PDA

View Full Version : Why are foreigners participating in anti-government protests?



mrzuzzo
11-12-2011, 17:41
Ladies and gentlemen,

It has recently come to my attention that expats and foreigners have been taking active participation in the latest anti-government protests. Notably, some of the people from this site and even some of the moderators.

Why? Let's not mind the fact that you can permanently lose your visa if you somehow get meddled up in something illegal. But why do foreigners think that they have a right to interfere and actively participate in Russia's political life?

I think all foreigners must remember that they are just guests in this country, and while every person has the right to an opinion, the fact that you're physically present in this country doesn't give you the right to participate in and decide the fate of a nation that isn't your own.

Let the Russian people decide what's best for them, they are the ones that have lived in this country, they're the ones who voted, they're the ones who had to put through yeas of repressions, the fall of the soviet union, the crazy 90s, and they're the ones that should be deciding the fate of this country. You can get out whenever you want to, most of you are here temporarily and admit it, so what gives you the right to meddle in this county's internal affairs?

I understand most expats here consider themselves to be prophets sent by God and that they seem to think that they have the right to bash Russia and decide what's best for Russians (because they consider themselves smarter), but this still doesn't give you the right to interfere with this country's political system. Please keep your opinions to yourselves. That is all.

P.S. I respect the Russians that went to the demonstrations, they are citizens and voters, and they are the ones who need to decide the fate of this nation!

Viola
11-12-2011, 17:51
Why? Let's not mind the fact that you can permanently lose your visa if you somehow get meddled up in something illegal. But why do foreigners think that they have a right to interfere and actively participate in Russia's political life?



If you are talking about the Saturday protest it was not illegal but officially authorised.
BTW one of the activists of the Solidarnost (organisers of Saturday protest) is French Carin Cleman.

BabyFirefly
11-12-2011, 17:55
Because they think it's their problem, in reality, it's not their country and they should, STFU.

I agree with you entirely. I'm a guest here, if I ever not like it, I will leave. It's not my business to start protesting in a country I'm not able to vote in or anything.

mrzuzzo
11-12-2011, 17:59
If you are talking about the Saturday protest it was not illegal but officially authorised.
BTW one of the activists of the Solidarnost (organisers of Saturday protest) is French Carin Cleman.

I know it was officially authorized. I'm saying that foreigners shouldn't interfere in the political processes of a country that is not theirs. That is all. They have the right to an opinion just like everyone, but they have no right to be involved in Russia's internal affairs.

mds45
11-12-2011, 18:10
I know it was officially authorized. I'm saying that foreigners shouldn't interfere in the political processes of a country that is not theirs. That is all. They have the right to an opinion just like everyone, but they have no right to be involved in Russia's internal affairs.

Exactly !! couldn't agree more !!

L'oiseau bleu
11-12-2011, 18:21
But Zuzzo, look around - there are a lot of countries where foreigners interfere in their politics. with nice words, beautiful slogans and great personal goals. You know one such country quite well:) mm.. even two. Russia is one of their habits, they are so much used to teach us here how to live that can't stop even when their own country needs their presence and priceless support. Plus indivudal aspect - for many people the only way to feel themselves useful in this world is to massage their ego at the expense of others. Even if it looks more and more rediculous with each year.

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 18:26
It's not only their right but it's their duty to help us to install the democracy in Russia.

We live in the Global world and every country is connected to many others... It will be better for everyone on this planet if the values of democracy, humanism, principle of the Human Rihgts will win in Russia and in other parts of the world.

So dear expats... help us to become the democratic state. Not only we need it but you need it too... becoz Russia is a nuclear power and it's in your direct interests to transform this old nuclear Impire into the modern democratic state.

Think about our mutual future. Help us to get rid of Putin and his KGB-commandos at last !

L'oiseau bleu
11-12-2011, 18:30
It's not only their right but it's their duty to help us to install the democracy in Russia.

We live in the Global world and every country is connected to many others... It will be better for everyone on this planet if the values of democracy, humanism, principle of the Human Rihgts will win in Russia and in other parts of the world.

i like this expression - to install. not ot present, not to suggest as human to human. But to install.
Installer has to be master of what he is doing, especially if we take into account that he is dealing with 130 mln of real people, not even computers. They are not sheeps even. Especially if he is democrat.
So please, could you show us first this democratic paradise, this kingdom of humanity and rights, this heaven that can be a goal in our search of Truth?

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 18:43
i like this expression - to install.




Maybe my english is not good. Well, I see... it's not good. By the word 'install" I meant "установить" democracy in Russia.

And I didn't imply the meanings you speak about at all.

BabyFirefly
11-12-2011, 18:45
It's not only their right but it's their duty to help us to install the democracy in Russia.

We live in the Global world and every country is connected to many others... It will be better for everyone on this planet if the values of democracy, humanism, principle of the Human Rihgts will win in Russia and in other parts of the world.

So dear expats... help us to become the democratic state. Not only we need it but you need it too... becoz Russia is a nuclear power and it's in your direct interests to transform this old nuclear Impire into the modern democratic state.

Think about our mutual future. Help us to get rid of Putin and his KGB-commandos at last !

So you don't care that, for example, that many students I study with, Americans who will be here no more than eight months, feel that not only they are more intelligent and "better" than Russians because they have a "real democracy", and they go to protest your political matters, matters that do not affect them and never will, because they will leave after 8 months, and not come back again? They have no family here, pay no taxes, and all they care about this country is getting laid and drinking the cheap booze. They see no good in Russia because like I said, they only see the girls with short skirts and the cheap booze. They are closed minded and unwilling to learn and respect your culture, yet feel that they are these prophetic beings that must force "democracy"... at least their American democracy, in a country which the refer to as a "hellhole" with "no potential", "stupid people", and so on and so forth. In their eyes, they are "helping" you, because you, as Russian, are "uncapable" and too uneducated, and "brainwashed" to protest. And these are words I've been personally told by them, not something I've invented to bring a point across.

If a bunch of foreigners who hated my country and then were leaving it had the... to come and then act like they have a say and protest what isn't theirs and what doesn't affect them, I'd be very angry. If you are an expat who has family here, who has respect for Russia and its customs, who lives and will live here long term, then I understand going to protest. But some idiot tourists coming in who feel Russia is below them? I'm not Russian and it pisses me off.

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 18:47
So please, could you show us first this democratic paradise, this kingdom of humanity and rights, this heaven that can be a goal in our search of Truth?

Of course I am not gonna do it. It's your task to make your Russia the kingdom of humanity and human rights defending state.

If your search for truth goes the other way it's not my problem to any extent.

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 18:57
They have no family here, pay no taxes, and all they care about this country is getting laid and drinking the cheap booze.
.

Okey, now I see how the ideal life looks in the eyes of american studentesses here...

Very good. Very very good.


...They see no good in Russia because like I said, they only see the girls with short skirts and the cheap booze. They are closed minded and unwilling to learn and respect your culture, yet feel that they are these prophetic beings that must force "democracy"... at least their American democracy, in a country which the refer to as a "hellhole" with "no potential", "stupid people", and so on and so forth. In their eyes, they are "helping" you,

...because you, as Russian, are "uncapable" and too uneducated, and "brainwashed" to protest. And these are words I've been personally told by them, not something I've invented to bring a point across. .

As I told two minutes ago... Democratic Russia is our common interest. America will get a lot of good things from partnership with new democratic country with a huge potencial for development.

L'oiseau bleu
11-12-2011, 19:06
Democratic Russia is our common interest. America will get a lot of good things from partnership with new democratic country with a huge potencial for development.

who are You? give me the list of people - I ll organize charity foundation to buy you house in Maiami and you will leave and forget this infection for my country.
To make it clear, Gena, may be it will be surprise for you - but not to all people democracy and American values can be considered as really valuable and desired. I would be happy to see my people as Russians with Russian values, without American emotional suppression and psychological problems. When one notices garbage in his house he usually brings brush, not garbage from another house.
so before you teach us how to reach a goal make sure that this goal is common for everyone and is really worth of.
really wierd.. are u sure you teach history and still call America democratic country?

PeteD
11-12-2011, 19:29
Ladies and gentlemen,

It has recently come to my attention that expats and foreigners have been taking active participation in the latest anti-government protests. Notably, some of the people from this site and even some of the moderators.

Why? Let's not mind the fact that you can permanently lose your visa if you somehow get meddled up in something illegal. But why do foreigners think that they have a right to interfere and actively participate in Russia's political life?

I think all foreigners must remember that they are just guests in this country, and while every person has the right to an opinion, the fact that you're physically present in this country doesn't give you the right to participate in and decide the fate of a nation that isn't your own.

Let the Russian people decide what's best for them, they are the ones that have lived in this country, they're the ones who voted, they're the ones who had to put through yeas of repressions, the fall of the soviet union, the crazy 90s, and they're the ones that should be deciding the fate of this country. You can get out whenever you want to, most of you are here temporarily and admit it, so what gives you the right to meddle in this county's internal affairs?

I understand most expats here consider themselves to be prophets sent by God and that they seem to think that they have the right to bash Russia and decide what's best for Russians (because they consider themselves smarter), but this still doesn't give you the right to interfere with this country's political system. Please keep your opinions to yourselves. That is all.

P.S. I respect the Russians that went to the demonstrations, they are citizens and voters, and they are the ones who need to decide the fate of this nation!



I was delighted to read this post!

I agree, apart from the bit that "most expats here consider themselves to be prophets sent by God".

I pay taxes here. I am married to a Russian, so didn't come here for the "girls in short skirts", as mentioned later/earlier in this thread.

We are guests and shouldn't interfere, as much as we might think we have an opinion.

Maybe, after understanding this, people might begin to realise how difficult a job UN "Peacekeeping Forces" have, in places like Kosovo, where they witness, first hand, inhumane acts, and are not allowed to "interfere".

We are all human beings. We do not have a "divine right" to inflict our opinions, attitudes, lifestyles and values on other communities.

Excellent post, Mr Zuzzo!

BrandonL
11-12-2011, 19:30
I was at the protest. why? I live here. it affects my life as well. my girlfriend lives here its important to and for her. so its important to me. I call this place my home just like Russian citizens.
I have my right to do as I please you don't like it? no one cares, it's my life my choices. I support a fair election as do the protesters. so why should I not support something I support?

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 19:31
who are You? give me the list of people - I ll organize charity foundation to buy you house in Maiami and you will leave and forget this infection for my country.?

Nope, you don't even dream about it. You never buy me for a house in Maiami. Material values matter very little for me. And I am not a corruptiable Putin's offcial.

Leave Russia and live in this house yourself. Democracy is a big spiritual benefit for russian people.

Unfortunetly never in the long russian history the russian people don't know the Freedom and only now they have a little chance to get it.

My ancestors were serfs and they couldn't even dream about Freedom. Their masters had full control over their minds... But now the time for installing Democracy is comming here...




American values can be considered as really valuable and desired. I would be happy to see my people as Russians with Russian values, without American emotional suppression and psychological problems. When one notices garbage in his house he usually brings brush, not garbage from another house.
so before you teach us how to reach a goal make sure that this goal is common for everyone and is really worth of.
really wierd.. are u sure you teach history and still call America democratic country??

Democracy isn't an american invention. The first time it appeared in the Ancient Greece and Rome... but this fact doesn't make it undesirable for Russia becoz it's an universal value.

Every conscious man need it for life. Only pathological minds don't want to be free... and the democracy is a crucial condition for it.

