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MickeyTong
08-07-2012, 22:36
I'm sure someone can explain/rationalise what this is about.

http://englishrussia.com/2012/07/05/worshipping-the-chair/#more-104412

Benedikt
08-07-2012, 23:04
I'm sure someone can explain/rationalise what this is about.

http://englishrussia.com/2012/07/05/worshipping-the-chair/#more-104412



Why do catholics worship the shroud in Turin, when we KNOW it is a fake.
Why do people go to the little French town of Lourdes to pray for help and Miracles?
Why walk millions of Moslems 3x around the Kaaba in Mekka, when it is just a Meteorite stone, or whatever is there?

It does not matter what -WE- believe, it matters to -THEM- that they believe.
That is what religion is all about it. If you believe you don't need any proof. And if yo udon't believe, all the prove in the world will not convince you. As simple as that.

Merry Mary
08-07-2012, 23:09
Well I guess it's cos someone saint has died in it. Now it's holy.

Suvorov
09-07-2012, 00:12
Good thing he didn't die while taking a sh*t then.

rusmeister
11-07-2012, 23:42
Actually, I CAN explain it. But not to people who don't honestly want to know, who only want to laugh, whose ignorance rivals that of aborigines laughing at a small group of Europeans pulling out tiny pistols.

If there's anyone who is just curious, who doesn't it that description, I'll explain it to them.

Lost in moscow
12-07-2012, 00:14
Lmao, cut the crap and explain, stop trolling )

martpark
12-07-2012, 08:42
A case of 'divan' intervention.

rusmeister
12-07-2012, 08:49
Lmao, cut the crap and explain, stop trolling )

The lmao and the accusation of trolling are why I won't. A general apology and sincere question WOULD, however, elicit the explanation.

If you were one of the few scientists in history being persecuted by the Roman Church (which I don't support anyway) being asked to give reasons for why you think the earth goes around the sun (lmao) instead of the obvious fact that the sun goes around the earth, and knew that your answer would be ignored in advance, you wouldn't be motivated much to answer the trolls, yourself.

rusmeister
12-07-2012, 08:55
A case of 'divan' intervention.

Pun appreciated. :)

Ghostly Presence
12-07-2012, 10:34
Actually, I CAN explain it. But not to people who don't honestly want to know, who only want to laugh, whose ignorance rivals that of aborigines laughing at a small group of Europeans pulling out tiny pistols.

If there's anyone who is just curious, who doesn't it that description, I'll explain it to them.

I am sorry but comparing us to aborigines does not fit the situation. Who is worshipping the chair after all? :) Didn't Christ tell you not to create idols? In this case this is not even an idol......this is a piece of furniture upon which a man's ass once rested!!!!

If there is any reason left in you, you have to agree that this looks entirely ridiculous and I can not possibly think of any rationale that could explain this strange ceremony...

Unless this is all photoshop, of course....

okiey
12-07-2012, 14:06
Well I guess it's cos someone saint has died in it. Now it's holy.

A Saint cannot die:-)

Inola
12-07-2012, 15:29
Actually, I CAN explain it. But not to people who don't honestly want to know, who only want to laugh, whose ignorance rivals that of aborigines laughing at a small group of Europeans pulling out tiny pistols.

If there's anyone who is just curious, who doesn't it that description, I'll explain it to them.

OMG, Rus is tired of casting pearls before swine... am witnessing a miracle :D

On a serious note, I think either they didn't have the altar for the icons you can see standing on the chair, or the chair belongs to some outstanding person and they are using the chair to commemorate the guy, not to worship the chair itself.

rusmeister
12-07-2012, 17:11
I am sorry but comparing us to aborigines does not fit the situation. Who is worshipping the chair after all? :) Didn't Christ tell you not to create idols? In this case this is not even an idol......this is a piece of furniture upon which a man's ass once rested!!!!

If there is any reason left in you, you have to agree that this looks entirely ridiculous and I can not possibly think of any rationale that could explain this strange ceremony...

Unless this is all photoshop, of course....
GP, does the aborigine shoe fit? If not, maybe you would ask a question in an honest spirit of desiring to understand, rather than pose rhetorical questions to which you already know the answers.

If you ever come to realize at you really don't know what the people are doing and why - they are not worshiping the chair at all; you only interpret it that way - and ask in a friendly manner, I'll be happy to try to answer. Until then...

Ghostly Presence
12-07-2012, 20:40
GP, does the aborigine shoe fit? If not, maybe you would ask a question in an honest spirit of desiring to understand, rather than pose rhetorical questions to which you already know the answers.

If you ever come to realize at you really don't know what the people are doing and why - they are not worshiping the chair at all; you only interpret it that way - and ask in a friendly manner, I'll be happy to try to answer. Until then...

OK - I am sorry. I would honestly be curious to understand the meaning of that ceremony. I can not promise you that having received an explanation I will be struck with awe and respect for the chair or for whoever once sat in it, but at least I will be able to form an educated opinion on this. Right now I do confess - I absolutely do not understand what is going on on these photos. So, an explanation would be appreciated.

Ghostly Presence
12-07-2012, 21:34
I sincerely do not understand where the ROC's infatuation with bones, pieces of clothing, icons, chairs (as in this case) etc. and even the so called "saints" comes from. I know for a fact that not only non-Christians but also some of the most fundamentalist Christians such as the Southern Baptists in the US find this infatuation strange with no basis for it in the Gospel. Isn't worshipping all those items distracting you from worshipping the only true God? Where in the Bible do you find basis for worshipping someone's items of clothing or someone's bones? One thing is to pay homage to a man's place of burial or to his intellectual heritage, but to make an idol of his clothing or a set of bones??? Grotesque........

Moreover, who in ROC decides that a certain item is "holy"? Some high priests? Are they all wearing obscenely expensive watches during those sanctification sessions? :)

Is there any good explanation for this? If this is just a national tradition - that is fine, but let's not mix holiness into it.

Benedikt
12-07-2012, 22:11
and the Moslems walk 3 times around the Kaaba in Mecca, which is apparently just a meteorite.
People/believers need something physical to where they can worship, just something up in the heavens without an earthly picture is not enough.Nothing wrong with that.
As long as no one wants to force me to change to what i pray now.

bydand
12-07-2012, 22:45
As long as no one wants to force me to change to what i pray now.

Let us pray...

Benedikt
12-07-2012, 23:31
Let us pray...


and peace to all men of goodwill.( sorry this is not politically correct should be men and women...)

rusmeister
13-07-2012, 00:08
OK - I am sorry. I would honestly be curious to understand the meaning of that ceremony. I can not promise you that having received an explanation I will be struck with awe and respect for the chair or for whoever once sat in it, but at least I will be able to form an educated opinion on this. Right now I do confess - I absolutely do not understand what is going on on these photos. So, an explanation would be appreciated.
OK. Step one is who is that guy in the photos?
It's St John Maximovich of Shanghai and San Francisco.

John of Shanghai and San Francisco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Reading that will give some illumination.

So what's going on?
July 2nd is his feast day, when he is commemorated. A total ascetic, he never slept in a bed. Spent much of the latter part of his life in that chair, so it's a relic. Explaining relics to outsiders would require an entire lecture. The shortest I can do is this:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Icons
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Veneration
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Relics

At least you'll be able to talk somewhat knowledgeably about the topics, and get what they are doing. But from my own exerience, I can tell you that in Orthodox theology, knowledge comes in layers. There are explanations for dummies - basic stuff, and then there are more complex understandings. If you want the goods on theology, ask Bogatyr. My specialty is apologetics.

But my cheap, short explanation is that venerating is not worship, it is what we do when we salute our flag or kiss our dear departed mother's photo. We aren't worshiping them. We are showing respect, honor, and love.

Icons are representations of the real thing. We don't worship the wood. We venerate the person and what they stand for and the deeds and life that we need to try to emulate.

On relics, we seem to have no problem with people making a big deal about catching baseballs or hockey pucks hit by professional stars and putting them on our mantlepiece. We want to touch greatness, and want it to inspire us.
How much more, then, we should want to touch the greatness of eternity, manifested in the physical world!

It isn't magic. Everything is grace, a gift. It's not the same as the pagan, "I worship you, and you give me what I want". It's expression of thankfulness, gratitude and respect. Are these not good things that we all could use more of?

