PDA

View Full Version : how do men feel about dating women who are significantly younger than them



SAV
17-11-2011, 15:01
A lot of men in their forties and fifties start trying to
validate themselves by going out with women who are
significantly younger. It’s the equivalent of those sameage
men going out and buying itty-bitty sports cars with
big engines that make a lot of noise

FatAndy
17-11-2011, 15:05
Exactly. They like these and those, and finally have earned some pocket maniz to spend on... How do they feel? Positively. ;)

bob
17-11-2011, 15:09
A lot of men in their forties and fifties start trying to
validate themselves by going out with women who are
significantly younger. It’s the equivalent of those sameage
men going out and buying itty-bitty sports cars with
big engines that make a lot of noise

sports cars with big engines makes sense to me...but not the younger girls. I like to stick with experience ;)

SAV
17-11-2011, 15:28
And what are you views on long term relationships with these girls? what's the next step? I don't like to dating with significantly younger men

bob
17-11-2011, 15:36
And what are you views on long term relationships with these girls? what's the next step? I don't like to dating with significantly younger men

The next step would logically be finding love, compatibility for a long term relationship.

SAV
17-11-2011, 15:49
and is it possible to have long term relationship with wonen, who are much younger?

bob
17-11-2011, 15:52
I am sure it is possible and there must be hundreds of such examples having found all the ingredients in each other to make the relationship last long despite the age difference.

It really depends on the person, one cannot generalize this subject.

justbe
17-11-2011, 15:58
I think it is normal from any point of view until the age is legal. The only question i have if a girl understands that she is missing out on being with someone who is in the same phase of life that she is. Or maybe not missing. If it is ok for her, why not then?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/23/article-1379598-0BBD737000000578-508_468x584.jpg

SAV
17-11-2011, 16:02
yes, you are right, there’s a younger man looking
at woman , saying to himself, “Wow—I sure
wouldn’t mind validating myself with her!” There’s a lot
of that going on, too, you know. I think,
there’s somebody for everybody.

SAV
17-11-2011, 16:04
thanks fo good picture

Dicorp
17-11-2011, 16:07
It's normal imho.

As long as she isn't just after your cash/assets.

even then, why would you deny sex with a hot young woman?

justbe
17-11-2011, 16:31
thanks fo good picture

You are welcome.

http://www.askkissy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/young-woman-old-man.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Pukirev_ner_brak.jpg/478px-Pukirev_ner_brak.jpg

And check the list:

20 Years Difference

Prince Albert II of Monaco — Charlene Wittstock
Nicolas Cage — Alice Kim
John Rhys-Davies — Lisa Manning
Tony Curtis — Christine Kaufman
Les Moonves — Julie Chen
Stanley Tucci — Felicity Blunt


21 Years

Warren Beatty — Annette Bening
Peter Brant — Stephanie Seymour
Lee Majors — Karen Velez
Robert Redford — Sibylle Szaggars
Jerry Seinfeld — Shoshanna Lonstein


22 Years


Phil Collins — Orianne Cevey
Kevin Costner — Christine Baumgarten
Peter Gabriel — Meabh Flynn
Edward M. Kennedy — Victoria Reggie
Wayne Newton — Kathleen McCrane
Laurence Olivier — Joan Plowright
Carlo Ponti — Sophia Loren
Alan Thicke — Gina Tolleson


23 Years

Orson Bean — Alley Mills
Flavio Briatore — Heidi Klume
Harrison Ford — Calista Flockhart
John Forsythe — Nicole Carter
Frank Gifford — Kathie Lee Gifford (Kathie Lee Epstein) (same birthday: August 16)
Merle Haggard — Theresa Lane
Mick Jagger — L'Wren Scott
George Lazenby — Pam Shriver
Aristotle Onassis — Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy
Sylvester Stallone — Jennifer Flavin
Steven Tyler — Erin Brady
Bruce Willis — Brooke Burns
Bruce Willis — Emma Heming
Bruce Willis — Emily Sandberg


24 Years

Hugh Hefner — Barbi Benton
Judd Hirsch — Bonni (wife)
Rich Little — Catherine Brown
Malcolm McDowell — Kelley Kuhr
Chuck Norris — Gena O'Kelley
Fred Thompson — Jeri Kehn
Donald Trump — Melania Knauss


25 Years

Humphrey Bogart — Lauren Bacall
Robert Conrad — LaVelda Fann
Michael Douglas — Catherine Zeta-Jones (same birthday: September 25)
Richard Harris — Ann Turkel
Benjamin Harrison — Mary Dimmick (He: 62, 23nd U.S. President [married after leaving office]. She: 37. Year: 1896.)
Christopher Knight — Adrianne Curry
Norman Lear — Lyn Davis
Paul McCartney — Heather Mills
Rod Stewart — Rachel Hunter
Mike Todd — Elizabeth Taylor
Bruce WIllis — Nadia Bjorlin


26 Years

Alec Baldwin — Hilaria Thomas
Renι Angιlil — Celine Dion
Charles Dance — Shambhala Marthe
Kelsey Grammer — Kayte Walsh
Mick Jagger — Luciana Morad
Larry King — Shawn Southwick
Steve Martin — Anne Stringfield


27 Years

Jeff Goldblum — Catherine Wreford
David Hasselhoff — Hayley Roberts
Jerry Lee Lewis — Kerrie McCarver
Rich Little — Jeannette Markey
Rod Stewart — Penny Lancaster


28 Years

Grover Cleveland — Frances Folsom (He: 49, 22nd U.S. President. She: 21, youngest First Lady. Year: 1886.)
David Copperfield — Chloe Gosselin
Harrison Ford — Minnie Driver
Nelson Mandela — Graca Machel
Jack Nicholson — Sandra Knight
Kenny Rogers — Wanda Miller
William Shatner — Nerine Kidd
William Shatner — Elizabeth Martin
Alan Thicke — Tany Callau
Pete Townshend — Rachel Fuller
Bao Xishum — Xia Shusian (He: former world's tallest man 7'9")



29 Years

Neil Diamond — Katie McNeil
George Hamilton — Kimberly Blackford
Yaphet Kotto — Tessie Sinahon


30 Years

Buzz Aldrin — Michelle Sucillon
Paul Anka — Anna Yeager
Bing Crosby — Kathryn Grant
John Derek — Bo Derek (Mary Collins)
Frank Sinatra — Mia Farrow
John Tyler — Julia Gardiner (He: 54, 10th U.S. President. She: 24. Year: 1844.)
George Frederic Watts — Ellen Terry (He: 46, British artist. She: 16, actress. Year: 1864.)


31 Years

Eric Clapton — Melia McEnery
John Cleese — Jennifer Wade
Rodney Dangerfield — Joan Child
Robert Evans — Catherine Oxenberg
Dennis Hopper — Katherine LaNasa
Davy Jones — Jessica Pacheco
Martin Landau — Gretchen Becker


32 Years

Billy Joel — Katie Lee
Ed McMahon — Pam Hurn
Geraldo Rivera — Erica Levy


33 Years

Tony Bennett — Susan Crow
Cary Grant — Dyan Cannon (He: 57. She: 24 when first met. He: 61. She: 28 when married.)
Jack Nicholson — Lara Flynn Boyle
George Frederic Watts — Mary Seton Fraser Tytler


34 Years

Charles Dance — Sophia Myles
John McLaughlin — Cristine Vidal
Andre Previn — Anne-Sophie Mutter
Rod Steiger — Paula Ellis


35 Years

Woody Allen — Soon-Yi Previn
Dennis Hopper — Victoria Duffy
Doug Hutchison — Courtney Alexis Stodden (He: 51, American actor. She: 16, singer. Year: 2011, Las Vegas chapel.)
Lee Majors — Faith Noelle Cross
Tony Robinson — Louise Hobbs
J.D. Salinger — Joyce Maynard (He: 53. She: 18. Year: 1972.)


36 Years

Clint Eastwood — Dina Ruiz
Sir Clive Sinclair — Angie Bowness


37 Years

Jim Clark — Kristy Hinze (He: 65, billionaire. She: 28, Australian supermodel. Married: 2009.)
James Doohan — Wende Braunberger
Hugh Hefner — Kimberley Conrad
Rupert Murdoch — Wendi Deng
Des O'Connor — Jodie Brooke Wilson
Patrick Stewart — Sunny Ozell


38 Years

Rupert Murdoch — Wendi Deng


39 Years

Robert Evans — Leslie Ann Woodward
Al Pacino — Lucila Sola
Patrick Stewart — Lisa Dillon
James Woods — Ashley Madison (He: 57, actor. She: 18 when first met.)


40 Years

Charles Bronson — Kim Weeks
Pablo Picasso — Franηoise Gilot
J.D. Salinger — Colleen O'Neill


41 Years

Robert Duvall — Luciana Pedraza (He: actor. Both have same birthday: January 5)
Terry Jones — Anna Soderstrom (He: 62, "Monty Python" co-founder. She: 21 when first met.)
Ronnie Wood — Ekaterina Ivanova (He 61, "Rolling Stones" rock star. She 20, when first met.)


42 Years

Ginger Baker — Kudzai Machokoto (He: 70, former rock star. She: 28. Year engaged/married: 2010.)
Leopold Stokowski — Gloria Vanderbilt


44 Years

Fred Astaire — Robyn Smith


45 Years

Tony Curtis — Jill Vanden Berg


46 Years

Richard Roden — Lisa (wife) (He, Britain's oldest father of twins.)
Dick Van Dyke — Arlene Silver


47 Years

Cary Grant — Barbara Harris
Anthony Quinn — Kathy Benvin


48 Years

Kirk Kerkorian — Lisa Bonder


51 Years

Tony Randall — Heather Harlan


54 Years

Raymond Calvert — Charlotte (partner) (He, Britain's oldest father.)
Hugh Hefner — Holly Madison


60 Years

Hugh Hefner — Crystal Harris


63 Years

J. Howard Marshall II — Anna Nicole Smith (He: 89. She: 26 when first met.)
Glynn Wolfe — Daisy (wife) (He: Guiness world record holder, world's most married man. She: young Asian bride.)


95 Years

Ahmed Muhamed Dore — Safia Abdulleh (He: 112. She: 17 when married.)

DavidB
17-11-2011, 16:39
I think it's much more normal for women to be attracted to successful older men than it is to be attracted to the young men in the following pictures:

20762

20763

20761

justbe
17-11-2011, 16:43
I think it's much more normal for women to be attracted to successful older men than it is to be attracted to the young men in the following pictures

Why do you think so?

20 Years

Lorraine Bracco — Jason Cipolla
Edith Piaf — Theo Sarapo
Helena Rubenstein — Prince Artchil Gourielli-Tchkonia
Norma Shearer — Martin Arrounge
Dinah Shore — Burt Reynolds
Elizabeth Taylor — Larry Fortensky
---------------
21 Years

Barbara Hershey — Naveen Andrews
Lillian Vernon — Paolo Martino
---------------
23 Years

Carol Burnett — Brian Miller
Terry McMillan — Jonathon Plummer
Ivana Trump — Rossano Rubicon
---------------
24 Years

Sam-Taylor Wood — Aaron Johnson (She: 42, film director. He: 18, actor. Year met: 2008, during an audition.)
---------------
25 Years

Joan Collins — Robin Hurlstone
Merle Oberon — Robert Wolders
---------------
31 Years

Ellen Barkin — Sam Levinson
---------------
32 Years

Joan Collins — Percy Gibson
Norma Ferriera — Chris Harvey (British couple. She: 50: He: 18 when met. news story)
Martha Raye — Mark Harris
---------------
34 Years

Gina Lollobrigida — Javier Rigau y Rafols
---------------
39 Years

Edna Townsend — Simon Martin (British couple in 2005. She: 70: He: 31. news story)
---------------
46 Years

Celeste Holm — Frank Basile (her fifth husband)
---------------
71 Years

Wook Kunder — Muhamad Noor Che Musa (Malaysian couple in 2006; She: 104. He: 33)

SAV
17-11-2011, 16:49
and they all are happy?

justbe
17-11-2011, 16:50
and they all are happy?

