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Artem
17-11-2003, 21:56
BACK PAGE - FIRST SECTION: Yukos workers shed few tears for jailed ex-boss

By Arkady Ostrovsky
Financial Times; Nov 17, 2003

Sympathy for Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Russia's imprisoned oil magnate, is in short supply among workers in the bleak Siberian town of Nefteyugansk, the main production site of the Yukos oil company.

Ivan Stepanovich, a drilling master at Pravdinsk oil field, says he is angry with Russia's richest man, who was arrested last month on charges of fraud and tax evasion.

"I am paid Rbs13,000 (Ј258) a month and live in a one bedroom flat with a sick wife and two children. Everyone talks about his charity but we have not seen much of it here. The best thing he has done for us is this uniform," he says pointing to his ear-flapped Chinese-made hat with a Yukos logo.

Earlier this month, Mr Khodorkovsky resigned as the chief executive of Yukos in what he described as an attempt to protect his company. He promised "to give all my strength to my country - Russia - in the great future of which I firmly believe". But the workers in Nefteyugansk are doubtful.

While in the eyes of many western investors Mr Khodorkovsky is viewed as a new breed of businessman and a champion of transparency and corporate governance, his own workers in Nefteyugansk, a company town built on the marshes of the Taiga forest, may need more convincing. Few of them give much thought to a political battle between the Kremlin and Mr Khodorkovsky. A recent opinion poll showed a vast majority in Nefteyugansk considered the arrest "an attempt to restore order" rather than a slide towards a totalitarian regime.

As more workers gather in a concrete Soviet-style building ready to go out to an oil field where the temperature has dropped to minus 30 degrees, the anger builds up.

"We have been treated like slaves. Why should we be sympathetic to him when he has $8bn and we can hardly feed our families?" says Gennady Paznikov.

Mr Khodorkovsky has never been particularly popular with his workers but despite their harsh words few feel joy or find justice in his arrest.

"We are not going to live any better just because they put him in prison. At least we had some stability. Now we don't even know what is going to happen to us," says Sergei Nikolaevich.

The lives of Yukos workers have improved compared with five years ago, when salaries were delayed for several months and workers were paid Rbs100 a day, barely enough to survive.

"There were daily demonstrations here against Yukos and Khodorkovsky. Workers were ready to go on strike. The town was dying," says Andrei Belokon, a journalist in Nefteyugansk.

Since then, property prices have risen four-fold and new buildings have sprung up. A night-time entertainment centre with restaurants, a bar, a casino and a bowling hall opened in September - though few of Yukos's own workers can afford to lose much money in the casino or have much energy to roll the balls.

Yukos is sponsoring a local school programme, subsidising mortgages for workers and helping relocate pensioners to more friendly climates. Sergei Kudriashov, head of Yugansneftegas, credits Mr Khodorkovsky for building Russia's best system of corporate governance in the country. "He has really turned this company around," Mr Kudriashov says.

But Vladimir Podgursky, who works at Priobskoe oil field, one of the largest in Yukos, says the company is squeezing its workers and its oil wells dry. The doubling of production is more the result of an aggressive exploitation of existing wells than of new drilling, he says.

"We pump out twice as much oil from every well as we used to before. But all this means is that in 5-10 years, there will be nothing left here apart from a mound of rusty metal," he says.

The complaints of Yukos workers are intensified by the contrast between Nefteyugansk and the neighbouring oil town of Surgut, where workers are paid almost twice as much and standards of living are higher.

Surgut is home to Surgutneftegaz, an oil company run by Vladimir Bogdanov, a publicity-shy oilman who has kept the company intact since Soviet days.

In the late 1990s hundreds of workers moved from Yukos to Surgut. "We would have all gone to work to Surgut but they don't need any more people there," one worker says.

Mr Bogdanov, who in the west has the image of an awkward red director, is a rare example of a Russian boss popular with his workers. Rushan Gabdrakmanov found a job at Surgut. "Coming here was like coming to a different country. There is more stability and the pay is better. Every holiday we raise a toast to Bogdanov."

Mr Khodorkovsky may have to work hard to persuade his workers to raise a toast to him.

