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Aprill
31-10-2003, 14:39
A month ago I spoke to a PR specialist and he told that Khodorkovsky seemed to be going to be president and he did have a real chance. At that time it seemed almost impossible with a stable position and high image of Putin and a low awareness of Khodorkovsky.

How do you think, is it a well-organised and paid PR-campaign aimed at raising his popularity and gaining the majority of votes at the president elections coming or just repressions, or the punishment deserved, or sth else?

Avalanche
31-10-2003, 14:48
Like they say "there is no good publicity like bad publicity"
He is obviously getting everybody's attention:D

Hermione
31-10-2003, 15:00
I am not a big fan of political discussions, but tell me, how can a man running multimilliard businesses become a President, when he will be:
1. a little bit busy with president's functions
2. not allowed to do any business.

Avalanche
31-10-2003, 15:08
Hi,
it will almost be the same as Arnie and Roman (Chelsea).
You see they will employ people to do this function for them wilst they are enjoying their new found hobbies:D (Govenor, Club Owner and President):)

Aprill
31-10-2003, 15:09
1 it would give him carte blanche and security to his money.
2 he won't run it officially :)

twaj
31-10-2003, 16:36
Maybe he could be the owner of Man United. I'd say that there are more people, on average, that support Man United, they have higher incomes than the average Russian (even if they are working class guys from N. England) and they're probably, on average, more sober. The pay is probably better too.

Jet
31-10-2003, 16:49
No way Khodor will be anything but a burn-out businessman, it would tak at least two generations to have the starting capital laundered, probably more.

Aprill
31-10-2003, 16:53
I do not think he is very much interested in Man United right now :)
I am just wondering about the splash of popularity he is entertaining and what does he need it all for?

Aprill
31-10-2003, 16:57
Originally posted by Jet Li
No way Khodor will be anything but a burn-out businessman, it would tak at least two generations to have the starting capital laundered, probably more.

Jet, once we elected a former KGB official in spite of all the negative attitude towards KGB.
Why not a repressed businessman be the next?

IRS_Runner
02-11-2003, 02:09
He'll probably end up the same way Lebed did I'm afraid.
Putin Is not the kind of guy that likes competition very much. :rolleyes:

Broadmoor Bob
02-11-2003, 13:12
Putin's approval rating is 75%. I have no idea how this crook Khodorkovsky rigged a poll to show any sort of support for a presidential run. What is more, outside of Moscow, and especially among the poor and less educated who are more apt to bother to vote, Khodorkovsky gets zero respect, and rightfully so. Lebed's fate is about all he deserves, except that it would be a waste of a good helicopter (oops, no such thing as a good Russian made helicopter these days).

In the end, Yukos will be put up for a semi-legitimate privatization sale, where some people close to the KGB faction may get chunks that they are not entitled to, but where enough shares will be made available to legitimate investors to allow for a properly run, transparent firm. I guess in the end, if ExxonMobil is still interested, and their offer is fair, they will take control of it.

Jet
02-11-2003, 13:36
Yeap, BB, these are difficult economic times

I disagree about Russian helicopters, provided they are serviced appropriately, these are the most reliable machines.

Exxon is indeed interested, which shows that Chinese model is the best for Russia, nobody cares about "political prisoners" as long as opportunities for big business are there.

Broadmoor Bob
02-11-2003, 14:38
Originally posted by Jet Li

I disagree about Russian helicopters, provided they are serviced appropriately, these are the most reliable machines.


Why all the accidents lately? Poor service, or is the fleet just getting old?

Jet
02-11-2003, 15:35
Well, BB, actually it is both, but u know as well as I do, had they kept the fleet up to the appropriate standards of maintanance, with new machines (same models) replacing the very old ones, with spare parts coming in... anyway, they are suppose to be Kalashnikovs of the sky, in particlar Mi-8 and its modifications, no wonder other countries (ok, not western) are still buying them.

