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robertmf
14-04-2011, 21:15
In an interconnected world, speaking more than one language is becoming increasingly common. Approximately one-fifth of Americans speak a non-English language at home, and globally, as many as two-thirds of children are brought up bilingual.

Research suggests that the growing numbers of bilingual speakers may have an advantage that goes beyond communication: It turns out that being bilingual is also good for your brain.

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/04/135043787/being-bilingual-may-boost-your-brain-power

xSnoofovich
14-04-2011, 21:40
There are several different theories about how to raise bilingual children.

The one parent, one language approach, the only speak one language at home approach, the get a nanny that doesn't speak the parents language approach, the mom that teaches her child a different language, the immersion approach starting at kindergarten, the montesorri (ptit cref) approach.

Of course, a bilingual child can quickly become a monolingual child if one language isn't used !

xSnoofovich
14-04-2011, 21:43
If any cares, here is a link to the findings of the research.


http://ilabs.washington.edu/kuhl/publications.html


Just click on the click here to receive a reprint link, and it pops up a pdf with the research.

martpark
14-04-2011, 22:07
Here's her video presentation. Basically the best ages are 0-7 for languages, then it gradually gets more difficult with age.

http://blog.ted.com/2011/02/15/the-linguistic-genius-of-babies-patricia-kuhl-on-ted-com/

ezik
14-04-2011, 22:10
Untill 7, there is actually an active part in the brain that supports language development. The method I use with my kids is that I consequently talk to them in Dutch, my wife in Russian. We speak a lot of English at home, too, and the oldest is getting fluent in that language, too.

robertmf
14-04-2011, 22:23
Untill 7, there is actually an active part in the brain that supports language development. The method I use with my kids is that I consequently talk to them in Dutch, my wife in Russian. We speak a lot of English at home, too, and the oldest is getting fluent in that language, too.

Pozhal'sta, Let's do some other word than "consequently" :) I think what you mean is ...

consistently
My wife consistently speaks to the kids in Russian and I (consistently) speak to them in Dutch. At home we all speak alot of English

But perhaps ...

sequentially ?
One day is speaking Dutch, one day is English, and the next day is Russian

ezik
14-04-2011, 23:10
LOL - sorry. Consistently in Dutch would be put as "consequent". Hence, consequently.
The word I meant is Consistently.
My humble apologies, I am not a native English speaker...

robertmf
16-04-2011, 00:16
LOL - sorry. Consistently in Dutch would be put as "consequent". Hence, consequently.
The word I meant is Consistently.


The method I use with my kids is that I consistently talk to them in Dutch, and my wife talks to them in Russian; consequently they are learning 2 languages.

:Loco: :applause:
:tgif:

Bels
16-04-2011, 23:28
I must admit I have a similar experience to Ezik. My oldest son who was then 7 years old quickly communicated with me in English. My Russian now wife speaks English fluently. Our youngest son, now five has learnt to speak English to me his Father in English, and Russian to the rest of his family, his mother, Babooshka, and his brother...With the family together of course we speak in English. Our five year translates to Babooshka when necessary

. yes we we are a bilingual family , and I believe it benefits our children. My oldest son who is now 14 is now proficient in three languages. German, English and of course his Russian language. We managed to persuade the director of his scool to take german exams plus English, as me being his tutor in English. With some relief he got his five points.

Also I have many students that learnt German at school rather than English. Surprise as it might seem those are my best students in learning English.


Untill 7, there is actually an active part in the brain that supports language development. The method I use with my kids is that I consequently talk to them in Dutch, my wife in Russian. We speak a lot of English at home, too, and the oldest is getting fluent in that language, too.

Bels
16-04-2011, 23:33
Even so, You are good. Dutch people appear to be be the best in the world in using English as a second language. Yhe reason is probably that they learn English at a very young age, my guess five years old.