Jet
17-11-2003, 22:06
Wow, i will read everything later

natalia_apple
17-11-2003, 22:20
its unbelievable how much we LOVE oligarchs here in Russia,
....a nation of masochists,
loving people who illegally took hold of all the natural resources...
...and those laments in the papers: "Ah, poor Hodorkovsky can't keep his diet in prison!"
...can't have black caviar daily, but only every other day, eh?
...but, so many people in our country actually CAN keep their diet of potatoes and bread only!

Sunstorm
18-11-2003, 13:20
Dear Natalia.... when will you ever give up your lumpen mentality....
The fact that Mr.K. was having black caviar for breakfast daily doesn't make him guilty for the fact that huge amount of people prefer potatoes with bread. After all, he is a businessman, not Mother Theresa

natalia_apple
18-11-2003, 13:24
just proves my words said above

Ned Kelly
18-11-2003, 13:37
I think that should nationalise all of the oil, gas and natural resource companies, put all of their profits in a big bank, and distribute all of the profit each year to each of Russia's 144mn people.

kniga
18-11-2003, 18:53
Ned Kelly,

$5 billion in profits divided among 250 million Russian citizens would give them $20 apiece, hardly raising their standard of living. And then the state would run these industries and I believe there is sufficient historical evidence in this country to show where THAT leads...

ronymo
18-11-2003, 21:09
it is very popular and politically correct to say the oligarchs made their money illegally. i am not saying they didn't. i am saying: a. we don't REALLY know (at least, i and most of the people i know personally... maybe one of you guys out there DOES); b. innocent until proven guilty? c. at the time, may we all remember, the situation was kind of messy, to say the least. what was legal at the time is not entirely clear, but quite possibly, what they did WAS actually legal at the time, even if it may not be legal today (which, as i repeat, we don't know yet) or is not up to "western" standards of decency/economic fair play/ etc. so... my somewhat convoluted point is, yes, it's nice to sneer at rich people and their sad fate, but let's not go overboard here.

Ned Kelly
18-11-2003, 21:13
Kniga you old CIA dog, one million bureaucrats will have stolen $5 million apiece before a kopek reaches anyone:p

Ned Kelly
18-11-2003, 21:15
come to think of it, that implies some sense of decency among the chinovniki...make that 5 bureaucrats with $1 billion each.

kniga
18-11-2003, 21:16
ronymo,

And your point would be?

kniga
18-11-2003, 21:36
Ned Kelly,

Yeah, you're right, of course, and when I reread the earlier post I saw that I needed to readjust my distribution from $20 apiece to $35 apiece. Still, my point was that small change in the hands of the many at the price of re-nationalizing these industries would be a disaster.

The oligarchs have already stolen the patrimony of the Russian people, and like Humpty Dumpty, it is never to be put back together again. The morally least tasteful thing to do aided by the pull of Putin's political power along with the River of Time, is to allow the oligarchs to run the industries they have plundered from the people with the hopes that the concentration of money and power in the hands of those capable of stealing it in the first place will ultimately prove more beneficial to the populace at large.

And I resent you calling me an old dog... :-)

natalia_apple
19-11-2003, 00:30
Originally posted by ronymo
, it's nice to sneer at rich people and their sad fate, but let's not go overboard here.

they shouldnt be sneered at, but punished for what they did,
for the things that HAVE been proved
...doubt that it's possible as the legal system in Russia is so corrupt

sad fate? or, c'mon, even behind the bars Khodorkovsky is much more comfortable than many people in Russia, for instance, in the Far East

natalia_apple
19-11-2003, 00:31
Originally posted by kniga
an old dog... :-)

Ned, it was not nice of you

kniga
19-11-2003, 00:40
Lioness,

Ned Kelly's remark was not an insult, it is just a very American expression meaning more like "морской волк". :-) The second part of my reply is another American subtlety where I "admonished" him for calling me "an old dog," but purposely left of the part about the CIA. I can assure you that Ned understood my reply perfectly.

But, thank you for defending me!

natalia_apple
19-11-2003, 00:44
...adore the language and the culture behind it!

kniga
19-11-2003, 00:51
Lioness,

You are up very late, but are also very gracious! :-)

natalia_apple
19-11-2003, 00:59
I'm also an owl

kniga
19-11-2003, 01:05
Ah, the Owl and the Pussycat!

natalia_apple
19-11-2003, 01:09
and the Apple and the Lioness

kniga
19-11-2003, 01:13
So much to do, so little time! I have a book that is calling to me to read, so I bid you good night, Natalia_Apple_Lioness! :-)

Intourist
19-11-2003, 09:15
Originally posted by kniga
Ned Kelly,

$5 billion in profits divided among 250 million Russian citizens would give them $20 apiece, hardly raising their standard of living. And then the state would run these industries and I believe there is sufficient historical evidence in this country to show where THAT leads...