Aprill
03-11-2003, 11:48
[\B] I guess in the end, if ExxonMobil is still interested, and their offer is fair, they will take control of it. [/B][/QUOTE]

I guess the takeover was the very reason of the government measures taken. Some experts think the oil business in Russia would depend much on the USA in that case and consider the K. arrest as a means of keeping him off the negotiations.

Ned Kelly
03-11-2003, 12:14
BB, Putin is a failed bureaucrat (look at St. Pete when he and Sobchak ran it into the ground), his poll rating is a mirage (when you control the polling agnency you think you'll get a bad rating?), he was handed the presidency on a platter (oh those mysterious bombings), and brooks no dissent (including those fabulously interesting 15 minute lead items on the news). I see nothing suggesting Putin has some sort of moral superiority over Khodorkovsky.

Aprill
03-11-2003, 12:36
I watched his harsh announcement reg a letter from the professional union asking for a meeting with him to discuss K. matter and it was the first time his KGB background was so distinctly obvious.

Aprill
04-11-2003, 15:35
It also seems that KPRF is discussing the idea of putting forward Khodorkovsky as their candidate on the president elections coming...and his resignation from Yukos is also a very sophisticated step towards it...

it all is getting more and more interesting ...

Jet
04-11-2003, 16:01
I doubt KPRF will be movinf forward with Khodor, it is just a rumor, Khodor is a wealthy man, he can live wherever he wants to, there are enough politicians on the left and on the right and center, to do the job, probably not within five years, but in ten years there will be enough mature people.

DJ Biscuit
04-11-2003, 16:06
Originally posted by Jet Li
I doubt KPRF will be movinf forward with Khodor, it is just a rumor, Khodor is a wealthy man, he can live wherever he wants to, there are enough politicians on the left and on the right and center, to do the job, probably not within five years, but in ten years there will be enough mature people.

At the moment he doesn't appear to have much choice as to where to live. :D :D

Aprill
04-11-2003, 17:18
with all his money he does not have a choice? :rolleyes: I doubt that...

DJ Biscuit
04-11-2003, 17:21
It was an attempt at humour, he has been in gaol has he not, so I made a small joke about not having a choice after the post which...oh never mind

Aprill
04-11-2003, 17:35
:D i understood your joke :)
still, the peculiarity of our country is that its laws are rarely applicable to the ppl with a fortune.

Jet
04-11-2003, 17:42
well, Aprill, in its own pervasive way Putin is trying to prove this to be wrong, law does apply and Khodor is na narah! As Ted Turner once said "It's all about the economy". Actually, he said its all about entertainment, but anyway what is happening is the law of the jungle outcome: Khodor lost. We can forget about him, he will gradually vanish like Bereza and others. We need an competition, unless medium-size businesses are given a top priority, the reforms will fail. In order to do it, there is a need to break a oligarchs' monopoly on business success/

DJ Biscuit
04-11-2003, 17:45
Aprill, yes that's a fact. Have you noticed how Abramovitch is now being followed by others abroad, buying up business' or making enquiries? If you own something like a football club in England it's very unlikely they will not let you live there. Maybe something is in the wind and these guys are preparing an exodus.

Aprill
04-11-2003, 17:58
yes, but Abramovich does not have that strong political ambitions like K. and is happy with his money now.
K. will be satisfied with the power only, otherwise he would have lelf the country. But he is too much of a gambler to do that, I think.

Jet
04-11-2003, 18:08
Sorry me again, Aprill, I don't think K. has any chance. there is no way Russians allow a jew (pardon me) to run the country. The political parties would like to have the support of wealthy jews but no way they will have a chance if at the end of the road they will pick the oligarch as presidential candidate. Just think of one name - Nemtsov, he was not an oligarch but Yeltsin tried to put him forward.

DJ Biscuit
04-11-2003, 18:21
Wasn't Lenin a Jew?

