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jchidg1
13-06-2005, 12:49
Has anybody ever encountered the ex serviceman in a wheelchair who begs on the green line? He is missing an arm, a leg and has horrific scarring on his back. He also seems to have a lump out of his head missing. As a "soft, Westerner" as my other half refers to me, my initial reaction was to burst into tears as this is not a sight you would see anywhere in London. I was told not to give money as he may be working "for others." Interpret that how you will, but it doesn't take Einstein to work that one out!
I was just interested to see whether others had encountered him and what was their intial reaction. Do you become hardened to such sights after a while?

Kingwillhe
13-06-2005, 13:11
I've seen him and others, although he does stand out.

I have given him money in the past but I don't anymore, hardened I guess. There is too much to process in the course of a normal day and I usually save it for when I get home to a drink! Or just utilize my blind spot.

I suspect there is some kickback to militzia for the right to beg but I don't know his details. I know for a fact that the young troops in active service you sometimes see begging are sent out by their commanders (f***ing shameful, and in uniform!).

Aleydis
13-06-2005, 14:04
The first time I've seen this man I was about to burst out crying myself. Among the many beggars in the metro his wounds are just the most horrible thing I have seen. I just imagine what he suffered. I just give money. Maybe he has a family to support.

Lled
13-06-2005, 14:30
Seen him too, absolutely horrific and each time it astonishes and saddens me. I'd like to know more about these cases, speak with a Russian in the know, a social worker, or military guy.

The other one that makes me feel guilty for being alive is the chap with neither legs nor a wheelchair. Propels himself along on a plank of wood with castor wheels.

jchidg1
13-06-2005, 14:51
I was thinking, why is it that you see an ex serviceman with such terrible injuries on obvious display begging on the tube in Moscow, but not in London? Is he allowing himself to be exploited by others because he has no other option and in doing so relinquishes any dignity he may have had left? Does he not have any choice? I am absolutely sure that we have our fair share of servicemen/women who have been discharged due to serious injury. I would hope that they are looked after and provided for by the state. ( I know that the UK is in no position to be complacent as a significant number of our urban homeless are ex service personnel.)
I know the economies and infrastructures of the former republics are not in any great shape, but for a nation that appears to place great importance in recognising its war dead, both civilian and military, why does this happen? Is life just a bit cheaper in Russia?

jchidg1
13-06-2005, 14:53
Come to think of it, has anybody ever spoken to him?

DJ Biscuit
13-06-2005, 14:54
Is life just a bit cheaper in Russia?

Is that a rhetorical question?

Kingwillhe
13-06-2005, 14:57
I've learned that things may not always be as they appear.

Talking to the guy might clear things up regarding his particular situation.

jchidg1
13-06-2005, 15:00
Well, sort out...I'm just musing really. Having travelled through Central Asia, China and South East Asia I've been confronted with some fairly unpleasant sites - life certainly seems cheaper in China - but I've always preceived Russia as being very European with an intent to at least attempt to look after the more needy in society.

Ok, you can stop spluttering with incredulity into your coffees at my naivety now!

jchidg1
13-06-2005, 15:01
I've learned that things may not always be as they appear.

Talking to the guy might clear things up regarding his particular situation.

Quite - there's always more to something than meets the eye in Moscow!!

DJ Biscuit
13-06-2005, 15:59
- but I've always preceived Russia as being very European with an intent to at least attempt to look after the more needy in society.

Ok, you can stop spluttering with incredulity into your coffees at my naivety now!

You nearly killed me. One more death here would go unnoticed though, especially some old sad expat male tart.

I think it depends what kind of life you live here. I am aware of some expats that don't really see what's going down and some whose mates are Russians, ordinary people, live here a while and see a differnt side of things. You'll have more and more surprises as time goes on.

jchidg1
13-06-2005, 16:07
You nearly killed me. One more death here would go unnoticed though, especially some old sad expat male tart.

I think it depends what kind of life you live here. I am aware of some expats that don't really see what's going down and some whose mates are Russians, ordinary people, live here a while and see a differnt side of things. You'll have more and more surprises as time goes on.


That's for sure...it's always an eye opener over there....I remember reading the Exile or whatever it is (Dodgy Timeout Equiv.) with my mouth hanging open!!!

