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TGP
30-06-2007, 22:28
I wouldn't pay much attention and place this article on this forum (one more opus about how wrong/bad Russia is with her wish to follow her own points of view on her own history), if Putin was not accused of being " a strictly observant Orthodox Christian, which is almost as demanding as being a strictly observant Orthodox Jew". :eek:

Looks like this Pavel (note, not Paul, but Pavel), who wrote the article, favors neither Jews, nor Russians...

What label will be put on Putin (read: Russia) next, I wonder.

Oh, boy...


KREMLIN REJECTS "FOREIGN" APPROACH TO RUSSIAN HISTORY

By Pavel Felgenhauer

Wednesday, June 27, 2007, Eurasia Daily Monitor

Last week President Vladimir Putin met with a selected group of
delegates attending a Kremlin-organized conference, "Timely Issues in
Teaching Modern History and Social Science." Putin told the teachers:
"Many school books are written by people who work to get foreign grants.
They dance to the polka that others have paid for. You understand? These
books, regrettably, get into schools and universities." Putin demanded
new history textbooks that "make our citizens, especially the young,
proud of their country" and reiterated "no one must be allowed to impose
the feeling of guilt on us."

Putin pledged to hand out government grants to authors who will write
proper new textbooks. Following his recent pattern, he used the meeting
to again lash out at the United States. "Yes, we had terrible pages in
Russia's history," he said. "Let us recall the events since 1937, and
let us not forget that. But in other countries [the U.S.], it has been
said, it was more terrible." Putin suggested that Washington's use of
nuclear weapons against Japan at the end of World War II was worse than
Stalin's political repression and mass murder. Putin also cited the U.S.
bombing campaign and use the defoliant Agent Orange during the Vietnam
War (official transcript, www.kremlin.ru, June 21).

The teachers' delegation dutifully rallied to Putin's patriotic call.
Leonid Polyakov, chair of the department of political science at the
Higher School of Economics and author of a new, officially approved
textbook, announced that his colleges have undertaken the task to create
a "national-patriotic ideology." These principles will help teachers in
the "civic-patriotic education" of students as a supplement to
"traditional military-patriotic education."

Polyakov implied that Russia did not lose the Cold War, but instead
"voluntarily disarmed" and imported a "shaky, abstract ideology of
universal values, of words 'freedom,' 'democracy,' 'market,' 'human
rights,' and 'civil society'." According to Putin, this foreign ideology
has created a "mishmash" in Russian heads and in Russian society that
must be corrected. Later, speaking on a Russian First Channel talk show
Sunday, June 24, Polyakov argued that the invasion of Afghanistan by
Russian troops in 1979 was neither a crime nor a mistake, but a Cold War
decision in Russia's interest, taken after due diligence by the Kremlin.

Polyakov graduated from university in 1973 as a Marxist philosopher and
teacher of Marxist-Leninist Social Science. Putin graduated from
university two years later, already recruited to become a KGB spy.
Polyakov told Putin that today he is a happy man after being called upon
to write a new textbook, that his life efforts, experience, and
education are once again needed and that social science is back in the
curriculum.

In Moscow during communist rule, it was often said that Russia is a
nation with an unpredictable past. History was written one way and then
repeatedly rewritten again. After the collapse of the USSR in 1991, it
seemed for a time that the writing of textbooks and history in general
would be freed of strict state control. Of course, historians, teachers,
and journalists had been trained during the communist-era, but in a
relatively free country new methodologies, untainted by totalitarianism,
could rise -- but freedom did not last in Russia.

Putin specifically noted that the history of World War II and Russia's
history after 1991 are wrongly interpreted and must be rewritten. Today
Stalin has again been rehabilitated as a leader who made mistakes, but
still secured victory over Nazi Germany. The 1990s -- a decade when
Russia was a freer state than at anytime before or since -- today is
demonized. The pro-Kremlin youth movement Molodaya Gvardia has announced
it will be organizing marches in Yekaterinburg and other cities in
support of Putin and against the regime's critics under the slogan, "No
return to the 1990s" (RIA-Novosti, June 26).

