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Guest
19-09-2007, 22:13
America is always ready to give great recommendations to Russia abour freedom of speech. Listening to America, we can believe that our press isn't free in Russia.

Look how America treats a US journalists asking some questions to the Democrat John Kerry, former US president candidate.

The First Post: John Kerry: University of Florida (http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?filmID=601)

Dear American friends, your reaction is welcome. We Russians are anxiously waiting your next lesson of democracy :rolleyes:

AndreyS
19-09-2007, 22:25
Good example of democracy. See - they didn't push him away, but arrested him. Just for several words. It drives me mad!

AndreyS
19-09-2007, 22:51
To add more: is was questions and answers meeting! And he ASKED...

Guest
19-09-2007, 23:01
Maybe Russia should send official observers for the next US elections, and sponsorize "NGOs" in America, to protect the American people?

Guest
19-09-2007, 23:03
To add more: is was questions and answers meeting! And he ASKED...


Questions should be approved after a severe control, maybe?

AndreyS
19-09-2007, 23:05
You are joking. To be serious: if they call that "democracy", I am against democracy.
We'll manage without such a democracy.

AndreyS
19-09-2007, 23:07
[QUOTE=Guest;288707]Questions should be approved after a severe control, maybe?[/QUOTE
It's also "democracy".
Good for you, Guest.

Judge
19-09-2007, 23:46
Democracy went out of the window in America after JFK was killed,since his death we have had the warmongers in power.

AndreyS
19-09-2007, 23:48
Thank you, Judge. Sorry, if I offended you.

zhenya
20-09-2007, 05:26
I am an American who happens to love Russia.... I also am an American who would agree with the former Mexican President who said that American foreign policy is on the level of a 5th grader (i.e. a 10-year old kid)...

but on this issue, I think you need to research a bit more..... the guy that was arrested was not a journalist, but a student... it appears he was screaming his questions (not really appropriate behavior)... and it also now appears that this student staged this event.... he was laughing and joking with the police about the situation after they arrested him.

Looks to me like he got exactly what he wanted.... publicity.

Guest
20-09-2007, 08:52
Maybe he wanted publicity, he got it, so. But Kerry also got publicity, and not good one. I have myself nothing against America and hardly support Bush in his foreign policy concerning Iraq and Iran. Nevertheless we can see month after month that civil rights go down and down in the USA.

That could stay an internal US affair, IF the USA wouldn't comment - negatively - any point of the situation in Russia, especialy about alleged violations of Human Rights. People who want to give lessons should better to be clean themselves.

Judge
20-09-2007, 22:24
Thank you, Judge. Sorry, if I offended you.

Offended in what way mate...

AndreyS
20-09-2007, 22:36
I was a bit aggressive....

Wasder
21-09-2007, 19:03
Right now there's no democracy in most countries calling themselves democratic, including the United States and Russia. Public elections don't mean a lot. The important governmental positions are occupied by the people who are the results of compromises between various elites.

fenrir
21-09-2007, 23:47
That could stay an internal US affair, IF the USA wouldn't comment - negatively - any point of the situation in Russia, especialy about alleged violations of Human Rights.

Alleged human rights abuses? Can we say CHECHNYA anyone?

AndreyS
21-09-2007, 23:59
Right now there's no democracy in most countries calling themselves democratic, including the United States and Russia. Public elections don't mean a lot. The important governmental positions are occupied by the people who are the results of compromises between various elites.

Absolutely correct. Such is life.

Judge
22-09-2007, 00:04
Alleged human rights abuses? Can we say CHECHNYA anyone?

Human rights go out the window during wars, sad but true.

AndreyS
22-09-2007, 00:08
Alleged human rights abuses? Can we say CHECHNYA anyone?

CHECHYA can be everywhere, where people have a lot of illegal weaponry on hands. That's war, martial law. That's beyond the issue of human rights.
To guarantee human rights you must first win in this war.

AndreyS
22-09-2007, 00:10
Human rights go out the window during wars, sad but true.

Absolutely!!! You outrun me, Judge. Shaking your hand.

quincy
22-09-2007, 13:11
as someone pointed out elections are not enough for a law abiding country. Can you trust the police? the judiciary? The US has conducted a series of illegal wars starting with Vietnam (and its media published lies before the launch of those wars), but inside the country standards are still quite good for its citizens.

AndreyS
22-09-2007, 13:23
as someone pointed out elections are not enough for a law abiding country. Can you trust the police? the judiciary? The US has conducted a series of illegal wars starting with Vietnam (and its media published lies before the launch of those wars), but inside the country standards are still quite good for its citizens.

Absolutely.
It is usually called "double standards" or smth like that.

koshka
27-09-2007, 13:18
Dear American friends, your reaction is welcome. We Russians are anxiously waiting your next lesson of democracy :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


I think you meant to say "Dear American POLITICIANS"?

I think most Americans (including me) are quite quick to criticize the US government!

But it's ok, I'm not offended. We're also quite used to being called idiots and hypocrites. Haha

AndreyS
27-09-2007, 13:23
Dear American friends, your reaction is welcome. We Russians are anxiously waiting your next lesson of democracy :rolleyes:


I think you meant to say "Dear American POLITICIANS"?

I think most Americans (including me) are quite quick to criticize the US government!

But it's ok, I'm not offended. We're also quite used to being called idiots and hypocrites. Haha[/QUOTE]

Right. But if there is democracy in the States, aren't American people responsible for the politicians they voted for?

shamrock
27-09-2007, 14:35
Right. But if there is democracy in the States, aren't American people responsible for the politicians they voted for? Yes we are and we're not doing a very good job of it either.

quincy
27-09-2007, 14:36
when US politicians and media tell the public that they want to export democracy to 'less civilized' parts of the world, the average 'Joe public' feels good and even proud. especially if this export does not involve US casualties. So bombing Yugoslavia and then Afghanistan meant clearing out all the warehouses of thousands of tons of bombs and missiles to allow the arms companies to resume production and bring healthy profits to company bosses and shareholders.:hooray:

exporting democracy only becomes painful when the means of exporting it changes from high altitude bombing to street fighting

shamrock
27-09-2007, 19:20
Actually the average "Joe Public' has heard it all before and is wondering what the punchline is. Democracy is a great and wonderful thing but's it's easily polluted by those in charge. There was a time when America had but one voice and a belief that thru the system, great things could be accomplished. These days about the only majority belief present is that George Bush and his administration are gloopy.

