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FlakeySnowballer
01-06-2011, 20:30
Hypothetically being in the USA and trying to download so-named free content (from torrents for example) or cheating using cracks or cracked content on my PC, can i do it without penalty from my provider?

FatAndy
01-06-2011, 20:35
:mad: What a shame!

FlakeySnowballer
01-06-2011, 20:42
What exactly?

FatAndy
01-06-2011, 21:53
trying to download so-named free content (from torrents for example) or cheating using cracks or cracked content on my PC


What exactly?

sweetfart
01-06-2011, 22:15
The internet providers won't do anything to you. It's the company of whatever software you're downloading that would have to find out (don't know how they do) and then press charges. And it depends if the content is copyrighted (if it's movie or something, it probably is). So technically it is illegal, it's just a matter of whether the service you're using to download it will get you caught. I honestly don't know how well torrents work with that.

The biggest downfall to free downloads are that you are risking getting a virus. I have a Mac (less susceptible to viruses) but I still don't download because I'm afraid of getting that rare virus that IS written for Macs. Sometimes even anti-virus software can't catch them.

Remington
01-06-2011, 23:07
Internet providers don't police the activities online but if the movie/music/software companies catches someone downloading illegal contents using torrent. They can contact the Internet provider about the illegal activities on their network and the offender's account could be cancelled. Also the offender could be sued by the company.

I know several people including myself in US who have been warned by the Internet providers after they were caught using torrent to download copyrighted materials. They were warned to stop or further actions will be taken against them.

The police or FBI do monitor the Internet to find dangerous offenders and bring them to justice. So much for the Patriot Act.

The only way to download the contents in US is to use Rapidshare, Hotfile, etc. while the IP address is not revealed to the copyright holders or the authorities.

FlakeySnowballer
02-06-2011, 09:49
It is stealing.

No. The content are uploaded for people, at open recourses like "rutracker" and "piratebay". For example i bought a movie and afterwards want to share it with other people because this movie is quite interesting.

mrzuzzo
02-06-2011, 12:14
In the US, torrents are monitored by the RIAA and other such organizations I believe, not the government. Either way your ISP discloses who you are to them and you get a warning letter and then if you keep doing it you get taken to court.

In Canada, there is no such issue, but torrent download and upload speeds are capped at 15kb/s (IIRC) on all providers, except from 1-6am, when only the upload speed is capped. Either way, it makes torrents almost unusable.

Remington
02-06-2011, 12:26
Many movies sold in Russia are illegal anyway since majority of them are counterfeits. The same goes for computer games too. I bought a game recently for 300 rubles and it looks genuine and it cost $50 in US. It got everything including the manual and key code which worked.

Anyway... I think flakey is asking if it's okay to download something from Internet first before buying a legit copy. It's illegal until you actually own/buy the license to that copyrighted material. Each country have their own interpretation of copyright laws but the basic understanding is that if you don't have a license to the copyrighted material in any forms then it's illegal. If you have an unauthorized wallpaper, clips, snapshots or snippet of the movie then it's illegal.

Youtube have many illegal contents and you may not realize it but it's difficult for copyright holders to police everything. I've seen few copyright contents on youtube removed by the request of the copyright holders but they do come back in different forms.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 12:30
I wonder, if to watch movies and to listen to music on line free illegal then as well?

:)

Besides, when you copy smth on your PC, you do not buy smth from "a theief" (who actualy placed it for free usage, not because he wanted to sell smth).

1. So you actually do not buy "a stealing (aka shared)"| product.

2, "A thief" does not sell a good (he could bought a DVD legaly and juts share it), so there is no commercial interest.

So I am not sure that the term "stealing" can be used here and I am not sure, that it can be illegal (people can share smth they have with anybody).

But as soon as a pyrate copy distributed for money or there are other commecricla interests, it is illegal, to my opinion.

Remington
02-06-2011, 12:37
In the US, torrents are monitored by the RIAA and other such organizations I believe, not the government. Either way your ISP discloses who you are to them and you get a warning letter and then if you keep doing it you get taken to court.

In Canada, there is no such issue, but torrent download and upload speeds are capped at 15kb/s (IIRC) on all providers, except from 1-6am, when only the upload speed is capped. Either way, it makes torrents almost unusable.

Many ISPs in US and Canada are starting to cap the maximum download/upload up to 500GB a month or something like that. If it goes over the limit and they charge extra for each 1GB download or upload. That really deters anyone from trying to download/upload copyrighted materials.

MPAA and RIAA have threatened to sue or take ISP to courts if they can't police their own subscribers and that's why many ISPs are doing this. Also many ISPs are owned by the movie/tv industries which they want to protect their investments as well.

mrzuzzo
02-06-2011, 12:49
Many ISPs in US and Canada are starting to cap the maximum download/upload up to 500GB a month or something like that. If it goes over the limit and they charge extra for each 1GB download or upload. That really deters anyone from trying to download/upload copyrighted materials.

MPAA and RIAA have threatened to sue or take ISP to courts if they can't police their own subscribers and that's why many ISPs are doing this. Also many ISPs are owned by the movie/tv industries which they want to protect their investments as well.

That's true but they're doing it not only to prevent illegal downloads but to take business away from companies like Netflix. And yes, because many of them are owned by players from the industry they have a very powerful lobby in the government.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 12:50
Now this is just a game of semantics. Most of us know we are downloading copyrighted material illegally.

Yes, we know, because they (thouse who are interested in it) promote this idea.

But look, you watch TV free of charge, "take" your video recorder or DVR recorder and watch later, then pass it to your friends free of charge, then they pass it to theirs and so on.

Is it illegal?

no.

You had bought a book, read it and then give it to your neighbour, is it illegal?