Jet
04-11-2003, 18:26
Only partly, btw that's why Russians won't allow anybody but a Russian to head the state, prime-minister -yes, president - no, they have had enough of Stalin and Beria

Aprill
04-11-2003, 18:28
Jet, I was thinking just that way.
The thing is that when money talks it asks not "can we do it?" but " how can we do it?"
I was not surprised having read that he left Yukos for a public organisation and his interviews about his values and beliefs, and these numerous articles and polls...What's that if not a PR campaign?
It all becomes really predictable now.

Jet
04-11-2003, 18:34
Everybody realize that he is PRit, but it would be too much for Russians to elect an oligarch and a jew to be a president, no way. i think he is slowly retiring, Putin showed that he can jail him, if K try to go further and try to run for political office, they will most likely seriously damage him. i think, K. resign after he was forced to do that in jail. Nobody messes with piterskie chekists

DJ Biscuit
04-11-2003, 19:14
So Berezovsky is not the president then?

Who is?

machine
04-11-2003, 19:17
Originally posted by Jet Li
Only partly, btw that's why Russians won't allow anybody but a Russian to head the state, prime-minister -yes, president - no, they have had enough of Stalin and Beria

Russians will allow anything, believe me.

twaj
05-11-2003, 05:30
Sorry, but having it in for the rich and Jews just shows what negroid tendencies these Russians have. I want to take pictures of children's gardens in Harlem and ones in Moscow to see which ones people are more likely to say are well-kempt.

Missionary
05-11-2003, 07:45
You are all acting like the Russian people will actually decide the fate of the presidency. Oh, I know they will vote, but that doesn't mean that they will be deciding. Putin controls the political machine. Putin will be president for as long as he likes, barring a mutiny from within his own organization ... or another revolution. K. is a threat to Putin not because he might be the next president or even because he is funding mainline opponents of Putin. K. is a threat to Putin in the same way that anyone with "oligarch money" is a threat to anyone in power. It is the same in any society, money equals power. Whether it be official power or simply influential power doesn't really matter.

Aprill
05-11-2003, 09:59
My respect :)
L

Jet
05-11-2003, 12:22
That's what i said; K. has no chance in Russian politics. he better retire to the Far east of Russia and spend money on re-building the infrustracture there

Aprill
05-11-2003, 12:33
I think after he raised such a dust he won't be a jew if he does not take advantage of that ;)

Jet
05-11-2003, 12:37
Chekiste konechno ne evrei, but Putin i think very much in control in Khodorkovski case. K. will be thinking about saving his butt

Aprill
05-11-2003, 12:39
Putin will have to think soon how to save his own butt ;) he is getting himself in trouble going on this way .

Jet
05-11-2003, 12:45
Aprill, no way, Putin popularity numbers are unchanged. Don't u realize, the times of "robber barons" are over, this type of capitalizm is from the books we have studied at school, Putin will do it chinese way, and he will be right

Aprill
05-11-2003, 13:15
where do you take info about Putin's popularity numbers?

Jet
05-11-2003, 13:37
is true its about 60%? what about K. what's his numbers?

Aprill
05-11-2003, 15:11
i do not believe ratings , esp published ones :)

Jet
05-11-2003, 15:18
Aprill, honestly, would you vote for Khodor?

Aprill
05-11-2003, 15:26
you know...yes, i would.
his managerial experience proves he could manage the country and make it profitable.
the only thing is that he used to manage his own company and his own money :) and i am not sure he'll change the approach when dealing with the state's one :)

Jet
05-11-2003, 16:18
Ok, i thought u were just theorizing, it turns out u are seriously pro-Khodor.

Aprill, u mistaken oligarch luck with the top manager skill. U can vote for who ever u want but remember that running a country, especially Russia, is nothing like running a company.

Khodor privatized a piece of oil industry which was already lucrative by the wil of God Almighty and the Soviet state. If u compare the relative numbers of Surgut oil company with Yukos, u will realize Yukos as an integrated oil company it was not that successful. About transparency of his company. So what? TNK is less transparent but BP is readily joined forces with it.