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 19:40
I was at the protest. why? I live here. it affects my life as well. my girlfriend lives here its important to and for her. so its important to me. I call this place my home just like Russian citizens.
I have my right to do as I please you don't like it? no one cares, it's my life my choices. I support a fair election as do the protesters. so why should I not support something I support?

Brandon, of course you made it right that you interfered in it. Becoz it's a moral duty of every honest man to fight against Unfairness in every point across the world.

Since WW2 we live in the global world and we have do it for those who are opressed in it.

And by the way the fact that you interfered in it... shows that you are not an egoist as the most of the russians are... who think only about themselves and don't give the f..ck about others.

Now they try to cultivate the egoism in the russians. In this way it's easy for them to control us. :fudd:

TolkoRaz
11-12-2011, 19:59
I was at the protest. why? I live here. it affects my life as well. my girlfriend lives here its important to and for her. so its important to me. I call this place my home just like Russian citizens.
I have my right to do as I please you don't like it? no one cares, it's my life my choices. I support a fair election as do the protesters. so why should I not support something I support?

This is entirely a Russian matter - I am sure you Americans would get very pi**ed off if a load of Polish, Russians or Ukrainians started demonstrating against a host country and about their domestic policies etc.

You have no legal vote, you are not a Russian citizen, so if you don't like it, get back to where you come from! :coffee:

BrandonL
11-12-2011, 20:03
Let me give a more extreme example, but the basis is the same either way.

Let's say the gov't says it's ok to rape women, what then? I know it's wrong, it's horrible, but since I'm not a citizen, I shouldn't give a crap, and not voice my opinion?
Now MR Z. Let's say that your girlfriend got raped, and the police, and no one does anything, since, it's law, but hey...you don't care right? it's not your country, it's not your problem right?

that is where your logic is flawed, you DO live here, what happens here affects you, your friends, your loved ones in this country.

I love Russia, I love my life here, I love my Fiance here, I love my friends, her family. What affects them, affects me, this gov't affects MY life, so I have a right, to voice my opinion, I can't vote, but I do what I can, to make my voice heard, and I promise you, more russians are happy that I was there, to support a cause they are fighting for, and i'm fighting for, then weren't

BrandonL
11-12-2011, 20:05
This is entirely a Russian matter - I am sure you Americans would get very pi**ed off if a load of Polish, Russians or Ukrainians started demonstrating against a host country and about their domestic policies etc.

You have no legal vote, you are not a Russian citizen, so if you don't like it, get back to where you come from! :coffee:


Hello, my girlfriend IS Russian, my friends are Russian. they are important to me, what's important to them, are important to me.

Last I checked I LIVE in this country, it's my home as much as any other Russian.

If I could vote I would vote, but I can't so I let my voice be heard in other ways.
I support what I think is right. no matter what country i'm in.

TolkoRaz, let's talk about ANY subject, that Russians, or any other country likes to voice their opinion, I guess they have no right to say anything, because well hell, it's not THEIR country.

How many times have I heard Russians say things about what is happening in America, and vice versa, according to you, what right do they have to say anything? It's not their country.

Sorry your view is too narrow, life doesn't work that way.

TolkoRaz
11-12-2011, 20:17
.

TolkoRaz
11-12-2011, 20:20
Hello, my girlfriend IS Russian, my friends are Russian. they are important to me, what's important to them, are important to me.

Last I checked I LIVE in this country, it's my home as much as any other Russian.

If I could vote I would vote, but I can't so I let my voice be heard in other ways.
I support what I think is right. no matter what country i'm in.

TolkoRaz, let's talk about ANY subject, that Russians, or any other country likes to voice their opinion, I guess they have no right to say anything, because well hell, it's not THEIR country.

How many times have I heard Russians say things about what is happening in America, and vice versa, according to you, what right do they have to say anything? It's not their country.

Sorry your view is too narrow, life doesn't work that way.

Of course my view is too narrow - what do I know? :reindeer:

However, there is huge difference between discussing, debating and physically taking part / supporting political demonstrations :book:

Anyhow, if the OMON or FSB get you, you'll soon be kissing 'good-bye' to Moscow and could back in the Evil Empire by Christmas :10310:

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 20:43
Anyhow, if the OMON or FSB get you, you'll soon be kissing 'good-bye' to Moscow and could back in the Evil Empire by Christmas :10310:

They can't catch him. He did nothing illegal. He just accompany his friends at the officially allowed rally.

mrzuzzo
11-12-2011, 20:47
Let's say the gov't says it's ok to rape women, what then?

You, and all the other expats, me included, would be on a plane home with our girlfriends.

But you know your example is pointless, because that will not happen.



that is where your logic is flawed, you DO live here, what happens here affects you, your friends, your loved ones in this country.

Yes it does, but that doesn't give me a right to decide and participate in this country's politics. Why? Because I, first of all, can't have an objective point of view - I didn't grow up in this country, my family does not live here, I have a citizenship of another country, I can always leave.. the people that are voting cannot and they are the ones that should decide, not me or you.



Last I checked I LIVE in this country, it's my home as much as any other Russian.

No, your home is America. My home is Canada. We are guests. Living in a country for 2 years doesn't make it your home and give you the rights to decide for its citizens.



I support what I think is right. no matter what country i'm in.

You're not just supporting, you're actively participating.



How many times have I heard Russians say things about what is happening in America, and vice versa, according to you, what right do they have to say anything? It's not their country.

They have a right to say whatever they think, just like you do. What they do not have the right to do, is to participate in the politics of America. It's none of their business.



I love my life here, I love my Fiance here, I love my friends,


Hello, my girlfriend IS Russian, my friends are Russian.

So which one is it? Girlfriend or fiance?

I'm not saying you have no right to an opinion, of course you do, we all do. I'm saying we have no right to go to the protests, and participate in deciding the fate of an entire nation that is, at the end of the day, not ours.

We are guests, and should behave as such. Period.

BrandonL
11-12-2011, 20:52
They have a right to say whatever they think, just like you do. What they do not have the right to do, is to participate in the politics of America. It's none of their business.


Last I checked, voicing an opinion is to participate.

So once again, your logic is flawed.
If two people are having an conversation, and "voice your opinion" on the subject, you are an active participant.






No, your home is America. My home is Canada. We are guests. Living in a country for 2 years doesn't make it your home and give you the rights to decide for its citizens.



No, you are wrong, my home, is where I live, where I sleep at night, where I cook dinner.

Last I checked, that is in Russia.
Where am I from? I'm from America, it will always be my home in an abstract way.





No, your home is America. My home is Canada. We are guests. Living in a country for 2 years doesn't make it your home and give you the rights to decide for its citizens.





What? there is a certain amount of time you have to live someplace, before you call it a home? eh, no I don't think so.

if I live in America, in Colorado, and I JUST to move to Boston, and get an apartment, I guess it's not my home right? Cause I just moved there.

Length of time, doesn't mean crap, on what a home is.

I guess when I marry Alina, and I move everything I have here, it will never be home to me? Cause I'm not from this country?
You are failing at trolling.

Where you are from, doesn't mean that you can't call someplace else home.

mrzuzzo
11-12-2011, 21:00
Last I checked, voicing an opinion is to participate.

By going political protest, you are doing the same thing as voting, you are taking part in an internal political process. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but, you as a US citizen, should not be entitled to participate in the political processes of a country that you are not a citizen of.



Where am I from? I'm from America, it will always be my home in an abstract way.

Abstract way? For 99% of the voting citizens here, Russia is their home in every way, they cannot leave Russia. Sure, Russia is your home in a way, but you're free to leave at any time, they are not. They are the ones who have no real choice but to live here, so they are the ones who should be deciding their fate.

BrandonL
11-12-2011, 21:07
By going political protest, you are doing the same thing as voting, you are taking part in an internal political process. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but, you as a US citizen, should not be entitled to participate in the political processes of a country that you are not a citizen of.



Abstract way? For 99% of the voting citizens here, Russia is their home in every way, they cannot leave Russia. Sure, Russia is your home in a way, but you're free to leave at any time, they are not. They are the ones who have no real choice but to live here, so they are the ones who should be deciding their fate.


I'm not at this protest, holding up signs, screaming for change, I was there, to support my girlfriend, and my friends who went.

the "political process" affects me, did you know that? or are you that blind?

and you are wrong, Russian's aren't prisoners of this country, they can leave. they just don't know how to, and that's their problem.

Example, I have a student, who dreams of going to America, and living there and getting a job, and he always tells me he can't as it's too difficult.

while I have another student who is just as smart, who guess what, spent 2 days, and found 10 companies that are hiring, and he has interviews next month, that will sponsor his Visa and everything. He said "it was so easy, why don't more people do this?"


Ignorance is no excuse
If you have the will, the drive and the dedication, you can do what you want.

mrzuzzo
11-12-2011, 21:15
Russian's aren't prisoners of this country, they can leave. they just don't know how to, and that's their problem.

Say that to my 50yr old father who is a factory worker here in Moscow making 25K rubles a month and does not speak any language other than Russian.

Say that to the people living far from Moscow in their villages, who don't even have a chance to properly learn Russian, let alone any other language.

I guess that's their problem too and they're responsible?

And, these are the people that should be deciding the fate of this country, not American expats who live in Moscow and feel like it's their duty to meddle in this country's affairs because no matter what happens, it doesn't have to affect them.

BrandonL
11-12-2011, 21:17
Say that to my 50yr old father who is a factory worker here in Moscow making 25K rubles a month and does not speak any language other than Russian.

Say that to the people living far from Moscow in their villages, who don't even have a chance to properly learn Russian, let alone any other language.

I guess that's their problem too and they're responsible?

And, these are the people that should be deciding the fate of this country, not American expats who live in Moscow and feel like it's their duty to meddle in this country's affairs because no matter what happens, it doesn't have to affect them.

I could go low here....but I won't, actually I will.

He can go to Ukraine, it's not Russia, it's another country, so I just proved you wrong.

Wanna try something else?

NO ONE IS A PRISONER OR RUSSIA.
THEY CAN LEAVE ANYTIME THEY WANT

Will life be better? Who knows, but yes, they can leave.

Rhubard Geoff
11-12-2011, 21:23
While we are at it can we stop all those ludicrous Russian oligarchs from using the British courts to sue each other.

After all, Moscow has a fully functioning legal system

BrandonL
11-12-2011, 21:25
Most foreigners went to the protest so they could post photos of themselves on Facebook and show their friends back home how "cool" they are.

Interestingly, I saw alot of Russians with protest signs in English...

Actually, I thought that was quite funny.

I saw about 10 or so signs in English.

Periwinkle
11-12-2011, 21:25
But Zuzzo, look around - there are a lot of countries where foreigners interfere in their politics. with nice words, beautiful slogans and great personal goals. You know one such country quite well:) mm.. even two. Russia is one of their habits, they are so much used to teach us here how to live that can't stop even when their own country needs their presence and priceless support. Plus indivudal aspect - for many people the only way to feel themselves useful in this world is to massage their ego at the expense of others. Even if it looks more and more rediculous with each year.

Absolutely right! Those nasty foreign countries should follow Russia's example of never interfering beyond its borders and ummm err never trying to expand those borders. Why Russia has only gone abroad in in order to help ease a humanitarian crisis like like in Hungary in 56 and the Baltic countries in WWII. Cough cough Russia is well liked and regarded by its neighbors.
Amen

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 21:26
Interestingly, I saw alot of Russians with protest signs in English...

They did it for you of course. So why do you not vote in this poll ? :))

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 21:29
While we are at it can we stop all those ludicrous Russian oligarchs from using the British courts to sue each other.

After all, Moscow has a fully functioning legal system

You know... They didn't trust our legal system.