Ask them. Or any traditional family is 100% happy?

DavidB
17-11-2011, 16:51
Why do you think so?
Because it's unnatural for straight men to worry about makeup and hairspray. Those things are for girls.

justbe
17-11-2011, 16:53
Because it's unnatural for straight men to worry about makeup and hairspray. Those things are for girls.

But it is ok to look good for both men and women, this needs some efforts.

DavidB
17-11-2011, 17:13
But it is ok to look good for both men and women, this needs some efforts.
Sure, but just remember that no straight man would be bothered with hair spray and makeup if he could get women without it. Mature men don't need that stuff, because they have interesting experiences in their lives to talk about. It's enough for them to have neat hair and clean shoes.

bob
17-11-2011, 17:24
Sure, but just remember that no straight man would be bothered with hair spray and makeup if he could get women without it. Mature men don't need that stuff, because they have interesting experiences in their lives to talk about. It's enough for them to have neat hair and clean shoes.

No hair - is it a problem ????

xSnoofovich
17-11-2011, 17:28
Mature men don't need that stuff, because they have interesting experiences in their lives to talk about. It's enough for them to have neat hair and clean shoes.

This ! And to add to that, a nice suit.

SAV
17-11-2011, 17:47
how men distinguish between the marrying tipes and the playthings?

bob
17-11-2011, 17:50
You want all secrets revealed in this thread...??:evilgrin:

I am reminded of a mel gibson movie "what women want"

Victoria 55
17-11-2011, 19:10
You want all secrets revealed in this thread...??:evilgrin:

I am reminded of a mel gibson movie "what women want"
Let's discuss ''what man wants'')
Mature men are generally proud if the girl is quite younger.Young girl is like good car.

justbe
17-11-2011, 19:23
Let's discuss ''what man wants'')
Mature men are generally proud if the girl is quite younger.Young girl is like good car.

:emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn:

Victoria 55
17-11-2011, 19:29
how men distinguish between the marrying tipes and the playthings?
How girl choose the right man?))not wasting time...

bob
17-11-2011, 20:21
How girl choose the right man?))

:emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn:

justbe
17-11-2011, 20:47
:emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn::emote_popcorn:

Hey! Your emote-popcorn is copy-paste!

bob
18-11-2011, 07:05
my post was in reply to Victoria 55's post.

shurale
18-11-2011, 07:52
And what are you views on long term relationships with these girls? what's the next step? I don't like to dating with significantly younger men

You are so wrong!
Catch 'Em Young, Treat 'Em Rough, Tell 'Em Nothin' - YouTube

shurale
18-11-2011, 07:56
No hair - is it a problem ????

Chest hair? Back hair?
----
And by the way, here is some advice on how to get your back hair slicked.
I suppose it must be cool.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070826013521AApbxH5

shurale
18-11-2011, 08:00
How girl choose the right man?))not wasting time...

Marriage service agency? You will get your right man home-delivered.
You can get it done without leaving your house.

Victoria 55
18-11-2011, 10:55
Marriage service agency? You will get your right man home-delivered.
You can get it done without leaving your house.
Oops......You say about your experience)) O,I see. Mu congratulations!
WELL DONE)

justbe
18-11-2011, 12:08
http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/615427_460s_v1.jpg

truthbsaid
31-12-2011, 05:32
A lot of men in their forties and fifties start trying to
validate themselves by going out with women who are
significantly younger. It’s the equivalent of those sameage
men going out and buying itty-bitty sports cars with
big engines that make a lot of noise

I don't know if dating young women, older men are looking for validation. some may have missed the boat and still have romantic notions of starting a family, late in life. The problem is bridging the "age gap" with a younger woman, who is capable of starting that family, with him!

Swordfish90293
31-12-2011, 08:00
A lot of men in their forties and fifties start trying to
validate themselves by going out with women who are
significantly younger. It’s the equivalent of those sameage
men going out and buying itty-bitty sports cars with
big engines that make a lot of noise

Maybe subconscious validation is present, but I find women, beautiful, smart women, of any age attractive. If she's young, beautiful and smart, she has my vote.

...and I prefer a big car...big, with a huge V8, and silent...

Studies have deduced the preference fr younger women is likely rooted in the drive for survival and perpetuation of the species...


http://anastasiasblackbook.com/special_treats/baby-doll/

rusmeister
31-12-2011, 08:18
Hi, folks! Rusmeister here! And ready to have fun applying thought to a question! :D

The title of the thread reveals the first problem. Asking how one feels has come to replace what one thinks. And feeling is not thinking.

But I think Sav has raised a good question. What IS dating? What is its purpose? What is marriage? Is it about adult fulfillment, or is there anything else to it?

"Dating" is a fairly recent concept, replacing courtship. It's part of the larger problem of separating things that were always connected for our ancestors, and for humanity in general.

The object of courtship was marriage, a multi-functional institution found around the world and throughout history. Not only did it provide sexual outlet, it also provided for the creation of a stable social unit - the family - which not only enabled the building of society, but also created loyalties based on vows and blood relations, an older and higher loyalty than that due to the state or one's employer (which I translate as "user"). And of course, it provided for the continuation of the species.

But in our time we see a separation of these functions. The sex act is separated from childbirth, and from marriage itself, and families are broken up via easy divorce and the general idea that marriage is not necessary, vows need not be kept - the shift from a society based on the vow to one based on a much more temporary contract; thus, the very existence of "pre-nuptial contracts", something that our ancestors would pronounce us insane for taking seriously. And that is not unimportant, for we (if our race survives) are ancestors, too. So if we think at all about why our grandchildren should take our ideas seriously, we can see that on the same basis that we ought to take our grandparents' ideas seriously. And like the rest of humanity in space and time, they say that marriage is important, and the object of courtship, er, "dating", is marriage. We are the historical exception, not the rule, in socially approving of sex without marriage or children (separating the functions).

From there, you go to the general purpose of childbirth in marriage. Couples may not be ABLE to have children, but that has always been seen as an exception and a tragedy. But human tradition worked out that two young people would take some kind of vow for life, witnessed and taken seriously by society, and then live together for life. Thus, children were generally born into that stable unit, and certainly in Christendom, the lands that had accepted Christian faith, which spanned from Russia to the Americas, had a mother and a father together to raise them to their majority.

Only we don't have that any more, do we? We don't even see the hypocrisy. All children want to be raised by a mother and father that stay together. That includes us, even if we were not so fortunate. But we, as adults, want to be "free" to do what we want, and so are unwilling to take the responsibility of committing to a woman (or man, for the ladies) for life, even when the going is rough - that is why the vow is there in the first place - we take the vow when we don't need it, to hold us together when we do.

So, how does this connect to old men/young women? Let's see, no family, no vow, no serious prospects of raising children together and being able to participate normally in the child's life, just using the other person - the one for sex, the other for money.
The civilized word would be "reprehensible", the emotive word "disgusting", to people gifted with the common sense our ancestors largely had, which we have been deprived of. The power of that painting posted above: "Неравный брак" lies in its appeal to our sense of shame - that it IS shameful, but if we have lost that sense, we no longer feel the shame. We might recover that sense, if we began to think. And that is why the OP title is misnamed. We feel where we should be thinking, and so, cease to even feel.

yakspeare
31-12-2011, 08:24
I am generally attracted to older women, they bring a levelof sophistication and class and because i look older. My ex wife was five years older and my last girlfrend inaustralia was 8 years older.

But now i am 36 and i want kids and possibly more than one. So a few years younger than i would be ideal. Funny thing is girls my age are almost never attracted to me...either older or much, much younger. I have had several 22 year old girlfriends and romances, but that isnt because i am chasing those in that age group. Here in Russia it seems quite normal for such an age gap, and many girls complain about the immaturity of boys their age ad so prefer older. Who am i to complain?

Virtuoso
31-12-2011, 09:11
A lot of men in their forties and fifties start trying to
validate themselves by going out with women who are
significantly younger. It’s the equivalent of those sameage
men going out and buying itty-bitty sports cars with
big engines that make a lot of noise

This is Russian national character, I think. The norm. Have you read their literature?

Strider
31-12-2011, 13:29
http://d37nnnqwv9amwr.cloudfront.net/entries/icons/original/000/000/005/pedobear.jpg

MashaSashina
31-12-2011, 17:43
Here in Russia it seems quite normal for such an age gap
Does it seem really abnormal outside of Russia?
Just curious. ))

yakspeare
31-12-2011, 18:07
Does it seem really abnormal outside of Russia?
Just curious. ))

Yes absolutely...in australia you would be called a cradle snatcher( stealer of babies) or thought of as a sugar daddy(sponsor) if you had a girl more than about five years younger. It happens but people often look down on it and make snide comments. A lot of old men marry young fillipino women and people dont think much of these relationships.

robertmf
31-12-2011, 18:35
Yes absolutely...in australia you would be called a cradle snatcher( stealer of babies)

"craddle robber" here in the US :celebrate:

Other than 'sugar daddy' motives, it is generally accepted that the man be 'established' before marriage, and so it is natural for the man to be a bit older than the woman.

... I thought the dingo stole the baby ...

:10518::celebrate::shamp::shamp::drink:

bydand
31-12-2011, 19:35
As for me, I (an American) have been married to my Russian wife for 12 years. She is four years older than me. More wisdom seems to come with maturity.

As for fast cars, I used to enjoy fast motorcycles. Now I have neither, because my wife would rather keep me alive. I'm 55.

Any teenage girls out there interested?

MashaSashina
31-12-2011, 19:35
Yes absolutely...in australia you would be called a cradle snatcher( stealer of babies) or thought of as a sugar daddy(sponsor) if you had a girl more than about five years younger. It happens but people often look down on it and make snide comments. A lot of old men marry young fillipino women and people dont think much of these relationships.
Hm... 10 years older men for me are like persons of the same age, 5 years of difference is just nothing. ))
According to my experience 13-20 years of gap is ok for me (well, 20 is a bit too much, i felt and understood that i was younger, but he looked really good) and i've never got anything more expensive than flowers or a dinner in a restaurant from a man (and i earn enough to go out sometimes and ready to pay for myself and for the man if needed) :) So no money reasons for me.
I don't know if it is literature indeed or personal experience, or my father's picture (he was 49 when i was born) but yes, 40+ men are more attractive for me.

yakspeare
31-12-2011, 19:40
Hm... 10 years older men for me are like persons of the same age, 5 years of difference is just nothing. ))
According to my experience 13-20 years of gap is ok for me (well, 20 is a bit too much, i felt and understood that i was younger, but he looked really good) and i've never got anything more expensive than flowers or a dinner in a restaurant from a man (and i earn enough to go out sometimes and ready to pay for myself and for the man if needed) :) So no money reasons for me.
I don't know if it is literature indeed or personal experience, or my father's picture (he was 49 when i was born) but yes, 40+ men are more attractive for me.

Great. if you are out of luck, look me up in four years. :)

Jack17
31-12-2011, 19:50
Masha, don't waste your time on Yaks; he's far too young for you. I, on the other hand . . .

What's all the hand wringing and moralizing about on this subject? If it feels good, do it; if it doesn't, leave it alone. As for what other people might think . . . PA-LEASE!

yakspeare
31-12-2011, 19:59
Masha, don't waste your time on Yaks; he's far too young for you. I, on the other hand . . .

What's all the hand wringing and moralizing about on this subject? If it feels good, do it; if it doesn't, leave it alone. As for what other people might think . . . PA-LEASE!