Guest
27-09-2007, 19:36
People maybe don't need so much "democracy", they are more interested to have good job, good meals, good money, good holidays, etc...

AndreyS
27-09-2007, 19:56
People maybe don't need so much "democracy", they are more interested to have good job, good meals, good money, good holidays, etc...

Sorry, Americans.
I would say, US tend to tout their lifestyle calling it "democracy" and "freedom".Bush is banging on about that all the time (just listen). If the country is strong enough. providing it's people with you all mentioned, it can resist American pressure. We all must be strong enough to survive. World is very competitive. Jungle rivalry...

quincy
27-09-2007, 20:07
how to oust Mugabe...


Sir: If opposition forces in Zimbabwe want to oust Mugabe all they need to do is announce to the world, "We've discovered oil." The forces of "peace and democracy" will have invented weapons of mass destruction and be invading before the evening news goes out. Pending, of course, division of lucrative "reconstruction" contracts.

Glenn Sweeney

Wigan, Greater Manchester

Letters: Democracy in Burma - Independent Online Edition > Letters (http://comment.independent.co.uk/letters/article3001604.ece)

ezik
27-09-2007, 20:11
Actually the average "Joe Public' has heard it all before and is wondering what the punchline is. Democracy is a great and wonderful thing but's it's easily polluted by those in charge. There was a time when America had but one voice and a belief that thru the system, great things could be accomplished. These days about the only majority belief present is that George Bush and his administration are gloopy.

Democracy in theory means that "people rule". In practice, if everyone is in charge, no-one is in charge. Hence the class of representing political parties and persons. We all know that power corrupts. Even the most righteous person who is elected, at some point will have to adhere to some rules of the game. Politics is about survival through compromise. So, any politician at some point sees him/herself confronted with a clash between general, personal and party interests. We, the electorate, know that this is going to happen sooner or later.

Therefore we need to constantly watch our "leaders" (stay informed) and make sure we have the controls to put them out of charge when needed. Or, in other words, not be lazy and use only elections as the moments to exercise democratic rights. And if "Joe Public" decides to be lazy and wait for the elections, the smart thing to do is to be at least informed about the possibilities of new leadership.

I think a lot of voters in a lot of countries make the mistake to just sit back, relax and wait for the elected leaders to make things happen. Whether the outside world is going to notice depends a lot on the profile of the country. USA has a huge exposure and a huge army and therefore their elected president (not the sharpest pencil in the box this time, and way too hybrid with his business interests) is more able to make the country look stupid in the eyes of others, than leaders of smaller countries.

Any country can have a stupid leader. It only hurts in an international perspective if this stupid leader leads a big country and has access to a lot of tools.

The same goes for repercussions. If a small country does something stupid but relatively harmless, no-one is going to mind. If a big country invades other countries and drops bombs, many people are going to mind.

I think that the USA is not a better or worse democracy (if a democracy at all) than other so-called democracies. But they just have a bigger global impact, so the harm of them choosing a buffoon for a leader is bigger.

AndreyS
27-09-2007, 20:14
how to oust Mugabe...


Sir: If opposition forces in Zimbabwe want to oust Mugabe all they need to do is announce to the world, "We've discovered oil." The forces of "peace and democracy" will have invented weapons of mass destruction and be invading before the evening news goes out. Pending, of course, division of lucrative "reconstruction" contracts.

Glenn Sweeney

Wigan, Greater Manchester

Letters: Democracy in Burma - Independent Online Edition > Letters (http://comment.independent.co.uk/letters/article3001604.ece)

Brilliant! You couldn't express the idea better!!!

Guest
27-09-2007, 20:35
Sorry, Americans.
I would say, US tend to tout their lifestyle calling it "democracy" and "freedom".Bush is banging on about that all the time (just listen). If the country is strong enough. providing it's people with you all mentioned, it can resist American pressure. We all must be strong enough to survive. World is very competitive. Jungle rivalry...

Which American pressure on Russians? That was a fact 10 years ago, Russians dreamed of America, now they don't. America made too many mistakes the 10 last years to be now an "ideal" for Russians, even if America "fascinates" Russians.

Democracy hasn't the same meaning for Americans and for Russians. Democracy can be seen as the Right to live in comfort, the right to not be hungry, the right to travel, the right to think as people want, etc.
In this way, Russia IS a democracy, even of course if we have still a lot of things to improve especially on the material aspects.

The US and Western Europe "democracy" means in fact "converting other countries to their way of thinking", and THIS democracy, we Russia don't want. And don't need.

quincy
27-09-2007, 21:35
Brilliant! You couldn't express the idea better!!!

Andrey you mean YOU couldn't express it better?;)

AndreyS
27-09-2007, 22:06
Andrey you mean YOU couldn't express it better?;)

Me either.

Clean32
27-09-2007, 22:18
I have posted this before, I dont believe that American democracy is a democracy at all. America has an elected dictatorship that just changes every 4 years possibly, and who gets elected ? Well the man with the better spin-doctor and the deepest pockets. I think Russia would be better looking at say Australia or even Germany for ideas, nether is a perfect fit for Russia but they are much better models than the American model.

ezik
27-09-2007, 22:33
The US and Western Europe "democracy" means in fact "converting other countries to their way of thinking", and THIS democracy, we Russia don't want. And don't need.

...and it wouldn't work here right now anyway, one might add.

Democracy is the magic word nowadays when mentioning some ideal form of governance and society. It has become some sort of export-product, a brand that looks good. It even has become an apology for imperialism. Or something that you can say if you want to avoid the term "globalisation".

