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sam.AJ
25-10-2011, 03:47
Hi Guys,
I am planing to travel to Moscow for few months.
I am dark skinned Indian guy.. just getting paranoid reading many racist attacks n stuff in Russia..

It wud be great if you give me some info abt it..

Thanks
Sam

Reyflor
25-10-2011, 12:31
I dont think so:)) I have seen Indians and Africans here and they don't bother them:)

Korotky Gennady
25-10-2011, 14:03
Sadly, racism is rampant here. The nationalist (wannabe Nazis) movement here is huge.


Maybe but the assualts on dark skinned people are very seldom here. Much more often russian nationalists groups attack the people of Central Asia and Caucasus's origin.

Tony P
25-10-2011, 14:16
Much more often russian nationalists groups attack the people of Central Asia and Caucasus's origin.

I think the "Nationalist" groups here are more concerned about people of Central Asian and Caucasus origin because their numbers (certainly in Moscow) are so large and appear to be increasing all the time.

People of Afro/Caribbean or Indian origin are not numberous and there would not be a sence of being invaded and overrun by them - as happens in many cities in UK.

Also, being few in number here, they have not taken over areas and created local reproductions of their ancestors homeland but blended in and integrated.

Korotky Gennady
25-10-2011, 14:17
What a relief! :rant:

Op... Are you from Central Asia?
:idea:

Our forum nationalist TGP wants the expats from there to be out Russia...

Korotky Gennady
25-10-2011, 14:30
Also, being few in number here, they have not taken over areas and created local reproductions of their ancestors homeland but blended in and integrated.


Just as the expats from Europe and US do ? :question:

But they occupy a few best Moscow's bars already...

How do you think what the russian nationalist youngsters will start to do when expats of west origin increase in numbers perceptibly ?

Korotky Gennady
25-10-2011, 14:44
Get drunk and cry that we are stealing all the jobs.

I never see the situation when russian nationalists were dropping tears when they thrash Central Asia's immigrants. :(

moscowmail
25-10-2011, 14:47
In my experience here, just over 12 years, Indian Nationals tend not to get any problems here, as said above, it is other ethnic groups

However, it doesn't mean you wont get problems faced by many today in Moscow

Good luck

Korotky Gennady
25-10-2011, 14:55
Easier victims.

Sounds like you speak from personal experience.

Nope. They never thrash me. Maybe my weight or angelic look saves me from to be a pretendent for beating... I don't know.

What about you ?

Korotky Gennady
25-10-2011, 15:02
Sadly for you, the "Westerners" have already taken over...

have taken over or have been taken over ?

Korotky Gennady
25-10-2011, 15:14
Taken over-

McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Chili's, Fridays, Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts... always full.


It's really impossible for me to understand you. What the hell should I be sad with this ?


Sadly for you, the "Westerners" have already taken over...

Tony P
25-10-2011, 15:30
How do you think what the russian nationalist youngsters will start to do when expats of west origin increase in numbers perceptibly ?

Firstly - most "expats of west origin' are quite similar in colour, appearance and come from similar cultural and religious backgrounds. They are generally indistinguishable by looks, dress and behaviour.
And most here try to blend in.

Secondly - Russian youngsters (and older) seem to appreciate Western products, clothes, music, food outlets, and copy Western life style thereby wanting to appear to be Western themselves. How would they not like what they aspire to be?
Apart from Drtnsnw's list above consider all the Western shop chains in Western style shopping malls and in 'expensive' Russian shopping streets. They are only there because it is profitable for them to continue to be there and 99% of their sales are to Russians.

Even Government Ministers, Assistants, Advisers etc all prefer to be driven around in Western cars than a Russian product.
But no doubt the Russian youngsters accept this in aspiring to do the same when in a position to. Presumably they currently get their Nationalistic pride from at least the flashing blue lights on top being of Russian origin - probably!

BabyFirefly
25-10-2011, 15:32
I've gotten some crap for being a foreigner, but not because of my skin tone/race... although I look European. Frankly I wouldn't come here looking Asian/African, since xenophobia and racism are common and apparently growing.

Tony P
25-10-2011, 15:43
I've gotten some crap for being a foreigner, but not because of my skin tone/race... although I look European.

In 7 years I never have. It can't be luck for so long. (And I still don't speak much Russian)

It must be the way you behaved or chosen lifestyle.

IGIT
25-10-2011, 15:55
@OP

May I ask for your purpose of visit? If it isn't a must you come then stay where you are! Pronto.

BabyFirefly
25-10-2011, 16:01
/
In 7 years I never have. It can't be luck for so long. (And I still don't speak much Russian)

It must be the way you behaved or chosen lifestyle.

Or maybe it's just that you have a different situation then I do; live in a better area, are more physically intimidating, you're in an area with more foreigners, etc... it's not always people's fault when things go wrong. I lived in a horribly crime ridden territory for half my life but wasn't the victim of serious crimes. I can't say that when it happened to someone else it was their fault.

It was because I couldn't understand (much less speak) much Russian back then. I knew enough about "Russian" behaviors and lifestyle to blend in, and I supposedly "look" Russian, but once I tried to speak or was spoken to, it was obvious I wasn't a local, and in my district I'm betting I'm of the few foreigners who's not Central Asian or African. It was nothing serious, just some comments and insults. Nothing physical. Enough to piss me off or annoy me for a while but can't say I'd go back home because of it. And they were likely the type of folk who'd be rude or insulting for any reason, and just used my being a foreigner as their particular reason. The rest of the stuff that has happened to me hasn't been related to my being a foreigner; the worst that was that some drunk/drugged guys threw some sort of explosive fire thing at my Russian boyfriend and myself (close enough to scare us but it didn't hit us)... but we had heard them talking before that and they were talking about drugs and my boyfriend was stupid enough to taunt them a bit, while I attempted to telepathically tell him to STFU.

Granted I live in a very shady area of Moscow. I've had absolutely no problems elsewhere. Like I said, even less rudeness than back at home.

xSnoofovich
25-10-2011, 16:04
In 7 years I never have. It can't be luck for so long. (And I still don't speak much Russian)

It must be the way you behaved or chosen lifestyle.