DJ Biscuit
13-06-2005, 16:17
Shall we chat about the three murders in my apartment block since December? The dead body in the road outside? The fighting on the metro especially on holidays? Best one was the guy having his arm twisted so much round the poll that it made the most wonderfull cracking noise! What about the people renting children, giving them sleeping draughts and begging?
The friend of mine who was raped and murdered because she went to the wrong people for drugs?

I could go on but you get the picture.

However it is possible you could apply the above model to any large city....

Lled
13-06-2005, 16:27
That's for sure...it's always an eye opener over there....I remember reading the Exile or whatever it is (Dodgy Timeout Equiv.) with my mouth hanging open!!!

Well you stick round us then in future, all warm and safe at The Alb...Nothing but love and affection there... :inlove:

trebor
13-06-2005, 17:49
I've learned that things may not always be as they appear.

Talking to the guy might clear things up regarding his particular situation.

Do you mean after talking to him he might not have a hole in his head or an arm missing?
I remember from my time living in India and being driven to work each morning. At all the major intersections there would be lots of people with the most horrific injuries scrambling between the cars before the lights turned green, risking their lives for a couple of rupees.
I was later told they were controlled by the mafia (for want of a better word) who then paid the police to turn a blind eye to the fact they were there.
Still, i gave them money, very little, but still i gave.
Hardly likely they had both legs sawn off to earn a living is it?

jchidg1
13-06-2005, 17:51
Shall we chat about the three murders in my apartment block since December? The dead body in the road outside? The fighting on the metro especially on holidays? Best one was the guy having his arm twisted so much round the poll that it made the most wonderfull cracking noise! What about the people renting children, giving them sleeping draughts and begging?
The friend of mine who was raped and murdered because she went to the wrong people for drugs?

I could go on but you get the picture.

However it is possible you could apply the above model to any large city....

Exactly - I would no longer skip around off my face in some areas of London than I would Moscow.....I used to live in the "murder triangle" just off the Goldhawk Road and there were penty of guns going off there, mostly yardies blowing each others heads off. Dead bodies just lying there I do find unnerving - the same thing happeed in China....and, at the risk of sounding very cheesy, it just stikes me as tremendously sad that nobody gave a sh*t.

DJ Biscuit
13-06-2005, 17:54
Yep big cities are all alike, only I live in one of the quieter nicer areas of Moscow and they still keep killing each other and attacking people outside my entrance, mugging is the crime of choice these days. Problem is it happens in the most unexpected places.!! And all those horror stories I wrote about happened to nice queit people in decent areas.

It is peculiar that you can drive/walk down a road here and see a decapitated body uncovered, the head laying nearby, blood everywhere and cops standing around smoking and no one covers the body up and further more passers by don't care.

trebor
13-06-2005, 18:01
................The friend of mine who was raped and murdered because she went to the wrong people for drugs?..........

DJ Biscuit,
not quite sure what your trying to say there.
Life at that level in any city is dangerous. In Moscow i imagine it would be extremely complicated. Sorry, i'm not sure because neither i nor my friends buy drugs. What do you suggest special protection for people who want to indulge in that kind of activity?

jchidg1
13-06-2005, 18:05
Do you mean after talking to him he might not have a hole in his head or an arm missing?
I remember from my time living in India and being driven to work each morning. At all the major intersections there would be lots of people with the most horrific injuries scrambling between the cars before the lights turned green, risking their lives for a couple of rupees.
I was later told they were controlled by the mafia (for want of a better word) who then paid the police to turn a blind eye to the fact they were there.
Still, i gave them money, very little, but still i gave.
Hardly likely they had both legs sawn off to earn a living is it?


I felt like a complete sh*t for not giving the chap on the tube any money, but if I do - do I just pave the way for more of his kind to be exploited...or do I think, what the hell, if only one tenth of it goes to him, it's better than nothing? I dread to think of the paon that he must have gone through.
When I was travelling in Cambodia, I gave away practically all my money - or what was left of it after travelling for seven weeks - to people missing legs and arms. They had a very effective method of asking - didn't hassle you at all, just smiled and held out a hand patiently whilst you waited for your curry. Food doesn't slip down quite so well then. It was the only time I've been away and come back able to fit into a TopSHop size 6! (Girls will know what I mean.)

jchidg1
13-06-2005, 18:08
Yep big cities are all alike, only I live in one of the quieter nicer areas of Moscow and they still keep killing each other and attacking people outside my entrance, mugging is the crime of choice these days. Problem is it happens in the most unexpected places.!! And all those horror stories I wrote about happened to nice queit people in decent areas.

