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Guest
08-10-2007, 09:43
Sorry, don't know where to post this!

Must we say:

Discuss a project
or
Discuss about a project
or anything else?

Thank you:)

Clean32
08-10-2007, 10:33
Sorry, don't know where to post this!

Must we say:

Discuss a project
or
Discuss about a project
or anything else?

Thank you:)

to Discuss a project
will Discuss the project
did Discuss the project

will talk about a project
will have a meating about the project

a Discusstion about a project

alterego
08-10-2007, 10:41
'Discuss a project' is probably best.

'Discuss about a project' is a bit much, almost redundant, although I'm sure native speakers say it sometimes.

'A discussion about a project' would be a good construction if you want to use 'about'.

Guest
08-10-2007, 11:41
Thank you, we will so discuss THE project :)

MickeyTong
08-10-2007, 11:50
"Discuss" the project.
past tense....."discussed" the project.
Or you could "confer about" the project.

Clean32
08-10-2007, 11:59
Thank you, we will so discuss THE project :)


we will discuss the project. no SO. or

in speech. "so we will discuss the project?"

DJ Biscuit
08-10-2007, 13:23
will have a meating about the project



Or even a 'meeting'!

AndreyS
08-10-2007, 13:26
Or even a 'meeting'!

Meating and feashing with cheapsing at Hemingways'

Korotky Gennady
08-10-2007, 14:15
Sorry, don't know where to post this!

Must we say:

Discuss a project
or
Discuss about a project
or anything else?



I'm not a native but wanna shine with my english knowledge too... :)

Of course they, our precious natives, can say both... There will be no big mistake if you write in anyway as you want. Either " discuss a project" or " discuss about project"...

I think that it will be correct even if you write " discuss over a project"... Let the natives correct me if i am wrong.

Ghostly Presence
08-10-2007, 14:22
to Discuss a project
will Discuss the project
did Discuss the project

will talk about a project
will have a meating about the project

a Discusstion about a project

I got another option to consider:

Forget the stupid project, buy some beer, invite your friends over and have a great time! )))))))))))

DJ Biscuit
08-10-2007, 14:39
I'm not a native but wanna shine with my english knowledge too... :)

Of course they, our precious natives, can say both... There will be no big mistake if you write in anyway as you want. Either " discuss a project" or " discuss about project"...

I think that it will be correct even if you write " discuss over a project"... Let the natives correct me if i am wrong.

You can 'talk something over', but you can't 'discuss over something' or 'discuss something over'. Both are wrong. You can also 'talk something through' but cannot 'discuss something through'.

You can 'talk about a project' or 'discuss a/the project'

Alternatively if you really want to use 'about' you can : 'Have a discussion about the/a project'.

alterego
08-10-2007, 14:44
I'm not a native but wanna shine with my english knowledge too... :)

Of course they, our precious natives, can say both... There will be no big mistake if you write in anyway as you want. Either " discuss a project" or " discuss about project"...

I think that it will be correct even if you write " discuss over a project"... Let the natives correct me if i am wrong.

'discuss about project' is absolutely wrong. (no article)

'discuss over a project' does have meaning but not the one you want. And it would be rather odd circumstances that it would be correct under.

DJ Biscuit
08-10-2007, 14:51
. And it would be rather odd circumstances that it would be correct under.


Or better still: '....under which it would be correct'

:)

Korotky Gennady
08-10-2007, 14:57
Or better still: '....under which it would be correct'

:)

Hmm... and what kind of circumstances could it be ? :yikes: like that our Guest is in ? ;)

MickeyTong
08-10-2007, 17:52
You can't "discuss over a project", but you can "discuss over a beer"

Clean32
08-10-2007, 18:21
my first thought was Guest + Apple = project, but i thats not correct, that would be an event

unteacher
22-10-2007, 22:34
Dear sirs ,thank you for the question that was under the discussion!:)

Bels
22-10-2007, 22:56
Thank you for the best contributers in the English language :)

Let's discuss the issue with or over a beer tomorrow

elis
23-10-2007, 06:14
This is the most awesome post I've come across! I wish I had seen it earlier to add my 2 cents, but all the bases have been covered.

Has anyone thought about a forum dedicated to grammar/ proper word usage --call it what you like--for english and russian?

Len Ganley Stance
23-10-2007, 09:27
Let's discuss the issue with a beer tomorrow

Let's discuss the issue OVER a beer tomorrow.

Sounds much better English to me but what the hell do I know. I am not a teacher.

Bels
23-10-2007, 11:38
Let's discuss the issue OVER a beer tomorrow.

Sounds much better English to me but what the hell do I know. I am not a teacher.

Good point, but who's the one to say which preposition is the best one to use. Our language is flexible, and both are appropriate. However I get your point that in other cases we can use words that are inappropriate.

How's that for babbling.

alterego
23-10-2007, 11:58
Thank you for the best contributers in the English lamguage :)

Let's discuss the issue with a beer tomorrow

Just when I start to think you have a sense of humor you say that you were serious.