Maybe you have............... you just couldn't understand what they were saying........ ;b :doh:

Tony P
25-10-2011, 16:18
Maybe you have............... you just couldn't understand what they were saying........ ;b :doh:

LOL !
No. I am usually in the company of Russian speakers (native or very good) who I would ask if I heard something I did not understand. I understand far more than I can speak.

People usually respond (or not) to one's own demeanour.

And as per BabyFirefly's experience, I don't engage with drunks anywhere, home or away.

mrzuzzo
25-10-2011, 16:19
since xenophobia and racism are common and apparently growing.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg?1302279173

Really? Common amongst whom exactly? A thousand skinheads in a city of 12 million people? You serious?

BabyFirefly
25-10-2011, 16:35
Again, speaking from MY experience and what others have told me; and it's been nothing serious enough for me to run back home crying. If you're been fortunate enough to not have a single bad thing happen in Russia, lucky you. Do I think it's dangerous? No, I feel very safe here. Do I think it's a reason to stay home? No. Do I think it's exclusive to Russia, and that everywhere else it's better? No, the same can and does happen just about anywhere there's a large population and immigrants; racism forms and skinheads who think they have very large testicles try to scare everyone off.

Maybe I worded it wrong. English isn't my native language (not to mention I don't use it often) and I can't still express everything as clearly as I wish. But... going by some news segments alone (although I admit maybe they're just fear mongering) the skinhead problem is growing? If I'm wrong and anyone has some proof of it I want to see it because everything I've seen in western media (prior to my coming here) expresses the opposite and this is one of those things I do want to be wrong about.

But other students I know (Americans, particularly those who have never travelled, to be frank), have complained they've gotten some crap here happen to them in terms of racism/xenophobia, and it has made their adjustment much more difficult. Russia's not a very easy "first foreign country" to live in, and little things can make it more difficult to get used to it. It didn't bother me because I've lived abroad before and faced the same things and worse in Sydney, the US and the Caribbean; but when I first moved to the Caribbean and I faced the same issues it made everything feel much much worse than it was and I couldn't get used to it since it felt like it was personally against me and not the fault of a few ignorant people that were not representative of everyone there. So when I say "I wouldn't move to Russia if I'd be dark skinned" or whatever I mean.... if you will get your day ruined because of a comment from stranger, it's not a good idea to come here; even good people here are not politically correct usually and this can seem insulting/overwhelming. In fact, make that... regardless of skin color, if you don't have thick skin then living abroad isn't going to be easy.

Korotky Gennady
25-10-2011, 17:54
Secondly - Russian youngsters (and older) seem to appreciate Western products, clothes, music, food outlets, and copy Western life style thereby wanting to appear to be Western themselves. How would they not like what they aspire to be?



:)))))


I think you are a bit naive or you pretend to be naive.

Or you never have been in suberbs of Moscow and never have seen the real taugh russian youngsters.

In Lubertsy or Orehovo-Zuevo for example...

If they feel that danger for them is not in the poor central asia immigrants but in you. Their anger turn to you... and all western labour male immigrants here will become the target for the attacks of russian youngsters in the same way as tadziks or uzbeks are for them now.

How to distinguish you among crowd of sitters in the electro-train or when you are alone on the bus stop at time close to midnight ?

It's technical problem... It's not difficult to solve it. It's enough to ask you a couple questions in russian. You all speak russian awfully... including
even western media journalists who live here for ages.

So your bad knowing of russian langauge will be a good reason for russian nationalists to give you a good thrashing... to give you a lesson how you should speak russian correctly. :)))))

http://grani.ru/files/36268.jpg

Korotky Gennady
25-10-2011, 18:16
Even Government Ministers, Assistants, Advisers etc all prefer to be driven around in Western cars than a Russian product.

But no doubt the Russian youngsters accept this in aspiring to do the same when in a position to. Presumably they currently get their Nationalistic pride from at least the flashing blue lights on top being of Russian origin - probably!

What do things we discuss about... have with "blue flashing lights" on the top of mersedesses of our russian bosses ?

Don't worry... many russian nationalists hate the russian first rank officials not less than they hate the immigrants.

I red in books and in the past years young afro-americans in Harlem attacked the whites who happend by chance to wander over there despite the fact that they and their preys drived the same western cars.

http://gdb.rferl.org/EF028668-0ED4-4B01-8900-2D5BCC50CD49_mw800_mh600_s.jpg

BrandonL
25-10-2011, 23:07
Hi Guys,
I am planing to travel to Moscow for few months.
I am dark skinned Indian guy.. just getting paranoid reading many racist attacks n stuff in Russia..

It wud be great if you give me some info abt it..

Thanks
Sam

I'm half Korean, sometimes, I get funny looks, but nothing big.

Tony P
25-10-2011, 23:32
I'm half Korean, sometimes, I get funny looks, but nothing big.

Good to be back on topic - particularly after Korotky Gennady somewhat alarmist and extreme posts which, as the OP will see, are not shared by others who (significanltly) are not originally from these parts.

robertmf
26-10-2011, 00:50
:)))))
I think you are a bit naive or you pretend to be naive.

http://grani.ru/files/36268.jpg

IMhO the photo of Russians giving the nazi "salute" is demeaning to all the Russian Army Soldiers of WWII.

Korotky Gennady
26-10-2011, 02:02
Good to be back on topic - particularly after Korotky Gennady somewhat alarmist and extreme posts which, as the OP will see, are not shared by others who (significanltly) are not originally from these parts.


Tony, maybe my post was a little alarmist but two times I have seen with my own eyes as the dark skinned people were attacked by russian nationalists. One time it was in the local electro train Jaroclavl - Moscow... Second time it was in the night on the empty platform of the metro-station.

Of course i don't know how typical these things are.

Maybe these cases are exceptions from the ordinary way of life here.

Korotky Gennady
26-10-2011, 02:22
[
Russians giving the nazi "salute" is demeaning to all the Russian Army Soldiers of WWII. [/COLOR]

I remind you that it was not russian but soviet soldiers who won the Victory over Nazism.

