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Random
19-06-2005, 22:07
So F1 once again turns into a farce - glad I didn't shell out $ to go and watch it ...

Its a disgrace etc etc rant rant ....

Emk
19-06-2005, 22:26
Really disgrace for Ferrari! :cussing: Wonder what they were thinking when deciding to turn down Michelin suggestions. I will be hard to respect the team now. I think this will be a hard blow to their reputation and Ferrari sales will go down now on the American market. It's such disrespect to spectators! Just curious to see Schumacher and Barichello faces when they are on popodium. :mad:

Random
19-06-2005, 22:39
Dont think it will affect sales of Ferrari per se ...but agree as a fan base they have just turned off a lot of fans

Emk
19-06-2005, 22:49
May be not at once, but Ferrari is a status car and what an advertisement they are doing for their cars now! SHAME!!!
I wonder if all the cars can finish the race. People keep on throwing bottles, who knows what might happen.

Random
19-06-2005, 23:11
Jesus !! The two Ferraris have banged into each other ! Can this get any worse ????

Olga Ten
19-06-2005, 23:19
i'm not sure that I'm in chagre of full details of this situation.
i suppose this disregard situation makes a lot of rumors now about what team is the best. Ferrari used to be "the top" at the last few years - that's why the owner of it didn't let to build the wall (I didn't know how it will be in english) - it's just the reason to revenge to Ferrari's failure this year.
Most depends not only of Ferrati but on FIA new rules.

Broken Arrow
20-06-2005, 00:20
Now come on. this race was meant to be in this track, with out the CHICANE the michelin teams needed. If the tyres can't last for more than 10-15 races that is the problem of michelin and bridgestone teams are not responsible for that any way. The Ferrari followed the rule they won the race and we cannot take the credit away from them now can we?

Now if you think that ferrari should have admitted to race with the chicane bulit, that is a mistake. Imagine if ferrari had a engine that could have last only for 20 laps or so, do you think these michelin teams would have agreed to build a chicane?I mean its so unlikely.

Rules are rules and its for every one. A car is considered to be good if they are good in all departments including the tyre . Tyre is a fctor which affects most of the race finishes. So obviously the bridgestone teams had a better tyre and so better tyre and they won the race. What's there to disgrace FIA or ferrari ?

Its not like michelin doesn't know this track. If you see the previous races michelin had problems with wear and tear. This time it went out of their control. That's it. So simple. Michelin is filled with SH*T and so all the teams who used michelin get the result.

Emk
20-06-2005, 00:31
Most depends not only of Ferrati but on FIA new rules.
But Jordan and Minardi did actually support the idea of inserting the chicane ahead of the turn 13. Ferrari was the only team to object. Had they supported Michelin teams demand , and with all three other teams supporting it too, FIA would have found it hard to insist on their position.
There seems to be a regulation that at least 12 cars should take start. Otherwise the GP results may be annulated. Anybody knows if it's really so :rolleyes:

Emk
20-06-2005, 00:43
Now come on. this race was meant to be in this track, with out the CHICANE the michelin teams needed. If the tyres can't last for more than 10-15 races that is the problem of michelin and bridgestone teams are not responsible for that any way. The Ferrari followed the rule they won the race and we cannot take the credit away from them now can we?

Now if you think that ferrari should have admitted to race with the chicane bulit, that is a mistake. Imagine if ferrari had a engine that could have last only for 20 laps or so, do you think these michelin teams would have agreed to build a chicane?I mean its so unlikely.

Rules are rules and its for every one. A car is considered to be good if they are good in all departments including the tyre . Tyre is a fctor which affects most of the race finishes. So obviously the bridgestone teams had a better tyre and so better tyre and they won the race. What's there to disgrace FIA or ferrari ?

Its not like michelin doesn't know this track. If you see the previous races michelin had problems with wear and tear. This time it went out of their control. That's it. So simple. Michelin is filled with SH*T and so all the teams who used michelin get the result.