LOL - sorry. Consistently in Dutch would be put as "consequent". Hence, consequently.
The word I meant is Consistently.
My humble apologies, I am not a native English speaker...

Bels
17-04-2011, 00:08
Yes in my experience 0-5 with my own child. However teaching properly it is easier starting from five. My 7 year old Russian son learnt English almost immediately, in verbal and listening with discussion. Of course my real son picked up English from 0-5 without a [problem. He finds it natural.

However being a teacher I do find it difficult teaching other children below the age of four English. .Without doubt it is a different style of teaching. After four I have had no problem. Many of my students I taught from four or five are now 12 or young teenagers and are lways top in their school. Many have done well with OLYMPIA bu;;dog for example, and being best in their year.


Here's her video presentation. Basically the best ages are 0-7 for languages, then it gradually gets more difficult with age.

http://blog.ted.com/2011/02/15/the-linguistic-genius-of-babies-patricia-kuhl-on-ted-com/

Korotky Gennady
17-04-2011, 00:25
I heard that the bilingual kids are a little retarded in comparission with their monolingual peers.

They operate with less number of words...

Bels
17-04-2011, 00:30
I don't think so. In my experierice, children developing bi-;lingual are much smarter than thode qith just their native language. They infact develop educationally much faster.


I heard that the bilingual kids are a little retarded in comparission with their monolingual peers.

They operate with less number of words...

martpark
17-04-2011, 00:51
I heard that the bilingual kids are a little retarded in comparission with their monolingual peers.

They operate with less number of words...

Untrue...unless, of course, you have some evidence to support that.

xSnoofovich
17-04-2011, 02:01
I heard that the bilingual kids are a little retarded in comparission with their monolingual peers.

They operate with less number of words...

People say that in the beginning, children will have a set vocabulary of, for this example, let's say at age 1.5 or even 2, of 100 words max. However, as a bilingual child, those words could be divided up into say 50/50 or 80/20 etc.
There are sometimes gaps, where the child will be unable to complete his thought in one language, and if the necessary word is known in the second language, s/he will use that word instead. Something like, Ivan eat yablika, car yedit. So, it could seem as if the child would be confused. However, the vocabulary of the child will continue to grow, let's say by the age of 2.5 to 200 words, by 2.8 to 300 and by the age of 3, to about 300-400 words (in active vocabulary). One language will be stronger, but the perfect world, the gaps between the languages decreases.

Korotky Gennady
17-04-2011, 02:26
Untrue...unless, of course, you have some evidence to support that.


I did read about it in the american Phychology Textbook.

Kids from bilingual families use in school less vocabulary than kids from monolingual families...

Korotky Gennady
17-04-2011, 02:40
People say that in the beginning, children will have a set vocabulary of, for this example, let's say at age 1.5 or even 2, of 100 words max. However, as a bilingual child, those words could be divided up into say 50/50 or 80/20 etc.


. The same continues to be in the school age.

Kids at this age use about a few thousands of words... The kids from bilingual families use more words than other children do of course... They speak two languagies when the other children speak only one...

But if we divide the words they use into two their languagies.. It turns out that they use less words of one language than the others do...

xSnoofovich
17-04-2011, 02:43
I did read about it in the american Phychology Textbook....

Well, that could be the problem right there.... ;b

http://www.bukkyo-u.ac.jp/bu/guide/intro/faculty/educate/img/t_phychology.gif

Korotky Gennady
17-04-2011, 02:54
Oh no... I did read it in the book of General Psychology. The Chapter "Intellectual Development of Children".

xSnoofovich
17-04-2011, 02:57
But if we divide the words they use into two their languagies.. It turns out that they use less words of one language than the others do...

It could be possible to a point, although, there are many other factors that have an impact, such as how much quality time does a parent spend with the child, is the child mentally challenged+ rewarded, and general disposition of the child, etc.

xSnoofovich
17-04-2011, 03:03
But if we divide the words they use into two their languagies.. It turns out that they use less words of one language than the others do...

