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FatAndy
09-11-2010, 13:36
http://top.rbc.ru/society/09/11/2010/495819.shtml - in Russian

Moscow City Commitee of tourism reports that for first 3 quarters of 2010 there were more than 3M of foreign tourists visiting Moscow.
At 2009 for same period - 2.6M.

279 hotels exist in Moscow with 88K places for 1 Oct 2010 (what is not enough of course), with 70% filled during 2009.

But there are some... hmmm... optimistic data - 21 hotel for 5062 places were created at 2009 (98 hotels for whole period of 2000-2009), until the end of this year they plan to get 21 hotel more with 6293 places.

I hope it will help visitors and those expats who will want to invite friends to Moscow for weekends ;)

ReallyGreatConcerts
09-11-2010, 13:55
It's a great story, of course.

The inconsistency in it is that 2009 was the worst year for tourism worldwide due to the Financial Crisis. and that figures for tourists were up to 50% lower than the year before.

Making a comparison with the worst-possible figures isn't the basis for reliable trend-determination ;)

FatAndy
09-11-2010, 14:07
Anyway + is better than -

And I sincerely hope they will build new hotels. Of course, they will not cost 40-60 euro, but 100-120 will look better than traditional 200 :)

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 14:12
That is nice, but I think, that 3 M for Moscow is nothing.

What the most important thing for attraction of tourists is incerasing not the number of hotels, but affordable hotels in Moscow.

It is absolutely unaccepted when you will not able to find a room for less then 250 USD per night.

S.Petersburg can be a good example, Moscow must follow, where the rooms in the centre (a lot of mini-hotels) can cost from 50 USD.

FatAndy
09-11-2010, 14:33
Well, 250 is not cheap, but for center maybe OK. For peripheral parts there is another pic

One of my bosses lived there when all other hotels were full:
http://www.hotel-bitsa.ru/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=88&Itemid=5
Not very close to metro - 20 min by feet, but nice air ;) 3300 rub/night

http://www.katerinahotels.com/ru/moscow/park/rooms/prices/ - 4500 rub/night for weekends
Both hotels are not far from me.

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 14:43
That 's why, Katerina hotel is always overbooked.

But is it enough to stay in Moscow ony for two days?

As for Bitsa, yes, I agree, but it is more exception, than usual for Moscow.

Another problem to my mind is that to organize a trip for a tourist without an agency is quite difficult, as I heard.

Moscow leaves much to be desired still from the point of view development of tourist industry.

May be because of mentality of local dovernment (ex, may be?), that Moscow is a business centre, a trade center, not a tourist city.

TolkoRaz
09-11-2010, 15:39
The number of hotels is increasing. My main client is opening a 5 Star hotel in central Moscow next year and is building the largest of one its brands at Crocus City.

There are also many other developments undergoing construction across The Russian Federation with plenty more in the pipe line :)

More choice is good for both tourists and business travellers.

xSnoofovich
09-11-2010, 16:03
It is absolutely unaccepted when you will not able to find a room for less then 250 USD per night.

.

And before you even book hotels, you have to add in the cost of the visa !

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 16:07
And before you even book hotels, you have to add in the cost of the visa !

Well, frankly speaking, cost of visa does not prevent me from travelling to France or UK or.....

The main spendings in travelling is cost per hotel (good, but affordable) and airtickets, to my mind.

xSnoofovich
09-11-2010, 17:31
Well, frankly speaking, cost of visa does not prevent me from travelling to France or UK or.....



For sure ! because you have to "pay to play" since you probably have a russian passport.

But ! If you are American or European, then this is something that one would have to take into consideration. If i had a family of 5, that would cost me another maybe another $500, or even more.

xSnoofovich
09-11-2010, 17:35
Is this really the most appropriate place for this thread?

This doesn't belong in the "Expat Cafe", since this is a discussion about

A). Current Affairs

or

B) Business

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 18:32
For sure ! because you have to "pay to play" since you probably have a russian passport.

But ! If you are American or European, then this is something that one would have to take into consideration. If i had a family of 5, that would cost me another maybe another $500, or even more.

Yes, to travel with a large family is costy! :)

But we pay this 100 USD per VISA (sometimes less, depending the country) as well.


So hotels and airtickets still are the main ussues in spendings to my mind..

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 18:33
Is this really the most appropriate place for this thread?