They were communists, internationalists... They were georgians, armenians, ukrainians, russian, jews, tadjiks, uzbeks and so on...

For sure the russian nationalists couldn't win the war with Hitler.

TolkoRaz
26-10-2011, 02:36
http://grani.ru/files/36268.jpg

How many people can you see in the photo?

How many people live in Moscow?

How many people live in The Russian Federation?

I think that those people in the photo represent a very small percentage of Russians whom hold such extremist beliefs :10310:

mrzuzzo
26-10-2011, 12:06
Looks like an awful lot of d-bags to me...

Are you f*cking blind? Like 10 people out of 1000 are saluting in that photo. The others are there, but not doing a Nazi salute.

Open your eyes, skinheads in Russia are blown way out of proportion by moronic expats who have probably never even seen a skinhead in their entire lives. Yes, they exist, but they exist in every country. Russia is no different.

No need to blow sh*t out of proportion.

Raymond Virgill
26-10-2011, 12:52
I have been living here in Moscow for 1 year and I have never been met with hostility.....but then again I am 6 feet tall and 240 pounds...but I have noticed that people just mind their own business and go about their lived ...no says hello or smiles...its sad but that's Moscow.:hooray:

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 13:07
Are you f*cking blind? Like 10 people out of 1000 are saluting in that photo. The others are there, but not doing a Nazi salute.

Open your eyes, skinheads in Russia are blown way out of proportion by moronic expats who have probably never even seen a skinhead in their entire lives. Yes, they exist, but they exist in every country. Russia is no different.

No need to blow sh*t out of proportion.

While everything you say is true, it is also true that you are only wishing to see what you want to see. Here is the larger picture.

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_manej/23.jpg

and the other side of the demonstration-

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_manej/24.jpg

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 13:09
And here is what they do-

These kids were celebrating a birthday party, and just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time - Imagine the terror and fear they must have felt being the target of lynch mob.... they are only kids !

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_manej/29.jpg

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_manej/31.jpg

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 13:10
This guy looks a lot like you muzzo, (if that picture of you is really you, you do have a better nose)

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_manej/46.jpg

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 13:12
and here they are going home-

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_manej/74.jpg


but not before they get in a few more kicks-


http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_manej/75.jpg

Tony P
26-10-2011, 13:13
Not having seen the pictures or a news report surrounding them, I am unaware of their context so I wonder if the question they are answering was -

"Who wants a black Mercedes with a blue light on top?"




EDIT: Composed and Posted before seeing posts 40 onwards.

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 13:27
these guys put up stickers in the metro, and they also hold demonstrations across the city -

http://s61.radikal.ru/i173/0911/7f/6c49786ae1a8.jpg

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 13:28
yup, same flag was flown at manezh-

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_manej/10.jpg

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 13:35
This was posted a great long time ago, but if any cares-

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/330396.html

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 13:39
Not having seen the pictures or a news report surrounding them, I am unaware of their context

Here is what they are about, among other things:

Толпа скандировала: "Слава Руси, Кавказ соси!" "Россия для русских, москва для москвичей!" "В Москве хозяин русский!" "Вперед Россия, мы с тобой!" "Ебать Кавказ, ебать!" "Отсоси у всей России!"

Еще были лозунги "Долой еврейскую власть!" Стены строений на площади украсили соответствующие надписи. Стены входного вестибюля в торговый комплекс "Охотный ряд" украсила надпись "Бей жидов!"

mrzuzzo
26-10-2011, 14:22
The pictures that you posted are from the same isolated and super-rare incident, yet you're talking like that sh*t is an everyday occurrence. Shame.

Tony P
26-10-2011, 14:48
xSnoofovich

Thanks for the link.
It seems this was 11 December 2010 when I was in transit driving to UK so missed it in the news.

Can you confirm any other such gatherings in Moscow I may have missed in the intervening 320 days?

Or is it just an isolated (though disturbing) incident?

Shooters
26-10-2011, 14:52
Here is what they are about, among other things: "Вперед Россия, мы с тобой!"

I don't see where is the racism in this one, that any Russian whatever his ethnic origin should support. Showing racism where there is nothing, well....

Tony P
26-10-2011, 14:57
Hi Guys,
I am planing to travel to Moscow for few months.
I am dark skinned Indian guy.. just getting paranoid reading many racist attacks n stuff in Russia..

It wud be great if you give me some info abt it..

Thanks
Sam

Sam

Those photos do not represent everyday events in Moscow. Such gatherings occur in almost every country in the World from time to time as some people's local issues bubble to the surface - and on the day probably is inflamed by a few professional mischief makers with a wider agenda.

It happens in India too - would you therefore advise anyone not to visit that country?

Such assemblies, although rare, generally take place at known protest points in whatever country and are known about well in advance as they seek maximum publicity and turnout.

Therefore they can be avoided by being alert and aware. Sadly not like the unfortunate boys on a Birthday Party outing.

Put it in perspective.

robertmf
26-10-2011, 15:21
Such assemblies, although rare, generally take place at known protest points in whatever country and are known about well in advance as they seek maximum publicity and turnout.


Maybe so. But "perception is reality" so once the photos are in the Western press, then "bad for tourism" is the result.

Crack downs need to happen. Like moustaches said, "you don't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs".



Put it in perspective.


The USA State Dept. doesn't have any Russia travel advisories -
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/pa/pa_1766.html

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 15:36
The pictures that you posted are from the same isolated and super-rare incident, yet you're talking like that sh*t is an everyday occurrence. Shame.

everyday? ur right, its not not really like that. but u know what? just go hang out with the peoples......... and you too can get a better idea of what lurks beneath.

but -

if you dont know, and dont want to know, and more importantly, cant hear when someone tries tells you, then there is nothing to can be done.

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 15:39
I don't see where is the racism in this one, that any Russian whatever his ethnic origin should support. Showing racism where there is nothing, well....

hey shooters, i still get your crappy spam. i signed up on RT just last week under a completely new name and with a completely new email address, and got your spam advertising your crappy halloween party on the 25th.

what have you to say for yourself this time.