There's a lot more - that just scratches the surface. But hopefully, it makes clear that the people in the photos are not lunatics, just deeply misunderstood.

rusmeister
13-07-2012, 00:35
I sincerely do not understand where the ROC's infatuation with bones, pieces of clothing, icons, chairs (as in this case) etc. and even the so called "saints" comes from. I know for a fact that not only non-Christians but also some of the most fundamentalist Christians such as the Southern Baptists in the US find this infatuation strange with no basis for it in the Gospel. Isn't worshipping all those items distracting you from worshipping the only true God? Where in the Bible do you find basis for worshipping someone's items of clothing or someone's bones? One thing is to pay homage to a man's place of burial or to his intellectual heritage, but to make an idol of his clothing or a set of bones??? Grotesque........

Moreover, who in ROC decides that a certain item is "holy"? Some high priests? Are they all wearing obscenely expensive watches during those sanctification sessions? :)

Is there any good explanation for this? If this is just a national tradition - that is fine, but let's not mix holiness into it.
I'm not sure if the question is sincere or not. You say "let's not mix holiness into it". How not, if it is precisely about holiness? Do you (again) already know the answers?

Look, I was raised Baptist before going agnostic as an adult. I totally get the Protestant ignorance on the topics and their bases for belief. As soon as you say, "... No basis in the Gospel" and "where in the Bible..." you reveal the Sola Scriptura assumption that all practices must be spelled out in the Bible. That pews and pulpits are not written there either usually escapes their notice, but the real point is that we don't start from that fallacious idea. If a thing can be logically inferred, then it may, and perhaps must be practiced. Hymnal books are logical, though not prescribed in Scripture. They assist Protestants in the injunction to sing hymns and psalms and spiritual songs.

What you imagine to be grotesque is your emotional prejudice. Middle Eastern Muslims find it grotesque that many of us use our right hands to wipe our butts - but that's a reaction found on cultural practices of theirs that are irrelevant to us.

Hopefully, the other links have revealed to you by now that they are not worshiping the objects, and that veneration does the very opposite of distracting - it draws us into the worship of God.

We start off by being very skeptical of claims of miracles. When, over a long time and many confirmations it is agreed that miracles have indeed taken place, they begin a glorification process that goes up the hierarchy to the Bishop or Metropolitan. But that takes a long time in Orthodoxy. St John died less rhan fifty years ago, and I think it took thirty years to glorify him, and that is FAST by our standards.

Regarding the question of whether all, most, or even many priests where obscenely expensive watches, you need to go and observe for yourself instead of reading all kinds of propaganda. A few trips to a few local churches would take the same time as all this posting, and be far more instructive. My assertions won't convince you. Your own personal experience will. Once you get, via that personal experience, that many of the media claims are untrue or misrepresented, then you might begin to see everything very differently, and learn who is really pulling the wool over our eyes. As long as your info is all internet-based, it will have a high degree of inaccuracy. Unlike the fundamental Baptists I grew up with, Orthodox do not jump on visitors and try to convert them. They just say "Come and see!"

Ghostly Presence
13-07-2012, 09:24
Rusmeister,

Thanks for clarifications. The description of relics in the sources that you provided in you post is as follows:

"The relics of the saints are venerated because in Orthodox belief the body remains temple of the Holy Spirit even after death."

This explains ROC's fascination with bones and dead bodies but it does not explain kneeling before a chair. A chair is not a body. It's a piece of furniture. Are you implying that the Holy Spirit resides in a chair as well? Aren't you taking it too far?

Besides, how many of ROC's average members understand the difference between veneration and worship? Aren't you afraid that you might be confusing your followers by the fine nuances of worship and veneration and thus leading them (albeit unintentionaly) to worship and pray to bones and chairs instead of God?

Ghostly Presence
13-07-2012, 12:16
Rusmeister,

One more clarifying question. You wrote:

"We start off by being very skeptical of claims of miracles. When, over a long time and many confirmations it is agreed that miracles have indeed taken place, they begin a glorification process that goes up the hierarchy to the Bishop or Metropolitan. But that takes a long time in Orthodoxy. St John died less rhan fifty years ago, and I think it took thirty years to glorify him, and that is FAST by our standards."

What miracles did the chair perform to justify kneeling and praying before it? Did it heal someone? Does it ooze something? What is it?

By the way, Russian Tzar Peter I was one of the people who discovered the true nature of the "miracle" of oozing a long time ago:

Известен случай публичного разоблачения императором Петром Первым искусственного мироточения:

Его Величество скоро нашел в глазах у образа весьма малые и почти совсем неприметные дырочки, которые наведенная в том месте тень делала еще неприметнее. Он, оборотивши доску, отодрал оклад, и выломивши переклад или связь, какая обыкновенно бывает у образов на другой стороне, к удовольствию своему увидел справедливость своей догадки и открыл обман и источник слез; а именно: в доске против глаз у образа сделаны были ямки, в которых положено было несколько густого деревянного масла, и которые закрывались задним перекладом. „Вот источник чудесных слез!“— сказал Государь. Каждый из присутствующих должен был подойти видеть своими глазами сей хитрый обман.
Потом мудрый Монарх толковал окружавшим его, как отовсюду закрытое сгустившееся масло в холодном месте могло столь долго держаться, и как оно в помянутые дырочки в глазах у образа вытекало наподобие слез, растаявши от теплоты, когда то место, против которого оно лежало, нагревалось от свеч, зажигаемых перед образом

Данная история получила легендарное продолжение в виде вымышленного предписания Петра I: Владыки святые! Приказываю, чтобы Богородицы отныне не плакали. А если Богородица ещё хотя бы раз заплачет лампадным маслом, то зады у попов заплачут кровью

This is way too funny! :)

MickeyTong
13-07-2012, 13:19
What miracles did the chair perform to justify kneeling and praying before it? Did it heal someone? Does it ooze something? What is it?


Fetishism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Фетишизм — Википедия

Korotky Gennady
13-07-2012, 13:33
I'm sure someone can explain/rationalise what this is about.
becoz it's not a ordinary chair... It's the chair for worshiping.


Lets be serious. If you give me a ticket to Paradise I will be ready to worship even The Virgin Mary's black shoes. :)))

Ghostly Presence
13-07-2012, 14:24
Fetishism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetishism)

Фетишизм — Википедия (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC)

Thanks for the useful link, Mickey! This only confirms that ROC simply perpetuates a heathen tradition by worshipping bones and chairs. These strange rites have nothing to do with the true spirit of the Gospel - this is something that ROC built up on top of the Gospel's message for whatever reason.

rusmeister
13-07-2012, 14:53
Rusmeister,

Thanks for clarifications. The description of relics in the sources that you provided in you post is as follows:

"The relics of the saints are venerated because in Orthodox belief the body remains temple of the Holy Spirit even after death."

This explains ROC's fascination with bones and dead bodies but it does not explain kneeling before a chair. A chair is not a body. It's a piece of furniture. Are you implying that the Holy Spirit resides in a chair as well? Aren't you taking it too far?

Besides, how many of ROC's average members understand the difference between veneration and worship? Aren't you afraid that you might be confusing your followers by the fine nuances of worship and veneration and thus leading them (albeit unintentionaly) to worship and pray to bones and chairs instead of God?

GP, I'm getting tired of your unreasonable assumptions. THERE. IS. AN. ICON. ON . THE. CHAIR. Nobody says that chairs go around performing miracles. If you refuse to try to understand that, or my position, then you are willfully ignorant, and another 'ignore list' candidate. Either you open your ears, or I'll ignore what is beginning to look like another case of rabid propaganda. Your thoughts are not original. You are repeating what you have been told, without ever finding out on your own.

Until you go back, read my words more carefully and try to set your advance judgements aside, I'll ignore further questions.

rusmeister
13-07-2012, 14:57
Fetishism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetishism)

Фетишизм — Википедия (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC)

For me, all of this confirms the deep prejudices held by people who never wanted to find out what the Christian Church had to say to them, only to attack it unreasoningly. Most disappointing of all, Mickey, is you. I know you got burned in Islam, but I also know that you are aware of deep thought, even in Islam, and must be able to grasp that some of those deep thinkers were part of the organized religions that you sling mud at, above all, the Orthodox one, which you never experienced. I expect 25-yr-olds to have their heads full of nonsense ideas from the media and public education, but you've seen more and better.

I had thought better of you, and saw in you someone who I could respect, even though disagreeing deeply. This, though, rates no respect at all. You're reacting just like the twenty-somethings who have simply been indoctrinated and get all of their info from the mainstream press. Do a little research - from Orthodox sources. ASK for deeper clarification on how they can see what they see. You have the capability of thinking - USE it!! Show that you KNOW what their understandings are before you attack. THAT is the only kind of objection worth any respect.