I think the key word here is use, which to me means active vocabulary.

Surely passive vocabulary has to count for something, and if not today, then where do these children stand in say, 10 years from now?

Korotky Gennady
17-04-2011, 03:04
It could be possible to a point, although, there are many other factors that have an impact, such as how much quality time does a parent spend with the child, is the child mentally challenged+ rewarded, and general disposition of the child, etc.

No doubts...

But I think you agree that to develop the speaking skills in one language up to the degree of perfection... is easy for child than to do in two languages at the same time... :))

xSnoofovich
17-04-2011, 03:07
No doubts...

But I think you agree that to develop the speaking skills in one language up to the degree of perfection... is easy for child than to do in two languages at the same time... :))

No, I disagree.

There are many advantages to learning a second language, and nothing I have seen leads me to believe that they suffer from knowing 2 or more languages.

Korotky Gennady
17-04-2011, 03:11
I
and if not today, then where do these children stand in say, 10 years from now?



Hmm... perhaps some adult speak a few languages but... notice this fact... he (she) doesn't speak one as perfectly as monolingual adults do.

How many do you see russians who speak english as native english speakers do ? I am sure... you see no one.

Korotky Gennady
17-04-2011, 03:15
nothing I have seen leads me to believe that they suffer from knowing 2 or more languages.

They don't suffer of course if they work in business field... But it's not the fact that bilingual person will be writing as Lev Tolstoy or Dostoevsky... :)))

xSnoofovich
17-04-2011, 03:20
How many do you see russians who speak english as native english speakers do ? I am sure... you see no one.

Well, to be sure, there has to be a few.

The problem isn't necessarily with the ability of one to speak a language, the problem lies in the active use of the language, and the depth of the knowledge in that language + the ability to express oneself.

For instance, if we have a monolingual person who wishes to create an online business, they may go to a computer programmer, and attempt to describe to that programmer what they think they want the webpage to do.

The programmer takes that input, and tries follow the instructions of that person, and many times, the person is unhappy, because that person was originally unable to describe their complete thoughts, etc etc.

xSnoofovich
17-04-2011, 03:22
They don't suffer of course if they work in business field... But it's not the fact that bilingual person will be writing as Lev Tolstoy or Dostoevsky... :)))


Not many monolingual people can do that anyway. ;b

xSnoofovich
17-04-2011, 03:26
But it's not the fact that bilingual person will be writing as Lev Tolstoy or Dostoevsky... :)))

What about Pushkin?

Rumor has it he was fluent in French, plus maybe a few other languages?

http://www10.plala.or.jp/transparentt/strange%20case_N_.pdf

I am not exactly sure, but wasn't Tolstoy part of the aristocracy? Wouldn't he have spoken or learned French as a youth?

I see on wiki this-

War and Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png

Tolstoy read all the standard histories available in Russian and French about the Napoleonic Wars and combined more traditional historical writing with the novel form.

Although Tolstoy wrote most of the book, including all the narration in Russian, significant portions of dialogue (including its opening paragraph) are written in French with characters often switching between the two languages. This reflected 19th century Russian aristocracy, where French, a foreign tongue, was widely spoken and considered a language of prestige and more refined than Russian.

Maybe he had a translator though?

MickeyTong
17-04-2011, 14:43
I must admit I have a similar experience to Ezik. My oldest son who was then 7 years old quickly communicated with me in English. My Russian now wife speaks English fluently. Our youngest son, now five has learnt to speak English to me his Father in English, and Russian to the rest of his family, his mother, Babooshka, and his brother...With the family together of course we speak in English. Our five year translates to Babooshka when necessary

. yes we we are a bilingual family , and I believe it benefits our children. My oldest son who is now 14 is now proficient in three languages. German, English and of course his Russian language. We managed to persuade the director of his scool to take german exams plus English, as me being his tutor in English. With some relief he got his five points.