Knigochka,

Gotta disagree with you. First, $5 Billion is a tad bit less than the worth of, "all of the oil, gas and natural resource companies" as Ned Kelly stated. Actually, if you believe that only Yukos made just $5bill, than you place far higher trust in business and Khodorkovsky than I do. What percentage 5 bills is of the real amount they stashed offshore, I can't say, but you'd have to guess this is at least two or three times less than actual profit to come in line with standard operating practice for Russia.

Let's return to Ned Kelly's statement on re-nationalizing, though, for a second. He mentioned ALL of the natural resource and oil and gas companies etc. Let's say that each of them (TNK, Sibneft, Yukos, Gazprom, Norilsk, Lukoil, etc) makes that $5 bill. Now you're starting to make some money. See the following quote from "The Russia You've Never Met" for a shocking correction on the total worth of ALL these companies:

"Among the choice plums kept off of the voucher auction block were Russia's biggest money makers: oil, precious metals, natural gas, gold, and diamonds. The classic example is Gazprom, the Russian natural gas monopoly once headed by Prime Minister Chernomyrdin. Gazprom's wealth is staggering: The standard estimate put forward by Gazprom managers and by Western experts is from $250 billion to $950 billion.

If Gazprom had been privatized in accordance with the stated goals of the voucher program using equal opportunity to create millions of owners and not just a few millionaires Russia might today be an entirely different place. The government could have divided Gazprom among the nation's 148 million people, one Gazprom share per voucher. Assume that the stock value indeed reflects the company value (which is the way it is supposed to work in the textbooks, even if real life is less predictable), and each voucher would have been worth somewhere between $1,700 and $6,400. For a family of three, that would have been $5,100 to $19,200 in stock, to say nothing of dividends.53 Creating that sort of wealth for 148 million people (and not just 41 million) would indeed have been something to brag about.54 Imagine if roughly the same approach had been rolled out through the other crown jewels of Russian industry the massive oil companies such as LUKOIL and Yukos, the metals giants such as Norilsk Nickel, the telephone giants such as Svyazinvest, the diamond mines and the gold mines, all of which were protected from voucher privatization. Assuming a truly liquid trade in shares on a vibrant stock market, the world would no longer have been looking at Russians with pity, but with envy. Russia would have created overnight a middle class whose consumer appetites would have fueled an economic revival. "

Compelling, ain't it ? I can send anyone who's interested the full article by Matt Bivens and Jonas Bernstein. PM me.

kniga
19-11-2003, 09:44
Intourist,

You have done your homework well and I do not dispute anything that you have outlined here. The point I was trying to make in a shorthand fashion was that no matter how ideal it would be for the Russian people all to get an equal slice of the national treasures' pie, that is about as likely as communism making all of them equal. I remember in the dying days of the Soviet Union seeing packs of cigarettes for sale on the streets of Moscow with the infamous black eagle stamp indicating that they were part of a shipment of "Humanitarian Aid," a term that came to be one of scorn and derision because Ivan Ivanovich in the street knew that it was all being siphoned off by corrupt government officials and sold instead of given to the intended recipients.

If there really were a mechanism for the fair and equitable sharing of Russia's great wealth, the Soviet Union might yet be in existence. But greedy, corrupt people interfere with such a utopian ideal, and it would seem that only a Man on Horseback could seize control and make the sweeping changes to Russian governance required to return the country's patrimony to its rightful owners. Many are afraid that Putin may be that man, and with good reason: the Man on Horseback brings relief from societal disorder with his iron fist, but only at the price of personal freedom. It is a choice hankered for by many old enough to remember the social order of the USSR, but a bad trade-off in the eyes of most who have had the privilege of living in the laissez-faire atmosphere of the U.S.

Intourist
19-11-2003, 11:08
Knig,

I'm not necessarily advocating the nationalization of these assets nor saying that the ideas expressed above would be easily achieved, but it seems somewhat defeatist (a Russian national trait ?) to pass off what could have been one of history's greatest and most successful transfers and redistribution of wealth to a shrug of the shoulders and a condemnation of Russia's corrupt political elite, saying "it could never happen".