Of course you are right, our language is flexible.
"let's discuss it with a beer (in our hands)"
means practically the same thing as
"let's discuss it over a beer"

the second I think most native speakers would agree is more natural.

The first is too easily made into a joke that you and your beer will have a conversation, although the second could almost as easily be misconstrued to mean standing over a beer while you talk.

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 12:06
Good point, but who's the one to say which preposition is the best one to use. Our language is flexible, and both are appropriate. However I get your point that in other cases we can use words that are in-appropriate.

How's that for babbling.

Over a cup of tea or a beer is more common. Don't you agree?

Len Ganley Stance
23-10-2007, 12:10
Good point, but who's the one to say which preposition is the best one to use. Our language is flexible, and both are appropriate. However I get your point that in other cases we can use words that are in-appropriate.



Saying 'Lets discuss the issue with a beer tomorrow' sounds like you're going to discuss an / the issue WITH the beer. Which may well be the case depending on how much you've drunk :farout:.

I never realised that the word in-appropriate, contained a hyphen. I guess that you learn something new every day :). Or, perhaps not.



How's that for babbling.

Up to your usual standards :)

I take it though with the absence of a question mark that the question was rhetorical, which I am being, by the way, so there's no need to answer that.

How much exactly do you English teachers earn here? Sounds like money for old rope to me.

alterego
23-10-2007, 12:14
How much exactly do you English teachers earn here? Sounds like money for old rope to me.

Of course we're selling old rope. Well the American rope isn't quite as old as the British rope.

If you want new rope that would be fads and modern slang.

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 12:30
It's funny here with you teachers (and unteachers). Thanks a million.

Len Ganley Stance
23-10-2007, 12:37
It's funny here with you teachers (and unteachers). Thanks a million.

AndreyS,

No problems. Glad to be of assistance to you and to those claiming to be English teachers!.

I am an Non-Teacher though and not an Unteacher :).

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 12:42
AndreyS,

No problems. Glad to be of assistance to you and to those claiming to be English teachers!.

I am an Non-Teacher though and not an Unteacher :).

I know, I am just quoting one girl's nickname trying to joke. :-((

Bels
23-10-2007, 12:46
Over a cup of tea or a beer is more common. Don't you agree?

Agreed, in this particular case.

Bels
23-10-2007, 12:51
AndreyS,

No problems. Glad to be of assistance to you and to those claiming to be English teachers!.

I am an Non-Teacher though and not an Unteacher :).

Yes, and like you, teachers are not immune to the occasional minor error on a forum.

I'm a non-teacher and not an unteacher

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 13:06
Yes, and like you, teachers are not immune to the occasional minor error on a forum.

I'm a non-teacher and not an unteacher


I remember, LOL, you explained, LOL, unteacher's goal was to unteach, LOL, to blow all knowledge out of our heads .

Oh, guys, anyway, I must start working at last.

Len Ganley Stance
23-10-2007, 13:28
Yes, and like you, teachers are not immune to the occasional minor error on a forum.

I'm a non-teacher and not an unteacher

:doh::doh::doh:

Well spotted

Korotky Gennady
23-10-2007, 19:44
;) How is your opinion... we can say " we discussed this issue yesterday under some beer ?... Could it be correct also ? There is the russian phrase " беседовать под градусом"...

TGP
23-10-2007, 20:25
;) How is your opinion... we can say " we discussed this issue yesterday under some beer ?... Could it be correct also ? There is the russian phrase " беседовать под градусом"...

Someone already wrote that you can discuss whatever over beer.

Беседовать под градусом, I think, is close to "to be tipsy".

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 20:37
Or: jolly

Bels
23-10-2007, 21:22
ok! let's discuss our project over a beer.

An interesting question from my pre-intermediate students.

Mother enters her home, and says " have you eaten yet" or should it be "Did you eat yet". or is it " Have you ate yet ".

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 21:33
ok! let's discuss our project over a beer.

An interesting question from my pre-intermediate students.

Mother enters her home, and says " have you eaten yet" or should it be "Did you eat yet". or is it " Have you ate yet ".

Oh, Bels, it requires a sense of language. Formally, judging from the presence of yet, it should be first phrase. But in colloquial language, it should be second variant.

Korotky Gennady
23-10-2007, 21:37
An interesting question from my pre-intermediate students.

Mother enters her home, and says " have you eaten yet" or should it be "Did you eat yet". or is it " Have you ate yet ".


All phrases are wrong. :yikes:

It have to be " Have you eaten already ? " or " Did you eat something today ? "


Or even " Haven't you eaten yet ? "

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 21:48
Bels, I see you provoked us into this conversation and got away from it all!

TGP
23-10-2007, 21:48
All phrases are wrong. :yikes:

It have to be " Have you eaten already ? " or " Did you eat something today ? "


Or even " Haven't you eaten yet ? "

Or, to void any mistakes, just to ask: "Are you hungry?" or " would you like to have a snack?" :)

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 21:50
Or, to void any mistakes, just to ask: "Are you hungry?" or " would you like to have a snack?" :)

TGP, you are breaking a box, as usual. And Gena also.