Inola
13-07-2012, 15:03
For me, all of this confirms the deep prejudices held by people who never wanted to find out what the Christian Church had to say to them, only to attack it unreasoningly. Most disappointing of all, Mickey, is you. I know you got burned in Islam, but I also know that you are aware of deep thought, even in Islam, and must be able to grasp that some of those deep thinkers were part of the organized religions that you sling mud at, above all, the Orthodox one, which you never experienced. I expect 25-yr-olds to have their heads full of nonsense ideas from the media and public education, but you've seen more and better.

I had thought better of you, and saw in you someone who I could respect, even though disagreeing deeply. This, though, rates no respect at all. You're reacting just like the twenty-somethings who have simply been indoctrinated and get all of their info from the mainstream press. Do a little research - from Orthodox sources. ASK for deeper clarification on how they can see what they see. You have the capability of thinking - USE it!! Show that you KNOW what their understandings are before you attack. THAT is the only kind of objection worth any respect.

Come on, Rusmeister,

Can't you see, people deliberately trolling, writing nonsense in this thread? The whole article in the OP could not be more stupid than it is... You have made a very valuable contribution by explaining us all what and who the ceremony was about.. Which means everybody who read your explanation now knows more than the authors of that stupid article and more than the people who had read it and remained clueless... So, thank you for being member of these forums and for your patience with us all :)

Korotky Gennady
13-07-2012, 15:04
Fetishism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetishism)

Фе‚иˆизм €” ’икипедия (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%B5%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%BC) The disgusting article by the way.

No word about christian, muslim ans buddist fetishes... Shame on the heads of people who control Wikipedia.

They don't give us objective information. They simply try to be "politcorrrect" all the time when their materials touch socially significant questions.

Korotky Gennady
13-07-2012, 15:07
Can't you see, people deliberately trolling, writing nonsense in this thread?
:)

Not at all. We fight the fetishists in this thread.

Inola
13-07-2012, 15:10
Not at all. We fight the fetishists in this thread.

Any fetishists in here? Hide, quickly!!! Gennady is here to fight you!:fudd:

Korotky Gennady
13-07-2012, 15:13
Any fetishists in here? Hide, quickly!!! Gennady is here to fight you!:fudd: Rus even doesn't hide.

And well... we fight them only verbally.

Inola
13-07-2012, 15:49
And well... we fight them only verbally.

Thank you, Captain Obvious! :D

Ghostly Presence
13-07-2012, 15:52
For me, all of this confirms the deep prejudices held by people who never wanted to find out what the Christian Church had to say to them, only to attack it unreasoningly. Most disappointing of all, Mickey, is you. I know you got burned in Islam, but I also know that you are aware of deep thought, even in Islam, and must be able to grasp that some of those deep thinkers were part of the organized religions that you sling mud at, above all, the Orthodox one, which you never experienced. I expect 25-yr-olds to have their heads full of nonsense ideas from the media and public education, but you've seen more and better.

I had thought better of you, and saw in you someone who I could respect, even though disagreeing deeply. This, though, rates no respect at all. You're reacting just like the twenty-somethings who have simply been indoctrinated and get all of their info from the mainstream press. Do a little research - from Orthodox sources. ASK for deeper clarification on how they can see what they see. You have the capability of thinking - USE it!! Show that you KNOW what their understandings are before you attack. THAT is the only kind of objection worth any respect.

Good Lord, that's a lot of anger directed at a guy for simply posting a link about something that looks very much like modern-day rites and beliefs practiced by and held by the ROC!
I think Mickey's post was completely relevant and helped to draw very clear and useful parallels between heathens of the past and the ROC of the modern day.

rusmeister
13-07-2012, 15:59
Good Lord, that's a lot of anger directed at a guy for simply posting a link about something that looks very much like modern-day rites and beliefs practiced by and held by the ROC!
I think Mickey's post was completely relevant and helped to draw very clear and useful parallels between heathens of the past and the ROC of the modern day.

GP, you don't know my history with Mickey, so naturally, you don't understand. That you think it anger emphasizes your not understanding.

As it happens, I DO think there were good things in the pagan world, and the Christian Church validated and perpetuated them. But the source material Mickey draws on is ignorant of all that.

Ghostly Presence
13-07-2012, 15:59
GP, I'm getting tired of your unreasonable assumptions. THERE. IS. AN. ICON. ON . THE. CHAIR. Nobody says that chairs go around performing miracles. If you refuse to try to understand that, or my position, then you are willfully ignorant, and another 'ignore list' candidate. Either you open your ears, or I'll ignore what is beginning to look like another case of rabid propaganda. Your thoughts are not original. You are repeating what you have been told, without ever finding out on your own.

Until you go back, read my words more carefully and try to set your advance judgements aside, I'll ignore further questions.

You did not asnwer my simple and straightforward question:

"Besides, how many of ROC's average members understand the difference between veneration and worship? Aren't you afraid that you might be confusing your followers by the fine nuances of worship and veneration and thus leading them (albeit unintentionaly) to worship and pray to bones and chairs instead of God?"

I am asking this only because I know for a fact that average believers do get confused. Once I was yelled at by some Church freak for sitting on a Church newspaper that I purchased from him shortly before the incident. Apparently even church newspapers are holy! So I do know that ROC's practices lead people to worshipping all kinds of stuff that has nothing to do with the true spirit and message of Christianity.

rusmeister
13-07-2012, 16:11
Come on, Rusmeister,

Can't you see, people deliberately trolling, writing nonsense in this thread? The whole article in the OP could not be more stupid than it is... You have made a very valuable contribution by explaining us all what and who the ceremony was about.. Which means everybody who read your explanation now knows more than the authors of that stupid article and more than the people who had read it and remained clueless... So, thank you for being member of these forums and for your patience with us all :)
Thanks much, Inola.
I think that even a "troll" to still have something human in them that might be touched by truth. They are not my enemies, and those who refuse to see need to be pitied, not hated. Think of the dwarves in CS Lewis's "The Last Battle" in the stable, blind by their own design and determination, unable to see the gr**** flowers, trees, or enjoy anything around them.
http://vox-nova.com/2009/09/20/c-s-lewis-and-the-mind-only-prison/
And perhaps one or two might yet come to see the difference between propaganda and truth, to distinguish between what matters and what doesn't. I think that would make it all worth it. Fr Victor Sokolov took the time to listen to me and my objections when I was struggling against faith.
Victor Sokolov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Inola
13-07-2012, 16:12
You did not asnwer my simple and straightforward question:

"Besides, how many of ROC's average members understand the difference between veneration and worship? Aren't you afraid that you might be confusing your followers by the fine nuances of worship and veneration and thus leading them (albeit unintentionaly) to worship and pray to bones and chairs instead of God?"

I am asking this only because I know for a fact that average believers do get confused. Once I was yelled at by some Church freak for sitting on a Church newspaper that I purchased from him shortly before the incident. Apparently even church newspapers are holy! So I do know that ROC's practices lead people to worshipping all kinds of stuff that has nothing to do with the true spirit and message of Christianity.

Sorry, but your saying there is no difference between Orthodoxe rituals and fetishism just shows you don't know much, or what is more probable - nothing at all, about what true believers might think, know or get confused about...
Reminded me of Fonvizin's "The Minor": "Мне поверь, батюшка, что, конечно, то вздор, чего не знает Митрофанушка."

rusmeister
13-07-2012, 16:27
You did not asnwer my simple and straightforward question:

"Besides, how many of ROC's average members understand the difference between veneration and worship? Aren't you afraid that you might be confusing your followers by the fine nuances of worship and veneration and thus leading them (albeit unintentionaly) to worship and pray to bones and chairs instead of God?"

I am asking this only because I know for a fact that average believers do get confused. Once I was yelled at by some Church freak for sitting on a Church newspaper that I purchased from him shortly before the incident. Apparently even church newspapers are holy! So I do know that ROC's practices lead people to worshipping all kinds of stuff that has nothing to do with the true spirit and message of Christianity.
How many? 99.99%, with .01% finding out within a few weeks.
No, not afraid of confusing.
Simple and straightforward answers.

You have no idea of average believers. You have to be one to begin to get that idea. The confusion is yours. You refuse to ask what things are; you think you already know. There is a response to the sitting on newspaper thing. But I don't want to give it, because I gave you a second chance already in explaining the chair and icon thing, which you went on to ignore. You will similarly ignore anything I say about newspapers. You know everything already, GP. What Orthodox Christian would have the insolence to try to explain to you what they believe? You know better than them. You must be able to read their hearts and minds.

Swordfish90293
13-07-2012, 16:35
How many? 99.99%, with .01% finding out within a few weeks.
No, not afraid of confusing.
Simple and straightforward answers.