NotMe
11-12-2011, 21:32
You know... They didn't trust our legal system.

They?

That means you, being Russian, trust our legal system? :7525:

Periwinkle
11-12-2011, 21:33
I am actually kind of surprised foreigners would join this type of protest. It should be about the Russian people who voted expressing their discontent, not a foreigner who did not nor could not vote joining in.
I am of the view they likely did it for the cool factor as well....

As for Mr Zuzoo a bit arrogant post anyhow.

TolkoRaz
11-12-2011, 22:00
Most foreigners went to the protest so they could post photos of themselves on Facebook and show their friends back home how "cool" they are.

Interestingly, I saw alot of Russians with protest signs in English...

That was for the benefit of the Evil Empire's CNN! :tv:

Korotky Gennady
11-12-2011, 22:04
They?

That means you, being Russian, trust our legal system? :7525:

your system ?

I always was sure that you are a russian too. ;)

andymackem
11-12-2011, 22:29
FWIW, this is one of the reasons why I didn't go along. It's not a lack of support for the protest, but in the end it's not my fight. I'll happily put my views (in so far as I can articulate them clearly) into a debate, but when the govt is trying to claim that the entire protest is sponsored by us 'foreign devils' I believe that it would be counter-productive for large numbers of foreigners to attend.

That said, I understand why some of my friends saw it differently and wanted to go along to show their support for a cause they believe in (and not just for the FB photo-op). It's not for me to tell anyone - Russian or otherwise - whether they should or shouldn't go. But personally I don't think a large international presence would further the cause.

Of course, the possibility of running into legal / visa troubles was a significant factor as well. And, less nobly, I was feeling rough after Friday night and slept late!

NLD
11-12-2011, 22:31
Why not? Don't we also live here, and are we not also influenced by Russia's political system? Don't we also pay taxes? We may not be able to vote, but that doesn't mean our voices shouldn't be heard.

The "if you don't like it, go home" argument is a weak one in my opinion. There are plenty of reasons people come to Russia, and if they want to make it their stay (temporary/permanent) a better one, then they have every right to do so.

I also don't like the way the two poll options represent your narrow view of the situation. I don't consider myself a guest here, I'm here to stay for a while, and am planning on taking on Russian citizenship.



Yes it does, but that doesn't give me a right to decide and participate in this country's politics. Why? Because I, first of all, can't have an objective point of view - I didn't grow up in this country, my family does not live here, I have a citizenship of another country, I can always leave.. the people that are voting cannot and they are the ones that should decide, not me or you.

If anything, having grown up in a different country gives you a lot more perspective, about the way things could be. I'm not saying either side is good or bad, but it does allow you to compare.



No, your home is America. My home is Canada. We are guests. Living in a country for 2 years doesn't make it your home and give you the rights to decide for its citizens.

And what exactly are these protesting foreigners deciding? Is it because of them Russia is now suddenly going to have a super awesome democracy like "back home"? If this were a demonstration of only foreigners, they'd probably either be ignored or laughed at.



They have a right to say whatever they think, just like you do. What they do not have the right to do, is to participate in the politics of America. It's none of their business.

Unless they live there and are actually influenced by America's political system. Just like we do here.



Abstract way? For 99% of the voting citizens here, Russia is their home in every way, they cannot leave Russia. Sure, Russia is your home in a way, but you're free to leave at any time, they are not. They are the ones who have no real choice but to live here, so they are the ones who should be deciding their fate.

Just because we have an easier option of leaving, we should keep our mouths shut about our new home? So the more tied down you are to a specific country, the more of a say you have in it? A Moscow student, who easily manages to get a job abroad, has less of a say than a villager speaking only Russian? Just because people have the option of leaving, doesn't mean they want to. I don't want to leave, I do want Russia to become a better country.



I am actually kind of surprised foreigners would join this type of protest. It should be about the Russian people who voted expressing their discontent, not a foreigner who did not nor could not vote joining in.

I disagree. If I were allowed to vote, I would've. And just because my vote wasn't falsified, because there wasn't one, doesn't mean I cannot support the protesters' cause. I'm all in favor of fair elections. I may not take part in them, but I am subject to its consequences.

Bels
11-12-2011, 22:58
I totally agree with you. However there are those who live in Russia of whom are not Russian, who are affected by being in Russia. No! they don't have a voting right in Russia, but yet they are part of Russia as residents, with family who are Russians, and do have the right to vote once they become of age. The children of spouse from foreign parents. YES! the world has a right of opinion no matter where they live.

But the point is that the vast 95% of protesters were Russian, and were in no way influenced by foriegners. They were in fact Russians!! So what on earth is your argument of a few foriegners trying to get a voice in Russia, when foreigners live on deaf ears to what western opinion is.



I know it was officially authorized. I'm saying that foreigners shouldn't interfere in the political processes of a country that is not theirs. That is all.
They have the right to an opinion just like everyone, but they have no right to be involved in Russia's internal affairs.

Bels
11-12-2011, 23:10
But what do you think of the choice to vote in Russia. Aren't you scared of the only other option of the other party? The second choice is a communist party! And they they hate western settlers. You could be kicked out before you manage to get your citizenshio. And I think there could be another revolution with them, attacking those who are wealthy or considered being powerful in the past as being criminal, hence being eliminated or put in prison. Sorry! But the the one and only other option vote looks very scary to me, and they do hate western residents etc. SO NO! Let us stick to the bad choice, rather than a very scary disaster choice. That is why my Russian wife chose Putin's party, not because she liked him, but because there wasn't a better choice. That th e major problem, you have very bad, or you could chose disaster for many individuals. There is no good choice.




Why not? Don't we also live here, and are we not also influenced by Russia's political system? Don't we also pay taxes? We may not be able to vote, but that doesn't mean our voices shouldn't be heard.e liked

The "if you don't like it, go home" argument is a weak one in my opinion. There are plenty of reasons people come to Russia, and if they want to make it their stay (temporary/permanent) a better one, then they have every right to do so.

I also don't like the way the two poll options represent your narrow view of the situation. I don't consider myself a guest here, I'm here to stay for a while, and am planning on taking on Russian citizenship.




If anything, having grown up in a different country gives you a lot more perspective, about the way things could be. I'm not saying either side is good or bad, but it does allow you to compare.




And what exactly are these protesting foreigners deciding? Is it because of them Russia is now suddenly going to have a super awesome democracy like "back home"? If this were a demonstration of only foreigners, they'd probably either be ignored or laughed at.




Unless they live there and are actually influenced by America's political system. Just like we do here.




Just because we have an easier option of leaving, we should keep our mouths shut about our new home? So the more tied down you are to a specific country, the more of a say you have in it? A Moscow student, who easily manages to get a job abroad, has less of a say than a villager speaking only Russian? Just because people have the option of leaving, doesn't mean they want to. I don't want to leave, I do want Russia to become a better country.




I disagree. If I were allowed to vote, I would've. And just because my vote wasn't falsified, because there wasn't one, doesn't mean I cannot support the protesters' cause. I'm all in favor of fair elections. I may not take part in them, but I am subject to its consequences.

BabyFirefly
11-12-2011, 23:14
Okey, now I see how the ideal life looks in the eyes of american studentesses here...

Very good. Very very good.



As I told two minutes ago... Democratic Russia is our common interest. America will get a lot of good things from partnership with new democratic country with a huge potencial for development.


I want Russia to be democratic and develop its potential to the fullest as well; in fact I think 99% of expats do, I love this country and I want to see it be even greater. I just don't feel that it's right for me, as a foreigner who has not been here a long time (yet) to protest. When I marry my Russian fiance, have a few kids here, in short, have my "life" built here to a point where, even if I can't vote, it does affect me, then I'll go protest. But right now, I've been here since June only, I have no "ties" here so to speak... and the truth is, if things were to get bad here, I can very easily leave. IMO one should protest in any foreign only if they have some "roots" in said country; family, a job, properties, cultural ties, or just having lived there a long time. But, I find it wrong that some American students I take classes with, who are leaving in a week, or in May, who don't care about Russia, know little about it, and think it's nothing more than a hellhole, feel that they must "save" the country because Russians are incapable of doing it themselves. I believe Russians are intelligent and perfectly capable of "saving" themselves without the interference of foreigners who have little interest in the country.

Maybe to me it's wrong because I lived for a long time in a country where this same thing happened, and I saw how much it just damaged the protests.

TGP
11-12-2011, 23:19
In another thread you discuss where AndreyS is. Well, he is sick and tired of all these discussions about elections, democracy, bla, bla bla...

He also says that always votes and will vote for Putin. It's his regards to you and his input to the discussions.
When he returns to the forum, you make ask him to make certain that I am saying the truth about him.

NLD
11-12-2011, 23:23
But what do you think of the choice to vote in Russia. Aren't you scared of the only other option of the other party? The second choice is a communist party! And they they hate western settlers. You could be kicked out before you manage to get your citizenshio.

I haven't taken a proper look at the different parties, I heard Yabloko might be a reasonable choice. Now I also heard they didn't manage to get the required minimum of 7% of all votes to even make it into the Gosduma, which is of course ridiculous and a whole other problem altogether.

TGP
11-12-2011, 23:26
Russian equivalent of "democracy" is "äåðüìî-êðàòèÿ". :whisper:

;) :evilgrin:

PeteD
12-12-2011, 00:41
Ok, let’s analogise here… and this may be a little long-winded..
Let’s imagine that you are on the metro, on the way home, at the end of a long day / week. It could be the bus, or Route Taxi – public transport, at any rate…
You see a couple getting on the same bus, carriage, whatever, sitting down next to each other, and talking, quietly, intimately to each other…

What do you think about them?

Anything – not your business?
“nice to see 2 people getting on…”
That you need to watch them – keep an eye on them?
So, you are on your way home, minding your own business, with another 8 metro stops / 25 minutes before you get off, and the couple, who were talking so intimately before, appear to have a disagreement – not that you’re listening to the dialogue (let’s leave language out of this analogy)….

What do you think now?
What do you do now?
Anything? – Interfere?
Nothing? – Not your business?
The most likely outcome is that, if you become aware that there is a potential problem, you will decide to monitor it, or move away. At this stage, there are just raised voices and animated expressions and gestures – no “THREAT”…
Two minutes later, the situation develops (deteriorates) and there is an “act of aggression”

You probably (hopefully) think “why on my bus / metro / Route Taxi – I just want to go home?”, and, almost certainly feel less comfortable than when you boarded the transport.
What do you do?
Get off at the next stop?
Close your eyes and pretend to be asleep?
Interfere – step in and ask the “couple” to desist?
So, let’s assume that the “aggression” was that the female hit the male?
Does this make a difference? – Shouting / arguing is “acceptable”, so long as it doesn’t become “physical”

Does it matter how hard she hit him?
Does it make a difference if it was two females?
Does it make a difference if it was two males?
Does it make a difference if it was the male who hit the female?
Does it matter if one, irrespective of their sex, was physically larger (potentially superior) to the other, whether the larger individual was the aggressor or aggressed?
From a personal point of view, I can imagine “stepping in”, if I assessed the situation to be “perpetually imbalanced” – that is to say, that someone was being physically bullied.

I fully accept that people can, and are, verbally bullied.

But that, in relationships, most people have a choice, even though they don’t like, or recognise the choices presented to them.

It seems natural to me, to think that I would step in to defend a female, instinctively, from a “big thug”, but I would also like to think that I would defend a male from his “ex-sumo-champion wife / female partner” if such were the case.