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 21:51
Bels, where are you? Teach us a lesson, please.

Bels
23-10-2007, 21:52
All phrases are wrong. :yikes:

It have to be " Have you eaten already ? " or " Did you eat something today ? "


Or even " Haven't you eaten yet ? "

The last quote has a different meaning. The Mother doesn't know if the child has eaten or not.

Sorry, but my course book is right in front of me. What if the Mother wants to know whether her child for example has or hasn't eaten. So that she can make a decision whether to cook for the child.

Or if you are going into a restaurant a bit late to dine with friends, and you don't know whether your friends haven't already eaten.

alterego
23-10-2007, 22:02
All three have different meanings. Different from 'have you eaten yet' as well as different from each other.

Bels
23-10-2007, 22:07
How about, "There isn't enough accomadation". or is it " There aren't enough accomadations".

This is a text book one which I found very funny.

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 22:09
How about, "There isn't enough accomadation". or is it " There aren't enough accomadations".

This is a text book one which I found very funny.

Very clear. It's uncountable. Spelling is really funny.

Korotky Gennady
23-10-2007, 22:14
or " would you like to have a snack?" :)

No. it's not good. " Dear boy,... Could you be so kind to have some beer with me ? " It sounds much much better. :doh:

alterego
23-10-2007, 22:18
How about, "There isn't enough accomadation". or is it " There aren't enough accomadations".

This is a text book one which I found very funny.
Depends on your definition. If you're talking about lodging then the correct spelling is 'accomadations'.
You should buy a dictionary. I find mine to be quite useful when I can't remember some detail like this.

AndreyS
23-10-2007, 22:30
Depends on your definition. If you're talking about lodging then the correct spelling is 'accomadations'.
You should buy a dictionary. I find mine to be quite useful when I can't remember some detail like this.

Not at all. I ve just checked a big monolingual d. Where on earth did you see accomAdation?

And what I found to my shame: "accomodations" exists, it's American.

Bels
24-10-2007, 00:42
I was hoping that second language speakers could join in. The spelling was right in front of me. As I said from a text book, a popular one. Double M of course.

But the point is that the Americans see accommodations as countable. accommodations

That's what I find amusing.

Clean32
24-10-2007, 00:53
Someone already wrote that you can discuss whatever over beer.

Беседовать под градусом, I think, is close to "to be tipsy".

or as i would say half pi$$ed

AndreyS
24-10-2007, 00:56
I was hoping that second language speakers could join in. The spelling was right in front of me. As I said from a text book, a popular one. Double M of course.

But the point is that the Americans see accommodations as countable. accommodations

That's what I find amusing.

Yes, really amusing. I checked the dictionary and didn't notice double m. So I had to check once more. Shame for me. Thank you for the lesson.

alterego
24-10-2007, 08:52
Yes, shame on me. I was concentrating on the last 's' and was sloppy with my vowels.
I think this word is a little bit uncomfortable even for native speakers. I agree that it is probably suppose to be uncountable but the 's' on the end is an attribute that is normally applied to countable nouns. This may trick the brain into an incorrect usage.
I have been compiling lists of such nouns.

countable that are always plural such as 'pants' 'scissors' and 'pajamas' to name a few.

uncountable which are always plural such as 'arms', 'remains', and 'goods'.

a lot of these words have one meaning without the 's', arm-a limb, and another with the 's', arms-weapons.

The same with accommodation/accommodations, although it is harder to see because these two are closely related.

Then the Brits and Americans tend to treat things differntly because of a difference in our respective grammars.
Am; The team is ready.
Br; The team are ready.

One that I really have trouble classifying is 'police'.
I suspect that it is easier to deal with in British English.

MickeyTong
24-10-2007, 12:12
"Accommodations" can also be used to mean compromise or adaptation.......

Bels
24-10-2007, 12:28
"Accommodations" can also be used to mean compromise or adaptation.......

Be careful in its use. Can you give me a few examples in sentences?

AndreyS
24-10-2007, 12:37
Yes, shame on me. I was concentrating on the last 's' and was sloppy with my vowels.
I think this word is a little bit uncomfortable even for native speakers. I agree that it is probably suppose to be uncountable but the 's' on the end is an attribute that is normally applied to countable nouns. This may trick the brain into an incorrect usage.
I have been compiling lists of such nouns.

countable that are always plural such as 'pants' 'scissors' and 'pajamas' to name a few.

uncountable which are always plural such as 'arms', 'remains', and 'goods'.

a lot of these words have one meaning without the 's', arm-a limb, and another with the 's', arms-weapons.

The same with accommodation/accommodations, although it is harder to see because these two are closely related.

Then the Brits and Americans tend to treat things differntly because of a difference in our respective grammars.
Am; The team is ready.
Br; The team are ready.