If you consider only rules, yes, they were right. I doubt anyone would call their attitude sporting, though. It was not the matter of one team having some problems. Imagine there would have been serious crashes?
Triumphant victory it was, for sure. I guess those people who came to see the race are impressed by the Ferrari's first victory of the season. :vomit:

Olga Ten
20-06-2005, 00:51
I didn't see the end of this farce show race but as I saw the results in website that the "show" goes on because on the 52-nd lap Michael Schumacher went from the box when Barichello should wait for him on the "grass":)))

I really don't care about the results but it was very funny. History doesn't forget this:)

Emk
20-06-2005, 00:52
History doesn't forget this:)
This is for sure :D

Broken Arrow
20-06-2005, 00:59
But Jordan and Minardi did actually support the idea of inserting the chicane ahead of the turn 13. Ferrari was the only team to object. Had they supported Michelin teams demand , and with all three other teams supporting it too, FIA would have found it hard to insist on their position.
There seems to be a regulation that at least 12 cars should take start. Otherwise the GP results may be annulated. Anybody knows if it's really so :rolleyes:


As far as my memory goes that was the rule before 1998. They amended it Like two teams minimum in a race. Of course Ferrari objected and rightly so. Guess what when the one tyre rule was introduced. Ferrari did object that and no body else would support them. So now its their turn. Come on now every one wants to win. If the other two teams didn't race the race wouldn't be there . But they did race atlast. So it doesnt really mater if the other two teams were agreed to Build the chicane.

Broken Arrow
20-06-2005, 01:07
I didn't see the end of this farce show race but as I saw the results in website that the "show" goes on because on the 52-nd lap Michael Schumacher went from the box when Barichello should wait for him on the "grass":)))

I really don't care about the results but it was very funny. History doesn't forget this:)

Olga. Barrichello didn't wait for michael, but it was really a close one. Mike actually braked for rubens to go in front, after trying to get in front, but it was Rubens' mistake that he went out of the track. I saw the race. But it was very close. They actually might had a contact if Mike didn't brake. And I dont think they both also enjoyed the race coz they do want to race with every one else. But again its not their fault. From outside it looks like that. May be because I'm a ferrari fan I feel this way. But the this is the truth.

koba65
20-06-2005, 01:13
The race is a farce because of Michelin, NOT Ferrari - they couldn't provide a product safe enough for their racers and then wanted FIA to change the race to suit them. They were happy with the one tire (tyre for you Brits!) rule when it worked against Ferrari, now that it's tripped them up they're sweating bullets, quiting races, etc. . They p*ssed on the fans and in a country that would have a good $$$$$ market for them if they could attract fans - this won't. However, I do think this was bound to happen, and it was probably wiser to do it in the States rather than in Europe where a riot would have ensued after such a display. Pathetic.

Broken Arrow
20-06-2005, 01:19
However, I do think this was bound to happen, and it was probably wiser to do it in the States rather than in Europe where a riot would have ensued after such a display. Pathetic.


Hehe

I actually thought the US fans were immature to throw bottles and things on the track. I thought in europe it would have not been that way. May be I'm wrong. A riot for F1 race............ The worst possible thing that can happen.

koba65
20-06-2005, 01:44
Hehe

I actually thought the US fans were immature to throw bottles and things on the track. I thought in europe it would have not been that way. May be I'm wrong. A riot for F1 race............ The worst possible thing that can happen.

You must've forgotten the reaction from a couple of years ago when Barrichello pulled over and let Schumacher win a race. Near riotious then, I can only imagine the crowd's reaction, let's say in Italy, if that many cars refused to race - including a pole-sitting Italian...

Throwing stuff was stupid, but after paying 300$ for tickets, etc., I can see the frustation. Especially since Michelin and the teams decided such actions prior to the race. Had they pulled out on Saturday FIA would have to refund the tickets, wouldn't they?? ;-)

Broken Arrow
20-06-2005, 02:28
You must've forgotten the reaction from a couple of years ago when Barrichello pulled over and let Schumacher win a race. Near riotious then, I can only imagine the crowd's reaction, let's say in Italy, if that many cars refused to race - including a pole-sitting Italian...

Throwing stuff was stupid, but after paying 300$ for tickets, etc., I can see the frustation. Especially since Michelin and the teams decided such actions prior to the race. Had they pulled out on Saturday FIA would have to refund the tickets, wouldn't they?? ;-)



That is a valid point. Frustration is too high but to throw bottles on a F! car which is going at a speed of 300kmph is completely unacceptable as it could endanger the life of the drivers. The drivers are innocent in this matter as its a big mistake from Michelin and neither the teams nor the drivers had eny thing to do with that. Not pulling out on saturday was also Michelins mistake as they are completely aware of the rules.





