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 12:59
But, is there a difference between 'Sexuality' and Physical attractiveness' - I am sure that could be debated for decades! ;)

Similarlily to beauty in the eye of the beholder, sexuality is finely tuned to the one's tastes. A slightest turn of the head can be very sexual for you whereas nude pictures can very well leave you indifferent.
But if you do find somebody sexual, to me it automatically means their physical attractiveness for you. They must be, essentially, the same, just vary greatly for the beholders.

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:02
intelligence. It is inspiring.

Hard to uphold sex abstinence in this case, or you'd have to always keep in mind the clever things they said when trying to get aroused.

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:04
Jas, Do you actually believe that?

This is the kind of self-confidence I could envy.

Lost in moscow
26-08-2012, 13:08
If to pick only one.
Sexuality - you can always teach her stuff and will become intelligent which could lead to financial stability, but sexuality can't really be taught...

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:12
If to pick only one.
Sexuality - you can always teach her stuff and will become intelligent which could lead to financial stability, but sexuality can't really be taught...

Risky business, could lead to endless frustration...

TolkoRaz
26-08-2012, 13:13
Can you coach somebody to be intelligent?

I suspect not!

Potty
26-08-2012, 13:15
uphold sex abstinence in this case,.
so if I pick intelligence I will get no sex at all? :eek:

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:16
so if I pick intelligence I will get no sex at all? :eek:

I'm afraid of self-satisfying kind only. :D

Lost in moscow
26-08-2012, 13:19
Risky business, could lead to endless frustration...

It could, but unless your ready to start having multiple partners, lack of sex is number one reason for cheating.


Can you coach somebody to be intelligent?

I suspect not!

Sure, someone who spent 18 years studding will be considered intelligent compared to someone who never went to school.

Or are you talking about the "IQ" level. That, your born with, and can only destroy with alcohol :D

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:19
One of my best friend's favourite sayings is that the most sexual body part in men for her is their brains. Hard to disagree.

Potty
26-08-2012, 13:20
I'm afraid of self-satisfying kind only. :D

Than it is not a partner. It is a friend. Then yes, intelligence. It's inspiring. :D

Potty
26-08-2012, 13:21
lack of sex is number one reason for cheating.


No, boy. Number 1 for cheating is that the cheater is an a**hole.

Potty
26-08-2012, 13:24
Sure, someone who spent 18 years studding will be considered intelligent compared to someone who never went to school.

or 18 years in kindergarden

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:24
It could, but unless your ready to start having multiple partners, lack of sex is number one reason for cheating.


Lack of sex is many a Russian women perpetual condition.

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:30
Than it is not a partner. It is a friend. :D

Funnily, makes me think of a progression with my ex: sexual partners - friends - business partners - ex-sexual partners. Result as of now: business partners/friends. His IQ is not terribly high. Which is probably what accounts for the loss of sex appeal.

Lost in moscow
26-08-2012, 13:33
No, boy. Number 1 for cheating is that the cheater is an a**hole.

that's your opinion.


or 18 years in kindergarden

Are you that low that your going to continue personally attacking me? Go for it, your horrible at trolling.


One of my best friend's favourite sayings is that the most sexual body part in men for her is their brains. Hard to disagree.

His opinion again :)

TolkoRaz
26-08-2012, 13:34
Sure, someone who spent 18 years studding will be considered intelligent compared to someone who never went to school.


Knowledge and Intelligence are different, I think :book:


PS. Like most men, I would have loved to have spent 18 years 'studding'! ;)

Lost in moscow
26-08-2012, 13:37
Here are 10 of the most common reasons women cheat on their husbands:

1. Revenge
If a man cheats on his wife, sometimes the woman will return the favor: by cheating on her husband to make sure he knows how she felt when he betrayed her.
2. For The Thrill
Sometimes a woman cheats because she can… And she thinks she will get away with it. Usually, however, if a woman believes her marriage has lost it’s ‘spark’ she will try to talk to her husband first, and the affair is a last-ditch effort to seek excitement.
3. Ego
Woman love to feel loved. If a wife believes her husband isn’t into her, or no longer finds her attractive / sexy / beautiful… She will seek out someone who does: a new man. It’s important for every husband to remind his wife that she’s still the woman of his dreams.
4. The Love is Lost
A long-term relationship is not easy to maintain. However, it is important to remember that as your love grows and changes over time, you and your wife must keep that ‘love connection.’ A woman who doesn’t feel that intimacy with her husband might seek it elsewhere.
5. She Wants to Get Caught
Sometimes breaking up is hard to do — especially if there are kids and lots of years of marriage involved. If a woman is scared to verbally let her husband know she wants a divorce, she might express herself nonverbally: through an affair.
6. Boring Sex Life
Just like men, women like to be excited and intrigued in the bedroom. If your wife is bored by your sex life, she might look to an outside source to spice things up. Make sure you don’t let your bedroom become just a space for sleeping.
7. Loneliness
Remember when you two did everything together? When you couldn’t wait to get home from work to spend time with your wife? So does she. If things have changed and you find Monday Night Football interesting more often than a potential date night with your wife, don’t be surprised if she’s open to a man who wants to enjoy time with her.
8. She’s Reliving Her Past
Men are not the only ones who go through a mid-life crisis. Instead of buying a sports car, sometimes women will rekindle a relationship with an old flame to remind themselves of the vim and vigor of their youth.
9. Near-Death Experience
If a woman goes through a near-death experience, such as a cancer battle or car accident, it might force her to reexamine her life and priorities. Make sure you stay on top of the list by supporting her through her tough time.
10. Attention
Women love attention just as much as men. If your wife thinks you are taking her for granted or no longer as attentive as you once used to be, she might be more willing to fall under the spell of a man who is willing to shower her with time and attention.
https://www.foresightlegal.com/2011/09/09/10-most-common-reasons-women-cheat/