One that I really have trouble classifying is 'police'.
I suspect that it is easier to deal with in British English.



Thank you very much, you did a good and useful job for us, non-natives.

As far as I remember you both Americans and Brits say (at least on TV): Police are investigating smth.

BTW G.B. Shaw joked about you: British an Americans are separated by the same language.

Do you remember? :-)))

Wish you well.

Bels
24-10-2007, 12:43
Yes, shame on me. I was concentrating on the last 's' and was sloppy with my vowels.
I think this word is a little bit uncomfortable even for native speakers. I agree that it is probably suppose to be uncountable but the 's' on the end is an attribute that is normally applied to countable nouns. This may trick the brain into an incorrect usage.
I have been compiling lists of such nouns.

countable that are always plural such as 'pants' 'scissors' and 'pajamas' to name a few.

uncountable which are always plural such as 'arms', 'remains', and 'goods'.

a lot of these words have one meaning without the 's', arm-a limb, and another with the 's', arms-weapons.

The same with accommodation/accommodations, although it is harder to see because these two are closely related.

Then the Brits and Americans tend to treat things differntly because of a difference in our respective grammars.
Am; The team is ready.
Br; The team are ready.

One that I really have trouble classifying is 'police'.
I suspect that it is easier to deal with in British English.

What do you mean by pants ? underpants? or trousers? :)

AndreyS
24-10-2007, 12:47
What do you mean by pants ? underpants? or trousers? :)

Both, judging from dictionaries.

AndreyS
24-10-2007, 12:56
Be careful in its use.


Beware. It's really dangerous to misuse them. :-)))

Korotky Gennady
24-10-2007, 12:58
All three have different meanings. Different from 'have you eaten yet' as well as different from each other.


Alterego, i don't know wether you are a native speaker or not... but it's absolutly clear for everyone that this phrases have different meaning. The question of Bels was about a possibility to use them when a son comes home and his mother wanna know is he hungry or not ?

see it ?

So i can't understand your point about where i am wrong.

I can add that these phrases have different meanings of coz but they have the one and the same sense.

alterego
24-10-2007, 14:56
All phrases are wrong. :yikes:

It have to be " Have you eaten already ? " or " Did you eat something today ? "


Or even " Haven't you eaten yet ? "

You said this in reply to Bel's
Mother enters her home, and says " have you eaten yet" or should it be "Did you eat yet". or is it " Have you ate yet ".

"Have you eaten" is perfect
"Did you eat yet" is poor even though I imagine it is said from time to time
"have you ate yet" is absolutely wrong.

So you were incorrect when you said 'all phrases are wrong'.

'yet' and 'already' have opposite ideas.
Your use of the negative in "Haven't you eaten yet?' has yet another idea.


In American English 'pants' and 'trousers' are the same thing.
I believe in British English 'pants' refers to a piece of clothing that is not normally seen.

puts a bit of a twist on the idiom

"who wears the pant's in your family?"

AndreyS
24-10-2007, 15:14
"who wears the pant's in your family?"

I remember British version - who wears the trousers in you family or firm, or somewhere else. Which means who is the head, in charge of.

I heard even: She wears two pairs of trousers, which sounds stronger.

Korotky Gennady
24-10-2007, 16:07
You said this in reply to Bel's
Mother enters her home, and says " have you eaten yet" or should it be "Did you eat yet". or is it " Have you ate yet ".

"Have you eaten" is perfect
"Did you eat yet" is poor even though I imagine it is said from time to time
"have you ate yet" is absolutely wrong.

So you were incorrect when you said 'all phrases are wrong'.

'yet' and 'already' have opposite ideas.

Your use of the negative in "Haven't you eaten yet?' has yet another idea.






Alterego, I'm sorry one more time but you didn't answer my guestion about who are you by nationality... an american or a brit ?

Have a notice that I wrote that it's not quite correct to write " Have you eaten yet ? " but to according with my feeling of the english language ( which i was studing in the uni... ) it's absolutly correct to write " Have you eaten ? "...

So the single quite correct way to use "yet" in this phrase is to use it in negative form of question " Haven't you eaten yet ? "

The example : " Everybody thinks Sal is a bad boy, but yet Natalia cannot believe it." ;)

Sal... I'm sorry that I am using you and Natalia for example of grammatical construction...

And you agree with me that " "Did you eat yet" is poor even though I imagine it is said from time to time... "have you ate yet" is absolutely wrong. " I wrote the same...

Korotky Gennady
24-10-2007, 16:13
who wears the pant's in your family?




Anyway it's not your business... :nut:


:fridaysign:

MickeyTong
24-10-2007, 16:53
Be careful in its use. Can you give me a few examples in sentences?

I'm sure that if we were to discuss the issue over a few beers we could reach agreeable accommodations in the areas of dispute.......
.....but sometimes the necessary accommodations required of foreigners to integrate into a new society are more than they can achieve.....