BUT why torrents (free of charge) are considered differently?

Just because Internet has more audience?

What I would like to say is that it is not a user, who must be prosecuted for watching or reading published in the Internet anything, but those who:

placed the content having commercial interests but without paying fees for owners of the intellectual properties.

And sure, to copy the content does not mean automatiacally that the person uses it for commercial purpose even if he/she downloads 1000 GB for a month.

mrzuzzo
02-06-2011, 12:54
I wonder, if to watch movies and to listen to music on line free illegal then as well?

:)

Besides, when you copy smth on your PC, you do not buy smth from "a theief" (who actualy placed it for free usage, not because he wanted to sell smth).

1. So you actually do not buy "a stealing (aka shared)"| product.

2, "A thief" does not sell a good (he could bought a DVD legaly and juts share it), so there is no commercial interest.

So I am not sure that the term "stealing" can be used here and I am not sure, that it can be illegal (people can share smth they have with anybody).

But as soon as a pyrate copy distributed for money or there are other commecricla interests, it is illegal, to my opinion.

What is there not to understand?

You are stealing directly from the company which made the movie.

Instead of paying for their goods, you are taking them for free, thus stealing. And it doesn't matter how you get it. What matters is the end result - you get paid content for free.

Do you not agree that profits of film companies are decreased by illegal sharing and downloads? If they are decreased, those profits are being stolen.

How would you like it if you created something (computer program, movie, song) and wanted to make money off of it but someone went and gave it all away for free?

mrzuzzo
02-06-2011, 12:57
You had bought a book, read it and then give it to your neighbour, is it illegal?

BUT why torrents (free of charge) are considered differently?


It's one thing when you share something between a limited group of people that you know, and completely another when you put it up for billions of people (that you don't know) to download.

Remington
02-06-2011, 13:12
You had bought a book, read it and then give it to your neighbour, is it illegal?

I think you can answer this yourself.... why do we have libraries for people to read? ;)


What I would like to say is that it is not a user, who must be prosecuted for watching or reading published in the Internet anything, but those who:

placed the content having commercial interests but without paying fees for owners of the intellectual properties.

And sure, to copy the content does not mean automatiacally that the person uses it for commercial purpose even if he/she downloads 1000 GB for a month.

Anyone who upload or download illegal contents without paying for it or not have proper license should be prosecuted because they are in possession of illegal contents. When you download something using torrent and you are also uploading pieces of the illegal contents to hundred other users so that makes you a distributor of illegal contents as well. That is what torrents does... it download hundred of pieces from other users and many other users download hundred of pieces from you as well.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 13:33
It is perfectly legal to let someone borrow your CDs, it is legal to make a personal electronic copy (MP3), it is however illegal to make a copy and distribute it (ie: through a torrent). You can borrow out a book, and you can even make a copy of it, but if you make a copy of it and send it to a friend, it is considered an illegal publication, and you may be prosecuted. To sum things up, its ok to borrow your things out, its ok to make personal copys for yourself so you do not destroy the original during normal use, it is not ok, however, to make a copy in any way, to give or sell to someone else without paying royalties to the author, artist, publisher, or record company, although it is USUALLY the publisher or record company who prosecutes for this sort of thing because they are usually only in it for the money, and the artist is in it to provide a masterpiece for the whole world to enjoy.
It is not illegal to make a copy of any music that you purchase it is only against the law to give this copy away or sell it so it would be alright to let your friend borrow your original CD but it would be against the law to make a copy for them.
Using the Internet you would need to copy the CD and then make it available to others so not only you and your friend would have access others would as well which is why the record companies went after that lady from Minnesota as she was uploading music and did more than 2400 songs but was only charged with 24 counts and was found guilty of all counts against her

So to copy video from TV channel is illegal either? :)

Again, what I would like to say is that the legislation regarding Interent is not so obviouse and working;

1. I can have my own diary of LiveJournal and some consider it to be close to Mass Media, some can consider it to be my private diary but open for public if they want to read it.

In this case, I must not be prosecuted for any opinions I may have even if they are not honest, slanderous.

2. I can copy smth in order to share it with friends or people, whom I do not know even, because, I bought it smwhere, paid money for that and that is my own business, what I do with them afterwords: copy or not copy; give or not give to anybody else, "publish" (share or not share), but again it can do it untill I do not earn money from these actions.

but if "you" really want to fight agains piracy, then close torrent sites (stores) and prosecute those who earn money from these downlads directly (for money (sms, for instance) or indirectly (advertising).

Any other ideas (messages) promoted by Microsoft, Universal Studio e.t.c. is more "brainwashing" (do not use torrents, pay money for our porducts or it is you, who will be prosecuted), than smth else.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 13:42
:groan:

That is your famouse ,,,,, when you have no more arguments, as I see?

My favourite would become :boxing:

:)

but ...what for?

Remington
02-06-2011, 13:48
1. I can have my own diary of LiveJournal and some consider it to be close to Mass Media, some can consider it to be my private diary but open for public if they want to read it.

You can do whatever you want with your creative works which is copyrighted. You can sell it or give it free to anyone if you desire.


In this case, I must not be prosecuted for any opinions I may have even if they are not honest, slanderous.

Actually if the information you published is slanderous enough to get attention of someone and you can be sued or killed if you're in Russia.


2. I can copy smth in order to share it with friends or people, whom I do not know even, because, I bought it smwhere, paid money for that and that is my own business, what I do with them afterwords: copy or not copy; give or not give to anybody else, "publish" (share or not share), but again it can do it untill I do not earn money from these actions.

but if "you" really want to fight agains piracy, then close torrent sites (stores) and prosecute those who earn money from these downlads idrectly (for money (sms, for instance) or indirectly (advertising).