Look at housing privatization, for example. Millions of ordinary Russian suddenly found themselves in possession of apartments sometimes worth hundreds of thousand of dollars; something that's partially fueled a now over-priced buy/sell apartment market for at least ten years and it didn't require the slightest gentle tap from an iron fist.

You can begin to see the justification for the Yukos attack when you calculate just how big an opportunity was truly blown, and how royally this country was literally robbed. I think N. Kelly's original comments are closer to the issue at hand than a lot care to think.

Cheers,
Intour

kniga
19-11-2003, 12:39
Intour,

I think Ned Kelly's notion, "I think that should nationalise all of the oil, gas and natural resource companies, put all of their profits in a big bank, and distribute all of the profit each year to each of Russia's 144mn people," is both ideal and idealistic, but too facile because the devil is in the details of how to effect such a herculean project.

Secondly, even if this were somehow to be accomplished equitably, it would perforce mean that the government would once again be in charge of running these re-nationalized industries and the Soviet government spent 74 years demonstrating that they could not do so. It is hard to imagine that the present Russian government headed by an ex-KGB colonel, who is struggling to balance the needs of a non-Soviet state with the fait accompli of the oligarchs now controlling those assets plus his own need to gain control over the mechanisms of governance, is likely to be any better at running these huge industries.

The privatization of Russian housing was a miracle that most likely occurred because none of the oligarchs could figure out how to seize all the housing of Russia, a much greater task than seizing assets they already controlled in most cases. Still, there were terrible abuses as the petty crooks forced pensioners out onto the streets fraudulently as well as swindled many citizens out of their vouchers.

Your lament that the oligarchs commited clear crimes against Russian society goes mainly without challenge except by those who like to quote "innocent until proven guilty" and other niceties that have nothing to do with the real world. However, your lament is no more likely to be redressed than the Palestinian Arabs are likely to get their confiscated homes in Jerusalem back from the Israelis or the American Indians are to regain their tribal lands stolen by Americans. History marches on and leaves the losers in the dust, a sad but ineluctable fact of life.

Intourist
19-11-2003, 13:21
Knig,

At the end of the day, your guess is truly as good as mine as to the feasibility of such an undertaking. This country's accomplished weirder things, though, some on almost equally large scales.

As to the likelihood of its ever being addressed, I mean, isn't that why were discussing it to begin with ? I'd assert that recent events have certainly given much of the Western and Russian world reason to pause and consider it. With Misha and the gang chillin' in the pokey, nationalization DOES look a far lot more plausible than it ever used to before.

Regards,
Intour

Missionary
19-11-2003, 13:27
Intourist,

Do you really think that if you split up all of that stock amongst 148 million Russians, as you stated in one of your above posts, that the companies would be worth that today? If you put stocks in all of these peoples hands, you are putting control of these companies in all of these peoples hands. If this was done, I think, and this is only my humble opinion, but I think that these companies would have tanked. All of them.

Intourist
19-11-2003, 13:40
Originally posted by Missionary
Intourist,

Do you really think that if you split up all of that stock amongst 148 million Russians, as you stated in one of your above posts, that the companies would be worth that today? If you put stocks in all of these peoples hands, you are putting control of these companies in all of these peoples hands. If this was done, I think, and this is only my humble opinion, but I think that these companies would have tanked. All of them.

Missionary,

I didn't state it. It was a quote from an amazing article by a former editor of The Moscow Times on corruption during the early 90's. One of the definitive pieces, in my opinion.

Second, how would having shareholders tank these companies. Do you own stock ?

Regards,
Intourist

kniga
19-11-2003, 13:41
Intour,

Yeah, you're right that re-nationalization of industries is brighter on the radar scope than before President Putin came up with what Al Gore would call a "risky scheme" to go after the Lukos Gang. But after the elections are over and all this political brinksmanship is past, I think things will settle down however Putin thinks things will be the safest for him in maintaining his power. Right now, all of this is about the politics of getting reelected, although I think Putin is playing with fire in the process.

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 13:50
Read this before you comment. I think it's the best article on the issue I've come across, superb analysis.

http://www.exile.ru/178/178050001.html

kniga
19-11-2003, 14:20
Ned Kelly,

Good article that expansively makes my point that this whole deal is about power politics and Putin's reelection strategy. But you have found a gem of an explanation that is hard to refute if one buys the "simpler is better" approach to explanations of things Russian.

