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View Full Version : Putin to England: Send us evidences !



Guest
28-09-2007, 21:45
V. Putin confirmed that Russia will prosecute Andrey Lugovov IF England sends evidences that he is involved in the Litvishenko case. If England doesn't send any evidences, no action will be done against Lugovov.

Strange that since a few months England shouts that "there are evidences" but does not share them with the Russian authorities...

In Russian only (http://top.rbc.ru/society/28/09/2007/120762.shtml)

Clean32
28-09-2007, 22:13
Very intresting, and quite q turn around for VP, but a smart move. as there were RF police in england working with the UK cops at the time. as as depostions were public, i think it is safe to say that VP knows exacly what evidence there is. that leave me thinking that there is 2 options, first there is evidence for a conviction. this will make england and most of the west Very Happy with mr VP, it will allso keep this guy out of RF politics, with may be of more value to Mr VP.
secondly the evidence would not lead to a conviction, thus takeing the heat of the RF, if managed correctly there could be many points to be socred eather way.

i think its a win win for Mr VP
Good on him.

Bels
28-09-2007, 22:24
V. Putin confirmed that Russia will prosecute Andrey Lugovov IF England sends evidences that he is involved in the Litvishenko case. If England doesn't send any evidences, no action will be done against Lugovov.

Strange that since a few months England shouts that "there are evidences" but does not share them with the Russian authorities...

In Russian only (http://top.rbc.ru/society/28/09/2007/120762.shtml)
Britain wants them in court first. And yes, you have reminded me. Lugovev is a favourite for an election in Russia. I can see the way they are thinking. Quoted from the Times and the times quoting from the British Government they will continue this argument even if it takes years.They want the world to know they are right, the last one my view.

Bels
28-09-2007, 22:26
One thing I do admire about British diplomecy arguments internationally. They are very good. And have 100s of years experience.

Clean32
28-09-2007, 22:38
i was thinking from VP side, its a change in stance for him, why??

Bels
28-09-2007, 22:55
There is evidence. of which there is I am sure. The British police have also been in Moscow. They must go to court to face the evevidence.

We cannot plurarise evidence, evidences don't or err doesn't exist.It's uncountable.

Guest
28-09-2007, 23:11
One thing I do admire about British diplomecy arguments internationally. They are very good. And have 100s of years experience.


It is British humor ? :)

Guest
28-09-2007, 23:17
There is evidence. of which there is I am sure. The British police have also been in Moscow. They must go to court to face the evevidence.

It doesn't work like this! When a country submits a request of extradition, they tell WHY they are asking the guy. "Why" doesn't mean "blah blah blah" but they must show evidences that make the guy supposed to be linked in the considered criminal case.

AFTER the guy is sent to England, they go to court.

But as England is only able to say "We know all, he is the culprit" without telling anything CONCRETE (And I don't speak about telling in the media, but to the Russian authorities!!), it can mean that OR they have NO evidences and are shouting just to cover their attitude (Protecting criminals and terrorists), OR they have what they think "evidences" but for some reason do not want to tell them to Russia. In both cases, they will not obtain anything.

Bels
28-09-2007, 23:19
It is British humor ? :)

Maybe in some cases. But watch out! Even in recent history how has it worked out :) Watch them in action. Iran for example. Old history China, India etc. Words sometimes work much better than action sometimes.

ezik
28-09-2007, 23:24
Sorry to let you down here, but this case is NOT at all about evidence.

If the British police were in Moscow they only got shown what was convenient to show.

What ever goes on now is diplomacy. The British know what happened. The Russians do. What's left is rituals to satisfy the newspapers and the electorate.

The scapegoat now is called Lugovov. Too bad for Lugovov. It could have been anybody else.