Jack is old enough to have a daughter of suitable age for a "young" Australian...I think he is holding out on us....I realize Australia doesnt quite have the special relationship that you Americans seek, but we do like to follow you around everywhere.

MashaSashina
31-12-2011, 20:10
Jack is old enough to have a daughter of suitable age for a "young" Australian...I think he is holding out on us....I realize Australia doesnt quite have the special relationship that you Americans seek, but we do like to follow you around everywhere.
Suitable age in Australia or in Russia? :)))
Jack thank you, I don't really care of what people may think, I just wanted (maybe) to tell you, men, that if 20 year old (or 20 years younger) girl looks at you with shiny and happy eyes it doesn't necessary mean she wants your money, it can be love, desire caused by your personality and the way you look. :)

Jack17
31-12-2011, 20:15
Carpe diem!

robertmf
31-12-2011, 20:33
(and i earn enough to go out sometimes and ready to pay for myself and for the man if needed) :) So no money reasons for me.
I don't know if it is literature indeed or personal experience, or my father's picture (he was 49 when i was born) but yes, 40+ men are more attractive for me.

:idea: Can we get married tomorrow :question:




:shamp::celebrate::drink::shamp::shamp:

vovik01
31-12-2011, 20:43
"Мужчине легче отказаться от 20-летней связи, чем от связи с 20-летней!"
Sorry for russian lang...I'm to lazy to translate :-) Use Google translate:-)

vovik01
31-12-2011, 20:50
:idea: Can we get married tomorrow :question:




:shamp::celebrate::drink::shamp::shamp:

Man, you can't! :-) langley rules:-))) Or quantico rules :-) I don't know :-) She is Russian:-)))

rusmeister
31-12-2011, 21:17
Masha, don't waste your time on Yaks; he's far too young for you. I, on the other hand . . .

What's all the hand wringing and moralizing about on this subject? If it feels good, do it; if it doesn't, leave it alone. As for what other people might think . . . PA-LEASE!

Well, as for that simple philosophy, it is enough to point out that some people feel exquisite pleasure in skinning a cat, or maybe in torturing you. But hey, if it feels good, let 'em do it!

Is there a hand-wringing emoticon so I can use it if I actually do it?

Oh yeah - Happy New Year!!! :D

robertmf
31-12-2011, 21:49
"Мужчине легче отказаться от 20-летней связи, чем от связи с 20-летней!"


Мужчины любят обмен 40 на два двадцать нечто.

:whisper: Men like to exchange a 40 for two 20s.

vovik01
31-12-2011, 21:57
Мужчины любят обмен 40 на два двадцать нечто.

:whisper: Men like to exchange a 40 for two 20s.



So, Rob. tell me, quantico or langley ? :-) I have highest security clearance:-)))

Jack17
01-01-2012, 00:34
Well, as for that simple philosophy, it is enough to point out that some people feel exquisite pleasure in skinning a cat, or maybe in torturing you. But hey, if it feels good, let 'em do it!

Is there a hand-wringing emoticon so I can use it if I actually do it?

Oh yeah - Happy New Year!!! :D
Спасибо и С новым годом отец.

robertmf
01-01-2012, 04:40
So, Rob. tell me, quantico or langley ? :-) I have highest security clearance:-)))

Fortunately neither !-:celebrate:

Swordfish90293
01-01-2012, 04:43
As for me, I (an American) have been married to my Russian wife for 12 years. She is four years older than me. More wisdom seems to come with maturity.

As for fast cars, I used to enjoy fast motorcycles. Now I have neither, because my wife would rather keep me alive. I'm 55.

Any teenage girls out there interested?

Men with wives older than themselves die sooner than the norm. See Max Planck...

FreeZe
05-01-2012, 18:46
"I want a baby. But it must be a girl, and over 18"
XD

privet2009
05-01-2012, 23:32
A lot of men in their forties and fifties start trying to
validate themselves by going out with women who are
significantly younger

I can't agree here.

'Validation' implies some sort of insecurity.

Many guys I know in Moscow over say 50 dating girls in their early 20's are pretty far from insecure.

Younger women prefer older men.

TolkoRaz
05-01-2012, 23:50
Younger women prefer older men.

Of course, they do! :book: How many men do you know who are dating or married to an older woman? :10310:

Jack17
05-01-2012, 23:58
I must say, this is perhaps the loopiest thread I've read in a long time. It's like posing the question: "How do men feel about buying a winning multi-million dollar lotto ticket?"

The simple answer to both questions is: Pretty darn good.

TolkoRaz
06-01-2012, 01:19
"How do men feel about buying a winning multi-million dollar lotto ticket?"
.

It would certainly cost less than running a very young lady! ;)

But, may be a winning ticket is a precursor and a necessity prior to searching for a young lady! ;)

FreeZe
06-01-2012, 02:23
Younger women prefer older men.
The answer is here:

It would certainly cost less than running a very young lady! ;)

MashaSashina
06-01-2012, 21:35
Of course, they do! :book: How many men do you know who are dating or married to an older woman? :10310:
Young men like older women ))) I met some. their explanation mostly was "I like her because she is smart". Touching, isn't it? :)

TolkoRaz
06-01-2012, 22:19
Young men like older women ))) I met some. their explanation mostly was "I like her because she is smart". Touching, isn't it? :)#

I suppose wise women find younger men :)

Some say that wise men make the best husbands / partners, but I would suggest that wise men don't get married! ;)

Victoria 55
06-01-2012, 23:09
#

I suppose wise women find younger men :)

Some say that wise men make the best husbands / partners, but I would suggest that wise men don't get married! ;)
O,yes...and spending all his time chatting in the Internet)It is so wise behaviour.Well done!!!

rusmeister
07-01-2012, 08:53
I must say, this is perhaps the loopiest thread I've read in a long time. It's like posing the question: "How do men feel about buying a winning multi-million dollar lotto ticket?"

The simple answer to both questions is: Pretty darn good.
I don't think it is the same thing.
It's as if everyone is looking at the relationship as short-term: the man gets his sex, the woman her money....
It doesn't deal with the idea of being bound together for life, or the idea of having and raising children together - the foundational purposes of marriage everywhere. And we encounter serious problems with significant age differences, especially of twenty+ years. As I think I said, we DO react with indignation to the painting "Неравный брак" (An Unequal Marriage") and with good reason.

MashaSashina
07-01-2012, 12:22
I don't think it is the same thing.
It's as if everyone is looking at the relationship as short-term: the man gets his sex, the woman her money....
It doesn't deal with the idea of being bound together for life, or the idea of having and raising children together - the foundational purposes of marriage everywhere. And we encounter serious problems with significant age differences, especially of twenty+ years. As I think I said, we DO react with indignation to the painting "Неравный брак" (An Unequal Marriage") and with good reason.
May the foundational purposes of marriage get changed? Our planet is overpopulated already, single parents can bring their children up if needed...
Moral is a tool which is always adjusted (being late though) to existence.

TolkoRaz
07-01-2012, 18:24
O,yes...and spending all his time chatting in the Internet)It is so wise behaviour.Well done!!!

Its safer on the wallet and I can leave the toilet seat up, and dirty socks scattered all around the floor! :p

Victoria 55
07-01-2012, 20:16
Its safer on the wallet and I can leave the toilet seat up, and dirty socks scattered all around the floor! :p
Sorry,what do you mean? The toilet seat and dirty socks are the best decoration of life,right? Something else?

Jack17
07-01-2012, 20:18
I don't think it is the same thing.
It's as if everyone is looking at the relationship as short-term: the man gets his sex, the woman her money....
It doesn't deal with the idea of being bound together for life, or the idea of having and raising children together - the foundational purposes of marriage everywhere. And we encounter serious problems with significant age differences, especially of twenty+ years. As I think I said, we DO react with indignation to the painting "Неравный брак" (An Unequal Marriage") and with good reason.
Отец спасибо

TolkoRaz
07-01-2012, 20:28
Sorry,what do you mean? The toilet seat and dirty socks are the best decoration of life,right? Something else?

OK, I can leave the lid off the tooth paste tube and can have a fridge full of Beer and Vodka - slimming drinks and salads are banned! ;)

Victoria 55
07-01-2012, 23:26
OK, I can leave the lid off the tooth paste tube and can have a fridge full of Beer and Vodka - slimming drinks and salads are banned! ;)
"slimming drinks"- what is it?
What wrong with salads? If you don't like it,don't eat them.
"a fridge full of Beer and Vodka"-does it really worth it?

robertmf
07-01-2012, 23:32
"slimming drinks"- what are they ?

What is wrong with salads? If you don't like it,don't eat rabbit food.

"a fridge full of Beer and Vodka"- is it really worth it?

Yes. :devil: (except for the beer)

"slimming drinks" are diet sodas/colas. 0 carb drinks.

Victoria 55
07-01-2012, 23:39
Yes. :devil: (except for the beer)

"slimming drinks" are diet sodas/colas. 0 carb drinks.
I know the meaning.
Just a joke.I have never drunk it,no diet.

robertmf
07-01-2012, 23:47
I know the meaning.
Just a joke.I have never drunk it,no diet.

польная :question:



:celebrate::10518:

Victoria 55
07-01-2012, 23:55
польная :question:



:celebrate::10518:
Nope/nope/nope.
"полная" ,no "польная".

MashaSashina
08-01-2012, 00:12
OK, I can leave the lid off the tooth paste tube and can have a fridge full of Beer and Vodka - slimming drinks and salads are banned! ;)
Modest needs you have...

mikegulf
08-01-2012, 04:21
how do men feel about dating women who are significantly younger than them?


I feel absolutely fine with it tyvm!!!! lol

rusmeister
08-01-2012, 05:52
May the foundational purposes of marriage get changed? Our planet is overpopulated already, single parents can bring their children up if needed...
Moral is a tool which is always adjusted (being late though) to existence.

A purpose is a thing that is purported. By whom? Who purposes to change marriage, and why? The most common reason I know of is human selfishness and lust, a desire to satisfy sexual urges while eliminating all consideration of what they are for and what they create. Marriage creates the family, which in turn makes civilization possible. Its elimination or radical redefinition results in social anarchy.
I don't know that our planet IS overpopulated - at any rate, anyone who says that it is ought to offer up their own "seat on the boat" first. The idea of overpopulation is an elitest one that always seeks to eliminate other's lives, never one's own. Anyone who knows Malthus (whose assured prediction of overpopulation by the end of the 19th century proved to be simply anti-life) and Dickens knows that the words of Malthus come out of the lips of Ebenezer Scrooge. ("If they are going to die, they had better do it, and reduce the surplus population!")

Saying morality is a tool is like saying oxygen is a tool. If we adjust oxygen levels beyond a certain range we shall, as GK Chesterton once put it, soon find the defects of that cheery philosophy. So it is with morality.
We advocate freedom for adults to do whatever they want, forgetting how desperately we ourselves as children needed (and sometimes even wanted) a stable family of mother and father that would not disintegrate tomorrow. In our selfishness we demand that freedom to not be bound and spit on our children (and on ourselves as children, if only we could see that). How tragic that the children know better than their parents!

TolkoRaz
08-01-2012, 12:47
Modest needs you have...

Modest, but Extravagant! :farout:

FatAndy
08-01-2012, 15:00
Its safer on the wallet and I can leave the toilet seat up, and dirty socks scattered all around the floor! :p

Fully agree about wallet and especially about socks, but keeping toilet seat and cover down, according to oriental feng-shui rules, prevents money leakage from the house ;).