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 15:44
Sam

Those photos do not represent everyday events in Moscow. Such gatherings occur in almost every country in the World from time to time as some people's local issues bubble to the surface - and on the day probably is inflamed by a few professional mischief makers with a wider agenda.




That is right. They do not represent the rest of Moscow, not only on that day, but on most days in general.

Just like the OWS demonstrations haven't taken over the whole of NYC, or even more than a few blocks.

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 15:53
xSnoofovich


Can you confirm any other such gatherings in Moscow I may have missed in the intervening 320 days?


Are you looking for riots on the same magnitude? There was another incident after this one by about a week.

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/332036.html

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_kievskaya/00s.jpg

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_kievskaya/12.jpg

http://varlamov.me/img/fanati_kievskaya/20.jpg



This group does have gatherings though, such as -

April 13, 2011

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/383460.html

and this isn't a gathering, but some kind of statement like - we are here-

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/359607.html

Here are some pics from various demonstrations, such as the gather on the 31st of every month guys -

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/tag/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8B

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 16:15
The pictures that you posted are from the same isolated and super-rare incident, yet you're talking like that sh*t is an everyday occurrence. Shame.

This is the guy that organized, or was one of the 2 organizers, of the demonstration on Manezh. The entire interview is quite provocative.

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/334849.html

Ты разделяешь понятия нацизма и национализма?

Разумеется. Хотя различие это, конечно, очень зыбкое. Я бы сформулировал так: нацизм - это в первую очередь ненависть к чужакам и превосходство своей расы над другими. Национализм - это просто любовь к своей земле, к своему народу.

У тебя есть ненависть к другим расам?
Да, увы. Ненависть сия вызвана объективными причинами, в первую очередь - действиями представителей других народностей. Я очень много по миру поездил, много где жил, и много чего видел. Я вижу что конфликт условно исламского мира и белой христианской Европы повсеместен и повсеместно же болезненен. Чужие ведут себя крайне агрессивно, грубо, жестко по отношению представителям белых коренных народностей. Белая Европа несет свой тяжкий крест. Для Англии это "паки", турки для Германии, а для России "чехи", "даги", Северный Кавказ.

http://varlamov.me/img/spiker/00s.jpg

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 16:20
The flipside-
http://zyalt.livejournal.com/337224.html

Москва – для всех (Moscow for everyone except Mr.Muzzo ;b) Held on Dec 27, 2010, inn response to the riots on Dec 11, and 15. It certainly looks like more people support this cause, rather than the other one.

http://varlamov.me/img/antifa_shender/01.jpg

http://varlamov.me/img/antifa_shender/02.jpg

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 16:29
xSnoofovich

Can you confirm any other such gatherings in Moscow I may have missed in the intervening 320 days?

Or is it just an isolated (though disturbing) incident?

Here is a march/gathering/whatever you want to call it that was held on Oct 1, 2011, with the same guys that have the gold and white and black flags.

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/461477.html

http://varlamov.me/img/shestvie_nacionalistov_bd/01.jpg


http://varlamov.me/img/shestvie_nacionalistov_bd/13.jpg

http://varlamov.me/img/shestvie_nacionalistov_bd/29.jpg

robertmf
26-10-2011, 16:30
Are you looking for riots on the same magnitude? There was another incident after this one by about a week.

This group does have gatherings though, such as -

April 13, 2011

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/383460.html

and this isn't a gathering, but some kind of statement like - we are here-


:smokin: This looks more like a "flash mob". i'm not sure if flash mobs occur in Moscow. A 'mob' will form seemingly spontaneously, but actually organized (now) from twitter feeds.

Flash mob - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Flash mobs piss off local governments because the mobs do not pay for a license :7534:

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 16:34
:smokin: This looks more like a "flash mob". i'm not sure if flash mobs occur in Moscow. A 'mob' will form seemingly spontaneously, but actually organized (now) from twitter feeds.

Flash mob - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_mob)

Flash mobs piss off local governments because the mobs do not pay for a license :7534:

yayayayaya, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

we do have flash mobs here, but, from what I have seen, they are mostly fun and light-hearted.

usually they involve something that you could tell your grandma about, and not have to worry about getting slapped in return. ;b

Tony P
26-10-2011, 16:37
Are you looking for riots on the same magnitude? There was another incident after this one by about a week.

This group does have gatherings though,
OK not 320 days - 313 days ago.

The point I was trying to elicit from you was that you posted photos of a somewhat exceptional event.

Your motives, like Korotky Gennady's, are subject to some question in my mind - but that is my norm, I try to understand reasons behind actions.

It happened, I accept, but similar would not deter me from going to a country if it was relatively isolated in terms of numbers involved compared with the population and size of the city and regularity.

The fact that they all meet for a weekly beer is, to me, insignificant - I do the same with people with whom I share views or interests.

Having once been caught up in an African capital shooting in which 100 metres away, after 30 seconds earlier coming through the exact same doorway, the highly popular (but minority tribe) Vice President was assassinated and an innocent bystander wounded, I have experienced personal fear.

But I take a pragmatic view of where I am and go - as well as keep constantly aware and alert and always quietly and unobtrusively move away from what look like potential trouble.
Maybe that is why I have never had or heard a problem in 7 years here.

Shooters
26-10-2011, 16:37
hey shooters, i still get your crappy spam. i signed up on RT just last week under a completely new name and with a completely new email address, and got your spam advertising your crappy halloween party on the 25th.

what have you to say for yourself this time.

I just say that it is not true :) Unless of course the RT admin added your email address in our database, what is also impossible :)))
Now, ASSUMING that you say true (...), PM me your email and I will check.
(Dono why, I am sure you won't :))))

LOL Good to laugh in this serious thread about racism :)

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 16:49
OK not 320 days - 313 days ago.

The point I was trying to elicit from you was that you posted photos of a somewhat exceptional event.

Your motives, like Korotky Gennady's, are subject to some question in my mind - but that is my norm, I try to understand reasons behind actions.



My motives are simply to report what I have either seen or experienced.

That's all. A great many things go on this city which either seem to slip between the cracks, or fall to the way side.