Any other ideas (messages) promoted by Microsoft, Universal Studio e.t.c. is more "brainwashing" (do not use torrents, pay money for our porducts or it is you, who will be prosecuted), than smth else.

It doesn't matter if you bought the movie or whatever. You do not OWN per se since its owned by the copyright holders. They grant you the license to use, view or copy it for your own personal use as long as you don't distribute it freely or commercially in any forms to a third party. That's the big difference in ownership and the rights to use it by license agreement with the copyright holders.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 13:52
It's one thing when you share something between a limited group of people that you know, and completely another when you put it up for billions of people (that you don't know) to download.

what is the difference?

Just Quantity of people?

But of you "share" the video for money on the street, but just for 100 people (give smth to your 3 friends but took 100 rur for "renting"?)

Is it legal then?

Come on!

Again, if there are any commercial interests, it must be the main criteria for any prosecution regarding piracy, to my opinion:

1. trade;
2. using fake or not-licensed products to illiminate operational costs (do you remember the case with LG in Russia, in the office of the compay in Moscow, they used some pirate programs);
3. broadasting smth in commercial areas (restaurants, hotels, aircrafts, parks and so on), though it is discussable;
and so on

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 14:12
It doesn't matter if you bought the movie or whatever. You do not OWN per se since its owned by the copyright holders. They grant you the license to use, view or copy it for your own personal use as long as you don't distribute it freely or commercially in any forms to a third party. That's the big difference in ownership and the rights to use it by license agreement with the copyright holders.

I know, that is a law, but to my opinion, this part of the law (marked with black) is more than discussable, that's why I showed my arguments, why at least me, who feel free to use free-of-charge sources, no matter these sources are provided by my friends or found in the Internet.

I feel free from the point of view of morality.

to shift responsibilties to consumers, users is not the right way to fight against piracy.

It is the same, when police arrest people for wearing fake clothes or fake bags!

:)

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 14:23
Ok tvadim, let's see if we can make this simple. I will use mrzuzzo's example.
Pretend you are a software engineer and you create a new operating system. It is the best operating system ever! You copyright it, making it yours alone. Microsoft agrees to buy it from you for 20 million US dollars, but in the course of your negotiations with Microsoft, someone uploads a copy of you system onto the internet for the whole world to use for free. So Microsoft cancelled the contract with you and you receive NO money for all your hard work.
Would this be ok with you?

Now I see arguments, no "hands up", are you learning as well?

My arguments or answer:

NO!

Piracy is not good at all.

Piracy is harmful for artists (+ their producers), designers (even for D&G) and surely for "poor" enginners (20 ML? Do you have an example).

but consumers must not take responsibilities for opportunity to find cheap or free product, but untill they have comercial interests (they can earn money)!

As for those who downloads free video on torrents sites or on their livejournal page and so on:

To preosecute users (they are consumers and users here untill they do not have commercial interests, do not earn money from that) is the same as to prosecute those who presented a fake Boss T-shirt to her bf..

:)

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 14:30
It is NOT the same as when the police arrest people for wearing fake clothes or fake bags.

It IS the same as when the policearrest people make fake clothes or fake bags or arrest the vendors who sell the fake clothes and the fake bags.

You feel free from the point of morality????
That would be like saying it is ok for a thief to steal your money because he has no moral issues with it...

The key word is "sell".

Torrent sites sell.

Users, who dounload smth without commercial interest, do not. Or proof that!

THe second part of your emotional "argument":

"That would be like saying it is ok for a thief to steal your money because he has no moral issues with it.."

Are you kidding?

Where do you see the connection between this case (your case) and piracy.

Please, think first, when you post your argument!

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 14:31
Microsoft paid 8 BILLION for Skype... Good enough example?

Who is this engineer, who got at least 1ML? :)

mrzuzzo
02-06-2011, 14:45
Downloading torrents is about the same as making fake D&G shirts and giving them away to everyone for free.

Just because you don't accept money from it doesn't morally clear you. You're still taking away from someone else's potential profits, thus you are stealing someone else's money.

Remington
02-06-2011, 15:25
One of the biggest arguments I've heard is why should we pay if they made million or billion dollars in profit. There's no grey area on what's right or wrong. The LAW says it's illegal to distribute copyrighted materials for free or profit without written consent from the copyright holders. If you don't have that permission or license then you do not have rights to do whatever you want.

For example... skype is free for anyone to use but Microsoft can change the license agreement and say that it's no longer free and everyone should pay $12 a month to use skype. It's Microsoft's prerogative to do whatever they want with it and you have no say in this matter. It's their intellectual property and they have the rights to do whatever they want with Skype. We are given permission to use their software according to their license agreement. That's why we click on the 'I agree' button on the software whenever we install something on the computer. When you click 'I agree' then you agreed not to sell, distribute or modify the software in any forms and the copyright holders reserves the rights to change the license agreement at anytime.

That's the same thing with movies when you open the DVD case, you agree not to sell or distribute the movies in any form. That's why we see FBI or Interpol warnings before the movies start on the DVD.

I'm a software engineer and I wouldn't be happy if someone stole my software and sell it or give it out for free after countless hours, months or years of work gone to waste for nothing.

It's has nothing to do with moral since it's illegal. period. If we don't have copyright protections then nobody will make movies, softwares, etc. for anyone to use and we'll be still be stuck in the stone age.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 15:27
No, you need to think. You said you have no problem breaking the law regarding downloading because you have no moral problems with it.
What is to say YOUR morals are in line with everyone else?
When you start justifying illegal actions on MORAL grounds, then you have to justify for all people, regardless of what their morals are.