Here are the top ten reasons why men cheat:

1. Because they had the option.
The old saying “men are only as faithful as their options” can sometimes ring true. Men don’t get offered sex as often as women so when the opportunity does arise, it can be very difficult for them to turn it down.
2. It boosts their ego.
Sometimes men no longer feel like they are attractive to the opposite sex and when a woman shows some interest, not only does a man react, he may allow her to stroke his ego and more. There is nothing like the thrill of the chase to men on the hunt. When they are finally rewarded for their efforts, their egos swell even larger.
3. You grow apart.
Maybe the two of you didn’t have as much in common as you thought. He’s met a woman who has more in common with him who loves football or plays golf. He may check out if he is compatible with her under the sheets also.
4. You argue a lot.
Men will sometimes cheat to get away from an overly critical or argumentative partner. Who wants to be around someone who is constantly on them about something.
5. They have fallen out of love.
Sometimes men become so comfortable in a relationship, they don’t know how to get out. They may be staying in the relationship because of children or financial reasons. However, they feel like they are missing out on love and may seek it out elsewhere. In their mind, this is as close to win-win as they can get.
6. Your sex life stinks.
If a man has a disinterested partner or isn’t getting enough sex to fulfill him, there is a good chance he will have an affair. Just because you have a husband or boyfriend, does not mean you can stop trying. It takes a little bit of effort to keep your sex life from becoming boring and non-existent. Some men cheat because they want to try new sexual things that their current partner will not try.
7. To get revenge.
A man will sometimes cheat if he finds out his partner was cheating on him. How else is he supposed to heal those hurt feelings of his but through good old-fashioned sex?
8. It’s new, different and exciting.
Some men get tired of having steak for dinner every night and want to try a hamburger. The same goes for sex with a woman. That’s why men don’t necessarily always cheat with women who are more attractive than their partners.
9. To see if they can get away with it.
If a man has the attitude of “what she doesn’t know, won’t hurt her,” he may cheat to see if he is sneaky and smart enough to get away with it. However, with all the advancement in surveillance spy ware, getting caught has now become easier than ever.
10. Because you have allowed it in the past.
If you have forgiven a cheating man a couple of times, they are more than likely going to cheat again because they already know if they plead enough, you will forgive them.
Reasons why men cheat can be more complex than the above list or even be a combination of a few different reasons. Nevertheless, no reason is good enough reason to lie and be dishonest. After all, Karma can be a bitch.

http://www.divinecaroline.com/22078/44068-ten-reasons-men-cheat/2

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:38
His opinion again :)

Agree with your disagreement. Her opinion, as a woman, is probably based on seeking something to look up to in men. But then again, over-superior intelligence can overwhelm.

Potty
26-08-2012, 13:40
Are you that low that your going to continue personally attacking me? Go for it, your horrible at trolling.

I am sharing my beliefs. I am entitled to.

Lost in moscow
26-08-2012, 13:42
I am sharing my beliefs. I am entitled to.

ok, I spent 18 years in kindergarten, right. Your so smart. I'm sooo dumb.

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:44
Knowledge and Intelligence are different, I think :book:

Absolutely, and are also different from life wisdom.

PS. Like most men, I would have loved to have spent 18 years 'studding'! ;)

Why am I not even remotely surprised? :fudd:

Potty
26-08-2012, 13:45
Here are 10 of the most common reasons women cheat on their husbands:

who made it? you? Did you win 1st place at the Miami Children festival for it?

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:47
Here are 10 of the most common reasons women cheat on their husbands:
http://www.divinecaroline.com/22078/44068-ten-reasons-men-cheat/2

No< Lost, the main reason for women cheating is their lack of intelligence or life wisdom, or both. Otherwise, they just break up.

Lost in moscow
26-08-2012, 13:49
who made it? you? Did you win 1st place at the Miami Children festival for it?

I fail to see the connection, I linked the site who made the list for people who needed the source of the post...but where is the second part coming from?

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 13:58
No< Lost, the main reason for women cheating is their lack of intelligence or life wisdom, or both. Otherwise, they just break up.

I have another list on my mind, of ten main emotional needs partners typically look for being fulfilled in a relationship. Can you come up with yours off the top of your head? (Can be fewer than ten, just something you can think of).

