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Len Ganley Stance
08-08-2007, 17:38
Contrary to what my Liverpool friends on here might think, I'm not posting this to show how far ahead of the competition Manchester United are over the opposition. I do know that Football wasn't invented when the Premiership started.

But there are some interesting facts from the table -

1) United have scored 166 goals more than their nearest opponents in the 15 seasons the Premiership has been running. That's a pretty staggering difference.

2) As is, United's goal difference.

3) The Top 4 are a streets ahead of the opposition

4) How the hell Newcastle are fifth in the table is probably a reflection on how poor the League is outside of the Top 4.

5) Outside of the Top 4, only Aston Villa / Blackburn and Leeds have scored more goals than they have conceded. Villa and Blackburn could improve on those figures this season, but it will be (hopefully a very) long time before Leeds can do anything about their figures.

6) Tottenham Hotspur and Everton - despite what their supporters say - are rubbish. In the 15 years since the Premiership began, both of these teams have been ever present but Tottenham have lost a quiet staggering amount of games 218 and Everton an even more (or less) impressive 231 games (for Everton fans - that's even more than Southampton managed).

7) Tottenham have conceded 786 and Everton 775 goals since the Premiership began.

8) It's amazing to think that Southampton managed to stay in the Premiership for so long when you consider their Goal Difference.

9) Wimbledon having gained more points are a BIGGER club than Bolton. I reckon though that it's fairly certain that Bolton will move ahead of Bolton in the table this season.

Judge
08-08-2007, 17:49
Nice info Len, but give us the facts of all the english league,right from the beginning,not from when sky took over...

We should call you the new Mr Skyman.
Come on Len,you're better than this.
All i will say is this...

18 leagues and 5 european cups...

People who are reading this and don't know what Len is on about..

It's called jealousy ....


For the people on here who want to know why the likes of me and Len don't agree on things,have a read of this..Len it's a good read,trust me...


Liverpool v Manchester United More Than A Game!
Peter Hooton

This article first appeared in the May 2007 issue of 442 magazine. It was a side article to a report into Liverpool-Manchester United rivalry written by United We Stand editor Andy Mitten.


I have an admission to make. I do not hate and have never hated Manchester United Football Club. I do not hate them simply because I have never been in fear of or intimidated by the institution/ propaganda machine of Manchester United the SECOND most successful club in England. I believe it was George Bernard Shaw who wrote that ‘Hatred is the cowards’ revenge for being intimidated,’ and for the last few decades since my first visit to Old Trafford in the early 70’s and numerous subsequent visits, I have failed to subscribe to the hype from down the other end of the M62. I have been amused and bemused by United’s obsession and hatred of all things Liverpool- but never have I been intimidated! This enmity of course is based on success and which club is the biggest/most famous/most successful. Well I can answer that quite easily; they have got the biggest ground but we are the most successful - you’d have to ask an Eskimo which club is the most famous! It’s reminiscent of two heavy-weights slugging it out on the ropes looking for the knockout punch that never comes and the referee declares a draw. This bitterness and rancour is purely a modern phenomenon, a Liverpool season ticket holder since the 1950’s commented ‘rivalry did exist before the 70’s but that’s what it was, a healthy rivalry, devoid of real hatred.’ This is highlighted by a poll conducted in 1966 by a supporter’s magazine ‘The Kop’ naming Matt Busby as captain of a team of all-time Liverpool greats even though the ex-Liverpool midfielder had been United’s manager since leaving Anfield in 1946.Oh how things have changed!

It was my dad’s idea to give me a birthday treat by the way of a trip to Old Trafford in September 1973 the season United were relegated to the old Second Division. Bill Shankly’s second great team had won the Championship the previous season, whereas United were a shadow of the 1960’s outfit and were a club in turmoil. Their fans knew it – their empire was crumbling in dramatic fashion. Just before kick-off hundreds of tartan clad Stretford Enders resembling an army of Bay City Rollers fans invaded the pitch to attack Liverpool fans in the Scoreboard End. As a wide-eyed youngster it was a baptism of fire! Fighting was going on all around the ground and on the pitch. It was 1970’s mayhem, the age of innocence was well and truly dead and now I knew what this fixture meant to United fans- JEALOUSY and pure unadulterated HATRED! As Liverpool FC continued to collect trophies their loathing increased accordingly!

