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Benedikt
19-08-2012, 21:49
http://www.orf.at/#/stories/2136353/

I hope this will get the same attention as the Pussy Riot story in Moscow. So far i have seen and heard nothing.
In Pakistan a 11 year old girl was arrested, from a christian minority, as see was seen apparently burning pages of the Quran. Witnesses who saw it brought her to the Mosque and there is is being questioned.
Apparently the poor girl suffers from Down Syndrome, so it is not even certain if she knew what she was doing.

Hope Madonna and the rest of the -superstars- will also raise their voices and concern about the girl in Pakistan. And the world press will condemn Pakistan and the Moslem clergy who are following zealous the words of the script.

And what about the Mufti here in Russia, i believe it was the guy from the Vologda region (?) who said the Pussy Riot girls must be forgiven and let go. Hope he will do the same for the little Pakistani girl who did most probably not even know what she was doing.

yakspeare
19-08-2012, 22:12
Dude, the massive difference is that, though sad, no one expects Pakistan to act differently. But Russia has a clear definition of separation of church and state and not a cleric based rule of law.

peppermintpaddy
20-08-2012, 02:57
Dude, the massive difference is that, though sad, no one expects Pakistan to act differently. But Russia has a clear definition of separation of church and state and not a cleric based rule of law.

No one expects Moslems to act differently more like.......

ezik
20-08-2012, 04:01
Let's share! An 11 yo in her position faces God-knows-what. Any pressure will help!



http://www.orf.at/#/stories/2136353/

I hope this will get the same attention as the Pussy Riot story in Moscow. So far i have seen and heard nothing.
In Pakistan a 11 year old girl was arrested, from a christian minority, as see was seen apparently burning pages of the Quran. Witnesses who saw it brought her to the Mosque and there is is being questioned.
Apparently the poor girl suffers from Down Syndrome, so it is not even certain if she knew what she was doing.

Hope Madonna and the rest of the -superstars- will also raise their voices and concern about the girl in Pakistan. And the world press will condemn Pakistan and the Moslem clergy who are following zealous the words of the script.

And what about the Mufti here in Russia, i believe it was the guy from the Vologda region (?) who said the Pussy Riot girls must be forgiven and let go. Hope he will do the same for the little Pakistani girl who did most probably not even know what she was doing.

rusmeister
20-08-2012, 06:05
I have a great deal of sympathy for a situation with such facts - AS THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN.

But the trouble with jumping on a bandwagon of international pressure is that nearly always, we really do not know all of the facts, and very often important and even vital facts are omitted that would change our understanding of these stories. Finally, in reports related to religion, there is the fact that non-religious people do not understand common issues of religion and extremely often (as "Pussy Riot" showed) have no appreciation for the idea of sanctity, and certainly not blasphemy.

Thus, in such discussions, the only way to get the idea of sanctity across is to propose insult and injury to one's mother, the only thing that people who reject religion have any grasp of something holy and untouchable about.

So international pressure can be applied against the wrong people in the wrong ways, because we often do not fully understand what is actually happening.

Benedikt
20-08-2012, 07:14
[QUOTE=rusmeister;1045033]I have a great deal of sympathy for a situation with such facts - AS THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN.


but about an 11 year old girl who has a mind like a little baby and does not know what she was doing. the silly/ overzealous neighbors should have kept their brain together and not make such a story out of it.
hopefully the people at the mosque who will be seeing the girl will come to the conclusion that the ment no intentional harm and send her back home to her parents,

i also do not agree with certain comments made here -it is a moslem country/only moslems can do that-. this is stereotype. only -we- are holier than the Pope and the rest are all heathens.

rusmeister
20-08-2012, 09:07
[QUOTE=rusmeister;1045033]I have a great deal of sympathy for a situation with such facts - AS THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN.


but about an 11 year old girl who has a mind like a little baby and does not know what she was doing. the silly/ overzealous neighbors should have kept their brain together and not make such a story out of it.
hopefully the people at the mosque who will be seeing the girl will come to the conclusion that the ment no intentional harm and send her back home to her parents,

i also do not agree with certain comments made here -it is a moslem country/only moslems can do that-. this is stereotype. only -we- are holier than the Pope and the rest are all heathens.