Clean32
28-09-2007, 23:50
Why are you getting all wound up about this. Your post is correct, if extradition was possible, and a hearing was arranged then i am sure that the British government would have Shown the evidence or at lest enough evidence to secure an extradition. But that is all academic because they did ask for an extradition, but it was turned down because of the RF constitution. And correct this was.
Now all that is a different issue to what we are talking about now.
Now we are talking about the RF wishing to prosecute in the RF, this is a change of stance by the RF government, until now there has just been a blanket refusal.
If and when this case goes to court, that will be the time to show the evidence, or at depositions or what ever the RF equivalent is.
To date the RF has not given the UK police any forum to Table any evidence at all. So I think your comments about the UK police just saying they have it and doing nothing about it are wrong.
If I am wrong please state when the UK police could have formally supplied the RF government with the evidence? bearing in mined that there were RF police working with the UK police in the UK and RF, so the RF government is well a wear of what evidence there is, just they donít have there official copy so to speak.
Also remember that it is the UK police and not the UK government who has the evidence.




It doesn't work like this! When a country submits a request of extradition, they tell WHY they are asking the guy. "Why" doesn't mean "blah blah blah" but they must show evidences that make the guy supposed to be linked in the considered criminal case.

AFTER the guy is sent to England, they go to court.

But as England is only able to say "We know all, he is the culprit" without telling anything CONCRETE (And I don't speak about telling in the media, but to the Russian authorities!!), it can mean that OR they have NO evidences and are shouting just to cover their attitude (Protecting criminals and terrorists), OR they have what they think "evidences" but for some reason do not want to tell them to Russia. In both cases, they will not obtain anything.

Bels
28-09-2007, 23:53
It doesn't work like this! When a country submits a request of extradition, they tell WHY they are asking the guy. "Why" doesn't mean "blah blah blah" but they must show evidences that make the guy supposed to be linked in the considered criminal case.

AFTER the guy is sent to England, they go to court.

But as England is only able to say "We know all, he is the culprit" without telling anything CONCRETE (And I don't speak about telling in the media, but to the Russian authorities!!), it can mean that OR they have NO evidences and are shouting just to cover their attitude (Protecting criminals and terrorists), OR they have what they think "evidences" but for some reason do not want to tell them to Russia. In both cases, they will not obtain anything.

Believe me. They haven't finished yet. Theres more. They will continue untill the whole world is convinced they are right.They know from investigations they are right, The government has promised they will continue this argument to the end.Scotland yard has a lot of evidence, they are confident.

Guest
29-09-2007, 00:22
Believe me. They haven't finished yet. Theres more. They will continue untill the whole world is convinced they are right.They know from investigations they are right, The government has promised they will continue this argument to the end.Scotland yard has a lot of evidence, they are confident.

You will see that after some time, the "superior interest of England" will make them forget this case. And you know why? Because IF this guy was really eliminated by Russian Services, it is after all normal. He was himself working for the Russian Services, and got refuge abroad. This is called treason, and everybody knows how these people finish. EVERY country in such cases acts in the same way, but generally it doesn't make so much noise. And people who make perpetual provocations from London (in this case) should understand that bills have always to be paid.


So, after England will have shown that they "know" (?!), they will think that after all, this is the rule of the game! And no need to risk a big clash between England and a big supplier of oil and gas.

J.D.
29-09-2007, 07:10
. . . This is called treason, and everybody knows how these people finish. EVERY country in such cases acts in the same way, but generally it doesn't make so much noise.

.

Every country in such cases?
Like Kim Philby?

Guest
29-09-2007, 08:59
Every country in such cases?
Like Kim Philby?


Maybe that the British executors just couldn't find him?

Clean32
29-09-2007, 11:57
Maybe that the British executors just couldn't find him?

LOL you are joking??, or is it a bit of std russian, everyone else is worce so we can do it as well ??, mate this is not just a UK issue, the rest of the world is watching this. Is the RF going to start Violating international borders, and killing forren Nationals AGAIN? if so welcome back to the cold war.

now as a russian you may wish to think its no big deal, you can even tell your slef what ever you want. but Mate that is not how the rest of the world sees it.

Guest
29-09-2007, 12:06
LOL you are joking??, or is it a bit of std russian, everyone else is worce so we can do it as well ??, mate this is not just a UK issue, the rest of the world is watching this. Is the RF going to start Violating international borders, and killing forren Nationals AGAIN? if so welcome back to the cold war.

now as a russian you may wish to think its no big deal, you can even tell your slef what ever you want. but Mate that is not how the rest of the world sees it.