One can call Russia "democratic" or think that it should become "democratic". But what does the term, nowadays, really mean? What ever it means today, it is far from the original conception of this form of government, in Russia, the USA and a lot of other "democracies".

AndreyS
27-09-2007, 23:06
Democracy... It's where politicians can't go against public opinion, at least directly. Where they should run for electoral support (using all means). Where they must face questions and answer them in the hot seat. Where there's open political competition in public.
What else?

Guest
27-09-2007, 23:10
In short, when a President has a REAL 80% support from people in his country, we can speak about "democracy" :)

Bels
27-09-2007, 23:11
I can tell you about democaracy in Britain. But I havn't got a clue about America. I have tried to work it out but I can't. Anyway who said that they ever stood for democracy.

AndreyS
27-09-2007, 23:19
In short, when a President has a REAL 80% support from people in his country, we can speak about "democracy" :)

Absolutely.

AndreyS
27-09-2007, 23:21
I can tell you about democaracy in Britain. But I havn't got a clue about America. I have tried to work it out but I can't. Anyway who said that they ever stood for democracy.

Oh, please, Bels, tell us...

quincy
28-09-2007, 02:18
The US and Western Europe "democracy" means in fact "converting other countries to their way of thinking", and THIS democracy, we Russia don't want. And don't need.

Yes there is a degree of intolerance in expecting the whole world not just to sign up to the rule of law and social justice (which everyone in Russia i hope fully supports),but in imposing certain standards, tastes, forms of behaviour etc, such as the way women (and men) should dress and behave (all self respecting 'liberated' women encouraged to dress like men and walk like soldiers:mad:and of course they should swear as much as possible :yikes:). women on the catwalk expected to wear that big long frown (smiling forbidden!). TV and films stress individualism, and discourage the concept of sharing and mutual support...the list goes on

AndreyS
28-09-2007, 10:18
...and it wouldn't work here right now anyway, one might add.

Democracy is the magic word nowadays when mentioning some ideal form of governance and society. It has become some sort of export-product, a brand that looks good. It even has become an apology for imperialism. Or something that you can say if you want to avoid the term "globalisation".

One can call Russia "democratic" or think that it should become "democratic". But what does the term, nowadays, really mean? What ever it means today, it is far from the original conception of this form of government, in Russia, the USA and a lot of other "democracies".

Yes, democracy is now frequently used as word for perfect, fair society. But in it's original sense it only refers to system of power. Opposite to democracy are autocracy, tyranny etc. etc. (where there is no legal possibility of changing authorities).

Bels
28-09-2007, 22:12
The only great leaders of power in America appear to be very rich and out of touch with the every day people. No! America has never stood for democracy, they never started this word of vocabulary and they will never carry it through in communicating to the world with.

shamrock
28-09-2007, 23:23
The only great leaders of power in America appear to be very rich and out of touch with the every day people. No! America has never stood for democracy, they never started this word of vocabulary and they will never carry it through in communicating to the world with.To be fair, I don't think people ever viewed America as the land of Democracy...it has been and still is to a great extent, the land of opportunity. For all the good and bad associated with America, a person can still put forth a lot of hard work and desire and rise to whatever level they find themselves most comfortable with. With that, it also allows them to sink too. Most of the great leaders are self made men (or women)...very few in the lucky sperm club. Most are also very aware of the everyday people and the hardships they face. The leaders job is to not end those hardships but to provide opportunitys for the everyday people to rise above them. Sometimes this method is seen as injustice or cruel yet it's because of this method that opportunitys continue to exist.

ezik
28-09-2007, 23:42
Democracy... It's where politicians can't go against public opinion, at least directly. Where they should run for electoral support (using all means). Where they must face questions and answer them in the hot seat. Where there's open political competition in public.
What else?

Any examples?

AndreyS
29-09-2007, 18:33
Any examples?

How about Britain?

Bels
30-09-2007, 21:32
Democracy went out of the window in America after JFK was killed,since his death we have had the warmongers in power.

Am I wrong in saying that he was in the era of power when America was at war with Vietnam? Here I go appoligising again :) I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced that America has ever stood for democracy.

Clean32
30-09-2007, 22:40
Am I wrong in saying that he was in the era of power when America was at war with Vietnam? Here I go appoligising again :) I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced that America has ever stood for democracy.

Yeppa JFK and the tolkin thing. anothere Millatry management of the US goverment. just like the so called bla bla i could go on for hours

Judge
30-09-2007, 22:54
Am I wrong in saying that he was in the era of power when America was at war with Vietnam? Here I go appoligising again :) I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced that America has ever stood for democracy.

You're right ,JFK sent in troops but he might have taken them out but he didn't know how to do it and he didn't have enough time to withdraw US troops.When President Ngo Dinh Diem was killed,JFK was shocked and probably would have pulled out the troops.This topic is a touchy one, some historians say he would but others say he would have left the troops and put even more troops in Vietnam.

Bels
30-09-2007, 23:16
America is always ready to give great recommendations to Russia abour freedom of speech. Listening to America, we can believe that our press isn't free in Russia.

Look how America treats a US journalists asking some questions to the Democrat John Kerry, former US president candidate.

The First Post: John Kerry: University of Florida (http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?filmID=601)

Dear American friends, your reaction is welcome. We Russians are anxiously waiting your next lesson of democracy :rolleyes:

Let's be fair about this. At the time of an election the Russian tv has become crazy. Russians are saying this. My wife says it and so do my students. In fact some of it so funny and out of touch of with the world. There are a few politicians on telivision who are famous for being like comedians. I daren't even write what has been translated to me while watching. Its so riduculous that most Russians know it is.

Bels
30-09-2007, 23:20
You're right ,JFK sent in troops but he might have taken them out but he didn't know how to do it and he didn't have enough time to withdraw US troops.When President Ngo Dinh Diem was killed,JFK was shocked and probably would have pulled out the troops.This topic is a touchy one, some historians say he would but others say he would have left the troops and put even more troops in Vietnam.