MickeyTong
24-10-2007, 17:06
[QUOTE=Korotky Gennady;302153]
The example : " Everybody thinks Sal is a bad boy, but yet Natalia cannot believe it." ;)
QUOTE]
Sorry Gennady......."but yet" are never used together. You can say "but Natalia can't believe it", "yet Natalia can't believe it" or even "and yet Natalia can't believe it".

MickeyTong
24-10-2007, 17:08
I think pedantry is pants.....

Bels
24-10-2007, 21:20
Alterego, I'm sorry one more time but you didn't answer my guestion about who are you by nationality... an american or a brit ?

Have a notice that I wrote that it's not quite correct to write " Have you eaten yet ? " but to according with my feeling of the english language ( which i was studing in the uni... ) it's absolutly correct to write " Have you eaten ? "...

So the single quite correct way to use "yet" in this phrase is to use it in negative form of question " Haven't you eaten yet ? "

The example : " Everybody thinks Sal is a bad boy, but yet Natalia cannot believe it." ;)

Sal... I'm sorry that I am using you and Natalia for example of grammatical construction...

And you agree with me that " "Did you eat yet" is poor even though I imagine it is said from time to time... "have you ate yet" is absolutely wrong. " I wrote the same...

I guessed he was American, and it's in his profile. He is American.

alterego
24-10-2007, 21:22
Alterego, I'm sorry one more time but you didn't answer my guestion about who are you by nationality... an american or a brit ?

Have a notice that I wrote that it's not quite correct to write " Have you eaten yet ? " but to according with my feeling of the english language ( which i was studing in the uni... ) it's absolutly correct to write " Have you eaten ? "...

So the single quite correct way to use "yet" in this phrase is to use it in negative form of question " Haven't you eaten yet ? "

The example : " Everybody thinks Sal is a bad boy, but yet Natalia cannot believe it." ;)

Sal... I'm sorry that I am using you and Natalia for example of grammatical construction...

And you agree with me that " "Did you eat yet" is poor even though I imagine it is said from time to time... "have you ate yet" is absolutely wrong. " I wrote the same...

I'm American.

No, there is more than one way to use 'yet'.

In the positive, the negative, with questions, or in statements.
Have you eaten yet?
Haven't you eaten yet?
Both ask for the same information but each shows a different perspective of the speaker.

I haven't eaten yet.
This is also possible.


NOT possible is "I have eaten yet."

'yet' in a statement (not a question) means it will change in the future. And if something has already happened then it's not possible to change in the future to it didn't happen.

Fantastika
24-10-2007, 22:16
Have a notice that I wrote that it's not quite correct to write " Have you eaten yet ? " but to according with my feeling of the english language ( which i was studing in the uni... ) it's absolutly correct to write " Have you eaten ? "...

So the single quite correct way to use "yet" in this phrase is to use it in negative form of question " Haven't you eaten yet ? "

The example : " Everybody thinks Sal is a bad boy, but yet Natalia cannot believe it." ;)

And you agree with me that " "Did you eat yet" is poor even though I imagine it is said from time to time... "have you ate yet" is absolutely wrong. " I wrote the same...

Gennady, you don't have to believe all of these "helpful" people. They are way too finicky and fussy. I, and my friends and relatives say quite often, "Did you eat yet?" It sounds much more friendly than the proper and prissy "Have you eaten (yet)?" Nobody I know says that because it sounds like person is trying to be high-class snob. I know this friendly woman in Virginia always saying "Have you ate yet?" because, she knows it is illiterate, she is university graduate, but it makes her seem genuine and welcoming.

Most formal, proper: Have you eaten?
Next... Have you eaten yet?
. Did you eat yet?
Want something to eat? (most common in US)
Have you ate yet?
Eat yet?
How 'bout some chow? (What I usually say)

("Chow" refers to dogfood or army food, so only use it around friends).

"Haven't you eaten yet?" sounds like you are upset ("Why didn't you eat before you came to my house? Now I have to feed you.") or that you're very concerned ("Martha, quick, bring the kid some food, she looks anorexic!")

.........................

" Everybody thinks S is a bad boy, but yet N cannot believe it."

I hear this "but yet" many times in typical American conversation. It is not 100% proper, but grammatically it is okay. It is used by people trying to emphasize a contrast between two things. "I pay f..ck..g taxes, but yet the f..ck..g government wastes my money." They think 2 words reinforces their argument. You only need one, either one. As a writer, always look to cut as many words as possible. Here either one, by itself, is easier on your reader's eyes.

That is, unless you're writing conversation. Then anything, absolutely anything goes. Many fewer rules. Since my writing is 50% conversation, it is filled with ungrammatical, illiterate phrases and slang (like real people talk).

The main rule is understandability, whether you're writing a book, or just talking...

Bels
24-10-2007, 22:31
Gennady, you don't have to believe all of these "helpful" people. They are way too finicky and fussy. I, and my friends and relatives say quite often, "Did you eat yet?" It sounds much more friendly than the proper and prissy "Have you eaten (yet)?" Nobody I know says that because it sounds like person is trying to be high-class snob. I know this friendly woman in Virginia always saying "Have you ate yet?" because, she knows it is illiterate, she is university graduate, but it makes her seem genuine and welcoming.

