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kapione
22-10-2007, 17:26
look at this link from the Moscow Times :Dated 22 October 2007
New, Tougher Rules for Business Visas (http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2007/10/22/004.html)



New, Tougher Rules for Business Visas
By Alexander Osipovich
Staff Writer
The government is tightening the screws on foreigners who want to work here full time without a work visa -- and itinerant English teachers look likely to be the first to feel the squeeze.

Multiple-entry business visas, which used to let foreigners stay in Russia for up to one year, will now only allow stays of up to 90 days at a time, according to a decree signed by Prime Minister Viktor Zubkov on Oct. 4.

Under the new rules, such visas will still last one year. But they will only let people stay in Russia for up to 180 days of that year, and for no longer than 90 days at a time. Moreover, if a foreigner stays in Russia for 90 days straight, he or she is then required to leave and not come back until another 90 days have passed.

Zubkov's decree also says foreigners might have to obtain the visas in their native countries -- which implies that U.S. and British expatriates could no longer hop on the train to Kiev for a visa run. But representatives of visa agencies and foreign business lobbies were unsure how that rule would be implemented, and some said it might not apply to Westerners.

What is clear, however, is that expats can no longer stay in Russia endlessly by obtaining multiple-entry business visas and renewing them each year, said Alexei Filippenkov, director of the Visa Delight agency.


"Now, any foreigner who wants to come live here has to either go through the immigration process, and eventually obtain a residence permit, or else find an employer who will prepare a work visa for them," Filippenkov said.

Foreigners with work visas are not affected by the change.

It is unclear whether the new rules will affect foreigners with multiple-entry business visas issued before Zubkov's decree. But Filippenkov said it was unlikely.

Spokespeople for the Foreign Ministry and the Federal Migration Service declined to comment by telephone Friday, saying that all questions had to be submitted in writing. E-mails sent to the agencies were not answered as of Sunday.

The new rules could complicate life for expat English teachers, many of whom have multiple-entry business visas.

"If people have to come for 90 days and then leave, this will be very disruptive for the teaching process," said Helen Panovich, academic director of ITC, a company that hires English-language native speakers to give lessons to Russian businessmen.

Amy Cartwright, a spokeswoman for the Association of European Businesses, said most of AEB's member companies would not be affected because their foreign employees had work visas.

But she singled out expat English teachers as a potential trouble spot. "It's very worrying because it means that if you're a teacher, for example, and if you're on a business visa, you can't stay here," Cartwright said.

AEB has met with representatives of the Federal Migration Service to find out how the rules will be implemented, and one of the open questions is whether expats will have to return to their home country to obtain a business visa, she said.

"We don't have an answer yet, but we have asked them," Cartwright said.

Representatives of visa agencies had different takes on the provision in Zubkov's decree about returning to one's home country for a visa.

Timur Beslangurov, managing director of Vista Foreign Business Support, said foreigners would be able to obtain visas in the Russian embassy of any country as long as they could present a residence permit for that country, or at least some document proving that they had the right to live there for 90 days.

Filippenkov, of Visa Delight, said the provision about returning to one's home country did not apply to Westerners and was instead directed at countries like China, Turkey and India.

Russian embassies are notoriously inconsistent in their approach to issuing visas. In the past, it has often taken several months to see how rule changes are implemented.

Zubkov's decree puts Russia on the same footing as many Western countries, which also draw a distinction between visas designed for short visits and visas that grant one the right to work.

U.S. citizens who visit Britain, for example, are allowed to stay for up to six months, but they get a stamp in their passport stating they are prohibited from working there.

"The government is making things work the same way as they do in America and Europe," Filippenkov said. Russian citizens face the exact same 90- and 180-day restrictions in Germany, he added.

Still, such comparisons have not reassured expats accustomed to the ease of obtaining multiple-entry business visas and daunted by the obstacles of getting Russian work permits.

Call your Embassies and confirm this as I did ..... THE US Embassy did confirm this to me :-( if I can help anyone , ask me

kapione
22-10-2007, 17:30
please post this quickly this new Law affects everyone who has a multiple entry business visa whom do NOT have work permits , or Permenant residency status ! :-(

Bels
22-10-2007, 22:40
This Moscow Times appears to be more confused of the issues than the previous popular thead on this forum.

Firstly. especially teachers having a problem. Nothing has changed for years. The teacher has an invitation from a school who can poperly invite. There are very few of them in Moscow. They don't need a work permit and they dont't now, and not in the near future. The visa style may change, if it's the business visa they will be exempt from the 90 days in and the 90 days out. Or there will be a new work visa, but they won't need a permit.

However it will be more difficult for those teachers who thought they were kegally employed. from those schools supplied visas from an agency with an unknown name and address Those bogus invitatations were always illegal. And they are now.

I will never believe this newspaper again. They don't know the difference of when to use American English or British English. I can just see it, quotes and writings from British articles, news and quotes. It can look very funny and amusing when the editor decides to change it into American English. OHH! especially football. European soccer league. World Cup soccer Arsenak soccer club

Or how about the world championship un-armoured football in South Africa.

worzle
23-10-2007, 16:04
I'm leaving moscow this weekend for a week's holiday( bad timing or what:evilgrin:). I have a business visa that expires next March. Do you think I'll have problems when I return next week? Since my visa was issued last March I have been here longer than 180 day! What do you think?

Scottish01
23-10-2007, 16:14
I'm leaving moscow this weekend for a week's holiday( bad timing or what:evilgrin:). I have a business visa that expires next March. Do you think I'll have problems when I return next week? Since my visa was issued last March I have been here longer than 180 day! What do you think?
I spoke to my agent in the UK yeterday. He told me that if you don't have the 90 day thing on your visa you should not have a problem!

However, it's just a shame he also doesn't work here at passport control !!!

Let us know how you got on!!

Proper Bostonian
23-10-2007, 16:30
Worzle, hopefully you won't have a problem. Please let us know your experience upon your return. Good luck!

Bels
23-10-2007, 18:51
I'm leaving moscow this weekend for a week's holiday( bad timing or what:evilgrin:). I have a business visa that expires next March. Do you think I'll have problems when I return next week? Since my visa was issued last March I have been here longer than 180 day! What do you think?

I'm hoping I'm right and you won't be affected until such time as your visa expire, and you apply for the next time.

Let us allk know how you get on as I will be keeping my fingers crossed for you. Again, taking stories from here it will still depend on your nationality and where you get your visa. I still recommend you get it from your home country.

Bels
23-10-2007, 18:53
I spoke to my agent in the UK yeterday. He told me that if you don't have the 90 day thing on your visa you should not have a problem!

However, it's just a shame he also doesn't work here at passport control !!!

Let us know how you got on!!

Has any Brit got a visa with the 90 day from London?

Bels
23-10-2007, 18:57
I'm leaving moscow this weekend for a week's holiday( bad timing or what:evilgrin:). I have a business visa that expires next March. Do you think I'll have problems when I return next week? Since my visa was issued last March I have been here longer than 180 day! What do you think?

Noticing your Nationality, Irish. And assuming you are going to Ireland you should be OK. I hope so, but nothing surprises me anymore if I was to believe everything from the Moscow Times.

Garibaldi
23-10-2007, 20:25
Why wouldn't I just use repetitive 90-day visas instead, then?

I used to do that many years ago and it was an excellent excuse to get out of here regularly anyway!

Sumarokov-Elston
24-10-2007, 01:32
This is incredibly confusing. So this is one step beyond the Shengen-Russia rule that came into force in the summer, applying to people of all countries?

mariosnic
24-10-2007, 11:37
there are actually many confusing parts of this new law. For example the MT article says "if you stay for 90 days then you must go for 90". What happens for example if you only stay 70 days? you then have to go for 70? or you can come back for another 20? I'm trying to see if there is a way to piece together 180s until June by leaving 1-2 times in between. Thanks to all will give some help to this mess.:(

Bels
24-10-2007, 12:14
There is no no news of any new visas, changes of law that will affect those who didn't sign the contract, such as Great Britain. And no news of changes for Americans at my local Russian Embassy in London. The visas are still the same, and the latest news hasn't changed. There is a seporate application form for American applying for a visa. I find that many Americans do apply in London

For the moment I can't accept anything different for Americans or Brits, and that we have nothing to do with this 90 day in and out business. Although mistakes have been made in Russian embassies in Europe, But not in London.

But who knows what the near future may bring.

Консульский отдел Посольства России в Лондоне (http://rusemblon.org/)

Normally, If the Russians have any new news about visas, they would normally show it on this web-site. Or the embassy website in your own country. It's obvious isn't it, people are applying here everyday. It's very important that these applicants are well informed in English of course.

mcgavock
24-10-2007, 14:21
I can second that,

The visa agency I use in the UK asked at the consulate in London yesterday how and when they would be implementing the new rules - to which they replied - what new rules? we no nothing about this.

Bels
24-10-2007, 18:54
I can second that,

The visa agency I use in the UK asked at the consulate in London yesterday how and when they would be implementing the new rules - to which they replied - what new rules? we no nothing about this.

Hooray! At last. The Moscow Times. HA HA HA! Where did they get their info. From the copy-cat Expat forum. Certainl not from the Times or the BBC. Because there's nothing there either.

ezik
24-10-2007, 21:19
No, let's all realise that this is not just the Russian government deciding on things.

Visa rules are carefully negotiated between countries, and certainly for EU countries, the agreed treaty has a lot of impact.

The FIRST party that needs to be aware of the rules after the Russian government, is your local diplomatic representational body in Russia, i.e. your embassy. If they cannot answer your question, render it an irrelevant question that ALWAYS should be answered in your favor.

Governments and embassies may know what is going on, but we sure as hell don't. This sort of stuff is not decided on a level of business travellers, but on the level of people who have no problem ever immigrating, as they are on a diplomatic visa or are Russian. The meaning and impact of their decisions "in real life" is absolutely abstract to them, as they never have to deal with this stuff themselves.

I think that my government, including foreign representations, has a duty to provide me with unlimited and accurate information when I ask for it. In my home country that is actually a law. Probably it works the same for the country where you are from, if it is a country with basic democratic features.

Ambassador and Consul phone numbers are easy to get, so get them and store them in your mobile phone. If you have any trouble entering the country or getting a visa, phone them.

It is typical how we have to guess about these rules for over 9 months, with no official party actually responding to us in a proper manner.

With "us" I mean: this site, Redtape, other sites aimed at foreigners, which are destined to have a lot of Embassy personnel (as expats) as members. I think it is completely unacceptable that our local representations here are not able to tell us ONE rule and a FIXED set of criteria.

The prime minister of my home country is soon going to be around in Moscow. I'm invited to a reception with him. Will ask, and encourage any other expat to do so as well when their government visits this place.

Bels
24-10-2007, 21:53
What? ask my British Embassy? With similar questions I made in the past, I know what they will say. " It's not our business to be involved with the laws and internal affairs of Russia"

My answer to this is, if the Russians were to bring out a new law to line up all British Expats in Russia and then shoot them. Would they feel responsible to do something?

mandelstam13
24-10-2007, 23:30
Might want to check this out - especially point 5.

It looks pretty official to me.

4 2007 . N 635 , , , , (http://www.government.ru/government/governmentactivity/rfgovernmentdecisions/archive/2007/10/05/4833186.htm)

ezik
24-10-2007, 23:46
Might want to check this out - especially point 5.

It looks pretty official to me.

4 2007 . N 635 , , , , (http://www.government.ru/government/governmentactivity/rfgovernmentdecisions/archive/2007/10/05/4833186.htm)

How is a person who is applying for a visa and is very unlikely to read Russian, supposed to understand? Why is the translated text not on any Embassy websites? I will rely on information that I, as a law-abiding citizen, can have access to in a reasonable way.

ezik
24-10-2007, 23:58
What? ask my British Embassy? With similar questions I made in the past, I know what they will say. " It's not our business to be involved with the laws and internal affairs of Russia"

My answer to this is, if the Russians were to bring out a new law to line up all British Expats in Russia and then shoot them. Would they feel responsible to do something?

The quote " It's not our business to be involved with the laws and internal affairs of Russia" is deceiving. Visa rules are decided on a diplomatic level, and a representative body of any country (who negotiates it) should be aware of any rules. Hiding behind "this is not my task" is a cheap excuse and legally often incorrect. Your government has an obligation to inform you. And if they cannot inform you sufficiently, they should provide you with a suitable advice.

Why?

Because they deal with the Russian government on a daily basis.
Because it is their job to know this stuff better than you do.
Because they are more powerful than you. Logically, as you elected them to be so in a democratic system.
Because they are your representation of your government overhere and should help you, as you are a citizen.

They are better informed and more powerful than you as an individual. And as they pretend to represent a country and its citizens in Russia, they have an obligation to help.

I know that in practice, there are a lot of formal reasons to deny this. Most of them come down to task descriptions. But morally they have a duty. And if they deny this moral, they deny their every democratic right to be here representing you, while being on a royal package without any visa hussle.

mandelstam13
25-10-2007, 00:15
Well, sorry for posting it.

Sumarokov-Elston
25-10-2007, 10:33
I completely agree with everything that Ezik says. I would suggest contacting, perhaps, not the actual embassy or consulate, which is really only an outpost with constantly revolving staff who have various responsibilities, but the head body - the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I think in the US it is the State Department, in other countries possibly called the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. That is where the decisions are made, after all. Or, failing that, your MP or MEP is also duty bound to represent you and bring up issues with the relevant govt institution.

Bels
25-10-2007, 21:11
Well, sorry for posting it.

Thanks for posting it. I've just had my wife read it and translate it. It's just that it's not good news, And if speaking for me I am disappointed my Embassy or the Russian Embassy doesn't give the info for these new laws to be inforcable. That's the problem, you can't passlaws for foreigners under secret closed doors. And laws should be given time to be enforcable.

I strongly suggest that if their are any British consulate members or American etc I suggest you have a duty to inform us here, or at least on your web site. That is your duty. As Expat.ru is the main forum for expats informing us here would be a very good idea.

Bels
25-10-2007, 21:15
No, let's all realise that this is not just the Russian government deciding on things.

Visa rules are carefully negotiated between countries, and certainly for EU countries, the agreed treaty has a lot of impact.

The FIRST party that needs to be aware of the rules after the Russian government, is your local diplomatic representational body in Russia, i.e. your embassy. If they cannot answer your question, render it an irrelevant question that ALWAYS should be answered in your favor.

Governments and embassies may know what is going on, but we sure as hell don't. This sort of stuff is not decided on a level of business travellers, but on the level of people who have no problem ever immigrating, as they are on a diplomatic visa or are Russian. The meaning and impact of their decisions "in real life" is absolutely abstract to them, as they never have to deal with this stuff themselves.

I think that my government, including foreign representations, has a duty to provide me with unlimited and accurate information when I ask for it. In my home country that is actually a law. Probably it works the same for the country where you are from, if it is a country with basic democratic features.

Ambassador and Consul phone numbers are easy to get, so get them and store them in your mobile phone. If you have any trouble entering the country or getting a visa, phone them.

It is typical how we have to guess about these rules for over 9 months, with no official party actually responding to us in a proper manner.