For instance, LDPR had demonstrations for several days either last week, or the week before, at the park across the street from Pushkinskya Ploshad. You can probably imagine what they were saying. And granted, there were maybe only 50-100 people at any one time that were listening, the speakers were there for maybe 6-8 hours for several days. This was during the working hours, so I am not sure how many people would even have heard about it.

It seems that at least 1x a month, there is a demonstration that is held by the communists at metro station 1905. Again, not many people seem to be there at any one point in time, however, they are still organized, OMON is present, and if you wanted to get in close, you had to go thru the metal detectors.

Another case in point.

Last year in December, during those riots, I spent a lot of time near the white house. Well, as it turned out, the area surrounding the white house was blocked off, and if you wanted to get thru, you had to go thru metal detectors which were manned by OMON. Hidden around the neighborhoods there, there were maybe 10 different OMON vans, individually hidden away in the neighboorhoods, ready to respond if necessary. It was pretty scary, considering that tensions were running high at the time.

I met a guy, at that same time, that told me he took up knife-fighting specifically so he could "defend the motherland", and because leaders in the movement "recommended" it as a "necessary" skill. For the next month, whenever I saw him, he would with great pride tell me about how awesome American knives were, that they were the best in the world, and how far he was progressing in the knife fighting world. Which apparently, there are organized lessons, and leagues and even international competitions. He told me one time that some lecturers from Italy came and demonstrated their technique!

And this guy was mid-level Russian manager at a top western company !!!!!!!!!!!

robertmf
26-10-2011, 17:21
...
Another case in point.

I met a guy, at that same time, that told me he took up knife-fighting specifically so he could "defend the motherland", and because leaders in the movement "recommended" it as a "necessary" skill ...



English Language Tests, Intermediate level

ESL/EFL Test #310 "English Slang Idioms (31)", question 9

"The guy's debate speech was so ill-prepared and ineffectual that it was like bringing a ......... to a gunfight," Elliot remarked.

(a) spoon
(b) fork
(c) slingshot
(d) knife

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 17:35
Yea, i pointed that out to him, but u forget this is Russia, and although guns on the street are more common than we would like to think, you get a group of these guys together in a crowd full of chaos, and no one hears or sees anything, but all of a sudden, after the mess clears up, you start to see bodies laying around. You have a gun, and hey, then you have problems with guys with bigger guns. Easy-peasy, right?

man, there are entire blogs and how-to manuals floating around on the RuNet on how to hunt and kill kavkazi or gasterbaiteri. which weapon is best under which circumstances, how to speak to police, what not to say, how to dress, how to act before and after etc.

the people that take this stuff serious are serious people.

and a few of the groups are fairly well bank-rolled from a much higher level.

i remember a case of a top level activist, either a skinhead or a nationalist, that was murdered a few months back, and come to find out, he had several million dollars in the bank, and no one seems to know how it got there.

it was easy to know why he got killed, he knew too much.

Carl
26-10-2011, 18:21
Let's not kid ourselves folks...
Russia is an extremely racist country..almost to a governmentally sanctioned level.

To deny this is just absurd.

xSnoofovich
26-10-2011, 18:55
Back to OP,

My advice is this-

Come ! Bring money. Spend ! Meet Girls, Drink Vodka, Have Fun! Make business ! Earn Money !

You will like your time in Moscow, and enjoy all that has to offer. None of the posts above reflect the reality of the tourist, or concerns most of the citizens of this fine city, let alone businessmen on a mission to make $$$$.


Hi Guys,
I am planing to travel to Moscow for few months.
I am dark skinned Indian guy.. just getting paranoid reading many racist attacks n stuff in Russia..

It wud be great if you give me some info abt it..

Thanks
Sam

Korotky Gennady
26-10-2011, 19:34
Let's not kid ourselves folks...
Russia is an extremely racist country..almost to a governmentally sanctioned level.

To deny this is just absurd.

Carl, yes.

But many people here deny it with all their strength.

BrandonL
26-10-2011, 21:22
There is racism everywhere, don't let it deter you from coming to this wonderful country!
I've been here for almost 5 years, and I've never had a racists problem.

blurros
27-10-2011, 03:30
Unfortunaly, racism is pretty high in Russia :(

TolkoRaz
28-10-2011, 02:05
For what its worth, I received this today from the Control Risks Group (CRG):

Russia: Growing support for nationalist movement underlines risk of xenophobic violence

The Moscow city authorities on 27 October authorised the third annual ‘Russian march' of nationalist organisations and sympathisers to take place on 4 November. However, they granted permission for up to 10,000 participants to gather in Moscow's south-eastern district of Lyublino, rather than the 15,000 supporters in the centre of the city for which the organisers had applied.

The authorities have banned several nationalist movements in the last year, and have in the last few days brought criminal charges against one of the march's organisers for inciting unrest. Nevertheless, turnout at the November rally will probably be larger than the 3,000-6,000 people who have attended in the last two years. For example, opinion polls indicate that around 35% of Moscow residents support the Russian march's ethos.

Consequently, at least 10,000, and possibly 15,000, supporters are likely to join the march. The organisers have moderated the degree of their xenophobic stance to appeal more widely to the public. As such, their protest will focus on an alleged tendency for criminal behaviour by ethnic minorities and against state subsidies for the North Caucasus.

Localised scuffles with police or anti-fascist organisations may occur during the march. Although the organisers are unlikely to seek to reach the city centre or incite mass unrest, they may not retain full control over the various individual groups expected to join, some of which may make such attempts or engage in xenophobic violence. Foreign personnel should avoid public gatherings as a precaution.

Despite the moderation in stance of the mainstream movement, small independent groups of extreme right-wing ‘skinhead' youths are likely to continue to perpetrate occasional violent attacks against black people and immigrants from the North Caucasus or Central Asia in Russia's largest cities.

So far in 2011, 16 people have been killed in xenophobic attacks throughout Russia, and 90 others injured.

Swell of opinion

The march will start at Lyublino metro (subway) station and proceed to Marino metro station, where a rally and rock concert will take place. About 40 nationalist organisations are expected to participate. Opinion polls conducted by independent NGO the Levada Centre indicate that from September 2002 to September 2011 the percentage of Russians who believe that bad behaviour by minority ethnic groups creates Russian nationalism has increased from 25% to 47%.