From a personal point of view, I would have much more difficulty “stepping in” to an altercation between two females, or two males. Does that make my (possibly unwelcome) interjection any less relevant or necessary? Not in my opinion, although, as I just said, I would have more difficulty actioning it!
The point, here, is that we all have our own beliefs, prejudices, strengths and weaknesses, opinions, policies, attitudes, and these are, to a greater or lesser extent, influenced by our upbringing and environment, together with our social sensitivity, awareness and influence. We might all “say” that we would react in a certain way, given certain circumstances, when, with the situation presented to us, we find that we respond differently, and, sometimes surprisingly.

It would also be right to ask (justify) ourselves – What should I do / What “right” do I have to do it?

The “upbringing” is significant, on a local, regional, national and temporal principle. Someone who went through their teen years, during the 1950’s in Texas would recount a very different tale from someone growing up in the same “town” 60 years later – the same applies to different generations of people in the UK, Russia, Australia and the rest of the world.

As transport and communication systems improve, and the world becomes a “smaller” place, migration is natural, both on a survival and an aesthetic level. Humans created borders. These have developed and evolved through our ancestry.

As part of the human race, we (the “majority”) respect these borders, along with recognising out natural right to exist where we were born.

If we choose to migrate, or emigrate, then we should recognise the borders, together with the “local” conditions / laws / practices, which are applied in the places that we move to – indeed – we actually sign a document, on entry, that we will comply with the local laws.

We are all entitled to an opinion.

Our opinion may be more or less relevant given our “status” in the society within which we currently live.

Unless we pledge allegiance to our “current domicile” – whether we have been there 6 months or 6 decades, WE have indicated that WE regard it as temporary. IF we regard it as temporary, then we have NO right to interfere with LOCAL POLITICS.

The Second World War started because Hitler tried to extend his political view to an INTERNATIONAL LEVEL – I am not going to expand on that as it detracts from THIS argument.

What gives us, as individuals the right to interfere / intervene in an “issue” that is national, but not of our birthright?- In 20 years, 50 years, 100 years – we would be accused of “interfering”, which would be true and not constructive. We can’t change history, but we can change the future, and, sometimes, that is best helped by allowing things to develop “naturally” and “natively”.

TolkoRaz
12-12-2011, 01:18
The Evil Empire and its citizens have all too often meddled in other country's political situations and sought to bring about regime change by enthusing and funding opposition groups and the discontented. If Hillary Rodham Clinton thinks that she can instigate another revolution in Russia, then she is a bigger fool than I thought that she is!

Regarding Expats earning a living in Russia going to participate in political rallies, I personally think they need to wake up and smell the Vodka!

They have absolutely no right to demonstrate against the alleged voting irregularities, especially as they don't themselves have a right to vote and are not citizens of the Rodina! :bookworm:

Gypsy
12-12-2011, 02:35
The Evil Empire and its citizens have all too often meddled in other country's political situations and sought to bring about regime change by enthusing and funding opposition groups and the discontented. If Hillary Rodham Clinton thinks that she can instigate another revolution in Russia, then she is a bigger fool than I thought that she is!

Regarding Expats earning a living in Russia going to participate in political rallies, I personally think they need to wake up and smell the Vodka!

They have absolutely no right to demonstrate against the alleged voting irregularities, especially as they don't themselves have a right to vote and are not citizens of the Rodina! :bookworm:

Could not agree more TR. It is up to the Russian people. It is not the place of any foreigner to get involved.

Korotky Gennady
12-12-2011, 03:54
But then who will pay the protesters?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16084743

Hey you ! Where is my money then !?

Korotky Gennady
12-12-2011, 03:59
In another thread you discuss where AndreyS is. Well, he is sick and tired of all these discussions about elections, democracy, bla, bla bla...


. If you... as you yourself said (http://www.expat.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=374861&page=8)...

if you are against democracy in Russia and you're tired and even "sick"... and if discussion about democracy sounds for you like empty "bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-bla-....". Why do you join this discussion and prefer to be sick ? Why don't you ignore it ?

:eek:

Korotky Gennady
12-12-2011, 04:05
You have been registered as paid already.

No, I haven't. It's... It's... Is it you took my money ?....

Periwinkle
12-12-2011, 10:22
The Evil Empire and its citizens have all too often meddled in other country's political situations and sought to bring about regime change by enthusing and funding opposition groups and the discontented. If Hillary Rodham Clinton thinks that she can instigate another revolution in Russia, then she is a bigger fool than I thought that she is!

Regarding Expats earning a living in Russia going to participate in political rallies, I personally think they need to wake up and smell the Vodka!

They have absolutely no right to demonstrate against the alleged voting irregularities, especially as they don't themselves have a right to vote and are not citizens of the Rodina! :bookworm:

So you buy the whole Hilary gave a signal scenario?
It is just a way to try to discredit the protestors.
Calm down off your soap box.

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 10:45
Democracy isn't an american invention. The first time it appeared in the Ancient Greece and Rome... but this fact doesn't make it undesirable for Russia becoz it's an universal value.

.

Wow! Yes, democracy is invention of Ancient Greece and Rome ... with slavery that supported clean and only decent for democratic citizens professions like politics, art and military. but no doubt that this fact makes democracy undesirable for Russia!
Gena, tell me the name of your institute so I would know where I should never send my doughter.

TolkoRaz
12-12-2011, 10:57
So you buy the whole Hilary gave a signal scenario?
It is just a way to try to discredit the protestors.
Calm down off your soap box.

I don't think that HRC triggered the ongoing demonstrations, but she is certainly voicing her support and being mischievous. The US Administration should be very careful given that an unstable Russia is potentially dangerous for greater stability.

From the soap box and to all non-citizens of The Russian Federation - No Vote, No Voice! :11033:

andymackem
12-12-2011, 11:26
From the soap box and to all non-citizens of The Russian Federation - No Vote, No Voice! :11033:

Good, thanks. Go off and pay my taxes for me, will you. No taxation without representation. Sounds fair enough, wouldn't you say? Oh, and that will include sales tax as well as income tax. So I can earn 13% more than you, and pay 18% less when I buy something. And continue with no right to an opinion.

Or you could stop being quite so pious about who has the right to an opinion about the place where they live.

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 11:29
I don`t think that expats that came to live in Russia should have the right to vote, and they also should not participate in demonstrations.
The fact that you pay taxes, call Russia your home, or even have relatives and friends in Russia... is all of no importance.
You have to be a citizen, not a temporary or permanent resident, if you want to vote.
So the message is : if you want to go voting and protesting... nothing is stopping you from getting RF citizenship. That will give you exactly the same rights as all other Russian voters.
Do your home countries allow for foreigners to vote for national elections ???


I think most Russians agree that there was election fraude, and that there were irregularities. Many of them are fed up with United Russia, and voted on any other party (just not an United Russia).
I do not believe that the protesters get massive support from the Russian population, and I definitely do not believe that we are about to see a revolution in Russia.
I got the impression that foreign press (press abroad but also including Moscow Times and Moscow News) are incorrectly portretting the situation.

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 11:32
No taxation without representation.
So you think that this is something like a universal law???


And continue with no right to an opinion.
Who told you that you don`t have the right to an opinion?
You just don`t have the right to vote, and should stay away from political meetings.

TolkoRaz
12-12-2011, 11:54
Good, thanks. Go off and pay my taxes for me, will you. No taxation without representation. Sounds fair enough, wouldn't you say? Oh, and that will include sales tax as well as income tax. So I can earn 13% more than you, and pay 18% less when I buy something. And continue with no right to an opinion.

Or you could stop being quite so pious about who has the right to an opinion about the place where they live.

Are you a Russian passport holder? I suspect not.

If not, its not your issue - let the Russian citizens (and dual passport holders) demonstrate without outside interference.

Its not your country and its not your future, its theirs. :book:

rugbymad
12-12-2011, 11:59
If I was you, I'd be pleased that there were other people supporting the citizens of your country against the gangsters running the place.
In most real democracies, participation of foreign citizens in peaceful, legal protest is not an issue. Just look at the demonstrations by Congolese in London last weekend for example.
If I were you, I'd be a lot more concerned about where your country is heading than what a handful of foreigners are doing at protest meetings. Come the next oil price collapse, Russia is going to be in deeper sh*t than you can imagine.

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 12:01
Come the next oil price collapse, Russia is going to be in deeper sh*t than you can imagine.

we are happy you are not us.
why don;t you take care about your sh**t?

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 12:03
Since I am a RF citizen, I decided to go to the voting station on 4 December.
I still do not have the Russian passport, just the letter from FMS, stating that I have been granted RF citizenship.
In the voting station, I went to the table for voters that live in my building block.
I showed the letter, and asked whether I could vote.
She said I was not on the voters list, so she could not let me vote.
Then I asked her, with a timbre of hope in my voice : `... and what if I want to vote for United Russia ?...`
She, and the other persons, monitoring different building blocks, started laughing.
Finally she said, with a smile : `then also, you still can not vote...`
`All right, see you in March then, when I come to vote for Putin.` I said, and left.
And so, I had a pleasant nearly-voting-experience in Moscow.

Periwinkle
12-12-2011, 12:24
I don't think that HRC triggered the ongoing demonstrations, but she is certainly voicing her support and being mischievous. The US Administration should be very careful given that an unstable Russia is potentially dangerous for greater stability.

From the soap box and to all non-citizens of The Russian Federation - No Vote, No Voice! :11033:

You are mixing two points.... Apparently, you did not notice, I was addressing the Hilary scenario not the non-citizens ie voters protesting. If you saw my post on page 3, you would see I agree that non- Russians ie voters should not have been in the protest.

As for Hilary making comments - do not other countries representatives comment on world events - isn't that what they do ie regarding their posts/jobs:eh: Point being it is part of her job kwim? Is Russia not commenting currently on Syria? Should you slam them for that?

andymackem
12-12-2011, 12:37
So you think that this is something like a universal law???

No, but it's a principle we might want to consider in the 'foreigners shouldn't express an opinion' debate.


Who told you that you don`t have the right to an opinion?
You just don`t have the right to vote, and should stay away from political meetings.

So I'm allowed to have an opinion, unless I happen to want to express it at a legally sanctioned gathering? That doesn't sound much like having a right to an opinion, does it.

@ Tolko Raz. No I'm not a Russian passport holder. I just choose to live here. As I explained in an earlier posting, I didn't attend the demonstration because I didn't feel it was appropriate, but that doesn't mean that it should be made 'Russians only'. After all, anyone who lives here is affected by the government and its decisions, and has the right to make their own choice about how to react to that. Some will choose to go home, some will choose to carry on here regardless, some will choose to whimper on message boards, some will choose to join public demonstrations. It's not that hard to understand.

In general I sympathise with your standpoint, that it's a matter for Russia to sort out for itself. But I'm not going to tell someone who lives in Russia that they shouldn't take an active interest in the fate of the country where they live.

martpark
12-12-2011, 13:12
Are you a Russian passport holder? I suspect not.

If not, its not your issue - let the Russian citizens (and dual passport holders) demonstrate without outside interference.

Its not your country and its not your future, its theirs. :book:

Aren't you the one who likes to tell us of your high adventures as a spy/mercenary/storyteller. What part of Russia are you from exactly?

Your avatar btw is also meddling in another culture/country's affairs.

VictoriaGeld
12-12-2011, 13:22
In my opinion the foreigners as well as Russians should have the same rights to do or not to do something in Russia. In the whole Europe foreigners have the same rights and duties as the country residents and only in Russia the russian people do not like equal rights.

Sorry, why a foreigner should pay taxes like a Russian, but wont recieve any pension etc. I have a lot of examples where you can feel and see the unfairness in Russia.