Also I have many students that learnt German at school rather than English. Surprise as it might seem those are my best students in learning English.

Have you noticed any deleterious effects on your own English proficiency?

Bels
17-04-2011, 22:37
Have you ex[erienced in what you said in practice? Do you know what you are talking about?

My sons speakto me very well in English, in fact much more explanatory than most others in the English language as English native speakers. I have for example a four year old son who speaks and communicates in English much better than American or British children, yet my wife claims he speaks slightly better in Russian.

Now where does that put you predictions.

I am sorry!!!!! But you underestimate the ability of children with language as they are unbelievable. As long as you keep away from translation from their first language. NOW! That is the trick!!!!


People say that in the beginning, children will have a set vocabulary of, for this example, let's say at age 1.5 or even 2, of 100 words max. However, as a bilingual child, those words could be divided up into say 50/50 or 80/20 etc.
There are sometimes gaps, where the child will be unable to complete his thought in one language, and if the necessary word is known in the second language, s/he will use that word instead. Something like, Ivan eat yablika, car yedit. So, it could seem as if the child would be confused. However, the vocabulary of the child will continue to grow, let's say by the age of 2.5 to 200 words, by 2.8 to 300 and by the age of 3, to about 300-400 words (in active vocabulary). One language will be stronger, but the perfect world, the gaps between the languages decreases.

Bels
17-04-2011, 23:12
So who do do better educationally in the future. The bilingual child, or the single language child. Let us not forget that even Russian children have to learn English from the age of six. And yes I know that is not the same as being a bi-lingual child. I think bi-lingual children develop better than those who concentrate on their countries' language. In fact I have ve experienced living here in Russia over the past six years, and enjoying to hear of of my pupils get 5, plus 5, plus 5 in their exams at state school. And those who get entrance into special gymnastic schools in Russia, due to passing Russian and English tests for example. And those who excell in Bulldog or any other international Olympia exam. I take joy that my near bi lingual pupils do well. Yes bilingual children will peak best in language of which is spoken within that country, but the other language wi;; almost be as good. In general thet are probably better spoken in both languages.



The same continues to be in the school age.

Kids at this age use about a few thousands of words... The kids from bilingual families use more words than other children do of course... They speak two languagies when the other children speak only one...

But if we divide the words they use into two their languagies.. It turns out that they use less words of one language than the others do...

Korotky Gennady
18-04-2011, 01:17
What about Pushkin?

Rumor has it he was fluent in French, plus maybe a few other languages?


?

Yes, Puskin was fluent in french, but the verses he wrote in this language weren't so good in order to be famous in France...

How do you think why it's so ? It's so becoz he was bilingual but he can make master-pieces only in one of them... In which he knew better...

Korotky Gennady
18-04-2011, 01:21
Although Tolstoy wrote most of the book, including all the narration in Russian, significant portions of dialogue (including its opening paragraph) are written in French with characters often switching between the two languages.


Maybe he had a translator though?

Your example isn't suited for this case... Tolstoy wasn't a bilingual person.

Korotky Gennady
18-04-2011, 01:30
In general thet are probably better spoken in both languages.

Bels, as I have written in this thread, it is not the fact that they speak russian and english better than monolingual russian and american kids do...

Scientific investigations witness against this hypothesis. But of course kids who know two languages have some advantage before those who know only one...

They can easy find a job... for instance.

Korotky Gennady
18-04-2011, 01:42
I am sorry!!!!! But you underestimate the ability of children with language as they are unbelievable. As long as you keep away from translation from their first language. NOW! That is the trick!!!!

Why does this trick not work with adult students ? :)))

Korotky Gennady
18-04-2011, 01:48
Well, to be sure, there has to be a few.


.


Who are they then ?

I remember as Annasofia wrote a couple of years ago... that all russians here speak english very bad...

She wrote that she never had met a russian who have such english language speaking skills in order she couldn't from his (her) first phrases understand that it wasn't a native speaker before her.