Maybe even more important than the rewriting of history, is that Putin
once again in unequivocal terms spelled out that he considers any
Russian citizen or organization that receives any grants or other
financial support from abroad in any form to be a paid agent of foreign
interests -- a traitor. The traitors dance a "polka" ordered by the
enemies of Russia. In fact, Putin said it was a "butterfly polka"
(polka-babochka) -- a dance few perform or know anything about. The
expression itself is totally alien to modern Russian ears. It is an
expression from the Stalinist era that Putin perhaps remembered from
long ago, and it is a notion of total paranoia and xenophobia, minted
during a time when anti-Americanism was the cornerstone of
"military-patriotic education."

Putin's personal paranoia and anti-Americanism seem to be growing and
are increasingly dominating external and internal Russian politics. This
does not mean that Russia is indeed reverting to communist
totalitarianism. Putin is not a "Commie," but a strictly observant
Orthodox Christian, which is almost as demanding as being a strictly
observant Orthodox Jew. It apparently was Putin's explicit Christian
observance that fooled George W. Bush at their first meeting in 2001
into seeing a reclusive Kremlin dictator as a potential close ally. That
was a total illusion, since many in the hierarchy of the Russian
Orthodox Church tend to be as anti-Western, anti-American, xenophobic,
and just as paranoid as are Russian Communists, the military, and the
former KGB.

Kokomo
30-06-2007, 22:56
interesting article.

though its not just about putin and the orthodox church as a whole,

I think the school textbooks should be re-written too. the russian school books were indeed re-written in the 90s, "funded" by george soros, in order to take the "next step" in the early 90s to get 'some correct points" about world history as a whole.

I have seen those textbooks, and did question some of the history (then).

TGP
30-06-2007, 23:19
interesting article.

though its not just about putin and the orthodox church as a whole,

I think the school textbooks should be re-written too. the russian school books were indeed re-written in the 90s, "funded" by george soros, in order to take the "next step" in the early 90s to get 'some correct points" about world history as a whole.

I have seen those textbooks, and did question some of the history (then).

Yes, the textbooks should be re-written, that's what is being discussed now, but isn't it Russia's home issue? It never comes to our minds to tell other countries that it would be good if they had their textbooks re-written and this process will be funded by us (hipothetically). Sounds a bit crazy to my mind.
But there is nothing new for me in this approach to Russia, but the thesis about the Russian Orthodox Chirch really made me laugh. This chirch has been Russian national religion for many centuries, and now it turns out it is wrong religion.

Kokomo
02-07-2007, 13:07
anyone foreign (in this case) to the Russian Orthodox Church, will try to go against it, for their own interest, be it the athiest, other religious jurisdiction, the press, foreign or global think tanks.

Packman
03-07-2007, 11:44
Look, re-write the history books if you want, but the problem here is that the gov't never officially acknowledged many of its past misdeeds. Maybe Russian nationalists or Russians in general might have a more nuanced view perhaps of the Baltics if they understood that the SU invaded them first...killed and deported many and the Nazi's were seen as liberators when they arrived.

But this information won't be put in the new books because this would require Russia to look at some of its own misdeeds. Furthermore if the population had a greater understanding of these events it might not be possible to fan the fires or hate or outrage every time something happens in the Baltics with the Russian population there or some statue is moved. This clearly wouldn't serve Putin's nazi-esque policies...

The Baltics are just one issue here...but there are many.

TGP
03-07-2007, 19:37
Look, re-write the history books if you want, but the problem here is that the gov't never officially acknowledged many of its past misdeeds. Maybe Russian nationalists or Russians in general might have a more nuanced view perhaps of the Baltics if they understood that the SU invaded them first...killed and deported many and the Nazi's were seen as liberators when they arrived.

But this information won't be put in the new books because this would require Russia to look at some of its own misdeeds. Furthermore if the population had a greater understanding of these events it might not be possible to fan the fires or hate or outrage every time something happens in the Baltics with the Russian population there or some statue is moved. This clearly wouldn't serve Putin's nazi-esque policies...

The Baltics are just one issue here...but there are many.

Yeah, and the Russian Orthodox Chirch is to be to blame for everything.

Fantastika
03-07-2007, 22:20
Look, re-write the history books if you want, but the problem here is that the gov't never officially acknowledged many of its past misdeeds. Maybe Russian nationalists or Russians in general might have a more nuanced view perhaps of the Baltics if they understood that the SU invaded them first...killed and deported many and the Nazi's were seen as liberators when they arrived.