OK, I can leave the lid off the tooth paste tube and can have a fridge full of Beer and Vodka - slimming drinks and salads are banned! ;)
You've forgot about salo and mayo. :D

MashaSashina
08-01-2012, 17:06
A purpose is a thing that is purported. By whom? Who purposes to change marriage, and why? The most common reason I know of is human selfishness and lust, a desire to satisfy sexual urges while eliminating all consideration of what they are for and what they create. Marriage creates the family, which in turn makes civilization possible. Its elimination or radical redefinition results in social anarchy.
I don't know that our planet IS overpopulated - at any rate, anyone who says that it is ought to offer up their own "seat on the boat" first. The idea of overpopulation is an elitest one that always seeks to eliminate other's lives, never one's own. Anyone who knows Malthus (whose assured prediction of overpopulation by the end of the 19th century proved to be simply anti-life) and Dickens knows that the words of Malthus come out of the lips of Ebenezer Scrooge. ("If they are going to die, they had better do it, and reduce the surplus population!")

Saying morality is a tool is like saying oxygen is a tool. If we adjust oxygen levels beyond a certain range we shall, as GK Chesterton once put it, soon find the defects of that cheery philosophy. So it is with morality.
We advocate freedom for adults to do whatever they want, forgetting how desperately we ourselves as children needed (and sometimes even wanted) a stable family of mother and father that would not disintegrate tomorrow. In our selfishness we demand that freedom to not be bound and spit on our children (and on ourselves as children, if only we could see that). How tragic that the children know better than their parents!
How do you know that the current marriage model is the right one? How about old good times of "свальный грех"? Who proposed to change your life? Why don't men have to die at their 20 in some lion's teeth? I don't know about what to argue here, it's just easier to survive now, we don't need to fight for food and ostracism is not the scariest punishment any more.
And I'm sure that exploitation makes civilization possible, not a family. Which civilization is created by happy families? Just curious.
When people eat each other cannibalism was moral, during wars killing is moral, there are still differences in morals between different peoples (revenge, relation to women, to children or even animals, to property), I think i'm pretty sure morality IS a tool.
I'm not going to decide who should live and who should die to create the new happy society, just when i was young and curious I read some books about ethology and what i remember are graphs demonstrated the exponential growth of population. And the books said nothing about necessity of man's interference to a process of population decrease, nature will do it by itself: not enough food, diseases, aggressiveness etc (as I remember there was a figure about 10 mln who dies of hungriness every year, but it happens of course somewhere far away).
I usually don't argue with people about their beliefs, have no idea what happened to me, may it's be too long holidays. :))) And sorry for my english which is too poor for a topic like this (morality etc, not old men's needs) :)
So dear Rusmeister if you like to believe that changing of family is really problem humanity is faced now and spoiled young women need money and nothing more, that's ok (though not the truth) :)

Victoria 55
08-01-2012, 17:29
Fully agree about wallet and especially about socks, but keeping toilet seat and cover down, according to oriental feng-shui rules, prevents money leakage from the house ;).



You've forgot about salo and mayo. :D
I'm addicted to salo.....and mayo....I must be a man))

Victoria 55
08-01-2012, 17:40
How do you know that the current marriage model is the right one? How about old good times of "свальный грех"? Who proposed to change your life? Why don't men have to die at their 20 in some lion's teeth? I don't know about what to argue here, it's just easier to survive now, we don't need to fight for food and ostracism is not the scariest punishment any more.
And I'm sure that exploitation makes civilization possible, not a family. Which civilization is created by happy families? Just curious.
When people eat each other cannibalism was moral, during wars killing is moral, there are still differences in morals between different peoples (revenge, relation to women, to children or even animals, to property), I think i'm pretty sure morality IS a tool.
I'm not going to decide who should live and who should die to create the new happy society, just when i was young and curious I read some books about ethology and what i remember are graphs demonstrated the exponential growth of population. And the books said nothing about necessity of man's interference to a process of population decrease, nature will do it by itself: not enough food, diseases, aggressiveness etc (as I remember there was a figure about 10 mln who dies of hungriness every year, but it happens of course somewhere far away).
I usually don't argue with people about their beliefs, have no idea what happened to me, may it's be too long holidays. :))) And sorry for my english which is too poor for a topic like this (morality etc, not old men's needs) :)
So dear Rusmeister if you like to believe that changing of family is really problem humanity is faced now and spoiled young women need money and nothing more, that's ok (though not the truth) :)
"Why don't men have to die at their 20 in some lion's teeth?" - we have much more illnesses instead of lions.
"spoiled young women"?- what about spoiled men who prefer free relationships?
I've read here one proposal.One girl said- she is agree to pay for her man.Is it normal?Maybe life has changed so much?

TolkoRaz
08-01-2012, 18:59
....I must be a man))

Nothing wrong in that! :p

MashaSashina
08-01-2012, 19:47
"Why don't men have to die at their 20 in some lion's teeth?" - we have much more illnesses instead of lions.
"spoiled young women"?- what about spoiled men who prefer free relationships?
I've read here one proposal.One girl said- she is agree to pay for her man.Is it normal?Maybe life has changed so much?
Frankly speaking I'm not a specialist, but if we can trust wikipedia it still says that current world average life expectancy at birth is 67 years (2010) and it was never higher than 40 till early 20-th Century. It hints somehow that medicine level and life quality (regarding to health care at least) changed. ))
I have nothing to say about spoiled young men. Free relationships seem to be a little bit strange choice for them (cause i think it's harder for men than for women to keep the stand on earth and family might be a good way to bring some sense into the life, but i may be mistaken). Though as we can see from TolkoRaz's needs men ARE strange. :shhhhhh: No offense, TolkoRaz, it's just a joke. :))))
About paying for the man... I think everyone can be in trouble. ) I've been. ) And now income says nothing about a person, I earn more than for example my friend who works in fire rescuing, and I believe more than most of doctors in state hospitals (and one of them saved me from a foot amputation some month ago) and I think i can continue the list of worthy people who are now outsiders in this world of money. :)

Victoria 55
08-01-2012, 19:56
Frankly speaking I'm not a specialist, but if we can trust wikipedia it still says that current world average life expectancy at birth is 67 years (2010) and it was never higher than 40 till early 20-th Century. It hints somehow that medicine level and life quality (regarding to health care at least) changed. ))
I have nothing to say about spoiled young men. Free relationships seem to be a little bit strange choice for them (cause i think it's harder for men than for women to keep the stand on earth and family might be a good way to bring some sense into the life, but i may be mistaken). Though as we can see from TolkoRaz's needs men ARE strange. :shhhhhh: No offense, TolkoRaz, it's just a joke. :))))
About paying for the man... I think everyone can be in trouble. ) I've been. ) And now income says nothing about a person, I earn more than for example my friend who works in fire rescuing, and I believe more than most of doctors in state hospitals (and one of them saved me from a foot amputation some month ago) and I think i can continue the list of worthy people who are now outsiders in this world of money. :)
"i earn enough to go out sometimes and ready to pay for myself and for the man if needed"-is it about just male friend?.....
I didn't say that you told about young spoiled men.Just many people blame only woman,but forget about own sins.What about men?New topic?

yakspeare
08-01-2012, 20:01
I find it amusing that an orthodox person would have a problem with large age gaps.

According to their beliefs, there once was a man who married an already pregnant woman. Supposedly he was like a father figure to her and the age difference was vast so they didn't have sex after the married. They were very proud of their little boy and the step father apparently did a pretty good job. the young boy grew in influence, until he was accused of blashemy and nailed to a cross.

MashaSashina
08-01-2012, 20:22
"i earn enough to go out sometimes and ready to pay for myself and for the man if needed"-is it about just male friend?.....
I didn't say that you told about young spoiled men.Just many people blame only woman,but forget about own sins.What about men?New topic?
Hm... Even though i'm ready to pay for a man i can't remember if i ever did. :))) No, it's not just about male friend, but all my female friends earn about as much as i do besides one girl and yes, i'm ready to pay for her. But people mostly don't feel comfortable about this, so I just try to choose less expensive place or just go for a walk or meet at my place or any other cheap option for meeting. :)) I have no aim to pay for somebody, just to try to make everyone feels ok.
And about spoiled men... I always find what i need at a time, spoiled men when i want to have fun and they are absolutely out of my interest if i'm in a serious mood. :)) i think it works for men also: if you have nothing to offer but money i'll definitely find somebody who need money and nothing more. :) So i actually don't believe in spoiled people of both sexes. :))

TolkoRaz
08-01-2012, 20:45
IMHO, men should generally pay for the ladies when out painting the town red. :book:

However, in long term relationships, there is no harm for the lady to occasionally dip her hand into her purse and pay for the odd delight.

A perfect example might be, he pays for the lunches and dinners, whilst she pays for the somewhat less expensive breakfasts :)

TolkoRaz
08-01-2012, 21:13
I can eat a pretty big breakfast...

The use of the word 'pretty' scares me! :clown: I can cook a mighty ugly breakfast! :p

Jack17
08-01-2012, 21:20
Actually Rus, I'm nearly as conservative as you. I believe that the primary purpose of marriage is to secure the next generation in the best possible manner. Children most definitely need a loving mother and father. Most men, who are only interested in sex, aren't going to marry their sexual partner, regardless of his or her age. That said, one reason a May - November marriage may work is the disparity in reproductive years between men and women. A man in his fifties is still fertile, while most women are not. Further, men, if they are healthy and not addicts or alcoholics, can live long enough today until their children are grown. Therefore, I say, if the woman and man genuinely want it, and they are committed to raising any children to adulthood in a loving home, why not? Does the Russian Church mandate any minimum age disparity between couples?

rusmeister
08-01-2012, 23:30
How do you know that the current marriage model is the right one? How about old good times of "свальный грех"? Who proposed to change your life? Why don't men have to die at their 20 in some lion's teeth? I don't know about what to argue here, it's just easier to survive now, we don't need to fight for food and ostracism is not the scariest punishment any more.
And I'm sure that exploitation makes civilization possible, not a family. Which civilization is created by happy families? Just curious.
When people eat each other cannibalism was moral, during wars killing is moral, there are still differences in morals between different peoples (revenge, relation to women, to children or even animals, to property), I think i'm pretty sure morality IS a tool.
I'm not going to decide who should live and who should die to create the new happy society, just when i was young and curious I read some books about ethology and what i remember are graphs demonstrated the exponential growth of population. And the books said nothing about necessity of man's interference to a process of population decrease, nature will do it by itself: not enough food, diseases, aggressiveness etc (as I remember there was a figure about 10 mln who dies of hungriness every year, but it happens of course somewhere far away).
I usually don't argue with people about their beliefs, have no idea what happened to me, may it's be too long holidays. :))) And sorry for my english
which is too poor for a topic like this (morality etc, not old men's needs) :)
So dear Rusmeister if you like to believe that changing of family is really problem humanity is faced now and spoiled young women need money and nothing more, that's ok (though not the truth) :)

Hi, Masha,
It's not a question of what I "like to believe", it's a question of what is true.

As near as I can make out (understand), you seem to be advocating social anarchy, IOW, let everyone do whatever they want, let there be no order. This is the very opposite of civilization. It is the thing that breaks civilization back down into barbarism. So I don't know what others are thanking in the idea, except that they like hearing license to do whatever they want.

Civilization is built on groups of families that have a common language and worldview. Thus, villages are formed, then towns,then cities, then states. Not from wandering bachelors and spinsters all doing whatever they like. It is a basic fact which should be obvious. Since the family is the foundational unit, analogous to the cell in the human body, a proposal to break down the cell walls is actually a death sentence for the organism, whether it realizes it or not, as it becomes prey to viruses and bacteria and indeed ceases to have any definite shape. So it is with society. If we walk past a man (or what we think might be a man) and have no idea whether he is attracted to men or women or dogs, whether he us a suicidal fatalist or a homicidal hedonist, whether he worships a fire god that demands child sacrifice, and so on, then we can have no society with this man. But if we know that men are attracted to women, women to men, that sexual relations are for marriage, that we have a common God (or even god), then we can build something together. We can establish laws based on common understandings, allow him to teach our children or fix the sink in our home - in a word, because there are norms, above all norms of morality, sanity reigns and we can have real freedom - within the strictures of common morality. Anarchy is not freedom. It is madness. Freedom exists within limits and rules.

martpark
09-01-2012, 02:21
Hi, Masha,
It's not a question of what I "like to believe", it's a question of what is true.