You have no idea of average believers. You have to be one to begin to get that idea. The confusion is yours. You refuse to ask what things are; you think you already know. There is a response to the sitting on newspaper thing. But I don't want to give it, because I gave you a second chance already in explaining the chair and icon thing, which you went on to ignore. You will similarly ignore anything I say about newspapers. You know everything already, GP. What Orthodox Christian would have the insolence to try to explain to you what they believe? You know better than them. You must be able to read their hearts and minds.

Quite judgmental and intolerant...

Korotky Gennady
13-07-2012, 16:53
Thank you, Captain Obvious! :D You are welcome little girl.

I used to work with russian students so it's not strange that sometimes I sound too obviously. I am student's brains oriented with considering their limited abilities. ;))))

Ghostly Presence
13-07-2012, 17:19
How many? 99.99%, with .01% finding out within a few weeks.
No, not afraid of confusing.
Simple and straightforward answers.

You have no idea of average believers. You have to be one to begin to get that idea. The confusion is yours. You refuse to ask what things are; you think you already know. There is a response to the sitting on newspaper thing. But I don't want to give it, because I gave you a second chance already in explaining the chair and icon thing, which you went on to ignore. You will similarly ignore anything I say about newspapers. You know everything already, GP. What Orthodox Christian would have the insolence to try to explain to you what they believe? You know better than them. You must be able to read their hearts and minds.

I did not ignore your response about the chair and the icon. I get the idea, I understand where you come from but because of that your beliefs, that require you to place a picture on a chair and then kneel before them and pray, do not begin to look any less weird to me. Whatever philosiphical wrapping you use to justify this ceremony, you still end up kneeling and praying before a CHAIR.

As for the church newspaper, I am sorry but there is absolutely no justification for calling that piece of paper holy too. I will sit on whatever paper I choose to, especially if I paid for it. Does that mean that by doing this I will be instigating "religious intolerance"? I bet some of your fellow worshipers would claim that! Take me to court for it! I am sure that you would easily win the case as your ROC guys have kissed up to the Russian state well enough to get whatever the hell you want out of our legal system! You are on Putin's good side so with that kind of protection you don't even need God to look after your organization - you guys are already well taken care of!

Inola
13-07-2012, 17:35
I did not ignore your response about the chair and the icon. I get the idea, I understand where you come from but because of that your beliefs, that require you to place a picture on a chair and then kneel before them and pray, do not begin to look any less weird to me. Whatever philosiphical wrapping you use to justify this ceremony, you still end up kneeling and praying before a CHAIR.

As for the church newspaper, I am sorry but there is absolutely no justification for calling that piece of paper holy too. I will sit on whatever paper I choose to, especially if I paid for it. Does that mean that by doing this I will be instigating "religious intolerance"? I bet some of your fellow worshipers would claim that! Take me to court for it! I am sure that you would easily win the case as your ROC guys have kissed up to the Russian state well enough to get whatever the hell you want out of our legal system! You are on Putin's good side so with that kind of protection you don't even need God to look after your organization - you guys are already well taken care of!

Why on earth do you put all in the same pile: religion, the church (as organisation), politicians, ordinary belivers, fetishists, concept of holliness, chairs, icons, paper, your **** god knows what else.., mix them up, don't like the result of your doing - and get insulted into the bargain, all on your own? :D I just don't get it :D

yakspeare
13-07-2012, 17:36
You are welcome little girl.

I used to work with russian students so it's not strange that sometimes I sound too obviously. I am student's brains oriented with considering their limited abilities. ;))))

little girl? I hope you don't belittle your students as such.

Inola
13-07-2012, 17:49
You are welcome little girl.

I used to work with russian students so it's not strange that sometimes I sound too obviously. I am student's brains oriented with considering their limited abilities. ;))))

Hope it was not the English language you wre teaching them...

rusmeister
13-07-2012, 18:02
Quite judgmental and intolerant...
I know. But I was trying not to say that...

rusmeister
13-07-2012, 18:07
I did not ignore your response about the chair and the icon. I get the idea, I understand where you come from but because of that your beliefs, that require you to place a picture on a chair and then kneel before them and pray, do not begin to look any less weird to me. Whatever philosiphical wrapping you use to justify this ceremony, you still end up kneeling and praying before a CHAIR.

As for the church newspaper, I am sorry but there is absolutely no justification for calling that piece of paper holy too. I will sit on whatever paper I choose to, especially if I paid for it. Does that mean that by doing this I will be instigating "religious intolerance"? I bet some of your fellow worshipers would claim that! Take me to court for it! I am sure that you would easily win the case as your ROC guys have kissed up to the Russian state well enough to get whatever the hell you want out of our legal system! You are on Putin's good side so with that kind of protection you don't even need God to look after your organization - you guys are already well taken care of!

Shaking hands looks weird to anyone who has never encountered the custom. That does not make the people who do it either weird or fanatic. It only means that you don't make the effort to understand what they see in what they are doing.

As I said, you already know the answers and you do not ask what the other guy's worldview or take on it might be. You already know everything. That's why you can whistle dixie on the newspaper.

Reminds me of the movie Avatar, when Neytiri is telling Jake that as long as his cup is already full, he can't take anything in.

Korotky Gennady
13-07-2012, 18:30
little girl? I hope you don't belittle your students as such.

Look at her avatar please.

Korotky Gennady
13-07-2012, 18:32
Hope it was not the English language you wre teaching them...



Of course no... Even russian language I don't know perfectly.

But what's problem with my english ? :)))

Korotky Gennady
13-07-2012, 19:20
and the Moslems walk 3 times around the Kaaba in Mecca, which is apparently just a meteorite.
People/believers need something physical to where they can worship, just something up in the heavens without an earthly picture is not enough.Nothing wrong with that.

As long as no one wants to force me to change to what i pray now.Benedikt, pray anything you want. It's not the problem for me. The problem is why is the man who doesn't pray... not allowed to express his (her) opinions about all these evil fetishes.

Here and on the West.

MickeyTong
13-07-2012, 21:22
For me, all of this confirms the deep prejudices held by people who never wanted to find out what the Christian Church had to say to them, only to attack it unreasoningly. Most disappointing of all, Mickey, is you. I know you got burned in Islam, but I also know that you are aware of deep thought, even in Islam, and must be able to grasp that some of those deep thinkers were part of the organized religions that you sling mud at, above all, the Orthodox one, which you never experienced. I expect 25-yr-olds to have their heads full of nonsense ideas from the media and public education, but you've seen more and better.

I had thought better of you, and saw in you someone who I could respect, even though disagreeing deeply. This, though, rates no respect at all. You're reacting just like the twenty-somethings who have simply been indoctrinated and get all of their info from the mainstream press. Do a little research - from Orthodox sources. ASK for deeper clarification on how they can see what they see. You have the capability of thinking - USE it!! Show that you KNOW what their understandings are before you attack. THAT is the only kind of objection worth any respect.

Does this mean you are resigning from my fan club, Rus? Sorry if I didn't respond to your explanation as you would have liked, but did you really expect me to? I read the Orthodox sources you linked to. I appreciate that relics and icons can be useful aides memoire and that it is fitting that they be treated with respect, but the idea that they contain or transmit supernatural power is.....fetishism. Perhaps you would argue that Orthodox relics and icons are the only true channels of divine grace and that the fetish objects of other religions are ineffective "lucky charms", or transmit demonic powers, but that would just be special pleading. (And that would be something I would expect from an indoctrinated twenty-something.)

yakspeare
13-07-2012, 21:26
Look at her avatar please.

so what am I, cowboy? Cossak? part of the tatar horde?Tamerlane?

and what are you with the "OMFG someone turned the webcam on" look?


You are going to mock someone's argument because they chose to have the avatar of a cute child?

Do you understand? Or perhaps I am not so "obviously"?

Swordfish90293
13-07-2012, 22:01
Originally Posted by Swordfish90293 View Post

"Quite judgmental and intolerant..."

I know. But I was trying not to say that...
I know. But I was trying not to say that...

...and quite full of yourself.

Ghostly Presence
13-07-2012, 23:37
It only means that you don't make the effort to understand what they see in what they are doing.


Rusmeister,

Your problem is that you think that people in general and I personally criticize ROC’s approach to faith because we don’t know any better. You seem to believe that once you explain things to us, we immediately will see the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, and will ask you to move over so that we could join you in that prayer before a chair with an icon or before some other piece of Orthodox paraphernalia.

Has it ever occurred to you that even though I understand the logic behind your beliefs and religious practices that stem from those beliefs, I still might find them disagreeable? You seem unable to fathom this and that is exactly your problem.