This doesn't belong in the "Expat Cafe", since this is a discussion about

A). Current Affairs

or

B) Business

Do you like when everything is in order and has the right place?

xSnoofovich
09-11-2010, 18:42
Yes, to travel with a large family is costy! :)

But we pay this 100 USD per VISA (sometimes less, depending the country) as well.


So hotels and airtickets still are the main ussues in spendings to my mind..

Sure !

That is my point. It costs me nothing to take my family of 5 to Europe. To England. To Japan, etc.

So, if one does not * normally * incur these expenses during their travels, this * does * become a factor when one calculates total costs. just sayin....

martpark
09-11-2010, 18:46
Well, frankly speaking, cost of visa does not prevent me from travelling to France or UK or.....

The main spendings in travelling is cost per hotel (good, but affordable) and airtickets, to my mind.

That doesn't include registratsia, higher prices in Moscow for many things and most importantly, a tourist visa to the US, for example, is good for 2 years. Here you have to apply each time you want to travel and they don't even keep the information you've entered previously.

xSnoofovich
09-11-2010, 18:49
Moscow City Commitee of tourism


I just find it shocking that there * IS * a Moscow City Commitee of Tourism to begin with.

Where could I find their offices?

FatAndy
09-11-2010, 18:53
One of my colleagues from UK also had 2-year Russian visa. And I can't say that London is cheaper than Moscow (tough I lived there only several days). Regarding US - yes, 2 years visa costed me +$100 directly at embassy and most of goods cost cheaper there.


That doesn't include registratsia, higher prices in Moscow for many things and most importantly, a tourist visa to the US, for example, is good for 2 years. Here you have to apply each time you want to travel and they don't even keep the information you've entered previously.

xSnoofovich
09-11-2010, 18:55
One of my colleagues from UK also had 2-year Russian visa. .

Could you describe this two year Russian visa please?

Was it business? Tourist? something else?

This is very interesting !!!!!!!!!!

FatAndy
09-11-2010, 19:01
Shocking? Why?

Yandex knows everything, as usual:

http://www.moscomtour.mos.ru/
http://mosopen.ru/goverment/294
http://www.rosvlast.ru/bd_free.aspx?fid=847288
http://www.moscow-city.ru/regions/ru/moscow_town/index.html


I just find it shocking that there * IS * a Moscow City Commitee of Tourism to begin with.

Where could I find their offices?

martpark
09-11-2010, 19:02
One of my colleagues from UK also had 2-year Russian visa. And I can't say that London is cheaper than Moscow (tough I lived there only several days). Regarding US - yes, 2 years visa costed me +$100 directly at embassy and most of goods cost cheaper there.

There's no such thing as a 2 year visa in the Russian visa agency in London. The lack of information is another problem. The websites just give general info, like the address, but not what you actually need until you are queueing at the agency. Then you begin the hunt for blood tests, health insurance, etc, which may mean missing flights, work, special events, etc.

FatAndy
09-11-2010, 19:04
Never interested deep, as you understand. Usual sticker in his passport, AFAIR yellow or similar color, with hologramm. I don't have contact with him just now but can ask with occassion.


Could you describe this two year Russian visa please?

Was it business? Tourist? something else?

This is very interesting !!!!!!!!!!

xSnoofovich
09-11-2010, 19:04
I just find it shocking. I mean, if I came here on my own, without a tourist group. I would be totally lost.

It just seems that international tourism is not promoted.

Exit question:

When was the last time you were in Spain or France, and there were big billboards advertising Tourism in Russia? Like we have here with Egypt, Turkey, and Cyprus? +others....



Shocking? Why?

Yandex knows everything, as usual:

http://www.moscomtour.mos.ru/
http://mosopen.ru/goverment/294
http://www.rosvlast.ru/bd_free.aspx?fid=847288
http://www.moscow-city.ru/regions/ru/moscow_town/index.html

FatAndy
09-11-2010, 19:08
It was at 2007-2008 AFAIR. May be mistaken but can ask with occassion, again.

I don't rule the visa process, fortunately or unfortunately. Lack of information is bureaucracy heritage, now it's at least better than 20 yrs ago and is improving. We have no obvious blood tests for Schengen visas, UK or US, but health insurance is obvious too.


There's no such thing as a 2 year visa in the Russian visa agency in London. The lack of information is another problem. The websites just give general info, like the address, but not what you actually need until you are queueing at the agency. Then you begin the hunt for blood tests, health insurance, etc, which may mean missing flights, work, special events, etc.

