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shurale
23-06-2012, 19:36
what do we need them for?

Inola
23-06-2012, 19:40
Sorry, is this a rhetoric question?

shurale
23-06-2012, 19:47
a loaded question

Babygirl
23-06-2012, 19:55
Did you hear about the two little boys who found themselves in a modern art gallery by mistake?-*Quick,* said one, *Run ! Before they say we did it!*

rusmeister
23-06-2012, 22:21
A loaded question can still have a good straight answer.


All men who are interested in public affairs, but especially
those who desire to influence such affairs, must concern themselves
with two intellectual activities: History, without which one cannot
understand mankind or one's own times and people; Literature, which is
the expression of conscious and reasoning mankind.
Hilaire Belloc

Music, art and literature can be good or bad, of high quality or low, and we should desire that which improves us, lifts us up, helps us to better understand and experience the human condition. So in literature, for example, Shakespeare, Dickens and Chesterton do so, Stephen King and Harlequin romances don't, appealing to the lowest common denominator as they do. The fact that bad stuff doesn't last over generations and centuries is a clue to what is good, which is why we speak of classics.

peppermintpaddy
24-06-2012, 01:34
Art is the space where Man meets God......(not Religion rus)

Russian Lad
24-06-2012, 02:05
Art, music, books have various applications. Just some of them off the bat:
1) Our passtime and method of self-expression for some of us
2) Control over us by the state and/or government agencies/even corporate structures - akin to religion, which is also guided by a book - throw out the Bible from the picture and Christianity will be left without its foundation:))
3) Money-saving and -making tool, especially when it comes to paintings, a toy for the rich
4) Educational purposes, which can be abused when #2 kicks in, and it usually does.
5) Instruments of national identity forming what is called "culture" in general

MashaSashina
24-06-2012, 02:19
what do we need them for?
for being the food for our souls?

rusmeister
24-06-2012, 08:40
Art is the space where Man meets God......(not Religion rus)

Well, since I've repeatedly said that I don't care for religion as such, but for the truth, I don't see how that has any relation to me, unless you are still trying to fit me into a template I just don't fit into. I am very interested in Man meeting God - and so is organized religion, generally speaking, but since the object of religion is usually God, not itself, the aside is irrelevant.

rusmeister
24-06-2012, 08:47
for being the food for our souls?

Then we want an idea of what kind of "body" our souls will grow into, and what is the nature of the "food". Just as we don't want an obese body that loses human form, as in the film "Wall-E", so we don't want a soul that becomes inhuman, such as Chikatilo, or Stalin, or a man who loves fifty women and leaves half of them pregnant, or whatever. It should produce fathers and mothers who are good, citizens who are intelligent, men who keep their word and are honorable. It should guide us toward that and away from... what we have today (which says how much good literature and art we have that large numbers of people are exposed to in our time - not much.

peppermintpaddy
24-06-2012, 12:55
Well, since I've repeatedly said that I don't care for religion as such, but for the truth, I don't see how that has any relation to me, unless you are still trying to fit me into a template I just don't fit into. I am very interested in Man meeting God - and so is organized religion, generally speaking, but since the object of religion is usually God, not itself, the aside is irrelevant.

For someone who doesn't care for religion as such(why no capital R?)...you sure do spend a helluva lotta time defending your particular brand of Religion.
On the contrary,Religion is not interested in Man meeting God,Religion exists to intercede between them.
I believe the object of Religion to be Religion itself.

Art happens. No hovel is safe from it, no prince can depend on it, the vastest intelligence cannot bring it about. James A. M. Whistler

penka
24-06-2012, 12:59
what do we need them for?

Are you Plato's staunch supporter?:-))

rusmeister
24-06-2012, 15:23
For someone who doesn't care for religion as such(why no capital R?)...you sure do spend a helluva lotta time defending your particular brand of Religion.
You spend a helluva lot of time attacking it.



On the contrary,Religion is not interested in Man meeting God,Religion exists to intercede between them.
"Religion", as an abstract concept, is not "interested" in anything. ReligionS generally insist that they DO strive for Man meeting God, whatever your assertions to the contrary, which look a lot like someone insisting that the scientific community embraces seven-day Creationism, someting a majority of scientists would hotly deny.