Little did they know that this period would be the catalyst for nearly twenty years of domestic and European dominance for Liverpool and would herald a similar period of humiliation and false dawns for the self styled glamour/biggest club in England? To really comprehend why United fans are so obsessed with Liverpool Football Club and sing about Scousers at nearly every given opportunity it is important to understand this period. Liverpool’s main rivals during the 70’s and 80’s were Leeds, Nottingham Forest, Arsenal, Ipswich, and in the mid 80’s Everton. Apart from the odd cup competition United were not on the radar. During this period United’s only saving grace for their green-eyed fans was their ability to raise their game against a rampant Liverpool and this became United’s raison d’etre. Is it any wonder that United fans want to wipe out this period from their selective memory banks as Liverpool went on to dominate these decades at home and abroad.

Mancunians though are pretty used to jealousy. In the 1960’s Liverpool spawned the Beatles and shaped popular culture worldwide whereas Manchester danced awkwardly to Freddie and the Dreamers. People might argue ‘what about The Hollies’ but just like Gary Neville that ‘uber-Manc,’ they weren’t really from Manchester but mainly from satellite towns surrounding Manchester. Since the 80’s things have been more even and both cities have left indelible marks on the canvas of popular music but it was a pretty one-sided affair in the 60’s.Municipal rivalry commenced well before Beatlemania as it always does between two major cities 30 miles apart but I don’t buy into this Manchester Ship Canal v Liverpool Docks revisionism nonsense as the reason for the Liverpool/Man United rivalry. If this was the case why don’t Liverpool hate Manchester City or United hate Everton. I’ll tell you why, because they are no threat whatsoever to either of the heavy-weights.

In the 19th century Liverpool had sea-shanties, bustling docksides clipper ships and the romance of the sea whereas Manchester was epitomised by dark satanic mills, black-pudding, morris dancers and clogs. Liverpool has always possessed a certain je ne se quoi which Manchester simply doesn’t have. Manchester is fundamentally a small, damp, ugly, looking industrial city surrounded by mill towns creating a Greater Manchester with no discernable land marks apart from the hideous looking Trafford centre and Old Trafford. Liverpool’s land marks on the other hand are world –famous, The Liverpool Waterfront recently awarded world heritage status, the two magnificent cathedrals, St Georges Hall, The Walker Art Gallery, The Albert Dock and the most number of listed buildings outside London.

5 simple comparisons

The Kop v The Stretford End. 1-0
The Beatles v Herman’s Hermits. 2-0
The Mersey v Manchester Ship Canal 3-0
Capital of Culture bid v Manchester Olympic bid. 4-0
5 European Cups 18 League Titles v 2 European Cups and 15 League Titles. 5-0


When it comes to football however both clubs are remarkably similar. Both have been touched by tragedies. Both were built up by Scots from mining stock that fashioned their respective clubs in their image. Their legacy can still be felt in the corridors of both stadiums! Bill Shankly and Matt Busby both have statues erected in their honour and you can feel them watching over the empires they built, like guardian angels! Liverpool fans perception is that the media has never given their unequalled achievements the credit they deserve whereas United success since the 90’s has been totally overstated. The ‘theatre of dreams’ tag and the Hollywood style film premiere of ‘Beyond the Promised Land’ about the 1999 season being two examples of their conspicuous vulgarity, a red carpeted arrogance indeed!

During the late 90’s after years of denial, Liverpool fans did eventually give United some grudging respect for their comeback against Juventus in the 1999 Champions League semi final which United won 3-2 in Italy after being 2-0 down. After years of calling United ‘lucky’ the more objective fans started to say things like ‘you’ve got to give them credit for that result.’ This opinion was tempered by the perception amongst fans that during their successful years United were bad losers and even worse still, bad winners. Liverpool may have had an air of superiority about them in the 70’s, 80’s and early 90’s but they were never despised as United were! Alex Ferguson must have breathed a sigh of relief when Jose Mourinho came along and Chelsea became the team people loved to hate.

I don’t know whether we should go back as far as this because it’s in the past and United fans as we know don’t like to talk about the past but following their late victory against Bayern Munich in The Nou Camp in 1999 to lift the Champions League Liverpool fans once again convinced themselves that United hadn’t deserved to win because up until two corners in injury time Bayern Munich had been in total control. To many Liverpool fans, United were, after all ‘jammy bastards’ but as Liverpool fans we should remember that during our glory days, opposing fans used to sing at us, ‘Oh lucky lucky, lucky lucky lucky lucky Liverpool,’ as Liverpool inevitably snatched the points with a late winner. It seems all good teams appear fortunate.