You guys have created a religion that smacks too much of a cult with your endless row of “holy” items in the form of pieces of clothing, icons, mummified body parts and entire mummified bodies of the so called saints whom you yourselves have sanctified. You are like the Communists with their dried-up body of Lenin.

God is accessible to all through a prayer. All that tangible crap that you value so much will eventually be evaporated into oblivion by the forces of decay and time, but God is here to stay. I sincerely believe that all your “holy” paraphernalia only distracts people from that simple thought.

rusmeister
14-07-2012, 01:51
Does this mean you are resigning from my fan club, Rus? Sorry if I didn't respond to your explanation as you would have liked, but did you really expect me to? I read the Orthodox sources you linked to. I appreciate that relics and icons can be useful aides memoire and that it is fitting that they be treated with respect, but the idea that they contain or transmit supernatural power is.....fetishism. Perhaps you would argue that Orthodox relics and icons are the only true channels of divine grace and that the fetish objects of other religions are ineffective "lucky charms", or transmit demonic powers, but that would just be special pleading. (And that would be something I would expect from an indoctrinated twenty-something.)

Hey, Mickey,
You linked to certain sites, which expressed an extremely superficial, and to us, largely irrelevant connection. That you think it "fetishism" (presumably as defined on that site) says to me that you don't understand what we see things to be.

I find objections that SHOW understanding of our basic conceptions to be much more mature and challenging than those that grab a photo, make assumptions, and never ask.

What you WOULDN'T expect from an indoctrinated twenty-something would be questions that seek to thoroughly understand what they disagree with. You expect them to simply parrot the propaganda they have been taught.

rusmeister
14-07-2012, 02:00
Rusmeister,

Your problem is that you think that people in general and I personally criticize ROCs approach to faith because we dont know any better. You seem to believe that once you explain things to us, we immediately will see the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, and will ask you to move over so that we could join you in that prayer before a chair with an icon or before some other piece of Orthodox paraphernalia.

Has it ever occurred to you that even though I understand the logic behind your beliefs and religious practices that stem from those beliefs, I still might find them disagreeable? You seem unable to fathom this and that is exactly your problem.

You guys have created a religion that smacks too much of a cult with your endless row of holy items in the form of pieces of clothing, icons, mummified body parts and entire mummified bodies of the so called saints whom you yourselves have sanctified. You are like the Communists with their dried-up body of Lenin.

God is accessible to all through a prayer. All that tangible crap that you value so much will eventually be evaporated into oblivion by the forces of decay and time, but God is here to stay. I sincerely believe that all your holy paraphernalia only distracts people from that simple thought.

On your first sentence, yes, I do think you don't know better. I believe you are speaking according to the best that you know. I do not think that you DO know better, but are writing nonsense for the heck of it. But I DON'T think that once I explain things to you, you will "see the light". You might see one part of it, on one point say, "Yeah, on that I guess you're right."

I get that you find the practices disagreeable. I do NOT get that you understand the logic. I see no evidence whatsoever of understanding. To do that, you need to be able to express things in our terms.

I agree that God is accessible to prayer. We claim no "monopoly" on access to God; I get the impression you think we do, which underlines that you do not understand us. I know you sincerely believe things. But you do NOT understand the bases on which WE sincerely believe things. And you don't ask.

Korotky Gennady
14-07-2012, 03:34
so what am I, cowboy? Cossak? part of the tatar horde?Tamerlane?

and what are you with the "OMFG someone turned the webcam on" look?


You are going to mock someone's argument because they chose to have the avatar of a cute child?

Do you understand? Or perhaps I am not so "obviously"? Who are you ? I don't know... Maybe you're a cossak. Maybe australian Tamerlane...

I suppose you are simply a bit frustrated man. If you were not, you didn't write your previous 100 % foolish post and didn't show the such aggressive attitude to me.

yakspeare
14-07-2012, 05:56
Who are you ? I don't know... Maybe you're a cossak. Maybe australian Tamerlane...

I suppose you are simply a bit frustrated man. If you were not, you didn't write your previous 100 % foolish post and didn't show the such aggressive attitude to me.

you know it might be better if you switch to Russian when you address me-I have more chance of understanding and my Russian is not that good.

Korotky Gennady
14-07-2012, 14:53
Sorry, but your saying there is no difference between Orthodoxe rituals and fetishism just shows you don't know much
."
Find two differences then. :))))

It's obvious for every reasonable one that all religious fetishes are alike. And people ascribe to all them the supernatural power...

We, the nowadays scientists, call this cultural phenomenon "idolatry" or "fetishism".

" FETISH - something, especially an inanimate object, that is believed in certain cultures to be the embodiment or habitation of a spirit or magical powers

1. - a form of behaviour involving fetishism
2. - any object that is involved in fetishism ".

shurale
15-07-2012, 04:19
OK. Step one is who is that guy in the photos?
It's St John Maximovich of Shanghai and San Francisco.

John of Shanghai and San Francisco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of_Shanghai_and_San_Francisco)

Reading that will give some illumination.

So what's going on?
July 2nd is his feast day, when he is commemorated. A total ascetic, he never slept in a bed. Spent much of the latter part of his life in that chair, so it's a relic. sic

Did he sleep on a bed of nails? Rakhmetov did.

Inola
15-07-2012, 09:29
Of course no... Even russian language I don't know perfectly.

But what's problem with my english ? :)))

It sucks...

martpark
15-07-2012, 10:52
The Medieval Relic Trade
Throughout the Middle Ages, Europe hosted a thriving trade in holy relics. But many of the relics, if not almost all of them, were fake.

The relics collected and worshipped by medieval Europeans ranged from the mundane to the truly bizarre. Bones or body parts of saints and martyrs were always in high demand. One church proudly displayed the brain of St. Peter until the relic was accidentally moved and revealed to be a piece of pumice stone.

Relics of Christ or the Virgin Mary were considered to be extremely valuable and included items such as the milk of the Virgin Mary, the teeth, hair, and blood of Christ, pieces of the Cross, and samples of the linen Christ was wrapped in as an infant. Numerous churches even claimed to possess Christ's foreskin, cut off during his circumcision. The Shroud of Turin, believed to be the funeral shroud in which Christ was buried, is perhaps the most famous medieval relic of all.

The biggest clue that the relics were fake was that there was often more than one... many more than one... of the same relic. The sixteenth-century protestant reformer John Calvin, who believed the veneration of relics to be a form of false worship, commented that if all the relics were brought together in one place "it would be made manifest that every Apostle has more than four bodies, and every Saint two or three."

The real value of relics lay in their ability to perform miracles. A relic that was an acknowledged fake could become 'real' if it performed a miracle. The European faithful regularly made pilgrimages over hundreds of miles to visit the most powerful relics. This pilgrimage traffic had an enormous impact on local economies, leading towns to go to extreme lengths to obtain the relics that would draw the most pilgrims.

Some of the lengths to which towns would go in their quest to obtain the most popular relics have been documented by Patrick Geary in his book Furta Sacra: Thefts of Relics in the Central Middle Ages. He notes that towns were usually reluctant to simply buy or trade relics. After all, why would anyone willingly sell or part with a miracle-performing relic? Presumably they would only do so it if it no longer possessed its powers, meaning that the relic was worthless. Instead, towns often stole the relics they desired, or surreptitiously bought them while publicly claiming to have stolen them. Relic thefts were highly organized affairs, and the successful thieves were treated as local heroes. Geary tells the story of the Italian town of Bari which in 1087 commissioned a team of thieves to obtain the remains of Saint Nicolas (known more popularly today as Santa Claus) from the Turkish town of Myra. The expedition was a success, and for decades Bari basked in the glory of being the town that owned the stolen bones of Santa Claus.

Korotky Gennady
15-07-2012, 11:14
It sucks... I am not a native speaker... you know. And I never studied english language too.

By the way what does it have to do with the subject of this thread ?

rusmeister
15-07-2012, 12:21
The Medieval Relic Trade
Throughout the Middle Ages, Europe hosted a thriving trade in holy relics. But many of the relics, if not almost all of them, were fake.

The relics collected and worshipped by medieval Europeans ranged from the mundane to the truly bizarre. Bones or body parts of saints and martyrs were always in high demand. One church proudly displayed the brain of St. Peter until the relic was accidentally moved and revealed to be a piece of pumice stone.

Relics of Christ or the Virgin Mary were considered to be extremely valuable and included items such as the milk of the Virgin Mary, the teeth, hair, and blood of Christ, pieces of the Cross, and samples of the linen Christ was wrapped in as an infant. Numerous churches even claimed to possess Christ's foreskin, cut off during his circumcision. The Shroud of Turin, believed to be the funeral shroud in which Christ was buried, is perhaps the most famous medieval relic of all.

