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TolkoRaz
11-03-2012, 13:53
What is the process when one gets fired? What are the usual HR processes?

Thanks, in advance for advice :)

Sparafucile
11-03-2012, 13:57
Three months salary paid in a lump sum.

The big snag for expats is that if your visa was issued by the employer who has let you go, they are supposed to report you to the FMS and request you to turn in your visa.

TolkoRaz
11-03-2012, 14:01
Three months salary paid in a lump sum.

The big snag for expats is that if your visa was issued by the employer who has let you go, they are supposed to report you to the FMS and request you to turn in your visa.

Thanks. I suppose the above is assuming that the sacked person actually has a Work Visa?

What would happen if the person has been sacked on disciplinary grounds?

TolkoRaz
11-03-2012, 14:37
Thanks for your input drtnsnw, but I am sure you will pleased to know it does not refer to me; I am asking on behalf of an Expat colleague who works in Moscow.

Benedikt
11-03-2012, 14:48
Aren't you Russian? Why would you need a work visa?

If you are Russian and you get fired, you are eligible for one month's salary as far as I have seen.


in 99.99% of cases that i have seen or was involved with, the employer was told to write his resignation -voluntarily-, resigning for private and personal reasons. no hassles with the (nonexistent) unions, nothing. In Russia there are only 3 reasons that allow an employer to -fire- an employee. Stealing, taking drugs or being drunk and fighting on the job.
Stealing, first you must inform and call the police, this will involve papers and court cases, and since it is most a bottle of Vodka,fiddling the till, a kgr of meat or the likes (i talk from my experience as Chef) it is not worth the hassles.
drugs/drunk you also have to get a doctor, make a test,again, lots of hassles. and fighting, the same.
so the person resigns -voluntarily- gets a writ in his labor book. Something negative is NOT allowed to be put there. But there is always the phone, and i called always the previous Chef, or personnel called their colleagues if something was not as it was supposed to be with a new person.
as simple as that.
and foreigners and contracts? if they want to get rid of you, a reason is found quickly and easily,not performing as expected,-local employees- can not work with you, again easy as that.
holding back a month's salary, then you know it is time to go.
not so much anymore but still done, a foreigner is being used as -show- for the authorities. sanitation/license and so forth. and once all the stamps are in place, -sorry you can go-.
you are being used to set up a place, train the locals and then- sorry business is not as we expected and part is your fault because your training is bad, results don't bring customers as we thought will be with a foreigner and so forth. so, we let you go-.
any more samples needed?
In THAT respect, Russia is indeed still the wild west. And a contract isn't worth the paper it is written on.

FatAndy
11-03-2012, 15:07
What is the process when one gets fired? What are the usual HR processes?

Thanks, in advance for advice :)
Does he/she work in RF company according to TK RF?

kassandra
11-03-2012, 15:15
It depends on the reason he/she gets fired. up to 3 month salary

http://www.consultant.ru/popular/tkrf/14_17.html
http://www.consultant.ru/popular/tkrf/14_35.html

But in my experience if the fired person is on high position the compensation might be much bigger, on dicsussion.

moscowmail
11-03-2012, 15:58
Hang on, T'Raz, you ain't Russian...

Viola
11-03-2012, 16:00
The big snag for expats is that if your visa was issued by the employer who has let you go, they are supposed to report you to the FMS and request you to turn in your visa.

NOOOOOOOOOO this is wrong.....

TolkoRaz
11-03-2012, 16:11
Thanks all; I will pass on the advice & information

Viola
11-03-2012, 16:12
What would happen if the person has been sacked on disciplinary grounds?

It depends on the kind of disciplinary breach. If it is not very serious there is should be previous documented warning ("Act") signed by other employees that record disciplinary breach. Only then the employee could be fired on disciplinary ground.

If it was smth serious then he/she could be fired.

But this is applicable only if the person had been employed officially.

bob
11-03-2012, 16:23
NOOOOOOOOOO this is wrong.....

What is the correct procedure ? I guess the employer has to report to FMS when it comes to firing an expat since the work visa was issued accordingly.

Viola
11-03-2012, 16:27
What is the correct procedure ? I guess the employer has to report to FMS when it comes to firing an expat since the work visa was issued accordingly.

Visa couldn't be taken away (we are not talking about any serious violations here). You can stay in Russia till the end date of your work visa but to work in Russia your employer should obtain a work permit for you. Work permit is not connected to the employee. If you change the employer you need a new work permit.

Benedikt
11-03-2012, 16:44
NOOOOOOOOOO this is wrong.....


IF you are registered, have a work permit and pay tax. If the employer does NOT do that, how can he hire a new person if for instance on the quota system he has a quota for ONE foreigner and he/she is theoretically still on the books. if you are registered, the employer also has to pay tax, why should he, if you are not here anymore.

of course if you have a visa only, are not registered, it is a different story.
you can stay until the visa has expired and then leave. Or look for new work and then the story begins all over. You work unregistered, you take a high risk and your employer even a bigger one.
and believe me -they- know exactly when you come, when you leave, what you do and where.(it would take to long to explain how i found out. but when i did mt TRP i saw and read a thick bunch of documents that showed from the first flight when i came in, every place i worked, every address i lived at. how they knew, i did not ask and of course would never have gotten an answer anyway. not that i wanted to know)

Viola
11-03-2012, 16:55
Please refer to my previous post.

Visa is issued by Ministry of Foreing Affairs, work permit - by UFMS (Ministry of Internal Affairs). Even if the visa was issued based on your work permit (which is very rare) it couldn't be taken away.

yakspeare
11-03-2012, 17:10
Viola I do not understand your post. When you leave an employer you sign a form stating you had all your required holidays etc under Russian law and this form is then sent away for your visa to be cancelled by FMS. You then have three days to leave the country.