Thats why I, as a native person coming from Moscow, am wondering about comments in this thread.

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 15:43
In the whole Europe foreigners have the same rights and duties as the country residents and only in Russia the russian people do not like equal rights.
This is not correct.
If you are a foreigner coming from another EU country, you get the same rights as citizens of your host country. You can vote in local elections, but probably not on national elections.
If you are a non-EU foreigner, you don`t have the right to vote.
I think this is the correct approach.


Sorry, why a foreigner should pay taxes like a Russian, but wont recieve any pension etc. I have a lot of examples where you can feel and see the unfairness in Russia.
So, why should a foreigner not pay taxes ???
See it as your contribution to be able to use the metro, the roads, ...
Besides, even before I got my RF citizenship, I was told that I am now included in the pension fund, so that Russia will provide me a pension.
(This will be in 25 years or so, when presumably, the exchange rate will be 25 EUR for 1 RUB.)

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 16:16
Doesn't buying a fare card pay for the metro?

No, the investment in the metro system is payed from your taxes.
The use of the metro (running costs) is payed for with fare cards.

Gypsy
12-12-2011, 16:17
Doesn't buying a fare card pay for the metro?

I doubt it very much. I would think that it is heavily subsidised as are most services provided by governmental agencies of one sort or another.

As that great Republican Oliver Wendell Holmes said "Taxes are the price you pay for a civilised society".

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 16:30
8 million people ride the metro every day. (not including fare hoppers)

That's 224 million rubles per day. They need more than that?

Income will be much less. All pensioners, students, soldiers,... have `lgoty`, so don`t pay full price.
And then, a whole other category of people buy `abonenty` for the whole year.

But, this is just a minor detail and it is taking us away from the original discussion.
It is not because you are a tax-paying foreigner, that you have the right to go out and protesting. You are entitled to your own opinion, but don`t go out and voice your protest.
After all, Russia did not ask you to come over here, did she?

martpark
12-12-2011, 16:42
Income will be much less. All pensioners, students, soldiers,... have `lgoty`, so don`t pay full price.
And then, a whole other category of people buy `abonenty` for the whole year.

But, this is just a minor detail and it is taking us away from the original discussion.
It is not because you are a tax-paying foreigner, that you have the right to go out and protesting. You are entitled to your own opinion, but don`t go out and voice your protest.
After all, Russia did not ask you to come over here, did she?

If a country purports to have freedom of speech, then joining in any legal activity is acceptable. Mr Z was bored and decided to troll for discontent. I think he found some.

bydand
12-12-2011, 16:43
I have read every post in this thread and must ask; how is it wrong, or even inappropriate, for any foriegner to support their Russian family and friends (in a lawful manner) who feel cheated and the need to protest?

Unless of course, Hillary Clinton (hahahahaha) paid them to do so!

In most countries (I hope Russia included) one is free to voice ones opinion even if a foriegner. Voting is of course a privelege, and decidedly different.

SV1973a "After all, Russia did not ask you to come over here, did she?"

For a price, yes, easier than my family inviting me. Nowhere did it say on the invitation "DO NOT SHARE YOUR OPINION ON RUSSIAN MATTERS".
__________________

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 16:53
Are you honestly trying to say that no expats were invited here?

By Russia (i.e. the Russian government) ?
Then I`d say, very, very, very few.

bydand
12-12-2011, 17:01
Korotky Gena,
drtnsnw obviously took the money promised to you by Hillary Clinton, and paid Mr. Z to start this insipid thread. Double agent, enough said.

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 17:05
For a price, yes, easier than my family inviting me.
So, basically, you were not invited by Russia. The organisation or people that invited you, paid some money to some Russian institute that made you the invitation.


Nowhere did it say on the invitation "DO NOT SHARE YOUR OPINION ON RUSSIAN MATTERS".
This does not need to be mentioned on the invitation explicitely. You just need to use you common sense.
The Russian police CAN arrest you at such meetings, and they CAN put you on the plane back home, and they CAN deny you entry to this country again.
And they DON`T need to explain why they do so.

I still stick to my point. Your relatives and friends have every right to go protesting (although I still think that the large majority of people do not back them, even though the elections were messed up). As for you, you don`t have citizenship,.. this is not your country, so stay out of such things.

Gypsy
12-12-2011, 17:11
By Russia (i.e. the Russian government) ?
Then I`d say, very, very, very few.

Sorry SV I think you are wrong. By presenting opportunities for foreigners to come and work here the government is de facto inviting us. If they did not want foreigners here they would stop issuing visas. It is as simple as that.

The Russian government has made exactly the same calculation that every national government does - do we gain more from this than it costs? If Yes then issue visas. If No - don't.

Now - they don't have to like it, neither does anyone else, but it remains true. We have been invited.

Korotky Gennady
12-12-2011, 18:44
Wow! Yes, democracy is invention of Ancient Greece and Rome ... with slavery that supported clean and only decent for democratic citizens professions like politics, art and military. but no doubt that this fact makes democracy undesirable for Russia!

Gena, tell me the name of your institute so I would know where I should never send my doughter.

I think if you state that there is a close connection or some kind of correlation between Democracy and slavery, you shoud direct your DOUGhter just to KGB-school.

She will become Anna Chapman Number Two there.,.0..,


00000,,,

,0..0..0.00 0,,0.0
0.0,,000
0,,0,.
.000,
0,..,,
.

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 18:47
I think if you state that there is a close connection or some kind of correlation between Democracy and slavery, you shoud direct your DOUGhter just to KGB-school.

She will become Anna Chapman Number Two there.,.0..,


.

bad idea to curse my words so far, Gena. Too visible. Such stupidities do not have access to my mind. They have nice choice of other's empty heads.
it wasn't wise for you to refer to Ancient Greece and Rome as examples of perfect democracy. that s it.

MickeyTong
12-12-2011, 18:48
Do expats in countries other than Russia feel they have a right to publicly protest against the things they consider injustice? Would they join any protests in Bahrain or Saudi Arabia?

BrandonL
12-12-2011, 18:57
Do expats in countries other than Russia feel they have a right to publicly protest against the things they consider injustice? Would they join any protests in Bahrain or Saudi Arabia?


It depends, really...that question is far to open ended to answer properly.

for example. if I were to protest in Iran, in a legal protest, I'd probably get killed.

If I were to protest in Egypt, I'd feel safer.

It depends really on what is being protest, the surrounding area, and the general feeling of if I'm safe or not.

Korotky Gennady
12-12-2011, 18:58
.
it wasn't wise for you to refer to Ancient Greece and Rome as examples of perfect democracy. that s it.

I don't refer to Ancient Greece as "perfect" Democracy. No one is perfect. And no society is a perfect one too. Reread my post where I was writting of it. I informed you only that the general concept of Democracy has a greek origin.

Of course there were slaves in Greece but in Russia the Slavery was up to 1861 year when on the West were trade-unions already and in London the metropolitan worked.

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 19:05
Sorry SV I think you are wrong. By presenting opportunities for foreigners to come and work here the government is de facto inviting us. If they did not want foreigners here they would stop issuing visas. It is as simple as that.

The Russian government has made exactly the same calculation that every national government does - do we gain more from this than it costs? If Yes then issue visas. If No - don't.

Now - they don't have to like it, neither does anyone else, but it remains true. We have been invited.

Western companies that are active in Russia, are mainly here because they can do business here. Western companies are not here because Russia has asked them to come. They asked permission to Russia to come.
Not exactly my idea of an invitation.

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 19:08
IOf course there were slaves in Greece but in Russia the Slavery was up to 1861 year when on the West were trade-unions already and in London the metropolitan worked.

and when there was still slavery in States which has been canceled only in 1865, 4 years after Russia.
you see?

BrandonL
12-12-2011, 19:12
Western companies that are active in Russia, are mainly here because they can do business here. Western companies are not here because Russia has asked them to come. They asked permission to Russia to come.
Not exactly my idea of an invitation.


Why did Russia build skolkovo?

Did western companies ask them to build it?

Last I checked, the Russian Gov't built it to attract and to pull western companies, and the brightest minds from other countries INTO Russia.

Also, the people of Russia, actually did ask our companies to come here.

Look at Apple for instance?
Do I need to keep going, or do you get the point?

Korotky Gennady
12-12-2011, 19:15
and when there was still slavery in States which has been canceled only in 1865, 4 years after Russia.
you see?

I see. But it was the afro-americans Slavery. In fact in Russia the Slavery in different forms lasted up to 1956 year. When Nikita Hruschev first time allowed our peasants leave their dwelling place without order or permission. :))))

It's simply ridiculous...

mrzuzzo
12-12-2011, 19:22
Last I checked, the Russian Gov't built it to attract and to pull western companies, and the brightest minds from other countries INTO Russia.

That's not exactly why Skolkovo was built. It was built for 3 reasons:
1) Attract foreign specialists who can mentor and advise Russian specialists
2) Create a Russian research center that would develop globally competitive Russian products based on their research there.
3) Establish new Russian global innovative companies.

Yes, expats are indeed "invited" to Skolkovo, but even then, last time I checked the invitees are still guests.

BrandonL
12-12-2011, 19:23
That's not exactly why Skolkovo was built. It was built for 3 reasons:
1) Attract foreign specialists who can mentor and advise Russian specialists
2) Create a Russian research center that would develop globally competitive Russian products based on their research there.
3) Establish new Russian global innovative companies.

Yes, expats are indeed "invited" to Skolkovo, but even then, last time I checked the invitees are still guests.


You missed my point.

my point is, that SV claims that Western companies, and specialists aren't "invited" here.

I proved him/her wrong.

I mean FFS, YOUR GOV'T BUILT A CITY JUST TO ATTRACT AND INVITE WESTERNERS!

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 19:24
I see. But it was the afro-americans Slavery. In fact in Russia the Slavery in different forms lasted up to 1956 year. When Nikita Hruschev first time allowed our peasants leave their dwelling place without order or permission. :))))

It's simply ridiculous...

so in such countries like States even slavery was better? and afro-american slavery is not slavery for you? hey, do we have afro-american in expat.ru? I'd love to hear the reaction.
and if you refer to other kinds of discrimination let's remember that States got voting rights for females in 1920, 3 years after Russia again.
I still wonder where do you teach? the question becomes really serious.

BrandonL
12-12-2011, 19:31
so in such countries like States even slavery was better? and afro-american slavery is not slavery for you? hey, do we have afro-american in expat.ru? I'd love to hear the reaction.
and if you refer to other kinds of discrimination let's remember that States got voting rights for females in 1920, 3 years after Russia again.
I still wonder where do you teach? the question becomes really serious.


Last I checked some jobs are still "male" only, in Russia, such as driving the metro trains.
Pretty sure that discrimination.

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 19:33
Last I checked some jobs are still "male" only, such as driving the metro trains.
Pretty sure that discrimination.

we were discussing voting rights, Brandon. this is a bit different.

BrandonL
12-12-2011, 19:34
we were discussing voting rights, Brandon. this is a bit different.

I'm discussing discrimination :)

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 19:37
Why did Russia build skolkovo?
Because the Russian government wants Skolkovo to become some kind of Russian version of Silicon Valley. They are hoping that this will give birth to some Russian start ups, just as there have been some succes stories in the USA.


Did western companies ask them to build it?
No, and it is not built for western companies exclusively either.


Last I checked, the Russian Gov't built it to attract and to pull western companies, and the brightest minds from other countries INTO Russia.
You interpret it this way. I say they don`t target western companies in particular.