I'm just saying that there are very often other facts that we are NOT given, and they are often important, or even vital, to the matter at hand.

That we are not given them, the passive voice, points to the givers of information and their responsibility for what we think we know, as well as what we don't know.

Nobbynumbnuts
20-08-2012, 12:32
........But the trouble with jumping on a bandwagon of international pressure is that nearly always, we really do not know all of the facts, and very often important and even vital facts are omitted.......


I know all the facts. Pakistan is a sh*t hole. ;)

peppermintpaddy
21-08-2012, 00:20
[COLOR="Red"][QUOTE=rusmeister;1045033]

i also do not agree with certain comments made here -it is a moslem country/only moslems can do that-. this is stereotype. only -we- are holier than the Pope and the rest are all heathens.

Yes,only Moslems can do that....those stone age death cult adherents are the only people who would hold a DS child responsible.....
I also remember them strapping a suicide bomb onto a down syndrome girl and exploding it in a crowded market place in Iraq.....no need to be an apologist for Islam Benedikt,there are already enough of them on this forum.......I see the rusmeister/spinmeister has already raised his voice defending Islam as usual....to quote Jas,"Islam will eat them alive"

Jas
21-08-2012, 00:37
Benedikt,

Thank you for pointing this out as I did myself raise it in a post I wrote today and slaved on (to get the grammar right) for nearly an hour.


In that post I explained why 3rd wave feminists won't support that little 11 year old Christian girl.

It's for the same reason that third wavers (Pussy Riot is 3rd wave and links to Riot grrrl back in the 1990's in the US), support black nationalism, Islamism and degrading things like prostitution. The third wavers are appeasers looking only for political support in the west. To maintain that, they will not support feminists in the Islamic world and Pakistan. Worse- they silence us and stab us in the back- denying our own interpretation of what is going on as something that plays into the hands of the west's right wing. They ask us to support the the worst practices imaginable as to shout about them might inucr the wrath of their 'allies.'
These people hate for example Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
What kind of feminists are they?
They're not feminists at all. They've simply hijacked the title. Real feminists don't have the time for stupid stunts like that.

Now back to what really matters... that 11 year old girl. They will say nothing about it. They will silence anyone who does want to speak out about it. Honor killings and karakhouri and tezab- again, plenty of condemnation of police violence in the west- but never any slight criticism of the rape culture that pervades Pakistan and other places. They will march on the streets of Brussels in support of the right to wear the veil- (as the bearded ones stand sniggering)- but that little 11 year old, or the thousands of children forced to marry, or the Ahmadi girls who risk getting raped just cos of not only our gender- but our sect- or the Christians of Pakistan forced to work in either brick factories or as sewage workers cos its considered work fit only for swine in our lovely republic- no THOSE PEOPLE WILL NEVER BE MENTIONED- NOT BY PUSSY RIOT- AND NOT BY ANY WHO HAVE ADOPTED THE THIRD WAVE FEMINIST POSITION.

Er, and you ask as to have sympathy with Pussy Riot?

I am very glad you wrote this post Benedikt. Thank you.

Jas
21-08-2012, 00:51
[quote=Benedikt;1045037][COLOR="Red"]

I'm just saying that there are very often other facts that we are NOT given, and they are often important, or even vital, to the matter at hand.

That we are not given them, the passive voice, points to the givers of information and their responsibility for what we think we know, as well as what we don't know.

What facts are u looking for? She's an 11 year old child for god's sake.

Do you know that Pakistan's Blasphemy laws are the chief coercive legal mechanism by which anyone in the center or the left is now suppressed to the point where they're in fear of their life? These laws are employed as terror tactics. Even the chief minister of Punjab was murdered by his own bodyguard because he spoke out about their mass abuse to intimidate anyone who isn't an Islamist! The blasphemy laws are splashed against whole communities- including entire villages- and all Ahmadis.