Lost in moscow
26-08-2012, 14:06
I have another list on my mind, of ten main emotional needs partners typically look for being fulfilled in a relationship. Can you come up with yours off the top of your head? (Can be fewer than ten, just something you can think of).

1. Knowing you can count on them and will never betray you
2. Your secrets safe with them, shoulder to lean on.
3. Make you feel wanted, needed.
4. By your side through thick and thin.
5. Trust you even when the odds look bad. (guess that can go with number 4)
7. And constantly tells you that you DO NOT NEED TO PUT makeup on, stop hiding the true beauty you fell in love with! :)

There is more, just can't recall it right this moment

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 14:09
Of course, very similar to what people usually want:

- sexual fulfillment
- conversation
-recreational activities
- physical attraction
- family commitment
- financial security
- adoration
- honesty/openness
-domestic support
- affection
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 14:11
1. Knowing you can count on them and will never betray you
2. Your secrets safe with them, shoulder to lean on.
3. Make you feel wanted, needed.
4. By your side through thick and thin.
5. Trust you even when the odds look bad. (guess that can go with number 4)
7. And constantly tells you that you DO NOT NEED TO PUT makeup on, stop hiding the true beauty you fell in love with! :)

There is more, just can't recall it right this moment

And strange really, how it happens when, everybody wanting more or less the same, people turn bitter/disappointed with time. Ego?

Jas
26-08-2012, 14:12
I have another list on my mind, of ten main emotional needs partners typically look for being fulfilled in a relationship. Can you come up with yours off the top of your head? (Can be fewer than ten, just something you can think of).


1) Partner always must make you feel good about youreself.
2) P must listen to you
3) P must be kind and considerate
4) P must never show you up by saying stupid stuff or fighting or drunk or drugs
5) P must be able to relate to ure wants and needs
6) P must never get you into trouble like with the police (like if they ask u to rob from a store).
7) P must be respecftul I think
8) P must understand all ure likes and dislikes also
9) P must share ure interests like if its novels, music, whatever
10) P must have a sense of humor
11) P must be generous
12) P must not make hassles or say no on simple things P can do- if they want
13) P must understand ure desires of course and be ready to please
14) P must be devoted if ure sick or tired or worried
15) P must understand ure priorities and be flexible
16) P must never be angry or a petty person
17) P must be tidy in the house and not smoke or anything also
18) P must be stimulating mentally
19) P must be never one to stand in the way of ure ambitions
20) P must be someone who can encourage you in all things also
21) P must have no irritating habits that make you crazy
22) If P does something rong, they will learn from it and not make again
23) P must be loyal
24) P must never be jealous
25) P must not be nosy
26) P never must ignore you
27) P always must be proud of you
28) P never must argue with you- especially in public
29) P never must try to limit ure freedom
30) P must be a constant source of love, warmth, and affection

This is all what I think

MashaSashina
26-08-2012, 21:10
If you could only have one of these in your partner, which would you go for?
Can i have 3 different partners? Sexy one to spent the nights with, intelligent one for conversation and financially stable one for business?
I read once on a forum that sexuality is 70% of success (for men) and i tend to agree. I met some intelligent men, but i don't remember 2-nd date happened in any of those cases. But at least twice i totally crashed into guys as i understand now for their sexuality only. Though they were smart as well. But it didn't matter.

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 21:30
Can i have 3 different partners? .

Can we all, please? The only problem then would be going to bed with all three to make sure they stay. Exhausting.:D

MashaSashina
26-08-2012, 21:43
Nononooooo! i meant to sleep with one of them only! :)))

mds45
26-08-2012, 21:44
Nononooooo! i meant to sleep with one of them only! :)))

aw how dull - this was just getting interesting :)

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 21:45
Nononooooo! i meant to sleep with one of them only! :)))

Well, I'm afraid the male Forum members expressing themselves in this thread make it clear that there's no such option!

GalinaP
26-08-2012, 21:48
aw how dull - this was just getting interesting :)

See, Masha? Told you!

MashaSashina
26-08-2012, 22:12
aw how dull - this was just getting interesting :)
I'm not sure sleeping with a provider of financial stability is interesting.. :(

yakspeare
26-08-2012, 22:23
Well i can only offer one of the three but somehow i expect to find a partner that offers more than i can. The hypocrisy of life :)

Jas
26-08-2012, 22:41
Well i can only offer one of the three

Which one?

yakspeare
26-08-2012, 22:52
Which one?

Well I look like Shrek and I am a humble Teacher and Medical student..so you work it out :P

Jas
26-08-2012, 23:09
Well I look like Shrek and I am a humble Teacher and Medical student..so you work it out :P

You look cool to me and Shrek won his princess and she was happier than before even. Medical student is a guarentee of being really smart (I couldn't do it for example even).
Money?
I just live on kasha really. It would come later. Money is best earned through sharing and saving together- which is the opposite of Pakistani tradition- but more genuine I think.

penka
27-08-2012, 00:50
I miss something in this multiple choice quiz. Is that given or assumed that people in question actually like and respect each other? Feel comfortable together? Understand and accept each other?