With "us" I mean: this site, Redtape, other sites aimed at foreigners, which are destined to have a lot of Embassy personnel (as expats) as members. I think it is completely unacceptable that our local representations here are not able to tell us ONE rule and a FIXED set of criteria.

The prime minister of my home country is soon going to be around in Moscow. I'm invited to a reception with him. Will ask, and encourage any other expat to do so as well when their government visits this place.

Ezik, I go along with you 100%. Why aren't our embassies keeping us informed if the Russians can't.

ezik
25-10-2007, 21:23
I strongly suggest that if their are any British consulate members or American etc I suggest you have a duty to inform us here, or at least on your web site. That is your duty. As Expat.ru is the main forum for expats informing us here would be a very good idea.

Indeed, Bels.

The only thing is: no consulate employee seems to be wanting to share any information. I have invited the same people before to please share information, but it all seems in vain. And I'm not sure where this attitude comes from. Probably, there is something very secretive about all this. But I think not.

ezik
25-10-2007, 21:25
And I can already imagine Embassy personel members of this site remembering the memo: "don't disclose anything to the public" :D

Bels
25-10-2007, 21:31
Indeed, Bels.

The only thing is: no consulate employee seems to be wanting to share any information. I have invited the same people before to please share information, but it all seems in vain. And I'm not sure where this attitude comes from. Probably, there is something very secretive about all this. But I think not.

If any of them are reding this thread, well I think the attitude of our public servants stinks. And if you don't want to represent us, get out and let someone else do the job properly.

mandelstam13
25-10-2007, 22:35
That's the problem, you can't passlaws for foreigners under secret closed doors. And laws should be given time to be enforcable.

It was hardly passed "under secret closed doors" (whatever that means). It was posted on a goverment website. The Russian goverment are under no obligation to translate this site into English. If it into English, then why not into Arabic? Or Urdu? Or Tadjik?

The law was signed on October 4th. It is now October 25. It came into law upon publication.

A law being enforcable has nothing to do with time, I would suggest, but more to do with the strength of the appropriate law enforcement body. Perhaps you mean, "to come into force?" But this, too, makes little sense.

Odd that.

ezik
25-10-2007, 22:59
The Russian goverment are under no obligation to translate this site into English.

Yawn.

Of course they are not "obliged".

And as every foreigner can read and understand Russian, there is also no need whatsoever to translate anything into any international language.

Just as you are fluent in Swedish, Italian, Dutch, French or any other language. You are lucky to be a polyglot, mandelstam13. We should all be like you.

Bels
25-10-2007, 23:09
It was hardly passed "under secret closed doors" (whatever that means). It was posted on a goverment website. The Russian goverment are under no obligation to translate this site into English. If it into English, then why not into Arabic? Or Urdu? Or Tadjik?

The law was signed on October 4th. It is now October 25. It came into law upon publication.

A law being enforcable has nothing to do with time, I would suggest, but more to do with the strength of the appropriate law enforcement body. Perhaps you mean, "to come into force?" But this, too, makes little sense.

Odd that.
Britain does it. Urdu and any other language if necessary. They also ensure that their laws are enforcable, by giving time and ensuring that the relevent people are aware of it.

But they could begin by using the first second language in the world ENGLISH
because that is who they are directing the laws to, or to the people that English is their second ;language. Then perhaps they could progress by using the top six 2nd languages in the world. Whatever happens the relevent people affected should be easily informed for laws to be enforcable.

mandelstam13
25-10-2007, 23:32
Actually, the law is aimed at foreigners per se, most of whom are from ex-Soviet states. They all speak, and read, Russian.

And without being personal, for someone who writes 'private English teacher' under his name, you really should sort out your syntax, grammar, and even choice of vocabulary Bels.

The previous message is barely understandable.


But they could begin by using the first second language in the world ENGLISH
because that is who they are directing the laws to (English - who?), or to the people that (perhaps 'for who, or even , 'for whom'?) English is their second ;language. Then perhaps they could progress by using the top six 2nd languages in the world. Whatever happens the relevent people affected (clumsy use of relevant and affected) should be easily informed (sorry, what does 'easily informed' mean?) for laws to be enforcable.

Anyway that's enough from me.

Bels
25-10-2007, 23:51
Actually, the law is aimed at foreigners per se, most of whom are from ex-Soviet states. They all speak, and read, Russian.

And without being personal, for someone who writes 'private English teacher' under his name, you really should sort out your syntax, grammar, and even choice of vocabulary Bels.

The previous message is barely understandable.



Anyway that's enough from me.

I'm not going to get involved with personal attacks. I hope all your posts are perfect, the past or present. I am satisfied that in general my communication here are satisfactory.

But the main issue is how are we all going to be properly informed, without any confusion coming from other posts,

JohnnyLomo
26-10-2007, 07:41
Ok, I was also in a bit of a panic about this but there may be a little bit of breathing space.

" " " " " (http://www.akdi.ru/GD/PROEKT/095984GD.SHTM)

The very last line states

"Article 4. Present federal law comes into force after three months from the day of its official publication."

Which may give some a little hope regarding the immediate future.

Also after reading extensively I do feel that these restrictions are not aimed at Brits, Irish or Danes who did not sign any agreement with Russia.
Whilst the Russian UK Consular website is very vague abut any changes it does mention the new Visa fees payable from Oct 1st stating

"01.06.2007. Visa fees for EU citizens to change (except UK, Ireland, Denmark)
Today Russia-EU Visa facilitation agreement comes into force. According to its provisions, visa processing fees are changed"
"

It then states

"However these provisions are not valid for the countries which did not sign the Agreement: the United Kingdom, Ireland and Denmark, as well as
Iceland and Norway which are not EU member states and did not sign the Agreement with Russia."

Read what you will into the above, but untill I see something to the contrary I am going to avoid panic.
If I were to leave I have nowhere to go, I came here to be with my girlfriend and will be applying for residency, I find it hard to believe that Russia
would be so hard as to pass a law that instantly caused many people such hardship.
For those nationalities that I have not mentioned, I would hazard a guess that the new regulations will not be retrospective as otherwise it would
make many people criminals overnight.

I am not a lawyer so please don't take this as gospel, but I hope it can calm some of the panic until further information becomes available.

Bels
26-10-2007, 12:20
Ok, I was also in a bit of a panic about this but there may be a little bit of breathing space.

" " " " " (http://www.akdi.ru/GD/PROEKT/095984GD.SHTM)

The very last line states

"Article 4. Present federal law comes into force after three months from the day of its official publication."

Which may give some a little hope regarding the immediate future.

Also after reading extensively I do feel that these restrictions are not aimed at Brits, Irish or Danes who did not sign any agreement with Russia.
Whilst the Russian UK Consular website is very vague abut any changes it does mention the new Visa fees payable from Oct 1st stating

"01.06.2007. Visa fees for EU citizens to change (except UK, Ireland, Denmark)
Today Russia-EU Visa facilitation agreement comes into force. According to its provisions, visa processing fees are changed"
"

It then states

"However these provisions are not valid for the countries which did not sign the Agreement: the United Kingdom, Ireland and Denmark, as well as
Iceland and Norway which are not EU member states and did not sign the Agreement with Russia."

Read what you will into the above, but untill I see something to the contrary I am going to avoid panic.
If I were to leave I have nowhere to go, I came here to be with my girlfriend and will be applying for residency, I find it hard to believe that Russia
would be so hard as to pass a law that instantly caused many people such hardship.
For those nationalities that I have not mentioned, I would hazard a guess that the new regulations will not be retrospective as otherwise it would
make many people criminals overnight.

I am not a lawyer so please don't take this as gospel, but I hope it can calm some of the panic until further information becomes available.

As stated I asked my Russian wife who is a professional translator, about
this web-link. I had it all printed out for her. But she couldn't find any critical changes in what so many expats are geting so excited about in previous posts

Where are the new laws that state anything different for Brits and Americans, of 90 day restrictions, and new laws for employment especially teachers of which the Moscow Times and previous posts here have mentioned.

Yes, this web-link is official but we can't find anything alarming about it. No where near what has been reported here and the Moscow Times.

Bels
26-10-2007, 12:27
Ok, I was also in a bit of a panic about this but there may be a little bit of breathing space.

" " " " " (http://www.akdi.ru/GD/PROEKT/095984GD.SHTM)

The very last line states

"Article 4. Present federal law comes into force after three months from the day of its official publication."

Which may give some a little hope regarding the immediate future.

Also after reading extensively I do feel that these restrictions are not aimed at Brits, Irish or Danes who did not sign any agreement with Russia.
Whilst the Russian UK Consular website is very vague abut any changes it does mention the new Visa fees payable from Oct 1st stating

"01.06.2007. Visa fees for EU citizens to change (except UK, Ireland, Denmark)
Today Russia-EU Visa facilitation agreement comes into force. According to its provisions, visa processing fees are changed"
"

It then states

"However these provisions are not valid for the countries which did not sign the Agreement: the United Kingdom, Ireland and Denmark, as well as
Iceland and Norway which are not EU member states and did not sign the Agreement with Russia."

Read what you will into the above, but untill I see something to the contrary I am going to avoid panic.
If I were to leave I have nowhere to go, I came here to be with my girlfriend and will be applying for residency, I find it hard to believe that Russia
would be so hard as to pass a law that instantly caused many people such hardship.
For those nationalities that I have not mentioned, I would hazard a guess that the new regulations will not be retrospective as otherwise it would
make many people criminals overnight.

I am not a lawyer so please don't take this as gospel, but I hope it can calm some of the panic until further information becomes available.


Might want to check this out - especially point 5.

It looks pretty official to me.

4 2007 . N 635 , , , , (http://www.government.ru/government/governmentactivity/rfgovernmentdecisions/archive/2007/10/05/4833186.htm)

To avoid confusion. This is the web-link I am talking about, and with my wife's assistance we can't find anything alarming about it. Nor can we find any news of these alarming laws stated here or in the Moscow Times.

So far there is no evidence to get excited about.

David Craig
26-10-2007, 12:54
I got ME Bus 1 year 30/05/07 BEFORE the decree.So what do I do?
I'm A Brit, teahing English, clearly no restriction PRINTED on the visa but what do I do?

I left and returned at the end of August, so by the rules enforced with my visa I should be able to stay till end of February, leave and immediately return till the end of the visa. I'm registered right till the end by Visa House(just have to hold onto the registration each time I leave)

But like others, I have a Russian passport holding(Abkhazian) wife and kid born here and I don't want to get to the airport in February and they tell me I've outstayed my welcome and moreover I'm not welcome back, screwing my family life. So what are others who are in a similar situation actually planning to do? Do you go after 90 and risk not getting back thus abandoning your family or do you sit here over the 90 days and wait to see what happens?.

If it's better to claim temporary residence where do I go and what do I have to do(I've been here already 5 years, officially married 3, kid is 4) without searching through all the threads....no offence to anyone who has already posted info, but I've spent two days searching out info regarding this new decree and my head is now bursting and my eyes have burnt out staring at the computer screen. Help......please......
Thankyou:coffee::coffee:

Clean32
26-10-2007, 14:29
then serch res or temp res, its not so bad

Sumarokov-Elston
26-10-2007, 21:07
My application for a one-year ME business visa went through at the exact time we were in the middle of all this turmoil. Started applying for the invitation just when all the hoo-ha about the EU-Russia agreement was breaking. Oh no! I have British passport and was applying in a EU nation! Applied in Prague on 1 October, but no restrictions to 90 days, the full year was written in the visa, which was issued on 9 October.

Duely arrived in Russia on 23 October, the very day the local newspaper broke the news on the Zubkov decree of 4 October. Oh no! After going to all the trouble of getting a one-year visa with no restrictions, was I going to be cheated at the last hurdle and get some horrible "90 days then let's see the back of you" stamp?? But my visa has just been registered today for the full 180 days I requested.

On a side note, next year the Czech Republic joins the Shengen agreement. For some reason, this means that Americans there get the 90-day rule applied to them. So unless they have a work permit, after 90 days it is "na sledanou" for the next 90 days. So if you're an American, you should come to Russia, not the Czech Republic. But if you're French, it is the exact opposite! They will be "penalised" in Russia, but free to live as long as they like in the Czech Republic.

Bels
26-10-2007, 21:35
I got ME Bus 1 year 30/05/07 BEFORE the decree.So what do I do?
I'm A Brit, teahing English, clearly no restriction PRINTED on the visa but what do I do?

I left and returned at the end of August, so by the rules enforced with my visa I should be able to stay till end of February, leave and immediately return till the end of the visa. I'm registered right till the end by Visa House(just have to hold onto the registration each time I leave)

But like others, I have a Russian passport holding(Abkhazian) wife and kid born here and I don't want to get to the airport in February and they tell me I've outstayed my welcome and moreover I'm not welcome back, screwing my family life. So what are others who are in a similar situation actually planning to do? Do you go after 90 and risk not getting back thus abandoning your family or do you sit here over the 90 days and wait to see what happens?.

Sorry, but I was confused by your third paragraph

If it's better to claim temporary residence where do I go and what do I have to do(I've been here already 5 years, officially married 3, kid is 4) without searching through all the threads....no offence to anyone who has already posted info, but I've spent two days searching out info regarding this new decree and my head is now bursting and my eyes have burnt out staring at the computer screen. Help......please......
Thankyou:coffee::coffee:

Interesting post, but what do you mean that you have a Russian passport holding. If you don't have a Russian then I fully understand your meaning.

I have to leave on my six month visa in January 2008. However if I was to believe any posts here i would have to leave in November (my 90 days limit)
But I won't be leaving because I haven't seen any evidence on my visa for Brits.And my family life comes first, aswell as I can't afford all this.

Hopefully the results of my residential visa will come through by next Friday as promised. Then I won't have to worry about all these doubts and confusions.

Bels
26-10-2007, 21:42
I got ME Bus 1 year 30/05/07 BEFORE the decree.So what do I do?
I'm A Brit, teahing English, clearly no restriction PRINTED on the visa but what do I do?

I left and returned at the end of August, so by the rules enforced with my visa I should be able to stay till end of February, leave and immediately return till the end of the visa. I'm registered right till the end by Visa House(just have to hold onto the registration each time I leave)

But like others, I have a Russian passport holding(Abkhazian) wife and kid born here and I don't want to get to the airport in February and they tell me I've outstayed my welcome and moreover I'm not welcome back, screwing my family life. So what are others who are in a similar situation actually planning to do? Do you go after 90 and risk not getting back thus abandoning your family or do you sit here over the 90 days and wait to see what happens?.

If it's better to claim temporary residence where do I go and what do I have to do(I've been here already 5 years, officially married 3, kid is 4) without searching through all the threads....no offence to anyone who has already posted info, but I've spent two days searching out info regarding this new decree and my head is now bursting and my eyes have burnt out staring at the computer screen. Help......please......
Thankyou:coffee::coffee:

Your last paragraph. You get your application from OVIR. Does your wife know where it is. In my case it's the same place where your wife gets her internal passport. We will start from there, get your application and iif you are not fluent in Russian your wife will need to help you a lot.