As near as I can make out (understand), you seem to be advocating social anarchy, IOW, let everyone do whatever they want, let there be no order. This is the very opposite of civilization. It is the thing that breaks civilization back down into barbarism. So I don't know what others are thanking in the idea, except that they like hearing license to do whatever they want.

Civilization is built on groups of families that have a common language and worldview. Thus, villages are formed, then towns,then cities, then states. Not from wandering bachelors and spinsters all doing whatever they like. It is a basic fact which should be obvious. Since the family is the foundational unit, analogous to the cell in the human body, a proposal to break down the cell walls is actually a death sentence for the organism, whether it realizes it or not, as it becomes prey to viruses and bacteria and indeed ceases to have any definite shape. So it is with society. If we walk past a man (or what we think might be a man) and have no idea whether he is attracted to men or women or dogs, whether he us a suicidal fatalist or a homicidal hedonist, whether he worships a fire god that demands child sacrifice, and so on, then we can have no society with this man. But if we know that men are attracted to women, women to men, that sexual relations are for marriage, that we have a common God (or even god), then we can build something together. We can establish laws based on common understandings, allow him to teach our children or fix the sink in our home - in a word, because there are norms, above all norms of morality, sanity reigns and we can have real freedom - within the strictures of common morality. Anarchy is not freedom. It is madness. Freedom exists within limits and rules.

Disregarding the other rhetoric, the analogy you wanted to create is faulty at best. Cells are individuals. Organs are 'families' of cells.

The simple truth is individuals makes families and families make individuals. You cannot have one with out the other.

rusmeister
09-01-2012, 05:40
Disregarding the other rhetoric, the analogy you wanted to create is faulty at best. Cells are individuals. Organs are 'families' of cells.

The simple truth is individuals makes families and families make individuals. You cannot have one with out the other.

Indeed. That is why the family must not be broken up or abolished and must be protected. If you want to have anything at all you must start by protecting the family. Normally that means extended family as well of course, and was such obvious common sense that it never needed to be elaborated to anyone - until now. In our time the idea of the "nuclear family" was born to separate us from the community of families, and now the supremacy of the individual would smash the family to atoms. Nuclear, indeed! We are the first people in history to think that anything at all can constitute a family, or that it can be redefined at will - and so we will also be the last.

If you disregard rhetoric, you have not thereby shown it to be false. On the contrary, you demonstrate (to others) an inability to do so.

rusmeister
09-01-2012, 06:18
Actually Rus, I'm nearly as conservative as you. I believe that the primary purpose of marriage is to secure the next generation in the best possible manner. Children most definitely need a loving mother and father. Most men, who are only interested in sex, aren't going to marry their sexual partner, regardless of his or her age. That said, one reason a May - November marriage may work is the disparity in reproductive years between men and women. A man in his fifties is still fertile, while most women are not. Further, men, if they are healthy and not addicts or alcoholics, can live long enough today until their children are grown. Therefore, I say, if the woman and man genuinely want it, and they are committed to raising any children to adulthood in a loving home, why not? Does the Russian Church mandate any minimum age disparity between couples?
Of course not. I do not say that they mustn't, only that it is not ideal. And here I speak from first-hand knowledge as an older parent, who has been mistaken for a grandparent on a couple of occasions. It is more difficult, Jack, to raise children when you are older. All of the things that require physical energy become more difficult. I wish I'd had all my kids twenty years ago. I have four now, the youngest is two and a half. And as I get older, and feel my mortality more, I wonder whether I will be around for her wedding. Or her own kids. It is a fact that parents want good and healthy grandparents for their own children, something that the older parent is not likely to supply; one that can lift up that two year-old and carry her on his shoulders and run around after her, if only to keep her away from the road.

So what I'm saying is that the issue of children is a huge one not seriously considered in these unequal marriages - and the younger one is, at some later point, very likely to want that entirely normal experience which the older one has already had or no longer needs. The relative lack of age and wisdom also makes for more difficult companionship - the one has an abyss of experience that the other can hardly comprehend.

So it is not wicked - but it is not wise, either, generally speaking. Once you get past the issue most people are hung on - sating our hunger for sex or wealth - these other issues remain and can be serious problems.

NotMe
09-01-2012, 12:50
Of course not. I do not say that they mustn't, only that it is not ideal. And here I speak from first-hand knowledge as an older parent, who has been mistaken for a grandparent on a couple of occasions. It is more difficult, Jack, to raise children when you are older. All of the things that require physical energy become more difficult. I wish I'd had all my kids twenty years ago. I have four now, the youngest is two and a half. And as I get older, and feel my mortality more, I wonder whether I will be around for her wedding. Or her own kids. It is a fact that parents want good and healthy grandparents for their own children, something that the older parent is not likely to supply; one that can lift up that two year-old and carry her on his shoulders and run around after her, if only to keep her away from the road.

So what I'm saying is that the issue of children is a huge one not seriously considered in these unequal marriages - and the younger one is, at some later point, very likely to want that entirely normal experience which the older one has already had or no longer needs. The relative lack of age and wisdom also makes for more difficult companionship - the one has an abyss of experience that the other can hardly comprehend.

So it is not wicked - but it is not wise, either, generally speaking. Once you get past the issue most people are hung on - sating our hunger for sex or wealth - these other issues remain and can be serious problems.


I take my hat off, rusmeister.:respect:

For most men in some issues it's extremely hard to call things by their right names. :)

Pastafarian
09-01-2012, 14:08
I can't agree here.

'Validation' implies some sort of insecurity.

Many guys I know in Moscow over say 50 dating girls in their early 20's are pretty far from insecure.

Younger women prefer older men.

I agree. I don't think validation is the main point here (although the trophy wife/mistress/girlfriend thing is common in Moscow). I know quite a few guys in their forties/fifties who married women significantly youger than them, and they're usually not insecure.
Actually, insecure men tend to be loners or stuck in relationships they don't just fall into. That's what I see around me, in pretty much all countries I visit.

Jack17
09-01-2012, 19:27
I have four now, the youngest is two and a half.

DAMN!!!! Rus, you da man!!! A cock-of-the-walk you are, a real pistol. My hat's off to you brother. You might be a little tired; but not tired enough to be a father - you da shisnicks!!

I don't think you have anything to regret or feel sorry about, only to be proud of. ISA, you da man!:inlove:

martpark
09-01-2012, 22:41
Indeed. That is why the family must not be broken up or abolished and must be protected. If you want to have anything at all you must start by protecting the family. Normally that means extended family as well of course, and was such obvious common sense that it never needed to be elaborated to anyone - until now. In our time the idea of the "nuclear family" was born to separate us from the community of families, and now the supremacy of the individual would smash the family to atoms. Nuclear, indeed! We are the first people in history to think that anything at all can constitute a family, or that it can be redefined at will - and so we will also be the last.

If you disregard rhetoric, you have not thereby shown it to be false. On the contrary, you demonstrate (to others) an inability to do so.

Civilizations are built by groups and individuals. 'Family' comes from the Latin for 'servants'. The modern meaning of 'blood relative' comes hundreds of years later. Throughout history the greatest thinkers that pushed society forward were individuals, whether they had children or not is irrelevant. Terms like 'family values' are modern concepts as old as you or me.

Btw, I disregard sensationalism too.

rotyn
09-01-2012, 23:26
Is it always the aged man going out with youngsters.....are isn't it as well the young chick searching a mature companion as well?

Could be that the "quality" of the night out is just a improved compared to silly booze-and-shit-talk events with young boys? ;)

Just an idea.....

rusmeister
10-01-2012, 13:32
Civilizations are built by groups and individuals. 'Family' comes from the Latin for 'servants'. The modern meaning of 'blood relative' comes hundreds of years later. Throughout history the greatest thinkers that pushed society forward were individuals, whether they had children or not is irrelevant. Terms like 'family values' are modern concepts as old as you or me.

Btw, I disregard sensationalism too.
Well, I am speaking not of the etymology of the English word "family" (btw, I like the OED, too) but a thing which has always existed in recorded history, even long before Latin existed. We find the concept in the Bible. Even when it is polygamous, it is still an organization based on blood ties. Monogamy was a real advance, found in the pagan world, Judaism and ultimately Christendom.

Now I certainly agree that the greatest thinkers were individuals (not a difficult concession to make :) ), but as to "pushing society forward" we might find a good deal of disagreement on what that means and how the ancients and medievals understood the individual in relation to the family and society. Individualism as we understand it today can be traced by and large to the Protestant Reformation.

I wonder what mechanism you would offer to replace the family in civilization, since you seem to think we can get along without it? Producing children is easy. Raising them in an environment that is both stable and loving is not.

martpark
10-01-2012, 19:44
Well, I am speaking not of the etymology of the English word "family" (btw, I like the OED, too) but a thing which has always existed in recorded history, even long before Latin existed. We find the concept in the Bible. Even when it is polygamous, it is still an organization based on blood ties. Monogamy was a real advance, found in the pagan world, Judaism and ultimately Christendom.

Now I certainly agree that the greatest thinkers were individuals (not a difficult concession to make :) ), but as to "pushing society forward" we might find a good deal of disagreement on what that means and how the ancients and medievals understood the individual in relation to the family and society. Individualism as we understand it today can be traced by and large to the Protestant Reformation.

I wonder what mechanism you would offer to replace the family in civilization, since you seem to think we can get along without it? Producing children is easy. Raising them in an environment that is both stable and loving is not.

Replace families?? Families have been around long before recorded history. Just look at the animal kingdom, particularly mammals. There has never been a 'war' on families. Just silly political propaganda when they are afraid of unattractive issues like institutional violence, slavery and famine.

Of course, we'll find disagreement on this. No one believes exactly the same. Why expect everyone to agree on everything? Or expect everyone to live as you do? You have a unique way and so does everyone else. Complete agreement doesn't happen to any individual in any religion or philosophy.

"Producing children is easy. Raising them in an environment that is both stable and loving is not."

And that is the exact argument for allowing same sex adoptions. Case after case shows that that they is no discernible difference between good straight or gay parents. It's all about stability and love.

Rus, I honestly don't understand your obsession with family vs individual. The people you admire most: Jesus - unmarried, Chesterton - Married/childless, CS Lewis - completely convoluted childless relationships, somehow managed to have some influence on you and society. Maybe it's not as black and white as it seems.

PS. A Happy New Year to you and yours!

rusmeister
12-01-2012, 06:20
Replace families?? Families have been around long before recorded history. Just look at the animal kingdom, particularly mammals. There has never been a 'war' on families. Just silly political propaganda when they are afraid of unattractive issues like institutional violence, slavery and famine.

Of course, we'll find disagreement on this. No one believes exactly the same. Why expect everyone to agree on everything? Or expect everyone to live as you do? You have a unique way and so does everyone else. Complete agreement doesn't happen to any individual in any religion or philosophy.

"Producing children is easy. Raising them in an environment that is both stable and loving is not."

And that is the exact argument for allowing same sex adoptions. Case after case shows that that they is no discernible difference between good straight or gay parents. It's all about stability and love.

Rus, I honestly don't understand your obsession with family vs individual. The people you admire most: Jesus - unmarried, Chesterton - Married/childless, CS Lewis - completely convoluted childless relationships, somehow managed to have some influence on you and society. Maybe it's not as black and white as it seems.