And:

Which kind of intelligence do we speak? Moron? Imbecile? Mentally impaired? Academician? Street wise?

Financial security? To make ends meet? bring up a family? Shop at Graff at leisure?

Sex: satisfy the basic needs? Respond to secret desires? Develop together? Buy a hooker or make love to a person you genuinly like?

I am sorry, but I am, indeed at loss here.

GalinaP
27-08-2012, 00:51
Well I look like Shrek and I am a humble Teacher and Medical student..so you work it out :P

Your extended philosophical contributions to the Forum make it obvious. I wish I had more free time to just sit down and go through them closely.

GalinaP
27-08-2012, 00:53
I miss something in this multiple choice quiz. Is that given or assumed that people in question actually like and respect each other? Feel comfortable together? Understand and accept each other?

And:

Which kind of intelligence do we speak? Moron? Imbecile? Mentally impaired? Academician? Street wise?

Financial security? To make ends meet? bring up a family? Shop at Graff at leisure?

Sex: satisfy the basic needs? Respond to secret desires? Develop together? Buy a hooker or make love to a person you genuinly like?

I am sorry, but I am, indeed at loss here.

Precisely, it was the whole point. To make people feel at loss when answering the original question and start talking about something else.

GalinaP
27-08-2012, 01:10
Well i can only offer one of the three but somehow i expect to find a partner that offers more than i can. The hypocrisy of life :)

But this is the way of complementing each other in a relationship, because we tend to focus more on something we lack than what we've got in abundance, and in a balanced relationship another partner would be sure to get more of yours. The question is what is the statistical likelihood of such relationships, and doesn't it seem too idyllic?

bydand
27-08-2012, 02:00
Precisely, it was the whole point. To make people feel at loss when answering the original question and start talking about something else.

That's why I didn't read all the posts. The original question was loaded, and insipid. You omitted a fourth option; Caring and Loving.

Given your original question (no time restraints stipulated),I would say :

Sexuality, in the morning, when my hormones and body are most attuned to that pleasure.
Intelligence, in the daytime, when prioritizing, and getting positive results are needed.
Financial security, in the evening, when she comes home with the bacon, so I don't have to worry about breakfast.

All of that doesn't matter if we don't, at least, care about or love each other.

Otherwise, it might as well be a business deal.

Oh, and without intelligence, sexuality, nor personal financial security would be possible. A rock can just be. A happy rock without nausea, nonetheless.:drink:

Rusmeister, IMHO could teach us all something about caring and loving. I am truly surprised at his tolerance and perseverance here.

GalinaP
27-08-2012, 09:50
That's why I didn't read all the posts. The original question was loaded, and insipid. You omitted a fourth option; Caring and Loving.

Given your original question (no time restraints stipulated),I would say :

Sexuality, in the morning, when my hormones and body are most attuned to that pleasure.
Intelligence, in the daytime, when prioritizing, and getting positive results are needed.
Financial security, in the evening, when she comes home with the bacon, so I don't have to worry about breakfast.

All of that doesn't matter if we don't, at least, care about or love each other.

Otherwise, it might as well be a business deal.

Oh, and without intelligence, sexuality, nor personal financial security would be possible. A rock can just be. A happy rock without nausea, nonetheless.:drink:

Rusmeister, IMHO could teach us all something about caring and loving. I am truly surprised at his tolerance and perseverance here.

Sorry if my question hurt your feelings, inadvertently. But sometimes stupid questions reveal something that nothing else could. For instance, when in the evening I finally asked my boyfriend about the choice between the three, his answer showed his feelings for me in a nice and clear way, it suddenly cut right throught all the BS. So it was still of use, but again, sorry, because stupid questions practically cry for scorn and ridicule, which I finally got. :bash:

TolkoRaz
27-08-2012, 11:17
GalinaP, What was his answer and what do you think the answer should be?

GalinaP
27-08-2012, 11:26
GalinaP, What was his answer and what do you think the answer should be?

He wanted money, money and money only. He said my intelligence is burden on him as it is. What I would gladly accept is sexuality, at least makes you feel like a woman, not a cash dispenser.

rusmeister
27-08-2012, 11:51
That's why I didn't read all the posts. The original question was loaded, and insipid. You omitted a fourth option; Caring and Loving.

Given your original question (no time restraints stipulated),I would say :

Sexuality, in the morning, when my hormones and body are most attuned to that pleasure.
Intelligence, in the daytime, when prioritizing, and getting positive results are needed.
Financial security, in the evening, when she comes home with the bacon, so I don't have to worry about breakfast.

All of that doesn't matter if we don't, at least, care about or love each other.

Otherwise, it might as well be a business deal.

Oh, and without intelligence, sexuality, nor personal financial security would be possible. A rock can just be. A happy rock without nausea, nonetheless.:drink:

Rusmeister, IMHO could teach us all something about caring and loving. I am truly surprised at his tolerance and perseverance here.