Also, the people of Russia, actually did ask our companies to come here.
No, they did not. You just want to interpret it that way. Russian customers are interested in western products, and they can get them from Russian distributors also.


Look at Apple for instance?
Do I need to keep going, or do you get the point?
Western companies are here because they want to make money and they can make big money. If there was no money to be made in this country, they would not come to Russia, not even on special invitation delivered personally by Putin and Medvedev together.

So, instead of invitation, let`s say that foreigners here are `tolerated`.
All this, makes me conclude that as `tolerated guests` in this country, foreigners have no place in demonstrations.

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 19:38
I'm discussing discrimination :)

you are just searching for one more space to stick your label. that is why I was hoping to get decent discussion with smb though biased but at least without this favourite approach widespread in your country. but the level of background is amazing for history teacher. no wonder our education is in such an ass.

mrzuzzo
12-12-2011, 19:38
Guys, let's not steer away from the topic.

"Discrimination" and the lack of political correctness in Russia is something completely different and if you don't really like it you're always free to leave and go back to your politically correct country.

I agree with BrandonL that the government stimulates foreigners to come to Russia to work, we can learn a lot from international specialists. However, those specialists are living in very, very good conditions. Not the conditions they'd live in if they were born and raised here, and much better that what anyone can offer them back home.

The reason they have these conditions, is because Russia treats them as guests. If they are treated as guests, they should behave likewise. Period.

SV1973a
12-12-2011, 19:40
That's not exactly why Skolkovo was built. It was built for 3 reasons:
1) Attract foreign specialists who can mentor and advise Russian specialists
2) Create a Russian research center that would develop globally competitive Russian products based on their research there.
3) Establish new Russian global innovative companies.

Yes, expats are indeed "invited" to Skolkovo, but even then, last time I checked the invitees are still guests.

OK, and apart from those companies that came to Skolkovo, which other companies are invited by Russia.
Did Russia contact western companies and say `please come to Russia ?`

BrandonL
12-12-2011, 19:41
Western companies are here because they want to make money and they can make big money. If there was no money to be made in this country, they would not come to Russia, not even on special invitation delivered personally by Putin and Medvedev together.



Let me explain, a bit more.

yes, of course apple wants to make money.
But in order to make money, their product has to be wanted right?
So if the Russian people want to buy apple products and to sell their product here(which they do) then with that, they are saying PLEASE COME TO RUSSIA SO WE CAN BUY YOUR PRODUCTS.

Hence, the people want and are invited us, into Russia, to Sell our products to make money.

BrandonL
12-12-2011, 19:45
NYou interpret it this way. I say they don`t target western companies in particular.



but did they target western companies?

NotMe
12-12-2011, 19:56
That's not exactly why Skolkovo was built. It was built for 3 reasons:
1) Attract foreign specialists who can mentor and advise Russian specialists



Not correct.

To stop or, at least to reduce the brain drain from Russia and at the same time to attract Russian researchers and specialists which left Russia some years ago and successfully work abroad now.

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 20:02
Not correct.

To stop or, at least to reduce the brain drain from Russia and at the same time to attract Russian researchers and specialists which left Russia some years ago and successfully work abroad now.

and thinking deeper - to find ways other than oil as a basis of country's economy.

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 20:03
All Russia did was change the name from slaves to serfs. Not much of a difference. You see?

looking at this bunch of zombi from States who are afraid to think a bit out of their local TV box I doubt you can discuss the issue of slavery at all.

NotMe
12-12-2011, 20:09
and thinking deeper - to find ways other than oil as a basis of country's economy.

This is a subject for another thread. :)

mrzuzzo
12-12-2011, 20:10
Not correct.

To stop or, at least to reduce the brain drain from Russia and at the same time to attract Russian researchers and specialists which left Russia some years ago and successfully work abroad now.

I'm sorry? Not correct? Attracting foreign specialists is one of the key goals of the Skolkovo Foundation. Foreign specialists create and foster local Russian innovative talent development. Attracting foreign specialists is one of the main goals of Skolkovo at this point.

I work for a Skolkovo company.

I'm glad that this discussion is going well with minimal trolling. Very interesting to hear the different viewpoints. Guys, don't steer the topic away to Russia vs USA or discrimination or Skolkovo (there's enough of that garbage on expat.ru already). The topic being discussed is whether and why do expats have a moral right to participate in internal political processes in Russia.

NotMe
12-12-2011, 20:26
I'm sorry? Not correct? Attracting foreign specialists is one of the key goals of the Skolkovo Foundation. Foreign specialists create and foster local Russian innovative talent development. Attracting foreign specialists is one of the main goals of Skolkovo at this point.

I work for a Skolkovo company.

I'm glad that this discussion is going well with minimal trolling. Very interesting to hear the different viewpoints. Guys, don't steer the topic away to Russia vs USA or discrimination or Skolkovo (there's enough of that garbage on expat.ru already). The topic being discussed is whether and why do expats have a moral right to participate in internal political processes in Russia.

Probably priorities has changed now, but when it was at the project level, one of the key goal of Skolkovo was declared exactly as I mentioned.

To attract foreign capitals and experts was also considered as an integral part of Skolkovo's project.

NLD
12-12-2011, 21:30
I'm not sure I'd call this trolling. Sure, to me mrzuzzo's stance was clear from the answers to the poll alone, but he did incite a very interesting discussion, with about 50-50% in favor/against.

I actually think this is one of the better threads we've had here, a lot of heated debate with the obligatory Hitler/nazi reference (and hence here Godwin's Second Law) but still relatively little name calling :)

Korotky Gennady
12-12-2011, 21:33
so in such countries like States even slavery was better? and afro-american slavery is not slavery for you?

hey, do we have afro-american in expat.ru? I'd love to hear the reaction.
and

if you refer to other kinds of discrimination let's remember that States got voting rights for females in 1920, 3 years after Russia again.
I still wonder where do you teach? the question becomes really serious.

Sorry, but maybe someting is wrong with your head ? You don't read my posts but stubbornly you repeat the same thing again and again... :)))

What are you argueing for ?

Do you try to prove that all is okey in Russia ? But it's obviuos for everyone that it is not. Open your eyes and look aroud...

What do the 1920 year american female voting rights have with the absence of any voting rights of russian people up to 1990-1991 years (!) when the first time in russian history there was the direct ellection of the russian president and the russian parlament !?.....

Where did you graduate from if you don't know this well-known fact ? :)

Or you don't know anything about the life in USSR and Tzarist Russia... do you ?

Really I wonder about people like you who tries to find out "chips in other man's eye and doesn't see the log in his (her) eye".

Periwinkle
12-12-2011, 21:40
looking at this bunch of zombi from States who are afraid to think a bit out of their local TV box I doubt you can discuss the issue of slavery at all.

The gulag was a form of slavery - was it not? That affected millions and millions of Russians..... Not too far in the past either.

L'oiseau bleu
12-12-2011, 21:49
The gulag was a form of slavery - was it not? That affected millions and millions of Russians..... Not too far in the past either.

what a stupid ping pong, really. quite boring to talk to people who are sitting and barking in their boxes with a list of labels in hands. I never said that Russia has no deficiencies ad you have to be only yourself Gena to say that. and you are, in fact. i just pointed out that there are no single democratic country in the world despite the attempts to present States as the best example. sorry. very deficient example.
regerences to my head make your arguments even stronger by the way. arguments of history teacher. goodness.
ok as any previous threads this one ended with stupidity,but that is OK. bartenders and loosers always ruled the world - narrow minded have to group to feel stronger, smart people usually stay alone.
But my mission of bringing russian culture vs american narrow mind (or at least of preventing of spreading this disease in my country) hasn't finished:)
good night everybody - I d rather read smth more challenging now:)

quincy
12-12-2011, 21:57
what a stupid ping pong, really. quite boring to talk to people who are sitting and barking in their boxes with a list of labels in hands. I never said that Russia has no deficiencies ad you have to be only yourself Gena to say that. and you are, in fact. i just pointed out that there are no single democratic country in the world despite the attempts to present States as the best example. sorry. very deficient example.
regerences to my head make your arguments even stronger by the way. arguments of history teacher. goodness.
ok as any previous threads this one ended with stupidity,but that is OK. bartenders and loosers always ruled the world - narrow minded have to group to feel stronger, smart people usually stay alone.
But my mission of bringing russian culture vs american narrow mind (or at least of preventing of spreading this disease in my country) hasn't finished:)
good night everybody - I d rather read smth more challenging now:)

Hopefully we can all agree that the law should be equal for everyone, whether living in Russia, Norway, Scotland, Morocco, China, US, Congo etc

Then there is the UN Universal Declaration on human rights, again, to apply to everyone regardless of race, language, religion...

Periwinkle
12-12-2011, 22:28
what a stupid ping pong, really. quite boring to talk to people who are sitting and barking in their boxes with a list of labels in hands. I never said that Russia has no deficiencies ad you have to be only yourself Gena to say that. and you are, in fact. i just pointed out that there are no single democratic country in the world despite the attempts to present States as the best example. sorry. very deficient example.
regerences to my head make your arguments even stronger by the way. arguments of history teacher. goodness.
ok as any previous threads this one ended with stupidity,but that is OK. bartenders and loosers always ruled the world - narrow minded have to group to feel stronger, smart people usually stay alone.
But my mission of bringing russian culture vs american narrow mind (or at least of preventing of spreading this disease in my country) hasn't finished:)
good night everybody - I d rather read smth more challenging now:)
Sorry missed your point as it was not clear and still is not. Your posts seemed to hold a lot of anger and hatred - so just pointing out the things you seem to miss - such as logic...
Name calling is not going to help you make your point - why give blanket insults to Americans? Why bring up history if you cannot carry on a conversation about it? Why are you allowed to mention history and no one else is? You did say we were too stupid to talk about slavery and now you claim you do not want to...
Ho hum

raperak47
13-12-2011, 11:03
I was at the protest. why? I live here. it affects my life as well. my girlfriend lives here its important to and for her. so its important to me. I call this place my home just like Russian citizens.
I have my right to do as I please you don't like it? no one cares, it's my life my choices. I support a fair election as do the protesters. so why should I not support something I support?

Do you have Russian citizenship? The fact that you live here doesn't mean you are entitle or have your own opinion of political parties mainly because you can't vote for any of the parties. You are a guest here in this country and funny thing is you are risking to get your visa or whatever the status you have here void because you are doing something that its none of your business. Want to protest against your government? Go back to your native country then.

No need for foreign paid western intervention. Just think about if you get your visa void and deported how dumb you are going to feel in the plane going back home when you reassess what you were doing just because your girlfriend is against the government and you want to support her.

SV1973a
13-12-2011, 11:15
The fact that you live here doesn't mean you are entitle or have your own opinion of political parties mainly because you can't vote for any of the parties.
Well, I think you can not deny him to have his own opinion... He just should not go to demonstrations and take active part with voicing that opinion. There are plenty of things that are wrong in this country, but as a foreigner you have no rights to start meddling in this...
If however, you do want to get involved, apply for RF citizenship.


You are a guest here in this country and funny thing is you are risking to get your visa or whatever the status you have here void because you are doing something that its none of your business.
Exactly, when he gets arrested, the Russian can just expel him from Russia and they do not have to justify. Just like having a valid visa in your passport is no guarantee that you can enter the country. There may be reasons for not letting you in the country, and the fact that you do have a visa is of no importance then.
Just the same, they can kick you out of Russia for being an `unwanted` element.

martpark
13-12-2011, 11:42
Well, I think you can not deny him to have his own opinion... He just should not go to demonstrations and take active part with voicing that opinion. There are plenty of things that are wrong in this country, but as a foreigner you have no rights to start meddling in this...
If however, you do want to get involved, apply for RF citizenship.