She's just a little girl. I am so frustrated I dunno even what to say..... when u get this level of appeasement from both the left and the rusmeister conservative right u have to almost say to urseself, "Let the whole world fall to Islamism. In a thousand years, things will right themselves."

But I wud say to u first.... "HOW DID YOU LOSE YOUR WAY LIKE THIS?"

yakspeare
21-08-2012, 01:19
Rusmesiter's views are certainly not typical of the conservative right, which is generally anti-islamic. Peppermintpaddy's views would be closer to the general conservative right view(Not saying he is as such but his views echo those of the right on this particular topic.)

peppermintpaddy
21-08-2012, 10:17
Rusmesiter's views are certainly not typical of the conservative right, which is generally anti-islamic. Peppermintpaddy's views would be closer to the general conservative right view(Not saying he is as such but his views echo those of the right on this particular topic.)

Rusmeister's views are pro anything to do with Religion,well,Abrahamic Religions exclusively I should say.He sees no harm whatsoever in Islam's "traditions".Yak is so politically correct it's sickening,he never condemns even their worst outrages,coz he knows some real cool Muslims from Uzbekistan......I'm still waiting for him to tell me how "Islam has changed a lot in 1500 years"(his quote).....its been a long wait.

Nobbynumbnuts
21-08-2012, 15:35
Just to throw some oil on the fire. I was traveling to Krabi in Thailand from Phang Nga on Sunday. I believe Saturday was the end of Ramadan and Sunday was a holiday for Muslims.
Anyway, I went to the bus station to buy the ticket and in front of me were a German couple. She was wearing a t. shirt that was low cut but nothing risqué. The woman selling the bus tickets was aggressive, telling her she should'nt wear clothes like that.
Thailand is not a Muslim country.

Jas
21-08-2012, 15:50
1045037][COLOR="Red"]

I'm just saying that there are very often other facts that we are NOT given, and they are often important, or even vital, to the matter at hand.

.

I'll give you some more facts. Her name is Rimsha and she's got Down Syndrome.
Yes, the police arrested her to protect her. We all know that, Rus.
The question is, how did Pakistani society get to such a horrific state of affairs that an eleven year old with Down Syndrome risks being torn to shreds by the mob and then set alight? Viewing the Pakistani state as Rimsha's savior is nonesense because the state bred all the hate in the first place- or at the least was impotent as our society lurched to the hard right. I blame people like General Zia (America's pal).
There are good people in the Pakistani government... like the former Minister for Minorities who tried to speak out against these laws. What happened to him? He was murdered by his own guard and the courts- hailed the killer as a hero as the trial become a joke.
Er, so what chance has Rimsha got?

She needs to be rescued and that doesn't mean a jail cell. She can never be safe now. Only way is to bring her to the UK or USA as soon as possible with her mum and dad.

Carl
21-08-2012, 16:05
She needs to be rescued and that doesn't mean a jail cell. She can never be safe now. Only way is to bring her to the UK or USA as soon as possible with her mum and dad.

Yet, you're ready to throw the Pussy Riot kids in a state run orphanage.. For the supposed misdeeds of their mothers.. Interesting :suspect:

Jas
21-08-2012, 16:35
Yet, you're ready to throw the Pussy Riot kids in a state run orphanage.. For the supposed misdeeds of their mothers.. Interesting :suspect:

The mothers are convicted criminals one of which took part in a orgy when she was five days from delivery. Little Rimsha is a victim of criminals.
Er, sorry, but you are making a false comparison. Relativist arguments never work.

Carl
21-08-2012, 17:24
The mothers are convicted criminals one of which took part in a orgy when she was five days from delivery. Little Rimsha is a victim of criminals.
Er, sorry, but you are making a false comparison. Relativist arguments never work.

So... You're saying that because the Pussy Riot girls are convicted criminals, their children should also be punished by being taken away from their families and put into orphanages? Am I reading you correctly here?

Jas
21-08-2012, 17:38
So... You're saying that because the Pussy Riot girls are convicted criminals, their children should also be punished by being taken away from their families and put into orphanages? Am I reading you correctly here?