PS. A Happy New Year to you and yours!
Hi, Mart!
Thanks, and the same to you!
FTR, yesterday I spent half an hour on my iPad typing out a response, only to have the browser crash and lose everything. I'll try to give it another go later on my PC. I've just been learning, slowly and painfully, that big time investments on mobile browsers are risky business.

martpark
12-01-2012, 23:51
Hi, Mart!
Thanks, and the same to you!
FTR, yesterday I spent half an hour on my iPad typing out a response, only to have the browser crash and lose everything. I'll try to give it another go later on my PC. I've just been learning, slowly and painfully, that big time investments on mobile browsers are risky business.

I have the same problem except only the iPad working for the last 2 months. My backup pc closes down as often as it starts up. Cest la vie.

Steph
13-01-2012, 10:22
I have come a bit late to this discussion but I am willing to bet the the OP was an expression of frustration not at the actual fact of an age gap between people getting together per se, because if it works for both parties then why the hell not, but instead a rant at the specific suituation that arises when a man leaves his wife of many years for a younger model.

That is what we see all too often and what I personally find appalling. I'm young and beautiful now but I am female and I can already feel how utterly devastating it would be if I devote my life to someone and take the vows saying you will stand by each other, then your husband stops finding you attractive or interesting and forgets his promise, and leaves you all alone just because you got older through no fault of your own. If/when it happens to me I will try to be understanding (cos I'm naturally inclined to cheat too lol) but inside I'll be screaming with rage and pain

It is a tragedy because many middle aged women feel great and sexy but it seems that many men only find young women attractive.

DavidB
13-01-2012, 11:17
It is a tragedy because many middle aged women feel great and sexy but it seems that many men only find young women attractive.

I've dated girls in the past because they were fun and we had a connection, not because of looks. If they were hard on the eye it would be difficult, but for an average looking girl, I think they can find someone.

On the other hand, I've dated girls who look like models. They usually got their money's worth in eating out, holidays, etc. We both understood that the relationship wouldn't last long if the entertainment stopped. Similarly, if a 50 year old man wanted to marry a 25 year old model, she would probably expect a Mercedes, a fur coat, etc...

Most Russian girls understand that they can have fun and men will spend money on them when they're young. Few would expect that to last past their 30s.

I don't see any moral issues with the above as long as both are being honest about their motives. Bible fanatics will argue otherwise, but I think that in the modern day, expecting a single relationship to last for 60 years of adult life is entirely unrealistic. Life expectancy was 30 years shorter in 1900...

yakspeare
13-01-2012, 11:31
well when passion dies often does the marriage...and marriage requires effort to keep alive. men often leave for younger because younger makes them feel alive ie something has been lost in the marriage. intimacy creates passion and while it wont cure a total womanizer, it would go along way towards keeping the average man around. in short, you want to keep your man, make yourself availble to him in the bedroom and instigate it once in a while. dress nice for him, pamper him and there is a lot less chance of him leaving.

i know in my case, and i was married young, my ex wife gave two children one after another. Then never wanted sex again. lol. four years I went without sex, older men can go a decade without it-and then somehow it is his fault when he leaves for someone who would give it to him. so many partners today have sex far too infrequently. my parents(much to my disgust at the time) were always at it, always having weekends away, dad always buying mum lingerie etc. they did 35 years and were like teenagers in love, right to the end when my mum died.

Steph
13-01-2012, 12:00
DavidB, definitely, I'm with you that if both parties are clear on it then that is great. I was talking specifically about marriage, when a promise has been made. I'm all for short flings and fun, but when it comes to marriage I guess I can be quite traditional in that if you make that promise then you gotta stick with it (unless both want out i guess).

((Although I was "married" on facebook for several years... !! and i just changed it back so perhaps I'm a big fat hypocrite))

Yaks, I hear a lot about women who dont want sex, I just can't understand it or imagine it :) In my relationships the guy is always telling me I'm a sexpest and a pervert :)
But I agree with you

TolkoRaz
13-01-2012, 13:16
In my relationships the guy is always telling me I'm a sexpest and a pervert :)

Sounds like an advertisement or some active marketing! ;)

Steph
13-01-2012, 13:36
Well, I gotta make the most of it before the bed-death, childbearing and hormones kick in, right?

But seriously, once or twice I have made good men feel inadequate because they were not in the mood, and that is a bad thing and something I need to try and not do

TolkoRaz
13-01-2012, 13:42
Well, I gotta make the most of it before the bed-death, childbearing and hormones kick in, right?

But seriously, once or twice I have made good men feel inadequate because they were not in the mood, and that is a bad thing and something I need to try and not do

Feed them lots of red meat, steak for example, before seeing to devour them! ;)

Good Luck! :)

rusmeister
13-01-2012, 14:14
I have come a bit late to this discussion but I am willing to bet the the OP was an expression of frustration not at the actual fact of an age gap between people getting together per se, because if it works for both parties then why the hell not, but instead a rant at the specific suituation that arises when a man leaves his wife of many years for a younger model.

That is what we see all too often and what I personally find appalling. I'm young and beautiful now but I am female and I can already feel how utterly devastating it would be if I devote my life to someone and take the vows saying you will stand by each other, then your husband stops finding you attractive or interesting and forgets his promise, and leaves you all alone just because you got older through no fault of your own. If/when it happens to me I will try to be understanding (cos I'm naturally inclined to cheat too lol) but inside I'll be screaming with rage and pain

It is a tragedy because many middle aged women feel great and sexy but it seems that many men only find young women attractive.

Since I have a daughter by your name, my sympathy with your attitude is boundless.

The fact that you know you would be screaming with rage and pain tells you that the inclintion to cheat (in Russian, "betray"), even if it is yours, is wrong. Thus, the inclination must be resisted and condemned. Not merely having it, but acting on it.

It starts with the vow, the idea in our time that it is socially OK to break a vow. We really ought to look at any divorced person (or at east the people tatinitiatevand agree to divorces) as someone with three legs - or more accurately, one leg, and feel sympathy and pity, but no desire to be like that.
A vow ought to be what it was in the Middle Ages. An oath-breaker ought to be held in contempt, not trusted in business or personal affairs, an outcast. People ought to fear to make oaths and fear breaking them more. Our society was based on the vow, now it is based on the contract. We can hardly understand Tatyana Larina when she says to Evgeny Onegin of her husband the general, "I will be faithful to him for the rest of my life", forwe see marriageas a contract, something to be broken when the going gets rough. But that's why vows were made in the first place - to help couples through the rough times, the inclinations, the temptations to send her (or him) to hell and bolt.

But if people honor the vow, and have a worldview that helps hem forgive their spouse and see how much we ourselves need forgiveness, you need never feel that pain and heartbreak. And so your children bring their children to visit you and your husband, still living together into old age - because you held the right attitude towards marriage.

MickeyTong
13-01-2012, 15:10
An oath-breaker ought to be held in contempt, not trusted in business or personal affairs, an outcast.

I've been divorced, Rus, and I'm an apostate.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2gx3d47.jpg

Steph
13-01-2012, 15:35
Despising divorced people, that is a bit extreme! Often people envy them :) and often they are happy

Actually Rusmeister I was not talking about cheating but specifically about one person abandoning a marriage when the other person had invested their best years in it as a security for when they are old and infirm. It must be terrible to feel like your man/men in general doesn't like/don't like you any more and gives all the attention to young girls.

I just felt that the OP had been frustrated and perhaps had this happen to her, but all the replies seemed to be from men ridiculing her situation, I was just trying to sympathise. There seems to be a lot more men on this site than women.

But personally even though I said about the rage and pain scream, that is a natural reaction but any situation has its good points and ways to be turned to strength and good. People can get over anything. Plus, I believe that as rational people we do not have to be ruled by our first reactions and by jealousy. My jury is currently out but through much of my life I have believed that we can share love/lovers and be polyamourous

NotMe
13-01-2012, 16:21
Despising divorced people, that is a bit extreme! Often people envy them :) and often they are happy

Actually Rusmeister I was not talking about cheating but specifically about one person abandoning a marriage when the other person had invested their best years in it as a security for when they are old and infirm. It must be terrible to feel like your man/men in general doesn't like/don't like you any more and gives all the attention to young girls.

Steph :)

In my book, investment in men to guarantee your security when you get old and infirm is the worst thing some woman could do. :)

In fact, for that purpose there are a lot of different much more reliably ways of investment. :p

BabyFirefly
13-01-2012, 16:23
Men dating much younger women.... it's like they believe it "proves" they have a big.... bank account.

Women dating younger men... they believe it makes them "hotter".

Steph
13-01-2012, 16:32
Steph :)

In my book, investment in men to guarantee your security when you get old and infirm is the worst thing some woman could do. :)

In fact, for that purpose there are a lot of different much more reliably ways of investment. :p

Valid point, but I was not talking about finance. I was talking about having someone who you know well and have lived and laughed with, someone to share thoughts, fun, dreams, memories and melancholy with. I love meeting new people now, but I'm pretty sure that when I'm 80 I'll want a comfortable old friend to watch the telly with and bitch about the "youth of today" etc

yakspeare
13-01-2012, 16:49
Well talking of a contract...marriage has a lot to it. and sexual relations are one part of that. Abstaining for a time, for health reasons(illness or whatever) is fine but when a marriage becomes sexless....I consider that one of the contracts has been breached too. Indeed considering a lack of consummation of a marriage can make the marriage null and void in Catholicism and other religions, the sex act is an integral part of it. Now this wasn't the reason why my particular marriage failed(she left me) but it made me terribly unhappy. To be, as many couples are, in a sexless relationship for decades is quite unthinkable. I am not sure if it would mean I would leave such a marriage, but I certainly wouldn't blame any man who did. And if that man found happiness in a younger woman, in contrast to the frigidity he had at home, then I don't think all the blame belongs on him alone.

Jack17
13-01-2012, 16:58
Men dating much younger women.... it's like they believe it "proves" they have a big.... bank account.

No baby, it doesn't prove they have a big bank account; it is scientifically incontrovertable evidence they have a big bank account.

This entire thread is like asking the question: Is the sky blue when it's not cloudy?

NotMe
13-01-2012, 17:15
Valid point, but I was not talking about finance. I was talking about having someone who you know well and have lived and laughed with, someone to share thoughts, fun, dreams, memories and melancholy with. I love meeting new people now, but I'm pretty sure that when I'm 80 I'll want a comfortable old friend to watch the telly with and bitch about the "youth of today" etc

It could be a woman or a male friend you never shared a bed! :p

Steph
13-01-2012, 17:34
It could be a woman or a male friend you never shared a bed! :p

True it could be, but bed sharing and cuddles is pretty damn cool too! Don't wanna have to ring up and invite a friend over every time I want human contact

MickeyTong
13-01-2012, 18:00
Sex addiction and low self esteem. Some of the comments are particularly revealing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16469222

NotMe
13-01-2012, 19:29
True it could be, but bed sharing and cuddles is pretty damn cool too!

Agree 100%


Don't wanna have to ring up and invite a friend over every time I want human contact

"Bed sharing... friend...human contact"

I am afraid you keep smth. back ;)

Jack17
13-01-2012, 19:51
Sex addiction and low self esteem. Some of the comments are particularly revealing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16469222
"sometimes sleeping with women at the rate of 10 per week" Get the fuc$ outta here!

This individual obviously had no job or other occupation if this is what he is doing. This guy doesn't need a 12 step program; he needs a life.

MickeyTong
13-01-2012, 20:36
"sometimes sleeping with women at the rate of 10 per week" Get the fuc$ outta here!

This individual obviously had no job or other occupation if this is what he is doing. This guy doesn't need a 12 step program; he needs a life.

JFK and Gladstone managed to perform well in quite demanding professional roles.....

Jack17
13-01-2012, 20:46
JFK and Gladstone managed to perform well in quite demanding professional roles.....