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 19:12
That doesn't include registratsia, higher prices in Moscow for many things and most importantly, a tourist visa to the US, for example, is good for 2 years. Here you have to apply each time you want to travel and they don't even keep the information you've entered previously.


If we speak about tourism, registartsia is made by hotels free of charge.

But I would agree, that if you want to rent a flat for 3-4 days, it will be a headache!

I rented a flat in Paris without any problems (well, with some, but it is not connected with general issues) and did not need any additional paper or other "work".

Moscow is a bit cheaper than London (I could not find a good restauarnt (more or less) cheaper than 60-70 USD per person (I do not mean pubs), in Moscow it is possible to have dinner for 30 USD per person still.

Museums, castles, one day excursions, metro, taxi are extremely expensive in UK (well there are some free of charge and that is good as well), in Moscow they are cheaper (even taxi :) ).

But 100-120 USD in a good hotel is not a luck, there are plenty of them!

In general, Moscow is not convinient and very expensive for usual tourists indeed and that must be changed:

1. tourists only in groups or via travel agencies;
2. quite few affrodable hotels, only expensive options in the majority of cases, lack of hotels;
3 no help (tourist points or desks) for single tourists (if they are);
4. registartion checking, visa checking by police.
5. higher prices for tourists in museums than for russians

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 19:16
I just find it shocking. I mean, if I came here on my own, without a tourist group. I would be totally lost.

It just seems that international tourism is not promoted.

Exit question:

When was the last time you were in Spain or France, and there were big billboards advertising Tourism in Russia? Like we have here with Egypt, Turkey, and Cyprus? +others....

Good question!

The answer is that russian authorities are not interested in it, as I see.

FatAndy
09-11-2010, 19:18
Lost... aha... maybe. Up to you. But why shock?


I just find it shocking. I mean, if I came here on my own, without a tourist group. I would be totally lost.



Yes, international tourism into Russia is not promoted yet:
1) We have no good infrastructure for tourism yet, and it's not good IMHO.
2) Tourism ("kinetically" and potentially) has very small share in state income, in contrary with countries you mentioned (BTW all of them are Mediterranean, and at the same time 70% of our territory is permafrost).


It just seems that international tourism is not promoted. When was the last time you were in Spain or France, and there were big billboards advertising Tourism in Russia? Like we have here with Egypt, Turkey, and Cyprus? +others....

martpark
09-11-2010, 19:46
Lost... aha... maybe. Up to you. But why shock?





Yes, international tourism into Russia is not promoted yet:
1) We have no good infrastructure for tourism yet, and it's not good IMHO.
2) Tourism ("kinetically" and potentially) has very small share in state income, in contrary with countries you mentioned (BTW all of them are Mediterranean, and at the same time 70% of our territory is permafrost).
Czech Rep., Slovakia, Poland and the former Yugoslavia have a lot of tourism. This is not being developed by the Rus govt. and Russia has a lot more cultural intrigue to outsiders but I think the govt is more worried about 'security' than improving the economy through tourism.

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 19:59
Czech Rep., Slovakia, Poland and the former Yugoslavia have a lot of tourism. This is not being developed by the Rus govt. and Russia has a lot more cultural intrigue to outsiders but I think the govt is more worried about 'security' than improving the economy through tourism.

Even not about security (what do you mean?)!

The % of GDP from tourism in Russia is less then 1%, as I can guess.

So they just are not interested.

ROI will be very low, if to start developing (investing a lot and at once) on national level.

So the government does not care about it at all.

It is "easier" to build a new pipeline via Baltic sea.

If Tourism industry is developing, it is doing because local governments and business.

It is OK in S.Petersburg, it leaves much to be desired in Moscow ("Moscow is for business" is a slogan as I see) and quite good (unexpectedly) IN Golden Ring.

It is strange in Baikal (more oriented to russians), it is strange (high prices and there is no decreasing still) in Sochi (400 USD per night in Lazurnaya which 3* hotel).

aND SO ON!

martpark
09-11-2010, 20:26
Even not about security (what do you mean?)!

The % of GDP from tourism in Russia is less then 1%, as I can guess.

So they just are not interested.

ROI will be very low, if to start developing (investing a lot and at once) on national level.

So the government does not care about it at all.

It is "easier" to build a new pipeline via Baltic sea.

If Tourism industry is developing, it is doing because local governments and business.