Maybe that was the problem. The force wasn't strong enough. A well planned and very powerful force may well have saved lives on both sides. Get it over quickly and your people at home may not have had time to revolt.

Clean32
30-09-2007, 23:23
You're right ,JFK sent in troops but he might have taken them out but he didn't know how to do it and he didn't have enough time to withdraw US troops.When President Ngo Dinh Diem was killed,JFK was shocked and probably would have pulled out the troops.This topic is a touchy one, some historians say he would but others say he would have left the troops and put even more troops in Vietnam.

have you seen, " the fog of war" well worth it.

JFKs Daddy said something once, that i think says it all, i cant rember the exact words but.
A reporter asked JFKs daddy about a revolution that had just happend in south america ( Somewhere) The JFK family had major holdings in this country.
JFKs daddy said in respoce. i doint care who makes the laws, i only care who controls the economy, thay say what laws are to be made.

still stands today

Clean32
30-09-2007, 23:25
Maybe that was the problem. The force wasn't strong enough. A well planned and very powerful force may well have saved lives on both sides. Get it over quickly and your people at home may not have had time to revolt.


Nope, it was a police action, not a war, it didnt have the basics of a war, ie go there kill eveyone, hold land.

Judge
30-09-2007, 23:49
Nope, it was a police action, not a war, it didnt have the basics of a war, ie go there kill eveyone, hold land.

True.

First they went there and messed around in a country, they had no idea how things worked(kinda like Iraq)and everything turned ugly and they left with their tails between their legs.

Clean32
30-09-2007, 23:56
True.

First they went there and messed around in a country, they had no idea how things worked(kinda like Iraq)and everything turned ugly and they left with their tails between their legs.

America has a habbit of having to fight who thay teach to fight. with only 1 exeption the spanish

Judge
30-09-2007, 23:58
Is this the film you're talking about..

TV Links (http://www.tv-links.co.uk/listings/9/4754)

I have heard about it, not sure if i've seen it yet.

Judge
01-10-2007, 00:00
America has a habbit of having to fight who thay teach to fight. with only 1 exeption the spanish

LOL.... Maybe America would be better off not teaching anyone how to fight,it might make things easier for them in the future.

Clean32
01-10-2007, 00:02
LOL.... Maybe America would be better off not teaching anyone how to fight,it might make things easier for them in the future.

for them ? or for everyone ?

Judge
01-10-2007, 00:11
for them ? or for everyone ?

For both really.If America didn't train anyone they wouldn't come up against them in the future , when the puppet regime they put in turns against them..
You know, this is not just about America,even countries like Russia...wouldn't it be an ideal world if a world wide weapons bad would be in place.

Ghostly Presence
01-10-2007, 10:08
For both really.If America didn't train anyone they wouldn't come up against them in the future , when the puppet regime they put in turns against them..
You know, this is not just about America,even countries like Russia...wouldn't it be an ideal world if a world wide weapons bad would be in place.

Business as usual:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/01/us/01weapons.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

quincy
01-10-2007, 10:30
Business as usual:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/01/us/01weapons.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin


from your article:"At the same time, though, Russia continues to nurture an arms-trade relationship that is deeply disturbing to the Bush administration, by signing weapons deals with oil-rich Venezuela and its anti-American leader"

as usual the NYT doesn't mind to throw in the odd propaganda.
Although Chavez has criticised the US administration's policies he has supplied oil at discount prices to the American poor. Does that make him 'anti-american'?

Ghostly Presence
01-10-2007, 10:37
from your article:"At the same time, though, Russia continues to nurture an arms-trade relationship that is deeply disturbing to the Bush administration, by signing weapons deals with oil-rich Venezuela and its anti-American leader"

as usual the NYT doesn't mind to throw in the odd propaganda.
Although Chavez has criticised the US administration's policies he has supplied oil at discount prices to the American poor. Does that make him 'anti-american'?


I know! I noticed that paragraph as well! They got some nerve expressing concern about someone else's trade deals while being number one exporter of weaponry!

Judge
01-10-2007, 11:12
It also says about America's dealings..

''The study makes clear also that the United States has signed weapons-sales agreements with nations whose records on democracy and human rights are subject to official criticism.''

Ghostly Presence
01-10-2007, 15:58
It also says about America's dealings..

''The study makes clear also that the United States has signed weapons-sales agreements with nations whose records on democracy and human rights are subject to official criticism.''

Apparently, the US even used to provide weapons to Ben Laden when his main foe was Soviet troops in Afganistan. Things have certainly changed quite a bit since then!

It must be the American way – first you create jobs and profits in the US by creating an overseas demand for its weapons; then you start a war with the same folks to whom those weapons were sold and since a war requires more weapons, you produce more jobs and more profits for American companies! Pretty smart!

Fa-Q!
01-10-2007, 19:52
What would happen if someone interrupted Putin's speech with a loud, beligerent and out of place attack on him and his policies? What would happen if the heckler did not shut up when told he was out of line? What would happen if he resisted arrest? What would happen to him after he was removed by police officers and taken down to the station? Hmmm....

Judge
01-10-2007, 19:59
What would happen if someone interrupted Putin's speech with a loud, beligerent and out of place attack on him and his policies? What would happen if the heckler did not shut up when told he was out of line? What would happen if he resisted arrest? What would happen to him after he was removed by police officers and taken down to the station? Hmmm....


:doh::doh: nothing would happen.:jester::jester:

Clean32
01-10-2007, 20:14
:doh::doh: nothing would happen.:jester::jester:

I doint think russians understand Irony

AndreyS
01-10-2007, 20:54
I doint think russians understand Irony

Oooh, I remember your thread called "What Russians can't do".