10 a week? I don't think so.

rusmeister
13-01-2012, 21:17
I've been divorced, Rus, and I'm an apostate.

http://i48.tinypic.com/2gx3d47.jpg
Mickey, I was almost divorced myself.
If you read a holier-than-thou attitude where none was intended, I'm sorry.
What I mean is that the ideal is that divorce ought to be an extreme exception, not a rule. It ought to be something that people would shun and
avoid at nearly any cost.

MickeyTong
13-01-2012, 21:54
Mickey, I was almost divorced myself.
If you read a holier-than-thou attitude where none was intended, I'm sorry.
What I mean is that the ideal is that divorce ought to be an extreme exception, not a rule. It ought to be something that people would shun and
avoid at nearly any cost.

I think it usually is the exception, Rus: I doubt that here are many people who get married with the idea "this will do for a couple of years", or "I'll love her until the cellulite shows", or "as long as he has a good job". ("Celebrity marriages" to garner column inches are one exception I can think of.)

I shunned my own divorce for a long time....and eventually it did cost me a lot. So did my apostasy.

rusmeister
14-01-2012, 13:58
I think it usually is the exception, Rus: I doubt that here are many people who get married with the idea "this will do for a couple of years", or "I'll love her until the cellulite shows", or "as long as he has a good job". ("Celebrity marriages" to garner column inches are one exception I can think of.)

I shunned my own divorce for a long time....and eventually it did cost me a lot. So did my apostasy.
Several times now I've had my mobile browser crash while typing a reply.

Anyway, it might or might not be obvious that I do not mean that people PLAN to get divorce - although pre-nuptial contracts do exactly that. But the general attitude IS contractual - the idea of a vow that must be held for life without exception or excuse is absent from our society on the whole. Any of us could name fifty excuses why a divorce would be acceptable today. I think we have great difficulty taking seriously the idea of making a vow and keeping it when circumstances really are adverse.

But it is difficult to discuss this with people who HAVE been divorced. For they have understandably strong emotional motivation to justify their divorce. It is extraordinarily easy to read personal condemnation where there is none, where I only see a tragedy enacted on all of us; where I myself only escaped that tragedy by a hair.

What I would try to say, if it could be heard, is that I am convinced that divorce is a preventable tragedy. If it is not prevented, it IS tragic, but much effort goes into anesthetizing us, into letting us convince ourselves that it is not tragic. But if we have the right worldview, one that really enables us to deal with the enormous difficulties that living with another person for life entail, then we can nevertheless avoid divorce - or even restore a broken marriage and family.

Two things I would share, one short, the other longer, that helped me clarify my views on this - for I found that, as formulated, they are true:
http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/rash_vows.html (abridged version) A consideration of the vow. Takes four minutes to read and worth every second.

http://www.gkc.org.uk/gkc/books/divorce.txt
One of the five greatest works of GKC, for my money. Examines divorce in the context of the marriage. Chapter five (on the family) is one of the great statements of all time.

Maybe no one will understand them - or me. But it'd be nice, if people must disagree with me, if they at least understood me when doing so. And if they find something they agree with, or even laugh at, so much the nicer! :)

MickeyTong
14-01-2012, 16:59
I think we have great difficulty taking seriously the idea of making a vow and keeping it when circumstances really are adverse.

But it is difficult to discuss this with people who HAVE been divorced. For they have understandably strong emotional motivation to justify their divorce. It is extraordinarily easy to read personal condemnation where there is none, where I only see a tragedy enacted on all of us; where I myself only escaped that tragedy by a hair.



Rus, I have a son who believes that I "ought" to be publicly executed: this is a situation whose tragedy I do not deny. Nevertheless, I do justify my divorce from his mother.

When you write: " An oath-breaker ought to be held in contempt, not trusted in business or personal affairs, an outcast" it is rather difficult not to read personal condemnation. The word "ought" is not neutral.

rusmeister
14-01-2012, 17:48
Rus, I have a son who believes that I "ought" to be publicly executed: this is a situation whose tragedy I do not deny. Nevertheless, I do justify my divorce from his mother.

When you write: " An oath-breaker ought to be held in contempt, not trusted in business or personal affairs, an outcast" it is rather difficult not to read personal condemnation. The word "ought" is not neutral.

What I would try to get you to see is not that I think that people who have done this ought to be..., but that in the ideal society, the oath-breaker would be held in contempt, and so much fewer of us would be oath-breakers in the first place, because everyone would agree that it is very uncool.

In your own case, you were completely outside of Christian culture, and so one could hardly even begin speaking of Christian ideals there. And that is one of the things that makes Islam false to my mind - because its ideals really do not discourage divorce and do not (for the men at any rate) encourage the self-sacrificing love for the wife as Christ loved the Church.

I'm talking about what ought to be in society in general, not what ought to be done in your situation. Does that clear up a little?

yakspeare
14-01-2012, 18:01
islam doesn't speak out against divorce?

really?

Well when I lived in Uzbekistan, a woman was forbidden to speak ill of her husband and must endure everything. He can beat her, have affairs, do whatever...half marriages are arranged but not all. If she complains EVEN to her own family, she has shamed them. Divorce is unthinkable because she has no right to even entertain the idea. She is promised to him, her oath, and must stay with him no matter what. Divorce will mean she will also not be part of her own family, she will be on her own.

Sounds ideal doesn't it?

MickeyTong
14-01-2012, 18:11
In your own case, you were completely outside of Christian culture, and so one could hardly even begin speaking of Christian ideals there. And that is one of the things that makes Islam false to my mind - because its ideals really do not discourage divorce and do not (for the men at any rate) encourage the self-sacrificing love for the wife as Christ loved the Church.

I'm talking about what ought to be in society in general, not what ought to be done in your situation. Does that clear up a little?

Islam does actually discourage divorce.
"The most detestable of all things permitted is divorce" (Hadith).
"The most perfect believer in faith is the one whose character is finest and who is kindest to his wife" (Hadith).
And many more ahadith.....
However, my divorce was strongly linked to my apostasy. It was inevitable.


I take your point that you were generalising.

MickeyTong
14-01-2012, 20:05
Well when I lived in Uzbekistan, a woman was forbidden to speak ill of her husband and must endure everything. He can beat her, have affairs, do whatever...half marriages are arranged but not all. If she complains EVEN to her own family, she has shamed them. Divorce is unthinkable because she has no right to even entertain the idea. She is promised to him, her oath, and must stay with him no matter what. Divorce will mean she will also not be part of her own family, she will be on her own.

Sounds ideal doesn't it?

Women have it rough in societies where they depend on the "goodness" of men. There is a Hadith: "...be afraid of the curse of an oppressed person because there is no screen between his invocation and Allah". Basically, as you treat those under your authority, so Allah will treat you. Muslims are usually not aware of this and, consequently (following the moral laws of cause and effect), they have been conquered by people who oppress them.

rusmeister
14-01-2012, 20:37
Islam does actually discourage divorce.
"The most detestable of all things permitted is divorce" (Hadith).
"The most perfect believer in faith is the one whose character is finest and who is kindest to his wife" (Hadith).
And many more ahadith.....
However, my divorce was strongly linked to my apostasy. It was inevitable.


I take your point that you were generalising.

Didn't mean to oversimplify.
But correct me if I'm wrong here; it seems to me that Islam is quite similar to protestantism in terms of authority; who interprets the sacred texts and traditions. There is no central hierarchy like in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches that espouses given dogma that no one professing those faiths may deny and remain Catholic or Orthodox.

So then do not teachings, expositions of the Koran vary considerably across the Islamic world? (even if you were in a fairly homogenous tradition) That would impact questions like divorce, as well, of course, and how a given imam teaches from the Koran and the rest of his tradition, n'est-ce-pas?

Green Tea
14-01-2012, 20:44
Maybe I'm not old enough to really worry about this issue yet (I'm 32). But I've noticed that younger women, 18-23 years old, aren't nearly as fun to be around as women 24-30 years old. I don't like dating students. They are always busy and seem to have some sort of test or exam every week. I like women who are done with their studies and have free time to do things during the week.

MickeyTong
14-01-2012, 21:29
Didn't mean to oversimplify.
But correct me if I'm wrong here; it seems to me that Islam is quite similar to protestantism in terms of authority; who interprets the sacred texts and traditions. There is no central hierarchy like in the Catholic or Orthodox Churches that espouses given dogma that no one professing those faiths may deny and remain Catholic or Orthodox.

So then do not teachings, expositions of the Koran vary considerably across the Islamic world? (even if you were in a fairly homogenous tradition) That would impact questions like divorce, as well, of course, and how a given imam teaches from the Koran and the rest of his tradition, n'est-ce-pas?

Not that it's relevant to a thread about older men dating younger women.....unless you consider Mohammed's marriage to Aisha (she was 6, he was in his late 40s).

But.....there is the Quran (believed to be God's final message to the human race) and it's best exegesis comes from Mohammed (in his Hadith). You cannot deny the "truth" of either of these and still remain a Muslim. There are further interpretations of Quran and Hadith which are accepted by educated Muslims (ie those who know anything about their religion) as authoritative. None would disagree with Ghazali or Bukhari. It is considered that definitive interpretation was completed by Ghazali.

But you are correct to say there is no central authority. That ended when the Caliphate ended (some say this was at the end of the Ottoman Empire, others say it was when the Mongols conquered Baghdad).

There is a Hadith (a reported saying of Mohammed, therefore to be accepted as Truth): "My ummah (Muslims) will be divided into 73 sects. All of them will be in the Fire except one."

The Caliphate will be restored only when Nabi Isa (Jesus) returns to Earth (he is alive, in physical form, in Heaven until then....he was not crucified: he was replaced on the cross by Judas, who looked very much like him). He will return to Earth in Damascus, immediately after Friday congregational prayers, after a long period when non-Muslim enemies of Islam have over-run Islamic lands.....etc, etc......

Jack17
14-01-2012, 21:34
Maybe I'm not old enough to really worry about this issue yet (I'm 32). But I've noticed that younger women, 18-23 years old, aren't nearly as fun to be around as women 24-30 years old. I don't like dating students. They are always busy and seem to have some sort of test or exam every week. I like women who are done with their studies and have free time to do things during the week.
I'm with you 100% Green Tea. I'm 58 and women 24 to 30 are very engaging!

TolkoRaz
14-01-2012, 21:44
I'm with you 100% Green Tea. I'm 58 and women 24 to 30 are very engaging!

Its just a shame that one can not stay awake long enough to enjoy them! ;)

Jack17
15-01-2012, 03:02
Its just a shame that one can not stay awake long enough to enjoy them! ;)
Speak for yourself old timer.

rusmeister
15-01-2012, 07:13
Not that it's relevant to a thread about older men dating younger women.....unless you consider Mohammed's marriage to Aisha (she was 6, he was in his late 40s).

But.....there is the Quran (believed to be God's final message to the human race) and it's best exegesis comes from Mohammed (in his Hadith). You cannot deny the "truth" of either of these and still remain a Muslim. There are further interpretations of Quran and Hadith which are accepted by educated Muslims (ie those who know anything about their religion) as authoritative. None would disagree with Ghazali or Bukhari. It is considered that definitive interpretation was completed by Ghazali.

But you are correct to say there is no central authority. That ended when the Caliphate ended (some say this was at the end of the Ottoman Empire, others say it was when the Mongols conquered Baghdad).

There is a Hadith (a reported saying of Mohammed, therefore to be accepted as Truth): "My ummah (Muslims) will be divided into 73 sects. All of them will be in the Fire except one."

The Caliphate will be restored only when Nabi Isa (Jesus) returns to Earth (he is alive, in physical form, in Heaven until then....he was not crucified: he was replaced on the cross by Judas, who looked very much like him). He will return to Earth in Damascus, immediately after Friday congregational prayers, after a long period when non-Muslim enemies of Islam have over-run Islamic lands.....etc, etc......