Bels
26-10-2007, 21:51
My application for a one-year ME business visa went through at the exact time we were in the middle of all this turmoil. Started applying for the invitation just when all the hoo-ha about the EU-Russia agreement was breaking. Oh no! I have British passport and was applying in a EU nation! Applied in Prague on 1 October, but no restrictions to 90 days, the full year was written in the visa, which was issued on 9 October.

Duely arrived in Russia on 23 October, the very day the local newspaper broke the news on the Zubkov decree of 4 October. Oh no! After going to all the trouble of getting a one-year visa with no restrictions, was I going to be cheated at the last hurdle and get some horrible "90 days then let's see the back of you" stamp?? But my visa has just been registered today for the full 180 days I requested.

On a side note, next year the Czech Republic joins the Shengen agreement. For some reason, this means that Americans there get the 90-day rule applied to them. So unless they have a work permit, after 90 days it is "na sledanou" for the next 90 days. So if you're an American, you should come to Russia, not the Czech Republic. But if you're French, it is the exact opposite! They will be "penalised" in Russia, but free to live as long as they like in the Czech Republic.

First, look at the Russian embassy from you country. What do they tell you

rusemblon.org

Nothing different, because there is nothing different. Your visa is fine unless you can find evidence from the legal source, and I'm afraid that this does not apply to any local newspapers at the moment.

Any Brits or Americans going to EU countries that signed the agreement are wrong to make the decision without taking nationality into consideration.

In other words they have got confused in the respect that the visa applies to what nationality you are. Not to which country you apply with.

Bels
26-10-2007, 21:59
My application for a one-year ME business visa went through at the exact time we were in the middle of all this turmoil. Started applying for the invitation just when all the hoo-ha about the EU-Russia agreement was breaking. Oh no! I have British passport and was applying in a EU nation! Applied in Prague on 1 October, but no restrictions to 90 days, the full year was written in the visa, which was issued on 9 October.

Duely arrived in Russia on 23 October, the very day the local newspaper broke the news on the Zubkov decree of 4 October. Oh no! After going to all the trouble of getting a one-year visa with no restrictions, was I going to be cheated at the last hurdle and get some horrible "90 days then let's see the back of you" stamp?? But my visa has just been registered today for the full 180 days I requested.

On a side note, next year the Czech Republic joins the Shengen agreement. For some reason, this means that Americans there get the 90-day rule applied to them. So unless they have a work permit, after 90 days it is "na sledanou" for the next 90 days. So if you're an American, you should come to Russia, not the Czech Republic. But if you're French, it is the exact opposite! They will be "penalised" in Russia, but free to live as long as they like in the Czech Republic.

To sum it all up, I assume the local newspaper you are talking about is the Moscow Times. Don't believe a word they state as it's all garbage. I don't know where they got their sources of info to come up with so much garbage.

Sumarokov-Elston
26-10-2007, 22:44
I wouldn't say that the article is completely baseless. There was indeed a Постановление "О внесении изменений в Положение об установлении формы визы, порядка и условий ее оформления и выдачи, продления срока ее действия, восстановления ее в случае утраты, а также порядка аннулирования визы" of 4 October 2007. The whole text can be read here:

4 2007 . N 635 " , , , , (http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/doc/103384.htm)

The most important part for all of us is this:

5. Пункт 17 дополнить абзацем следующего содержания:
"Суммарный срок пребывания иностранного гражданина в Российской Федерации по многократной визе устанавливается при оформлении визы уполномоченным государственным органом, но не более чем 90 дней в течение каждого периода в 180 дней, за исключением случаев, предусмотренных настоящим Положением.".

The whole document seems hopelessly vague (maybe all govt decrees are like that?). How is it going to be enforced? When you re-register for the second, third time, do they look at all your passport pages to see how long you have been here? No! How are airlines going to enforce this rule? Can you imagine the chaos when people are found to be appearing for 90 + X days in a 180-day period and the airlines are supposed to pay for your repatriation - are check-in staff going to spend half an hour counting the number of days you have been in Russia in each passenger's passport? Check-in times for Russian flights would have to be 10 hours in advance!

At the moment, I think the worst that happens is that the maximum period of stay will MAYBE be reduced to 90 days, so you have 90 days in Russia + 1 day in Helsinki/Estonia/Kiev, then back for another 90 days and so on in a year 4 x 90 = 360 days + 5 in another country. That is just one possible solution. What will be interesting is hearing how EU citizens get round this new 90 in 180 days ruling, as I'm sure they will.

Bels
26-10-2007, 23:03
I wouldn't say that the article is completely baseless. There was indeed a Постановление "О внесении изменений в Положение об установлении формы визы, порядка и условий ее оформления и выдачи, продления срока ее действия, восстановления ее в случае утраты, а также порядка аннулирования визы" of 4 October 2007. The whole text can be read here:

4 2007 . N 635 " , , , , (http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/doc/103384.htm)

The most important part for all of us is this:

5. Пункт 17 дополнить абзацем следующего содержания:
"Суммарный срок пребывания иностранного гражданина в Российской Федерации по многократной визе устанавливается при оформлении визы уполномоченным государственным органом, но не более чем 90 дней в течение каждого периода в 180 дней, за исключением случаев, предусмотренных настоящим Положением.".

The whole document seems hopelessly vague (maybe all govt decrees are like that?). How is it going to be enforced? When you re-register for the second, third time, do they look at all your passport pages to see how long you have been here? No! How are airlines going to enforce this rule? Can you imagine the chaos when people are found to be appearing for 90 + X days in a 180-day period and the airlines are supposed to pay for your repatriation - are check-in staff going to spend half an hour counting the number of days you have been in Russia in each passenger's passport? Check-in times for Russian flights would have to be 10 hours in advance!

At the moment, I think the worst that happens is that the maximum period of stay will MAYBE be reduced to 90 days, so you have 90 days in Russia + 1 day in Helsinki/Estonia/Kiev, then back for another 90 days and so on in a year 4 x 90 = 360 days + 5 in another country. That is just one possible solution. What will be interesting is hearing how EU citizens get round this new 90 in 180 days ruling, as I'm sure they will.

That,s what I thought. Hopelessly vague and un-enforcible. When you are talking about EU citizens are you talking about the ones who signed the agreement or all EU citizens.

Bels
26-10-2007, 23:59
I wouldn't say that the article is completely baseless. There was indeed a Постановление "О внесении изменений в Положение об установлении формы визы, порядка и условий ее оформления и выдачи, продления срока ее действия, восстановления ее в случае утраты, а также порядка аннулирования визы" of 4 October 2007. The whole text can be read here:

4 2007 . N 635 " , , , , (http://www.garant.ru/hotlaw/doc/103384.htm)

The most important part for all of us is this:

5. Пункт 17 дополнить абзацем следующего содержания:
"Суммарный срок пребывания иностранного гражданина в Российской Федерации по многократной визе устанавливается при оформлении визы уполномоченным государственным органом, но не более чем 90 дней в течение каждого периода в 180 дней, за исключением случаев, предусмотренных настоящим Положением.".

The whole document seems hopelessly vague (maybe all govt decrees are like that?). How is it going to be enforced? When you re-register for the second, third time, do they look at all your passport pages to see how long you have been here? No! How are airlines going to enforce this rule? Can you imagine the chaos when people are found to be appearing for 90 + X days in a 180-day period and the airlines are supposed to pay for your repatriation - are check-in staff going to spend half an hour counting the number of days you have been in Russia in each passenger's passport? Check-in times for Russian flights would have to be 10 hours in advance!

At the moment, I think the worst that happens is that the maximum period of stay will MAYBE be reduced to 90 days, so you have 90 days in Russia + 1 day in Helsinki/Estonia/Kiev, then back for another 90 days and so on in a year 4 x 90 = 360 days + 5 in another country. That is just one possible solution. What will be interesting is hearing how EU citizens get round this new 90 in 180 days ruling, as I'm sure they will.

You are not reading it properly. First of all it doesn't apply to those who already have visas on the old agreement, so those concerned stop worrying.

For those who go for their next visa, then the restrictions apply. There is no escape , it's ninety days in, and ninety days out. That's it and they do know.

sparkyal
07-11-2007, 20:43
Hi everyone! I wanted to ask a couple of questions. We (my wife, myself and 3 kids) have a nanny here from the USA on a multiple entry 1 year long business visa. Our nanny received this visa prior to the new 90/180 days law coming out. so, there is nothing on the visa stating anything about number of days except to say that it is for 366 days. So, that is the background. time for the questions.

So, after 90 days she would need to leave and not come back for another 6 months. so, what would happen if she just stayed the whole time and left when she was planning on it? do you think this law would be retroactive? If she does leave before 90 days how long does she need to wait before coming back in?

thanks for your thoughts!

Bels
07-11-2007, 21:25
Hi everyone! I wanted to ask a couple of questions. We (my wife, myself and 3 kids) have a nanny here from the USA on a multiple entry 1 year long business visa. Our nanny received this visa prior to the new 90/180 days law coming out. so, there is nothing on the visa stating anything about number of days except to say that it is for 366 days. So, that is the background. time for the questions.

So, after 90 days she would need to leave and not come back for another 6 months. so, what would happen if she just stayed the whole time and left when she was planning on it? do you think this law would be retroactive? If she does leave before 90 days how long does she need to wait before coming back in?

thanks for your thoughts!

I can only give you my thoughts :) hopefully a little of facts. So the Russian employers are confused, The Russian Embassies abroad are confused, THe customs, and the police are confused. The foreign Embassies such as Britain , America and the EU are confused. And the media is confused especially the Moscow Times.

Can I assume she is a British nanny, of course she must be and then I would say don't worry about it. Until her next visa application, then just follow the rules when she applies again. What does the Russian embassy say in London at the moment. Nothing different!

There is something about you as the Russian, it has been made easier for you personally to make invitations. But I'm not sure about the details. You will need to make professional enquiries.

nnl203
09-11-2007, 15:24
Hi all,

I work for an Embassy of a EU country in Moscow. The information provided in the MT is correct. I did not have time to read all your messages so hopefully I answer some questions below.

On June 1, 2007 the Visa Facilitation Agreement between the EU and Russia entered into force.

The Agreement DOES NOT apply to the UK, Ireland, Denmark, Iceland and Norway although in the future Russia and these countries may enter into similar but bilateral agreements.

In essence, the rules which enter into force are a mirror of the rules which already applied to Russian citizens and their Schengenvisa.

The Agreement governs short term visas (among which multiple entry business visa valid for one year). However, the rules mentioned in the Agreement are only applicable on visas issued after June 1, 2007.

The rule which will bring lots of foreigners in Russia into trouble is the following: one cannot stay on the territory of the RF for more than 90 days per period of 180 days.

What does this mean? Let's take the example of the (assume most common) multiple entry business visa valid for one year. So you dispose of two 90 day periods (one in the first 180 days, a second one in the second 180 days of the year). It means you dispose of 90 days in total (and not consecutive days) of which you can stay in the RF in this first 180 days. The period starts on the first day of entry into the RF. So assume you entered the RF on July 13 with a visa issued after June 1 and you decided to stay for 90 consecutive days. Your last legal day in the RF was October 11, 2007. You need to exit the RF and you may return with the same visa on the first day of the start of the second period of 180 days (180 days after July 13).

So effectively, it means you can only use a business visa for what it is intended: for a business trip and not for a prolonged stay on the territory. I am sorry this brings many people into trouble, I hope you will all found a solution. The signal we have received is that the rule will be implemented (although there is still some confusing on many levels, this won't last so I would advise to not take any chances).

I hope this makes things somewhat clearer. Although your Embassy is technically not authorized or competent to answer your questions (only the Russian authorities are), if you have any questions, I would contact them anyway and ask to speak to someone at the visa department. These people have dealt with Schengenvisa and these rules for some time and as I said, the rules are the same for Schengen as for Russian visa.

mandelstam13
09-11-2007, 18:28
Sorry, but i think you may be mistaken about the law regarding visas issued after June 1st. The law regarding the 90 days stay was only signed by Zhukov on October 4th, which would mean that, were the law to be retroactively applied, people in the counry on visas issued on , say ,June 1st, would already be de facto illegal. The Russian goverment has said, and indeed practice seems to indicate, that the law does not apply to visas issued before the law was signed.
No?

Rob26
09-11-2007, 18:34
Hi all,

On June 1, 2007 the Visa Facilitation Agreement between the EU and Russia entered into force.

The Agreement DOES NOT apply to the UK, Ireland, Denmark, Iceland and Norway although in the future Russia and these countries may enter into similar but bilateral agreements.


So the 90 day rule does not apply to British citizens? Meaning that a 1 year ME visa is good for a year (2 x 180 day periods)?

ezik
09-11-2007, 18:37
nnl203,

Many thanks! You made this thread "Sticky". Very useful and concise information.

mandelstam13
09-11-2007, 18:37
No, he's confusing two laws. The first doesn't apply to British citizens, but the second does.

Rob26
09-11-2007, 18:42
No, he's confusing two laws. The first doesn't apply to British citizens, but the second does.

The 1st and 2nd laws are what? Sorry obviously this is a very confusing time for everyone :confused:

Bels
09-11-2007, 18:49
Honestly, one minute relaxed, next minute frustrated. I'm going by my original beliefs and go for what info your own countries Russian Embassy gives. What I mean is get the source from your country of nationality. So if your American, check the Russian Embassy in America, if your British check your Russian Embassy in London or Edinburgh for example.

The new regulations will come through soon enough, and you will see it in these Embassies when they come into force. My Guess is bofore the end of this year.

ezik
09-11-2007, 18:51
By the way. OVIR still easily registers people for 180 days at a time, nevermind the 90 day rule. This illustrates the confusion on different levels of the government.

ezik
09-11-2007, 18:57
Very good point.

Any "reliable, yet officially not authorized source" able to confirm this?

Mandelstam13: do you have a source of this information about signing on the 4th that we can link here? Language doesn't really matter, we can get it translated. Would be good to collect this all in one thread. Many thanks.


Sorry, but i think you may be mistaken about the law regarding visas issued after June 1st. The law regarding the 90 days stay was only signed by Zhukov on October 4th, which would mean that, were the law to be retroactively applied, people in the counry on visas issued on , say ,June 1st, would already be de facto illegal. The Russian goverment has said, and indeed practice seems to indicate, that the law does not apply to visas issued before the law was signed.
No?

Bels
09-11-2007, 19:15
I can't remember if I am repeating this address on this particular thread. But I do believe anything official coming from Russian written from Russians in English is welcome. I will give the British version and I ask Americans, Canadians, British, Irish, Australians, New Zealanders and other EU countries to provide the same. And those other countries that provide the English language, perhaps Estonia and Finland. I suggest keeping a regular read of these web-site because what they state may change over time

Here is the Russian embassy in London again

Консульский отдел Посольства России в Лондоне (http://www.rusemblon.org)

What about the USA and Australian addresses for example.

ezik
09-11-2007, 19:56
I can't remember if I am repeating this address on this particular thread. But I do believe anything official coming from Russian written from Russians in English is welcome. I will give the British version and I ask Americans, Canadians, British, Irish, Australians, New Zealanders and other EU countries to provide the same. And those other countries that provide the English language, perhaps Estonia and Finland. I suggest keeping a regular read of these web-site because what they state may change over time

Here is the Russian embassy in London again

Консульский отдел Посольства *оссии в Лондоне (http://www.rusemblon.org)

What about the USA and Australian addresses for example.