To make it clear for you-
I think it is morally wrong to download copyrighted material but you think it is morally ok, so you do it.
You think it is morally wrong to steal money from people but a mugger thinks it is morally ok, so he robs you.
When you start to interpet the laws based on morals, there is no difference in these situations because they reflect INDIVIDUAL morals.

Well, now I see what I mean (sometimes it is worth explaining the logic used by you in some statement of yours indeed).

My logic is following:

1. Consumers, users should feel free to choose goods, products available on the market.

Nobody can prosecute them for availability of these free products (and using them) even from the point of view of morality;

Explain them, why they should not buy!

It is OK and if the reasons are obvious, people will stop doing that.

But again it should be their own choice.

2. Responsibilties for selling fake goods must be taken by those, who do it, but again not by consumers;

3. Companies, who suffer from piracy should fight against verndors, "channels of distribution" and so on, but not users and consumers.

And they surely should work with consumers (explain, promote the idea, that is not good, harmfull and so on)

4. Those who publish free movies in torrents sites are more considered as users/consumers, because it is not obviouse, they place smth for money;

Torrents earn indirectly, because they provide users with the place where they can do it and get profit from advertising.


my morality:

1. First of all, I watch smth online, which is not available in Russia (for example: some serials in English (in Russia they are translated or not availble);

If they are available, I would buy it here (or watched it here);

2. In the past, in music stores there was available an option, for example, when you could try (to listen to a disk to make a decision to buy it) and I hate buying smth I would not like afterwords.

Clothes, food can be touched, tried, "smelled" as for intellectual properties, it is impossible untill you buy it and insert into your CD playaer or DVD player (trailers or video clips? you know, it works sometimes indeed, but a piece of good advertising does not make a product to be good unfortunately);

So why not to provide people with such kind of options?

3. To safe money is good as well.

At least, if there are some opportunities, will you refuse good offers, samples, discounts if they offer that for you?

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 15:37
Downloading torrents is about the same as making fake D&G shirts and giving them away to everyone for free.

Just because you don't accept money from it doesn't morally clear you. You're still taking away from someone else's potential profits, thus you are stealing someone else's money.

I guess in my blood there are some drops of a lawer :) :

indirect loss of profits are not so easy detremined here, because in case of the absence of free T-shirt with D&G, there is no garantee or a proof, that people (who got these free T-Shirt) would buy originals at all.

:)

So it can clear!

:)

Willy
02-06-2011, 15:44
Well, now I see what I mean (sometimes it is worth explaining the logic used by you in some statement of yours indeed).

My logic is following:

1. Consumers, users should feel free to choose goods, products available on the market.

Nobody can prosecute them for availability of these free products (and using them) even from the point of view of morality;

Explain them, why they should not buy!

It is OK and if the reasons are obvious, people will stop doing that.

But again it should be their own choice.

2. Responsibilties for selling fake goods must be taken by those, who do it, but again not by consumers;

3. Companies, who suffer from piracy should fight against verndors, "channels of distribution" and so on, but not users and consumers.

And they surely should work with consumers (explain, promote the idea, that is not good, harmfull and so on)

4. Those who publish free movies in torrents sites are more considered as users/consumers, because it is not obviouse, they place smth for money;

Torrents earn indirectly, because they provide users with the place where they can do it and get profit from advertising.


my morality:

1. First of all, I watch smth online, which is not available in Russia (for example: some serials in English (in Russia they are translated or not availble);

If they are available, I would buy it here (or watched it here);

2. In the past, in music stores there was available an option, for example, when you could try (to listen to a disk to make a decision to buy it) and I hate buying smth I would not like afterwords.

Clothes, food can be touched, tried, "smelled" as for intellectual properties, it is impossible untill you buy it and insert into your CD playaer or DVD player (trailers or video clips? you know, it works sometimes indeed, but a piece of good advertising does not make a product to be good unfortunately);

So why not to provide people with such kind of options?

3. To safe money is good as well.

At least, if there are some opportunities, will you refuse good offers, samples, discounts if they offer that for you?



It's called receiving stolen property.

If you buy a stolen car you should be able to keep it because it wasn't you who stole it?

And yes if you go to a store and want to hear a cd before you by it you can.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 15:54
The "consumers" contribute to the problem by downloading. One of the reasons it is so expensive to go see a movie in a theater is companies have to make up these lost revenues.
Have you not noticed how as these illegal downloads have because more prevelant, ticket prices have steadily increased?
Another good example might be the people who jump the turnstiles on the metro. These people ride for free. Metro needs to make money to exist and provide better services, so they raise the prices for those who do pay.
But the people who choose not to pay think it is morally ok.
"Someone else will pay" is the usual argument.

I have used such kind of arguments "someone else will pay".

I said that if there is an availabilty of free offers, people will use it and have a right to use it.

mrzuzzo
02-06-2011, 15:57
Another good example might be the people who jump the turnstiles on the metro. These people ride for free. Metro needs to make money to exist and provide better services, so they raise the prices for those who do pay.
But the people who choose not to pay think it is morally ok.
"Someone else will pay" is the usual argument.

According to tvadim's theory, these people may otherwise walk or take other kinds of transport anyways, so indirect loss of profit is not easily determined here.

Therefore, it's morally ok (once again according to tvadim). :agree:

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 16:00
It's called receiving stolen property.

If you buy a stolen car you should be able to keep it because it wasn't you who stole it?

And yes if you go to a store and want to hear a cd before you by it you can.

different cases!

If you buy a stole car in a store or from "the owner" and you did not know, it was stollen?

Besides here there is a case of Sale and Purchaise (not using smth free of charge or sharing smth) and this is a case when the seller takes full responsibility for selling sth stolen (should return a car, return money to a buyer, to be jailed).

A buyer can not be punished untill there is a real and obviouse proof, the buyer knew that the car had been stolen.