After this result in 1999 United fans then started to recite their mantra ‘The Champions League is much harder to win than the old European Cup so it counts for more.’ This widely held opinion regurgitated on phone-ins and in fanzines was conveniently dropped in May 2005 when the unthinkable happened for United fans and to their horror and dismay Rafa Benitez led Liverpool to an unlikely 5th European triumph in Istanbul. Their achievements in Europe had been wiped out by Rafa in his first season at the club. This hurt them! For all their success in the Premiership, United have never been able to dominate Europe like Liverpool did in the 70’ and 80’s and this is their Achilles heel and don’t Liverpool fans know it. United fans even had to stop singing ‘you’re not famous anymore’ and put their enormous flag suggesting the same, into the attic. Everyone knows that to be regarded as a truly great team/club that team has to dominate Europe over a 5-10 year period as Real Madrid/Ajax/Milan/Bayern and of course Liverpool have done. This fact really annoys United fans and they can’t really come to terms with it. They might be able to attract 76,000 to Old Trafford buy players for 30 million and have the biggest turnover in Europe but you simply can’t buy European success. They always say Liverpool fans are living in the past but that 5th European Cup has certainly silenced them for now. In the recent Premiership fixture at Anfield when United stole the points, Alex Ferguson gave Liverpool a back-handed compliment by coming for a goalless draw, something United haven’t done at Anfield for years. They know deep down that if Liverpool keep Rafa and with the new investment, Liverpool once again will be a force in the Premiership and their worst nightmare may still come true, Liverpool lifting their 6th European Cup with United still on two, the same as Nottingham Forest.

This is surely why they sing about Liverpool all the time. In the recent FA Cup tie against Middlesbrough at the Riverside it took them all of 30 seconds before they started singing anti-Scouse songs. I can assure you that unless we are playing United, they will never ever be mentioned. United fans produce an enormously popular magazine called ‘Red Issue’ which spews out poisonous articles about Liverpudlians written by people who have probably never met a Scouser. This simply would never happen with a Liverpool fanzine, the readership would simply reject it as ‘infantile woolyback mentality.’ No indifference is our main weapon. I am convinced that their fascination and infatuation is a form of obsessive compulsive disorder, revealing a deep-rooted inferiority complex, it’s a cry for help, as they really want to be Scousers revealed by their adulation of Rooney. As the old Roman saying goes ‘they hate whom they fear!’ Of course Liverpool fans are concerned that United are closing in on our 18 League titles but we are supremely confident that United will never reach 5 European Cups before the ice caps melt. As the flag stated after Istanbul ‘Fergie we’re back on our ****in’ perch!’

I rest my case your honour!


By Peter Hooton (Kop Season Ticket holder)

Len Ganley Stance
08-08-2007, 20:31
Judge,

You obviously missed my opening remark in the thread opener. To remind you, it read -

Contrary to what my Liverpool friends on here might think, I'm not posting this to show how far ahead of the competition Manchester United are over the opposition. I do know that Football wasn't invented when the Premiership started.

Of course we all know that Liverpool have won 18 League Championships and 5 European Cups. You constantly remind us of the fact. With a bit of consistency and an element of luck, at the end of this season United might be only one behind you as far as League Champiionships are concerned. I do reckon that Chelsea will win the League though.

I did try to find an All-Time League Table for the Old First Division (so, BS- Before Sky in other words), to show you just how well you've done over the years. Unfortuately all I could find was the link below for a table which includes the Premiership and only goes up to the end of the 2005/06 season. So it doesn't include last season in other words. You'll be glad to hear though that Liverpool are indeed on top of this table and United are in a rather pathetic fourth place. We are some distance behind Liverpool and also behind Arsenal and your Merseyside neighbours. Anyway, here's the link and you can peruse it at your leisure.

All Time 1st Level Table (http://www.the-english-football-archive.com/records/1st_level_table.htm)

Now moving along to Mr. Hooton's article. I had read it before and you're right it is a good read. There are a number of things I would take issue with though, one of them him banging on about Liverpool had the Beatles while Manchester had Fredde and the Dreamers. I could suggest that as according to a lot of Liverpool supporters, most United supporters are from London, that we had the Rolling Stones / The Who / The Small Faces etc etc to dance awkwardly to, but that would be just me being silly.