“Michelin is sorry that the tyres it ran in free practice and qualifying were not suitable for use in racing conditions this weekend, but driver safety is always a priority. Michelin will never change its stance on this principle, whether we are talking about tyres for competition or any other purpose."

“It is regrettable that our pre-race suggestions, agreed in conjunction with our partner teams, were not adopted. Had our ideas been followed, we could have guaranteed driver safety, the participation of our teams and added interest for the public."




Guess what is the latest news...... Michelin is apologising to every one for their incompetable tyres . Just another act to conserve their image and gain some sympathy going around. (F*cking losers)

Broken Arrow
20-06-2005, 02:52
Michelins Suggestion Were

1) To change the tyres - which is not allowed in the FIA rules and they knew that

2) To construct the chicane - Which is not allowed in the rules too and should not be imposed as it would give advantage to the michelin teams.

3) To run a race with out points for the michelin teams - That is only for their advertisement and hardly there is any sportsmanship or some SH*T like that. They won't run ina race with out getting any points. And even they did run the points would have been the same as today. As only 6 drivers will get points. So there is no point in doing so.



If they really wanted to show thir sportsmanships with out concerniong about the points, they could have run slow in that corner, as suggested by FIA. FIA replied "If you have a problem learn cope with it. Don't try to change the rules for you" and rightly so. Now this proves, that they were not having any sportsman spirit to run in the race with out getting points. They Recommended the third option to the FIA and made it public, just to get some good image and sympathy. :vomit:

koba65
20-06-2005, 03:51
If they really wanted to show thir sportsmanships with out concerniong about the points, they could have run slow in that corner, as suggested by FIA. FIA replied "If you have a problem learn cope with it. Don't try to change the rules for you" and rightly so. Now this proves, that they were not having any sportsman spirit to run in the race with out getting points. They Recommended the third option to the FIA and made it public, just to get some good image and sympathy. :vomit:

It'll be interesting to see what Bernie does about this. He made a vieled comment about the future and Michelin (and the US Grand Prix - it'll be hard to attract the fans next year).

Pobman
20-06-2005, 08:26
I think if Ralph had been badly injured, or even killed, then nobody would have given a second thought to changing the track/tyres or anything....

In the end it was just another showdown between FIA and F1 teams. Ferrari may as well have backed the chicane as the FIA were not going to let it go ahead... but now half the world will think it did not go ahead because of Ferrari. A bad move on their side.

Would have been great if the two ferraris actually hit each other... the other teams would not have stopped laughing for months.

Pobman
20-06-2005, 08:27
It'll be interesting to see what Bernie does about this. He made a vieled comment about the future and Michelin (and the US Grand Prix - it'll be hard to attract the fans next year).

Well the FIA want to go to only 1 tyre manufacturer. . . . I wonder which one they will pick now ... ... ...

Random
20-06-2005, 09:46
I think if Ralph had been badly injured, or even killed, then nobody would have given a second thought to changing the track/tyres or anything....


Thats the point - race goes ahead - an F1 driver dies due to the tyre - in America - you see the lawyers linning up for that case !!

Sporting Spirit should have prevailed not this bloody minded approach from Ferrari !

The end is nigh for F1 - enjoy while you can !!

Pobman
20-06-2005, 10:08
I agree if the michelins could not go full speed around that corner... then they should run it at a speed they can cope with ...

If your engine cant last the full race at 100% throttle then you would cut your speed a bit... so if you tyres cant cope then why not do the same . . .

Broken Arrow
20-06-2005, 10:40
That is the REAL Question pobman. They are selfish cowards and they pretty well know they cannot run slow as ferrari, Jordon and even minardi will overtake them.They dont want that. Now see every thing michelin teams did were just for their own sake, and so did Ferrari and I find no reason what so ever, to blame ferrari, if you are not blaming the michelin teams to take part and drive slow. To say that michelin teams have dont that for driver safety is bit too naive I feel.

Pobman
20-06-2005, 11:00
The FIA response


http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2005/June/190605-02.html

Gave them lots of options...
1. they could have brought a second set of different tyres
2. they could instruct the michelin drivers what maximum speed to go around that corner would be
3. bring the cars in for new tyres ever X laps on the grounds of safety as per the rules.

All of which would have meant michelin cars being lapped and thrashed by the bridgestones ... so not taken.

Braders
20-06-2005, 11:08
1. they could have brought a second set of different tyres


They hastily had some flown overnight to the GP and apparently they were unsuitable as well.