Little harmonisation there. Russia asks for three months of bank statements (rather highly private info, I'd say) where others ask for salary slips.

I think we rather appreciate too much than too little information at this point, Bels, so thank you.

We'll all wrap it up if this is over.

Still very curious about the 4th of October as a cut-off date.

Bels
09-11-2007, 22:21
Little harmonisation there. Russia asks for three months of bank statements (rather highly private info, I'd say) where others ask for salary slips.

I think we rather appreciate too much than too little information at this point, Bels, so thank you.

We'll all wrap it up if this is over.

Still very curious about the 4th of October as a cut-off date.

If you are stating what's been stated about in the London Russian Embassy in London Embassy it's old hat. Bank statements I have never been asked for even though I was self employed. If the question ever comes up simply state you don't have one. Because nobody has to have a bank account if they don't want one. Simple as that, but they won't ask.

This is not a new rule, just a typical old one that is ignored because they know there is an answer. Know one has to have a bank account, there is no legislation to have one. The problem has never been there.

SalTheReturn
09-11-2007, 22:52
nnl203,

Many thanks! You made this thread "Sticky". Very useful and concise information.

I also did not find those info to b very coincise and seems to contraddict too strongly what it has been said for ages

I would rather ask this embassy officer one favour:
HOW COMES THAT EVEN THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE IN THE KNOW ARE YET CONFUSED ABOUT THIS LAW?
WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?
WHO IS TO BE BLAMED FOR THAT?

sparkyal
10-11-2007, 01:23
Ok, first, the person from the EU Embassy mentioned that this law does not apply to people from the UK. My nanny is a citizen of the USA *so am i for that matter),

So, does the 90/180 rule apply? Also, on her visa it very clearly states for 366 days and she is registered for the whole year of the term of her visa. also, what happens if someone stays beyond the 90 days?

thva
10-11-2007, 13:16
in fact no one (not even the OVIR or border guards) knows this yet - they have made this new rule, but haven't figured out how to enforce it yet - there are currently no provisions for enforcement or penalties in the regulations

mandelstam13
10-11-2007, 15:20
Mandelstam13: do you have a source of this information about signing on the 4th that we can link here? Language doesn't really matter, we can get it translated. Would be good to collect this all in one thread. Many thanks.

Here is the link.

4 2007 . N 635 , , , , (http://www.government.ru/government/governmentactivity/rfgovernmentdecisions/archive/2007/10/05/4833186.htm)

There is no mention of the law applying retroactively. That is, according to this, if you got your ME visa before October 18th, your visa does not fall under the 90 day law. (And that's a Russian lawyer speaking, not me)

DaveAH
11-11-2007, 17:46
From what I found out, the Work Visa and Work Permit Combination are unafected, but the Business Visa and Work Permit is affected and folks with the stuck in the pasport type of Visa need to get one of those Green 4 page jobs

Bels
11-11-2007, 20:49
It's simple really, If you come here employed by a company who has a right to employ you, your ok. If you come here with no employment plans you are stuck on this 90 day business. That's the way it is and that's how they planned it. I don't think all the enforcements for all the countries have arrived yet, But I do believe they are on the way by the end of the year. When all will become clear for all of us.

ezik
11-11-2007, 22:37
Here is the link.

4 2007 . N 635 , , , , (http://www.government.ru/government/governmentactivity/rfgovernmentdecisions/archive/2007/10/05/4833186.htm)

There is no mention of the law applying retroactively. That is, according to this, if you got your ME visa before October 18th, your visa does not fall under the 90 day law. (And that's a Russian lawyer speaking, not me)

Thank you and your lawyer. This is very valuable to know.

ezik
11-11-2007, 22:44
I also did not find those info to b very coincise and seems to contraddict too strongly what it has been said for ages

I would rather ask this embassy officer one favour:
HOW COMES THAT EVEN THE PEOPLE WHO SHOULD BE IN THE KNOW ARE YET CONFUSED ABOUT THIS LAW?
WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?
WHO IS TO BE BLAMED FOR THAT?

Sal,
Nail on the the head. If those who should know are confused, how are we supposed to know?
Embassies are "not authorised" to say anything. Russia provides the information only to those who know Russian.
There are enough arguments that say that foreigners who want to live here for some time should learn Russian. Agree.
But the Ministry of Foreign affairs providing information only in Russian is a great example of lack of empathy. What are they thinking there?
cheers
ezik

Bels
11-11-2007, 23:13
I couldn't have survived unless I had a professional wife who was proficient not only in British laws but in Russian Laws. Her methods are always to pick up the telephone and be a pest.

However it works for her, as she is not a great internet person, in fact she looks down on forums, thats the way she is , more of a telephone person. But it works for her. I think the the authorities see her as a nuisance, but at least she is trying to get results and she does eventually. As we all really want to achieve things legally here, don't we. Problem is , sometimes there are obstacles to stop us to do it properly.

Wolverine
19-11-2007, 01:04
if you got your ME visa before October 18th, your visa does not fall under the 90 day law.

Thanks to everyone for all your info.

In case anyone's interested:
I got my ME visa on Oct. 29, 2007. I'm American and got it in the US.
For the record, it LOOKS just like last year's multiple entry visa and says duration of stay is 365 days.
HOWEVER, after passing a law like that, I would not expect all the embassies to be able to print new visa stickers that quickly.
Also, I didn't register when I entered, so I don't know what would happen with that. I've been travelling to Russia onece a year for 10 years (but only this past year on multiple entry), and have never registered. (now I'm starting to worry about it though - I entered the country on Nov 2.).

th&vk
19-11-2007, 12:05
Thanks to everyone for all your info.

In case anyone's interested:
I got my ME visa on Oct. 29, 2007. I'm American and got it in the US.
For the record, it LOOKS just like last year's multiple entry visa and says duration of stay is 365 days. .

I've noticed a number of people saying the visas still say 365 days, and questioning how that fits into the new law. It seems to me that this is exactly what we should expect. The visa is indeed VALID for 365 days - that is a separate issue from how long you can actually stay in Russia, in one stretch (up to 90 days) or total (180 days in 1 year). That's how I understand it. I would expect the visas themselves to still say 365 days.
Do others understand it this way?

Proper Bostonian
19-11-2007, 12:12
I suspect some will say 365 days and some will show restrictions, perhaps depending on how up to date blank visas are at the various embassies. However, I also suspect you may only get 90 days when you go to register.

Let us know.

米乐龙
19-11-2007, 17:57
Doesn't matter if it is printed on the visa or not, the law still stands. Let's see when you try and exit the country having stayed over 90 days.

Bels
19-11-2007, 20:45
Doesn't matter if it is printed on the visa or not, the law still stands. Let's see when you try and exit the country having stayed over 90 days.

This is the major confusion. For those who didn't sign the agreement in the EU such as the UK, and the Americans who weren't involved are the laws inb force now. Or will they come into force by the end of the year.

Again, my repeated point is that the Russian Embassy in London states no changes and there have been no reported problems coming from London.

Any Brits having problems when issued a visa from London, please let us know as I haven't seen one yet.

embojangles
20-11-2007, 00:03
What exactly happens to you if you leave after your visa expires? Are you fined/banned from the country/held in immigration/sent to Russian prison?

tgma
20-11-2007, 07:48
If your visa has expired, they won't let you out of the country - they'll send you back to FMS to get a visa extension if you can. Just about the only way to do this is to claim that you have lost your passport and visa - you get an emergency passport, and a piece of paper from your embassy, and this should get you out.
However, if they do track you as outstaying your visa - i.e. if they record the fact if you try to cross the border, then they will just ban you for repeated visa violations.

princeowales
21-11-2007, 01:25
Well, sorry for posting it.Rather than "sorry", why not, "Here's a translation of it"?

ridcully
22-11-2007, 05:09
This is the major confusion. For those who didn't sign the agreement in the EU such as the UK, and the Americans who weren't involved are the laws in force now. Or will they come into force by the end of the year.

Again, my repeated point is that the Russian Embassy in London states no changes and there have been no reported problems coming from London.

Any Brits having problems when issued a visa from London, please let us know as I haven't seen one yet.

I'm a British citizen, with a British passport issued in the UK. I have just arrived back in Moscow (and on the expat forum) after a spell away in the UK and elsewhere.* My old visa expired at the beginning of November - this was a ME official visa, valid for one year from November 2006 and issued in London. The new one (ME business, again issued in London) is valid for one year, and looks identical to the last one. No-one has said anything about 90/180 day limits. No sticker in passport about this. No signs about this (major) change at passport /immigration at Domodedovo, no mention by passport/immigration staff. (And yes, I speak/understand Russian.)

I was planning on long-term rental of a flat, being here more than back in the UK (with Russian g/f), and intending to apply for residency - but all this uncertainty makes me wonder if that's sensible. I'd go ahead and do this if all was a bit clearer! :(

Edit:
And I can't help wondering about the inconsistency of all this. I have just checked the Russian consulate website in London, and noticed that it says:
"When applyng (sic) for multiple, working or student visa you must also submit HIV Test (AIDS) Certificate." (GENERAL INFORMATION (http://rusemblon.org/visa/general_information.htm))
I have never, ever supplied, or been asked for, such a certificate when applying. So has this appeared on the site since I applied (earlier this month), or was I just lucky? Or is this a case of some published information which applies "sometimes", but it's impossible to know when.

* And unable to sleep after the England match last night! :sick:

tgma
22-11-2007, 09:05
It's interesting, but not surprising that the Russian government has issued poor instructions to its functionaries - you may be lucky, and your visa may well run for a year, and allow you to spend more than 90 days out of each 180 day period in the country.
At the moment, it's not clear how all this is going to be enforced - the border guards may keep track of your border crossings, which could cause you problems getting out of the country, if you spend more than 90 days. The FMS will keep track of your registrations, but it is possible to live here without registration. Again, they probably haven't thought it through - they will probably refuse to register you, if that would take you over the 90 days, but it's not clear that they would have the power to deport you.
So you probably can ride with this clean visa, but bear in mind that you might run up against someone who will start to enforce the rules retrospectively, even if there's nothing about it on your visa. And in any case, when you try to renew your visa, probably the UK embassy will have started to apply the new 90/180 days rule by then. So if you want to be here permanently, you'll have to work on a permanent solution, which means either a work permit or residency permit. Probably a good idea to use the "grace period" of your current visa to work on this, as either option takes a few months.

As to the HIV test, I too have never been asked for this in London. I think it's a case of it being the rule that anyone who wants a multi-entry visa has to show this test, but this is selectively applied. A lot has to do with how Russians are treated by the consulate of that country in Moscow. The UK have put a lot of money and effort into improving their consular office in Moscow, and I think that the Russians have responded by allowing their consulate in London to be a bit more lenient.

kazachka
22-11-2007, 12:18
I don't want to screw this up but again I'm getting conflicting reports as to how they are enforcing things. My visa was issued in Sept. I'm in the process of getting a work visa now. So do I indeed have a grace period or do I have to have my a$$ out of here by mid Jan( I returned 13 Oct from the US)?????

ridcully
22-11-2007, 12:30
I don't want to screw this up but again I'm getting conflicting reports as to how they are enforcing things. My visa was issued in Sept. I'm in the process of getting a work visa now. So do I indeed have a grace period or do I have to have my a$$ out of here by mid Jan( I returned 13 Oct from the US)?????

Well, I thought that this post (today) was pretty authoritative:


I, too, just received a ME visa in London with no restrictions. As others have written, the Russian Embassy said the new rules do not apply to British, Irish and Danish citizens since they are not governed by the Schengen accord. They did say they thought this would change in 2008, but for the moment UK citizens are not subject to the new limits.

But if you're not British, Irish or Danish ... :( (maybe!)

kazachka
22-11-2007, 14:30
American...

Mosray
22-11-2007, 17:15
Hi guys.. I am currently making my new Visa ME/BV I was over in prague where I have made my visa for the past 4 years.. I went to the emabssy monday and they have now imposed the new regs 90/180 rule...So I jumped on a plane and came to dublin as they have not signed the new agreement.. I have now got my new visa and it is the standard 365 visa without the infamous line 14 (90/180) rule..

I arrived at the embassy (cons dept) at 10am first in a they made my visa there and then.. I waited 20 mins and was out again..

They charge 200 euro for same day issue (but can cost more depending on nationality I'm a brit)...

Their application form does state you need an address and employment in ireland...but they told me just to put temp address (hotel) where I was staying and my occupation..

Now I just need to see whay happens when I arrive at airport saturday...ie see what they stamp on my passort... By rights as I am English and the new law doesn't apply to us it should be the normal 6months in 1 day out and 6 months back in... I'll let you guys know what happens when I return...;)

Bels
22-11-2007, 19:19
That's what I find confusing. If a Brit or an American has no problems with visas in London or Dublin, some will have problems in other parts of Europe and some won't have the problem of a restricted.

I wonder if other EU member nationalities will have the same un-restricted visas if they applied to London or Dublin Russian consulates. Might be a nice loop-hole for other nationalities. :)

Mosray
23-11-2007, 19:04
Bels, I have an idea EU citizens making a visa in Ireland or UK will not have those restrictions - simply because they do not issue the visa with 90/180 day rule at line 14, because they have not signed the accord...

It would be very hypocritical of them if they issued EU citizens visa's with rule 14 stating 90 day rule.... But that is not to say when myself or anyone that makes a visa in the uk or ireland doesn't get stamped with 90 days on arrival... Like I said I will let you know when I return Saturday (tomorrow)

Stay tuned!

Bels
23-11-2007, 20:18
Good point, however hopefully you will have a positive answer. The same as many Brits and One American has recently claimed. However I'm sure this 90 day rule will come into effect eventually for all. Perhaps by the end of the year.

Wolverine
24-11-2007, 01:58
I went to the emabssy monday and they have now imposed the new regs 90/180 rule...So I jumped on a plane and came to dublin as they have not signed the new agreement.. I have now got my new visa and it is the standard 365 visa without the infamous line 14 (90/180) rule..


If I understand you correctly, visa stickers issued in Prague actually have the 90 day rule printed on them?

andymakesglasses
26-11-2007, 13:44
But that is not to say when myself or anyone that makes a visa in the uk or ireland doesn't get stamped with 90 days on arrival... Like I said I will let you know when I return Saturday (tomorrow)

Stay tuned!

I came to Moscow on Thursday (on a ME business visa issued in October in Edinburgh) and was allowed in as normal with no 90 day restrictions added to my visa

annasophia
26-11-2007, 15:25
I think you all may be miscalculating if you assume that because your visa doesn't specifically state the 180 day thing that you are exempt.

I would guess that national law trumps any lack of restrictions included or not included on the visa itself. And the new law for all ME business visas is 90 days in 90 days out for a 180 day maximum. Period. All ME visas, no matter what nationality you are or where the visa was issued.

I think there are 2 issues being confused:

1. Last summer Russia entered into a visa agreement with a number of EU countries limiting the number of days citizens of those co-signing countries could stay in Russia on a 1 year ME business visa. [I]At that time anyone not from one of those EU countries was immune.