I am a true revolutionary and it's got nothing to do with this third wave feminist nonsense (read my posts on why I condemn Pussy Riot from an ideaological perspective).

Your basic supposition that I mean to punish the kids is rong. Why wud I?
There's this TV show on Channel 1 called "POST GUVARYIIT," and they often have wino parents, pyschotic parents, religious maniac parents.. whatever. Often, the children at the end of the show go into some form of care.
That's not punishment. It's a way to help them.
Do u know the concept of a unfit mother?
The kids face moral corruption and who knows what else? So not to punish them- no way- to help them, they shud go into state orphanages.
As for what I told about a deterrent. Yes, like with the BNP in the UK or with these wreckers in the Russian Federation, if ure an extremist- u shud first know that u will lose ure job, ure house, even ure kids. That's how u deal with extremists and I only wish we had taken harsh measures in Pakistan years ago to stop our own slide into hell. Russia is right to be doing this harsh stuff cos we must prevent any sort of anarchy.

Benedikt
21-08-2012, 17:48
Thailand is not a Muslim country.[/QUOTE]


try to go into St.Peters Cathedral in Rome with shorts/mini/ string top. You have to buy/rent a sort of paper wrap otherwise they won't let you in. men must wear long pants. And why not. St.Peters is not the Trevi Fountain.
And I think in Thailand they should encourage short /sandal wearing hordes of tourists to stay out and away from temples and shrines when there is a service going on or when people are praying. This is what i call culture.

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/city-guides/rome-travel-basics/

mds45
21-08-2012, 18:15
Thailand is not a Muslim country.


try to go into St.Peters Cathedral in Rome with shorts/mini/ string top. You have to buy/rent a sort of paper wrap otherwise they won't let you in. men must wear long pants. And why not. St.Peters is not the Trevi Fountain.
And I think in Thailand they should encourage short /sandal wearing hordes of tourists to stay out and away from temples and shrines when there is a service going on or when people are praying. This is what i call culture.

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/city-guides/rome-travel-basics/[/QUOTE]

Does anybody really believe god gives a rats arse if he can see your knees or not ?? Ridiculous - do you realy believe god thinks it's respectful to hide your knee's and shoulders - your mad , just barking mad !!

Carl
21-08-2012, 18:21
As for what I told about a deterrent. Yes, like with the BNP in the UK or with these wreckers in the Russian Federation, if ure an extremist- u shud first know that u will lose ure job, ure house, even ure kids. That's how u deal with extremists and I only wish we had taken harsh measures in Pakistan years ago to stop our own slide into hell. Russia is right to be doing this harsh stuff cos we must prevent any sort of anarchy.

Do you have any idea what the conditions are like in Russian orphanages? Believe me, there is no help on offer there! To take these kids away from loving families (grandma, grandpa, uncles & aunties, fathers) and throw them into the black-hole of state run orphanages is nothing less than cruelty at its highest form.. And as far as Pust Gavorit well, that show and all the degenerate Gopniki they love to profile on prime time tv, has done more to deteriorate Russian society over the years then a 1000 Pussy Riots. Really, you are one messed up cookie!

rusmeister
21-08-2012, 19:12
[/COLOR]

try to go into St.Peters Cathedral in Rome with shorts/mini/ string top. You have to buy/rent a sort of paper wrap otherwise they won't let you in. men must wear long pants. And why not. St.Peters is not the Trevi Fountain.
And I think in Thailand they should encourage short /sandal wearing hordes of tourists to stay out and away from temples and shrines when there is a service going on or when people are praying. This is what i call culture.

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/city-guides/rome-travel-basics/

Does anybody really believe god gives a rats arse if he can see your knees or not ?? Ridiculous - do you realy believe god thinks it's respectful to hide your knee's and shoulders - your mad , just barking mad !![/QUOTE]

Hi, mds,
You're offering up a classic example of not understanding what the sacred is, let alone ways of showing respect. It's like telling Westerners in Japan that they need not bow to people they meet, because you don't have bowing in your culture and don't particularly understand it, AND to call them mad for suggesting that bowing might be a good idea at meetings.