It is OK in S.Petersburg, it leaves much to be desired in Moscow ("Moscow is for business" is a slogan as I see) and quite good (unexpectedly) IN Golden Ring.

It is strange in Baikal (more oriented to russians), it is strange (high prices and there is no decreasing still) in Sochi (400 USD per night in Lazurnaya which 3* hotel).

aND SO ON!

Worried about the security of the state against spies and potential 'terrorists'. With more open borders they believe the risk goes up.

Tourism in Moscow has huge potential as it has high cultural value but the visa process and lack of information turns people off.

ReallyGreatConcerts
09-11-2010, 21:21
I just find it shocking. I mean, if I came here on my own, without a tourist group. I would be totally lost.

It just seems that international tourism is not promoted.

Exit question:

When was the last time you were in Spain or France, and there were big billboards advertising Tourism in Russia? Like we have here with Egypt, Turkey, and Cyprus? +others....

I agree that Russia does zilch to promote tourism - although I am not sure that posters are the best value-for-budget route to take.

The asinine visa regime is the most obvious barrier to tourism. And a model for an alternative is on show just 300+ miles south of Moscow. Ukraine allows tourists to come visa-free for up to a month. Why can't Russia do that? (I mean, aside from control-freak FSB whackjobs who have too much influence in Russia anyhow). Of course, Russia will say "well first the EU and USA & Canada & New Zealand must drop their tourist visa requirement for us", but this axe-grinding pettiness has been going on since 1917 and needs to stop.

There's a reason why budget airlines like Wizz & Easyjet fly to former-USSR destinations like Riga, Tallinn and Kiev - but not to Russia. The answer is the visa, which they see as an absurd millstone around their business that would render routes to Moscow or St P unattractive.

ReallyGreatConcerts
09-11-2010, 21:23
but I think the govt is more worried about 'security' than improving the economy through tourism.

And they love a good old sulk. Don't forget that.

There's nothing like deep-seated bitter envy to keep 'em going :((

Nobbynumbnuts
09-11-2010, 21:32
Worried about the security of the state against spies and potential 'terrorists'. With more open borders they believe the risk goes up.

Tourism in Moscow has huge potential as it has high cultural value but the visa process and lack of information turns people off.

Exactly and Moscow sits on the door step of one of the richest and most densely populated areas on earth. Europe.
Moscow has so much to offer and how many of those people have ever visited the city?
Demand would skyrocket with a little coordinated effort from the government. Cancel visa requirement for short stays for 'Westerners', invest in a little tourist information around the city and a campaign to attract tourists.
The private sector would follow up and build the hotels required.

Ain't gonna happen though because they are paranoid that were all spys. :rolleyes:

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 21:37
I agree that Russia does zilch to promote tourism - although I am not sure that posters are the best value-for-budget route to take.

The asinine visa regime is the most obvious barrier to tourism. And a model for an alternative is on show just 300+ miles south of Moscow. Ukraine allows tourists to come visa-free for up to a month. Why can't Russia do that? (I mean, aside from control-freak FSB whackjobs who have too much influence in Russia anyhow). Of course, Russia will say "well first the EU and USA & Canada & New Zealand must drop their tourist visa requirement for us", but this axe-grinding pettiness has been going on since 1917 and needs to stop.

There's a reason why budget airlines like Wizz & Easyjet fly to former-USSR destinations like Riga, Tallinn and Kiev - but not to Russia. The answer is the visa, which they see as an absurd millstone around their business that would render routes to Moscow or St P unattractive.

Russia likes making adequate actions.

Well, Italy and Spain give a year shengen visa to russian tourists automatically now.

Why not to do to with tourists, who come to Russia (at least to Italians and Spanish)!

It will give a chance to a tourist to visit not only Moscow or S.Petersburg, but next time Baikal, Solovky, Kamchatka or closer, Volga region, Astrakhan, Dombai (in winter), even THE Shochi resort.

THey ar worth seing at least once in a life.

Nobbynumbnuts
09-11-2010, 21:52
Russia likes making adequate actions.

Well, Italy and Spain give a year shengen visa to russian tourists automatically now.

Why not to do to with tourists, who come to Russia (at least to Italians and Spanish)!

It will give a chance to a tourist to visit not only Moscow or S.Petersburg, but next time Baikal, Solovky, Kamchatka or closer, Volga region, Astrakhan, Dombai (in winter), even THE Shochi resort.

THey ar worth seing at least once in a life.