Judge
01-10-2007, 20:56
I doint think russians understand Irony

Forget about IRONY,the wife can't even bloody IRON.:eek::eek:

quincy
01-10-2007, 21:42
Apparently, the US even used to provide weapons to Ben Laden when his main foe was Soviet troops in Afganistan. Things have certainly changed quite a bit since then!

It must be the American way first you create jobs and profits in the US by creating an overseas demand for its weapons; then you start a war with the same folks to whom those weapons were sold and since a war requires more weapons, you produce more jobs and more profits for American companies! Pretty smart!

according to Fahrenheit 9/11, the bin Laden and Bush families have very close business ties. all members of the bin Laden family then in the US are said to have been whisked out immediately after 9-11 when all flights out of the US had been cancelled

btw the BIG profits are when large amounts of bombs, rockets and missiles are used up as in the 2003 Iraq invasion. as all this stock has now been replenished in the warehouses it's time to get rid of them again (Iran must be as good a place as any to dump them!

Clean32
01-10-2007, 21:48
Oooh, I remember your thread called "What Russians can't do".


LOL and that bloody well backfired on me aye, im sure i was reported to the FSB at least a dozen times for that

Clean32
01-10-2007, 21:49
Forget about IRONY,the wife can't even bloody IRON.:eek::eek:

Yeeeaaaarrrrr, what with russian wifes, i have the same problem

Ghostly Presence
01-10-2007, 22:43
Yeeeaaaarrrrr, what with russian wifes, i have the same problem

Russian wives? How many do you have? How do you manage to juggle more than one? )) Why would you want to put yourself through such an ordeal? ))

Clean32
01-10-2007, 23:32
AAHH now i rember back in the day, when i was traveling a bit, in a month i would be in Shanghigh, KL, BBK and sinagore. the company i worked for agrred that rening appartments for me in each city would be better than living in hotels. you can gess the rest, bit like a sailor a wife in ever port. but then i was usally 1/2 pi$$ed most of the time, now days i cant even rember there names.

but hay that was way back

shamrock
02-10-2007, 02:24
2 falsehoods there. First off, US never backed Bin Laden in any offical capacity. US backed Afghanistan militants and it's entirely possible some funds made there way into Bin Ladens hands but it's considered unlikely since Bin Laden saw the US as an enemy. He more than likely would have refused any help knowing it came from US hands. The second involves the Michael Moore/Fahrenheit 911 reported manner in which certain Arab family were quickly transported out of America shortly after the attacks on the World Trade Center. The familys did in fact leave the US but only after the nation wide flight restrictions were lifted. There were no special flights. Watch the movie again...Michael Moore never says the familys received flights when no flights were allowed...but he attempts to make it seem as if that was the case...complete falsehood.

Ghostly Presence
02-10-2007, 09:30
2 falsehoods there. First off, US never backed Bin Laden in any offical capacity. US backed Afghanistan militants and it's entirely possible some funds made there way into Bin Ladens hands but it's considered unlikely since Bin Laden saw the US as an enemy. He more than likely would have refused any help knowing it came from US hands. The second involves the Michael Moore/Fahrenheit 911 reported manner in which certain Arab family were quickly transported out of America shortly after the attacks on the World Trade Center. The familys did in fact leave the US but only after the nation wide flight restrictions were lifted. There were no special flights. Watch the movie again...Michael Moore never says the familys received flights when no flights were allowed...but he attempts to make it seem as if that was the case...complete falsehood.


The USSR also did not support many of the leftist and anti-American political forces OFFICIALLY but that does not mean that the Soviet weapons and instructors did not end up in their training camps. As for the US - don't you remember the Oliver North affair? You might not actually, but read up on that - it might shed some light for you on the inner working of international politics.

shamrock
02-10-2007, 13:07
The USSR also did not support many of the leftist and anti-American political forces OFFICIALLY but that does not mean that the Soviet weapons and instructors did not end up in their training camps. As for the US - don't you remember the Oliver North affair? You might not actually, but read up on that - it might shed some light for you on the inner working of international politics.Actually I remember the North/Senate investigation quite well. Was very interesting but didn't offer an real surprises. The funny thing about international politics is that most of us see from a perspective of about 2 to 3 moves ahead...the real players (and no, thats not me) generally are about 10 moves ahead. No matter, there's certainly enough black dealings going on without us resorting to assuming all claims made be true. The 2 Bin Laden fables are easily disproven and have been. Bin Laden may have aquired aid thru third or fourth party support but never directly from the US. It should be noted that at the time of his militant actions in Afghanistan against Russia, he was a small bit player of no real importance.:)

Ghostly Presence
02-10-2007, 13:20
Actually I remember the North/Senate investigation quite well. Was very interesting but didn't offer an real surprises. The funny thing about international politics is that most of us see from a perspective of about 2 to 3 moves ahead...the real players (and no, thats not me) generally are about 10 moves ahead. No matter, there's certainly enough black dealings going on without us resorting to assuming all claims made be true. The 2 Bin Laden fables are easily disproven and have been. Bin Laden may have aquired aid thru third or fourth party support but never directly from the US. It should be noted that at the time of his militant actions in Afghanistan against Russia, he was a small bit player of no real importance.:)

Ok, it does not have to be Bin Laden personally who received the weapons from the US directly, but the same group of people, the same political force, i.e. Islamic radicals. Are they not the ones with who the US is fighting all over the world these days? Bin Laden is nothing but a symbol. Even if he perishes, his cause and his followers will go on. So, in essense the US was feeding the beast that bit the feeding hand.

Clean32
02-10-2007, 13:24
Actually I remember the North/Senate investigation quite well. Was very interesting but didn't offer an real surprises. The funny thing about international politics is that most of us see from a perspective of about 2 to 3 moves ahead...the real players (and no, thats not me) generally are about 10 moves ahead. No matter, there's certainly enough black dealings going on without us resorting to assuming all claims made be true. The 2 Bin Laden fables are easily disproven and have been. Bin Laden may have aquired aid thru third or fourth party support but never directly from the US. It should be noted that at the time of his militant actions in Afghanistan against Russia, he was a small bit player of no real importance.:)

Na sorry, he was a big player, becouse of his family, he was 1 of the 3 ways the US got into the game in the 80s. and remember the poms were already in there, the us were late comers, the UK worned the UK about this dude, but how usally thay didnt lisen.