2. Four months later in October, a new regulation was issued extending the 180 day rule to ALL holders of 1 year ME business visas no matter what citizenship they held.

The bottom line certainly seems to be that any holder of a 1 year ME business visa is restricted to the 180 day rule.

Halyavshik
26-11-2007, 15:28
Any visa issued after October 14th, 2007 is subject to the new 90/180 day rule regardless of whether it states that down below or not.

nicklcool
26-11-2007, 16:01
Hi Everyone,

I've been in and out of this forum for the past few weeks, so I'm not sure whether or not this aspect of the new law has been discussed already, but here's another ball buster that's been thrown at all us ex-pats-

Foreigners may only apply for visas (of ANY type) in their home country or a nation in which they have "[legal] status," which seems to have been interpreted to mean that the person can stay in the country MORE THAN 90 days.

I haven't found this (nor very many other) part of the law actually written anywhere, but have been told the same thing by several tourist agencies. I know, all Americans right now are thinking "F**K!! How the hell will I pay for or even just tolerate flying all the way back to the States every 3 months for a visa run!?" Well, here's the good news I found out today, after calling the US Citizen Services branch of the U.S. Embassy and then the Russ Embassy in Kiev--

Americans have this 'status' (=they can stay >90 days) in London, so that's an option for (our now necessary-every-3-months) visa runs, and in Kiev, although they don't have 'status' (cannot stay >90 days sans visa), they can get a visa only after 10 business days (there's no express option), or, if they have a Ukrainian registration in their passports (literally, the woman answering the phone said this shtamp needs to be in the passport!) for MORE than 90 days (which I believe can only be obtained with a business visa), they can get express processing.

So, although I acknowledge the high likelihood that this woman's words aren't binding at all, and they could all be BS :( , it looks like Americans can keep Kiev in mind as a visa-run option. I plan to try, and would recommend, getting a multiple entry 1 year bus Ukrainian visa, to ease the pain of leaving Russian every three months when one's bus visa expires. I would like to note, though, that I have in no way confirmed whether such a visa satisfies this new 'status' requisite-and shocker if it doesn't!

Hope this helps, and good luck to all!

(Oh yea, my sad history?? Came to RUssia Jun 17 on a guest (homestay-3 mos) visa, and in mid August, when I prepared to leave to get a ME 1yr bus visa, the kind people at Intel Service Center told me that a new law was passed (the 90-90 thing) preventing my from staying in the country continuously for the whole year. A lovely bunch, they are! Now, I understand that at that point (my old visa expired Sept 17), I most definitely WAS still allowed to get the 1 year without restrictions!! So....that really sucked. Yea, so NEVER USE that company (INTEL SERVICE CENTER), they're really just clueless.

Oh well, at least I won't have to return to the States every 3 months... [fingers crossed, spitting over shoulder and knocking on wood, Russian style]

annasophia
26-11-2007, 16:11
Although I wish you the best of luck....

I don't think that going to Kiev every 3 months is gonna help you any. 180 days per year in 90 day stretches is all you can stay in Russia on a business visa. I think getting a new visa every 90 days is not going to change the maximum length of stay you are allowed per year, no matter how many visas you have.

Bels
26-11-2007, 19:24
I'm British. Let's all state our nationality and where we got our visas from. I am no longer affected, Thank goodness as I recently got my residency. But I still take an interest in avoiding confusion that others have.

I go this direction for the time being. Your English communication is with the Embassy that you apply for the visa. These are the people that should. This nonsense about hidden authorities sending laws in Russian is not our fault. The ones who issues our visas are the ones who should enforce these laws, and guide us of those most confusing laws.

My info is from the London Russian Embassy, and they state no changes for Brits. There has also been one American who applied there who claims he has no restriction. There is only one Brit who applied from London who claims a 90 day restriction so far. The overwhelming majority claim no changes and they made there enquiries.

I suggest follow the place where you apply for your visa. Yes no doubt changes will affect all eventually.

Halyavshik
26-11-2007, 19:40
I plan to try, and would recommend, getting a multiple entry 1 year bus Ukrainian visa, to ease the pain of leaving Russian every three months when one's bus visa expires. I would like to note, though, that I have in no way confirmed whether such a visa satisfies this new 'status' requisite-and shocker if it doesn't!

You can do Kiev (or Belarus for that matter, if you have a visa for there), and while I haven't added up the costs, it seems to me that having to stay there for 10-12 days PLUS the visa costs and PLUS the airfare, you're gonna end up paying nearly as much (if not more, depending on what level hotel you stay in) as you would going to the US and doing it in one or two days.

sparkyal
27-11-2007, 08:44
This is how i understand it.

according to a russian lawyer in St Pete (I did not speak with him directly but a friend of mine did) that the 90/180 days law is targeting the EU but at the time the Brits are not effected. He also stated that it does not appear as though the Americans are effected either (not part of the EU at all obviously).

According to the American embassy in Moscow from an email message from them (I'm American) this is what they said:

Not surprisingly, during the webchat many of you expressed concern about the new Russian visa regulations. We have been monitoring this issue closely, and have been in contact with Russian government officials in an attempt to clarify the new rules. There are still many unanswered questions, and we are trying to get a complete picture of exactly how these new regulations will affect U.S. citizens in the Russian Federation.

As I said in the webchat, for now, there are three key changes for American citizens to bear in mind: First, if your visa expires, you must seek a new one from the Federal Migration Service, unless the visa has expired within the last three days. In that case, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs may issue a new visa. Whatever your situation, please be aware that any foreigner with an expired visa in the Russian Federation, even a visa expired for just one day, can face a considerable delay in leaving the country.

The second change has to do with where a person can apply for a visa. There are some narrow exceptions, but essentially, any foreigner now has to apply for a Russian visa either in their home country, or in a country where they are permitted a stay of more than 90 days. We have canvassed the entry regulations for U.S. citizens for nearby countries, and the only country where U.S. citizens are regularly admitted for more than 90 days is Great Britain. I would nevertheless caution anyone considering applying for a new visa at the Russian Embassy in London to check first, and make sure that your application will be accepted.

The third change has to do with those on a Regular visa. Except for the student and employment categories, visa holders in this group may now only spend 90 days in Russia in a 180-day period. We do not know how current visa holders will be grandfathered, and there may be some uneven implementation of this new requirement. Please be aware, however, that this is what the new regulations indicate, and potentially, the penalty for non-compliance is a five-year ban from the Russian Federation.

Until we have a better sense of how these rules will be implemented, I recommend that all U.S. citizens in the Russian Federation check with their visa sponsors regularly, and make sure that they are in compliance with Russian law. When we have a more definitive picture of the new law, we will send out additional warden messages and post the information on our website. In the meantime, you can also get information (in Russian) from the website of the Federal Migration Service, at: (http://www.fms.gov.ru).


so, basically, they are not sure either. And since some people DO have a 90/180 day restriction on their visa we can assume that if the Brits or Americans were currently restricted they would also have the restriction on their visa. this is a VISA regulation, not REGISTRATION. so, I think they would put the restriction on the visa where it belongs.

so, at this time it does not look like the rule has been applied to Brits or Americans as of yet.

davtan
07-12-2007, 21:53
Sorry to say that it does include us Brits now also , as i have just returned from England on Wednesday with my new visa , "and" it included the new 90/180 day rule on it .





This is how i understand it.

according to a russian lawyer in St Pete (I did not speak with him directly but a friend of mine did) that the 90/180 days law is targeting the EU but at the time the Brits are not effected. He also stated that it does not appear as though the Americans are effected either (not part of the EU at all obviously).

According to the American embassy in Moscow from an email message from them (I'm American) this is what they said:

Not surprisingly, during the webchat many of you expressed concern about the new Russian visa regulations. We have been monitoring this issue closely, and have been in contact with Russian government officials in an attempt to clarify the new rules. There are still many unanswered questions, and we are trying to get a complete picture of exactly how these new regulations will affect U.S. citizens in the Russian Federation.

As I said in the webchat, for now, there are three key changes for American citizens to bear in mind: First, if your visa expires, you must seek a new one from the Federal Migration Service, unless the visa has expired within the last three days. In that case, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs may issue a new visa. Whatever your situation, please be aware that any foreigner with an expired visa in the Russian Federation, even a visa expired for just one day, can face a considerable delay in leaving the country.

The second change has to do with where a person can apply for a visa. There are some narrow exceptions, but essentially, any foreigner now has to apply for a Russian visa either in their home country, or in a country where they are permitted a stay of more than 90 days. We have canvassed the entry regulations for U.S. citizens for nearby countries, and the only country where U.S. citizens are regularly admitted for more than 90 days is Great Britain. I would nevertheless caution anyone considering applying for a new visa at the Russian Embassy in London to check first, and make sure that your application will be accepted.

The third change has to do with those on a Regular visa. Except for the student and employment categories, visa holders in this group may now only spend 90 days in Russia in a 180-day period. We do not know how current visa holders will be grandfathered, and there may be some uneven implementation of this new requirement. Please be aware, however, that this is what the new regulations indicate, and potentially, the penalty for non-compliance is a five-year ban from the Russian Federation.

Until we have a better sense of how these rules will be implemented, I recommend that all U.S. citizens in the Russian Federation check with their visa sponsors regularly, and make sure that they are in compliance with Russian law. When we have a more definitive picture of the new law, we will send out additional warden messages and post the information on our website. In the meantime, you can also get information (in Russian) from the website of the Federal Migration Service, at: (http://www.fms.gov.ru).


so, basically, they are not sure either. And since some people DO have a 90/180 day restriction on their visa we can assume that if the Brits or Americans were currently restricted they would also have the restriction on their visa. this is a VISA regulation, not REGISTRATION. so, I think they would put the restriction on the visa where it belongs.

so, at this time it does not look like the rule has been applied to Brits or Americans as of yet.

Bels
07-12-2007, 22:48
Sorry to say that it does include us Brits now also , as i have just returned from England on Wednesday with my new visa , "and" it included the new 90/180 day rule on it .

Ouch! I thought that with the Brits refusing the agreement and that we look after our Russian consulates and Russian citizens very well in our country, I thought we were going to be an exception. Did you know that Russians can have good Russian residence in London at a good price for example. And that their buildings are of palace standards. They have been treated extremely well due to to past history. They are in prime area of London.

davtan
08-12-2007, 00:01
Ouch! I thought that with the Brits refusing the agreement and that we look after our Russian consulates and Russian citizens very well in our country, I thought we were going to be an exception. Did you know that Russians can have good Russian residence in London at a good price for example. And that their buildings are of palace standards. They have been treated extremely well due to to past history. They are in prime area of London.



Tell me about it , i was in the "Royal Hyde Park hotel " on Queensway (Bayswater) and 8out of 10 of the staff were Russian !!. There is even a Russian souvenier shop that sold things you would only buy on Starry Arbat !!!
Even a shop selling just Russian DVD'S and video's :fridaysign:

ISPMAN
06-02-2008, 15:06
Hello Folks,

I have been living in Russia for many of years and running a ISP company. So this makes me worry as much as you all about this new law. Well after I did some researches and made some phone calls. Here is what i found out about the law.

1) It does effect all Tom, Dick, Harry ,Sally, And Maryjane, and Yes this mean you too.
2) The law does not effect you if and only if you had a visa issuesed to you before Oct 17th date, and if your visa didn't have a 90 stamp restriction on it. The meaning all Citzs, that are not EU and had the visa before Oct17th 2007 will not be effected.

You can leave at the six month mark and return on the same day. Now- after your current visa finish and you go get a new on make sure you pack light for the trip to Russia, as you will not be able to stay more then 90 days in a 6 months period. Your new visa will be for sure 100% stamp with the 90 max no matter who you are.

These are the facts and they can not be debuted the law of Russia has been set f*** us all. I posted a version of the office law document it's in Russian

kapione
24-02-2008, 14:51
the info above posted was directly from Visa company that sposored me my 2nd visa Website , it isnt intel services , but Visa House Intel services said all the same information

kapione
24-02-2008, 17:17
my above information wasnt from the Moscow times
but websites from Visa companies I have done business with

phoenixsampras
24-02-2008, 18:01
Although I wish you the best of luck....

I don't think that going to Kiev every 3 months is gonna help you any. 180 days per year in 90 day stretches is all you can stay in Russia on a business visa. I think getting a new visa every 90 days is not going to change the maximum length of stay you are allowed per year, no matter how many visas you have.

Thank God i have residency, Sdarovya!!

Oh dammit this is moscow not miami!!

Bels
24-02-2008, 20:45
Thank God i have residency, Sdarovya!!

Oh dammit this is moscow not miami!!

I'm with you :) Thank you I've got residency. Perhaps we should open a new thread of who's got residency here or who are on the way with their application in. Even getting your application accepted to be considered is a big step, because it's such a relief into which you have done to f=get to that stage.

And those members I request that when reach that stage let us know, because fireworks, and champagne are well deserved at this time.

Sorry Kapione, I am no longer one of the experts in this area, because I know longer experience such problems, but I do keep an eye on the posts.

Why, because I like to know all you expats are getting on.

You Kapione, are now one of these experts until you get your residency and I ask you to help them out with your truthful experiences.

However, I still haven't seen any negative experience of posts coming from Americans or Brits who have applied for a visa in London, and I will keep my on such threads to see if things do change, due to new laws.

phoenixsampras
25-02-2008, 21:10
I'm with you :) Thank you I've got residency. Perhaps we should open a new thread of who's got residency here or who are on the way with their application in. Even getting your application accepted to be considered is a big step, because it's such a relief into which you have done to f=get to that stage.

And those members I request that when reach that stage let us know, because fireworks, and champagne are well deserved at this time.

Sorry Kapione, I am no longer one of the experts in this area, because I know longer experience such problems, but I do keep an eye on the posts.

Why, because I like to know all you expats are getting on.

You Kapione, are now one of these experts until you get your residency and I ask you to help them out with your truthful experiences.

However, I still haven't seen any negative experience of posts coming from Americans or Brits who have applied for a visa in London, and I will keep my on such threads to see if things do change, due to new laws.

Agreed, command general.

Swarbs
05-03-2008, 14:22
Ok, I have completely missed the boat on these new visa regulations. I was under the impression that it was similar to other countries - you can only stay for up to 90 days and then you have to leave but can come back pretty much straight away. Obviously not.

My big problem is:

- I'm a UK citizen, whose current 1 year Russian business visa expires soon. I'm getting a new one from the Russian embassy in London on the 8th April. I assume it will have the 90/180 day restriction.
- My Russian wife is having a baby, in Russia, in June.
- I work freelance, so my chances of getting a work permit are pretty much zero.

So basically, these new rules mean that I will only be able to see my wife and daughter for about three of the six months between April and October? Is there any way around this using visas? Things I have thought of:

- Apply for a private visa for the three months from July to September. Use business visa from April to June and private visa for Jul - Sept. Will this work?
- Claim no knowledge of the rules. Probably create a(nother) diplomatic incident between Russia and the UK and be banned from Russia for life. Not ideal.
- Apply for temporary residency. Be in a visa queue when my daughter is born. Obtain the permit in September, just in time for us to my daughter to be able to travel. Lose the permit within a couple of years cos I won't be in Russia for six months of every year.