Thanks much, bydand,
I admit that I am still learning to love people I disagree with and make mistakes in charity (agape) from time to time.

Also, a lot of people here are where I was. I believed those things. I said those slogans and catchwords of "discrimination", "tolerance", etc. I thought it didn't matter what you believe. So while some people don't want to hear about what convinced me those catch phrases are rhetorical propaganda and substitutes for thought, and just keep repeating them, I feel sympathy for people who are still there. I was that person. And how I see how they are taught to think that way.

Not everybody is, of course. But it's a pretty large percentage of the general population, and it's reflected here at expat. But there's a limit to how much you can hate what you once believed, and it is actually not so hard to sympathize with people who still do accept relativist pluralism, even though they usually can't name or define it.

And love - yes, if only we can understand that love must ultimately be selfless, must be care for the other without thinking "What's in it for me?"
You've hit the nail on the head. The other things mean nothing without that understanding of love. That, and a commitment that is a vow for life, and not just "until we get tired of each other..." so that two grandparents can see their own children to adulthood and greet their natural grandchildren at a common address as a united family.

rusmeister
27-08-2012, 11:52
He wanted money, money and money only. He said my intelligence is burden on him as it is. What I would gladly accept is sexuality, at least makes you feel like a woman, not a cash dispenser.

What does it feel like when the sexy man, the intellectual or the banker leaves you at 40 with two or three kids to raise on your own?

bydand
27-08-2012, 12:09
Sorry if my question hurt your feelings, inadvertently. But sometimes stupid questions reveal something that nothing else could. For instance, when in the evening I finally asked my boyfriend about the choice between the three, his answer showed his feelings for me in a nice and clear way, it suddenly cut right throught all the BS. So it was still of use, but again, sorry, because stupid questions practically cry for scorn and ridicule, which I finally got. :bash:

My feelings were not hurt, and I did not say the question was stupid.

Indeed it made me think. I didn't respond until I saw
Originally Posted by GalinaP
Precisely, it was the whole point. To make people feel at loss when answering the original question and start talking about something else.

I thought of something else...

TolkoRaz
27-08-2012, 12:22
He wanted money, money and money only. He said my intelligence is burden on him as it is. What I would gladly accept is sexuality, at least makes you feel like a woman, not a cash dispenser.

That is interesting as many men feel that they are Cash Dispensers! ;)

MickeyTong
27-08-2012, 16:02
http://i42.tinypic.com/20uwjde.jpg

GalinaP
27-08-2012, 16:33
What does it feel like when the sexy man, the intellectual or the banker leaves you at 40 with two or three kids to raise on your own?

What happens is life goes on, of course. But I never stated what I would go for, did I? (As far as my choice of a man is concerned)

GalinaP
27-08-2012, 16:36
That is interesting as many men feel that they are Cash Dispensers! ;)

Russian ways go by unpredictable paths sometimes!

GalinaP
27-08-2012, 19:27
What does it feel like when the sexy man, the intellectual or the banker leaves you at 40 with two or three kids to raise on your own?

At the same time, I would be sure to reflect on my folly and try to learn my lesson.

rusmeister
27-08-2012, 19:48
At the same time, I would be sure to reflect on my folly and try to learn my lesson.

Well, when there are kids involved, they pay for the lesson as well. They wind up growing up without a father.

What's to prevent that, if marriage is seen to be a contract that can be broken when the going gets rough? Anybody can talk about being together forever when things are easy, when you young, in love, married for just a couple of years. But after twenty or thirty, when you've thrown the pots and pans at each other, one of you (or both) has cheated on the other, and the pain of anger from your spouse digs into you and you just want to go away, what's to hold you together? What's to turn you into the grandfather and grandmother that survived that and learned to love each other anyway, so you can welcome your children and grandchildren to Thanksgiving together, instead of with 2nd, 3rd or whatever husbands and wives (or "partners"?) at separate celebrations and holidays (if you don't just wind up a lonely old man or woman)?

Only the old, traditional understanding of marriage can manage that. The difficult path of learning to keep a vow once made, for life, even when it's REALLY hard. No human arrangement will ever be perfect as long as humans are Fallen and we are centered on ourselves, but the abandonment of traditional marriage pretty much guarantees broken homes, broken people and children, and a lonely old age. Let alone social chaos.

GalinaP
27-08-2012, 22:20
Well, when there are kids involved, they pay for the lesson as well. They wind up growing up without a father.

What's to prevent that, if marriage is seen to be a contract that can be broken when the going gets rough? Anybody can talk about being together forever when things are easy, when you young, in love, married for just a couple of years. But after twenty or thirty, when you've thrown the pots and pans at each other, one of you (or both) has cheated on the other, and the pain of anger from your spouse digs into you and you just want to go away, what's to hold you together? What's to turn you into the grandfather and grandmother that survived that and learned to love each other anyway, so you can welcome your children and grandchildren to Thanksgiving together, instead of with 2nd, 3rd or whatever husbands and wives (or "partners"?) at separate celebrations and holidays (if you don't just wind up a lonely old man or woman)?