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 14:22
It's his explanation, but I think there's a lot of logic to it.

kniga
19-11-2003, 14:33
Fair dinkum!

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 14:44
You speak a lot of languages young man but while your knowledge of Australian vocabulary is excellent, your understanding needs a tweak;) Fair dunkum means genuine, sincere, serious, and is usually a term reserved for someone's outlook/action. It was originally the name for Australian soldiers who volunteered to serve in first world war after Gallipoli.

I must admit, I've never heard it in normal conversation, except Mr Bush (jokingly) and our tawdry prime minister, who has wrapped himself so tightly in the flag that he sometimes seems to be attempting a sort of living mummification.

kniga
19-11-2003, 15:29
Well, I intended the aforementioned sentiments towards you and your commentary, but my ear for 'Strain is more than a bit rusty. When my father worked in Australia (a WWII vet), he said they were the last people on the planet who had not forgotten what the Americans had done to help defend Australia, and I have always had a soft spot for you Aussies, especially after I served with some of your troops. But as the grandson of one of my Aussie friends say, "No one calls anyone "cobber" anymore," so I clearly need an update on the proper use of your distinctive variant of English.

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 15:53
well, they're really nice sentiments, and you guys and the alliance are very popular in Aus.

on the other stuff, it's a bit like fosters, the only people who drink it in australia are tourists;)

kniga
19-11-2003, 15:59
How about K.B. Tooth's, or is that also strictly for export?

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 16:04
I'm from the south and Tooth's is a NSW beer. The brewery was taken over by an Australian version of a Russian oligarch in the late 80s and I've never really heard or seen it since (funnily, that same businessman also spent time in jail in the 90s).

I tend to drink Victoria Bitter, the local Stary Melnik, however when I'm hope in Adelaide I only ever drink Cooper's Oale or Sparkling Ale, which is God's own nectar;)

kniga
19-11-2003, 16:07
I haven't seen any of the aformentioned brews in the States. More's the pity.

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 16:17
Honestly, I haven't enjoyed either of them for nearly five years, but I am going to set that right in December when I go home. I want to fill a swimming pool with Pale Ale and dive in every hour or so.

kniga
19-11-2003, 17:09
Gpoing home permanently or just for a visit...or until they run out of Pale Ale?

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 17:18
no, just to visit...though i'll give the drinking them dry part a fair whack.

kniga
19-11-2003, 17:32
Me, too, home for the holidays and then back to the snowstorms.

sfjohns67
19-11-2003, 17:35
Ned,

Any chance you might be willing to bring back a few samples of local beer? I would be happy stand part of your at-home drinking tab in exchange for 5-6 bottles of the local when you come back. Never tried anything except Foster's, which I always did suspect (as you pointed out) was Australia's version of Budweiser, perhaps the most vile piss ever to be mis-labeled as beer.

Kniga, help me out here and throw in stakes with me?

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 17:37
the difference though is that where i'm going it's 39 degrees at present, so it'll be snow => sun and surf=> snow....like a longish banya.

Aprill
19-11-2003, 17:53
ah, banya...*a dreaming sigh*

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 18:03
naked with girls [also sigh]
oops, forgot we're in information.

marus
19-11-2003, 18:18
ALL these guys should be arrested and locked up,their assets confiscated and the wealth they have accumulated by by devious means,publicly distributed to decent but needy men,women and children who they effectively stole it from in the first place-and I know there are MILLIONS OF THEM!Then the Americans and other multi-nationals should stop gloating over Russias pitiful reality,hoping to grab some of its assets for themselves,as they are equally to blame for for the current plight of the place by supporting Yeltsin and his cronies!Sorry,but under present circumstances,Russias oil and natural resources should be nationalised,capital flight prevented,even if it means restricting foreign travel for a few years,and a programme of genuine social welfare and renewal implemented by a coalition goverment of intellectuals,economists and other intelligent people such as Yavlinsky etc.Putin should stop controlling the media and persecuting other people who disagree with him and disband the "soloviki"
Just a Utopian dream??Maybe,but Russia is heading nowhere at present,except towards dictatorship,repression and more misery!