But this information won't be put in the new books because this would require Russia to look at some of its own misdeeds. Furthermore if the population had a greater understanding of these events it might not be possible to fan the fires or hate or outrage every time something happens in the Baltics with the Russian population there or some statue is moved. This clearly wouldn't serve Putin's nazi-esque policies...

The Baltics are just one issue here...but there are many.



C'mon Packman, quit being so negative!

Try look at it from Russian point of view. (I think I am here too long, I am losing my verb tenses and my articles - "a", "the". Anyway, I have a hard time seeing things from the US - I should say Euronews/CNN's point of view, if they have one besides "stir everything up, make everyone hate each other".)

The Russians in the Baltic countries are much more concerned about recent history, history that effects them, not their long-dead ancestors. They are concerned about laws, such as the one passed that prohibits the Russian language. How would like to wake up and find out you are not allowed to do business in your own English language, and that Spanish was now the only language allowed? How would you deal with government, police, hospital, if they refused to speak English?

Would you be outraged? As a person whose ancestors grew up America and who also spoke English? I would, too.

I am reminded of my Chinese friend in Indonesia, where the government passed a law making it a criminal offense to display a sign in Chinese language, even on their own storefront. My friend and his ancestor have been there for countless generations, yet the Malays have decided to ban the Chinese culture. Which only gives justification for attacks, robberies, and worse on ethnic Chinese.

In the US, we understand the importance of inclusion of minorities, and their languages, but the Baltic countries absolutely do not, even when they are 40% ethnic Russian.

The US has been pursuing a policy of diviseness as far as Russia is concerned, ever since Russia and its leaders decided total Communism was a bad idea, and allowed the West in. Once they got their foot in the door, they wanted to "remodel" the whole house. Or, it seems, to me, demolish the house, by telling the ethnic families living within how much better they would be with divorces and promoting discord and animosity among the people living there, emphasizing what other ethnic families had done what evil things to them in the past.

Communism may be a dead deal in Russia but unfortunately there are many powerful politicians in the US who still dream of this illusory utopia. We will probably have one of them masquarading as a "president" next year.

Us policy has been to encourage the splitting off and ethnic separation of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Armenia, Georgia, Dagastan, Chechnya, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldava, etc. To encourage diviseness and confrontation within Russia, through US AID, and funding of non-governmental agencies.

World mainstream media waxed concerned that the election in Ukraine was not fair, so they stationed thousands of non-biased observers in the Russian-speaking part of the country, and zero in the Ukrainian half. Since the country is 50% Ukrainian (and only 50% Russian) obviously the Ukrainian half should be able to rule with no say-so from the Russian half. Of course. And why should the Ruissians be allowed to speak Russian? There should be only one language - Ukranian, even though the Russia half of the country has been living there, and speaking Russian, for the past millennium (1000 years, for those of you in California.)

US media constantly states that Chechnya is a "breakaway republic" (neither word has anything to do with reality) and should have independence.
What happened when the Russians DID grant independence to the poor misunderstood country, was that their "leaders" immediately exported their terrorism and "freedom fighters" into the next terror-tory of Russia.

How can anyone doubt the righteousnes of the Chechnayn Freedom Fighters, those brave warirors who valiantly slaughtered 300 dangerous Russian schoolchildren?

The US and Nato bombed Yugoslavia so it is now 6 or 7 little countries. As a result, do we have peace? No, now we have two countryfuls of potential Albanian and Kosovan terrorists financially supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia, thank you Bill Clinton. He thought he was saving them, he was actually postponing them for the next president.

Lastly, suppose the Russians (or some super-super-power) bombed California for 6 months, basically completely destroying the infrastructure of the state, (i.e., reducing highways, waterworks, government buildings and the Chinese Embassy to rubble) and demanded that the :"breakway Republic" of East LA and the breakway "Republic" of Haileah, Florida, become independent countries, because they are majority Cuban and Mexican - this is what Clinton did to Serbia and Kosovo.

If someone wants Putin to "apologize" for the past "misdeeds" of Russia, well, first they should apologize for their own misdeeds. If such a person or country exist, it will be greatest person/country of all time. But i can't imagine you are successful if you say to yourself and others you are bad and evil.