It is peculiar that you can drive/walk down a road here and see a decapitated body uncovered, the head laying nearby, blood everywhere and cops standing around smoking and no one covers the body up and further more passers by don't care.

That's what I meant when I said "life is cheap."

P.I.M.P.
13-06-2005, 19:06
I just don't give money... If I'm on the surface and see somebody asking for some change, I keep walking and stop at the nearest kiosk and buy them some food - sometimes just a hot dog, or pirozhok, but it's better than financing somebody higher in the pyramid...

When I walked to my old job, I'd pass by the same gypsy kids every day in the underpass and give them individually wrapped sesame cookies.

Kingwillhe
13-06-2005, 19:12
Do you mean after talking to him he might not have a hole in his head or an arm missing?
Err...no. I'm referring to jchidg1 somehow finding a way of dealing with this recurring situation and personalizing it might help (might not also, but hey)!

I had a problem with dead bodies not long ago. Seemed to be tripping over the troublesome things with alarming regularity. I wrote about it at first and then just ignored them. So far so good (knock on wood)!!

Gotta take care of #1.

DJ Biscuit
13-06-2005, 19:14
What do you suggest special protection for people who want to indulge in that kind of activity?

Certainly not. What are you suggesting? They deserve to be raped and murdered?

I was simply pointing out that as jchidg1 pointed out life is cheap in Moscow.

I'll try to be less subtle next time.

trebor
13-06-2005, 19:35
Certainly not. What are you suggesting? They deserve to be raped and murdered?

I was simply pointing out that as jchidg1 pointed out life is cheap in Moscow.

I'll try to be less subtle next time.

As i said i wasn't sure what you were trying to say.
But i would advise my friends first, to quit drugs.
If that didn't work then i would advise them to be very carefull where they buy them. BECAUSE LIFE IS VERY CHEAP IN MOSCOW.

DJ Biscuit
13-06-2005, 19:45
Indeed.

I won't get into a pointless back and forth thing with you over statistics, many many people dissapear, are murdered etc who do not do dangerous stuff too.

Sadly I had a waitress who worked for me in another establishment. One day in the summer she simply dissapeared. Went for a walk and that was it.

Police did a bit of a search, nothing. Then about a month or more later one of her friends received a call, it was the girl in distress ringing from a pay phone, didn't know where she was but managed to give enough land marks to allow the police and family to find her. Her story is this: She had been out walking, a car stoped three men bundled her into the car, taken her to some dacha, given her some sort of sedatives and raped and beat her repeatedly and kept her tied up for about 5 or 6 weeks. She only managed to escape when they got bored and lax with keeping her locked up. She had lost half her weight and you can imagine psychologically the state she was in.

But you can't tell people not to go for a walk at 4pm in the afternoon can you?

trebor
13-06-2005, 19:51
Indeed.

I won't get into a pointless back and forth thing with you over statistics, many many people dissapear, are murdered etc who do not do dangerous stuff too.

Sadly I had a waitress who worked for me in another establishment. One day in the summer she simply dissapeared. Went for a walk and that was it.

Police did a bit of a search, nothing. Then about a month or more later one of her friends received a call, it was the girl in distress ringing from a pay phone, didn't know where she was but managed to give enough land marks to allow the police and family to find her. Her story is this: She had been out walking, a car stoped three men bundled her into the car, taken her to some dacha, given her some sort of sedatives and raped and beat her repeatedly and kept her tied up for about 5 or 6 weeks. She only managed to escape when they got bored and lax with keeping her locked up. She had lost half her weight and you can imagine psychologically the state she was in.

But you can't tell people not to go for a walk at 4pm in the afternoon can you?

DJ
Far better example of how cheap life is in Russia

Green Tea
14-06-2005, 10:16
I've seen him a few times too...

One thing I do not understand is, why does he shave the top scarred part of his head??? If he let the hair grow in the top of his head would not look so bad. It seems like he is trying to maximize the shock of his condition.

Cherry
14-06-2005, 10:22
yeah seen that guy.
Oh God i saw a very old man hit by a car on Leningradsky prospekt... it was the most shocking thing i have ever seen.... its right that here you are used to see dead people but this old man under a cover with his stick..... and people were just passing by...