Aprill
05-11-2003, 16:32
you know, KGB skills are not that efficient for running a country, either.
As for the K. , he is a top manager, isn't he? :) we do not speak about the way he achieved it but being such, he proved his efficiency with the Yukos 's results.
As it often turnes out, the leader on the market is not the best company but the one with the best reputation, i.e. PR ;)

Jet
05-11-2003, 16:54
Most of the observers -- Kommersant -- believ that while Putin is still chekist inside -- he is not only chekist. Don't forget that Putin has left the service in 1989, so by the time he entered Kremlin he was out of service for nearly ten years. I am not saying that he is a good leader, I am saying Khodor has nothing under his belt besides having had luck to get a piece of the pie.

About managerial skills, read about current US defence secretary Rumsfeld, he practically salvaged to sizeable companies - that's top manager. Khodor just made his already lucrative company transparent, there is no big deal by western standards. K. just looks favorable against the background of other local businesses. No, there is a need for another generation, Putin, Khodor, Yeltsin, Nemtsov these are all old soviet generation.

Aprill
05-11-2003, 17:03
who else then?

DJ Biscuit
05-11-2003, 17:04
Boris Grebenshikov for President!

Kshisya
05-11-2003, 17:12
Originally posted by Aprill
who else then?


:rolleyes: ...:confused: ...:rolleyes:

*shrug* Kshisechka!!!!!

:p

DJ Biscuit
05-11-2003, 17:15
Hehe, nice toon.

Wanna boogie?

Jet
05-11-2003, 17:15
Aprill, I only now that Russia doesn't need any radical changes in the direction its taken. There are issues like falling birth rates, mortality, homless children, AIDS etc To stop these problems from becoming an absolute disaster we need more or less stable country, so no new political elite, we have to deal with what we got. Khodor will only shake things down again if he are to go into politics.

Aprill
05-11-2003, 17:20
Jet, i associate K with the next generation that came after Yeltsin and Putin. These are entreprenuers like Beresovsky, Abramovich etc. As for new generation representatives needed , I agree to you that they woudl be the best alternative but it seems to me this generation is not formed yet.

Kshisya
05-11-2003, 17:56
Originally posted by DJ Biscuit
Hehe, nice toon.

Wanna boogie?

boOgie boogie ALWAYS ;) KHOCHU :D

Jet
05-11-2003, 18:29
No, Aprill, Abramovich, Berezovskiy, Khodorkovskiy, Putin, these are the same generation, Khodor was a komsomolyskiy vozhak. We need those who appreciate both the old and the new values, those are taking MBA courses, receiveing their second degrees, learning about Western systems, but at the same time respecting their own history. Who have no bad blood between politics and business. It is generation after us, those who are now in their early twenties and in twenty years will be at the helm of the country.

Missionary
06-11-2003, 00:15
Jet ...

I can appreciate your point of view, but to say that K is not intelligent or a good business man because he merely took advantage of the privatization of state companies is a little off base. First of all, how many people in a country the size of Russia were smart enough to take that advantage and thrust themselves into such a position. Here you could argue that many are smart enough, he just happened to be in the right position. Exactly! He was smart enough to make enough money and put himself in a favorable position before this advantage came along. I think it is ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS to say that anyone who has the ***** to amass a personal fortune estimated to be at or above $8 BILLION is not smart. How many people do you know that are worth $8 Billion, in personal wealth? I am not trying to be aggressive towards you or belittling in any way, I just think that statement is absolutely crazy.

Jet
06-11-2003, 02:13
hey Miss, i never said he was not smart !! that's BS

I am saying, that he is not the kind of manager that the country needs, the kind Mr.Rumsfeld, for example, is, who has helped to re-build the companies from very difficult positions. Oil industry was always a lucrative business in Russia, had he made his money from turning automotive or textile factories around, achieving international quality in their product lines, my opinion would have been different.