Really if a country is "man" enough and "big" enough to do that, then everyone else might (probably not) soon follow. But if you demand that everyone else apologize for their own misdeeds, while you stand back and not participate, well, good luck...

If we never forget a wrong, no matter how far in the past it is (and you don't have to read past Page One to see there are many who refuse to forget), then we will have no future.

Packman, I'm not picking on you, Please don't take this personally. I feel the same way no matter who is so negative!

fenrir
04-07-2007, 13:13
They are concerned about laws, such as the one passed that prohibits the Russian language. How would you deal with government, police, hospital, if they refused to speak English?

Which country has done that? Here in Estonia all government services are available in Russian. My Russian wife, our daughter and I went to our family doctor (an Estonian woman in a state-run hospital) for a check-up and the doctor spoke English to me and Russian to my wife. When my wife had to submit her papers for a new residency and work permit, the woman at the migration board spoke Russian to her too. All the information and forms were in both languages. They speak Russian and Estonian at my and my wife's companies. No problem.

Fantastika
07-07-2007, 22:05
Which country has done that? Here in Estonia all government services are available in Russian. My Russian wife, our daughter and I went to our family doctor (an Estonian woman in a state-run hospital) for a check-up and the doctor spoke English to me and Russian to my wife. When my wife had to submit her papers for a new residency and work permit, the woman at the migration board spoke Russian to her too. All the information and forms were in both languages. They speak Russian and Estonian at my and my wife's companies. No problem.

Fenrir, I have never been to Estonia, so you know a lot more than i do.

On the other hand, why is it that ethnic Russians have to get visas to leave their own country?

I don't have my facts lined up in a row of ducks, but I have seen the protests in at least one of the Baltic countries - sorry, I am lumping all the Baltic countries together.

When I wrote about language problems, i was thinking of the many times in US where people don't speak English. My residence (in the 2-3 months very year that I don't spend here, cause of the bad-ass-Winter) is close to DC, and I go to Home Depot, or Lowe's or K-mart or Walmart, etc., and it irritates me (and makes my search for what I'm looking for difficult) that 90% of clerks can not answer a simple question in English.

My car broke down in Texas, and no one would help me, no one would speak English.

I lived in Miami, 15 years ago, and the phone was unuseable even then, everyone only spoke Spanish. It seems my own country is not mine, anymore.

Certainly the president of Ukraine :queen:could have become a real unifying force and a bona-fide international leader if he took the opportunity to stand up on the world stage and declare Russian a 2nd official language, but after what they did to him, he probably was not in the mood to forgive and forget. To bad, after that, he could really have been king of the world.

So the 45% (or whatever) Russians there, continue to refer to Grivna's as Rubles, when you do business. At least the Ukrainians are doing a lot better. Unfortunately for me. Last year i could get the hotel room for $5/day, and those days are gone forever.

I am worried about US losing the ability for its citizens to communicate with one another, so maybe I am overly sympathetic to Russians outside Russia to continue to live as they were accustomed before the upheavals of the 1980's-90's. If you want a real horror story, consider Turkmenistan, where ethnic Russians are banned from government and hi-tech jobs, of course the country is in a sad state.

On the one hand, I really love this country, Russia, and I really love USA, and both countries seem to be losing the right to enjoy speaking their own language.

About Estonia, my friend said he went there to russian embassy to get Russian visa (he is teacher here), can you tell me it is expensive to stay there in hotel while I wait for visa? BTW, do they speak English there?:nut: Also, there seems to be talk about better to go to Narva...

Best regards


I guess Estonia is the good guy



News from Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania (http://www.balticsworldwide.com/wkcrier/0104_0118_99.htm)

Estonia now has one of the largest number of Russian citizens of any country in the world outside Russia, the Russian embassy in Tallinn said on January 15.
Nearly 120,000, mostly-ethnic residents in Estonia have taken citizenship of Russia since Estonia regained independence following the Soviet collapse in 1991, according to embassy press spokesman Andrei Kotov.

The majority of the Russian citizens in Estonia immigrated during Soviet rule and live here permanently, but have found qualifying for Estonian citizenship too difficult, Kotov said.