Alex
14-06-2005, 10:50
i saw a documentry about the beggers in moscow. it's absolutly unbelivable!! they have every thing ruled by mafia here and most of the crippled people we see here wearing army uniform and having no legs ect. are not soldiers at all. a lot of them are criminals who owed money or something and this is the way they have to pay their debts (they had legs before and performed the operations on purpose). the moms with the babies are also fake and the babies are usually stolen....
it makes me sick just writing abot it!!!

jchidg1
14-06-2005, 11:26
So I suppose the solution is to give directly to charities and institutions rather than beggars on the street - much like here really.

Alex
14-06-2005, 11:34
So I suppose the solution is to give directly to charities and institutions rather than beggars on the street - much like here really.

yes. the sad thing is that about 95% of the beggers are under the control of the mafia, so if u give them money they dont see any of it...
i give the kids food if i have with me. i dont know how well all the charity organizations work in russia....

Green Tea
14-06-2005, 11:41
i saw a documentry about the beggers in moscow. it's absolutly unbelivable!! they have every thing ruled by mafia here and most of the crippled people we see here wearing army uniform and having no legs ect. are not soldiers at all. a lot of them are criminals who owed money or something and this is the way they have to pay their debts (they had legs before and performed the operations on purpose). the moms with the babies are also fake and the babies are usually stolen....
it makes me sick just writing abot it!!!


Disinformation...

Tell the people they are fakes and crooks, people won't give money anymore, beggers go away, Putin and Luzhkov smile for the international cameras and say "Look how much we have cleaned up the streets!".

Alex
14-06-2005, 11:54
Disinformation...

Tell the people they are fakes and crooks, people won't give money anymore, beggers go away, Putin and Luzhkov smile for the international cameras and say "Look how much we have cleaned up the streets!".

if this is all a big masterplan of Putin and Luzhkov, it dosent seem to work so well....
dont think it's disinformation - havent u niticed the babies are ALWAYS asleep in the "mothers" arms ect. ect. ect.

Chubby Hubby
14-06-2005, 12:23
Before y'all start crying over this guy, you should take into account that everyone here has seen the same guy in a city of 12 million. He is in a genuinely sorry state, but it has won him a sort of infamy. In Pittsburgh, we had nicknames for some of the beggars - there was 'Sombrero Man,' who always wore a sombrero, and 'Mister Spaghetti,' an Italian guy that always asked for money to buy spaghetti.

The green line army guy always wakes me up because he has this really high-pitched, loud voice. "LUDEI DOBRE! POMOGITE PAZJALUSTA!" It really used to bother me before I started wearing headphones. These days he's usually drowned out by Counting Crows and so I don't have to wake up, although he sometimes bumps my feet with his wheelchair.

jchidg1
14-06-2005, 13:22
Before y'all start crying over this guy, you should take into account that everyone here has seen the same guy in a city of 12 million. He is in a genuinely sorry state, but it has won him a sort of infamy. In Pittsburgh, we had nicknames for some of the beggars - there was 'Sombrero Man,' who always wore a sombrero, and 'Mister Spaghetti,' an Italian guy that always asked for money to buy spaghetti.

The green line army guy always wakes me up because he has this really high-pitched, loud voice. "LUDEI DOBRE! POMOGITE PAZJALUSTA!" It really used to bother me before I started wearing headphones. These days he's usually drowned out by Counting Crows and so I don't have to wake up, although he sometimes bumps my feet with his wheelchair.


How very inconsiderate of him

Sobranie
14-06-2005, 13:47
Iv seen this chap and like a mug gave him money. I only recently understood that its an organised opperation. Hummm

I dont know if you are all hardened but Moscow but I do fined it at times unnerving. Last week a friend called me on the way home as her colleauge had been stabbed twice and 2 days latter I am close to a head gun shot victim. It feels like the more you see whats under the icing of the Moscow cake the more the cold hard reality hits you.

Still love the place but put razzor wire around my office door hahaha.

Chubby Hubby
14-06-2005, 15:04
How very inconsiderate of him

You've got to admit that the poverty here sort of makes you feel better about your lot in life. Not like we lord over them like Etruscan gods or something, but it goes to show that the middle class wage slaves back home aren't as low on the totem pole as it sometimes seems. :)

jchidg1
14-06-2005, 17:03
You've got to admit that the poverty here sort of makes you feel better about your lot in life. Not like we lord over them like Etruscan gods or something, but it goes to show that the middle class wage slaves back home aren't as low on the totem pole as it sometimes seems. :)


Quite - it doesn't make me feel "better" as such......more "appreciative."