Missionary
06-11-2003, 09:06
But Jet, the man wasn't a poor farmer who just happened onto this oil business that the government was giving away. He purchased into this with a great deal of capital that he already had from other profitable businesses that he started and ran.

I am not on the K for President bandwagon by no means, but I am also not a supporter of a former KGB officer, no matter how far removed. You can take a boy out of the service, but you can't take the service out of the boy. Especially when the people he surrounds himself with are all former law enforcement and service. Sounds like a recipe for a police state to me.

I think you are probably right when you say this country needs some a new generation of leadership.

jheisel
06-11-2003, 12:40
Originally posted by Aprill
who else then?

Limonov, obviously!

Aprill
10-11-2003, 10:37
I can see clearly where the power is moving to but the very its destination, i.e. the police state seems denying the opportunity of a new generation coming.

It is also very interesting to watch the confrontation between Putin and EU on the subject of Chechnya and K., and human rights violation in Russia.

Seems like EU have been waiting long for such an opportunity to go on with the topic and the reaction of Putin in this situation will demonstrate the level of democracy here and the balance of power.

Jet
10-11-2003, 12:15
Aprill, u sound like a very young person, its not bad, but very few observers can confirm your warning of Russia becoming a police state.

Aprill
10-11-2003, 12:54
Jet, seems like you have run out of arguments and switched to personalities.
I express my own opinion on the subject and expect an adequate response.
It's not bad to agree with observers' opinion but as they cannot come to terms with each other I'd suggest you having your own one, even if someone considers it wrong.
L

Jet
10-11-2003, 13:36
Aprill,

What I meant was that u seem to take the events out of the context, the police state as you put it was a Russian way of governance for ages. What we have learned is that you can not just jump over the generations and build a Western way democracy regardless of the current political and social situation. In Holland it took over 500 years to build a civic society, and even now there is a monarchy that eats up a great deal of taxes. Yet people have learned to live with it and appreciate it.

Putin is far from being an efficient leader, but he was elected to the office and inherited the state and society that never knew a democracy, the society that has sustained a considerable damage from transition processes. Khodor should have realized that his quick running for political power and office would upset the balance of power too much. That is smth people do not need right now.

I dont' think u remember heated discussions among students in the end of 1980th about how we should change things and make an open Western-style society. Now many of us realize that it shouldn't have been done at any cost. Essentially, Putin and Khodor are a part of one generation: one made privatization possible, another - took advantage of it. So, these are two sides of one coin: political and commercial. The fight is inevitable, as one side wants the powers of the opposite side. It is simply the survival of the fittest, Khodor has lost. Only the next generations will be able to solve this problem.

Aprill
10-11-2003, 14:43
Originally posted by Jet Li
Aprill,

What I meant was that u seem to take the events out of the context, the police state as you put it was a Russian way of governance for ages.

Jet,

as we claimed the democracy being our priority and have been trying to follow that way, the roll-back we faced now came as a wakener. It's not the former way of governance but mostly the course change that strikes most.



What we have learned is that you can not just jump over the generations and build a Western way democracy regardless of the current political and social situation. In Holland it took over 500 years to build a civic society, and even now there is a monarchy that eats up a great deal of taxes. Yet people have learned to live with it and appreciate it.

I am not sure 500 years will be enough if we go on swinging from one extreme to another.


Putin is far from being an efficient leader, but he was elected to the office and inherited the state and society that never knew a democracy, the society that has sustained a considerable damage from transition processes. Khodor should have realized that his quick running for political power and office would upset the balance of power too much. That is smth people do not need right now.

Still, I cannot quite agree that a top-manager of a successful company yields to a former KGB officer in managarial skills or strategical thinking.



I dont' think u remember heated discussions among students in the end of 1980th about how we should change things and make an open Western-style society. Now many of us realize that it shouldn't have been done at any cost. Essentially, Putin and Khodor are a part of one generation: one made privatization possible, another - took advantage of it. So, these are two sides of one coin: political and commercial. The fight is inevitable, as one side wants the powers of the opposite side. It is simply the survival of the fittest, Khodor has lost. Only the next generations will be able to solve this problem.