I believe the object of Religion to be Religion itself.
OK. But that proves nothing. What you believe is flatly contradicted by what all major world religions say about themselves. We have to ask then, who is more likely to know what object the people practicing religion are aiming for: the people who practice it, or their armchair critics?


Art happens. No hovel is safe from it, no prince can depend on it, the vastest intelligence cannot bring it about. James A. M. Whistler


Whistler was wrong on a number if things, and while this aphorism sounds witty, it is also wrong. Art, in any sense of something that communicates beauty and truth, does not do so randomly, but by design. To say it "just happens" is an attempt to pose an unintelligent idea in an intelligent manner. It makes equal sense (that is to say, none) to say that "music happens" or "literature happens".
For good criticism on Whistler, try GK Chesterton. http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/heretics/ch17.html

shurale
24-06-2012, 16:06
Then we want an idea of what kind of "body" our souls will grow into, and what is the nature of the "food". Just as we don't want an obese body that loses human form, as in the film "Wall-E", so we don't want a soul that becomes inhuman, such as Chikatilo, or Stalin, or a man who loves fifty women and leaves half of them pregnant, or whatever. It should produce fathers and mothers who are good, citizens who are intelligent, men who keep their word and are honorable. It should guide us toward that and away from... what we have today (which says how much good literature and art we have that large numbers of people are exposed to in our time - not much.

...men who keep their word and are honorable.
Not like King Saul who didnt keep his word and killed only Amalek men, women and children and then failed to kill the livestock of Amalek.
Rus, do you think they killed pregnant women, too?
==================
What is the best translation of Сейте разумное, доброе, вечное?

Sow that which is reasonable, good and everlasting?

rusmeister
24-06-2012, 17:29
...men who keep their word and are honorable.
Not like King Saul who didnt keep his word and killed only Amalek men, women and children and then failed to kill the livestock of Amalek.
Rus, do you think they killed pregnant women, too?

Maybe they did. So what? Are you shocked at discovering wickedness in the ancient world? Or do you think that God must be wicked because you don't understand what you read and secretly think that this life is all there is? (If it IS, then death WOULD be the ultimate tragedy, and any killing wickedness - only, uh, without transcendent meaning, nothing would mean anything anyway. Existence, life and death, all meaningless, because of trying to hold that there is nothing but this life.)

But if it is NOT all there is, and death IS a gateway to eternity, then two soldiers who shot each other could conceivably laugh together on the other side, and so could an Israelite and the people he'd been told to kill.

You've already imposed your own hermeneutic on a text without asking what was the hermeneutic of the people who wrote it, or who read it today and believe. There is extensive and enormous thought on the text that so shocks you - my own unloaded question is whether you are honest enough to be willing to examine it, or dishonest enough to want to assert what you think minus that knowledge?

If you want to judge literature or history, you need a lot of knowledge, and even then you might go wrong in your interpretations, especially on your own.

peppermintpaddy
24-06-2012, 17:39
You spend a helluva lot of time attacking it.

It needs attacking,especially the Stone age death cult

"Religion", as an abstract concept, is not "interested" in anything. ReligionS generally insist that they DO strive for Man meeting God, whatever your assertions to the contrary, which look a lot like someone insisting that the scientific community embraces seven-day Creationism, someting a majority of scientists would hotly deny.
The scientific community laughs at Religion...why bring them into it?
OK. But that proves nothing. What you believe is flatly contradicted by what all major world religions say about themselves. We have to ask then, who is more likely to know what object the people practicing religion are aiming for: the people who practice it, or their armchair critics?

They would say that ...wouldn't they.What do you expect them to say?"We're a bunch of frauds"

Whistler was wrong on a number if things, and while this aphorism sounds witty, it is also wrong. Art, in any sense of something that communicates beauty and truth, does not do so randomly, but by design. To say it "just happens" is an attempt to pose an unintelligent idea in an intelligent manner. It makes equal sense (that is to say, none) to say that "music happens" or "literature happens".
For good criticism on Whistler, try GK Chesterton. http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/heretics/ch17.html

You know more about Art than Whistler? Perhaps Art ,literature and Music does just happen......Samuel Taylor Coleridge awoke having dreamt "in xanadu did Kublai Khan ..." Paul McCartney awoke with the tune of Yesterday in his head,having dreamt it also.And surely every Artist has a dream or image of their work before committing it to canvas....