Whether he's being exploited by the gangs/mafia or not, I just thank my lucky stars that I have not gone through what he has. I have my limbs, my health, happiness a relatively sane family and the worst thing I have to worry about today is whether a Traffic Warden Nazi Bast**d has slapped a 50 ticket in my car becuase I had no option but to leave it on a yellow line this morning.

Sobranie
14-06-2005, 18:43
Uk traffic Natzi B$&&&% have nothing of the compleat F&*^7s in Moscow. Absolute nut juggling F7^%$s. Money making total criminals. They call them selves police officers. The only office they have is the shit pit they were trained to be crimals. Police well a uniform. F*&%$s.

ok really sorry. just been stopped 4 times in 2 days and robbed of 100$. Thanks for the rant forum admin.

Goose0009
14-06-2005, 19:16
Before y'all start crying over this guy, you should take into account that everyone here has seen the same guy in a city of 12 million. He is in a genuinely sorry state, but it has won him a sort of infamy. In Pittsburgh, we had nicknames for some of the beggars - there was 'Sombrero Man,' who always wore a sombrero, and 'Mister Spaghetti,' an Italian guy that always asked for money to buy spaghetti.

You remember that black guy that was blind he would start singing at the top of his lungs with some kind of music box in downtown Oakland. Ha, that guy used to crack me up. He was "blind" but when you would give him some change he would always beable to make sure the change got in the cup.

Goose0009
14-06-2005, 19:19
You've got to admit that the poverty here sort of makes you feel better about your lot in life. Not like we lord over them like Etruscan gods or something, but it goes to show that the middle class wage slaves back home aren't as low on the totem pole as it sometimes seems. :)
You think its bad in Moscow go outside of Moscow. Moscow is like a whole different country compared to the rest of Russia. I lived in Siberia and I remember girls saving up for months to buy books like it was a big deal.

P.I.M.P.
14-06-2005, 19:39
You gotta love the expats who come here and never set foot outside of the Garden Ring or stay holed-up in their compounds at Pokrovsky Hills or Rosinka.

Chubby Hubby
14-06-2005, 21:19
You think its bad in Moscow go outside of Moscow. Moscow is like a whole different country compared to the rest of Russia. I lived in Siberia and I remember girls saving up for months to buy books like it was a big deal.

You could hear that guy for blocks... anyway you're certainly right about life outside of the capital... You always see families crammed into one-room apartments.

PIMP - Nobody likes the fortress people except for relo services and prep schools, but many such people have their reasons for living in guarded compounds. Asian families that don't speak a word of Russian and risk beatings, etc. are at the top of the list. Some are just misinformed - they come here thinking that Moscow is Calcutta.

druna
14-06-2005, 21:39
It's big biz here, I never give a copeck

Kingwillhe
14-06-2005, 22:34
You gotta love the expats who come here and never set foot outside of the Garden Ring or stay holed-up in their compounds at Pokrovsky Hills or Rosinka.
In 4 days I'll have been here a year. I just got home from a make work project 1 hr south of Moscow, take the brown from белорчсская and change at таганскаяб go to the end of the line and find my driver. On the way back he drops me off at серпчховская and home in 6 stops! been doing this for a month now, very educational for an old(er) guy. He don't speak English and I can only curse in Russian. Fun!

Sorry about the spelling.

PHolmes
15-06-2005, 05:08
Deleted for reasons

koba65
15-06-2005, 07:17
i saw a documentry about the beggers in moscow. it's absolutly unbelivable!! they have every thing ruled by mafia here and most of the crippled people we see here wearing army uniform and having no legs ect. are not soldiers at all. a lot of them are criminals who owed money or something and this is the way they have to pay their debts (they had legs before and performed the operations on purpose). the moms with the babies are also fake and the babies are usually stolen....
it makes me sick just writing abot it!!!


Yes, Yes, and Yes! That guy on the green line is probably not a veteran. Another way the mafia gets "beggars" is to advertise in provincial magazines/newspapers for disabled people. They promise them food, shelter, and clothing along with a job in Moscow.

I have it on good authority that disabled Russian veterans do have assistance and do have facilities they can use. If you truly believe this guy is a veteran, PM me and I will give you a point-of-contact who can help this guy.

koba65
15-06-2005, 07:20
Before y'all start crying over this guy, you should take into account that everyone here has seen the same guy in a city of 12 million. He is in a genuinely sorry state, but it has won him a sort of infamy. In Pittsburgh, we had nicknames for some of the beggars - there was 'Sombrero Man,' who always wore a sombrero, and 'Mister Spaghetti,' an Italian guy that always asked for money to buy spaghetti.


