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abstudent
17-07-2012, 19:31
I'm planing to study LAW in Moscow or Russia
and i need advice ........!!!

i'm in moscow until 28 July
and will come back in September

BEN
By PM please

abstudent
17-07-2012, 19:49
I'm planing to study Law in Russia and will really appreciate if you can advice me
.......................

I speck Russian and i'm here in Moscow until 28 July
i will come back on September

Ben
by PM please

Suvorov
17-07-2012, 20:00
Studying law in Russia is like studying gravity on the Moon. It's there, but far less present than back home.

BabyFirefly
17-07-2012, 20:25
Yeah, I was going to do that, realized it was a bad idea when everyone I told who's farther ahead in my field just laughed.

Arthuro
18-07-2012, 04:32
Absolutely no sense.
better in Europe & US

yakspeare
18-07-2012, 09:24
There is some logic into studying law in Russia-I briefly considered it-because an expat with knowledge of Russian law could be quite useful in business here-especially as a go between middle man-between a western company and the authorities.

Inola
18-07-2012, 11:18
I always wonder at people laughing at the Russian law.. It's not as bad as you might think actually.. First of all, because it's young, i.e. modern.

Russia's problems is not the laws themselves, but their implementation...

yakspeare
18-07-2012, 12:14
I had a friend do law as her second degree here in Krasnodar(at a campus of my university). To get a diploma all had to pay a bribe. She declined and didn't receive it. The irony of a university for lawyers asking for a bribe.lol.

Suvorov
18-07-2012, 12:23
I always wonder at people laughing at the Russian law.. It's not as bad as you might think actually.. First of all, because it's young, i.e. modern.

Russia's problems is not the laws themselves, but their implementation...

Which is the whole point. Western lawyers know the law inside out (or at least that part of the law they specialize in) and can use their knowledge to help their customers (companies, private persons).

In Russia, such knowledge is useless. A judge, either because he doesn't care, or because he has been paid to reach a certain verdict, or because he has been pressured by the authorities, might come to any conclusion whatsoever, not based on the law you spent 4 years studying at all. What, then, does studying this law bring you? You'd be better off spending your 4 years rubbing elbows with high ranking civil servants and business men. After spending your "education" this way, I am sure you'd be far more successful as a lawyer than any MGU-student.

yakspeare
18-07-2012, 12:44
Which is the whole point. Western lawyers know the law inside out (or at least that part of the law they specialize in) and can use their knowledge to help their customers (companies, private persons).

In Russia, such knowledge is useless. A judge, either because he doesn't care, or because he has been paid to reach a certain verdict, or because he has been pressured by the authorities, might come to any conclusion whatsoever, not based on the law you spent 4 years studying at all. What, then, does studying this law bring you? You'd be better off spending your 4 years rubbing elbows with high ranking civil servants and business men. After spending your "education" this way, I am sure you'd be far more successful as a lawyer than any MGU-student.

I am sure any good lawyer would be rubbing elbows with the right people anyway. It is probably an entry into the rub elbow club. I go shooting with a circuit judge and a prominent lawyer, the former also a member of Er(because he has to be)...the connections these two have are clearly from their time as lawyers.

Inola
18-07-2012, 13:01
Which is the whole point. Western lawyers know the law inside out (or at least that part of the law they specialize in) and can use their knowledge to help their customers (companies, private persons).

Likewise in Russia


In Russia, such knowledge is useless. A judge, either because he doesn't care, or because he has been paid to reach a certain verdict, or because he has been pressured by the authorities, might come to any conclusion whatsoever, not based on the law you spent 4 years studying at all.

Not all judges take bribes, not all cases have "political" flavour... Good litigation lawyers are not that many.

Litigation is not the only option of legal career. I've been practising law for 8 years now. First time I was in a courtroom for work was a couple of months ago (internships I don't count).


What, then, does studying this law bring you? You'd be better off spending your 4 years rubbing elbows with high ranking civil servants and business men. After spending your "education" this way, I am sure you'd be far more successful as a lawyer than any MGU-student.

Nope, studying law is not really about studying the laws (laws tend to change constantly), it's more about learning how to think as a lawyer, to ask the right questions and where to find the answers.

That's what legal education brings you.

Suvorov
18-07-2012, 13:11
Your statement I responded to was a general one about the law in Russia. You now chose to specify your statement. That's OK, but my overall point still stands.

Inola
18-07-2012, 13:19
Your statement I responded to was a general one about the law in Russia. You now chose to specify your statement. That's OK, but my overall point still stands.

Fine with me :) Your overall statement was studying law in Russia is useless. I disagreed and explained why I disagreed. If you were a lawyer with a degree from a Russian law school, your same statement (studying law in Russia is useless) would have been more substantive.

Suvorov
18-07-2012, 13:27
Fine with me :) Your overall statement was studying law in Russia is useless. I disagreed and explained why I disagreed. If you were a lawyer with a degree from a Russian law school, your same statement (studying law in Russia is useless) would have been more substantive.

We've had our fair share of run ins with the law, thank you very much. Both with the business I'm running and, indirectly, issues my family members in St. Pete had. Our lawyers could point at the articles in the law, sometimes even the Constitution, based on which we should prevail. Surprise, surprise, we didn't. Surprise, surprise, all instances we were either up against the local authorities (St. Pete) or well connected business partners (Moscow).

I'm thrilled that such things as, say, divorce law are so well organized here, but if you tango with the state or business people with "connections" the law is, in fact, useless.