:)))

Bels
19-04-2011, 23:55
If you were 40? Would you not find it very difficult to learn English or any other foreign language? I do ! Being 50 it was extremely difficult to learn Russian. But developing from a young child it isn't a big deal. I have taught 40 year olds English, and believe me they find learning English extremely difficult.


Why does this trick not work with adult students ? :)))

Matt24
20-04-2011, 07:37
Have you noticed any deleterious effects on your own English proficiency?

Flash git!

yakspeare
20-04-2011, 13:38
A child from 0-5 is a sponge and can absorb as much information as you wish to give them. I teach one four year old at the moment and he has a very active English vocabulary which doesn't lessen his Russian vocabulary at all. I taught my old girlfriend's daughter English(actually most of it she picked up on her own) and she was three. Studies have known that knowledge of another language improves overall brain function-in effect it is like exercise for the brain- and assists in learning in other areas and also stemming the effects of dementia etc in old age.

http://www.suite101.com/content/bilingual-children-learn-better-a126335
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/289827/benefits_of_raising_bilingual_children_pg2.html?cat=25
http://gagasisterhood.com/general/raising-bilingual-children-benefit-or-concern/

"According to the American Speech and Language Association, most children have the capacity to learn two or more languages. Research suggests there are advantages to being bilingual, such as linguistic and metalinguistic abilities, and cognitive flexibility, such as concept formation, divergent thinking and general reasoning and verbal abilities. If a child has a speech or language problem, it will show up in both languages. However, these problems are not caused by learning two languages.



Benefits
In her book Raising Bilingual Children, Carey Myles says “Bilingualism has been linked to a variety of positive cognitive benefits, including early reading, improved problem-solving skills, and higher scores on the SATs, including the math section.” Myles also claims that bilingual children have been shown to demonstrate “better listening perception” and that they “recognize earlier than monolingual children do that language is symbolic… and…are more skilled at interpreting and manipulating grammar to communicate clearly.”
"

MickeyTong
20-04-2011, 14:31
Ali G - keepin it reel, man, interviewing Norman Chompskie

YouTube - ali g interviews noam chomsky

MickeyTong
20-04-2011, 15:16
Flash git!

Well, yeah. One must make an effort. It comes from within.

Matt24
20-04-2011, 15:35
Well, yeah. One must make an effort. It comes from within.

Have you thought of adding more fibre to your diet, or increasing your early morning caffeine intake? It should ease it's way out, like a Belsian phrase out of the lips of a 5 year old - "Dud you thunk, is I stupd, I TELL YOU?"

MickeyTong
20-04-2011, 16:08
Have you thought of adding more fibre to your diet, or increasing your early morning caffeine intake? It should ease it's way out, like a Belsian phrase out of the lips of a 5 year old - "Dud you thunk, is I stupd, I TELL YOU?"

So I misunderinterpreted you, OH YES, of which you meant to write "flush git". Be assured that my stools are substantial and gratifying in their fibrosity. And I bite my thumb at your suggestion of early morning caffeine - some of us, by preference, discharge our duties at night (only fools and horses work for a living.....) and we are ready for a skinful in the early morning. After 3 nights of such selfless devotion to public service we can be totally cunted by 11 o'clock of a Thursday morning.

Ya boo sucks, matey.

Bels
21-04-2011, 00:29
Loved the video, and is a fan of Ali-G, But didn't een this one before. Don't do somebody do dare criticiise ma grammar on this post!!


Ali G - keepin it reel, man, interviewing Norman Chompskie

YouTube - ali g interviews noam chomsky (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOIM1_xOSro)

rusmeister
06-05-2011, 08:45
LOL - sorry. Consistently in Dutch would be put as "consequent". Hence, consequently.
The word I meant is Consistently.
My humble apologies, I am not a native English speaker...
Aw, c'mon, Dutch are "half" native, and generally better than Indians... :)