I'm surprised that Mr. Hooton would bring up the subject of music, in suggesting that Liverpool has produced better bands than Manchester has done. The reason I'm surprised by that is that people might actually remember that the same Mr. Hooton was the main man in that goddawful band - The Farm.

Both Manchester like Liverpool has produced some very good bands although for me Manchester has the edge. You can make your own mind up -

A list of bands from Manchester (from wiki) -

List of bands from Manchester - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A list of bands from Merseyside -

List of bands from Merseyside - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png

Incidentially did you know that The Farm's biggest hit - All Together Now' was used by Everton.

Judge
08-08-2007, 21:25
The article is also about the history why both cities hate each other,like you know,2 main cities being so close to one another,there will be hatred.The list of bands was very helpful,i never knew where most of the bands came from,and thanks for the info about the song,All Together Now, good song but now i'll think of the bluenoses everytime i hear it.

Manchester never really had anything to cheer about back in the 70's and 80's ,and back in the 60's the Beatles rocked the world and put Liverpool on the map and the football team of Liverpool kept Liverpool on the map during the 70's and 80's.The 90's were all about Manchester and the music as well,Oasis helped to keep Manchester on top of the music world.If you mention a band from Manchester to a band in Liverpool, Liverpool bands will always come out on top,at the end of the day,it's down to music taste.

Name me a band from Manchester that comes close to Atomic Kitten:farout::farout:

Judge
08-08-2007, 21:34
Thanks for this link....All Time 1st Level Table (http://www.the-english-football-archive.com/records/1st_level_table.htm)

It's nice to see Liverpool where they belong.
To be honest,i'm a little worried about UTD closing in on Liverpool's 18 leagues,i recon Fergie will only retire when he passes Liverpool or he will retire if Liverpool start winning the league.

Mersey-toff
08-08-2007, 23:25
We've already had this discussion in the past but......

The only fair way to do the universal first level table is to count 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw as this was the way points were calculated for the longest period of top flight football in England.

It is the only fair way to compare performances over the whole life of top flight football in England since the Football League was founded in 1878 up to the present day.

On this basis Everton Football Club is proudly top of the table 10 points ahead of the second placed team. :hooray:

This is something the Mancs, Kopites and the Arse can't and won't accept :grind:

Len Ganley Stance
08-08-2007, 23:36
If you mention a band from Manchester to a band in Liverpool, Liverpool bands will always come out on top,at the end of the day,it's down to music taste.

Considering - to name a few - bands like Buzzcocks / Magazine / Joy Division / New Order / The Smiths / James / The Stone Roses / The Charlatans / The Happy Mondays / Black Grape / The Verve plus the greatest band of all time, The Fall all hail from Manchester, I will take the above comment with a large pinch of salt. The best band to come out of Merseyside (if that includes the Wirral!) are Half Man Half Biscuit - and one of their songs is where my login name on here come from.

You're right though it is all down to musical taste. I never was a Beatles fan. For sure they were a good band but I don't think that they were pushing any musical boundaries in comparison with other bands in the 60's. That's a debate we can have at a later date though.



Name me a band from Manchester that comes close to Atomic Kitten:farout::farout:

I can't. Thankfully!

Judge
08-08-2007, 23:38
How right you are,but Liverpool will make up the 10 points this season.

Len Ganley Stance
08-08-2007, 23:43
This is something the Mancs, Kopites and the Arse can't and won't accept :grind:

Mersey-Toff,

I'll accept anything that keeps the Kopites off the top of the table. It is however a totally reasonable argument, considering the two points for a win was in operation for so long.

While we're on the subject of footie, why don't you toodle on up to the thread on the top of the sports board about Fantasy Footie and get a team in. I'm sure you'd like nothing more than putting a couple of Kopites and at least two Mancs in their place, by showing us your superior football knowledge.

Go on get a team in.

Mersey-toff
08-08-2007, 23:45
Remind me for a minute: who did we get 4 points from last season? :rolleyes:

Judge
08-08-2007, 23:50
Remind me for a minute: who did we get 4 points from last season? :rolleyes:

Nice comeback...you best watchout,Len will comeback with 10 years of results.