Xenophobic crime trends

Data collected by the Sova Centre, an NGO monitoring xenophobic and nationalist trends in Russia, show that Moscow city remains that most affected by violent attacks, with seven people killed and 19 injured out of the national total of 16 killed and 90 injured since the start of the year. Immigrants from Central Asian (nine killed, 19 injured), activists of left-wing organisations (16 injured), immigrants from the Caucasus (six killed, nine injured) continue to be the primary victims.

robertmf
28-10-2011, 03:33
For what its worth, I received this today from the Control Risks Group (CRG):

Russia: Growing support for nationalist movement underlines risk of xenophobic violence

The Moscow city authorities on 27 October authorised the third annual ‘Russian march' of nationalist organisations and sympathisers to take place on 4 November.


Anything happen ? Que paso ? Что слючулась :question:

TolkoRaz
28-10-2011, 05:59
4th November has not yet occurred! :confused:

robertmf
28-10-2011, 09:00
4th November has not yet occurred! :confused:

27 October

FatAndy
28-10-2011, 10:21
2 Rob:
27th Oct City council has permitted the march. The match itself will be at 4th Nov.

2 TolkoRaz:
from September 2002 to September 2011 the percentage of Russians who believe that bad behaviour by minority ethnic groups creates Russian nationalism has increased from 25% to 47%. - it is not "beleive", it is real life. Unfortunately.
And I like this:
http://www.sova-center.ru/database/violence/?tip1=301&xfield=phenotype&yfield=y&victims=Min&show=1
"Данные приводятся без учета жертв нападений на Северном Кавказе, жертв массовых драк; бездомных, если мотив ненависти не признан следствием." :)
But the main reason is the lack (even complete abscence) of uniting national ideology and policy from the side of the state.

To OP:
The cases are rare indeed. 101 case in this year for a whole country is almost nothing. But i don't like it (from and to any side).

moscowmail
28-10-2011, 19:54
hey shooters, i still get your crappy spam. i signed up on RT just last week under a completely new name and with a completely new email address, and got your spam advertising your crappy halloween party on the 25th.

what have you to say for yourself this time.


I have just seen this

Absolutely impossible my friend, we have added ONLY names who subscribe to our site or in person here at the bar for a discount card, Seriously

FYI, I do not have any mod or admin access to RT now, I have given my shares of the site to two of the mods and asked to be removed for all admin access, why? for exactly this reason, already for about 3 weeks I think, maybe more, I did not take any lists from there or here, so we are clear

So let me state this quite clearly, we have no access to ANY databases or emails from RT or here and do not intend to take anymore from any other company, we have learned our lesson regarding lists and do not wish to have any of this crap in the future

If you or anyone receives and email from us, simply unsubscribe, this is not a way to check if emails are active, it is truly to remove you from our list, I do not want anyone hassled or feeling we are spamming, this is not the way we do business or be viewed to do so

So with respect my friend, we have mot bought your name or been given it from RT or anyone else

Maxie Max
11-11-2011, 23:03
I've been living in Moscow all of my life and I will tell you what. Russian racists are much more concerned about Tajiks and Uzbeks living in Moscow illegally. I have never seen any issues related to black people like fights or something gross, initiated by skinheads or whoever... People in subway may look at you just because we do not have too many black people here. This is because of unfamiliarity, not racism. Do not exxaggerate please and stay cool. Yes Russian are weird sometimes, :) but often foreigners have too much preconceptions about us, too. Just come over.

persian
15-11-2011, 17:57
Not having experience does not mean it is not happening ;
Indian school here in Moscow officially closes down on Hitler's Birthday ( giving out information list to parents ) as it is bigger danger for them and children!!! to be around this day .
also I have a few friends from Africa that had very bad experiences specially in metro regarding this. You may simply check with university students from Africa how Russian racist .
but it is not that much widespread to be seen every day and everywhere.
to stay safe avoid traveling at night in metro and out of city center as there is higher security level in center and at day time in metro

.

lucky33
19-11-2011, 00:15
from russia with hate

http://www.expat.ru/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=912421

FatAndy
19-11-2011, 07:26
Topic answer window is hating someone??!! 8)

FatAndy
23-11-2011, 07:18
Have they finished the investigation?

whiterussian
24-11-2011, 21:44
Go to metro station Kuzminki late at night and see how hordes of blacks from South Africa feel right at home there, drinking and screaming, picking on girls, etc. I spoke to them once and asked what are they doing here in Moscow (in a good way). They said laughing out loud, "Drinking and having fun!" (then asked me to buy them some cocktails). No racists or even police were to be found in the vicinity. I say, blacks are pretty comfortable here. Good for them.

kerwat72
25-11-2011, 03:35
Very interesting conversation with lots of info but i wonder how sam feels about coming to moscow now . I personally feel that if you have the right outlook Moscow can be a very interesting city / Experience with lots to offer :-)

Stone Cold
25-11-2011, 04:55
I will post only what I saw today with my own eyes, and nothing more. I did not read all the thread, but this actually happened here in Moscow, near Spartivnaya.

I was waiting for the crosswalk at an intersection by where I live. I looked over at the lady waiting with me. She was of "asian appearance". The light was about to turn green for us to cross when a police car came up. I figured they pegged me as a foreigner and were going to question me, but they stopped, walked past me, and went to the Asian appearing woman and ask her for documents.

She had been standing on the corner when I walked up, and as far as I could tell, did nothing to attract the police attention. They drove up after I had been standing there for about 30 seconds, so they were not following her. From all outward appearances, it was purely a random act on an Asian appearing woman. I'm not saying it was because she was Asian appearing, or it was random, but it sure had the appearance from me of being just that...a random search of an Asian woman on a street corner, waiting to cross the street.

SOS11
25-11-2011, 08:58
It's all about being at the wrong place wrong time I guess.

FatAndy
25-11-2011, 10:19
I will post only what I saw today with my own eyes, and nothing more. I did not read all the thread, but this actually happened here in Moscow, near Spartivnaya.