I agree that the fight was inevitable but still, it is not over yet. Although K. has not many chances to win it, he may have a joker and turn the situation upside down before the elections.

Jet
10-11-2003, 15:01
yes, a number of journals named Khodor as Russia's top-manager, but there is no way they would think that Khodor is measuring up to the CEO positions of Shell, GM, Philips or BP. Absolutely, no way. People who run these companies represent the business management culture and education that will take Russia another twenty years to develop. I made an example of Rumsfeld - that's the kind of management skills required plus experience in two US administrations.

Putin is no better candidate than Khodor, but he is in power and yes he is an ex- KGB. More reasons for Khodor to choose another strategy, so this conflict shows that Khodor is not very bright when it comes to strategic thinking. He should have read more of Sun Tzu and Makiavelli.

Khodor could have potenmtially 'changed" things, but do u really think Russia can afford another turining "upside down" had Khodor had his way?

Missionary
10-11-2003, 21:30
Do you really think that Russia CAN'T afford another turning upside down?

Jet
10-11-2003, 21:39
Miss, have u ever LIVED THRU any of such turning upside down's??

J.D.
10-11-2003, 22:33
Putin is far from being an efficient leader, but he was elected to the office and inherited the state and society that never knew a democracy

What's this? He inherited a democracy of nearly 10 years from Yeltsin. He then proceeded to set things back 10 years.

J.D.
10-11-2003, 22:36
I almost forgot. He was not elected to the office initially either. He inherited it. And when the election did come around a few months later he probably wasn't elected then either.

Jet
10-11-2003, 23:34
That's what i was talking about: only 10 years of post-soviet period and there will be another 10 years of the same half-democratic half-good guys period. Remember, the alternative for Yeltsin and Putin were communists, the bad guys. So, Russia needs time, at least twenty years more.

Missionary
11-11-2003, 01:22
Jet,

No I have not lived through any such turning upside downs. However, I do know that if you want different results, you have to employ different means. If you continue to do things the way that they have always been done, you will continue to get things they way they have always been.

I know that change is good. If there is no change, there is no growth. That is just life.

Jet
11-11-2003, 01:32
Miss, if u haven't lived thru it, u shouldn't suggest people going thru it again and again.

I am by no means against changes, but "turning upside down" is a different matter, it implies radical changes yet again. We haven't concluded yet that Putin and his government are absolutely bad, if they were then the radical changes would be warranted.

Aprill
11-11-2003, 12:16
Well, why have you decided that K. would turn it upside down?

Jet
11-11-2003, 12:21
Originally posted by Aprill
he may have a joker and turn the situation upside down before the elections.

Aprill, your words.

Aprill
11-11-2003, 12:28
I did not mean the situation in the country, Jet :)

Jet
11-11-2003, 12:58
If u mean the election - any radical changes in the presidential race i.e. Khodor entrance - will have a profound impact on the country

Aprill
11-11-2003, 13:03
we are facing that right now *shrug*

Jet
11-11-2003, 13:26
we will see, Khodor is still under thumb, until they keep applying pressure, any impact can be contained

Ned Kelly
11-11-2003, 15:02
I'd really, really like to see Putin lose.

Aprill
11-11-2003, 15:44
what's wrong about Putin?

Ned Kelly
11-11-2003, 15:47
i didn't like how his eyes were bulging out of his head and his mouth frothing when that french journalist asked him a question. it put me off my meal and i was rather hungry at the time.

Aprill
11-11-2003, 15:48
ermmm, what was the question? :)

Ned Kelly
11-11-2003, 15:50
the question was irrelevant;) as vladimir vladimirovich explained to us, it had been sponsored by yukos.

Aprill
11-11-2003, 15:56
ugh, i missed it .
nice joke ;)