The only other alternatives I can see are:

- decamp to the UK, screwing up all our carefully made plans and leaving my mother in law to care for herself for six months. Not ideal.
- bring my wife to the UK as soon as her maternity leave starts. Rush back to Russia just before she hits 35 weeks and can't fly. Have the baby, come back to the UK whilst she's still very young. Run the risk of her being born on the plane. Also not ideal.
- Bite the bullet and accept that I'm going to miss a large part of my wife's pregnancy and some of the most important parts of my daughter's life. I know that this happens to lots of people, but usually cos they're fighting in wars, not cos some petty bureaucrat wants to stop people working without residency.

As an aside, and to vent some steam, is it any wonder Russia has a massive demographic crisis? My wife and I are both educated and have well paid jobs. And now we have the choice of living in the UK, where we both have residency and can come and go as we please, or Russia, where I don't even have the right to live for more than three but less than six months in the year.

Ok, rant over, please can anyone suggest anything that might help?

Many thanks

Matt

Guest
05-03-2008, 15:02
or Russia, where I don't even have the right to live for more than three but less than six months in the year.


You HAVE the right assuming you follow the local laws, as a non-brit has the right to stay in England ACCORDING TO the british laws.

DJ Biscuit
05-03-2008, 18:22
The law applies to the person and not the visa, getting a different visa to fill in the gaps won't work.

You would take a dim view if someone tried to do that to get around the law to stay in England I am sure. The law is based on EEC law BTW.

Best bet is to get residency or registered with a company and go through the work permit then work visa process. I am currently updating mine, I think it is fair that I pay tax in the country I live and earn my living in so have no problems with that, I can recommend the agency that are doing this for my company but first I guess you need to find that job, which is the sticking point of course for so many freelancers.

Swarbs
05-03-2008, 19:02
Guest - well that was a useful reply, thanks very much. Under EU law, my wife now has a spouse visa which gives her the right to live and work in the UK, or anywhere in the EU, for as long as she wants. Of course under Russian law:

"marriage to a Russian citizen does not give a foreigner rights in obtaining residence permit"
Direct quote from an e-mail sent to me by the Russian embassy.

And no, I don't have the right to live in Russia for four months in a row and then leave for eight months - neither a visa nor a temporary residence permit will allow me to do that.

Oh and my wife, who is a Russian national and an ardent Putin supporter, believes that this is facism (her words) and is now considering leaving the country she loves thanks to this law. So the population of Russia goes down by another two people.

Oh, and I should be clear about this. I am not anti-Russia. I think Russia is one of the greatest countries on earth and the Russian people are some of the strongest in history. I am simply against some of the policies of the current Russian government, and think they should do more to keep improving life in Russia rather than shouting about how great they are and how bad everyone else is. But then the same could be said about any government, particularily the US and UK ones.


DJ Buscuit, thanks for the advice - I didn't think you could change visa to extend your stay within the boundaries of the law. Although it's not EEC / EU law, it's the Schengen agreement. Which Britain didn't sign up to. Any British visa: tourist, business or otherwise, allows the bearer to stay in the UK for the full duration of the visa with no restrictions. It's nice to see that Russia is very happy to mirror the Schengen rules on standard visas, but completely unwilling to mirror them when it comes to settlement for spouses.

And I am more than willing to live, work and pay tax in Russia. In fact, I would love to pay tax in Russia as it's much less than I pay at the moment! Only problem is that the Russian government don't seem to want me to! My job makes it near impossible to get a temporary residence permit, and the Russian government refuses to give work permits to self employed people. Hence my problem.

Ironically enough, if I was going the other way, I'd be able to apply for a work permit through the UK Highly Skilled Migrant Program. Just my luck!

Guest
05-03-2008, 19:07
The law applies to the person and not the visa, getting a different visa to fill in the gaps won't work.

Yes and that's why when I read some posts saying "just make a new personal visa" every 3 months, I wonder if the guys really understand that it could finish with a deported and banned status!


As you say, go RP!

Guest
05-03-2008, 19:15
Swarbs,

> "marriage to a Russian citizen does not give a foreigner rights in obtaining residence permit"

Right, but it gives the right to get a RP without quota.

> And no, I don't have the right to live in Russia for four months in a row and then leave for eight months - neither a visa nor a temporary residence permit will allow me to do that.


A (temp) RP allows this, for sure. But you would then lose it if you are out of Russia during a so long time.


> Oh and my wife, who is a Russian national and an ardent Putin supporter, believes that this is facism (her words) and is now considering leaving the country she loves thanks to this law.


oh oh :) If she loves her country, she won't leave for this problem! She has to think that until today, the law was a lot more liberal here than in any western country with the ME visas, and people were used to stay here years and years with just this visa. Now the law has changed and looks more like the western countries laws, foreigners just have to adapt their case, that is all.

Get a RP and all will be ok for your family!


> DJ Buscuit, thanks for the advice - I didn't think you could change visa to extend your stay within the boundaries of the law. Although it's not EEC / EU law, it's the Schengen agreement. Which Britain didn't sign up to. Any British visa: tourist, business or otherwise, allows the bearer to stay in the UK for the full duration of the visa with no restrictions.


And can a Russian for example get a one year visa in England and so stay there one year? Probably students, but more probably it is harder generally speaking to get a one year visa there, than for Russia!


> And I am more than willing to live, work and pay tax in Russia. In fact, I would love to pay tax in Russia as it's much less than I pay at the moment! Only problem is that the Russian government don't seem to want me to! My job makes it near impossible to get a temporary residence permit, and the Russian government refuses to give work permits to self employed people. Hence my problem.


You take the problem by the bad side: Follow the rules, and then you will have the right to pay taxes :)

Temp RP do NOT depend of the job, even a non worker may get one. And with a RP you may work, so your problem will be solved.

Bels
05-03-2008, 19:47
Guest, are you saying that those with spouses can no longer get a personal invitation from their own spouses. And that spouses have to suffer these 90 days in and ninety days out just like a business visa ??? Are you sure that a spouse cant return immediately to their wife and baby for three months ????

Because that would be horrific news for Russian families and their dependant spouses.Especially when the families are applying for residency of which is a long slow painful process.

Do you realease that a spouse can take as little as 48 hours as against more than six months here. Now how's that for efficiency?

Bels
05-03-2008, 19:54
Through the grapevine in my area. A turkish guy with a Russian wife, he has a private invitation visa, he leaves Russia every three months and immediately return to Russia every three months. No problem. He is currently applying for residency.

DJ Biscuit
05-03-2008, 19:56
Okay, yes it's Shengen not UK. But it is wrong to say in this country we do it that way so why don't they do it our way. In that case Russians can argue the same the other way round, Every country has its own laws - some good some bad, again depends from where you are looking but there are some laws here that Britain doesn't have that might be good for Britain and vice versa but that's not the way it works. What may be good for you may be bad for someone else thus you cannot please and protect, care and cater to everybody.

It's a pain in the proverbial I agree but while here we must and should and have to adapt to the regulations, the alternative is deportation or simply leaving. We may argue that it is wrong and unfair but as we are not citizens of this country we have to live by the laws designed (ostensibly at least) for the citizens.

As to tax, yes it is lower, but I believe on a work visa for the first 6 months foreigners pay something like three times more tax than locals. I cannot be too sure but this is what I have heard recently.

Swarbs
05-03-2008, 20:14
Guest

"A (temp) RP allows this, for sure. But you would then lose it if you are out of Russia during a so long time."
- And lose the right to Russian residency permanently as a result. Hardly an ideal solution!

"If she loves her country, she won't leave for this problem!"
- She just loves me more. And I'm not the one saying she can only visit her country for three months in every six and no more than six months in a year.

"And can a Russian for example get a one year visa in England and so stay there one year?"
- Yes. Read HomeUKvisas (http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk:)
"With a visit visa you can usually enter and leave the UK any number of times while the visa is still valid. You cannot stay for longer than six months on each visit. Visit visas can be valid for six months, one year, two years, five years or 10 years. You can apply for a visa valid for any of these periods."
My wife got a six month visa within a week of applying - your visas get extended with each one you apply for. And yes, she would have to leave after six months but could then come back straight away. Yes, the UK visa application process is longer and more complex, but nowhere near as bad as the Russian RP process!!

"Follow the rules, and then you will have the right to pay taxes "
- The right to pay taxes?!? Have you been drinking? ;)

Bels - please read my first post. That's exactly the horrific situation we're in right now. My wife has been in tears all day since we found out.

Please Please Please can you put your Turkish friend in contact with me? That might be my only chance to see my daughter consistently for the next six months! Please PM me his e-mail address.

DJ Buscuit - I'm not saying Russia has to do it the same way we do. I just think it's a bit hypocritical to change the law so it's standardised with Schengen countries and then use the same law to create an asymmetric relationship with other countries! But, as you rightly point out, that's politics whether you're in Russia, UK or anywhere else!

And honestly, I'd still happily pay three times as much tax for the next six months to see my baby girl.

Bels
05-03-2008, 20:18
Guest you also brought up another issue. Do those with temporary residency have the freedom to work with any company, in any area.? For example if they reside in the oblast do they have the right to work without another permit in Moscow central for example?

Answers to these questions might remove a few myths that have been previously posted.

Yes it does feel like this sometimes :rant:

And guest there are very good reasons why Westerners are used to relaxed entries into countries internationally. And because of this you should forgive them for their mentality. Are you jealous?

Bels
05-03-2008, 20:55
Guest - well that was a useful reply, thanks very much. Under EU law, my wife now has a spouse visa which gives her the right to live and work in the UK, or anywhere in the EU, for as long as she wants. Of course under Russian law:

"marriage to a Russian citizen does not give a foreigner rights in obtaining residence permit"
Direct quote from an e-mail sent to me by the Russian embassy.

And no, I don't have the right to live in Russia for four months in a row and then leave for eight months - neither a visa nor a temporary residence permit will allow me to do that.

Oh and my wife, who is a Russian national and an ardent Putin supporter, believes that this is facism (her words) and is now considering leaving the country she loves thanks to this law. So the population of Russia goes down by another two people.

Oh, and I should be clear about this. I am not anti-Russia. I think Russia is one of the greatest countries on earth and the Russian people are some of the strongest in history. I am simply against some of the policies of the current Russian government, and think they should do more to keep improving life in Russia rather than shouting about how great they are and how bad everyone else is. But then the same could be said about any government, particularily the US and UK ones.


DJ Buscuit, thanks for the advice - I didn't think you could change visa to extend your stay within the boundaries of the law. Although it's not EEC / EU law, it's the Schengen agreement. Which Britain didn't sign up to. Any British visa: tourist, business or otherwise, allows the bearer to stay in the UK for the full duration of the visa with no restrictions. It's nice to see that Russia is very happy to mirror the Schengen rules on standard visas, but completely unwilling to mirror them when it comes to settlement for spouses.

And I am more than willing to live, work and pay tax in Russia. In fact, I would love to pay tax in Russia as it's much less than I pay at the moment! Only problem is that the Russian government don't seem to want me to! My job makes it near impossible to get a temporary residence permit, and the Russian government refuses to give work permits to self employed people. Hence my problem.

Ironically enough, if I was going the other way, I'd be able to apply for a work permit through the UK Highly Skilled Migrant Program. Just my luck!


Quote from what I've boldened : my Russian wife had an entrepeneurs licence to work legally self employed in Russia. I now also have one and having to pay taxes at 6%. There's no problem in applying for residency as a legally self employed person or freelancer. Because that's the way I did it. We are both self employed and prefer to work for ourselves for obvious reasons, that they pay garbage in our profession, and pay much more direct.

The income can come from any one of your spouses or both if you're both legally working in any way.

To summarise: No problem for self employed

Guest
05-03-2008, 21:10
RP gives the right towork in the region you are registered, if I remember. I *think* Moscow and MO are considered as the same region. But ask your FMS office.

About the 3 months + 3 months + 3 months etc etc visa game: I am not sure it is legal in the MIND of those who made the new law. Their goal was/is to make people who stay in Russia "a few months" or more, a residence permit. That is why they limited the ME visa, famous for the abuse it offered. I am really not sure that making the "3 months visa game" a few times won't bring the guy into problems.

Swarbs, sorry to tellt his but you are losing your time by saying "it is bad, etc etc". It is like it is. Don't take it bad, but concentrate on getting a RP. YES you will have to stay at least 6 months. But after all, you say you want to be with your family, so make your choice!

There are thousands of non-Russians married with a Russian citizen, they for most of them follow the rules and live together here without ANY problem.

Happy your wife got a UK visa so well, I know a Russian girl who is waiting her visa since a while to visit her husband currently in England. So finally guess what? HE decided to come and apply here for a RP :)

The right to pay taxes, yes :D I think there is an agreement to avoid double taxation between Russian and England, no? So better paying here, our famous 13% are attractive :)

Swarbs, don't anyway forget that in Russia there is always a way to solve a problem. But anyway, at the end, you should decide where you want stay: Here, or not. If here, comply with the rules. Bad or good, so they are.

Bels, I am jealous of what? Of decadent western countries? LOL :D

Bels
05-03-2008, 22:09
We are not all that decadent :) Depends which west you are talking about. Yes referendum problems in EU :) But it'll be sorted. Britain with an oncoming election with conservative as favourite. Britain concerned about the 285,000 immigrants coming in per year and can't be stopped even with new tougher immigration laws. Because of EU rights. WOW if conservative get in and with many of them believing we don't need the EU? But I wouldn't call it decadent, as it might well be more progressive for us all. But WOW! wouldn't the great econiical statstics drop violently if Great Britainb pulls out?


Guest - well that was a useful reply, thanks very much. Under EU law, my wife now has a spouse visa which gives her the right to live and work in the UK, or anywhere in the EU, for as long as she wants. Of course under Russian law:

"marriage to a Russian citizen does not give a foreigner rights in obtaining residence permit"
Direct quote from an e-mail sent to me by the Russian embassy.

And no, I don't have the right to live in Russia for four months in a row and then leave for eight months - neither a visa nor a temporary residence permit will allow me to do that.

Oh and my wife, who is a Russian national and an ardent Putin supporter, believes that this is facism (her words) and is now considering leaving the country she loves thanks to this law. So the population of Russia goes down by another two people.

Oh, and I should be clear about this. I am not anti-Russia. I think Russia is one of the greatest countries on earth and the Russian people are some of the strongest in history. I am simply against some of the policies of the current Russian government, and think they should do more to keep improving life in Russia rather than shouting about how great they are and how bad everyone else is. But then the same could be said about any government, particularily the US and UK ones.


DJ Buscuit, thanks for the advice - I didn't think you could change visa to extend your stay within the boundaries of the law. Although it's not EEC / EU law, it's the Schengen agreement. Which Britain didn't sign up to. Any British visa: tourist, business or otherwise, allows the bearer to stay in the UK for the full duration of the visa with no restrictions. It's nice to see that Russia is very happy to mirror the Schengen rules on standard visas, but completely unwilling to mirror them when it comes to settlement for spouses.