Only the old, traditional understanding of marriage can manage that. The difficult path of learning to keep a vow once made, for life, even when it's REALLY hard. No human arrangement will ever be perfect as long as humans are Fallen and we are centered on ourselves, but the abandonment of traditional marriage pretty much guarantees broken homes, broken people and children, and a lonely old age. Let alone social chaos.

Truest words about true marriage.

martpark
28-08-2012, 00:22
Well, when there are kids involved, they pay for the lesson as well. They wind up growing up without a father.

Only the old, traditional understanding of marriage can manage that. The difficult path of learning to keep a vow once made, for life, even when it's REALLY hard. No human arrangement will ever be perfect as long as humans are Fallen and we are centered on ourselves, but the abandonment of traditional marriage pretty much guarantees broken homes, broken people and children, and a lonely old age. Let alone social chaos.

"No human arrangement will ever be perfect"

That is the reason why people have the right to separate and divorce. A person should not stay with an abusive spouse nor let their children grow up in a culture of abuse. It is incredibly naive to pretend that is all problems can be resolved in a relationship.
They can not and one's physical, mental or spiritual health is in danger then that person has to make adult decisions, which include leaving the relationship, and not relying on a person or a group of people who have never experienced what has occurred to determine what is best for the situation.

This traditional marriage thing is bunk. How were Joseph and Mary married exactly? Was everyone in the 20th Century married in the same way? And Jesus? Marriage is essential for everyone except the one we are supposed to follow?
Tell us about the morality of the marriage of CS Lewis. He married a woman more than 20 years older than he, had sex with her and called her mother. Social chaos or moral turpitude or a moral beacon?

So, please, ignore the propaganda and look at the way humans interact. Some stay together, others don't. There was never an ideal time in human history. We live and learn with what has happened and is happening now. Anyone who tells you differently has a agenda to propagate, that usually means controlling someone else, not themselves of course.

rusmeister
28-08-2012, 03:28
"No human arrangement will ever be perfect"

That is the reason why people have the right to separate and divorce. A person should not stay with an abusive spouse nor let their children grow up in a culture of abuse. It is incredibly naive to pretend that is all problems can be resolved in a relationship.
They can not and one's physical, mental or spiritual health is in danger then that person has to make adult decisions, which include leaving the relationship, and not relying on a person or a group of people who have never experienced what has occurred to determine what is best for the situation.

This traditional marriage thing is bunk. How were Joseph and Mary married exactly? Was everyone in the 20th Century married in the same way? And Jesus? Marriage is essential for everyone except the one we are supposed to follow?
Tell us about the morality of the marriage of CS Lewis. He married a woman more than 20 years older than he, had sex with her and called her mother. Social chaos or moral turpitude or a moral beacon?

So, please, ignore the propaganda and look at the way humans interact. Some stay together, others don't. There was never an ideal time in human history. We live and learn with what has happened and is happening now. Anyone who tells you differently has a agenda to propagate, that usually means controlling someone else, not themselves of course.

Mart, I feel like you read my posts through crooked glasses.
I never said or pretended that all problems can be solved in a relatipnship (what a nebulous concept! - YOU and I have a relationship, however tenuous), let alone a marriage.
I think I rather said that holding a marriage for life is not easy - hard, in fact, in our time when divorce IS so easy and people depend on contracts, not their word - sometimes very hard.

... The difficult path of learning to keep a vow once made, for life, even when it's REALLY hard.
Your eyes seem to have glazed over that.

Next, I am speaking about the general rule, not the extreme exception. There is an entire gamut of human behavior and understandings of what exactly is abuse. I will certainly agree with you on many, but not all of them. We admit that in extreme cases, a couple might need to be separated, though not in as many cases as you seem to think.
But in speaking of the general rule, I am not talking about "a person or a group of people who have never experienced what has occurred", etc, but of an understanding of what the vow IS, which does not concern itself about "what might occur" any more than a legal point in a contract will care about the human reason why you broke it.

How marriage is performed is determined by the local culture. Bt traditional marriage, certainly from the beginnings of the domination of the Christian Church to the twentieth century, it was always a vow between one man and one woman to stay together or life. Have we already forgotten even the formulations in English?: "For better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer..." - emphasizing the general lack of exceptions.

Nor did I ever say "Everyone must marry!" where did you draw that from? You CAN draw, "Everyone who wants to join in one flesh with a (member of the opposite sex) must marry. But celibacy is an alternative that is actually encouraged. Single people are as much a part of Christian tradition as married people, and monasticism is one of the highest callings - rather hard one, at that. That Jesus was not married is entirely irrelevant. So were most of the Desert fathers of the Church and any number of saints.

Whatever Lewis is alleged (in the case you refer to, unproven, but eagerly asserted by people who rush to uncover the sordid with glee) to have done, the vital fact is that it was before his conversion to faith. You might as well point to St Mary of Egypt's 17-odd years screwing any man that moved, which is much more proven, because she confessed it. Sure, she was guilty of sin. All humans are. The important thing is that she repented and came to hate what she had once enjoyed, which is what you are telling us we should do in the allegation you refer to. You are right. And he did repent. And even if true, he repaid many times over for decades to follow BECAUSE he repented and adopted the right attitude.

