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Punch
08-12-2003, 17:03
After this elections Putin and his dummies in State Duma can do anything. They can amend the constitution and elect him for the third term, they can finally strangle the freedom of speech to the bitter end, and with time they will jail anyone who says something against Chechnya for an instance or criticizes any activities of the ruling clique. There's and there always will be only one inhibiting factor for them - pressure on behalf of the Western countries from which we depend to a great extent. USA and Europe should act more decidedly so that not to allow Russia creep towards dictatorship.
But it seems that Bush is much more concerned with Iraq and other shit like that.

Jet
08-12-2003, 17:11
Yes, Westerners are eager to see Russia prosperous!

sfjohns67
08-12-2003, 17:15
Originally posted by Punch
...Putin and his dummies in State Duma can do anything...
I hear your cry and feel your pain, brother, but the problem is that those members of the ruling clique to which you refer were all elected by popular vote by your fellow countrymen. That's what happens when either 1) campaigns are supported financially by those who stand to benefit the most (i.e. oligarchs, Putin, or some combination thereof) or 2) the ignorant general populace walks to the voting booth singing the very last campaign ditty they heard on tv just before they left their apartment to go vote.

Your country and mine are very much alike in that regard - a dismaying majority of the population simply cannot be bothered to get themselves even marginally informed on relevant issues, issues that can and should affect their voting. Sux deluxe, and their really isn't much you can do other than to continue casting your own well-informed vote and maybe making (or at least supporting) grassroots efforts to inform people more effectively about their candidates.

As for Bush et al casting their eye toward Russia....yeah right. Sabotage a few major oil partnerships and maybe we'll see what happens?

DJ Biscuit
08-12-2003, 17:35
sfjohns,

Could there be another similarity between USA and Russia? Rigged elections

Alexs
08-12-2003, 18:22
What a load of BS...
You really should relax and take it easier, man.

Ned Kelly
08-12-2003, 18:56
as long as he doesn;t threaten bardak he can do whatever he wants

DJ Biscuit
08-12-2003, 19:02
Originally posted by Alexs
What a load of BS...
You really should relax and take it easier, man.

To what and whom are you referring?

And, do people still call each other 'man'? So 70s dude :) :D ;)

polly
09-12-2003, 05:56
punch, altho i feel ya on some of the points, i'd have to say: you really DO NOT want to invite the US to interfere in your country's affairs. we make a big fat mess of things.

Intourist
09-12-2003, 09:06
Originally posted by polly
punch, altho i feel ya on some of the points, i'd have to say: you really DO NOT want to invite the US to interfere in your country's affairs. we make a big fat mess of things.

Yes, can we say, "Chubais" ?

sfjohns67
09-12-2003, 09:25
Originally posted by DJ Biscuit
sfjohns,

Could there be another similarity between USA and Russia? Rigged elections
GASP....SHOCK....OFFENSE....and as much sarcasm I can muster when I ask "surely you can't be serious???" (Insert Jimmy Stewart voice) Why, I'll have you know the United States is the paragon, nay, the very arbiter of all that is good, fair, and honest!!!

Now if you'll esscuse me, I must go blow my nose...blew a big wad of snot out laughing so hard.

mail
09-12-2003, 09:50
Originally posted by Alexs
What a load of BS...
You really should relax and take it easier, man.

You do know the Gore had more in the pop. vote then bush don't you. It not how it works in the States though he who has the most wins.

Missionary
09-12-2003, 11:45
You do know that the popular vote doesn't decide presidential elections in America don't you? We've covered this in a previous post.

mail
09-12-2003, 12:20
Can you read? Look at the second line again.

geneven
09-12-2003, 13:37
Wow, you must be happy that the Gore-Bush thing happened! There are thousands of elections annually in the United States, and very few of them are controversial. Yet because of that one election, "US elections are rigged".

I would like one of you who say that US elections are rigged to cite SEVERAL examples.

Even the Gore-Bush race is not a good example; it is a race that could have been called by the flip of a coin. No matter what had happened, almost half the people in the country would have been dismayed. Democracy itself doesn't work all that well when there's a 50-50 split in opinion.

DaveUKagain
09-12-2003, 13:40
Getting back to Russia- it doesn`t matter WHO is elected if the system stays the same. I can`t see a lot of difference from the "good old days" - a few token freedoms, more Western goods in the shops, a lot more advertising posters, but - it`s still the same old system at the end of the day.

Hopefully (as Punch says) closer alliances with Western governments will keep Russia from going back to "police state" - but, the press is under State control, the police are not accountable and whilst there IS a constitution, try enforcing your "rights" in Russia and see what happens...... at the end of the day, whoever governs Russia will govern it how he likes. Trade links are one thing, but whilst Western governments can make noises about what goes on socially in Russia..... they`re not too bothered beyond those trading factors.