I was waiting for the crosswalk at an intersection by where I live. I looked over at the lady waiting with me. She was of "asian appearance". The light was about to turn green for us to cross when a police car came up. I figured they pegged me as a foreigner and were going to question me, but they stopped, walked past me, and went to the Asian appearing woman and ask her for documents.

She had been standing on the corner when I walked up, and as far as I could tell, did nothing to attract the police attention. They drove up after I had been standing there for about 30 seconds, so they were not following her. From all outward appearances, it was purely a random act on an Asian appearing woman. I'm not saying it was because she was Asian appearing, or it was random, but it sure had the appearance from me of being just that...a random search of an Asian woman on a street corner, waiting to cross the street.

And?

fidel
25-11-2011, 10:52
Sam,

When you look at it in perspective, Moscow is a metropolis like any other....you have to know where to go and where not to.....For example up to recently I would stay away from the Soho area when i was there. Generally the city center is quite foreigner freindly if you are a tourist. If you are comming here for business or education or to live, then you have to adapt like the rest of us foreigners here who are here for a reason. as much as we can talk about Moscow, we are all here because it has extremely good oppurtunities for foreigners wanting to make a living. Like any other big city in the world, if you want to go out in late at night or fratanise with drunks or hang out in reputed places where natiolists and racists hang out, then here in Moscow as well all these are available. Nevertheless, if you wish to live here temperarily or permanently, then you have to learn about the city, know where to be and where not to. Most of all I guess you should understand that you are a guest in someone else's country and it is up to you to adapt, because you will never change Moscow or any other major city to suit your every need.

It is a difficult city and country to live in, but hey, if it wasn't worth it, most of us wouldn't be here I guess. For those who keep complaining about it, I guess there isn't anywhere else better for you to live in, including HOME I guess!!!!

crazypearl4real
25-11-2011, 12:05
No, black skinned pple re no more disturbed here..

IGIT
25-11-2011, 14:00
Used to be crazy but well, shall we say "better" days are here now?

robertmf
25-11-2011, 18:27
... She was of "asian appearance". The light was about to turn green for us to cross when a police car came up. I figured they pegged me as a foreigner and were going to question me, but they stopped, walked past me, and went to the Asian appearing woman and ask her for documents.


This is "racial (or color) profiling" by the Russian police.
http://aclu.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000698

New Jersey profiling is an example
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/220/njshootings.shtml

Normally speaking the police here cannot use race/color as a reason for selective detainment/questioning. There must be "probable cause" for them to stop at random. Else, like on road DUI (drink-drive) road blocks, the police must stop everybody.

In general, racial profiling taboo has been weakened by 9/11 and subsequent laws.

TolkoRaz
25-11-2011, 19:12
No, black skinned pple re no more disturbed here..

Are you writing that 'black skinned' people are mentally(?) disturbed? :confused:

robertmf
25-11-2011, 19:39
Are you writing that 'black skinned' people are mentally(?) disturbed? :confused:


............ :p Would you say Rusmeister & drtnsnw are disturbed :question:


In context, CrazyPearl means "disturbed" in the sense of "being bothered | annoyed"

e.g., (saying to girlfriend) Don't disturb me while I am studying Russian - or else I will become (mentally) disturbed and beat you (like good peasant :))

Korotky Gennady
25-11-2011, 19:58
Sam,

When you look at it in perspective, Moscow is a metropolis like any other....you have to know where to go and where not to.....For example up to recently I would stay away from the Soho area when i was there. Generally the city center is quite foreigner freindly if you are a tourist. If you are comming here for business or education or to live, then you have to adapt like the rest of us foreigners here who are here for a reason. as much as we can talk about Moscow, we are all here because it has extremely good oppurtunities for foreigners wanting to make a living. Like any other big city in the world, if you want to go out in late at night or fratanise with drunks or hang out in reputed places where natiolists and racists hang out, then here in Moscow as well all these are available. Nevertheless, if you wish to live here temperarily or permanently, then you have to learn about the city, know where to be and where not to. Most of all I guess you should understand that you are a guest in someone else's country and it is up to you to adapt, because you will never change Moscow or any other major city to suit your every need.

It is a difficult city and country to live in, but hey, if it wasn't worth it, most of us wouldn't be here I guess. For those who keep complaining about it, I guess there isn't anywhere else better for you to live in, including HOME I guess!!!!

A strange post. Fidel, are you really an expat ? You was writing like a russian.

joostg
25-11-2011, 20:16
ok

TolkoRaz
25-11-2011, 21:46
[COLOR="DarkRed"]

Would you say drtnsnw is (are) disturbed :question:


Most definitely! :10310:

operator2002
26-11-2011, 00:29
Hi Guys,
I am planing to travel to Moscow for few months.
I am dark skinned Indian guy.. just getting paranoid reading many racist attacks n stuff in Russia..

It wud be great if you give me some info abt it..

Thanks
SamI had an aquaintace of mine - Indian guy with whom I worked several years ago in a travel company - I remember saying him that he had no problems regarding racism.
When his visa expired and the company closed he went to India and could not come back to Russia again because could not find job and get Russian visa though he wished it very much. And at that times the racism was more widespread and more fierce. Government has put at least some pressure on skinhead organizations lately - many groups brought to justice,websites closed etc.
---
Anyway I agree that the situation now is more risky for people from Caucasus and Central Asia.
Everything can happen but if you keep some basic security measures (like not to go around city in public transport or street late at night alone /not away from crowd in the outskirts / stay away from football fans groups on the days of the matches etc) - it will be probably ok.

ezik
26-11-2011, 01:02
I think that operator2002's post pretty much summarizes the situation. Not bad for a 3rd post on the forum! :) Welcome!