This was humor, as there was British humor in this thread too. More seriously, England probably didn't WANT to eliminate Philby, for their reasons.

"The rest of the world"... You know, I talk with many people of many countries, and a lot of them think that when there is too much provocation, there is a risk of a reply.

And about "welcome back to the cold war"... The cold war ceased for "narod", for sure. But do you think that it stopped for special services? For sure no! Even if we exchange some information between countries, the fundamental goals never changed. Nor the methods.

Clean32
29-09-2007, 12:12
This was humor, as there was British humor in this thread too. More seriously, England probably didn't WANT to eliminate Philby, for their reasons.

"The rest of the world"... You know, I talk with many people of many countries, and a lot of them think that when there is too much provocation, there is a risk of a reply.

And about "welcome back to the cold war"... The cold war ceased for "narod", for sure. But do you think that it stopped for special services? For sure no! Even if we exchange some information between countries, the fundamental goals never changed. Nor the methods.

We are going to have to agree to disagree. you are talking to your peaple i am talking to my peaple. question when was the last time a russian national in russia was killed by an english agent ???

Guest
29-09-2007, 14:46
We are going to have to agree to disagree. you are talking to your peaple i am talking to my peaple. question when was the last time a russian national in russia was killed by an english agent ???

Usually these things stay hidden and never evidences are found.

And when was the last time a british national in england was killed by a russian agent ??? Reply if there are evidences that you KNOW, and can SHOW :)

fenrir
29-09-2007, 22:22
And no need to risk a big clash between England and a big supplier of oil and gas.

England is energy independent. Russia can't pull a Georgia on them.

fenrir
29-09-2007, 22:24
Reply if there are evidences that you KNOW, and can SHOW :)

That is a misleading argument. I can ask you to PROVE that Hitler ordered the killing of the Jews. You can't because court-quality evidence doesn't exist.

Guest
29-09-2007, 22:51
England is energy independent. Russia can't pull a Georgia on them.


Energy independent? LOL! I would be interested to see FACTS! Oil production and oil needs, as for gas!

Guest
29-09-2007, 22:54
That is a misleading argument. I can ask you to PROVE that Hitler ordered the killing of the Jews. You can't because court-quality evidence doesn't exist.


Hum... After our talks about SS parades in Tallinn, this question looks suspicious.

Did you ever hear about Aushwitz, Dachau, etc etc (Sorry for spelling!) Hitler was the head of Germany, and has under his orders the nazis who managed these places. Moreover in a few of his discourses, he called to murder of Jews. So YES, he is responsible for this.


Try something else :(

Clean32
29-09-2007, 23:09
Hum... After our talks about SS parades in Tallinn, this question looks suspicious.

Did you ever hear about Aushwitz, Dachau, etc etc (Sorry for spelling!) Hitler was the head of Germany, and has under his orders the nazis who managed these places. Moreover in a few of his discourses, he called to murder of Jews. So YES, he is responsible for this.


Try something else :(

Mate, stop twisting things, he didnt say he didnt order the jews to be killed he just said that court-quality evidence, isnt there

Guest
29-09-2007, 23:11
Mate, stop twisting things, he didnt say he didnt order the jews to be killed he just said that court-quality evidence, isnt there


Did you ever heard of Nuremberg and the verdicts?

Clean32
29-09-2007, 23:17
Did you ever heard of Nuremberg and the verdicts?

Yep sure have, have you read the convictions ??

Guest
29-09-2007, 23:30
Yep sure have, have you read the convictions ??


Not in detail, and you? :) But I think that you cannot tell that no Court admitted the killing of jews by nazis.

Wasder
30-09-2007, 01:38
Zhirinovsky placed Lugovoy on LDPR's top 3 list for Duma elections just in time. Should he become a member of the parliament, it would be even harder for Britain to get him, as he'd have the immunity of a deputy.
But knowing how little the laws matter in our country, it won't be such a problem if the one in charge of everything (you know who) would really want Lugovoy prosecuted/sent to the Isles.

fenrir
30-09-2007, 10:07
Energy independent? LOL! I would be interested to see FACTS! Oil production and oil needs, as for gas!