And I am more than willing to live, work and pay tax in Russia. In fact, I would love to pay tax in Russia as it's much less than I pay at the moment! Only problem is that the Russian government don't seem to want me to! My job makes it near impossible to get a temporary residence permit, and the Russian government refuses to give work permits to self employed people. Hence my problem.

Ironically enough, if I was going the other way, I'd be able to apply for a work permit through the UK Highly Skilled Migrant Program. Just my luck!

Swarbs
05-03-2008, 22:58
Bels

Sorry, my bad wording. It's not a problem with the temporary residence permit, it's the fact that I'm a writer and have to travel quite a lot, including spending a lot of time in the UK. As such, the chances are if I apply for TRP I may be out of Russia for more than 6 months and will lose RP forever. Also, given it takes around 6 months to get a TP, it doesn't help me with the baby being born in June!

Guest

Actually it's you who's wasting time. I came on the forum looking for solutions to my problem. So far you've provided absolutely none. In constrast, the 3 months - 3 months - 3 months is perfectly within the rules. The 90 days only applies to multiple entry visas: six and twelve month visas. As such, with a constant stream of three month visas, be they business or private, I should be fine! Famous last words... ;) And yes, I want to be with my family. But not on the streets where we will be if I lose my job whilst my wife is on her 6,000 RUR / month state maternity pay.

Bad news about the Russian girl you know, hope it comes through soon. We went for the information overload approach - filled the application envelope with copies of photos, details of phone calls, e-mails, and flight bookings. I think they approved it just to get rid of us! :)

Oh, and your famous 13% taxes might not be all that appealing after all - I don't think you can claim on expenses etc on them, which doesn't make it much better than paying 20% on net earnings in the UK. Still, it's all academic until I can apply for a residence permit and maintain my freedom of movement!

One last thing - if the goal is to get people who come for more than a few months to get a residence permit....why do they have such low quotas?!? Yet another highly logical decision from the politicians!

Bels
05-03-2008, 23:43
Yes, it no appears to be more complicated than I thought . But let's keep trying for a solution.:uk:

You're a Brit , yes? We'll get their in the end. :)

Swarbs
06-03-2008, 00:12
Lol yes, British born and bred! But spending as much time as I can in Russia!

And yes, we'll get there in the end. Just our luck that the changes come in at the worst possible time! Three months later and the baby would be born and everything would be fine!!

Here's hoping the queues for private invitations at OVIR aren't too long at the moment. Or the embassy doesn't whinge when I apply for two three month visas in a row!

Thanks for all the advice! See my PM - maybe you can help a bit more? :mml:

Guest
06-03-2008, 08:29
Actually it's you who's wasting time. I came on the forum looking for solutions to my problem. So far you've provided absolutely none. In constrast, the 3 months - 3 months - 3 months is perfectly within the rules. The 90 days only applies to multiple entry visas: six and twelve month visas. As such, with a constant stream of three month visas, be they business or private, I should be fine! Famous last words...


Which solution could I provide as there is no visa that matches your requirements, in short you would like to come here and stay when you want, and go back to your country when you want without delay problems.

NO visa allows you to stay more than 90/180 days, despite what agencies can say. Ask clearly the central FMS "And if I get 3 months private visa, then go back and apply again, I can stay 360 days by year, right?"

You will see their reply.

RP is not good for you as if I understand, you also do not want to stay too long time in Russia. So you would finally lose it.

WP is not good for you as you are a self-employed,

So finally? Which solution could anybody suggest? I don't work for any agency that would recommend you anything to make money with you! You want to live HERE, you have to comply with the rules HERE, even if you think they are bad. When I apply for a visa for abroad, I do not lose time by complaining about the requirements even if I think they are stupid, I know them and comply with them.



One last thing - if the goal is to get people who come for more than a few months to get a residence permit....why do they have such low quotas?!? Yet another highly logical decision from the politicians!

The goal is not to attract a lot of people, but to make the people who come to live here get a RP. Once more, law is like this. Get our citizenship, be a candidate, be elected and change the laws!

smatts
06-03-2008, 09:13
Hmmmmm. I have a hard time taking someone seriously (Guest) when they include a Putin quote in their signature saying that Russia is going to torture people. Is that also how you choose to relate to expats?

Swarbs
06-03-2008, 10:33
Guest

So what does it say on the FMS page? Because the title of this post is "New law for Multiple Entry Business Visas. Is a private visa a multiple entry business visa? You claim to know the laws of Russia, but clearly have no idea about the visa regime. Hence you continue to argue that people won't be able to use three month visas, in spite of the fact that many people already are doing! If you don't have anything useful to say...

Oh, and you have to comply with the rules here do you?!? Ask that to anyone who has ever bought an 'official' business invitation to Russia from a company on the internet! Or anyone who has chosen not to stay in their 'official' hotel when they booked a tourist visa.

Oh and: "Once more, law is like this. Get our citizenship, be a candidate, be elected and change the laws!"
I can't - Russia has now changed its laws so dual citizenship is banned. So I can never be a Russian citizen without first renouncing my UK citizenship. You're probably the only person in the world who thinks that makes sense. But then again, if smatts is right, you're also in favour of torture. Why not just leave the expat board to the expats?

Bels
06-03-2008, 10:39
Can someone make spomething absolutely clear to me. as I might be out of date with my experiences in the late year of 2007. If you go for the 90 day personal invitation will you be able to leave Russia to your own country and after another application return to Russia possibly within 2-3 days?

And with no 90 days in and no 90 days out. I can't see from you Guest an absolute clear answer on this, as your statement has been confused with a question mark.

In London Russian embassy you can successfully get a visa on the same day, and then immediately return to Russia.

Guest
06-03-2008, 11:07
Hmmmmm. I have a hard time taking someone seriously (Guest) when they include a Putin quote in their signature saying that Russia is going to torture people. Is that also how you choose to relate to expats?


What's this crap? Are you able to read and understand Russian?

No torture here, just elimination.
No "people" here, just terrorists. They are not "people".

So what's your problem? And don't worry about my relations with expats, if I spend time here it means that I have some consideration for them (unless some particular ones who know this :D)

Guest
06-03-2008, 11:18
> You claim to know the laws of Russia, but clearly have no idea about the visa regime.

LOL, the best joke I read here since a while :)


> Hence you continue to argue that people won't be able to use three month visas, in spite of the fact that many people already are doing!

A lot of people are also working with ME visa, yes I know. It does not mean that it is legal.


> Oh, and you have to comply with the rules here do you?!? Ask that to anyone who has ever bought an 'official' business invitation to Russia from a company on the internet! Or anyone who has chosen not to stay in their 'official' hotel when they booked a tourist visa.

I also know a market when you can buy a Russian passport for a few thousands rubles.


> If you don't have anything useful to say...

You would like I cry with you "ohhh those Russian laws are soooo bad", sorry no :)


> Oh and: "Once more, law is like this. Get our citizenship, be a candidate, be elected and change the laws!"
> I can't - Russia has now changed its laws so dual citizenship is banned.


When did Russia CHANGED the rule about this? It is like this since a LONG time.


> But then again, if smatts is right, you're also in favour of torture.

Lean Russian, try to THINK about what a sentence means, then come back.


> Why not just leave the expat board to the expats?

Just because most of expats are not always crying about the bad Russian visa rules. Moreover as you told that your visa ends in April, you had TIME to try to find a solution earlier, as the 90/180 days rule came a few months ago already. And I know a lot of expats having a wife and/or a baby here , they calmly solved their problem in time, and never came here to play the victims. Question of temperament...

Guest
06-03-2008, 11:21
Can someone make spomething absolutely clear to me. as I might be out of date with my experiences in the late year of 2007. If you go for the 90 day personal invitation will you be able to leave Russia to your own country and after another application return to Russia possibly within 2-3 days?

And with no 90 days in and no 90 days out. I can't see from you Guest an absolute clear answer on this, as your statement has been confused with a question mark.


Ask our Expert Sawrbs :D

As he admitted that I know nothing about the visa regime, sorry I cannot reply :snoring:

Swarbs
06-03-2008, 14:40
Bels

There is nothing (apart from Guest ;) ) to indicate that the new laws affect private visas. The FMS regulation clearly refers to multiple entry business visas. It basically seems to be an attempt to stop language teachers sneaking under the WP radar and evading taxes. The three month business visa loophole is within the letter of the law but, as Guest pointed out, probably not within the spirit! I guess after you've applied for your third or fourth three month visa someone might get suspicious! And after that's happened for a few more years, someone will probably get smart and the law will be changed again! But I can't see them clamping down straight away on private visas to visit a spouse or relative, especially if youre in the midst of an RP application. Of course this all depends on the 828,000 bureaucrats in Russia, all of which will probably have different interpretations of the "value" ($$$$$!!!!) of this law...

Guest

"When did Russia CHANGED the rule about this? It is like this since a LONG time."

Federal Law No. 62-FZ OF 31st May 2002. Guess it depends what you mean by a long time. I define a long time in policy terms as the time between changes in government. So this rule is a relatively short term one ;)

"You would like I cry with you "ohhh those Russian laws are soooo bad""

Actually no, I would either like you to suggest something useful (as Bels has done), or leave this debate to people who want to answer the original question. I'm not here to play the victim - I'm here to learn how beat the system, within the boundaries of the law. Millions of people do it every year, in every country, so it doesn't really make me unique!

Bels
06-03-2008, 18:04
It really must be introduced that there are many here trying to live legally within the law, whether it be by business or personal invitation visas, work permits or residency, or a combination of all.

Due to constant erratic changes of the law, with no great effort from the Russian to make these laws clearly enforcable. And what I mean by this is know great efforts have been made to ensure that foreigners know about these laws, and that no other language is ever used except Russian. Even the ones responsible who are responsible contradict each other and the current laws.

So it's no wonder that expats here do get a bit frustrated when they try to keep within the law, and in return they are provided with a poor service. Many of them have Russian families with babies or babies on the way.

So hopefully you understand why both Expats and their Russian families get so frustrated at times. But I'm sure they will all do their best to make things happen, and somehow live legally here the best way they can.

Swarbs
06-03-2008, 18:55
Bels

Very good post, and a very good point to make. I don't want to break the law, I just want to understand the law!

And I've just had a very informative conversation with the Russian embassy in London:

Me: "When my business visa expires, can I apply for a new business visa and stay for another three months?"
RE: "Yes of course, but your old visa will be automatically cancelled"
Me: "But I won't be refused a new multiple entry visa"
RE: "Why would you want a multiple entry visa? Just apply for a three month business visa every three months"
Me: "Is that within the law? Can I simply leave Russia every three months, get a new three month business visa and come straight back? Won't I be refused?"
RE: "No, not at all. The law applies only to multiple entry business visas. You can get a new three month business visa every three months and go straight back to Russia"

So, for all those considering using the 3 + 3 + 3 + 3, it's not only legal it's positively encouraged! I didn't even mention constantly reapplying, they suggested it! :)

Admittedly, as Bels suggested, this is only the view of one of the parties responsible for Russian visas. Fingers crossed the registration authorities don't have a different one!! But I think the main thing is getting the new visa - once you've been given a brand new visa you will have no registration data for that visa and thus the 90 day period will begin again. He says with fingers firmly crossed....

S

Bels
06-03-2008, 19:05
Isn't the Russian Embassy in London terrific :) They've done it again :) I haven't heard of a bad response about this place yet. And yes that's the place I have experience of. I'ts got to be the number one Russian Embassy.

Swarbs
06-03-2008, 19:30
They have to be! I read a report the other day saying there are 320,000 Russians in the UK and they have a *lot* of money invested in the UK. Wonder what would happen if the UK decided Abramovich and co could only come to the UK for 90 days? The Russian embassy realises what a nightmare this would be for all the Russian expats, so they do everything they can to help Brits going the other way!

It's proof positive that Russia and the UK can get on just fine if only the politicians would stop whining and posturing! And by that I most definitely mean politicians on both sides!

Bels
06-03-2008, 20:44
And my Russian wife says that between the Russian Embassy in London, a Russian Expat groups organisation and the British government, that these Russian expats are treated very well, rich or poor. This can be from subsidised rented housing, to good advice and assistance of how to settle in the Uk.

Yes I would say that expats are treated much better than expats in Russia. And let's not forget that Britain is now a lot more socialist than Russia.

sparkyal
11-03-2008, 20:37
Yeah, I think they left this loophole in our purpose. If the Russian government wanted to clamp it down entirely, they would have. It is good business for them. the more visas, the more money they receive. and at the same time is gives them a better ability to track foreigners, which they do like to do. No problem.

Swarbs, I would like to know later on how this really works out for you, sometimes not everyone enforces things the way that you may think. i think Guest understands this well and just wanted to make sure that things would go very, very smoothly for you. (Private Russian citizens, for the most part, like to help us foreigners out.)

Bels, thanks for the great replies.

snow&music
12-03-2008, 17:37
Help!

I have only a few days before my 90/180 ME business visa runs out. My question is...

Can I go back to the UK, and cancel the ME business visa, and go for some kind of alternative/renewal (renewal doesn't look like an option from what I've read), or do I need to wait until my 180 days is up? (and explain to work why I'll be 'working from home' for the next 90 days!!)

Does anyone have any experience of this? I'm sure there must be a 90/180 ME business visa timebomb about to go off...... unless people are more organised than me!

(I've read the thread above etc, so apologies if I missed something and this has been answered, I didn't see it)

ps. yes, I know I'm an idiot for leaving it this late, but feel free to remind me :)

Bels
12-03-2008, 18:41
Good question, and I'm ust wondering if you can return with a single entry visa or a personal invitation visa. Perhaps another good question to ask the staff at the Russian embassy in London russemlon.org

As I've said before, I'mso happy I dont have to go through all this anymore. In fact I need to ask permission to get out of here :)

davtan
12-03-2008, 22:19
Help!

I have only a few days before my 90/180 ME business visa runs out. My question is...

Can I go back to the UK, and cancel the ME business visa, and go for some kind of alternative/renewal (renewal doesn't look like an option from what I've read), or do I need to wait until my 180 days is up? (and explain to work why I'll be 'working from home' for the next 90 days!!)

Does anyone have any experience of this? I'm sure there must be a 90/180 ME business visa timebomb about to go off...... unless people are more organised than me!

(I've read the thread above etc, so apologies if I missed something and this has been answered, I didn't see it)

ps. yes, I know I'm an idiot for leaving it this late, but feel free to remind me :)


Why not do what i have done??
Right guys. time to shed a bit of light on this subject......I 2 weeks ago have just come back from UK for getting my visa!!! my visa on my first passport expires on 4th March, so i left the country a bit earlier than my 90 day time (incase my plan did not work). I got my second passport last month with the intention of putting another visa 1yr ME to start from 29th Feb . (knowing that if they sussed me i still had my original to come back on !!! ). I used the same agent as before to apply for it , and they said to call back for it at 4pm Thursday. Well i was sh###ing myself when on my way to them!! but got there , and got my visa starting from the 29th as stated on invitation .
So that was that stage over with , now i had to come back here . bearing in mind i went out on 1 passport 2 days ago and was returning on a different passport !! Needless to say i think i cr*pped myself waiting at the customs desk!!! but was so relieved when she stamped it and said ok !!! and now i am home with 2 visa's , one start's 2 days the 3 month period is up and so on right through the year !! ok so i need to leave the country every 3 month!! but a train trip would not hurt now and again without the hasstle of applying for visa plus the cost of it and flight each time !! if anybody has any questions i will be only too happy to answer them !! feel free to PM me.
I must add that i used the same agent and the same Embassy in London. And again if anybody needs more info PM me.