Willy
02-06-2011, 16:02
I have used such kind of arguments "someone else will pay".

I said that if there is an availabilty of free offers, people will use it and have a right to use it.


Great we can come to your house steal everything you own and as long as we give it away for free it's okay. Please PM your adress.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 16:02
According to tvadim's theory, these people may otherwise walk or take other kinds of transport anyways, so indirect loss of profit is not easily determined here.

Therefore, it's morally ok (once again according to tvadim). :agree:

Moscow Heat impacts you so much?

:)

Willy
02-06-2011, 16:04
Moscow Hot impacts you so much?

:)


Heat Vadim, heat.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 16:05
Great we can come to your house steal everything you own and as long as we give it away for free it's okay. Please PM your adress.

If you buy smth from my house, you may distribute it free of charge... read carefully, please, what I wrote in my previous post!

But unfortunately, I do not have anything to sell to you!

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 16:06
Heat Vadim, heat.

Thanks for correction! :)

Willy
02-06-2011, 16:21
But you know downloads are illegal...



So is smokin weed but you do it.


Vadim musicians are losing a lot of money and we miss a lot of great music because it's hard to make enough money. I don't know how many really good musicians I've heard that gave up before they even really started just because sometimes it's very hard to support yourself Recording is the only way to make a good living, now you want to take that away too.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 16:34
But you know downloads are illegal...

:)

Sometimes, yes, but I am not sure:

1. at the moment I do it via the site, where there are a lot of ads. So probably (I am not sure, but why should I), the owner of the site transfers money for each downloaded piece of music.

As a customer I do not care, if they do and I should not care.

2. Once I placed a clip in youtube with pix from one of my travel, where I used George Talemann music (the 18th century composer).

Sure I was not going to take money from viewers, but my clip was banned, because Sony Intertaiment coded the record and it showed (a proof) that the piece of music used as a background was an intellectual property of one of the orchestras and their (Sony's).

So these two example (logic) are used for following statements of mine (to repeat them):

1. companies can fight against piracy if they have a will;

2. to fight against piracy in punishing consumers is ....well, let's say, strange;

3. if a customer bought smth and wants to share it with others but without commercial interests, it is his right (though at the moment, there is a law, that he does not have this right indeed);

4. a customer has a right to chose prices, products and offers on the market;

5. Companies must fight against the channel of distribution of pirate programs: points of distribution, catching illegal vendors, torrent sites and so
on together with the state, but again not against customers;

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 16:39
So is smokin weed but you do it.


Vadim musicians are losing a lot of money and we miss a lot of great music because it's hard to make enough money. I don't know how many really good musicians I've heard that gave up before they even really started just because sometimes it's very hard to support yourself Recording is the only way to make a good living, now you want to take that away too.

Willy!

I am sorry for you indeed (I mean your worries).

I do not want to take your money away (not because I am going to publish your music on youtube or on torrent sites....but why not to share it somehwere to make you more well-known?).

:)

Willy
02-06-2011, 17:04
Have you ever seen me smoke weed?
We all know what a fair weather friend you are, Willy. No matter what people have done for you in the past, your only concern is what people are doing for you today.



Sorry that's not true.

I tried to help you, but I'm not going to dick around my friends. They are very bizzy and have little time. When we were going to meet you didn't answer your phone and my friend set time aside for you when he could of been making money.

I tried to tell you more than once I don't drink if I have no place to sleep, I'm not going to be left drunk with no place to go. I have one friend now that keeps telling me how many homeless people are getting kill here in Moscow if you can't understand that I'm sorry nothing I can do but I don't want to risk my life more than I have to just to get drunk with you.

And if you mean by disagreeing with what you say is not being a friend, I don't really think so.

If by putting 500 rubles on my phone you think that you have bought a piece of me you have a small stake. I should first kiss my friends ass that gave me 15,000 rubles or the expat member that gave me 5000 rubles and PM'd people looking for a place for me to stay.

You put me in a bad way with my friend that was going to help you with your club. I could have forgot you and saved his help for myself, now as it is he may not listen to me because the last time I jerked him around. Weather you know it or not I'm a respondsible guy, I do what I say and try not to let people down when they try to help me.




Anyway everybody from the states smokes weed mrzuzzo said so, your very unamerican.


You sound like a very angry and agressive guy for no good reason or petty reasons, why?

Willy
02-06-2011, 17:07
Willy!

I am sorry for you indeed (I mean your worries).

I do not want to take your money away (not because I am going to publish your music on youtube or on torrent sites....but why not to share it somehwere to make you more well-known?).

:)



I don't have time to explain but that is just how the Russia music business screws musicians.

Maybe later.

mrzuzzo
02-06-2011, 17:31
Sorry that's not true.

I tried to help you, but I'm not going to dick around my friends. They are very bizzy and have little time. When we were going to meet you didn't answer your phone and my friend set time aside for you when he could of been making money.

I tried to tell you more than once I don't drink if I have no place to sleep, I'm not going to be left drunk with no place to go. I have one friend now that keeps telling me how many homeless people are getting kill here in Moscow if you can't understand that I'm sorry nothing I can do but I don't want to risk my life more than I have to just to get drunk with you.

And if you mean by disagreeing with what you say is not being a friend, I don't really think so.

If by putting 500 rubles on my phone you think that you have bought a piece of me you have a small stake. I should first kiss my friends ass that gave me 15,000 rubles or the expat member that gave me 5000 rubles and PM'd people looking for a place for me to stay.

You put me in a bad way with my friend that was going to help you with your club. I could have forgot you and saved his help for myself, now as it is he may not listen to me because the last time I jerked him around. Weather you know it or not I'm a respondsible guy, I do what I say and try not to let people down when they try to help me.