Russian Lad
24-06-2012, 18:04
Is it another religion thread? Sh[t, I am tired of this crazy zealot. Cannot he practice his sh[tty religion in his bathroom or in his toilet without bringing it up here all the time? Honestly, if this religious onslaught is not stopped somehow, I am going to publish soon a post about virtues of masturbation or anal sex and will describe in detail how I do it and why it is the Truth and why you should all follow my path...

peppermintpaddy
24-06-2012, 18:48
Is it another religion thread? Sh[t, I am tired of this crazy zealot. Cannot he practice his sh[tty religion in his bathroom or in his toilet without bringing it up here all the time? Honestly, if this religious onslaught is not stopped somehow, I am going to publish soon a post about virtues of masturbation or anal sex and will describe in detail how I do it and why it is the Truth and why you should all follow my path...

Good idea RL.....that sounds a lot more interesting

Babygirl
24-06-2012, 19:02
Anal sex is pretty hot RL.

It is not the Truth tho, unless you are gay.

But your describing it in detail wud be pretty entertaining for sure :D

I thought the thread was about something Higher and Deeper tho :D :rofl:

rusmeister
24-06-2012, 19:13
You know more about Art than Whistler? Perhaps Art ,literature and Music does just happen......Samuel Taylor Coleridge awoke having dreamt "in xanadu did Kublai Khan ..." Paul McCartney awoke with the tune of Yesterday in his head,having dreamt it also.And surely every Artist has a dream or image of their work before committing it to canvas....
I know that an artist can be philosophically wrong. Just because he practices art does not mean that he is right when he makes a philosophical statement about the nature of art; something that, if his worldview is wrong, his assessment will be wrong.

A person having a dream or image is proof that such things do NOT "just" happen. We may have dreams or visions, and to say they "just" happen is to say only that you do not know how they happen. If there is a mystical cause, and not merely a physical one, then it nevertheless is not "ex nihilo". We might not know the cause, but we can be excused for thinking that there must be one in this world where everything has a cause. To say a thing "just happens" is to deny that there is a cause.

Believers are free to admit the possibility that an extra-natural source provides that inspiration. An unbeliever must (frantically, imo) deny it - the slightest hint of any supernatural ontology destroys materialism. Hence, the claim of ignorance that denies ANY cause - that a thing "just" happens.

rusmeister
24-06-2012, 19:18
Is it another religion thread? Sh[t, I am tired of this crazy zealot. Cannot he practice his sh[tty religion in his bathroom or in his toilet without bringing it up here all the time? Honestly, if this religious onslaught is not stopped somehow, I am going to publish soon a post about virtues of masturbation or anal sex and will describe in detail how I do it and why it is the Truth and why you should all follow my path...
I beg your pardon? Who is talking about religion? Not one Bible passage, quote from a Church father, or teaching of the Orthodox Church here, RL.

Perhaps others are tired of your unreasonable hatred of worldviews that admit the probability that existence is not limited to this material plane. I need preach no sermons, quote no Bible passages, and say nothing about Christ to talk about things that any reasonable person can consider whether they are religious or not. And do it much more politely than you are doing.

At least I really AM counter-cultural. As soon as you go into toilet and bedroom language, you are going with the flow, something that dead things can do. Only a living thing can go against it.

Russian Lad
25-06-2012, 02:26
It is not that easy, my Christian apologist.
I am not denying the existence of the forces we don't yet know and possibly even a supernatural character of these forces, but the explanation that your religion provides was suitable for Jewish shepherds centuries ago, it is not viable or credible anymore. Jump off that Christian religious stool and you will see the beauty and enigma of life without a dogmatic blindfold on your face.


It is not the Truth tho, unless you are gay.

Let me remind you that not only gay males have an arse one can have sex with... Most women also have one... So, it is not necessary to be gay to partake of this Truth.

shurale
25-06-2012, 02:53
Maybe they did. So what? Are you shocked at discovering wickedness in the ancient world? Or do you think that God must be wicked because you don't understand what you read and secretly think that this life is all there is? (If it IS, then death WOULD be the ultimate tragedy, and any killing wickedness - only, uh, without transcendent meaning, nothing would mean anything anyway. Existence, life and death, all meaningless, because of trying to hold that there is nothing but this life.)