The biggest clue that the relics were fake was that there was often more than one... many more than one... of the same relic. The sixteenth-century protestant reformer John Calvin, who believed the veneration of relics to be a form of false worship, commented that if all the relics were brought together in one place "it would be made manifest that every Apostle has more than four bodies, and every Saint two or three."

The real value of relics lay in their ability to perform miracles. A relic that was an acknowledged fake could become 'real' if it performed a miracle. The European faithful regularly made pilgrimages over hundreds of miles to visit the most powerful relics. This pilgrimage traffic had an enormous impact on local economies, leading towns to go to extreme lengths to obtain the relics that would draw the most pilgrims.

Some of the lengths to which towns would go in their quest to obtain the most popular relics have been documented by Patrick Geary in his book Furta Sacra: Thefts of Relics in the Central Middle Ages. He notes that towns were usually reluctant to simply buy or trade relics. After all, why would anyone willingly sell or part with a miracle-performing relic? Presumably they would only do so it if it no longer possessed its powers, meaning that the relic was worthless. Instead, towns often stole the relics they desired, or surreptitiously bought them while publicly claiming to have stolen them. Relic thefts were highly organized affairs, and the successful thieves were treated as local heroes. Geary tells the story of the Italian town of Bari which in 1087 commissioned a team of thieves to obtain the remains of Saint Nicolas (known more popularly today as Santa Claus) from the Turkish town of Myra. The expedition was a success, and for decades Bari basked in the glory of being the town that owned the stolen bones of Santa Claus.

So Mart, if I read you correctly, you're saying that the existence of counterfeits proves that an original cannot exist.

I believe the exact opposite.

I believe the existence of counterfeits makes it a logical probability that the real McCoy exists. The counterfeit pound does not disprove the existence of Bank of England,; on the contrary - it PROVES that a real pound exists to be counterfeited in the first place.

martpark
15-07-2012, 12:30
May 6, 2011 ~ Holy Relics | Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly | PBS

MARTINA BAGNOLI (Curator, Walters Art Museum): A relic is usually a remains of the body of a holy person, could also be something that this holy person had touched. The saints were not touched by sin, and therefore their remains were imbued with the grace and the power of God. Therefore if you prayed to a relic, that is a kind of way of channeling your prayer to heaven. You dont worship the relics or the saint. You venerate them, and that distinction is precisely in order to avoid falling into idolatry.

From the beginning of Christianity, artists were enlisted to create precious containers that would speak of the spiritual power of the content. According to doctrine, Christ and Mary ascended bodily to heaven, so we do not have bodily relics of these two very important figures of Christianity. However, we have reliquaries of the hair of Mary or the milk of Mary. Mostly for Christ you would have relics of the True Cross or other instrument of his passions.

Mary Magdalene and John the Baptist, of course, as well as, you know, Peter and Paul are very precious relics. Here we have two very important reliquaries containing these teeth. In the case of John the Baptist its encased in a very elaborate, beautiful container made of gold and rock crystal.

The Church throughout Christianity was worried about fraudulent use of relics and commerce of relics, and of course to attract pilgrims you needed the relics, so there was a lot of struggle sometimes to get important relics to your church, and sometimes they were even stolen, of course.

Throughout Christianity already from the fourth century onwards we have a lively debate within the Church on the orthodoxy of relics veneration. So you have periodically this outcry against the abuses and the point of it all. After all, Christian religion is about achieving something spiritual, not praying to something material.

I love the arm of Saint Luke. The gesture of the hands really reflect the personality of the apostles in question, Saint Luke being the writer of the Gospel. The hand is shown holding a pen, and also, of course, you have to remember that Saint Luke was also an artist.

Baudime is one of my all time favorite. I think that the way that the saint gazes at you is uncanny and quite unsettling.

In the twelfth century onwards you see bust and heads that are shaped and made with gleaming material, gold or gilded copper, and decorated with precious stones to portray the saint as a dweller of paradise. In the later Middle Ages and the Early Renaissance, the beauty of the material is here substituted with the actual natural beauty of the women. Its beautiful in that paradox between the beauty of the girls and the lusciousness of their hair, and at the same time the idea that you can lift the top portion of the head and see the skull in it. The relationship between the horror of the relics and the beauty of the exterior, I think, is what fascinates me.

rusmeister
15-07-2012, 12:37
Of course no... Even russian language I don't know perfectly.

But what's problem with my english ? :)))

Hi Gena,
I think your English is fine for what we would call BICS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Interpersonal_Communicative_Skills

BICS is a level that allows you to order a pizza, find a restaurant or toilet, talk to people on a simple level.

But you want to engage on an academic level. The level of language needed for that has a name: CALP Cognitive academic language proficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's the level of English that you need, not only to communicate your own ideas, but to convince native speakers (the most demanding bunch) that your ideas may be better than theirs, to sell or convince them of something.

It's natural for us to discount someone who comes into an academic discussion with numerous mistakes in grammar and so forth. Yes, of course the person may be quite intelligent, but that's not the impression he gives by his command of the language.

In your case, your communicative skills are high, so I'd prescribe a focus on grammar and the rules and conventions of English. I'll bet you can probably talk on a conversational level reasonably well, given your vocabulary and style. You could probably handle an upper-intermediate level grammar; I recommend Round-Up by Virginia Evans. Six months of serious work, and people will stop making comments about language and pay attention to your ideas more.

I could charge 2,000 rubles/hr (or a 150 rubles for this post) but as a member of expat.ru, you get it for free!
(Besides, in the end, we are not enemies. You only think we are...) :)

shurale
15-07-2012, 13:49
Hi Gena,
I think your English is fine for what we would call BICS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Interpersonal_Communicative_Skills

BICS is a level that allows you to order a pizza, find a restaurant or toilet, talk to people on a simple level.

But you want to engage on an academic level. The level of language needed for that has a name: CALP Cognitive academic language proficiency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_academic_language_proficiency)

That's the level of English that you need, not only to communicate your own ideas, but to convince native speakers (the most demanding bunch) that your ideas may be better than theirs, to sell or convince them of something.

It's natural for us to discount someone who comes into an academic discussion with numerous mistakes in grammar and so forth. Yes, of course the person may be quite intelligent, but that's not the impression he gives by his command of the language.

In your case, your communicative skills are high, so I'd prescribe a focus on grammar and the rules and conventions of English. I'll bet you can probably talk on a conversational level reasonably well, given your vocabulary and style. You could probably handle an upper-intermediate level grammar; I recommend Round-Up by Virginia Evans. Six months of serious work, and people will stop making comments about language and pay attention to your ideas more.

I could charge 2,000 rubles/hr (or a 150 rubles for this post) but as a member of expat.ru, you get it for free!
(Besides, in the end, we are not enemies. You only think we are...) :)

Sort of shibboleth. Maybe...

Gilead then cut Ephraim off from the fords of the Jordan, and whenever Ephraimite fugitives said, 'Let me cross,' the men of Gilead would ask, 'Are you an Ephraimite?' If he said, 'No,' they then said, 'Very well, say "Shibboleth" (שבלת).' If anyone said, "Sibboleth" (סבלת), because he could not pronounce it, then they would seize him and kill him by the fords of the Jordan. Forty-two thousand Ephraimites fell on this occasion.
Judges 12:5-6, NJB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiboleth

peppermintpaddy
15-07-2012, 14:21
Back in the 70's in England,at the heighth of football hooliganism,Manchester City were at home to Leeds United,notorious troublemakers.Greater Manchester Police had word that Leeds fans were planning to invade the City end to cause trouble.
The police positioned themselves inside the ground ,next to the turnstile and fans upon entering had to say "chicken noodle soup"....anyone saying it in a Yorkshire accent was thrown out....shibboleth indeed.

By the way,I wonder what level of English I need to understand what the hell Rus is going on about?

Inola
15-07-2012, 14:43
I am not a native speaker... you know. And I never studied english language too.

Probably you should..


By the way what does it have to do with the subject of this thread ?

This was a hint for you that your patronizing posts expressed in your lame English look ridiculous at the very least.

rusmeister
15-07-2012, 14:52
Probably you should..



This was a hint for you that your patronizing posts expressed in your lame English look ridiculous at the very least.

I think the way I put it was a little more diplomatic, Inola.

No one wants to listen to good advice if it comes wrapped in insult. That's true about Gena wanting to listen to your advice, just as it's true about us not wanting to listen to what he considers good advice. It's just made worse if we don't know educated English (or Russian) but still want to criticize native speakers in their own language.