I should point out that a) Most employers don't bother(though there are some tax implications in this) and allow you to stay until visa expiry and b) you have to agree to sign the form. Since I refused, they couldn't cancel my visa. It requires my signature on it.

Also there is a mechanism if you are unfairly fired to be able to stay in the country while court action occurs, rather than be disadvantaged by leaving.

Viola
11-03-2012, 17:21
Viola I do not understand your post. When you leave an employer you sign a form stating you had all your required holidays etc under Russian law and this form is then sent away for your visa to be cancelled by FMS. You then have three days to leave the country.
.

FMS doesn't care about your holidays a bit. IF anyone cares it is a work inspection (but in reality they don't care abit either).
FMS CAN'T cancel visa because they didn't issue it. Visa business belongs to MID (Ministry of foreign affairs).
MID doesn't bother to cancel your visa until you are foreign spy :suspect: or other persona non grata :alien:.

bob
11-03-2012, 17:25
This means that I can continue to visit/stay in Russia till the expiry of my work visa which is valid for 3 years and clearly states the name of my employer on the visa even though i no longer work for the concerned company. Sounds a bit strange.

Viola
11-03-2012, 17:34
This means that I can continue to visit/stay in Russia till the expiry of my work visa which is valid for 3 years and clearly states the name of my employer on the visa even though i no longer work for the concerned company. Sounds a bit strange.

There are not many foreigners who managed to get 3 year visa, most people have visa for 365 days as far as I know.

bob
11-03-2012, 17:55
this is HQS category....3 years

Viola
11-03-2012, 17:57
this is HQS category....3 years

I may be wrong but it is not frequent

ilya25
11-03-2012, 18:17
What is the process when one gets fired? What are the usual HR processes?

Thanks, in advance for advice :)

Pls provide more details so that we could give you relevant comments/ Otherwise it is very generic.
If you are talking about Russia
a) On the last working day you should return all the assets to the company
b) You should sign the termination order and get your labor book with termination reason recorded
c) You should get your final pay check including compensation for unused vacations

ilya25
11-03-2012, 18:24
Visa couldn't be taken away (we are not talking about any serious violations here). You can stay in Russia till the end date of your work visa but to work in Russia your employer should obtain a work permit for you. Work permit is not connected to the employee. If you change the employer you need a new work permit.

I would not quite agree. Working visa is given on the grounds that a foreigner is employed in Russia. And for visa employee employment docs are unique for every Russian employer. Also employer is responsible for foreign EE to properly exit the country. So theoretaclly if a foreigner is termonated employer should initiate a working visa cancellation and make sure that a foreign employee leaves the country. But per my knowledge this is not re-inforced by authorities

inorcist
11-03-2012, 18:25
I may be wrong but it is not frequent

Officially, about 15k of such visas have been issued so far.

When the work contract underlying your work visa is cancelled (and authorities are informed accordingly, i.e. your work permit expires) you have one month time to either leave the country or find a new job and apply for a new HQS visa.

It's written as such in the law, as far as I know. With a 'normal' work visa, you have the days time to leave the country.

bob
13-03-2012, 12:00
Interesting article

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/business_for_business/article/firing-employees-russia-vs-america-differences-in-legal-regulation/442911.html

yakspeare
13-03-2012, 14:06
ilya and incorcist just re-confirmed what I said.

robertmf
13-03-2012, 15:51
... MID doesn't bother to cancel your visa until you are foreign spy :suspect: ...

:10475: Hilarious ;)

TolkoRaz
13-03-2012, 16:08
......... or an NGO! ;)

yakspeare
13-03-2012, 16:10
i like it how it is until you are a foreign spy and not "unless you are foreign spy"

does this mean we might come here with good intentions but become corrupted and convinced to become agents? do the ply us with women , drugs or alcohol? or all three?

FatAndy
13-03-2012, 16:40
Yak, you've forgot "surkovskaya propaganda" ;)

TolkoRaz
13-03-2012, 16:42
It actually means 'When the FSB have decided to categorise somebody as a Foreign Spy' whether they are a Spy or not! ;)

robertmf
13-03-2012, 16:43
i like it how it is until you are a foreign spy and not "unless you are foreign spy"

does this mean we might come here with good intentions but become corrupted and convinced to become agents? do the ply us with women , drugs or alcohol? or all three?

None of the above - which is why "until" comes out so funny. It's the Russian xenophobia in action. Значит **ALL** foreigners will become spies sooner or later. :goblin:

FatAndy
13-03-2012, 17:01
None of the above - which is why "until" comes out so funny. It's the Russian xenophobia in action. Значит **ALL** foreigners will become spies sooner or later. :goblin:

No. They're spies already, but will become dual (or double?) agents. ;)

TolkoRaz
13-03-2012, 17:11
One man's spy is another man's agent, One man's agent is another man's informer! ;)

Its a murky and confusing world! ;)

robertmf
13-03-2012, 17:18
No. They're spies already, but will become dual (or double?) agents. ;)

JOHNNY RIVERS - Secret Agent Man 1966 - YouTube :rasta:

Jack17
13-03-2012, 18:50
Thanks for your input drtnsnw, but I am sure you will pleased to know it does not refer to me; I am asking on behalf of an Expat colleague who works in Moscow.
Right. Of course.

Jack17
13-03-2012, 18:52
ply us with women , drugs or alcohol? or all three?

Do you know any way one can expedite that process?