Inola
18-07-2012, 13:38
We've had our fair share of run ins with the law, thank you very much. Both with the business I'm running and, indirectly, issues my family members in St. Pete had. Our lawyers could point at the articles in the law, sometimes even the Constitution, based on which we should prevail. Surprise, surprise, we didn't. Surprise, surprise, all instances we were either up against the local authorities (St. Pete) or well connected business partners (Moscow).

I'm thrilled that such things as, say, divorce law are so well organized here, but if you tango with the state or business people with "connections" the law is, in fact, useless.

This only confirms what i said in my first post: laws are fine, proper implementation is not always there.

I condole with your misfortunes, but can't agree with the reasoning that since there is corruption and injustice, lawyers are useless. On the contrary, the more people in Russia become aware of their rights and dare to claim what is their, the better are chances that corruption and injustice won't be tolerated.

Suvorov
18-07-2012, 13:46
This only confirms what i said in my first post: laws are fine, proper implementation is not always there.

I condole with your misfortunes, but can't agree with the reasoning that since there is corruption and injustice, lawyers are useless. On the contrary, the more people in Russia become aware of their rights and dare to claim what is their, the better are chances that corruption and injustice won't be tolerated.

OK, then I retract my earlier statements. For the sake of Russia, _everybody_ should go to law school! ;)

mds45
18-07-2012, 13:46
I always wonder at people laughing at the Russian law.. It's not as bad as you might think actually.. First of all, because it's young, i.e. modern.

Russia's problems is not the laws themselves, but their implementation...

My experience in Russia regarding the law revolves around IP rights and patents and I can assure you there is a lot to laugh about it is a huge joke on one hand but on the other it is organised crime - no other words are required, when the US critised Russia for being a mafia state there was and is some truth to it, IP and patents are perfect examples.
There are many people in power in Russia who have every reason not to change the current crazy legislation and that's why it doesn't change ,it's nothing to do with being a young country, look how quickly Mr Putin changed the libal laws because it suited him.

Inola
18-07-2012, 14:08
My experience in Russia regarding the law revolves around IP rights and patents and I can assure you there is a lot to laugh about it is a huge joke on one hand but on the other it is organised crime - no other words are required, when the US critised Russia for being a mafia state there was and is some truth to it, IP and patents are perfect examples.
There are many people in power in Russia who have every reason not to change the current crazy legislation and that's why it doesn't change ,it's nothing to do with being a young country, look how quickly Mr Putin changed the libal laws because it suited him.

I am an IP lawyer and to study IP law I had to go to France. Russian IP law is less laughable now than it was in 1999 when I entered the Russian uni... but still has a lot of room for improvement.
Rospatent and courts' activity is questionable. As to Mr Putin and "mafia".. it's again about who and how benefits from the laws, not the laws themselves.

Your post reminded me of the recent case on "Volodya i medvedi" trademark for vodka:
http://rapsinews.com/judicial_news/20120626/263582996.html

Rospatent, being an executive body, woudn't register the mark on absolute grounds (against public interest), while the courts (up to the Supreme Court) didn't see nuisance, if any, to Mr Putin's and the leading party's reputation as qualifying for being "against public interest".

Perhaps, Russia is not that hopeless.

Inola
18-07-2012, 14:09
OK, then I retract my earlier statements. For the sake of Russia, _everybody_ should go to law school! ;)

What for? It's boring :D

yakspeare
18-07-2012, 14:33
There are good laws, there are bad laws, there are laws that are ignored by some,few,many. Most of the time the law is sound, even in the most despotic of countries. In America "all men are created equal" and , in the treatment of blacks, this law was pointed to for the abolition of slavery and the right to vote and various other civil laws. Without such laws, there is no guiding principle, nothing to measure the government's and individual's actions against. You can identify it is wrong to bribe a policeman, not because of some moral thing in your head but more because the law does not say "in the event of being pulled over by a policeman for a traffic offence you may either opt to receive a ticket or pay into the policeman's retirement fund directly to the officer" or that there isn't now such law that says " An elected official may receive 20 million roubles a year in donations and contributions, by those who wish to assist him in the decision making process." Or "The ruling party, at their discretion, may elect to increase their voting percentage in an election, if they deem a majority of votes to them won't be forthcoming".

mds45
18-07-2012, 14:42
I am an IP lawyer and to study IP law I had to go to France. Russian IP law is less laughable now than it was in 1999 when I entered the Russian uni... but still has a lot of room for improvement.
Rospatent and courts' activity is questionable. As to Mr Putin and "mafia".. it's again about who and how benefits from the laws, not the laws themselves.

Your post reminded me of the recent case on "Volodya i medvedi" trademark for vodka:
http://rapsinews.com/judicial_news/20120626/263582996.html

Rospatent, being an executive body, woudn't register the mark on absolute grounds (against public interest), while the courts (up to the Supreme Court) didn't see nuisance, if any, to Mr Putin's and the leading party's reputation as qualifying for being "against public interest".

Perhaps, Russia is not that hopeless.

I agree a lot of room for improvement , but I's still a joke - especially the court in St Petersburg ! which is the most corupt court in the land - bar none ( forgive the pun ))

Inola
18-07-2012, 15:00
I agree a lot of room for improvement , but I's still a joke - especially the court in St Petersburg ! which is the most corupt court in the land - bar none ( forgive the pun ))

Thanks for the info :) I'll now be more suspicious when suggested I accepted St Pet arbitrage court as venue for settling contractual issues.