RichardB
15-07-2012, 15:13
It does not matter what -WE- believe, it matters to -THEM- that they believe.
That is what religion is all about it. If you believe you don't need any proof. And if you don't believe, all the proof in the world will not convince you. As simple as that.

This has to be the most sensible answer I have read on these forums.

Well done Benedikt.

Korotky Gennady
15-07-2012, 17:30
This was a hint for you that your patronizing posts expressed in your lame English look ridiculous at the very least. I don't feel that my english is too "lame" but I will be grateful to you if you correct my bad phrases as Robert did.

In fact my english isn't worse than yours. You studied english, I didn't...

rusmeister
15-07-2012, 18:18
I don't feel that my english is too "lame" but I will be grateful to you if you correct my bad phrases as Robert did.

In fact my english isn't worse than yours. You studied english, I didn't...

I don't think it would be polite or convenient to go around correcting you all the time (and what you'd really want would be a teaching explanation, such as: ",too" in positive sentences, and "not..either/neither" in negative sentences).
And I never studied english language too.
So here it should be:
... I never studied the English language, either.


Probably the most appropriate thing would be to post short texts - generally about one paragraph - and or ask specific questions in this subforum: http://www.expat.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=213

If you pm me on a specific question, I can answer it - I AM a professional career EFL teacher (not a fly-by-night "gastarbaiter" visiting student posing as a teacher). As long as it is not a dozen questions every day...
:)

yakspeare
15-07-2012, 18:53
I don't feel that my english is too "lame" but I will be grateful to you if you correct my bad phrases as Robert did.

In fact my english isn't worse than yours. You studied english, I didn't...

lol.

Inola and Korotky at ten paces. Each with a notepad and pen(since it's mightier than the sword.) I put my money on Inola.

yakspeare
15-07-2012, 19:15
I recall when I was in France as a child we went to the town called Rocomodor(sp). So the story goes, they had the bones of someone prominent in christian history there(i forget who). The place is quite like a fortress, built above the valley. while they had those bones, they were never defeated and their valley prospered, while others around were in turmoil. then one day some enemies snuck into the town and scattered the bones. after that they were defeated.

I recall Ivan grozny, in his attack on Kazan had, I believe, supposed shards of the cross that went before his army. So relics certainly have an interesting history.

Still, my view is more like this episode of blackadder-sadly the end of the clip which goes more into relics is missing:

blackadder archbisop curses - YouTube

Inola
16-07-2012, 10:46
I think the way I put it was a little more diplomatic, Inola.

No one wants to listen to good advice if it comes wrapped in insult. That's true about Gena wanting to listen to your advice, just as it's true about us not wanting to listen to what he considers good advice. It's just made worse if we don't know educated English (or Russian) but still want to criticize native speakers in their own language.

Thank you, Rus. I just lost my patience when Gennady called you fetishist and announced his noble destiny was to fight you...


I don't feel that my english is too "lame" but I will be grateful to you if you correct my bad phrases as Robert did.

In fact my english isn't worse than yours. You studied english, I didn't...

Gennady, sorry for my recent posts. When I'm called "little girl" I start behaving like one..
As for teaching you correct English, I think lots of teachers and native speakers present on the forums will be happy to oblige you.

PeteD
16-07-2012, 11:45
Probably the most appropriate thing would be to post short texts - generally about one paragraph - :)


WTF??

Rus, Are you OK?

;)

rusmeister
16-07-2012, 12:54
WTF??

Rus, Are you OK?

;)

:)
I am talking about the specific purpose of editing and correcting texts, including explaining exactly what the mistakes are. I don't know if you've ever done that, but it's quite a bit of work.
It takes less than a minute to read an average paragraph and add a little to think about what was said.
It takes at least twenty-thirty minutes to edit and correct a similar-length text.

Nice try, though! :)

I'll admit that more difficult and intelligent texts may take twice as long (or more) to think about. But they almost never take as long as editing does.

For example,


Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about.
Those three sentences take eight-ten seconds to read. It probably takes from twenty to forty-five seconds for a person who has never encountered the idea to grasp it. Of course, many people never try to grasp it, simply do not understand, and from ignorance say that it is stupid. To anyone who gets it, it is breath-taking explanation of something (here, tradition) we've never thought about that way before.

Ghostly Presence
16-07-2012, 14:12
:)
Those three sentences take eight-ten seconds to read. It probably takes from twenty to forty-five seconds for a person who has never encountered the idea to grasp it. Of course, many people never try to grasp it, simply do not understand, and from ignorance say that it is stupid. To anyone who gets it, it is breath-taking explanation of something (here, tradition) we've never thought about that way before.

Once again, I will repeat myself by saying that you can not make people accept certain traditions and rites simply by explaining the logic behind them. This is especially true in matters of faith. A baptist experiences his relationship with the supernatural differently from a member of ROC while an atheist does not experience it at all. Doesn't faith itself represent an act of divine intervention or a divine gift? Nothing about faith can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, therefore no explanation will ever suffice. Perhaps it was designed to be that way - faith can be based only on...faith!

If you, Rusmeister were right, then converting people into your religion would be easy - you would just have to educate them in the tenets of your creed and the job would be done, but in reality it is not that simple. There will always be people who will refuse to pray to or venerate bones and chairs, no matter how much time you spend on explaining to them why this might be a great idea.

Inola
16-07-2012, 14:38
. There will always be people who will refuse to pray to or venerate bones and chairs, no matter how much time you spend on explaining to them why this might be a great idea.

So, to you people who do not "pray to or venerate bones and chairs" have no faith? Or if one thinks of oneself as a believer, one has to "pray to or venerate bones and chairs" by default?

And simply "having faith" is not enough imho, it's important (and not that easy) to learn. Believers may happen to have enquiring minds looking for answers and don't necessarily rely on bones and chairs to get them...

rusmeister
16-07-2012, 14:47
Once again, I will repeat myself by saying that you can not make people accept certain traditions and rites simply by explaining the logic behind them. This is especially true in matters of faith. A baptist experiences his relationship with the supernatural differently from a member of ROC while an atheist does not experience it at all.

I agree, and I've always known this. I've said it on a number of occasions before, but we evidently hadn't interacted enough for you to pick up on that.
I do not expect that everyone, upon reading and understanding my words, will magically come to faith. I DO think that anyone who is intelligently honest must stop saying that faith cannot be reasonable or compatible with reason. They are still free to think it wrong, of course, as I think other forms of faith and lack of faith to be ultimately wrong, though containing a great deal of truth.


Doesn't faith itself represent an act of divine intervention or a divine gift? Nothing about faith can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, therefore no explanation will ever suffice. Perhaps it was designed to be that way - faith can be based only on...faith!
True until your last sentence. Nothing is based on itself. People who accept faith do so for the same general reasons that unbelievers do not accept it - because the amalgam of their life experience has convinced them that their position is true, or right, or as true as it is going to get.

As to the "gift" aspect, this is where we'd have to sail into theology and you'd have to read more in-depth what serious thinkers of faith have to say about it and how the religion they think true (I'll stick to Christianity, ultimately Orthodox Christianity) reconciles their experience and its teachings on what faith is (and everything else). I refer you to Alexander Men' as absolutely, to my mind, the best person in modern times to speak to questions like that from the Orthodox perspective.
http://www.alexandermen.com/Main_Page
Alexander Men - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The very best things to get an intro to:
http://www.alexandermen.com/Why_Be_a_Christian%3F (an interview, easy and quick to read)
http://www.alexandermen.com/Christianity One of his greatest addresses

A person who is familiar with this stuff can certainly continue to object to faith, but their objections will begin to acquire genuine sophistication that comes from really knowing what those guys are saying, what we believe and why, and will challenge believers more, precisely because their objections cease to be of the caveman variety that sees only fundamentalism, conspiracies and greed, and blind belief in Christian faith.


If you, Rusmeister were right, then converting people into your religion would be easy - you would just have to educate them in the tenets of your creed and the job would be done, but in reality it is not that simple. There will always be people who will refuse to pray to or venerate bones and chairs, no matter how much time you spend on explaining to them why this might be a great idea.

No, I don't think it's easy at all. I recognize the considerable barriers - there are plenty of people who don't need God because life is going just fine for them. I think most of us tend to really get that we DO need God when we really discover that we are not self-sufficient - that in the face of ultimate tragedy and despair materialism offers nothing at all, except "Tough luck, kiddo". There are falsehoods and misunderstandings, thousands of them, that need to be revealed - though the flip side of that coin is, when you DO see that the media, the history we were taught in school, etc is full of falsehood, it tends to backlash, and such people become all the more fervent as believers - they see that their unbelief was based on lies. And such conversions are not unreasonable, any more than a former fundamentalist who turns atheist is - because they care about the truth; they think that the question of truth is vitally important. They are right about that.