But if it is NOT all there is, and death IS a gateway to eternity, then two soldiers who shot each other could conceivably laugh together on the other side, and so could an Israelite and the people he'd been told to kill.

You've already imposed your own hermeneutic on a text without asking what was the hermeneutic of the people who wrote it, or who read it today and believe. There is extensive and enormous thought on the text that so shocks you - my own unloaded question is whether you are honest enough to be willing to examine it, or dishonest enough to want to assert what you think minus that knowledge?

If you want to judge literature or history, you need a lot of knowledge, and even then you might go wrong in your interpretations, especially on your own.

Rus, so many words.... Are you able to kill a baby?
You could laugh with that baby on the other side.

Russian Lad
25-06-2012, 03:08
Rus, so many words.... Are you able to kill a baby?
You could laugh with that baby on the other side.

That's the danger of such religions as Christianity and Islam, by the way, and one of the reasons I think they should be banned or at least swept away into the kitchens, bathrooms and toilets of private houses, away from the public eye - the price of this life can be diminished to the value of one copeck by their apologists, because hey, there is always afterlife where you get your wings to flap, the person you murdered to have a hearty laugh with or your virgins to f]ck for all the eternity to come.

peppermintpaddy
25-06-2012, 04:03
It is not that easy, my Christian apologist.
I am not denying the existence of the forces we don't yet know and possibly even a supernatural character of these forces, but the explanation that your religion provides was suitable for Jewish shepherds centuries ago, it is not viable or credible anymore. Jump off that Christian religious stool and you will see the beauty and enigma of life without a dogmatic blindfold on your face

Thats very good RL....POETIC EVEN.

rusmeister
25-06-2012, 07:04
That's the danger of such religions as Christianity and Islam, by the way, and one of the reasons I think they should be banned or at least swept away into the kitchens, bathrooms and toilets of private houses, away from the public eye - the price of this life can be diminished to the value of one copeck by their apologists, because hey, there is always afterlife where you get your wings to flap, the person you murdered to have a hearty laugh with or your virgins to f]ck for all the eternity to come.

Frankly, I think you place an absolute zero value on past lives, those men, women and children mean absolutely nothing to you, which even a kopeck would beat, but are a mere point on which to attack something you don't even try to understand, and that IS how the modern atheist regimes, especially your own Soviet Union valued life in the gulags. And that's the danger of materialism, never mind its philosophical nihilism.

rusmeister
25-06-2012, 07:10
It is not that easy, my Christian apologist.
I am not denying the existence of the forces we don't yet know and possibly even a supernatural character of these forces, but the explanation that your religion provides was suitable for Jewish shepherds centuries ago, it is not viable or credible anymore. Jump off that Christian religious stool and you will see the beauty and enigma of life without a dogmatic blindfold on your face.

My dear RL, you have no conception of the explanation actually provided. You hold some fuzzy ideas you get from Jerry Falwell or some whackoes in black shirts and think you have all the explanation you need. That is to know nothing at all about our explanations. When you can quote, for example, Alexandr Men' and St John Kronstadt at me, then I'll think you have the beginnings of our real explanations. Show me you really know what Men' has to say and I'll take you more seriously.

rusmeister
25-06-2012, 07:15
You know more about Art than Whistler? Perhaps Art ,literature and Music does just happen......Samuel Taylor Coleridge awoke having dreamt "in xanadu did Kublai Khan ..." Paul McCartney awoke with the tune of Yesterday in his head,having dreamt it also.And surely every Artist has a dream or image of their work before committing it to canvas....