I think God DOES think efforts to be respectful, whatever they may be, ARE respectful.

Woof, woof!

Nobbynumbnuts
21-08-2012, 19:37
Thailand is not a Muslim country.


try to go into St.Peters Cathedral in Rome with shorts/mini/ string top. You have to buy/rent a sort of paper wrap otherwise they won't let you in. men must wear long pants. And why not. St.Peters is not the Trevi Fountain.
And I think in Thailand they should encourage short /sandal wearing hordes of tourists to stay out and away from temples and shrines when there is a service going on or when people are praying. This is what i call culture.

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/city-guides/rome-travel-basics/[/QUOTE]


This is very true but it's a different issue if you are entering a place of worship. They have the right to impose any rules they like and we have the choice not to enter if we wish.
Muslims have no right trying to impose a dress code in a bus station in a non Muslim country. Muslims world wide are becoming less tolerant of non believers.

mds45
22-08-2012, 01:17
[/COLOR]

Does anybody really believe god gives a rats arse if he can see your knees or not ?? Ridiculous - do you realy believe god thinks it's respectful to hide your knee's and shoulders - your mad , just barking mad !!

Hi, mds,
You're offering up a classic example of not understanding what the sacred is, let alone ways of showing respect. It's like telling Westerners in Japan that they need not bow to people they meet, because you don't have bowing in your culture and don't particularly understand it, AND to call them mad for suggesting that bowing might be a good idea at meetings.

I think God DOES think efforts to be respectful, whatever they may be, ARE respectful.

Woof, woof![/QUOTE]

Hi rusmeister,

He really doesn't care you know,really really doesn't :) I guess that is what is so wrong with religions . we have the same beliefs rus, believe or not , it's just there's no human garbage hanging from mine. nothing for me to justify in his name.

rusmeister
22-08-2012, 07:35
Hi rusmeister,

He really doesn't care you know,really really doesn't :) I guess that is what is so wrong with religions . we have the same beliefs rus, believe or not , it's just there's no human garbage hanging from mine. nothing for me to justify in his name.

No, mds, we do not have the same beliefs. I believe in sin, in the essential selfishness in the human person that is willing to sacrifice the interests of others on the altar of that selfishness; I believe in its destructive power - because I can see it with my waking eyes. I further believe that it is harder to see it in ourselves than others. I believe that it has the power to destroy us, a limited but sufficient power in this life, and unlimited in our eternal souls (which is what hell is). I believe that we need to be saved from that and cannot do it ourselves; that it requires the power of the Being who created us to set us right, to free us from the sin we almost don't see in ourselves.

As far as I can tell, you DON'T believe that - though sin is in front of us all the time and is easy enough to see in others. And that true understanding of the human condition is all that matters.

Probe
22-08-2012, 10:46
Read this article..... plus pertains to the topic!

We urge Muslims in Pakistan and around the world to focus on this particular topic and seek to abolish the blasphemy laws.

There is a way out to find lasting solutions to rid of the abusive practices by a few in the clergy group. These men, literate or illiterate, at least claim to follow Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) life examples; however, they don't, and it is our immediate responsibility to pass on Prophet Muhammad's practices to some of these men who pass judgments without any reference to the life of the Prophet. Screaming at them or pushing them to the corner is neither Jesus' way nor Muhammad's way.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is considered a blessing to the humanity and rightfully known as Rahmutul Aalameen, the mercy to mankind. It behooves Muslims to protect the integrity of that title and never commit an unmerciful act invoking his name.

There are innumerable examples of forbearance, forgiveness and kindness of the prophet (pbuh) toward those who insulted and even tried to harm him.

One of the most famous stories, often repeated, is about an old lady who threw trash on the prophet every time he passed in front of her door. One day, the trash was not thrown. Concerned, he asked the neighbors and found out that she was sick. He knocked on her door and offered help. Overwhelmed with kindness and love, she honored him by believing in his mission.