Your last paragraph,which tells me to look at what humans do (in the indicative mood) which I certainly have, including at myself - I have my own sins under my belt, so I'm not just a theoretician - tells me nothing about what humans OUGHT to do, let alone how to attain the ideal, which we should WANT to attain, if we are sane.
It seems that you are basically saying, "Forget about the ideal; don't try to attain it." I do not speak about controlling others at all, but about exhorting them to do what should be done if you sanely want to attain the ideal.

Crooked glasses.

BabyFirefly
28-08-2012, 05:19
Initially I thought intelligence, but well, there's no romance (and love) if you become nauseous every time the person gets naked, so, sexuality, then intelligence, then financial stability.

rusmeister
28-08-2012, 08:26
Initially I thought intelligence, but well, there's no romance (and love) if you become nauseous every time the person gets naked, so, sexuality, then intelligence, then financial stability.

Romantic feelings can come and go, amd are more notorious for going.

What of you find yourself pregnant? Isn't having a reliable, trustworthy man who will stand by you important? One who will keep his promises, especially the one to be faithful to you? That he stick with you through the long period of raising the child to adulthood? Isn't that more important than simply being attractive, or even romantic?

mds45
28-08-2012, 09:00
rus you talk about crooked glasses and very often claim people are changing/twisting your words, I ask you this - don't you think the reason could be that your writing style is unique and very difficult to understand.

I sometimes wonder if it's a ploy from you to hide behind, I also think that perhaps you have studied Mr Chesterton to much and have adopted his late Victorian style.

I would be nice to see the real rus behind the syntax, and perhaps then you could communicate with people with out having to constantly accuse them of not understanding you.

I can imagine you reading this and launching into defence, before you do just pause for a minute and think, ask yourself could I possibly be right? or is there some truth in this . bear in mind how many people have commented on you writing style. Perhaps Mr Chesterton has been so ingrained in you that you cannot change, that would be a shame because you do make some vailid points - I think! can't always tell -

Inola
28-08-2012, 12:29
rus you talk about crooked glasses and very often claim people are changing/twisting your words, I ask you this - don't you think the reason could be that your writing style is unique and very difficult to understand.

I sometimes wonder if it's a ploy from you to hide behind, I also think that perhaps you have studied Mr Chesterton to much and have adopted his late Victorian style.

I would be nice to see the real rus behind the syntax, and perhaps then you could communicate with people with out having to constantly accuse them of not understanding you.

I can imagine you reading this and launching into defence, before you do just pause for a minute and think, ask yourself could I possibly be right? or is there some truth in this . bear in mind how many people have commented on you writing style. Perhaps Mr Chesterton has been so ingrained in you that you cannot change, that would be a shame because you do make some vailid points - I think! can't always tell -

I mostly enjoy reading Rus's posts for this same reason - different style and something to think about (pretty often)... but I agree with you -sadly Rus quite often uses this favorite trick of his - "define the term" or " you are not intelligent enough to procees what I write" - and very far-fetched comparisons also.. :) but once you got used to them it becomes pretty obvious when the post is worth spending time on it...

RichardB
28-08-2012, 12:38
I mostly enjoy reading Rus's posts for this same reason - different style and something to think about (pretty often)... but I agree with you -sadly Rus quite often uses this favorite trick of his - "define the term" or " you are not intelligent enough to procees what I write" - and very far-fetched comparisons also.. :) but once you got used to them it becomes pretty obvious when the post is worth spending time on it...

I have to whole-heartedly agree. Rus makes some good points but the writing style is like wading through mental treacle - after a while you simply give up trying to fathom what he's saying and move on.

yakspeare
28-08-2012, 12:43
I have to whole-heartedly agree. Rus makes some good points but the writing style is like wading through mental treacle - after a while you simply give up trying to fathom what he's saying and move on.

mental treacle..what a great phrase!

Inola
28-08-2012, 12:45
mental treacle..what a great phrase!

and short! :D

rusmeister
28-08-2012, 17:48
rus you talk about crooked glasses and very often claim people are changing/twisting your words, I ask you this - don't you think the reason could be that your writing style is unique and very difficult to understand.

I sometimes wonder if it's a ploy from you to hide behind, I also think that perhaps you have studied Mr Chesterton to much and have adopted his late Victorian style.

I would be nice to see the real rus behind the syntax, and perhaps then you could communicate with people with out having to constantly accuse them of not understanding you.

I can imagine you reading this and launching into defence, before you do just pause for a minute and think, ask yourself could I possibly be right? or is there some truth in this . bear in mind how many people have commented on you writing style. Perhaps Mr Chesterton has been so ingrained in you that you cannot change, that would be a shame because you do make some vailid points - I think! can't always tell -
Thanks, mds,
However, I took the trouble to outline the misunderstandings. I showed the gaps between what I said and how mart took it, and have done so in the past in other such cases. I try to write using fairly precise language, which, when considered, does NOT allow for wiggle room of interpretation into the kinds of understandings drawn here. I think the problem is much more a failure on the part of some to read carefully, to see a position that they have pre-determined... that happens to not be mine.