Anyway everybody from the states smokes weed mrzuzzo said so, your very unamerican.


You sound like a very angry and agressive guy for no good reason or petty reasons, why?

You sound very complexed. Why do you always talk about yourself?

Are you in Russia on a PRP? Who is letting you stay here?

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 20:13
You sound very complexed. Why do you always talk about yourself?

Are you in Russia on a PRP? Who is letting you stay here?

Personal attack?

AstarD
02-06-2011, 20:17
I think he's just curious how a homeless foreigner without a steady source of income could get a Russian green card, that's all. I don't think he meant it as an attack against Willy. I also do not. But I am curious. However, I don't expect to have my curiosity satisfied.

tvadim133
02-06-2011, 20:38
I think he's just curious how a homeless foreigner without a steady source of income could get a Russian green card, that's all. I don't think he meant it as an attack against Willy. I also do not. But I am curious. However, I don't expect to have my curiosity satisfied.

He can send a PM with such kind of questions in case of his unstoppable curiosity!

:)

martpark
02-06-2011, 21:00
Personal attack?

How is that an attack?

I'm sure Willy has answered the question before on here. And, of course, he has every right to refuse to answer it now.

sweetfart
02-06-2011, 22:48
why are you spending time on the computer if you are homeless

Remington
02-06-2011, 23:50
Probably living in a home made from cardboard boxes in an alley behind a building and using free wifi from nearby coffee shop... urmm... is that stealing?

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 11:08
It's one thing when you share something between a limited group of people that you know, and completely another when you put it up for billions of people (that you don't know) to download.

So what is the difference? Maybe i know all billions people with whom i share the movie i bought.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 11:11
Downloading torrents is about the same as making fake D&G shirts and giving them away to everyone for free.

Just because you don't accept money from it doesn't morally clear you. You're still taking away from someone else's potential profits, thus you are stealing someone else's money.

You are mistaken here. UPLOAD torrents is the same as making fake D&G shirts.
Do you see the difference?

In addition, hypothetically, someone else could not earn money from their product because nobody would want to buy the product they produce.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 11:16
It's called receiving stolen property.

If you buy a stolen car you should be able to keep it because it wasn't you who stole it?

And yes if you go to a store and want to hear a cd before you by it you can.

If you buy a stolen car with "changed motor number" and the seller gave you a document from gai confirmed that this car was stolen and motor number was changed you can use this car freely.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 11:29
As an example, movie studios lose money when people illegally download newly released movies. So, in turn, they pass this along to the theaters that show the films and the theaters then have to raise their ticket prices. So the people who choose to PAY to see the films now must pay more.

What about the quality of the original movie (music) they provide?

What if i bought movie (music) and i would be disappointed with it?

What about my rights as an consumer in this case?

Preventing your question about t-shirts and jeans i can try it before buying. Regarding movie (music) trailer can't give the objective information about the original product.

mrzuzzo
03-06-2011, 12:38
So what is the difference? Maybe i know all billions people with whom i share the movie i bought.

But you don't, and there's no way that is possible.


You are mistaken here. UPLOAD torrents is the same as making fake D&G shirts.
Do you see the difference?

I see absolutely no difference. When it comes to torrents, the second you start downloading, you start uploading to other users as well!

Seems like Russians, even intelligent ones, have a very hard time understanding what intellectual property is. This will be a huge issue in a modern intellectual property based economy.

Remington
03-06-2011, 13:06
Seems like Russians, even intelligent ones, have a very hard time understanding what intellectual property is. This will be a huge issue in a modern intellectual property based economy.

The major factor preventing Russia from joining WTO is intellectual property violations.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/piracy-lair-stands-between-russia-and-wto-membership/432764.html

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 13:15
But you don't, and there's no way that is possible.


It is only your guesses. You can't claim it.

I see absolutely no difference. When it comes to torrents, the second you start downloading, you start uploading to other users as well!

You are wrong. I can download smth but at the same time i restrict uploading for instance. So i just take movie (game) from the user who wants to share. Afterwards, for example my friend who lives far from me asks me for this movie (game). I can send it via mail but it is ridiculous and it is better to give it to him via torrents.

Seems like Russians, even intelligent ones, have a very hard time understanding what intellectual property is. This will be a huge issue in a modern intellectual property based economy.

Not only in Russia. Majority people who use torrents are from Europe.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 13:21
Come on guys i bet you would save 1000-3000 dollars in month instead of spending it for movies (games, programs), taking into consideration that those downloaded movies, games, programs could be uninteresting for you and you would remove it from your PC.

mrzuzzo
03-06-2011, 13:24
It is only your guesses. You can't claim it.

I can claim it, it's called common sense. You don't know all people living on planet earth and that's that.



You are wrong. I can download smth but at the same time i restrict uploading for instance. So i just take movie (game) from the user who wants to share. Afterwards, for example my friend who lives far from me asks me for this movie (game). I can send it via mail but it is ridiculous and it is better to give it to him via torrents.

1) For some reason I highly doubt you limit your upload.
2) On sites like rutracker, if you stop your upload you won't be able to download, so once again you are wrong.
3) As soon as you upload to your friend through torrents, you are copying and distributing someone else's intellectual property.



Not only in Russia. Majority people who use torrents are from Europe.

The violations are much worse in Russia where people make lots of money off of pirated content and stolen intellectual property.

And btw, just out of curiosity, how many times have you "shared" a movie amongst your real friends via torrents? :D

mrzuzzo
03-06-2011, 13:28
Russians, for the most part, are a very morally ambiguous peoples. They do not see right and wrong, only what is good for themselves as individuals.

100% on the dot. The sad truth. This is why so many Russians are thiefs, stealing from their own people, stealing taxes, stealing from their employees, stealing from their workplaces. Then using that money to buy Porsches to show everyone how much they stole.