Doint forget Laos

shamrock
02-10-2007, 19:25
Na sorry, he was a big player, becouse of his family, he was 1 of the 3 ways the US got into the game in the 80s. and remember the poms were already in there, the us were late comers, the UK worned the UK about this dude, but how usally thay didnt lisen.

Doint forget LaosAs far as the US was concerned, he was a bit player of no real great importance. Absolutely no idea of how he was seen from a European perspective. It really wasn't until the attack on the USS Cole in October of 2000 that Bin Laden became a major player...at least with the eye's of the US.


Ok, it does not have to be Bin Laden personally who received the weapons from the US directly, but the same group of people, the same political force, i.e. Islamic radicals. Are they not the ones with who the US is fighting all over the world these days? Bin Laden is nothing but a symbol. Even if he perishes, his cause and his followers will go on. So, in essense the US was feeding the beast that bit the feeding hand. No disagreement there. The US government has continued to prove that they consistantly speak out of both sides of their mouths. They backed Saddam when he was an asset against Iran. They backed the Shah of Iran before that. America tends to speak with a great moral authority...and granted, it's a good message...problem is in practice, that moral authority may have little bearing on how a country acts within itself. Religious practice and belief, especially in Muslim country's may forever be at odds with America's moral high ground. With that, America tends to flex it's moral's in manners to best suit it's interests which will always be a sure fire means for failure.

Bels
02-10-2007, 20:00
according to Fahrenheit 9/11, the bin Laden and Bush families have very close business ties. all members of the bin Laden family then in the US are said to have been whisked out immediately after 9-11 when all flights out of the US had been cancelled

btw the BIG profits are when large amounts of bombs, rockets and missiles are used up as in the 2003 Iraq invasion. as all this stock has now been replenished in the warehouses it's time to get rid of them again (Iran must be as good a place as any to dump them!

Why not! America supporeted Britain on declaring war on Iraq when Kuwait was invaded. It looks like Britain and even the what was unlikely France (change of leader I think) is now ready to support Britain and USA in attacking Iran now. Why! because Iran has now claimed that they will ignore the rest of the world and will continue to develop nuclear energy. We don't trust this Iranian leader as he has already made many threats in the past. I hope it's not true what Russian television has stated, that the Russians have decided to supply Uraniam to Iran. The whole world must be against this . This country must never be allowed to have nuclear weapons, especially when other major countries had recently decided to disarm. Now we can't and Britain has already promised that they will increase their nuclear power. I'm getting worried about this.

shamrock
03-10-2007, 14:18
Note...I stand corrected...Bin Laden became a chief American concern after his alleged involvement in the 1998 US Embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya.

I just love getting old and senile.:nut:

TGP
03-10-2007, 21:31
I received th below message from my friend in the US. I think it's to the subject of this discussion. I didn't want to give any comments, but then decided to express a seditious idea that the USA resembles the USSR in some respects. I never voiced this thought of mine as I usually don't like to discuss other countries. Anyway, this is for you to read.
_____________________

There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some Exchange
students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the Prof noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back And stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.

In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question.
He asked, ' Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'
The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke.'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods a nd putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in The last side.
The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around
inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free
corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how To forage in the
woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms- just a little at a time.

One should always remember 'There is no such thing as a free Lunch!' Also, 'You can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Also, if you see that all of this wonderful government 'help' is a problem
confronting the future of democracy in America, you might want to send this on to your friends. If you think the free ride is essential to your way of life then you will probably delete this email, but God help you when the gate slams shut!

Clean32
03-10-2007, 21:37
Note...I stand corrected...Bin Laden became a chief American concern after his alleged involvement in the 1998 US Embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya.

I just love getting old and senile.:nut:

correct " concern" but untill 92 he was regarded as a chief asset

Fantastika
03-10-2007, 22:05
I received th below message from my friend in the US...

...There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some Exchange
students in the class....
One day....

He asked, ' Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'

...The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc....



Reminds me of Orwell's "Animal Farm" (but the pigs were in charge) ...

But what does this have to do with chemistry class? Because many Americans are on Prozac and their kids fed Ritalin? :(

shamrock
03-10-2007, 22:46
correct " concern" but untill 92 he was regarded as a chief assetI find nothing to support that. In 1991, Bin Laden was disenchanted and angry with both the House of al-Saud and the US during the intial stages of the Gulf War. He soon left the country after making a deal with the Royal Family to keep his fortune. Pre 1991, Bin Laden was extremely displeased with the US after they abandoned Afghanistan shortly following the Soviet pull out. I believe this dates to 1988. Prior to that, Bin Laden could conceiveably have been considered an asset based upon his actions against the Soviets though he was never offically a member of any US backed opposition. Bin Laden simply didn't have the capacity at that time to be considered a major player though no doubt is was an asset.:)

shamrock
03-10-2007, 22:48
Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around Well written and contains alot of truth.:thumbsup:

Ghostly Presence
04-10-2007, 09:57
I received th below message from my friend in the US. I think it's to the subject of this discussion. I didn't want to give any comments, but then decided to express a seditious idea that the USA resembles the USSR in some respects. I never voiced this thought of mine as I usually don't like to discuss other countries. Anyway, this is for you to read.
_____________________

There was a Chemistry professor in a large college that had some Exchange
students in the class. One day while the class was in the lab the Prof noticed one young man (exchange student) who kept rubbing his back And stretching as if his back hurt.

The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet lodged in his back. He had been shot while fighting communists in his native country who were trying to overthrow his country's government and install a new communist government.

In the midst of his story he looked at the professor and asked a strange question.
He asked, ' Do you know how to catch wild pigs?'
The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said this was no joke.'You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods a nd putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come everyday to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence up with a gate in The last side.
The pigs, who are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat, you slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd.

Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run around and around
inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free
corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how To forage in the
woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity.

The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening to America. The government keeps pushing us toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP), welfare, medicine, drugs, etc. while we continually lose our freedoms- just a little at a time.

One should always remember 'There is no such thing as a free Lunch!' Also, 'You can never hire someone to provide a service for you cheaper than you can do it yourself.

Also, if you see that all of this wonderful government 'help' is a problem
confronting the future of democracy in America, you might want to send this on to your friends. If you think the free ride is essential to your way of life then you will probably delete this email, but God help you when the gate slams shut!

Though an interesting fable it might be, it sounds like something that the members of various anti-government militias in the US might have written up – starting from Communists’ bullet in the boys’ back (Communists are obviously an anathema to militias by definition), and ending with the boys intricate knowledge of the complexities of the US tax and various industry incentive programs. A bit too intricate for an average exchange student.

shamrock
04-10-2007, 14:55
Though an interesting fable it might be, it sounds like something that the members of various anti-government militias in the US might have written up starting from Communists bullet in the boys back (Communists are obviously an anathema to militias by definition), and ending with the boys intricate knowledge of the complexities of the US tax and various industry incentive programs. A bit too intricate for an average exchange student.If we look into the current US welfare system, a system originally designed to provide temporary relief, it's actually instilled a sense of owness in which the recipients feel they are entitled to a lifetime of benefits. We have generations of familys that have never drawn anything other than a welfare check. The Katrina tragedy is an excellant example in which people have lost touch with knowing how to care for themselves. All past services and problems were handled by the government and when it came time to take control of their own lives, they failed. Too many years in a corn pen. The sad point is that Katrina won't place the burden of correcting these problems on the people themselves but on the government to better 'protect'. Even today, the welfare population of New Orleans waits, many in other states, for the government to make New Orleans whole again. The idea of contributing to the rebuilding of their city is a totally alien concept and one they mostly refuse to participate in.

Fantastika
04-10-2007, 15:41
If we look into the current US welfare system, a system originally designed to provide temporary relief, it's actually instilled a sense of owness in which the recipients feel they are entitled to a lifetime of benefits. We have generations of familys that have never drawn anything other than a welfare check. The Katrina tragedy is an excellant example in which people have lost touch with knowing how to care for themselves. All past services and problems were handled by the government and when it came time to take control of their own lives, they failed. Too many years in a corn pen. The sad point is that Katrina won't place the burden of correcting these problems on the people themselves but on the government to better 'protect'. Even today, the welfare population of New Orleans waits, many in other states, for the government to make New Orleans whole again. The idea of contributing to the rebuilding of their city is a totally alien concept and one they mostly refuse to participate in.

Wow, what a post! :reindeer: I wish I could be as articulate...

I always considered this the "something for nothing" principle, or a perverison of the "exchange" principle. That is, if you give something to somebody, and don't demand a fair exchange, you will get a lot of anti-social activity. If Daddy gives his little princess everything she wants - candy, clothes, jewelry, her own car, without requiring anything in return (work, study hard), she will grow up to be a spoiled brat (and a problem for her future husband). :queen:

If you give someone money (welfare) and don't demand work in exchange, like the rest us have to do (receive paycheck in exchange for work) then they will come to the conclusion that they are "entitled" to this money, without providing anything in return. It is only a short jump in logic to think that stealing is okay (something for nothing again). They are taught by the government that "something for nothing" is the way the world works, so they have smaller problem with such anti-social activity. It is difficult to get someone to want to work when they have "learned" that no one needs to work in order to receive money.

I think it was problem in some post-communist countries, where people who did no work received money from government, then when there was no more communist government and no more money, but not understanding this "exchange" principle, they formed mafias and simply demanded "something for nothing"...

Violation of the "exchange" maxim is like going to work and not getting a paycheck, or an employer who pays for no work. It doesn't compute in the real world.

Where are you from? I have a niece, nephew (6'8") with 5 kids in Concord (outside of Charlotte).

Ghostly Presence
04-10-2007, 23:07
I have a niece, nephew (6'8") with 5 kids in Concord (outside of Charlotte).

I lived in Charlotte for a few years. It's a beautiful city!

Fantastika
04-10-2007, 23:23
I lived in Charlotte for a few years. It's a beautiful city!

The best part of North Carolina is "Steak & Shake" restaurant. The best French fries, hamburgers, milkshakes, in the whole world...(well, next to Five Guys, but they're just getting started franchising)

I drive 300 miles to visit my niece but I always stop twice a day at Steak & Shake (they don't have Steak and Shake in Virginia). And they have Sonic, too. Drive-in restaurant, you pull up, park, roll down your window (each parking place has a menu and microphone) and the waitress brings your order out to you, you don't have to move from behind the wheel. SOOO laazy....

Hey, now that everybody has a car, maybe we could start this in Russia... make some $$$$ :)

shamrock
05-10-2007, 03:54
I'm originally from California (Redondo Beach) and have been residing on the Outer Banks (Kitty Hawk area) for the last 15 years. Our area is a popular spot for Russian students during the summer tourist months (incredible work ethics...these young adults are a pleasure to be around). My wife of 6 years is Russian (she's 44 and I'm 51) originally from Samara and I've been to your country twice, both times traveling with my wife. Really a fantastic place to visit. I look foward to our next trip. Our 4 year old son speaks both Russian and English with equal ease...makes my feeble attempts seem even more pitiful.

shamrock
05-10-2007, 04:00
Hey, now that everybody has a car, maybe we could start this in Russia... make some $$$$ Off topic but my wife and I just got back from the Mazda dealers in Virginia. One of my wifes friends in Samara wants to purchase a car here and have us ship it back to him in Russia. According to him, the Mazda model he wants costs about $70,000 in Russia whereas it's about $32,000 here. He quotes Russian import duties to be about $8,000..shipping will be another 2 to 3 grand. Is there really this big of margin in car prices between Russia and the US??? I remember Audi and Mercedes were close to the same as US pricing last time I was there.:eh:

Ghostly Presence
05-10-2007, 10:52
The best part of North Carolina is "Steak & Shake" restaurant. The best French fries, hamburgers, milkshakes, in the whole world...(well, next to Five Guys, but they're just getting started franchising)

I drive 300 miles to visit my niece but I always stop twice a day at Steak & Shake (they don't have Steak and Shake in Virginia). And they have Sonic, too. Drive-in restaurant, you pull up, park, roll down your window (each parking place has a menu and microphone) and the waitress brings your order out to you, you don't have to move from behind the wheel. SOOO laazy....