Once on a way to the city of Taif, the Prophet was pelted with rocks by miscreants, his associates wanted to retaliate and go beat up the bad boys. Even the arch angel Gabriel offered to crush them and bring relief to the situation. The prophet said no, and instead asked them to join him in forgiving and asked God to bless them with good will. The Prophet preached that the dearest human act to God is forgiveness.

He enjoined us that, "if any one eats a full meal when his neighbor is hungry or starving, then he is not from among us." He never said "Muslim neighbor." He loved humanity and asked Muslims to be role models of charity, kindness, concern and love to all.

What was the need for the Prophet to have endured such painful experiences? It was to guide humanity toward kindness and shape long term solutions for peaceful communities and the greater good of the society at large. He was committed to mitigating conflicts and nurturing goodwill. Indeed, he was the ultimate peace maker, the mercy to mankind.

As Muslims we need to keep his message of kindness alive and bring to fruition what he was all about: Rahmutul Aalameen. Let the mercy and kindness he taught become a blessing to the universe and continue to shower on humanity.

We appeal to the Ulema, thoughtful people and the Government of Pakistan to give life to the examples of the Prophet. Blasphemy has become a source of harassment and to a few who have nothing better to do than create chaos.

We ask the people of Pakistan to seriously debate the blasphemy laws. Islam is about free will and as Muslims we need to stand against any oppression towards any human being following in the footsteps of the prophet.

By: Mike Ghouse is president of the World Muslim Congress, a think tank and a forum of Muslims together building cohesive societies.

mds45
22-08-2012, 11:34
Hi, mds,
You're offering up a classic example of not understanding what the sacred is, let alone ways of showing respect. It's like telling Westerners in Japan that they need not bow to people they meet, because you don't have bowing in your culture and don't particularly understand it, AND to call them mad for suggesting that bowing might be a good idea at meetings.

I think God DOES think efforts to be respectful, whatever they may be, ARE respectful.

Woof, woof!

Hi rusmeister,

He really doesn't care you know,really really doesn't :) I guess that is what is so wrong with religions . we have the same beliefs rus, believe or not , it's just there's no human garbage hanging from mine. nothing for me to justify in his name.[/QUOTE]


Well rus I do believe there is a difference between culture and religon and so I don't accept your comparrison.

So you actually believe something that could create all of the universe cares if he can see the knees he created ? can't you see you are projecting your thoughts on what is respectful onto your deity. Why would such an entity require you to do anything - doesn't the whole deal with religionj work on free will? why do you fawn to the unknown?

rusmeister
22-08-2012, 11:43
Duplicate post

rusmeister
22-08-2012, 11:50
Well rus I do believe there is a difference between culture and religon and so I don't accept your comparrison.

So you actually believe something that could create all of the universe cares if he can see the knees he created ? can't you see you are projecting your thoughts on what is respectful onto your deity. Why would such an entity require you to do anything - doesn't the whole deal with religionj work on free will? why do you fawn to the unknown?

Mds, I didn't make any comparison at all in my last post. I did not say anything remotely like "there is no difference between culture and religion", nor have I said that "God cares if He can see the knees He created", nor do I "fawn". What's the good of talking if you're going to mischaracterize or change everything I say into something I don't say? Until you answer what I DO say, and not what I DON'T say, I'm not going to waste time with you.

mds45
22-08-2012, 12:00
Mds, I didn't make any comparison at all in my last post. I did not say anything remotely like "there is no difference between culture and religion", nor have I said that "God cares if He can see the knees He created", nor do I "fawn". What's the good of talking if you're going to mischaracterize or change everything I say into something I don't say? Until you answer what I DO say, and not what I DON'T say, I'm not going to waste time with you.

OK rus , I agree , we will never understand each other best to let it rest.

rusmeister
22-08-2012, 13:02
OK rus , I agree , we will never understand each other best to let it rest.
Well, I think I actually DO understand you, and you do not respond to what I do say, because you do not have good responses. But I will let it rest on that.

mds45
22-08-2012, 17:10
The last word....