Exactly, when he gets arrested, the Russian can just expel him from Russia and they do not have to justify. Just like having a valid visa in your passport is no guarantee that you can enter the country. There may be reasons for not letting you in the country, and the fact that you do have a visa is of no importance then.
Just the same, they can kick you out of Russia for being an `unwanted` element.

Individuals can go wherever legally acceptable. Talking about his rights therefore is incorrect. You may advise against but he can go there and say whatever he wants within the law.

The thing about being thrown out of the country says more about a fearful government than it does about any individual in the country. Governments don't have the right to throw people, out because they feel a certain emotion. They should follow the rule of law like everyone else. If they are not, you are as vulnerable as anyone else.

mrzuzzo
13-12-2011, 11:53
Individuals can go wherever legally acceptable. Talking about his rights therefore is incorrect. You may advise against but he can go there and say whatever he wants within the law.

Indeed he can, but does he have a moral right?



Governments don't have the right to throw people, out because they feel a certain emotion. They should follow the rule of law like everyone else. If they are not, you are as vulnerable as anyone else.

Not true at all. There is no "law" that says that visa holders can't be expelled without reason. And it's like that in every country with every government. The government can kick anyone who they think is an unwelcome guest out of the country without explanation.

I have a friend who wasn't let into Canada from the USA (US citizen) because he looked suspicious. He is a professor at a US university. Same idea.

SV1973a
13-12-2011, 12:01
The government can kick anyone who they think is an unwelcome guest out of the country without explanation.
This is what I meant.
Russia can kick you out and has no obligation to tell you why they do so.
If you are getting arrested, you may be labeled : trouble-maker.
Enough to put you on the plane.

Imagine that even RF passport holders can experience difficulties at the hands of immigration officers (Kasparov seems to have had an awful lot of problems with his passport), even members of Golos were detained at the airport.
I am sure that foreigners that feel the need to protest, are exposing themselves to such risks.
And for what ??? It is not even their country.

raperak47
13-12-2011, 12:05
Individuals can go wherever legally acceptable. Talking about his rights therefore is incorrect. You may advise against but he can go there and say whatever he wants within the law.

The thing about being thrown out of the country says more about a fearful government than it does about any individual in the country. Governments don't have the right to throw people, out because they feel a certain emotion. They should follow the rule of law like everyone else. If they are not, you are as vulnerable as anyone else.

obviously you read both previous post but dismissed everything that was stated and replied with your own alternate reality.

There is something called law and rules. You follow them or you pay the price if you disobey them.

So to make a dumb point of your statement, I go to NY camp with OWS start to say whatever I want within the law as you said right? Then I get beat up, arrested, pepperspray in my face and once they see I'm not a citizen, guess what? no visa, deported and probably no fly list shit. What world do yo live in? There is not such thing as freedom of speech. If I was the government that GOLOS fake western funded association as they publicly announced they allocated 9M to make sure the electorate process goes on without fraud and stuff I would close that association and deport all of those foreign ppl working for them and put in jail the traitors starting with the director Lidiya Shibanova

NLD
13-12-2011, 20:09
Well, I think you can not deny him to have his own opinion... He just should not go to demonstrations and take active part with voicing that opinion. There are plenty of things that are wrong in this country, but as a foreigner you have no rights to start meddling in this...
If however, you do want to get involved, apply for RF citizenship.

I'd love to, but I can't yet. So I should keep quiet too?


About the visa thing, that's also one of the reasons I didn't go. Not sure what exactly the deal is when you have TRP, but you still do have a visa, and your stay is only temporary.

SV1973a
13-12-2011, 21:30
I'd love to, but I can't yet. So I should keep quiet too?

Yes. That would be my advice.


About the visa thing, that's also one of the reasons I didn't go. Not sure what exactly the deal is when you have TRP, but you still do have a visa, and your stay is only temporary.

Only with RF citizenship, they can not expel you. TRP and PRP can be revoked, and in this country I would not be surprised if they do if you are arrested during political demonstrations.

BrandonL
13-12-2011, 21:35
Yes. That would be my advice.



Only with RF citizenship, they can not expel you. TRP and PRP can be revoked, and in this country I would not be surprised if they do if you are arrested during political demonstrations.


Actually, I did a little research about this, and guess what? you are wrong.
In a LEGAL demonstrations, they actually have no right, to revoke your visa, and cannot revoke it. On what grounds can they revoke it? you act like it's an easy thing to do to revoke it. Like Police all carry around the stamps and the proper paper work, to revoke Visas


Now if you are doing something illegal, that would be different.

soprty
13-12-2011, 22:04
Brandon are you serious bro??? They have no right to revoke your Visa? Brother, I would have thought after being here a few years you would know better. They can do whatever they like as can the any other country! They don't need an excuse dude...

I have a 9 month old baby and to risk being booted out for whatever reason they come up with because I attended a protest for something that is not my business is simply crazy. Am I paranoid? Yes I probably am but I would rather be paranoid and still be here.

I think I have enough crap to deal with between my 2 countries (Italy and the USA) to get actively involved with what's going on here.




Actually, I did a little research about this, and guess what? you are wrong.
In a LEGAL demonstrations, they actually have no right, to revoke your visa, and cannot revoke it. On what grounds can they revoke it? you act like it's an easy thing to do to revoke it. Like Police all carry around the stamps and the proper paper work, to revoke Visas


Now if you are doing something illegal, that would be different.

BrandonL
13-12-2011, 22:05
I'm waiting for the answer of, It's Russia, they don't need a reason!

That's crap, and you know it.

BrandonL
13-12-2011, 22:06
Brandon are you serious bro??? They have no right to revoke your Visa? Brother, I would have thought after being here a few years you would know better. They can do whatever they like as can the any other country! They don't need an excuse dude...

I have a 9 month old baby and to risk being booted out for whatever reason they come up with because I attended a protest for something that is not my business is simply crazy. Am I paranoid? Yes I probably am but I would rather be paranoid and still be here.

I think I have enough crap to deal with between my 2 countries (Italy and the USA) to get actively involved with what's going on here.

Yes, I'm very serious.

Revoking and denying a visa, are two different things.

Yes, countries can deny you a visa, for no reason, but to revoke, it's not as simple.

Sorry to burst your bubble

mrzuzzo
13-12-2011, 22:09
In a LEGAL demonstrations, they actually have no right, to revoke your visa, and cannot revoke it. On what grounds can they revoke it? you act like it's an easy thing to do to revoke it. Like Police all carry around the stamps and the proper paper work, to revoke Visas

There doesn't need to be grounds to revoke a visa. Your visa can be revoked if anybody from the FMS or police feels like it's best if you leave. It's a purely subjective decision as far as I'm aware, and as far as I know it's not difficult to revoke a visa at all. Happens all the time in Russia.

As for "they actually have no right", I'm interested where you found that information and I'm sure we'd all be glad so see the source of it (such as a legal document).

BrandonL
13-12-2011, 22:12
Brandon are you serious bro??? They have no right to revoke your Visa? Brother, I would have thought after being here a few years you would know better. They can do whatever they like as can the any other country! They don't need an excuse dude...

I have a 9 month old baby and to risk being booted out for whatever reason they come up with because I attended a protest for something that is not my business is simply crazy. Am I paranoid? Yes I probably am but I would rather be paranoid and still be here.

I think I have enough crap to deal with between my 2 countries (Italy and the USA) to get actively involved with what's going on here.


If I felt my visa would have any chance of being revoked, I wouldn't have gone near that protest, I'm not an idiot.

Obviously, I felt 100% confident that it wouldn't happen, oh, and guess what, I'm still here ;)

BrandonL
13-12-2011, 22:13
There doesn't need to be grounds to revoke a visa. Your visa can be revoked if anybody from the FMS or police feels like it's best if you leave. It's a purely subjective decision as far as I'm aware, and as far as I know it's not difficult to revoke a visa at all. Happens all the time in Russia.

As for "they actually have no right", I'm interested where you found that information and I'm sure we'd all be glad so see the source of it (such as a legal document).


I contacted, well, I didn't but my students contacted various people at the FMS, and I've talked with various friends that work in the police force, and I was told what I posted here.

I'll see if I can have a friend contact them or find some kind of document stating this.

martpark
13-12-2011, 22:14
Yes. That would be my advice.



Only with RF citizenship, they can not expel you. TRP and PRP can be revoked, and in this country I would not be surprised if they do if you are arrested during political demonstrations.

You should look up Brodsky, Sakharov, et al. They were kicked out with citizenship. They could change the law as they wish, if no opposition is provided, and say all non-Russians out.

SV1973a
13-12-2011, 22:15
Actually, I did a little research about this, and guess what? you are wrong.
In a LEGAL demonstrations, they actually have no right, to revoke your visa, and cannot revoke it.
Are you talking about Russia???
I mean this is the country where right now some people involved in these protests (Navalniy) are serving a 15 day prison sentence for not obeing police orders, where Gary Kasparov can be kept waiting at passport control because of passport issues, where Khodorkovsky is in jail (sentenced twice).
What makes you think that BrandonL is invulnerable.
To make it perfectly clear : in Russia you have NO rights, when push comes to shove !!!!


On what grounds can they revoke it?
They don`t need to give you any reasons!!!


you act like it's an easy thing to do to revoke it. Like Police all carry around the stamps and the proper paper work, to revoke Visas
It is an easy thing. They arrest you, can make up some phoney charges, hand you over to FMS and bye-bye.

martpark
13-12-2011, 22:16
There doesn't need to be grounds to revoke a visa. Your visa can be revoked if anybody from the FMS or police feels like it's best if you leave. It's a purely subjective decision as far as I'm aware, and as far as I know it's not difficult to revoke a visa at all. Happens all the time in Russia.

As for "they actually have no right", I'm interested where you found that information and I'm sure we'd all be glad so see the source of it (such as a legal document).

And likewise, show us a document that says a visa can be revoked without cause. The case You stated before was for entry into the country.

soprty
13-12-2011, 22:16
You didn’t even touch my bubble bro...I think you are way off though!!
Having said that, you are totally entitled to your opinion and if you had more at stake, you might think a little differently.

Peace


Yes, I'm very serious.

Revoking and denying a visa, are two different things.

Yes, countries can deny you a visa, for no reason, but to revoke, it's not as simple.

Sorry to burst your bubble

SV1973a
13-12-2011, 22:18
You should look up Brodsky, Sakharov, et al. They were kicked out with citizenship. They could change the law as they wish, if no opposition is provided, and say all non-Russians out.

That was in the USSR.

BrandonL
13-12-2011, 22:26
My student Tatyana who is a police officer (she was actually at the protest working) contacted her friend who works in the FMS she said

Hi! at the first, they could not take away your Visa before court's decision. than: did you behaved yourself responsibly? if yes, they could not
If not, they need proof for cause to revoke if no proof they cannot revoke!

martpark
13-12-2011, 22:43
That was in the USSR.

And that's the point. Some people are very interested in turning back the clock. That's why some other people are out in the streets. If they can throw out foreigners for no reason, they can throw out non-Russians for no reason. And then? non-Moscovites? Left handed people? People who look funny?

That's why this was said:

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

This man, a Christian theologian, was officially arrested for "not being enthusiastic enough about the Nazi movement" and spent time in Dachau.

soprty
13-12-2011, 22:47
This is like a story I once heard from my cousin's friend's girlfriend's half sister's nephew.