Hey, now that everybody has a car, maybe we could start this in Russia... make some $$$$ :)

I have never been to Steak and Shake restaurant, but I loved Five Guys! When I was in DC they had only three locations. Do they have more of them now?
Why can't we have one in Moscow?! ))

Maybe we should start Six Guys?! :))) Different name, same great burgers! ))))

Ghostly Presence
05-10-2007, 10:53
Off topic but my wife and I just got back from the Mazda dealers in Virginia. One of my wifes friends in Samara wants to purchase a car here and have us ship it back to him in Russia. According to him, the Mazda model he wants costs about $70,000 in Russia whereas it's about $32,000 here. He quotes Russian import duties to be about $8,000..shipping will be another 2 to 3 grand. Is there really this big of margin in car prices between Russia and the US??? I remember Audi and Mercedes were close to the same as US pricing last time I was there.:eh:

Here is a Mazda dealer in Moscow:

Major Mazda . Mazda. Mazda 3, Mazda 6 (http://www.mazda-major.ru/)

You can check to see if they sell that particular model and how much it costs here.

shamrock
05-10-2007, 14:20
Here is a Mazda dealer in Moscow:

Major Mazda . Mazda. Mazda 3, Mazda 6 (http://www.mazda-major.ru/)

You can check to see if they sell that particular model and how much it costs here.Thanks for the link. Considerably higher in price than the states. Looks like the model he wants is not available.

Fantastika
07-10-2007, 18:55
I have never been to Steak and Shake restaurant, but I loved Five Guys! When I was in DC they had only three locations. Do they have more of them now?
Why can't we have one in Moscow?! ))

Maybe we should start Six Guys?! :))) Different name, same great burgers! ))))

You were at Five Guys? They are rapidly expanding, I noticed a new one in North Carolina, in May...

I lived in Arlington, Virginia, close the the first Five Guys, they have 6-7 in Fairfax County now...I didn't know they were in DC, too...

The original one was a strange place. When you walked in, you were greeted with ear-popping loud music, including thundering bass vibrating through your bones. You had to scream to deliver your order. The "five guys" running the place looked and acted like they were just released from juvenile prison...

But the food was so good, they always had many customers - wannabe punks from the street, white shirt-and-tie-businessmen, it was strange to see all groups, classes together. Everyone loved their food. And they always gave you twice the amount of French fries you ordered...

Good idea, fast food restaurant in Russia based on Five Guys... The stats are against you - 80% (?) of restaurants (in US) fail within 2 years - but if you could be successful, then you could set up a model, and sell franchises...

Fantastika
07-10-2007, 19:06
Off topic but my wife and I just got back from the Mazda dealers in Virginia. One of my wifes friends in Samara wants to purchase a car here and have us ship it back to him in Russia. According to him, the Mazda model he wants costs about $70,000 in Russia whereas it's about $32,000 here. He quotes Russian import duties to be about $8,000..shipping will be another 2 to 3 grand. Is there really this big of margin in car prices between Russia and the US??? I remember Audi and Mercedes were close to the same as US pricing last time I was there.:eh:

Are you in Samara? Another 70 degree day here...:)

My friend in Samara told me if I want a good deal on a car, go to Moscow. There are many people selling used cars for good prices. It seems they have added income, so they want the latest model, and the used-car market is flooded...

I am wondering what would happen if you have the car shipped to, say, Germany, and then drive it here. How much will they tax you at the border?

shamrock
07-10-2007, 20:31
Are you in Samara? Another 70 degree day here...:)

My friend in Samara told me if I want a good deal on a car, go to Moscow. There are many people selling used cars for good prices. It seems they have added income, so they want the latest model, and the used-car market is flooded...

I am wondering what would happen if you have the car shipped to, say, Germany, and then drive it here. How much will they tax you at the border?Wifes friend is in Samara. He's the one who's done all the research pertaining to this vehicle purchase. Apparently the vehicle (CX9 Mazda) is available but at a pretty high price. He also wants brand new with all the options. So far we're at $35,000 for the car, $2695 for shipping in it's own container, and a guesstimated 7 to 8 grand import duty and fees from Russia. At $46,000 or so, it's seems to be a bargain compared to the $70,000 he was quoted in Russia. No idea why the radical price difference...not even sure if I believe it's accurate.

Fantastika
08-10-2007, 10:07
Wifes friend is in Samara. He's the one who's done all the research pertaining to this vehicle purchase. Apparently the vehicle (CX9 Mazda) is available but at a pretty high price. He also wants brand new with all the options. So far we're at $35,000 for the car, $2695 for shipping in it's own container, and a guesstimated 7 to 8 grand import duty and fees from Russia. At $46,000 or so, it's seems to be a bargain compared to the $70,000 he was quoted in Russia. No idea why the radical price difference...not even sure if I believe it's accurate.

Don't know if this is helpful, but my friend in US ordered a BMW from the factory in Germany, and then a Ferrari in Italy. He had both delivered to US, he says they would (if he wanted to sell) fetch more than he paid...

shamrock
08-10-2007, 12:33
Don't know if this is helpful, but my friend in US ordered a BMW from the factory in Germany, and then a Ferrari in Italy. He had both delivered to US, he says they would (if he wanted to sell) fetch more than he paid...Your friend has good taste in cars.