England has its own nuclear reactors and coal mines and gets oil and gas from the North Sea. According to 2004 statistics, they produced 2.075 million barrels of oil a day and consumed 1.827 million barrels. Natural gas production was 95.97 billion cubic meters against a consumption of 98.47 billion cubic meters. Sorry Gasprom and Transneft. There aren't any opportunities for turning off the spigots or having a convenient 'technical fault.'

fenrir
30-09-2007, 10:16
Hum... After our talks about SS parades in Tallinn, this question looks suspicious.

Did you ever hear about Aushwitz, Dachau, etc etc (Sorry for spelling!) Hitler was the head of Germany, and has under his orders the nazis who managed these places. Moreover in a few of his discourses, he called to murder of Jews. So YES, he is responsible for this.


Try something else :(

Can it be proved? There are no smoking gun documents with his signature on them (if you have one, you can auction it off for millions because no one else seems to), his regime was full of Jew-hating individuals who did things on their own authority, he was taking a slew of drugs, had numerous of diseases and conditions, etc. Hitler's case is a defense lawyer's wet dream because of all the possibilities of deflecting responsibility.

Guest
30-09-2007, 11:10
> his regime was full of Jew-hating individuals who did things on their own authority,

Yes of course, and Hitler even blamed them for every jew they killed. In fact Hitler is a victim of his generals, he wanted peace and love all over the world, especially for jews. That is why today Estonia is so proud of their SS veterans, probably.

Ok, no need to continue on this topic with such people. You make this forum a great reputation, for sure.

Clean32
30-09-2007, 12:18
again whay have you twisted things around ?? what you have writen has nothing to do with the topic. you asked for some facts that were provided simple
and then you spit the dummy thit the following dribble. come on mate you are better than that. take it as an opatunity not to argue with yopu enermy but to learn.

as to the Nuremberg and the verdicts have a copy here now, and i know it quite well. do you know who was convicted for killing Jews??



> his regime was full of Jew-hating individuals who did things on their own authority,

Yes of course, and Hitler even blamed them for every jew they killed. In fact Hitler is a victim of his generals, he wanted peace and love all over the world, especially for jews. That is why today Estonia is so proud of their SS veterans, probably.

Ok, no need to continue on this topic with such people. You make this forum a great reputation, for sure.

fenrir
30-09-2007, 16:02
> his regime was full of Jew-hating individuals who did things on their own authority,

Yes of course, and Hitler even blamed them for every jew they killed. In fact Hitler is a victim of his generals, he wanted peace and love all over the world, especially for jews. That is why today Estonia is so proud of their SS veterans, probably.

Ok, no need to continue on this topic with such people. You make this forum a great reputation, for sure.

Since you keep on bringing up Estonia, I have another fact for you. Russia has by far many more NEO-NAZI skinheads than Estonia has. Kind of funny, isn't it?

Clean32
30-09-2007, 16:59
This is now getting silly, i now do not beleve that guest is intrested in debate or conversation hes just here to wined us all up. no class

Bels
30-09-2007, 19:07
Since you keep on bringing up Estonia, I have another fact for you. Russia has by far many more NEO-NAZI skinheads than Estonia has. Kind of funny, isn't it?

Let's get even sillier. Britain was the first for skinheads in the 60s. With their levis, Dr Martin boots and BenSherman shirts. As forn now, an organised NF group. There are probably far more skin heads in Britain than there are in Russia.

Bels
30-09-2007, 19:11
Since you keep on bringing up Estonia, I have another fact for you. Russia has by far many more NEO-NAZI skinheads than Estonia has. Kind of funny, isn't it?

Leave poor tiny Estonia alone :) What a comparison Big massive Russia has more Skinheads than Estonia. You couldn't possibly have picked on a smaller country.

fenrir
02-10-2007, 22:10
Leave poor tiny Estonia alone :) What a comparison Big massive Russia has more Skinheads than Estonia. You couldn't possibly have picked on a smaller country.

Ah, BELS. If you have been following this folder for any time, you would know that I am one of the BIGGEST defenders of Estonia. I have been living in Tallinn for over 3 years and am as passionate about the country as most natives here are.