Speaking of Sombrero Men - whatever happened to the doorman at "Hello Mexico"?

Halyavshik
15-06-2005, 08:06
Before y'all start crying over this guy, you should take into account that everyone here has seen the same guy in a city of 12 million. He is in a genuinely sorry state, but it has won him a sort of infamy. In Pittsburgh, we had nicknames for some of the beggars - there was 'Sombrero Man,' who always wore a sombrero, and 'Mister Spaghetti,' an Italian guy that always asked for money to buy spaghetti.

The green line army guy always wakes me up because he has this really high-pitched, loud voice. "LUDEI DOBRE! POMOGITE PAZJALUSTA!" It really used to bother me before I started wearing headphones. These days he's usually drowned out by Counting Crows and so I don't have to wake up, although he sometimes bumps my feet with his wheelchair.

Twaj, why do you keep returning over and over and over again ? I mean, has getting banned, like, 20 times not sunken in yet ?

RDV
15-06-2005, 17:29
You've got to admit that the poverty here sort of makes you feel better about your lot in life. Not like we lord over them like Etruscan gods or something...

But that's exactly what happens. Otherwise you wouldn't have written about it. And it goes not just for expats. If you ever care to observe how some people throw money to beggars in underpaths, you'll understand what I mean.

Never thought I would do it but... I did talk to one of these guys on the metro for a few seconds. That particular guy was turned into a slave by the gypsies who gave him enough money to eat. I totally agree withb Alex about the criminal part of this system (it is a system!).

I don't give money. Don't feel like making their problems mine.

Sobranie
15-06-2005, 17:46
ALEX posted about a tv report
Ow my god. having limbs removed so you can beg more.

That is the worst thing society can bring.
Shit im a nieve B^&%$#$d.
I am positivly shocked to the soul.

jchidg1
16-06-2005, 01:00
But that's exactly what happens. Otherwise you wouldn't have written about it. And it goes not just for expats. If you ever care to observe how some people throw money to beggars in underpaths, you'll understand what I mean.

Never thought I would do it but... I did talk to one of these guys on the metro for a few seconds. That particular guy was turned into a slave by the gypsies who gave him enough money to eat. I totally agree withb Alex about the criminal part of this system (it is a system!).

I don't give money. Don't feel like making their problems mine.

Yes, but I have noticed that a lot of people - (expats and Russians ) give to pensioners who beg on the tube - are they slaves to the mafia, or is that 60 year woman just trying to eat??

jchidg1
16-06-2005, 01:02
ALEX posted about a tv report
Ow my god. having limbs removed so you can beg more.

That is the worst thing society can bring.
Shit im a nieve B^&%$#$d.
I am positivly shocked to the soul.


It happens in India all the time - especially if the children are / were pretty.

jchidg1
16-06-2005, 01:13
But that's exactly what happens. Otherwise you wouldn't have written about it. And it goes not just for expats. If you ever care to observe how some people throw money to beggars in underpaths, you'll understand what I mean.

Never thought I would do it but... I did talk to one of these guys on the metro for a few seconds. That particular guy was turned into a slave by the gypsies who gave him enough money to eat. I totally agree withb Alex about the criminal part of this system (it is a system!).

I don't give money. Don't feel like making their problems mine.

"I don't feel like making their problems mine,"

Well, yes that is totally understandable...... I suppose the natural reaction is to look after number one, especially if you're worked hard all your life, you've seen terrible things and your instinct is to look after your own.

So - nobody that you know or care about will ever hit hard times? Never be reliant on somebody else's good heart or charity? You will never be somebody else's problem? As somebody that (correct me if I'm wrong,) is relatively well off, you can wrap yourself in a complacent, self-satisfied bubble?- I know I'm being provocative here and it's not at all personal, I assure you......but how would you feel if you hit rock bottom and people didn't feel like making your problems theirs?

trebor
16-06-2005, 04:44
ALEX posted about a tv report
Ow my god. having limbs removed so you can beg more.

Even in India it's extremely rare.
I'm not convinced it happens here.

koba65
16-06-2005, 06:21
Even in India it's extremely rare.
I'm not convinced it happens here.