A refusal to do a thing does not establish whether it is right or not to refuse to do it. If the people who refuse to venerate bones are wrong, then there is nothing praiseworthy in their refusal. If there IS such a thing as holiness, if it CAN manifest itself in material things, then, as we value goodness, we ought to venerate those things. But if we ignore those questions, if we merely assume an answer without considering contrary thought, then we cannot pride ourselves on having answered them intelligently.

Ghostly Presence
16-07-2012, 14:52
So, to you people who do not "pray to or venerate bones and chairs" have no faith? Or if one thinks of oneself as a believer, one has to "pray to or venerate bones and chairs" by default?

No - my idea is exactly the opposite - one can be a devout Christian and yet refuse to accept icons, chairs and mummified body parts as channels of the Holy Spirit.

Inola
16-07-2012, 14:58
No - my idea is exactly the opposite - one can be a devout Christian and yet refuse to accept icons, chairs and mummified body parts as channels of the Holy Spirit.

OK, glad we agree at least on that :) Still I wouldn't call people who venerate relics "fetishists", because they aren't...

Ghostly Presence
16-07-2012, 15:21
OK, glad we agree at least on that :) Still I wouldn't call people who venerate relics "fetishists", because they aren't...

I did not call them fetishists, although I have to say that similarities between these two phenomena are obvious.

Generally speaking, I couldn't care less what people want to pray to - it is their business and it does not concern me. But I do want to have the right to laugh at it if I find it funny with no fear of prosecution for "religious intolerence". I do want to have the right to see art exhibitions where religion might be portrayed not in the most favorable light. In other words, I want to live in a society where a certain set of religious beliefs is not imposed on the entire society and the freedom of speech and artistic expression are held higher then the narrow corporate interests of a certain religious organization with good connections in the government.

Inola
16-07-2012, 15:37
I want to live in a society where a certain set of religious beliefs is not imposed on the entire society and the freedom of speech and artistic expression are held higher then the narrow corporate interests of a certain religious organization with good connections in the government.

Well, if it weren't for these forums, I would never have learnt about that chair.. So, to my mind saying that any particular religious beliefs in Russia are imposed on the entire society is a bit far-fetched.. I don't at all feel concerned by top ROC clergymen and the top politicians showy-offy behaviour..

As to the religious censorship of the artistic expression - there is no such thing in Russia.. Outraged reaction - yes, but this is something you would expect from them, no?

Ghostly Presence
16-07-2012, 15:42
Well, if it weren't for these forums, I would never have learnt about that chair.. So, to my mind saying that any particular religious beliefs in Russia are imposed on the entire society is a bit far-fetched.. I don't at all feel concerned by top ROC clergymen and the top politicians showy-offy behaviour..

As to the religious censorship of the artistic expression - there is no such thing in Russia.. Outraged reaction - yes, but this is something you would expect from them, no?

I wish there were no religious cencorship in Russia! Read this:

http://lenta.ru/lib/14181905/

This is not the only incident, unfortunately.....

Inola
16-07-2012, 16:01
I wish there were no religious cencorship in Russia! Read this:

http://lenta.ru/lib/14181905/

This is not the only incident, unfortunately.....

Under censoreship I meant "prevention".. as in not letting express/expose at all.. You can express/expose in Russia, but be ready to get sacked for it :D

A friend of mine is a judge in a criminal court - I've heard lots of stories about the "oh so convenient for procesuting of unworthy elements" art. 282 of the Criminal code... But still it's all about the power and interests of the ROC and the politicians.. Not about the religion itself being imposed. I'll change my mind when we are all forced to go to the church and pray before chairs.

Ghostly Presence
16-07-2012, 16:17
I'll change my mind when we are all forced to go to the church and pray before chairs.

If that moment ever comes, I am afraid it will be already too late to change anything, including your mind....

Inola
16-07-2012, 17:09
If that moment ever comes, I am afraid it will be already too late to change anything, including your mind....

Nope, never too late.. The Russian people are really patient as it comes to suffering from governmental rule, but if we stand up - we show them "Kuzka's mother" :D

On a serious note, I honestly think that Russia will never become a mono-religious country: people of different beliefs have always cohabited, churches and mosques have been built close to each other, what ever grounds for disagreement there may be between people (nationalistic as I see them) they usually are not based on religion.

rusmeister
16-07-2012, 17:51
I did not call them fetishists, although I have to say that similarities between these two phenomena are obvious.

Generally speaking, I couldn't care less what people want to pray to - it is their business and it does not concern me. But I do want to have the right to laugh at it if I find it funny with no fear of prosecution for "religious intolerence". I do want to have the right to see art exhibitions where religion might be portrayed not in the most favorable light. In other words, I want to live in a society where a certain set of religious beliefs is not imposed on the entire society and the freedom of speech and artistic expression are held higher then the narrow corporate interests of a certain religious organization with good connections in the government.

GP, you continue one line as if I had never said anything at all, as if not one word had been considered as possibly true.

What fear exactly do you have of being persecuted for religious intolerance? Do you dream of walking up to the Patriarch and spit on him, and then wake in a cold sweat at fear of having your dream publicized and being carted off to jail? The people who you can cite who could POSSIBLY said to have been "persecuted" were guilty of gross stupidity and a deliberate desire to be disrespectful to others - which, it seems to me, is the "right" you are crying for. I do NOT grant you, or anyone, a right to simply be rude and disrespectful, a right to spit on things that a huge number of people really DO find sacred.

For all I care, you COULD keep an image of the Patriarch at home and spit on it every morning and evening in an irreligious ecstasy - no one is going to hunt you down. But if you want a right to pee on my faith publicly, to insult it and throw crap at it in the manner that the silly women in PR did, then I have no problem with a hooliganism charge against you, and I'd recommend the same 6-month community service sentence on weekends with an Orthodox charity that I recommended for them. If that's what you want,get lost. My beliefs are NOT being imposed on you and it is silly that you equate a demand for a modicum of respect with "imposing beliefs".

You might as well fight for my right to take photos of your mother and show anyone screwing her and talk about my right of artistic expression being more important than your narrow private objections just because she happens to be related to you. It is the issue of wanting to insult and openly something that is sacred to others, and that is a damn-fool thing to want to have a right to do.

I think Islam wrong. But I have no desire to defend anyone's "right" to insult it. We have no "right" to childish behavior (and bad children at that). You have a responsibility to be civil to others and if you think them wrong, talk about why they are wrong. But don't claim "rights" to burst into their territory and disrupt their services, or to publicly dip their sacred symbols in urine, or other manner of babyish behavior.

In return you will find that we will leave what you hold sacred alone, and defend you from others trying to profane it. If you don't hold your mother sacred, then there is something wrong with you - our mothers are those who brought us into this world, and wiped our butts when we were incapable of doing so. Mothers are sacred, and so is my faith. So is the Muslim's to him.

Ghostly Presence
16-07-2012, 23:56
You might as well fight for my right to take photos of your mother and show anyone screwing her and talk about my right of artistic expression being more important than your narrow private objections just because she happens to be related to you. It is the issue of wanting to insult and openly something that is sacred to others, and that is a damn-fool thing to want to have a right to do...

I think Islam wrong..

Now that's a true man of God speaking! How did my poor mother get involved in this discussion?! Rus, I don't know what chairs you have been praying to, but you have definitely gone off your rocker...

And of course Islam is wrong and all the millions of its followers. Only you are right. Congrats!

rusmeister
17-07-2012, 06:34
Now that's a true man of God speaking! How did my poor mother get involved in this discussion?! Rus, I don't know what chairs you have been praying to, but you have definitely gone off your rocker...

And of course Islam is wrong and all the millions of its followers. Only you are right. Congrats!

GP, I was speaking English. If you are a normal person, you hold your mother sacred. That is a basis on which you can understand how other people feel who hold something sacred that you do not. Are you capable of understanding that?

jask
17-07-2012, 08:54
i remind myself everyday how great my chair is and thank it for enduring my bony butt and my smelly farts, i thank it for silently supporting my back and uncomplainingly adjusting its height to my needs...

Ghostly Presence
17-07-2012, 09:32
i remind myself everyday how great my chair is and thank it for enduring my bony butt and my smelly farts, i thank it for silently supporting my back and uncomplainingly adjusting its height to my needs...

Be careful or you might start a new religion! :) Are sure you haven't got followers already? :)

jask
17-07-2012, 16:13
Be careful or you might start a new religion! :) Are sure you haven't got followers already? :)

my chair is most welcoming... it does not discriminate... you can sit on it if you like... you can kiss it if you wish...