Acquiring Estonian citizenship requires language and history tests, plus an oath of loyalty. Russia grants citizenship to all former Soviet citizens who apply, with virtually no conditions and regardless of where they live.

"Since they could get Russian citizenship much easier, they took it instead of Estonian citizenship," the official said.

With Russian passports, ethnic Russians also don't need visas to visit relatives and friends in Russia and, in some cases, this may also be one of the motives for taking Russian citizenship, Kotov said.

"But somehow this is not a normal situation for Estonia," he said. "Most countries do not have so many citizens of another country living permanently on its territory."

The spokesman said he believed Estonia had the largest number of Russian citizens of any country outside Russia, but said he did not currently have the figures to confirm it.

After Estonia (pop. 1.5 million) regained its independence in 1991, the issue of citizenship for its 400,000-strong ethnic-Russian minority became a point of contention with Moscow.

The Kremlin accused Estonia of using citizenship laws to disenfranchise ethnic Russians who can't vote in national elections and can't hold some state jobs—including the police— without citizenship.

Russia has been especially critical of the Estonian-language tests required for citizenship. Many ethnic Russian speak little or no Estonian and so can’t pass the necessary language exams.

Estonia granted automatic citizenship only to those who were citizens before the 1940 Soviet occupation and their descendants. This included virtually all ethnic Estonians and some 80,000 ethnic Russians.

Another 100,000 ethnic Russians, who already spoke Estonian before the Soviet break-up or learned it since then, have successfully acquired Estonian citizenship through naturalization.

The remaining 100,000 ethnic Russians who can't get Estonian citizenship and have decided against taking citizenship of Russia, do not carry passports of any country.



VILNIUS, July 4 (Itar-Tass) - Lithuania’s state-run television LTV will close the Russian-language news program in September.



RIGA, August 15, 2006 (RFE/RL) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin in June gave the nod to a package of incentives aimed at bringing ethnic Russians living abroad back to Russia. Latvia, whose large Russian diaspora has long been complaining of bad treatment, is one country where this program seems likely to generate interest.

Olga, 18, and her friend Misha, 20, belong to the second generation of ethnic Russians born and bred in Latvia after the country was incorporated into the Soviet Union in 1940.

Like all Russians here, they have heard of Putin's proposed repatriation scheme. But they are not interested.

"Who is waiting for us there?" Olga says.

"Yes, who needs us there?" Misha agrees.

"They won't treat us like Russians, who needs us there?" Olga adds. "After all, Latvia is our motherland."

Ready To Go Home

Not all ethnic Russians living in Latvia, who make up some 30 percent of the population, have the same notion of motherland, however. Many, regardless of where they were born, regard Russia as their country of origin.

And like Yevgeny, an elderly man who gave only his first name, many are showing keen interest in Russia's proposal.

"In connection with the collapse of our country, the former Soviet Union, we consider it Russia's duty to provide for a return to our motherland, to help repatriates with employment, housing, legal, and social issues," Yevgeny says. "For us, this presidential program is a salvation. But if it falls through, it will be a real tragedy for the many thousands of Russians who have found themselves abroad, including in Latvia."

"I had to pledge loyalty to this government, and if I protest against unjust laws that to a large extent aim at discriminating against Latvia's Russian-speaking population, I'm declared disloyal."Under the program, those who agree to come back would receive cash, social benefits, and assistance in applying for Russian citizenship.

Russia hopes an influx of repatriates will help stem the country's alarming population decline. There are about 30 million ethnic Russians living in the former Soviet Union.

Yevgeny heads an organization that aims to help ethnic Russians return to Russia. Over the past few years, he says, the group has repeatedly asked the Russian authorities to facilitate the return of ethnic Russians.

Discrimination In Latvia?

So what makes people like Yevgeny so eager to trade Latvia for Russia, a country with a standard of lower living and an uncertain future?

Ethnic Russians abroad tend to retain strong emotional ties to Russia.

But the situation in Latvia is specific. Ethnic Russians say they are being discriminated against and stigmatized by Latvians.

"I have the honor of introducing myself: Vladislavs Rafalskis, enemy of the people, according to the Latvian press and authorities. Enemy of the Latvian people," says Vladislavs Rafalskis, a Russian deputy on Riga's city council and a teacher in a local Russian school.