It's so common that most Russians don't even see what's wrong with it.

Remington
03-06-2011, 13:36
You are wrong. I can download smth but at the same time i restrict uploading for instance. So i just take movie (game) from the user who wants to share. Afterwards, for example my friend who lives far from me asks me for this movie (game). I can send it via mail but it is ridiculous and it is better to give it to him via torrents.

Not everybody knows how to disable the upload feature and most of them do not. Many torrent sites will restrict your downloads if you restrict the uploads or they have quota limitation until you upload something.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 13:41
2) On sites like rutracker, if you stop your upload you won't be able to download, so once again you are wrong.

You are wrong again. You can great many accounts there and just download (without uploading)

As soon as you upload to your friend through torrents, you are copying and distributing someone else's intellectual property.


No. My friends don't pay me for the content so i have no profit. For example, i bought a game so i can do whatever i want with this game (i can upload it to our ftp server or give it to my friends or whatever i want). I paid for the thing so it is my property.

The violations are much worse in Russia where people make lots of money off of pirated content and stolen intellectual property.

Users don't make money.

And btw, just out of curiosity, how many times have you "shared" a movie amongst your real friends via torrents? :D

I don't watch movie btw but regarding games i did it.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 13:44
So, if someone stole your snowboard and changed the serial number on it, then sold it to some else, you would be ok with that?

Just think before posting smth. Comparing a car and a snowboard is ridiculous ...

Remington
03-06-2011, 13:45
My point proven. You think it is ok to steal because it saves YOU money.

It may save someone money but is it worth downloading games or programs using torrent which are infested with viruses or trojan horses which may hose their computer forcing them to clean or reinstall everything? Not all anti-virus suites will catch them especially if the games are recently released.

mrzuzzo
03-06-2011, 13:47
You are wrong again. You can great many accounts there and just download (without uploading)

Are you sure? I thought they gave out an IP ban once you create lots of accounts.

Either way, I'm pretty sure that is not what you do.


For example, i bought a game so i can do whatever i want with this game (i can upload it to our ftp server or give it to my friends or whatever i want). I paid for the thing so it is my property.

Typical Russian mentality right there.

You didn't buy the game, you bought the CD/DVD and the rights to use the game. But guess what, you did not buy distribution rights to it. So legally (and morally) you cannot do "whatever you want" with it.



Users don't make money.


You're right, users save money they would have otherwise paid to publishers. Publishers lose potential profits, thus the users are stealing. Just because you don't turn a profit doesn't mean someone else doesn't turn a loss.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 13:48
My point proven. You think it is ok to steal because it saves YOU money.

Again you did the wrong conclusion.

Don't you see the difference between the things below?

1. I can try t-shirts, snowboards, cars before buying. When i receive the full information about those things i will buy it.

2. I can't receive full information about movie (game, program) before buying.

So what about my rights as a consumer?

Remington
03-06-2011, 13:50
You are wrong again. You can great many accounts there and just download (without uploading)

It's not a matter of right or wrong. Majority of people don't turn off the upload feature.


No. My friends don't pay me for the content so i have no profit. For example, i bought a game so i can do whatever i want with this game (i can upload it to our ftp server or give it to my friends or whatever i want). I paid for the thing so it is my property.

You are wrong. You better read the license agreement that came with the movies or computer games. All of them said you are licensed to use their product for your own personal use as long as you don't copy or distribute it to anyone else but yourself. You do NOT OWN it but you are given permission or license to use it.

Remington
03-06-2011, 13:58
Why do you think we have software activations? If I buy a game and distribute it with my friends including the activation key. What do you think will happen?

tvadim133
03-06-2011, 14:02
Russians, for the most part, are a very morally ambiguous peoples. They do not see right and wrong, only what is good for themselves as individuals.

As well as americans, italians, germans and so on.

It is in humain nature actually, but if you wanted to make such kind of statement to insult "russians", your statement can be considered as a Russian hatred statement.

Should I report that? or you are able to explain, you did not mean to offend the nationality?

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 14:03
Are you sure? I thought they gave out an IP ban once you create lots of accounts.

Either way, I'm pretty sure that is not what you do.

I am sure because i do it from time to time and you are pretty wrong.

Typical Russian mentality right there.

You didn't buy the game, you bought the CD/DVD and the rights to use the game. But guess what, you did not buy distribution rights to it. So legally (and morally) you cannot do "whatever you want" with it.

It is typical mentality of the logical man (woman). Yes i bought a game so i can give it for free to other people.

You're right, users save money they would have otherwise paid to publishers. Publishers lose potential profits, thus the users are stealing. Just because you don't turn a profit doesn't mean someone else doesn't turn a loss.


Publishers don't lose potential profit because ...

...first of all there are some people in the world who don't use torrents and other sources.
...second if a man (woman) like the game (movie) from torrents he (she) will by the same game (movie) in a shop

At last it is quite unfair form publishers to sell a pig in a poke. What about consumers' right? Why should we pay for bad movie (game)? I bet if you notice a big scrap on the new car you will not buy this car.

Remington
03-06-2011, 14:05
As well as americans, italians, germans and so on.

It is in humain nature actually, but if you wanted to make such kind of statement to insult "russians", your statement can be considered as a Russian hatred statement.

Should I report that? or you are able to explain, you did not mean to offend the nationality?

I don't think he intended in that way since most piracy occurs in Eastern Europe and Asia where intellectual property laws are lax.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 14:06
You can view trailers or samples on the companies' websites, you can read reviews online or in magazines, ask your friends who have the game...