Most formal, proper: Have you eaten?
Next... Have you eaten yet?
. Did you eat yet?
Want something to eat? (most common in US)
Have you ate yet?
Eat yet?
How 'bout some chow? (What I usually say)

("Chow" refers to dogfood or army food, so only use it around friends).

.........................

" Everybody thinks S is a bad boy, but yet N cannot believe it."

I hear this "but yet" many times in typical American conversation. It is not 100% proper, but grammatically it is okay. It is used by people trying to emphasize a contrast between two things. "I pay f..ck..g taxes, but yet the f..ck..g government wastes my money." They think 2 words reinforces their argument. You only need one, either one. As a writer, always look to cut as many words as possible. Here either one, by itself, is easier on your reader's eyes.

That is, unless you're writing conversation. Then anything, absolutely anything goes. Many fewer rules. Since my writing is 50% conversation, it is filled with ungrammatical, illiterate phrases and slang (like real people talk).

The main rule is understandability, whether you;'re writing a book, or just talking...


Now we're getting somewhere. Which had to do with an interesting article I read in regards to the difference of British and American English. An interesting subject because it is all too common that Russians in particular mix both languages in practice. You cannot mix the languages in exams or in certain lines of work and must be aware of the differences.

To sum it up Americans prefer to use the past simple tense as to the present perfect. In fact I can go as far as stating that Americans prefer past simple in speech. Did you eat is preferred by Americans. Have you eaten is preferred by Brits, because it's more logical.

Fantastika
24-10-2007, 22:40
You cannot mix the languages in exams or in certain lines of work and must be aware of the differences.

Yes, I am thinking I would have problems passing the British exam...


To sum it up Americans prefer to use the past simple tense as to the present perfect. In fact I can go as far as stating that Americans prefer past simple in speech. Did you eat is preferred by Americans. Have you eaten is preferred by Brits, because it's more logical.

My British schoolteacher friend comes to my apartment and always says, "Have you eaten?" and I feel I'm in royal company...Americans like to talk to British visitors, because they love the accent, but also because they have a "way with words." When I went to England, I had a lot of problems understanding what they were talking about.

AlterEgo is also correct, but not when you live in rural Virginia. They talk funny there...

Bels
24-10-2007, 22:52
Yes, I am thinking I would have problems passing the British exam...

No you won't, just stick to American and you pass the proficiency ( educated native speaking level) :)




My British schoolteacher friend comes to my apartment and always says, "Have you eaten?" and I feel I'm in royal company...Americans like to talk to British visitors, because they love the accent, but also because they have a "way with words." When I went to England, I had a lot of problems understanding what they were talking about.

AlterEgo is also correct, but not when you live in rural Virginia. They talk funny there...

And I thought he was just being cautious, And referred to the grammar books.

Fantastika
24-10-2007, 23:17
And I thought he was just being cautious, And referred to the grammar books.

I think I'm trying to say, it's important to usually "talk down" in US, everybody wants you to know they're just one of the "common people" (I could use another phrase, but it would be deleted, I'm sure).

In England, it seems you are looked upon admirably if you use the language more properly. It is refreshing to hear them talk and use proper grammar. In US, you're more likable if you don't use the King's English - you've become snobby.

Clean32
25-10-2007, 00:43
In England, it seems you are looked upon admirably if you use the language more properly. It is refreshing to hear them talk and use proper grammar. In US, you're more likable if you don't use the King's English - you've become snobby.

Same in NZ

TGP
25-10-2007, 01:09
I think I'm trying to say, it's important to usually "talk down" in US, everybody wants you to know they're just one of the "common people" (I could use another phrase, but it would be deleted, I'm sure).

In England, it seems you are looked upon admirably if you use the language more properly. It is refreshing to hear them talk and use proper grammar. In US, you're more likable if you don't use the King's English - you've become snobby.


Something like:

"It coincides with my perception" (British variant) and "I see" (American variant) ? :jester:

sixfootwo
25-10-2007, 01:18
A couple of points:

1) Have you eaten yet ? - this is the present perfect tense used often to describe (or ask) activity which has taken place in past time but with a result in the present time. Think about it . (It is used for other occasions too).
2) A cheat's guide to using this tense is when you want to refer to time phases such as yet, before, already, just, ever , never etc. In English English we use this tense alot : but in American English they use the past simple form (eg I ate already - not "I have eaten already").

This thread started with something about project discussion.
As we all know there are 6 phases of project management...

1) Elation
2) Confusion
3) Seeking out the guilty
4) Punishing the innocent
5) Rewarding the uninvolved
6) Promotion to the next project

To all those in project management - Good Luck. I am delighted not to be one of you....

Fantastika
25-10-2007, 02:08
This thread started with something about project discussion.
As we all know there are 6 phases of project management...