Bels
12-03-2008, 22:36
But , you have two passports. And it's all very well about pm's as it has it's place as some matters are private.

But we need to collate all good open advice here. We need to sort out the open legal issues here for all the readers to get the best advice. This nineties days in and ninetie days . can it be avoided by going for single entry. can you cancel it, and come back either with a persoanl invitation or a single entry business visa. Let's not forget that most of us don't have two passports.

ISPMAN
13-03-2008, 00:08
Well you have two choices one is to get a personal invite which can be up to 90days, or you can get a work permit, this process is not fast. So ejoy your time off from your work :)

Bels
13-03-2008, 00:14
Well you have two choices one is to get a personal invite which can be up to 90days, or you can get a work permit, this process is not fast. So ejoy your time off from your work :)

I think you've put it in a nutshell :) And for those with Russian families like me, who can't get a decent deal from a company, and who wants to be selfemployed .It's go for residency and the entrepeneurs license.

snow&music
13-03-2008, 14:18
Well you have two choices one is to get a personal invite which can be up to 90days, or you can get a work permit, this process is not fast. So ejoy your time off from your work :)

I have the work permit, but not the work visa, weird eh!

I think I may have found a work around, so if anyone is in the same situation please PM me.

FrenchRussian
13-03-2008, 18:32
Because of new rules for visa, I just converted my usual business visa to a working visa.

A word of caution for those going then abroad with the working visa as I just learned that today:

Each time you will then go abroad (meaning outside of Russia), your company has to warn the immigration office and tell them where you go and how long you will be outside of Russia. Otherwise, the company employing you can be severely fined (up to 800;000 rubles).

Chief accountant of my company is taking care of the process and she is very happy that I am the only employee who has a working visa. I do not know how long this rule will stand as I do not see it manageable very long for companies with many working visas expats. Even in US with very stringent working visas rules, I never heard of such a system.

kapione
04-04-2008, 15:35
look at my post from earlier this week about my Visa experience , any Questions PM me ,I will be happy to answers and questions as best I can

remember we are supposed to help each other here on EXPAT, not be Ali Baba and the 40 Thieves

salmoxis
29-08-2008, 09:49
French Russian - you say you 'converted' your business visa to a work visa? How did you do that? I'm in a similar situation -- I came here on a ME Scientific-Technical visa, but am currently going through the (or rather went through) the bureacracy to get a work permit - which involves getting a 'zakliochenie' from the 'tsentr zanyatosti' and a zayavka to Moscow (we are in Kyzyl, Tuva) and a bunch of other stuff, but the point is I have here a 'rabotodatel' - so is it possible to convert my current visa ? Otherwise my 90 days are up Sept. 14th, and I have two small children and a wife here that need me.

The other issue I saw on this thread is going out and getting a new visa to avoid the 90 days. A friend was here on a 1-year ME business visa and encountered that problem. He got a personal invitation from a friend here, and went to Mongolia when the 90 days were up and got a new, 90 day single entry no problem. My old 1-year Technical exchange visa (issued Jul 07) I was told was also subject to the 90 day rule even tho it was issued beforehand, and I went to Mongolia as well with a new invitation, while the Visa was still good, and got a new one. A Finnish friend also did likewise in finland - went out while old one year was still good (but left cause of 90 day rule) and came back with new SE visa.

Hope that helps.
Salmoxis

handsomefelix4all
29-11-2008, 10:01
I am an African here in moscow. I lost my passport and document which was stolen along with my bag. Please is there any way you could be of help to me. I don't want to go back to Africa. Is there any way the Russia immigaration could help me out?

Hoping for your responds

Felix Rogers

ISPMAN
29-11-2008, 12:00
First you need to get a new passport then go get an exit visa from the passport office. then you need to get a new invitation and go to kiev and get your new visa. Kiev still do the same day visa express services. I had a friend just came back fro mthere last week. This the only way.

andrich
30-11-2008, 04:11
can't one just keep getting three month business visas and stay year round (aside from the brief travel time for each 3month's visa run)?

innovator
30-11-2008, 12:18
First you'll need to go to your Embassy and report your passport lost. They should be able to issue a new one. I am not sure if you can just go to Ukraine to get a new visa. You may need a visa to go to Ukraine.

I'm really sad for you man because you may be up sh*t creek with no paddle.


I am an African here in moscow. I lost my passport and document which was stolen along with my bag. Please is there any way you could be of help to me. I don't want to go back to Africa. Is there any way the Russia immigaration could help me out?

Hoping for your responds

Felix Rogers

Swordfish90293
04-12-2008, 12:13
You are al my new best friends, even the Russo guest with a short temper...try the decaf...

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent"
Sam Goldwyn

afcjungle
19-02-2009, 00:32
People in here must understand... Russian consulates in different countries live there own life.
What is possible in Helsinki, might work in Stockholm, but is impossible in London.
Always check with the consulate that you are going to visit. ONLY that consulate can answer what is needed there.

Banker75
26-03-2009, 15:17
So confusing. Does this apply to all foreign nationals or do they have even tougher rules for Americans?

Markus74
26-03-2009, 16:01
Why not do what i have done??
Right guys. time to shed a bit of light on this subject......I 2 weeks ago have just come back from UK for getting my visa!!! my visa on my first passport expires on 4th March, so i left the country a bit earlier than my 90 day time (incase my plan did not work). I got my second passport last month with the intention of putting another visa 1yr ME to start from 29th Feb . (knowing that if they sussed me i still had my original to come back on !!! ). I used the same agent as before to apply for it , and they said to call back for it at 4pm Thursday. Well i was sh###ing myself when on my way to them!! but got there , and got my visa starting from the 29th as stated on invitation .
So that was that stage over with , now i had to come back here . bearing in mind i went out on 1 passport 2 days ago and was returning on a different passport !! Needless to say i think i cr*pped myself waiting at the customs desk!!! but was so relieved when she stamped it and said ok !!! and now i am home with 2 visa's , one start's 2 days the 3 month period is up and so on right through the year !! ok so i need to leave the country every 3 month!! but a train trip would not hurt now and again without the hasstle of applying for visa plus the cost of it and flight each time !! if anybody has any questions i will be only too happy to answer them !! feel free to PM me.
I must add that i used the same agent and the same Embassy in London. And again if anybody needs more info PM me.
davtan, this is really the easiest way. i do it the same way. it works without any problems.

andrich
26-03-2009, 18:35
I'm using the same strategy.

But I have dual citizenship which is how I have two passports. How are others doing it?

Bels
25-04-2009, 11:20
But I thought if you applied for another passport you have to either declare it was lost or stolen. Or that you need it repaced because all the pages are used.

Hence you have one new passport and the other one is recorded as void. In reality you can't have two different passports. Unless you have two nationalities.

XRM
25-04-2009, 19:33
Bels - the US Embassy allows it.due to the difficult visa requirements here. But the second passport will be only for 2 years in length.

A person needs to be aware that when turning in their visa application, it cannot expire in less than 12 months. While this means the 2 passport effectively needs to be replaced every 12 months, it is well worth the extra money and effort.

Bels
25-04-2009, 21:20
So can you confirm that when you apply for a ne pssport it is not only for the reason it is out of date, lost or stolen you can still get that passport? That you can simply and honestly ask for another one, and your current one won't be made useless.

This might be a good idea in someways, but with such rules it may well cause cause problems for terrorism reasons. Do you know how much certain individuals want to rob western pasports, Such as western Europe and Northern America? It is a big deal.

I believe you should have only one passport and if you have one lost or stolen it should be immediately reported to be made void!!! If you don't do this you are encouraging terrorism, or at the very least illegal immigration to individuals who might endanger our countries.

Much as I like the idea to make it easier for individuals entering Russia here, I think there is a bigger issue here. To fight the war against terrorism or those who have a desire to damage our western countries. And as you should know, Britain is Americas' Biggest ally in this case.

Mosray
26-04-2009, 00:14
[QUOTE=Bels;521430]So can you confirm that when you apply for a ne pssport it is not only for the reason it is out of date, lost or stolen you can still get that passport? That you can simply and honestly ask for another one, and your current one won't be made useless.

Bels, I can confirm this for you.. What you need to get is a letter from your employer or from the company that invited you here.

All they have to write is that your job requires you to travel a lot on business out of Russia and therefor they request that you be granted a second passort for this purpose.

You see entering and exciting russia means a lot of pages will be used with entry/exit stamps, thus using pages in your current passport sooner rather than later, and you don't have to surrender your current passport either.

I was issued a second passport last year for this exact same reason.
Now I have my old passport and a new one, which I might add is vaild 12years and not 10, as I have 2 years remaining in my old one...

poland
19-10-2009, 17:48
has anyone eve got in trouble for the 90 day thing?

has anyone ever had thei passport taken by Customs and smb actually counted how many days one stayed in Rus?

waxyweller
03-01-2010, 16:46
Thanks for the info.. my friend told me but i didn't believe (:12115:

maricor
11-06-2010, 09:09
can anybody help for a cheap visa registration?thank you

smchilds
25-12-2010, 00:04
Yeah, I was given a 1-year business visa and told that "no one would care" about the 90-day thing. Previously I just bought 3-month visas 3 times per year (and spent the remaining time in the states). So does anyone really check it? Or maybe it's not worth trying, and then getting banned from Russia (where my husband lives)? Also, are there ways to leave Russia where they won't really check it (like, via train to Kiev or something)?? I've always wondered if at Sheremetyevo they really have some info in the computer, but on the train they certainly don't.
Maybe it's worth trying the two passport (for the purpose of "work") thing, but do they ask a lot of questions at the American Embassy??

MickeyTong
25-12-2010, 00:12
I've always wondered if at Sheremetyevo they really have some info in the computer....

Is there no centralised database, with details of who has what visa/permit/applications/etc?

putici
27-01-2011, 14:26
It sounds they are are going to make more paper work than there is already to het a multiple-entry work visa. However the company I work with had me acquire a 90 day work visa and then had it extended in the country for a full year. The extension process only took a few weeks and seems to be pretty standard.

I just worry how the sticky visa situation will be dealt wit for the o lympics and world cup.

Almagro
28-01-2011, 13:21
Hello. I have a 1 year business visa to Russia. So now I have to leave the country every 90 days and then come back? Or how is this working? I dont understand. I didnt know anything about this before.
And another question. When you have such visa, do you need to register in the country or not? I know 3 people with the same visa and they never registered when they came to Moscow.
Please help me in this if you can. Thank you!

Bogatyr
29-01-2011, 11:27
Hello. I have a 1 year business visa to Russia. So now I have to leave the country every 90 days and then come back? Or how is this working? I dont understand. I didnt know anything about this before.
And another question. When you have such visa, do you need to register in the country or not? I know 3 people with the same visa and they never registered when they came to Moscow.
Please help me in this if you can. Thank you!

It depends on your nationality, I think. Does your visa have something like "90 / 180" printed/written on it?

Technically, you always need to register. You may "get away" with not registering (if your documents are never checked by anybody throughout your stay, you never need to set up a bank account, etc.), or you may have big troubles later on.

kerwat72
31-01-2011, 16:58
I have a 180 day visa and was informed i could spend 90 days here in one half of the year then 90 days in the second 6 months. To cut a long story short i overstayed the first 90 days and was worried this would be a problem. After a chat with immigration before leaving for a holiday i was informed that it was no problem to overstay the 90 days and at most would be charged a small fine, However i was informed that if i overstayed the 180 days this would be much more serious . As it happened i was not fined and nothing at all was said at the Airport on departure and arrival back into Moscow.My 180 days are not up yet but soon. Hopefully my employer will now apply for a work visa . :-)

DimoTupurkovski
21-03-2012, 14:20
Thanks for the info

highsmith
11-05-2012, 17:41
What's the current situation?

kazachka
11-05-2012, 19:49
Unless you want to go broke doing visa runs every 3 months, you need to get a work visa (1 yr ME no 90/180 rule) or TRP...or have more than 1 passport...

Samoht Dewes
28-02-2014, 15:46
I'm slightly confused by all these rules. If, say friends/family from the UK, wanted to visit Moscow for a week or so. I'm guessing they would still need a tourist visa but is it possible to get very short term ones and how would they be able to get an invitation?

AstarD
28-02-2014, 15:51
This thread is about business visas, not tourist visas. If you search the site, you will likely find information about getting tourist visas for relatives.

Benedikt
28-02-2014, 17:23
The new rules could complicate life for expat English teachers, many of whom have multiple-entry business visas.

"If people have to come for 90 days and then leave, this will be very disruptive for the teaching process," said Helen Panovich, academic director of ITC, a company that hires English-language native speakers to give lessons to Russian businessmen.

Amy Cartwright, a spokeswoman for the Association of European Businesses, said most of AEB's member companies would not be affected because their foreign employees had work visas.

But she singled out expat English teachers as a potential trouble spot. "It's very worrying because it means that if you're a teacher, for example, and if you're on a business visa, you can't stay here," Cartwright said.

AEB has met with representatives of the Federal Migration Service to find out how the rules will be implemented, and one of the open questions is whether expats will have to return to their home country to obtain a business visa, she said.



you come to Russia to work and make money, get a work visa, get registered and pay tax. you can't have the cake and eat it. does not work that way. Not in the States or the EU or anywhere else i n the world. So, why so much fuss here? Russia does to -you- what other countries do to Russians. Nothing more or less. so, stop complaining and obey the law.

AstarD
28-02-2014, 17:36
Benedikt, English teachers have had a special deal with FMS whereby they have been allowed to work with business visas. Now that's changing. Russia of course has that right, but it's just discombobulating to have the rug pulled out from under you, especially in the middle of the school year.

inorcist
28-02-2014, 20:07
This article Benedikt was quoting is from way back in 2007! There are still plenty of foreign language teachers here on chain visas. Nothing has changed really.

Russia is still in a learning process of how to introduce law changes smoothly but in my opinion getting better in it. At least regulatory and legal changes in my profession are now being discussed with relevant stakeholders in advance and potential conflicts are being mitigated.

N.Hoffman
02-04-2014, 18:58
I just had an interesting conversation with an immigration lawyer. He told me that the 90 days rule has become very strict now. Also the 3 months visarun is not possible now anymore. Even the private visa is now restricted to 90 days in a 180 days.

The strict enforcement has just started now from the first of April. If course this is for kicking out the gastarbeiters. But everyone not on a student visa or Workvisa is on it.

ezik
06-04-2014, 13:30
Do you have an online source for this information?
My advice to those who do visa runs all the time (effectively residing in Russia): check your options for a residence permit!

GarethM
06-04-2014, 23:26
I would be interested to know if this is official or not as I am leaving for Russia in 3 weeks and plan to start my TRP. I was planning to apply then do a dash back and collect my TRP second time around.

Also, my wife is insisting that the lady at the UFMS office in SPT has said the application will take exactly 55 days to be completed. Does anyone know anything about that?