Just noting in addition that I offered real art criticism of someone you admire enough to quote, and don't see that you've troubled to read it. Let's not pretend to know about literature and art, let's show that we actually know something, above all, how to respond to our critics.

http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/heretics/ch17.html

Russian Lad
25-06-2012, 07:21
Alexandr Men' and St John Kronstadt at me

You refer to them all the time, ad nauseam, so I am getting the impression they are like two authors out of about five you have read in your entire life.
As to your other resposnses, they are incoherent rubbish full of gestalts not even worth commenting on. You even bring up the Soviet Union in your argument and repeatedly tell me I am an atheist whereas I am not a communist and I am an agnostic. Absence of faith in your moth-eaten Christian dogmas equals to materialism to you. What an utter nonsense. I repeat, get a life.

rusmeister
25-06-2012, 07:27
...men who keep their word and are honorable.
Not like King Saul who didnt keep his word and killed only Amalek men, women and children and then failed to kill the livestock of Amalek.
Rus, do you think they killed pregnant women, too?

This is the post that took everything OT. I didn't start talk about religion here. Shurale did, as an attack. There IS a defense

http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/scandal_and_the_old_testament_part_1

But odds are, no one will listen to it. The test of the intellectual honesty of a person is whether they will honestly consider objections to their position and offer responses that fairly address them.

I offered a response on Whistler, I offer a response on the complaint on Old Testament violence. Only no one bothers to examine the responses. The ones that DO - now they are interesting, because they do take on challenges and are ready to concede valid points, even if they don't come to agreement, at least they can say, "I understand." and actually understand.

I certainly concede that killing is a terrible thing, and offer considerations that might mitigate the simple verdict given before the trial which has not taken place. Let's see who picks up the gauntlets...

Babygirl
25-06-2012, 11:40
Let me remind you that not only gay males have an arse one can have sex with... Most women also have one...

No need to remind me RL :D

I remember the feeling quite well :D

And like I said I find it extremely hot if done properly )

rusmeister
25-06-2012, 14:49
You refer to them all the time, ad nauseam, so I am getting the impression they are like two authors out of about five you have read in your entire life.
As to your other resposnses, they are incoherent rubbish full of gestalts not even worth commenting on. You even bring up the Soviet Union in your argument and repeatedly tell me I am an atheist whereas I am not a communist and I am an agnostic. Absence of faith in your moth-eaten Christian dogmas equals to materialism to you. What an utter nonsense. I repeat, get a life.

"Nonsense" is uncountable, RL. You can't have "a" nonsense. Just nonsense. (As long as you feel free to insult me I'll feel free to correct your English.)

For the rest, rude insults is the refuge of the person who cannot and will not answer the challenges. Insult is all you have.

If I mistook your agnosticism for atheism, I apologize. I do see a distinction, but the deliberate hostility toward faith makes for little practical difference.
Dogmas cannot be moth-eaten, the base implication being that they are old. But the response to old dogmas is simple To paraphrase Lewis:

...let us strip it of the illegitimate emotional power it derives from the word 'moth eaten' with its suggestion of old and rotting clothes. If clothes hang too long unattended moths do eat them. To infer thence that whatever stands long must be unwholesome is to be the victim of metaphor. Space does not rot because it has preserved its three dimensions from the beginning. The square on the hypotenuse has not gone moldy by continuing to equal the sum of the squares on the other two sides. Love is not dishonored by constancy, and when we wash our hands we are seeking stagnation and "putting the clock back," artificially restoring our hands to the status quo in which they began the day and resisting the natural trend of events which would increase their dirtiness steadily from our birth to our death. For the emotive term 'moth-eaten' let us substitute the descriptive term 'permanent.' Does a permanent moral standard preclude progress? On the contrary, except on the supposition of a changeless standard, progress is impossible. If good is a fixed point, it is at least possible that we should get nearer and nearer to it; but if the terminus is as mobile as the train, how can the train progress towards it? Our ideas of the good may change, but they cannot change either for the better or the worse if there is no absolute and immutable good to which they can recede. We can go on getting a sum more and more nearly right only if the one perfectly right is old enough to be "moth-eaten".
(Adapted from "The Poison of Subjectivism" by CS Lewis)


Of course, this text might be incomprehensible, incoherent rubbish... to a five-year old. But it is entirely accessible to any intelligent, educated adult who can read more than comic books.

None of that is meant as hostility towards you. Just trying to respond to an approach that seems unwilling to be reasonable.

Russian Lad
25-06-2012, 17:40
"Nonsense" is uncountable, RL. You can't have "a" nonsense. Just nonsense. (As long as you feel free to insult me I'll feel free to correct your English.)