Rafalskis has angered local authorities with his campaign to block an education reform that now requires Russian schools to teach at least 60 percent of their curriculum in Latvian.

In 2004, Rafalskis was accused of public disorder and fined for helping stage a massive protest rally in Riga.

The reform, he says angrily, is just one of the many discriminatory laws that Latvian deputies have pushed through over the past 15 years.

The party he represents, For Human Rights in United Latvia, defends the rights of Russian speakers, who make up as much as 40 percent of Latvia's population.


An Alien's Passport

Another chief grievance is the procedure that all ethnic Russians -- including those born in Latvia -- have to undergo to obtain Latvian citizenship:

"We have to go through a very humiliating procedure," Rafalskis says. "We have to take a Latvian-language test, a test on Latvian history, a test on Latvian culture. I've lived all my life in this country and of course I know its history, culture, and language. I had to pledge loyalty to this government, and if I protest against unjust laws that to a large extent aim at discriminating against Latvia's Russian-speaking population, I'm declared disloyal."

Rafalskis says nationalist deputies are now preparing new legislation that would allow authorities to strip foreigners deemed disloyal to Latvia of their Latvian citizenship.

A Russian Orthodox church in Riga (RFE/RL)Hundreds of thousands of ethnic Russians, including Olga and Misha, have refused to apply for a Latvian passport out of principle.

As a result, they have no citizenship -- only a Latvian document called an "alien's passport." This document bars them from voting in Latvia and from traveling freely to either Russia or the European Union, which Latvia joined in 2004.

Only four countries in the world accept holders of "alien's passports" without a visa: the three Baltic states and Denmark.

fenrir
09-07-2007, 12:29
If you want to come to Tallinn for a visa, it's going to be expensive to stay here unless you get a hostel. It is high season and many places are fully booked. Check it out before you arrive and reserve. You can find everything you need about accommodation online.

You had better know some Russian or have someone with you if you go to the Russian consulate here. At least that has been my experience, though I haven't dealt with them for a few years now. Maybe things have changed. Almost everyone else in Tallinn speaks English so it is a very friendly city to hang around in and explore while waiting for your visa to be processed. Narva might be a better option because I hear (but don't know as a fact) that the lines are much shorter. Just forget about English there, though.

I am from Miami and one of the reasons I have no desire to move back is because there is more English spoken here in Tallinn than there is there. Funny how my home city seems more foreign than an actually foreign capital is.

Packman
13-07-2007, 04:28
There are so many over the top statements I will try to deal only with the most outlandish...



The Russians in the Baltic countries are much more concerned about recent history, history that effects them, not their long-dead ancestors. They are concerned about laws, such as the one passed that prohibits the Russian language. How would like to wake up and find out you are not allowed to do business in your own English language, and that Spanish was now the only language allowed? How would you deal with government, police, hospital, if they refused to speak English?


In the US, we understand the importance of inclusion of minorities, and their languages, but the Baltic countries absolutely do not, even when they are 40% ethnic Russian.

Well I would agree about the language issue...but why are they in some cases 40% of the population? Because of deportations...killings...of Balts and resettlement of Russians...

Why don't the Estonians by the way have the right to remove a statue if they want...or should the US not have removed statues of George III after independance???


The US has been pursuing a policy of diviseness as far as Russia is concerned, ever since Russia and its leaders decided total Communism was a bad idea, and allowed the West in. Once they got their foot in the door, they wanted to "remodel" the whole house. Or, it seems, to me, demolish the house, by telling the ethnic families living within how much better they would be with divorces and promoting discord and animosity among the people living there, emphasizing what other ethnic families had done what evil things to them in the past.

Communism may be a dead deal in Russia but unfortunately there are many powerful politicians in the US who still dream of this illusory utopia. We will probably have one of them masquarading as a "president" next year.

Us policy has been to encourage the splitting off and ethnic separation of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Armenia, Georgia, Dagastan, Chechnya, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldava, etc. To encourage diviseness and confrontation within Russia, through US AID, and funding of non-governmental agencies.