As i said trailers can't give the full information about game (movie)

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 14:39
"...second if a man (woman) like the game (movie) from torrents he (she) will by the same game (movie) in a shop"

At least i and my friends did (do) it regularly.

Really Flakey?????????????????????????
Think about it before you post it.
If someone illegally downloads a game, they will then go to a shop and purchase the same game that they already have because they downloaded it illegally?

Really??????????????

Yes. You don't understand. If i like a game (movie) i will buy the original version in the shop because...

1. For my collection
2. To receive a box version
3. as a present to my friends

Is it enough for you?

mrzuzzo
03-06-2011, 14:49
I really want to know how Flakey "shares" her games as I'm pretty sure all new software needs an activation code that can only be used once. There is a good reason for that - to prevent such illegal distribution. So her friends must download a crack/keygen to play, effectively modifying the game by breaking its security.

tvadim, stop being Mr. Political Correctness. This is twice in 2 days now. Either report my posts or don't. I couldn't care less.

Remington
03-06-2011, 14:53
If you're thinking something like this... You buy a DVD movie and want to share it with your friends. You can do that as long as your friend have the original DVD BUT you cannot copy it and give it to your friend.

If you decide you want to host a party at your house and charge your friends $5 to watch a movie. You cannot do that.

The same thing goes for computer games except that activation key may not work and you may have to contact the company to have the license transferred to your friend for the activation to work.

tvadim133
03-06-2011, 18:14
I stand by my statement.
I have been all over the world, and Russia is one of the few countries where the law is freely interpreted on such a large scale based on individual needs.
Returning to the Metro example, yesterday I saw a man jump the turnstile right in front of a police officer. When the officer stopped him, the man proceeded to justify his actions, saying it was ok because metro makes plenty of money from other people and since he didn't have money it was ok for him to ride because he needed to go somewhere.
Kuddos to the police officer for refusing to listen to these arguments and making the man spend the 30 rubles to buy a ticket.

Dear Sir!

I have to report this issue.

It unacceptable to lable any nations like you did, including Russians and even insist on this statement.

We have had some cases, which were less harmless (the case with the opinion of one of the members about Jews, which was not so obviously unsulting as yours) and hope that the administartors of the site will take the statement of yours as serious as the statement about jews and will take all necessary actions to let you know, you are not right.

Best Regards,
Vadim

mrzuzzo
03-06-2011, 18:17
^

http://lolpics.se/pics/482.jpg

martpark
03-06-2011, 18:17
Dear Sir!

I have to report this issue.

It unacceptable to lable any nations like you did, including Russians and even insist on this statement.

We have had some cases, which were less harmless (the case with the opinion of one of the members about Jews, which was not so obviously unsulting as yours) and hope that the administartors of the site will take the statement of yours as serious as the statement about jews and will take all necessary actions to let you know, you are not right.

Best Regards,
Vadim

How long have you been on the site? There's a 'report' button on the right of the screen. That's what he was referring to.

Willy
03-06-2011, 21:09
Personal attack?



Na, it wasn't that bad if he was trying. I think he could do better.



mrzuzzo, technically I'm not homeless. All my docs are good.

Willy
03-06-2011, 21:20
Probably living in a home made from cardboard boxes in an alley behind a building and using free wifi from nearby coffee shop... urmm... is that stealing?


Can you steal something that's free?


That's a good way to get yourself beaten, killed or picked up by the cops.

No cardboard boxes for me bud. Once the cops did talk to me but only asked if I needed help. I was pretty sick at the time, had a fever and really didn't feel too good, when I said no I'm fine they just said ok, sorry and left, I couldn't get back to sleep though. This happened near the Kremlin.

Willy
03-06-2011, 22:04
Are you sure? I thought they gave out an IP ban once you create lots of accounts.

Either way, I'm pretty sure that is not what you do.



Typical Russian mentality right there.

You didn't buy the game, you bought the CD/DVD and the rights to use the game. But guess what, you did not buy distribution rights to it. So legally (and morally) you cannot do "whatever you want" with it.



You're right, users save money they would have otherwise paid to publishers. Publishers lose potential profits, thus the users are stealing. Just because you don't turn a profit doesn't mean someone else doesn't turn a loss.



Well gee, never play that CD for your friends or invite your girlfriend over to watch that new DVD you bought, it's stealing.

And don't jump all over me because I'm kind of with you on this but there is a limit. Prices have been going up for a long time and it's not just because of pirates. Artist make much less than the record companies. You can 1000 CD's made for $1000 how can you justify $20 or $30 a disk? Artist get about 1 to $3 a disk. The company can but not always spend $50,000 to $100,000 on recording, sometimes the artist pays but that depends on who you are. Yes the company does advertise but that is also why bands tour.You make crap or break even on most tours, you do them to sell CD's.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 22:32
I really want to know how Flakey "shares" her games as I'm pretty sure all new software needs an activation code that can only be used once. There is a good reason for that - to prevent such illegal distribution. So her friends must download a crack/keygen to play, effectively modifying the game by breaking its security.

tvadim, stop being Mr. Political Correctness. This is twice in 2 days now. Either report my posts or don't. I couldn't care less.

Mrzuzzo i have not been playing games for 3 years, but in former days, especially when i studied at university i did it regularly and those games could be installed on unlimited numbers of PC.

FlakeySnowballer
03-06-2011, 22:43
So by your argument, if I decide I want a Gnu snowboard, I can come to your flat, take yours, use it as much as I want, share it with my friends, etc. Then, if I decide I like it, I will go to the shop and buy it.

No because i bought GNU snowboard, plus you are too tall to use 145 height board.

Remington
04-06-2011, 00:39
http://desertpeace.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/enough-is-enough.jpg

martpark
04-06-2011, 01:07
Please stick to the topic at hand. All other posts will be deleted.