Just drop the bloody visa regime for selected (wealthy nations) Thailand for example does this regardless of other countries requirement for Thais.
Travel is a great way to bring down barriers and correct people's erroneous perceptions about a place. Like Russia is only cold, dangerous, long queues and nothing in the shops! ;)

TolkoRaz
09-11-2010, 22:06
Like Russia is only cold, dangerous, long queues and nothing in the shops! ;)

Nobby, You forgot to mention the hungry bears roaming the streets! :D

tvadim133
09-11-2010, 22:09
Nobby, You forgot to mention the hungry bears roaming the streets! :D

Why hungry, just drunk and merry!

Nobbynumbnuts
09-11-2010, 22:43
Nobby, You forgot to mention the hungry bears roaming the streets! :D

PMSL ;)

xSnoofovich
09-11-2010, 23:52
5. higher prices for tourists in museums than for russians

I don't disagree with higher prices for tourists. I mean it isn't like we are talking a * WHOLE * lot of money.

xSnoofovich
09-11-2010, 23:56
and at the same time 70% of our territory is permafrost).

What? You are talking about Russia???????????????

which would mean 30% isn't???????????????

xSnoofovich
10-11-2010, 00:01
you are right. and right. and right again !


Even not about security (what do you mean?)!

The % of GDP from tourism in Russia is less then 1%, as I can guess.

So they just are not interested.

ROI will be very low, if to start developing (investing a lot and at once) on national level.

So the government does not care about it at all.

It is "easier" to build a new pipeline via Baltic sea.

If Tourism industry is developing, it is doing because local governments and business.

It is OK in S.Petersburg, it leaves much to be desired in Moscow ("Moscow is for business" is a slogan as I see) and quite good (unexpectedly) IN Golden Ring.

xSnoofovich
10-11-2010, 00:03
Ain't gonna happen though because they are paranoid that were all spys. :rolleyes:

That isn't exactly far-fetched !

TolkoRaz
10-11-2010, 00:14
:suspect:

:watching::watching:

xSnoofovich
10-11-2010, 00:17
:watching::watching:
muhahahahahha

FatAndy
10-11-2010, 08:56
Yes.
Yes.


What? You are talking about Russia???????????????

which would mean 30% isn't???????????????

FatAndy
10-11-2010, 09:10
1) It is heritage of "cold war" still existing, and
2) we have enough "internal" terrorists to allow freely "imported" ones.

Nevertheless I hope that policy for loyal tourists will be improved, and infrastructure as well.


Worried about the security of the state against spies and potential 'terrorists'. With more open borders they believe the risk goes up.

Tourism in Moscow has huge potential as it has high cultural value but the visa process and lack of information turns people off.

Rhubard Geoff
10-11-2010, 10:32
Well, frankly speaking, cost of visa does not prevent me from travelling to France or UK or.....

The main spendings in travelling is cost per hotel (good, but affordable) and airtickets, to my mind.

It's not so much the cost but the hassle and if anyone from the EU or US wants a taste of the former USSR they can fly into Kiev, visa/registration free.

TolkoRaz
10-11-2010, 10:45
It's not so much the cost but the hassle and if anyone from the EU or US wants a taste of the former USSR they can fly into Kiev, visa/registration free.

And, Kiev is cheaper, easier to get around and, of course, Kreshatik's ladies are far more beautiful! :gorgeous:

Rhubard Geoff
10-11-2010, 15:35
And, Kiev is cheaper, easier to get around and, of course, Kreshatik's ladies are far more beautiful! :gorgeous:

I wouldn't say it's easier to get around as it doesn't have as good a metro system as Moscow.

No dispute in the other points though.

FatAndy
10-11-2010, 16:16
Well, 3 lines (60 km), 46 stations, 1.5M passengers/day... Not so bad. And info/ad in wagons is better than in Moscow (they have PIDs)


I wouldn't say it's easier to get around as it doesn't have as good a metro system as Moscow.

No dispute in the other points though.

TolkoRaz
10-11-2010, 16:35
Well, 3 lines (60 km), 46 stations, 1.5M passengers/day... Not so bad. And info/ad in wagons is better than in Moscow (they have PIDs)

Perimeter Intruder Detection Systems? :confused: ;)

FatAndy
10-11-2010, 17:25
A kind of... :D

Public Information Displays. They had CRT (tube) ones hanging down from wagon ceilings that time (I was there last time at 2008).


Perimeter Intruder Detection Systems? :confused: ;)