World mainstream media waxed concerned that the election in Ukraine was not fair, so they stationed thousands of non-biased observers in the Russian-speaking part of the country, and zero in the Ukrainian half. Since the country is 50% Ukrainian (and only 50% Russian) obviously the Ukrainian half should be able to rule with no say-so from the Russian half. Of course. And why should the Ruissians be allowed to speak Russian? There should be only one language - Ukranian, even though the Russia half of the country has been living there, and speaking Russian, for the past millennium (1000 years, for those of you in California.)

US media constantly states that Chechnya is a "breakaway republic" (neither word has anything to do with reality) and should have independence.
What happened when the Russians DID grant independence to the poor misunderstood country, was that their "leaders" immediately exported their terrorism and "freedom fighters" into the next terror-tory of Russia.



What US policy has actually encouraged separatism??? Was it James Baker warning against suicidal nationalism under George I, or George II say nothing policy as Putin rolls back democracy because he saw into Putin's soul???

US gov't has advocated Chechen independance???? Gee when was that...cause I missed it...



The US and Nato bombed Yugoslavia so it is now 6 or 7 little countries. As a result, do we have peace? No, now we have two countryfuls of potential Albanian and Kosovan terrorists financially supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia, thank you Bill Clinton. He thought he was saving them, he was actually postponing them for the next president.

If you actually checked....Yugoslavia as was under the time to Tito had already split into 5 countries by that point. I know some people are different than I but when I see people getting slaughtered I don't give much a thought to what religion they are...and certainly won't excuse it if they are from some "undesireable" religions or ethnic group.



If someone wants Putin to "apologize" for the past "misdeeds" of Russia, well, first they should apologize for their own misdeeds. If such a person or country exist, it will be greatest person/country of all time. But i can't imagine you are successful if you say to yourself and others you are bad and evil.

Really if a country is "man" enough and "big" enough to do that, then everyone else might (probably not) soon follow. But if you demand that everyone else apologize for their own misdeeds, while you stand back and not participate, well, good luck...



Well, Australian has acknowledged past misdeeds to it Aboriginal Population, Canada has done the same and I believe the US Gov't has acknowledged breaking every major Indian treaty...additionally there is remorse for slavery...and an apology from some state governments. Even recently from your "republic of virginia" which is actually the Commonwealth of Virgiania has done it...if you are really from there. Societies change for the better when the acknowledge past misdeeds. Putin IMHO doesn't really give a damn about changing society for the better...that he's ruled in boomtimes has allowed him to shower his friends in money and thrown enough bones to the general public for most people to shut up. Its a real pity because Putin probably could have governed to a large extent as he wanted anyway completely democratically...instead to moved Russia away from rule of law...to arbitrary rule of Putin and henchmen...at some point their will be a revolution (hopefully peaceful) to get Russia back but with all the oil money...you can't be sure

Clean32
03-08-2007, 22:09
I am reminded of my Chinese friend in Indonesia, where the government passed a law making it a criminal offense to display a sign in Chinese language, even on their own storefront. My friend and his ancestor have been there for countless generations, yet the Malays have decided to ban the Chinese culture. Which only gives justification for attacks, robberies, and worse on ethnic Chinese. !

Malays ?? no you meen the Indonesians, difrent countrys, that was back in the late 90s i think

Clean32
03-08-2007, 22:22
Fenrir, I have never been to Estonia, so you know a lot more than i do.

On the other hand, why is it that ethnic Russians have to get visas to leave their own country? .

Just on this point, as I understand it.
I will try to explain it another way.
Alaska was Russian. There are Russian families in Alaska who have been there for generations, well they are now apart of the American melting pot.
So think of it this way, if the Russian descendants and new Russian immigrants to Alaska decided that they didn’t want American citizenship, wanted all the school hospital services that all Americans have access to. refuse to get a US passport. demand there rights as Russians ( because Alaska was Russian once).
So the American government agrees to this, but stated that they must pick up a stamp in there passport when they leave Alaska so that they can come back, IE to separate them from other Russians who do not actually live in Alaska.
Now from these American Russians point of view, why should they Have to get an American passport/ citizenship, because to do so means that in Russian law they have to give up there Russian citizenship.
So these people are between a rock and a hard place. I do feel sorry for them.

As for your comments about The USA and English its getting that way in NZ as well, guess ill have to learn mandarin to go home LOL