I also wasn't convinced until I woke up one morning in an bathtub packed with ice and a note telling me they took one of my kidnies. :rolleyes:

trebor
16-06-2005, 08:47
I also wasn't convinced until I woke up one morning in an bathtub packed with ice and a note telling me they took one of my kidnies. :rolleyes:

Originaly they wanted your liver. But of course that's f*cked! :)

koba65
16-06-2005, 09:22
Originaly they wanted your liver. But of course that's f*cked! :)

That's why I think it was someone who knows me!!

Jake Day
16-06-2005, 09:48
So - nobody that you know or care about will ever hit hard times? Never be reliant on somebody else's good heart or charity? You will never be somebody else's problem? As somebody that (correct me if I'm wrong,) is relatively well off, you can wrap yourself in a complacent, self-satisfied bubble?- I know I'm being provocative here and it's not at all personal, I assure you......but how would you feel if you hit rock bottom and people didn't feel like making your problems theirs?


So is this a karma thing? You should help people so that people will help you if you're ever stuck in a bad situation? In order to be on the street, you have to have alienated all of your friends and relatives. You also have to be ineligible for basic sales assistant jobs. The common denominator to both of these problems is usually either drugs or mental problems. I have known people in terribly bad situations - not in "I've been unemployed for 6 months and drink and play playstation all day" situations - more like situations where you're afraid that no matter what you do, there's a chance that you're going to get a call and hear that he or she died. A close friend of mine is in Narcotics Anonymous and has lost four or five people that she used to know over the past year or so. In none of these situations was anyone suffering because they didn't have enough money to eat - there was always some other, underlying problem - the worst is that most such people are morbidly depressed and completely incapable of doing anything for themselves.

On a lighter note, do you know who I sometimes give money to? The little old lady at Novokuznetskaya that has kitties on leashes. It's soooo cute....

RDV
16-06-2005, 13:57
Yes, but I have noticed that a lot of people - (expats and Russians ) give to pensioners who beg on the tube - are they slaves to the mafia, or is that 60 year woman just trying to eat??

Don't ask me - ask the woman.

RDV
16-06-2005, 15:07
"I don't feel like making their problems mine,"

Well, yes that is totally understandable...... I suppose the natural reaction is to look after number one, especially if you're worked hard all your life, you've seen terrible things and your instinct is to look after your own.

So - nobody that you know or care about will ever hit hard times? Never be reliant on somebody else's good heart or charity? You will never be somebody else's problem? As somebody that (correct me if I'm wrong,) is relatively well off, you can wrap yourself in a complacent, self-satisfied bubble?- I know I'm being provocative here and it's not at all personal, I assure you......but how would you feel if you hit rock bottom and people didn't feel like making your problems theirs?

As this is not personal but just an exchange of opinions, here is mine. Indeed the natural reaction is to look after number one. And it feels good! Can't quite figure out how you worked 'terrible things' into this though. Please explain.

Yeah, it is like an instinct. Taking care of one's own needs in the first place, solving your own problems first is the way I see it.

Interesting how you jumped from beggars on the tube to everyone I know. That's one hell of a generalization! Hey, let's bring everybody into the circle! Have you noticed how many times you used nobody/everybody and never/ever? No generalizations there either.

I was very specific about beggars because 'helping' to me is also a very specific thing. If you really want to help, why don't get to know that babushka closer. See if there are agencies that can employ her doing most basic work. What I told that guy on the tube who had no legs was that he could look into painting matryoshka dolls. Just a thought. Guess what? He agreed with me. I think it was a lot more than giving him 10 rubles.

I do care about people who are close to me but then again 'caring' is something that I need to define how I see it. And before this turns into a dictionary :), I will stop.

I would feel a lot better if people shared their experience solving similar problems that would show me a way to solve mine. Putting my problems on their shoulders suggests they will do the same one day and that's catch 22.

jchidg1
16-06-2005, 15:19
I think I may well have been having a red wine fuelled post crappo day rant last night, but am too embarassed to re read my post. I suspect that I may well have been talking out of my backside. Just ignore me!

Lled
16-06-2005, 15:21
I think I may well have been having a red wine fuelled post crappo day rant last night, but am too embarassed to re read my post. I suspect that I may well have been talking out of my backside. Just ignore me!

I knew you'd been at the ether again girl.

jchidg1
16-06-2005, 18:14
That obvious? Ooops. Sore head today.