Thanks, Mickey.
What's relevant to the OP is the object of older men dating younger women and how they can stay together till death do they part. People can brainlessly copulate and equally brainlessly siphon money from bank accounts. But if they have brains, they must come to the realization that the object of dating (once known as "courtship") is marriage, and the object of marriage is staying together for life; that is, to not divorce.

What I was trying to say earlier (and nearly everything is said in the brief and often interrupted periods of quiet that I get) is that Islam does NOT have a Christ who died for His Church, and so there can be no analogous injunction. I'm sure there are injunctions to men to remain faithful, but none that lay out the idea of dying to oneself and sacrificing oneself for one's wife. I think it is frequently forgotten by Christian husbands, whose eyes light up when they see the injunction to wives, but it is an integral part of a formula that really CAN produce a lifelong marriage.

I think this can help couples who have a significant difference in age as well - but it is a difficult ideal. A wise man once said "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult, and left untried." as long as people are focused on what THEY can GET out of a marriage, they are liable to divorce, no matter what age. The idea that the husband, in particular, must sacrifice himself, seems to be unique to Christian tradition.

Steph
16-01-2012, 11:54
I don't think the point of dating is marriage. The point of dating is to work out what kind of person you WANT to marry and are suited to. Then once you get an idea of that you can stop dating and just wait to find your future life partner, cos you could find him/her in any situation

rusmeister
16-01-2012, 13:05
I don't think the point of dating is marriage. The point of dating is to work out what kind of person you WANT to marry and are suited to. Then once you get an idea of that you can stop dating and just wait to find your future life partner, cos you could find him/her in any situation

Well, that's the point where I ask when courtship turned into dating, and why. I have an answer to that, and it's connected with the breakdown of sexual morality, a thing that can be outlined and traced.

I don't think many people share your own idea of dating. It seems to me that your idea is a very personal one, that others do not understand in the word. If they did, most people would stop dating shortly after entering college.

I see the common understanding to be courtship minus the expectation of marriage - that the couple might wind up in bed at the end of the evening. And for most, little thought about staying together, about what they're going to do for the rest of their life occurs.

NotMe
16-01-2012, 16:09
I don't think the point of dating is marriage. The point of dating is to work out what kind of person you WANT to marry and are suited to. Then once you get an idea of that you can stop dating and just wait to find your future life partner, cos you could find him/her in any situation

Disagree, disagree! :p

How could you know that the person you have met is the very person you "WANT to marry and are suited to you"? :D

For example, you meet some guy in the metro who seems attractive to you. ;)
What are your next steps to make sure that he is a "marriage material"? :p

Jack17
16-01-2012, 19:11
I have an answer to that, and it's connected with the breakdown of sexual morality,

Step aside Rusmeister, now you're in an area where I'm expert.

What's all the hoopla about "dating?" What's the big deal? What is a "date" anyway? In the simplest terms, it's just that, a time and place on your calendar. Now, if by "date" you mean a chew and screw, OK; that's one kind of a date., there are many others. I think Steph is right on the money because the thing that separates us from other animals is how selective we are in choosing our mates; dating is just the modern human way of sniffing - both physically and psychologically. We humans are endlessly fascinated by one another for sexual and other reasons; we like to explore and learn. That's all, so what's the big deal?

Implicit in Steph's post is an idea that I hold; that is, we all know instantly when we see the person we want. I believe Carl Jung put it best when he wrote, "We all carry an image of the eternal beloved in our mind." I, for example, knew immediately after watching Mulholland Drive that it was my destiny in life to me mated to Naomi Watts. I'm still working on getting a date with her; I'll keep you posted on how it goes. I hope it's a chew and screw.

Swordfish90293
16-01-2012, 20:03
Step aside Rusmeister, now you're in an area where I'm expert.

What's all the hoopla about "dating?" What's the big deal? What is a "date" anyway? In the simplest terms, it's just that, a time and place on your calendar. Now, if by "date" you mean a chew and screw, OK; that's one kind of a date., there are many others. I think Steph is right on the money because the thing that separates us from other animals is how selective we are in choosing our mates; dating is just the modern human way of sniffing - both physically and psychologically. We humans are endlessly fascinated by one another for sexual and other reasons; we like to explore and learn. That's all, so what's the big deal?

Implicit in Steph's post is an idea that I hold; that is, we all know instantly when we see the person we want. I believe Carl Jung put it best when he wrote, "We all carry an image of the eternal beloved in our mind." I, for example, knew immediately after watching Mulholland Drive that it was my destiny in life to me mated to Naomi Watts. I'm still working on getting a date with her; I'll keep you posted on how it goes. I hope it's a chew and screw.

The Beast must eat...

jeni01
16-01-2012, 21:21
This ! And to add to that, a nice suit.

I'd say YES to that..it doesn't even have to be a suit as long as it's nice and clean.

TolkoRaz
16-01-2012, 23:14
This ! And to add to that, a nice suit.

I'd say YES to that..it doesn't even have to be a suit as long as it's nice and clean.

Does he have to be wearing it, or could it be in his wardrobe or on the bedroom floor? ;)

rusmeister
17-01-2012, 13:21
Step aside Rusmeister, now you're in an area where I'm expert.

What's all the hoopla about "dating?" What's the big deal? What is a "date" anyway? In the simplest terms, it's just that, a time and place on your calendar. Now, if by "date" you mean a chew and screw, OK; that's one kind of a date., there are many others. I think Steph is right on the money because the thing that separates us from other animals is how selective we are in choosing our mates; dating is just the modern human way of sniffing - both physically and psychologically. We humans are endlessly fascinated by one another for sexual and other reasons; we like to explore and learn. That's all, so what's the big deal?

Implicit in Steph's post is an idea that I hold; that is, we all know instantly when we see the person we want. I believe Carl Jung put it best when he wrote, "We all carry an image of the eternal beloved in our mind." I, for example, knew immediately after watching Mulholland Drive that it was my destiny in life to me mated to Naomi Watts. I'm still working on getting a date with her; I'll keep you posted on how it goes. I hope it's a chew and screw.


date (3) Look up date at Dictionary.com
"liaison," 1885, gradually evolving from date (1) in its general sense of "appointment;" romantic sense by 1890s; the verb in this sense is first recorded 1902. Meaning "person one has a date with" is from 1925.
This stuff is all very recent, Jack. How did the human race get on without all of this modern language?

But as for the rest, it seems that I'm talking about thinking about why we date, and you're saying "Why think?"

It seems to me that if we propose to engage in certain behavior with women, it would be more intelligent to understand why we do it and to what ends. It is that ability to think that really sets us apart from the animals, and a refusal to do so that lowers us to their level. If one is only thinking about is "getting laid", then I would say that they are nearer the animals and degrading from human.

Steph
17-01-2012, 15:04
Disagree, disagree! :p

How could you know that the person you have met is the very person you "WANT to marry and are suited to you"? :D

For example, you meet some guy in the metro who seems attractive to you. ;)
What are your next steps to make sure that he is a "marriage material"? :p



Dunno, hang out? I'm tying my thoughts in knots. I guess you have to go on dates then don't you. So, disregard what I said before....

I just have this idea that "dating" is a sepcific thing where two people who don't really know each other go to a restaurant and have a nice chat about what they both like and what they want out of life. It's like market research to see what kind of people are out there.

But you prob wont meet someone you actually want to be with like that. people you fall in love with and want to spend all your time with just come along when you least expect it, and then you don't really go on "dates" with them, you just start spending lots of time together cooking or watching sitcoms or going for walks or partying or lying next to each other

Jack17
17-01-2012, 19:33
you just start spending lots of time together cooking or watching sitcoms

"cooking or watching sitcoms?" Yo my Yo

Steph
17-01-2012, 20:39
"cooking or watching sitcoms?" Yo my Yo

Yeah, it's all wild passion laced with soup round my way!

Victoria 55
17-01-2012, 20:49
Yeah, it's all wild passion laced with soup round my way!
you forgot about the pasta,cakes and salads)

Steph
17-01-2012, 21:12
We could also take this discussion to the other side: how to women and girls feel about dating older men?

Well as for me, I lived with a russian guy twice my age for 3 years who was and is an utter dude. The good and bad bits of the age difference balanced each other out.

For me:
Good: He was very wise, loving and slow to anger. Good stories to tell, a balanced view on things. Comfortable in himself. Loved sewing buttons on my clothes, doing the shopping and the cooking. Loved me as in ME not my body or my reproductive capabilities or the perks I could bring him.
Bad: We didn't like the same kind of parties or ways of relaxing. Our sex appetites were not well balanced. I felt like he needed a woman who was older and more stable but he said he didn't like women his own age because they were too business-like and opinionated.
I felt like I couldn't do what would make me happy.

For him:
Good: He said I gave his life purpose and made him happy just by being.
Bad: I'm a bit manic and disturbed his peaceful life by being young and hyper, "all over the place" , wanting different things out of life.

So you see, it's not like one party gets all the pluses and one the minuses. There are good and bad sides to anything.

natlee
17-01-2012, 21:56
It's crap. I've done it. Twice. I do, however, know a woman happily married to a guy 20 years older but he's a bit of an exception - wonderful father, most importantly! With me, it starts with 'our age gap won't matter one bit as I'm fit and healthy and we will have many happy years together' blah blah then turns into 'I'm too old for this' and 'too old for that' within months.. sad, really, but hardly a surprise. Oh and 'I would love to have a child with you' turns into 'I should've done that 20 years ago' (and then hey, I could've been with your kid instead!)

Jack17
17-01-2012, 22:19
It's crap. I've done it. Twice. I do, however, know a woman happily married to a guy 20 years older but he's a bit of an exception - wonderful father, most importantly! With me, it starts with 'our age gap won't matter one bit as I'm fit and healthy and we will have many happy years together' blah blah then turns into 'I'm too old for this' and 'too old for that' within months.. sad, really, but hardly a surprise. Oh and 'I would love to have a child with you' turns into 'I should've done that 20 years ago' (and then hey, I could've been with your kid instead!)
Natlee, don't be so down on older men; I think you just hooked up with the wrong older guy. Take me for example: young at heart, imaginative, exciting . . . there are some other qualities, I just can't remember what they are right now; I'll get back to you after my nap.

rusmeister
18-01-2012, 09:31
Natlee, don't be so down on older men; I think you just hooked up with the wrong older guy. Take me for example: young at heart, imaginative, exciting . . . there are some other qualities, I just can't remember what they are right now; I'll get back to you after my nap.

:D

It comes down to a situation where there are significant strikes against a happy marriage - where all other things being equal, it is less likely that such a couple will find mutual happiness and satisfaction in companionship, upbringing of children and so on. It's not impossible, it's not wicked... But it's not preferable or ideal, and the long-term problems will come back to bite you down the road.

natlee
18-01-2012, 09:56
:D

It comes down to a situation where there are significant strikes against a happy marriage - where all other things being equal, it is less likely that such a couple will find mutual happiness and satisfaction in companionship, upbringing of children and so on. It's not impossible, it's not wicked... But it's not preferable or ideal, and the long-term problems will come back to bite you down the road. Agreed 100%. I'm not saying don't even think about it, but you better be in love and in love for real to take the crap that's going to kick in, and kick in soon!

A girl I went to school with married a guy 42 (!) years older - love and all that. Yeah yeah but wait for it.. gave him two (!) children, a boy and a girl! First kids for him - his first wife couldn't have any, and most Russians aren't big on adoption. He was, and is (they're divorced now, surprise surprise!) crazy about the boy but daughters don't appeal to him, apparently.. he also gives her little money for the both of them despite being a recognized surgeon, cause he can't bear the thought of her spending any of it on herself! Ok there are assholes of all ages, and ok the age gap is a big extreme in the case but hey...