I doubt anyone anyone from the police, FMS or other agencies will tell you that if you attend they will revoke your Visa...it will likely just happen and I hope never to you because Moscow will be way too boring and I will have no one to east nachos with on weekends :D


My student Tatyana who is a police officer (she was actually at the protest working) contacted her friend who works in the FMS she said

Hi! at the first, they could not take away your Visa before court's decision. than: did you behaved yourself responsibly? if yes, they could not
If not, they need proof for cause to revoke if no proof they cannot revoke!

BrandonL
13-12-2011, 22:49
This is like a story I once heard from my cousin's friend's girlfriend's half sister's nephew.

I doubt anyone anyone from the police, FMS or other agencies will tell you that if you attend they will revoke your Visa...it will likely just happen and I hope never to you because Moscow will be way too boring and I will have no one to east nachos with on weekends :D

:D
I want nachos now(

Alas, I can only go by what I've been told, by the FMS, and my friends.
My friends have no reason to lie, and I know if they thought it could just happen that revoking my visa would just likely happen, they would also tell me.

soprty
13-12-2011, 22:50
Dude me too!!!! :D


:D
I want nachos now(

Bels
14-12-2011, 00:45
So back to your question of why expats should get involved in Russian politics? Because they live here, and their family are likely to be Russian, and they have a tougher time living here compared to other Russians, due to this crazy red-tape.


Guys, let's not steer away from the topic.

"Discrimination" and the lack of political correctness in Russia is something completely different and if you don't really like it you're always free to leave and go back to your politically correct country.

As far as international companies go, well@ They are welcome in Russia, as they give good income prospects for Russians. As yoy can see Medvideve has encouraged this move, and why not? Britain welcomes such moves, and why not Russia?IRussians are emplployed from such companies. And if we look at Cadburies and Brooke-Bond for example, they are now controlled by Russians. Unfortunately they do not perform the same trusted quality!

THose specialists, directors or whatever are taking a big financial risk, and don't forgrt that! comfortable conditions they are more likely to have, but yes they are investing, and seeking a big investment.

And yes they are taking a big risk. SO their investments should be appreciated to the common working Russian.
k about me
BOY! I'm gtting back to art in Blender! How about personal achievement rather than being concerned about Russia and the rest of the world. Let us think about us! as individuals. I want to think about me, not Russia or the world. I want my progress, and I think you think the same. So I suggest to focus on personal progress, rather than worry about the troubles in the world.

I agree with BrandonL that the government stimulates foreigners to come to Russia to work, we can learn a lot from international specialists. However, those specialists are living in very, very good conditions. Not the conditions they'd live in if they were born and raised here, and much better that what anyone can offer them back home.

The reason they have these conditions, is because Russia treats them as guests. If they are treated as guests, they should behave likewise. Period.

Bels
14-12-2011, 01:20
Yes! Why so many arrests, in what appeared to be a peaceful non-violent demenstration. I read of more than 1000 arrests. Why were they arrested, when they showed no indication of violence. Yes there needs to be an inquiry and seems very weird to me. of such matters.


And that's the point. Some people are very interested in turning back the clock. That's why some other people are out in the streets. If they can throw out foreigners for no reason, they can throw out non-Russians for no reason. And then? non-Moscovites? Left handed people? People who look funny?

That's why this was said:

"First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me."

This man, a Christian theologian, was officially arrested for "not being enthusiastic enough about the Nazi movement" and spent time in Dachau.

mrzuzzo
14-12-2011, 01:47
So back to your question of why expats should get involved in Russian politics? Because they live here, and their family are likely to be Russian, and they have a tougher time living here compared to other Russians, due to this crazy red-tape.

Expats have it tougher here than Russians? Yeah, ok, sure...

raperak47
14-12-2011, 07:34
If I felt my visa would have any chance of being revoked, I wouldn't have gone near that protest, I'm not an idiot.

Obviously, I felt 100% confident that it wouldn't happen, oh, and guess what, I'm still here ;)

LMAO don't want to be a jerk but yes you are.

You are living in a alternate reality. I wish you good luck in the next protest if you want to join.

I hope no police officer asks you for your documents so you can fulfill your dreams of protesting against a government that you don't even know the reason why you have to and follow the masses like a zombie.

Not wasting more my time reading any other posts.

Happy New Year.

BrandonL
14-12-2011, 08:31
Yes! Why so many arrests, in what appeared to be a peaceful non-violent demenstration. I read of more than 1000 arrests. Why were they arrested, when they showed no indication of violence. Yes there needs to be an inquiry and seems very weird to me. of such matters.

The legal demonstration had no arrest the one last weekend that had 25k people, the demonstrations before were not allowed, and were not peaceful.

ezik
14-12-2011, 10:18
One of the slogans, carried by a Russian voter on the protest was "No representation, No taxation". :) Now, if you turn that slogan around... I think that paying tax, i.e. contributing to the Russian society, at the very least entitles one to have an opinion and the right to express it.
As a Permanent Resident, I'm a bit beyond the stage of being merely a guest. UFMS, after all, allows me to invite guests myself.
My children have a double nationality and will have voting rights as Russians in Russia in the future. My wife is Russian and voted.

Yes, I feel I am 100% entitled to have an opinion about this and express it. Just like Russian permanent residents in my home country would have.

But it's not MY vote that was allegedly stolen. I have no voting rights, so don't think it is at all appropriate for me to participate in a rally like last Saturday or coming Saturday or any future Saturday.

Oh, and I suppose that it's not problem if non-Russians support instead of protest, right? ;)

Почему вы пришли на митинг ЕдРа? - YouTube

FatAndy
14-12-2011, 11:48
I have no voting rights - on federal level, yes. But AFAIR foreign citizens allowed to vote at local municipal elections (rayon/city).

And, if the protest/support is permitted by authorities, I see not so big trouble if PRP holders will participate - most of them are tightly connected to Russia with family, job, friends etc. Frankly speaking, it is already their country too (at the certain level).

If protest or even support is not permitted, or it grows out from the permitted frames, be ready to get some problems. But it's so everywhere, not only in RF. Adult games suppose adult (or close to it) behaviour.

quincy
14-12-2011, 12:58
The gulag was a form of slavery - was it not? That affected millions and millions of Russians..... Not too far in the past either.

Those exiled were probably politically minded, millions of peasants who were too busy struggling had no time for politics

To put it into some context, the British exiled undesirable elements to Australia in the 19th century, the Spanish and Portuguese sent those they didn't like to their overseas colonies. In the Russian/Soviet case exile was probably close to a death sentence

martpark
14-12-2011, 13:36
Those exiled were probably politically minded, millions of peasants who were too busy struggling had no time for politics


Millions of peasants were arrested and died during collectivization. Just like the Red Scare in the US, it had nothing to do with politically minded people but more to do with paranoia and zealotry form the powers that be. Moscow Metro as well as many other sites were partially built with prison labour. Much cheaper for the government to arrest people and use them as workers then to pay them separately as workers.

FatAndy
14-12-2011, 13:46
Much cheaper for the government to arrest people and use them as workers then to pay them separately as workers.
Pls keep in mind, that:
1) Even in this case they were paid (not as much as to free workers surely)
2) Imprisoned labour decreases motivation, so govt kept balance
3) When speaking about Gulag, there were NOT only and NOT so much politically imprisoned, but also imprisoned by criminal reasons.

BrandonL
14-12-2011, 19:34
I was at an pro-immigrat right rally in Washington, DC a few years ago. One of the main topics being protested was the lack of rights for illegal immigrants. Thousands of immigrants, both legal and not, were in attendance at this unsanctioned rally. No deportations resulted.

I was at one in California in 2004 no deportations either.

NLD
14-12-2011, 19:45
Yes. That would be my advice.

Only with RF citizenship, they can not expel you. TRP and PRP can be revoked, and in this country I would not be surprised if they do if you are arrested during political demonstrations.

But is that your opinion too? I agree with the advice, it's Russia after all :), so that's why I didn't go, but my point was that I do think I have a moral ground, and wonder if you agree with that.

martpark
14-12-2011, 22:12
Pls keep in mind, that:
1) Even in this case they were paid (not as much as to free workers surely)
2) Imprisoned labour decreases motivation, so govt kept balance
3) When speaking about Gulag, there were NOT only and NOT so much politically imprisoned, but also imprisoned by criminal reasons.

1) Prison workers paid very little to build a bourgeoise metro. Must be Stalinist humor.
2) people died of starvation, neglect and brutality. Look at gold mining. Motivation was not the main concern when there were millions more to choose from. Prisoners controlled other prisoners to keep everyone happy.
3) that's like saying not all of Pol Pot's victims were innocent. Emphasizing the exception, not the rule.

Really it was about following dodgy dogma. If you tried your best and followed the ever-changing rules, you might be spared prison. If it was snowing or someone woke up with a pain in their neck, you might be breaking rocks in Siberia.

Bels
15-12-2011, 00:48
Yes I go for your opinion. As a resident and entrepreneur I pay Russian taxes. My children and wife are Russian and I financially maintain them fully. I can't vote as a resident, but yes surely I deserve an opinion , just like any other Russian, as after all! The family I care about are Russian.



One of the slogans, carried by a Russian voter on the protest was "No representation, No taxation". :) Now, if you turn that slogan around... I think that paying tax, i.e. contributing to the Russian society, at the very least entitles one to have an opinion and the right to express it.
As a Permanent Resident, I'm a bit beyond the stage of being merely a guest. UFMS, after all, allows me to invite guests myself.
My children have a double nationality and will have voting rights as Russians in Russia in the future. My wife is Russian and voted.

Yes, I feel I am 100% entitled to have an opinion about this and express it. Just like Russian permanent residents in my home country would have.

But it's not MY vote that was allegedly stolen. I have no voting rights, so don't think it is at all appropriate for me to participate in a rally like last Saturday or coming Saturday or any future Saturday.

Oh, and I suppose that it's not problem if non-Russians support instead of protest, right? ;)

Почему вы пришли на митинг ЕдРа? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04PUvUSeKaY&feature=watch_response)

FatAndy
15-12-2011, 09:30
1) Prison workers paid very little to build a bourgeoise metro. Must be Stalinist humor.
2) people died of starvation, neglect and brutality. Look at gold mining. Motivation was not the main concern when there were millions more to choose from. Prisoners controlled other prisoners to keep everyone happy.
3) that's like saying not all of Pol Pot's victims were innocent. Emphasizing the exception, not the rule.

Really it was about following dodgy dogma. If you tried your best and followed the ever-changing rules, you might be spared prison. If it was snowing or someone woke up with a pain in their neck, you might be breaking rocks in Siberia.
As it is a bit off-topic, I change the font.
1) Metro is only one example (if you don't like this Stalinist humor, don't use bourgeoise metro ;)), most funds of the economy made on labour costs were invested into creation of industrial base (industry of A group), BTW helping US to get out of 193x crysis/depression. And not only by prison labour cost - remember of communal funds, when equalized salary was an additional source for them.
2) Yes, they died. If I remember correctly, it was far less than 1M people passed golden mines. And total number of political prisoners from 1921 to 1954 - 2.4M, according to Rudenko report.
3) No, it is just reminder to be a bit more accurate with million-scale numbers :)

sashadidi
15-12-2011, 09:58
If I felt my visa would have any chance of being revoked, I wouldn't have gone near that protest, I'm not an idiot.

Obviously, I felt 100% confident that it wouldn't happen, oh, and guess what, I'm still here ;)
:watching:
:D

FatAndy
15-12-2011, 10:02
:watching:
He has "hairy hand" somewhere in FSB...;) via bribe of course! :D