1) Elation
2) Confusion
3) Seeking out the guilty
4) Punishing the innocent
5) Rewarding the uninvolved
6) Promotion to the next project



"Hey, it's good enough for government work," as we used to say in our agency...

AndreyS
25-10-2007, 02:27
Now you don't? Why?

Fantastika
25-10-2007, 02:45
Now you don't? Why?

Now you don't what?

alterego
25-10-2007, 07:49
Gennady, you don't have to believe all of these "helpful" people. They are way too finicky and fussy. I, and my friends and relatives say quite often, "Did you eat yet?" It sounds much more friendly than the proper and prissy "Have you eaten (yet)?" Nobody I know says that because it sounds like person is trying to be high-class snob. I know this friendly woman in Virginia always saying "Have you ate yet?" because, she knows it is illiterate, she is university graduate, but it makes her seem genuine and welcoming.

Most formal, proper: Have you eaten?
Next... Have you eaten yet?
. Did you eat yet?
Want something to eat? (most common in US)
Have you ate yet?
Eat yet?
How 'bout some chow? (What I usually say)

("Chow" refers to dogfood or army food, so only use it around friends).

"Haven't you eaten yet?" sounds like you are upset ("Why didn't you eat before you came to my house? Now I have to feed you.") or that you're very concerned ("Martha, quick, bring the kid some food, she looks anorexic!")

.........................

" Everybody thinks S is a bad boy, but yet N cannot believe it."

I hear this "but yet" many times in typical American conversation. It is not 100% proper, but grammatically it is okay. It is used by people trying to emphasize a contrast between two things. "I pay f..ck..g taxes, but yet the f..ck..g government wastes my money." They think 2 words reinforces their argument. You only need one, either one. As a writer, always look to cut as many words as possible. Here either one, by itself, is easier on your reader's eyes.

That is, unless you're writing conversation. Then anything, absolutely anything goes. Many fewer rules. Since my writing is 50% conversation, it is filled with ungrammatical, illiterate phrases and slang (like real people talk).

The main rule is understandability, whether you're writing a book, or just talking...
I agree that it is a class thing. I grew up middle class and “have you eaten yet?” sounds normal to me. “Did you eat yet?” sounds like the person hadn’t finished thinking before they started speaking, which happens a lot. I imagine that there are areas in the U.S. where this might be a standard phrase.

And yes, people who want to sound elite will use the perfect tense too much. And if they are not too smart they will use it incorrectly. The perfect tense is used because it shows that we are interested in the present. This can be done in many cases by using the present simple. I think everyone would agree that it is a bit much to say first thing when you arrive at work, “I have arrived.” The present simple “I’m here.” is adequate. However if the president of your country comes I’m sure people would say “He’s arrived.”

Once the present tense has been established I think most of the time the perfect aspect would be dropped. Unless emphasis is needed.

John: I feel bad,
Mary: Have you eaten?
John: Yes
Mary: Did you eat at that new restaurant.

For Mary to say ‘have you eaten at that new restaurant’ would be a bit much as the present situation is well established at this point and she is now gathering information about the past . When she said ‘Have you eaten?’ that could have gone either way as the present has been established by John with his ‘I feel bad’. To me ‘did you eat’ at this point would sound too simple.

John: Hi Mary
Mary: Hi John. Did you eat?

This sounds very bad. The present tense has not been established. It does not sound like she wants to know if he is hungry now.

This is too much to think about when you are speaking so I don’t usually go into all of this in my lessons, unless the student demands it. I have my students practice basic phrases that will always use the perfect tense. From that they start to get a feel for them.

As for your example
" Everybody thinks S is a bad boy, but yet N cannot believe it."

That ‘yet’ is a different word. Check my previous post and you’ll see how I threw it in, trying to be humorous I suppose. Your use of ‘yet’ here basically means ‘but’.

Nazar
25-10-2007, 10:31
Sorry, don't know where to post this!

Must we say:

Discuss a project
or
Discuss about a project
or anything else?

Thank you:)

What is a Project
Subject of the Project
How long the project will run
Where the project will run
What is the estimate cost of the project

Nazar

AndreyS
25-10-2007, 11:56
Now you don't what?

Don't say "it's good enough for government work"

sixfootwo
25-10-2007, 14:41
Don't say "it's good enough for government work"


Hey these 6 phases are for everyone...not just gov't !

Fantastika
26-10-2007, 19:17
Don't say "it's good enough for government work"

I "disremembered" the phrase, it was upsossed to be "Close enough for government work." That is, hey if it works, it works, (for example, they ordered a 4 inch hammer, so we sent them a 3-inch hammer - close enough for government work) who cares about the fine details? It is implying there are lesser standards in government vs. private industry.

They still use the phrase, as far as I know. I also still use the phrase...

It is joke. :)

Fantastika
26-10-2007, 19:21
Hey these 6 phases are for everyone...not just gov't !