I had an aquaintace of mine - Indian guy with whom I worked several years ago in a travel company - I remember saying him that he had no problems regarding racism.
When his visa expired and the company closed he went to India and could not come back to Russia again because could not find job and get Russian visa though he wished it very much. And at that times the racism was more widespread and more fierce. Government has put at least some pressure on skinhead organizations lately - many groups brought to justice,websites closed etc.
---
Anyway I agree that the situation now is more risky for people from Caucasus and Central Asia.
Everything can happen but if you keep some basic security measures (like not to go around city in public transport or street late at night alone /not away from crowd in the outskirts / stay away from football fans groups on the days of the matches etc) - it will be probably ok.

martpark
26-11-2011, 01:51
A strange post. Fidel, are you really an expat ? You was writing like a russian.

I think he said he was a foreigner.

robertmf
26-11-2011, 04:18
I know that drtnsnw guy is for sure!

Do you work all night until 6am ?

whiterussian
26-11-2011, 17:55
Truthfully, I don't know what you guys are talking about. In my 7 years of living in today's Moscow I've never ever seen a single skinhead. Where are they hiding?!?! Show me one! Who knows, I may even join the party (a jest). But I simply don't see them, never has. I do see a lot of Africans, Caucasus...ian (still don't know how to call them in English), Kirgyz, Uzebk, and others (certain Russians too of course), usually in large groups and not behaving as I personally would consider decent. Am I living in a different Moscow? There's still just one Moscow in Russia, right?

Seriously though, I'm pretty sure that the danger of being attacked by some mentally disturbed individuals exists in every major city, and I agree: know where you are going in the city and at what hour and you should be fine.

robertmf
26-11-2011, 18:15
... I do see a lot of Africans, Caucasus...ian (still don't know how to call them in English), Kirgyz, Uzebk, and others (certain Russians too of course),

Caucasian Cau*ca"sian, a.
1. Of or pertaining to the Caucasus, a mountainous region
between the Black and Caspian seas.
[1913 Webster]

2. A native or inhabitant of the Caucasus, esp. a Circassian
or Georgian. pl. Caucasians
[1913 Webster]

3. A member of any of the white races of mankind.
[1913 Webster]

Caucasus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Durbsgirlie
26-11-2011, 18:19
Hi

I am from S.A and i am dark skinned. So far i have not experienced any out right racism. But they say it is different for guys than it is for girls. I think you just got to be careful and move around in a group. I would not suggest going out at night alone though. I had an encounter that i want to forget. The worst part about that is that it was not a white Russian (that i could have accepted), it was someone who was as foreign as me but living here for years. Like i said before you just got to be careful.....Hope this helps : )

Durbsgirlie

kerwat72
26-11-2011, 19:10
Monday - Thursday from 6pm until midnight
Friday and Saturday from 6pm until 6am

And not only does he work these hours , He is a very kind Barman who makes sure his customers get home safely after a big drinking sesh ! :-) lol tks Drtsnw x

FatAndy
28-11-2011, 16:03
kerwat72, robertmf, drtnsnw
Lady and gentlemen,
Pls keep topic ;)

sam.AJ
01-12-2011, 11:15
Hi Guys.. Thank you very much for showing me around moscow n its culture n gangs.. ;-) very interesting.. but I am not going there real soon.. but I plan travel there as tourist..

Peace..
Sam

lucky33
02-12-2011, 19:58
Racism in Russia - YouTube

chartreuse
04-12-2011, 09:11
Yeah, right. As I said before, show me one of those guys. I've never seen them (other than on your video).

musampa
13-05-2012, 06:11
Shocking images, watched some documentaries and read some stories about razis in Russia.

I'm extremely sorry for those members of family were brutally murdured by 'Great White Nation'!

I even dont see any way out this fatal deadlock for the short-term perspective. It probably will take few generations and hard work from civil society, government, church and other actors this level of hatred to be reduced.

mrzuzzo
13-05-2012, 19:47
It will take more understanding of the local culture from the "minorities" who come here and act like they own this city, first and foremost.

Jack17
13-05-2012, 20:52
like they own this city

What do you mean?

mrzuzzo
13-05-2012, 21:35
What do you mean?

What I mean is stop shooting guns at weddings, stop harassing girls who dress nice, stop dancing their national dance in sacred places in Moscow like red square, stop acting like idiots on the road, stop threatening to kill everyone and their families because they feel "disrespected", etc etc

musampa
14-05-2012, 00:40
What I mean is stop shooting guns at weddings, stop harassing girls who dress nice, stop dancing their national dance in sacred places in Moscow like red square, stop acting like idiots on the road, stop threatening to kill everyone and their families because they feel "disrespected", etc etc

are u kidding? In civilized society supreme rule should be the 'rule of law' and not the subjective judgements some empty heads who has no identity in life except being Russian.

If they are shooting gun on weddings it is fault of government who could not (or does not want to) control weapons.

I did not know if Red Square was a saint place :D, what is wrong with dances? if they violate the law, prosecute them according to the civilized rules not according to wild-stupid rules.

Shooters
14-05-2012, 01:22
if they violate the law, prosecute them according to the civilized rules not according to wild-stupid rules.

Exactly, and "shooting guns at weddings, harassing girls who dress nice, dancing their national dance in sacred places in Moscow like red square, acting like idiots on the road, threatening to kill everyone and their families because they feel "disrespected"" IS indeed wild-stupid rules to which any non-wild person should fight.

By "Sacred place" Zuzzo probably did not want to mention the religious aspect of the word, but the Red Square is one specific place of Russia that must be respected as a symbol of Russia. But it is a fact that RESPECT for a category of people is a word they use every hour or so for them, but that they do not apply regarding others. And ss often in today's world, racism comes in reaction of ... wild-stupid rules from people who do not respect others.

To speak more clearly (and risking to begin a new insults wave, about which I really do not care!), when people from our Southern Republics will have a better, more correct and respectful attitude in Moscow (as we are speaking about Moscow here), ethnic Russians (living in Moscow) will be more tolerant.

sakashdeep
14-05-2012, 09:30
I am an indian DSGuy myself , this is surely not Holland or Denmark when it comes to tolerence but its not as bad as you hear sometimes , like the other people said its generally against people from other soviet republics ... but we look quite similar. But generally if you forget that Russians in general are not the most happy and smiling people in the world ( I did not say they are bad , in fact they are great guys and gals ) its generally a safe place to move around.