Incidentally, the Yarblocko party is mass e-mailing everyone - including Western friends of mine in southern England. ;-))))

Wanderer
09-12-2003, 13:59
As a bi - stander in political terms, and not so genned-up as you guys on the US & RF poiltical workings, I would just like to send my best wishes to all rank & file Russians. They always seem to end up getting the shit. Tsars, Stalin, Famine, Wars, Mafia, Poverty, Nord Ost , TU144, Kursk, etc etc etc.

And today, a bomb blast near Tverskaya ?

I hope Putin will use all his influence & power to make Russia a great country with better lifestyles for the poor ever - suffering populace.

Ned Kelly
09-12-2003, 14:07
geneven, you should get that carrot removed from your arse at some stage.

oglebov
09-12-2003, 14:31
The present discussion is yet another example of a lack of understanding between Russians and ven (presumably) well-meaning Westerners. The basic problem with the Russian system of governance is the almost total lack of accountability and the reluctance of the rulers even to acknowledge any need for it. The Duma election was a major step backward in that respect. The Western influence can be the only factor helping the Russians, both rulers and the ruled, to understand the ultimate usefulness of accountability. Even when you are claiming that US elections are rigged an honest discussion of that can be very useful for Russians in seeing the scale of their own problems.
Unfortunately, the Westerners fail to appreciate the scale of the Russian woes. The Russian proverb says, Some complain about their soup being just water while others as bitterly complain about their pearls being too small.

sfjohns67
09-12-2003, 14:42
I agree completely, Western influence is the only answer. You think John Wayne took any of this crap from the US when he was alive? I say give Clint Eastwood a 6-year multi-entry, he'll have things straightened out before ya' know it.

Feelin lucky, punk?

Seriously, but what the hell influence can the West render? There are no trade agreements with Russia on which the West could effectively lean, military threat sure as hell isn't an option, what, maybe Dubya threatens to not invite Vova to the ranch next year? What kind of influence?????

oglebov
09-12-2003, 15:06
Education influence in all senses of the word is the only viable answer. Too difficult for the average politicians, of course, to understand.

sfjohns67
09-12-2003, 15:35
Originally posted by oglebov
Education influence in all senses of the word is the only viable answer. Too difficult for the average politicians, of course, to understand.

Okay, maybe ya' got something there. In fact, I think perhaps my office is, on a basic level (perhaps the best place) doing exactly that. I work for a US firm on a joint US-Russian project, and my firm's policy is to hire a Russian specialist whenever/wherever possible. Project management and senior engineer disciplines are still US personnel only, and with the exception of a few personality-based anomalies, the project is carried out in keeping with basic "quality first" values. I would never be so arrogant as to call them patently "American" values, but I'm still idealistic enough to believe in the joint-ness of my project and hope that some influence (Western, by golly!) will leave its positive mark.

kniga
11-12-2003, 13:49
Johnny Reb,

Bless you, old son, I think you've made the most important point of this whole thread: cooperation at the grass roots level is the start of education for both Russians and Americans. None of us "peasants" on either side of the Big Pond are going to have any real influence on the shakers and movers at the top of our countries' respective political pyramids, but we bring our personal influence with us to Russia and leave with the influences gained from our Russian colleagues and friends. Ordinary people have more sense than the leaders, who are more concerned with the exercise of power than taking care of their people. Lead on, Johnny Reb, and save yore Confederate dollars...

sfjohns67
11-12-2003, 14:59
Kniga, that is exactly why with the rare bombastic rant excepted, I try to be the picture of intelligent, well-expressed moderation on this site and elsewhere in my life. I make it a point to frequent Russian establishments (i.e. versus those with mostly expat clientele, no offense), insist very stridently on speaking Russian to the people with whom I interact, and in general try like hell to remember that every person I meet is going to judge not only me, but my country on the basis of the example I set.

Idealistic, unreachable, pie-in-the-sky, but I'm an unreachable...ummm...idealist, that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

But I gotta' admit, those occasional rants are sure as hell fun. :D

kniga
11-12-2003, 15:07
Johnny Reb,

Well, then there are two of us acting as unofficial American Ambassadors, as hopeless a task as it sometimes seems. The use of the Russian language is my most power weapon here, as it is the one sure demonstration that I respect the Russians enough to go to the considerable trouble of learning their difficult language. The Russians may not always believe what you tell them, and with good cause sometimes, but they sure believe their ears when you tell them in Russian.

So, as we say in the South, "Good on ye!"