Ned Kelly
19-11-2003, 18:30
you should get off the computer and back to washing dishes.

kniga
19-11-2003, 23:31
jfjohs67,

Yeah, I'll help you out with the remuneration for a split of the six-pack of the local Aussie beer if Ned Kelly feels like dragging that much weight half way around the world.

Ned, what would you like from America, if anything, that we might bring back to you?

natalia_apple
19-11-2003, 23:32
I'm not Ned, but I would like peanut butter

kniga
19-11-2003, 23:38
Marus,

You're 50 years old and still spouting that socialist pap? It's been tried, mate, and it doesn't work. Not in Russia, not in the UK, not in Germany, France, Italy, Sweden and anywhere else where the dreamers and schemers get together to "make things better for the people". Want to make the world a little better place? Go down to your local veterans' hospital or old soldiers' home and spend an afternoon reading to a blind vet. When you've done something more useful than read "The Guardian" and write sophmoric prose, maybe somebody will listen to you.

kniga
19-11-2003, 23:40
Lioness,

You can get American peanut butter right here in Moscow!

natalia_apple
19-11-2003, 23:45
and peanutbutter candy?

machine
19-11-2003, 23:47
Originally posted by marus
ALL these guys should be arrested and locked up,their assets confiscated and the wealth they have accumulated by by devious means,publicly distributed to decent but needy men,women and children who they effectively stole it from in the first place-and I know there are MILLIONS OF THEM!Then the Americans and other multi-nationals should stop gloating over Russias pitiful reality,hoping to grab some of its assets for themselves,as they are equally to blame for for the current plight of the place by supporting Yeltsin and his cronies!Sorry,but under present circumstances,Russias oil and natural resources should be nationalised,capital flight prevented,even if it means restricting foreign travel for a few years,and a programme of genuine social welfare and renewal implemented by a coalition goverment of intellectuals,economists and other intelligent people such as Yavlinsky etc.Putin should stop controlling the media and persecuting other people who disagree with him and disband the "soloviki"
Just a Utopian dream??Maybe,but Russia is heading nowhere at present,except towards dictatorship,repression and more misery!

Yavlinski should be arrested and locked up, his assets confiscated and the wealth he have accumulated by by devious means,publicly distributed to decent but needy men,women and children who he effectively stole it from in the first place-and I know there are MILLIONS OF THEM!

http://www.compromat.ru/main/yavlinskiy/syn.htm
http://www.compromat.ru/main/yavlinskiy/krysha.htm
http://www.compromat.ru/main/yavlinskiy/drobinin.htm

natalia_apple
19-11-2003, 23:49
Machinka!
Now I have a chance to tell you how much I'm impressed by your new avatar!

machine
19-11-2003, 23:51
You like blue eyes, don't you?
But thanks!

natalia_apple
19-11-2003, 23:53
I do, especially THIS colour

machine
19-11-2003, 23:58
Well... I'm flattered;)

kniga
19-11-2003, 23:58
Lioness,

You mean like "Reese's Pieces"? Well, I haven't see that delicacy here.

Jet
20-11-2003, 00:00
Machina, what do u think about Hakamada running for presidency in Russia?

natalia_apple
20-11-2003, 00:01
I got a parcel from my friend in the US, but I've already eaten all of them....
So, well, though I'm not Ned, but....

machine
20-11-2003, 00:02
Originally posted by Jet Li
Machina, what do u think about Hakamada running for presidency in Russia?

Pathetic...she'll never make it. I don't even know who to vote for...they all seem to be either crooks or idiots to me.

kniga
20-11-2003, 00:03
Lioness,

I'll talk to Santa Claus about it...:-)

Jet
20-11-2003, 00:07
Machine, that's their job, its called a politician, look at Bush

machine
20-11-2003, 00:13
I know...I guess I'll have to vote for the least of the evil...just haven't decided yet who might it be.
Ahhh, the hell with them all. G'night guys!

Ned Kelly
20-11-2003, 07:34
I'll see what I can do about the six-pack kniga ;)

kniga
20-11-2003, 09:21
Now, that's what I'd say was "fair dinkum"! Would I be wrong?

Ned Kelly
20-11-2003, 10:39
:p you'd say: if you're fair dunkum that'd be great!

In general though it's just a case of trying to spread the joys of the land down under.

kniga
20-11-2003, 12:19
If you're fair dinkum that WOULD be great! The offer for something unique from the States still stands.