Michelin had tried to solve their huge embarrassment by flying in new tyres from their headquarters in Clermont Ferrand overnight.
But attempts to rescue the situation came to nothing when the newly-arrived rubber turned out to be no better equipped to deal with the track.

Olga Ten
20-06-2005, 11:10
Olga. Barrichello didn't wait for michael, but it was really a close one. Mike actually braked for rubens to go in front, after trying to get in front, but it was Rubens' mistake that he went out of the track. I saw the race. But it was very close. They actually might had a contact if Mike didn't brake. And I dont think they both also enjoyed the race coz they do want to race with every one else. But again its not their fault. From outside it looks like that. May be because I'm a ferrari fan I feel this way. But the this is the truth.

I'm also the ferarri fun but I suppose Jean Todd in this case was based on the opinion: "Nobody hepls us, why we should help others?". it's the sport, I know.
I have seen so many changes with the F1 rules that I don't know what the last ones:)
Anyway the situation is only on hands for ferarri: Mike won, Rubens won, Ferarri went to the top and placed on the 3-rd position:)

Olga aka Tonka

Olga Ten
20-06-2005, 11:11
I had seen this race till about 11th lap, that I turned off my TV.
I would like to see the good win of Michael Schumaher but not like this as he told himself.

Broken Arrow
20-06-2005, 11:15
Thats what I'm trying to say.If some one want to blame Ferrari, Do it. But keep in mind the sportsmanship of the Michelin runners. If the majority of the teams do some thing wrong that doesnt justify a thing. Does it? Remember the monza when some teams dishonoured the yellow flag, which was implemented after the death of the marshall. The same teams or on the other side now, playing for sympathy. I just don't get why Ferrari and FIA is getting blamed here where the Michelin teams should be.

Fans knew that there was some thing wrong and they could have got their ticket money back if at all the Michelin teams informed every one that they arev not going to run . They waited until he parade lap and after that they withdrew from the race. The rules now went against them as it had went against Brindgestone teams when thay introduced the one tyre rule. They didn't ask for all the teams to change the rules. Even if they would have, None of the Michelin teams would have supported it. But now its their turn. They had better tyres and so better cars.

Mike himself said that they would like to win with the other teams. they with drew and its not his problem.Its so simple.

If they would have gone slow into the 13th corner they would have been lapped by even the so called "not so strong teams" like jordon and minardi and they didnt want that. Sporting attitude of Ferrari is much better than the attitude of Michelin teams. About the chicane. Did you ever see the practice session? Many cars spin and many cars over steer understeer. With out testing and practice in a circuit is dangerous too. Putting in a chicane will mean its a new track, so its dangerous as well. Every one wanted to see the Renaults and Mclarens winning and that didn't happen so they are swearing bullets.

Broken Arrow
20-06-2005, 11:40
They hastily had some flown overnight to the GP and apparently they were unsuitable as well.


Any way Braders they are not going tom lose the market as they have got some sympathy waves going aroud. Innocent people think they are innocent. They did not have a competable tyre and tehy are responsible for that. No body else can be held responsible of this.
They could have agreed to the FIA's recommendations and that would have spoiled their market for bringing a poor tyre. But they didn't race because they wanted the sympathy wave.

They knew the rules and the track as well. they didnot bring the suitable tyres. Its their problem. rant rant rant.........................

saurabh
20-06-2005, 14:35
I am in complete agreement with Broken Arrow.
Since last 2-3 years the F1 rules have been changing constantly due to continued pressure from other teams about ferrari's superiority...
So the rules are changed time and again to make them more "competitive" and "anti-ferrari" at the same time!!!
and now the teams won't owe up to their incompetence but simply push the blame onto ferrari!!!!
and anyways,putting up a chicane only would have given help to michelin teams,so obviously ferrari didn't support the idea.