I remember many times getting e-mails similar to this, when I worked for government. It was great to relieve the stress/boredom...When the computers weren't working, we would pass around "official" documents from the "director" with also such humor...

MickeyTong
31-10-2007, 03:24
. In England, it seems you are looked upon admirably if you use the language more properly. It is refreshing to hear them talk and use proper grammar. In US, you're more likable if you don't use the King's English - you've become snobby.

Errrr.....no. Correct use of language and grammar are important in some social circles, but will provoke hostility in others. I have done unskilled work in factories, warehouses and a bakery, where proper use of language was an alienating factor. Many people in UK don't use proper grammar; a significant percentage of British kids are still functionally illiterate after 12 years of schooling; and tabloid newspapers are written for an audience with a reading age of 8. The Conservative party and its advertising agency (Saatchi and Saatchi) were criticised for their 1979 election campaign, for dumbing down issues and using visual images and slogans. Their defence was that most of the British electorate cannot understand an argument of more than 25 words. Think about this....if it takes more than 25 words to explain your case, they won't understand you!!!!! Scary fact: these people are allowed to vote.

Fantastika
31-10-2007, 03:57
Errrr.....no. Correct use of language and grammar are important in some social circles, but will provoke hostility in others. I have done unskilled work in factories, warehouses and a bakery, where proper use of language was an alienating factor. Many people in UK don't use proper grammar; a significant percentage of British kids are still functionally illiterate after 12 years of schooling; and tabloid newspapers are written for an audience with a reading age of 8. The Conservative party and its advertising agency (Saatchi and Saatchi) were criticised for their 1979 election campaign, for dumbing down issues and using visual images and slogans. Their defence was that most of the British electorate cannot understand an argument of more than 25 words. Think about this....if it takes more than 25 words to explain your case, they won't understand you!!!!! Scary fact: these people are allowed to vote.

OH MY GOD! The CONSERVATIVE Party, 28 years ago, used "visual images" in their election campaign!

We should pass a law prohibiting pictures in campaign literature. Pictures just confuse these stupid voters, who don't know how to vote properly, or which candidiate is the "correct" one...

MickeyTong
31-10-2007, 05:22
No, don't pass any laws, just be aware that most people are thick.
Think back to your early schooldays....English language class....comprehension test -
A narrative of 200-300 words, followed by questions about the story. Many kids could not answer the questions about the story correctly, despite the not-very-complicated story being in front of them.
The 1979 British election campaign was referred to because that is when the observation of 25-word arguments was made. 28 years later, they are still just as illiterate and limited in their comprehension.
Yes, Fantastika, image is what all elections hinge upon. Unfortunately.

J.D.
31-10-2007, 09:57
OH MY GOD! The CONSERVATIVE Party, 28 years ago, used "visual images" in their election campaign!

We should pass a law prohibiting pictures in campaign literature. Pictures just confuse these stupid voters, who don't know how to vote properly, or which candidiate is the "correct" one...

After seeing your take on that I would be curious to see your score from the reading comprhension test on a narrative of 200-300 words.

Fantastika
31-10-2007, 16:48
No, don't pass any laws, just be aware that most people are thick.
Think back to your early schooldays....English language class....comprehension test -
A narrative of 200-300 words, followed by questions about the story. Many kids could not answer the questions about the story correctly, despite the not-very-complicated story being in front of them.
The 1979 British election campaign was referred to because that is when the observation of 25-word arguments was made. 28 years later, they are still just as illiterate and limited in their comprehension.
Yes, Fantastika, image is what all elections hinge upon. Unfortunately.

I agree with you. I would like to see voters required to take a small test to prove that they understand the basic issues and platforms of the candidates. I don't want stupid people voting either, especially if they have no idea of who is running, why or what they are saying...Whenever anyone tries to pass any limitation on this, anything like this in the US, it is attacked as "racist."

In fact, the Democrats are trying to force election boards to allow anyone to vote, without showing any proof of identity, no documents. Then they can just hire busses on election night and bus the illegal immigrants around to visit various polling places. Vote Early, Vote Often!

J.D.
31-10-2007, 17:09
It is viewed as racist with good historical reason. Literacy tests were required in the past in some states and the intent was to exclude black voters. Because of this we will never have them in the future.

Fantastika
31-10-2007, 19:07
It is viewed as racist with good historical reason. Literacy tests were required in the past in some states and the intent was to exclude black voters. Because of this we will never have them in the future.

I don't think people who don't contribute anything to society, like lawyers, should be allowed to vote. And if a person has such a lack of civic responsibility that he knows nothing of the issues...now the Democrats are passing laws to allow prison inmates and convicted murderers to vote, because they usually vote Democratic. And the Democrats are trying to disallow votes from US Army members stationed overseas, because they tend to vote Republican...just like a driver's license, the person should be required to pass test to drive, and to vote...

My post was that *any* attempt to enforce *any* election rules, such as showing your ID to prove who you are, is viewed as "racist."


If Democrats had any brains, they'd be Republicans...