No ploy, I mean what I say, and try very hard to say exactly what I mean, as I have come to realize the importance of precise speech. That probably DOES mean that I have adopted some elements from Chesterton's style. But "studying him too much"? Not possible, I'm afraid. What would be a grand and preposterous statement about most writers is really true for GKC. Reading him is a complete education in itself, and is better than the average (or pretty much any) college degree. There are reasons for my saying that; I realize that it's not true about most people. If you ever want to know why, to begin to grasp the enormity of the man in every sense of the word, you're welcome to inquire - at chesterton.org or to just ask me. Consider that Russians DO take Pushkin seriously, and there is such a thing as the Pushkinist - the specialist on Pushkin that nobody laughs at here. Well, I am a Chestertonian - a scholar of the works and context of Chesterton. There's nothing silly or crazy about studying from a genius, and it's even better when the genius is both humble and funny.

Added thought - consider also that the AVERAGE educated reader in his time DID read and understand him, and it is not a matter of the period in which he wrote but of general education level and reading habits. I think nearly all of us are used to rather light fare in reading - Chesterton can be compared to them like granola to farina - you have to chew on what he says longer. I encourage people to try and tackle reading that requires real thought - that is counter-cultural and expresses ideas from angles that most have never thought of.
I'll also add that I got started on Lewis, and I think it made it a little easier to graduate to GKC. I started with "The Screwtape Letters" by Lewis and I was hooked pretty much from the start. The advice from a senior devil to a junior devil on how to destroy a man's soul was a fascinating instance of inverted dialog,like looking at everything through a mirror. Now that stuff is all the ABC's of thinking to me, but it was brand-new to me ten years ago.

rusmeister
29-08-2012, 07:07
I mostly enjoy reading Rus's posts for this same reason - different style and something to think about (pretty often)... but I agree with you -sadly Rus quite often uses this favorite trick of his - "define the term" or " you are not intelligent enough to procees what I write" - and very far-fetched comparisons also.. :) but once you got used to them it becomes pretty obvious when the post is worth spending time on it...

I'm sorry you think it a "trick", Inola. I am sincere. I have come to the conclusion - which really DOES mean the end of a line of thought - that the fuzziness I see everywhere in modern thought, as expressed in public education and the media and the thoughts that I see commonly repeated everywhere (which in a pre-media age were justly called "conventional wisdom"), is in part both caused by and furthersvfuzziness in language. All thought has become Impressionism, fewer people can say clearly and correctly what things are.

For example, if I ask what "discrimination" is, for example, I will certainly get a response along the lines of unfair treatment of people. But that is not historically what the word meant nor does it even admit that historical, and much more logical meaning; in short, that to discriminate means to distinguish, and that there can be good and wise discrimination as well as the bad and wicked kind that is the only kind the modern mind can conceive of. If I choose between edible mushrooms and poisonous ones, I am discriminating for the former and against the latter. And I must. To apply the rhetorical meaning, which has the effect of producing an automatic reaction like Pavlov's dogs, is to be foolish. The word, as used today, is mere rhetorical propaganda which short-circuits the question of whether the discrimination is good or not. It PREVENTS, rather than provokes thought, because as soon as the word is used, we have already pronounced judgement without thinking about it.

So definitions and clarity of meaning - definitions - and therefore clarity of thought are essentially if one is to think a thing through logically and arrive at truth, rather than be the victim of catch words and phrases and propaganda.

It is precisely that I DO think people intelligent enough to grasp the ideas that I say anything. Really, if I thought I was elite or special, I wouldn't waste time talking to "inferiors" or people who I really thought "not intelligent enough". I suppose
I'm lucky to gave figured out something first that I want to share with my peers, but I don't speak from a superiority complex. I'm just another guy in that sense. I just think I have thought some things out that other people haven't yet. Yes, I have the audacity to think I'm right (and sane people that hold opinions generally do) - but not that I am "better than you".

rusmeister
29-08-2012, 07:18
I have to whole-heartedly agree. Rus makes some good points but the writing style is like wading through mental treacle - after a while you simply give up trying to fathom what he's saying and move on.

I totally agree that I am no Chesterton, just a wanna-be - which, if a person is great enough, we SHOULD want to be like. That's why I encourage you to read him. I'm just the guy here and now that gets what he was saying then and sees it as 100% relevant to our lives today. Is it so hard to grasp something like this?:

"We have learned to do a great many clever things. The next great task is to learn not to do them."

That's not just witty, it is a serious truth which all scientists ought to hold in front of them as they work and consider whether a thing should be done, something that both Oppenheimer and Sakharov came, too late, to understand. It can be appied to cloning, surrogate motherhood, and a thousand other clever things that wind up doing more damage than good. (Not that I propose to debate all those issues here, just to make the point that it's NOT all "treacle", even if I don't do it as well or as witty as GKC.)