Emk
20-06-2005, 20:51
It certainly was Michelin’s fault that they didn’t provide their teams with proper reliable tyres for the race. Nobody denies that, as well as Michelin responsibility and necessity to put sanctions on them for having failed to provide reliable package. Ferraris are not responsible for other teams faults.
However, being a strong team and a winner, Ferrari could have prevented this absurd comedy. Had they been as competitive as they were last year, I think, their decision would have been different. Now they fail to win races with all their competitors taking start, so they use every chance of scoring points, no matter how the goal is achieved. In my opinion it's quite the same as if there were two boxers, one of whom would fall ill. In the case the first boxer can either suggest to postpone the fight, or beat his ill competitor and gain the easy victory.
I don't know.... Ferrari has always been one of my favourite teams. But this is too much. The race proved they only care for points. Neither for sport, nor for F1 fans. I don't blame them, it's just far beyond what I expected from the team like this. They used to be great, but they have lost the spirit of true fighters. They don't care for fair victories, they just care for points. It's is certainly their right and blah, blah, blah.. but :mad:
Just my opinion of course.

equalizer
20-06-2005, 20:58
Any way Braders they are not going tom lose the market as they have got some sympathy waves going around. Innocent people think they are innocent. They did not have a computable tyre and they are responsible for that. No body else can be held responsible of this.
They could have agreed to the FIA's recommendations and that would have spoiled their market for bringing a poor tyre. But they didn't race because they wanted the sympathy wave.

They knew the rules and the track as well. they did not bring the suitable tyres. Its their problem. rant rant rant.........................
i blame Micheline ,my jeeps tyres all split in a one month period ,looked like a major design fault ,did i get a refund no chance

Broken Arrow
21-06-2005, 00:08
If you consider only rules, yes, they were right. I doubt anyone would call their attitude sporting, though. It was not the matter of one team having some problems. Imagine there would have been serious crashes?
Triumphant victory it was, for sure. I guess those people who came to see the race are impressed by the Ferrari's first victory of the season. :vomit:

http://www.formula1.com/race/news/3209/740.html

If there is any one who still thnk that its ferrari who made indiano polis race a farce, i'd like to suggest those go take a look here.

koba65
21-06-2005, 00:47
Good year for the French, eh? First they cock up the EU Constitution and now destroy F1's future in the largest potential market.... (Apologies to Kak, if you're lurking).

Mrs. Reboni
21-06-2005, 17:12
Now come on. this race was meant to be in this track, with out the CHICANE the michelin teams needed. If the tyres can't last for more than 10-15 races that is the problem of michelin and bridgestone teams are not responsible for that any way. The Ferrari followed the rule they won the race and we cannot take the credit away from them now can we?

Now if you think that ferrari should have admitted to race with the chicane bulit, that is a mistake. Imagine if ferrari had a engine that could have last only for 20 laps or so, do you think these michelin teams would have agreed to build a chicane?I mean its so unlikely.

Rules are rules and its for every one. A car is considered to be good if they are good in all departments including the tyre . Tyre is a fctor which affects most of the race finishes. So obviously the bridgestone teams had a better tyre and so better tyre and they won the race. What's there to disgrace FIA or ferrari ?

Its not like michelin doesn't know this track. If you see the previous races michelin had problems with wear and tear. This time it went out of their control. That's it. So simple. Michelin is filled with SH*T and so all the teams who used michelin get the result.



Well said Broken Arrow. It's so easy to beat a team when they are down. Michelin made the mistake of not providing the right mixture for the tires. Ferrari did what it should have done, and raced. God know they need the points! As for the spectators, yes I feel sorry that they had to dish out $$ to watch a terrible race, but Shumi and everyone else I might add (with the exception of the Jordans) were visibly upset; but those morons that threw water bottles on the track should be arrested. Lets not forget how easily pilots (and watchers) get killed in races like these. I think it's disgraceful!

I hope FIA will adopt new policies to counteract problems such as these. If FIA hadn't of made the new rules, there would have been a nice race to watch. But hey, c'e la vie.....and rules are rules.

Good day to you all.....

Broken Arrow
21-06-2005, 18:13
Thats what i'm saying here mrs.Reboni. no bigmouths here opened to comment when the rules made against the ferrari domination. When they wanted to make Michelin a single tyre supplier for all the teams no one said a thing. But now when the rules went in favour of Ferrari every one is ready for the swearing. For making the race a farce only michein is responsibe and no one else. If you are blaming Ferrari for running. You have to blame Other teams also. They wanted to win which cannot happen with the suggestions made by FIA and the tyres they had. So they didnt race. no one knew for sure that those teams will with draw from the race until the end of the warm up lap. Building a chicane means changing a highspeed track to a low speed one which will ofcourse handicap Ferrari who obvoiosly used a harder tyre. So they did the right thing. I pity the fans though but Ferrari is not responsible for that.