Ok, it is better without an article, I agree, there are 31700 exact matches in Google for the phrase "What an utter nonsense" though.
As to my hostility to Christianity, there will be none of it whatsoever if you boys and girls practice it in your bedrooms without bringing it to the public eye and trying to impose it on the society. And yes, if your Church as a CJSC stops sucking the state funds and begins paying taxes. Play your games as much as you wish, but play it by OUR SECULAR RULES AND LEGISLATIONS! Otherwise you get hostility, and believe me, I am just getting started...

Не социальным паразитам говорить о совести. - YouTube

rusmeister
25-06-2012, 22:39
Ok, it is better without an article, I agree, there are 31700 exact matches in Google for the phrase "What an utter nonsense" though.
As to my hostility to Christianity, there will be none of it whatsoever if you boys and girls practice it in your bedrooms without bringing it to the public eye and trying to impose it on the society. And yes, if your Church as a CJSC stops sucking the state funds and begins paying taxes. Play your games as much as you wish, but play it by OUR SECULAR RULES AND LEGISLATIONS! Otherwise you get hostility, and believe me, I am just getting started...

Не социальным паразитам говорить о совести. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7DWoqkwK4M&feature=related)

Sorry, dude - what you are saying is that you want to exclude our worldview from the public square while admitting your own. No deal. Nor would you agree to a similar proposal on my behalf to exclude your worldview from the public square.

A religion is NOT "a thing one practices in one's bedroom". It is a worldview, the lens through which the world is understood.

Russian Lad
26-06-2012, 16:56
Sorry, dude - what you are saying is that you want to exclude our worldview from the public square while admitting your own. No deal. Nor would you agree to a similar proposal on my behalf to exclude your worldview from the public square.

That's where your deep delusion lies. Sorry, mate, but it is written in the Constitution that the church is separated from the state and that Russia is a secular society. SE-CU-LAR. Got it? Change the Constitution first, then you will have the right to the public space. Till then, your closet and the church buildings are your abode. De-facto, though, you have access to almost all the public space you want, you even have your own TV channel. I will be hostile to your religion till you are back to your religious buildings and your bathrooms and kitchens, where you truly belong.

rusmeister
26-06-2012, 17:15
Remove user from ignore listRussian Lad
This message is hidden because Russian Lad is on your ignore list.

Making two people currently on it. It's a last resort.

Russian Lad
26-06-2012, 17:25
Remove user from ignore listRussian Lad
This message is hidden because Russian Lad is on your ignore list.

Making two people currently on it. It's a last resort.

The real truth hurts that much? :) There-there.

rusmeister
26-06-2012, 19:11
Nope, sorry, RL. I've already forgiven you twice and taken you back off that list twice, to give any reasonable person lurking there a chance. (I'll forgive you seventy times seven, but it's useless if you think there's nothing to forgive.

The odds of your posting a thoughtful and considerate response to a quote are about 100 to one at this point, so I think I'll leave you on ignore for a while. A genuinely thoughtful and considerate post that seriously considered anything I or my quotes had to say WOULD put me in a more difficult position - but it seems that there is small chance of that.

I'm still open to discussing literature and literary criticism (or the art criticism of Whistler that I posted that no one has responded to yet - to REALLY talk about art).

Ibanez
26-06-2012, 22:40
Is it another religion thread? Sh[t, I am tired of this crazy zealot. Cannot he practice his sh[tty religion in his bathroom or in his toilet without bringing it up here all the time? Honestly, if this religious onslaught is not stopped somehow, I am going to publish soon a post about virtues of masturbation or anal sex and will describe in detail how I do it and why it is the Truth and why you should all follow my path...

What will you call the new religion??

Russian Lad
27-06-2012, 01:31
What will you call the new religion??

Am I suggesting we create a new religion?:) The present one is doing ok, the sheep are kept in good balance, but the dogs that do the job bark too much recently, forgetting their place in the hierarchy - all I want is the dogs to bark at the sheep only, and it is desirable I don't see or hear them. If you understand what I mean.:) Besides, the dog are stealing the meat that really is not out there to feed them, it also should be stopped.