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franzewich
17-08-2010, 01:19
There must be two things which are equally and unsurpassably mysterious, beautiful, fascinating, and incomprehensible: one is the Universe; the other one is Russian women!

Moskauerin
17-08-2010, 14:57
I am afraid to ask what has suggested the latter comment. Hope it was a very positive experience. ;)

franzewich
17-08-2010, 15:09
I am afraid to ask what has suggested the latter comment. Hope it was a very positive experience. ;)

Actually, both extremes again. Extremely wonderful, and extremely ... well, you got the point! ;) I would say: typical for Russian women!

Thank you for your concern - I'm fine! We can discuss in the BAVARIUS in October, if you like!

Lady Lana
17-08-2010, 15:28
Well, thank you...at least for trying to comprehend :)

franzewich
17-08-2010, 15:44
Well, thank you...at least for trying to comprehend :)

Look, I'm really giving my best - I still don't fully comprehend! Maybe you can help? ;)

Do we men approach that subject too much with our minds, and too little with our hearts? :question:

TolkoRaz
17-08-2010, 15:46
Russian women are indeed beautiful, but why do so many smoke? :thumbdwn:

franzewich
17-08-2010, 16:07
Russian women are indeed beautiful, but why do so many smoke? :thumbdwn:

They try to imitate the recent weather: Hot and Smoky! To make us men gasp! ;)

(btw.: You know what hurricanes and women have in common, don't you!?)

Lady Lana
17-08-2010, 16:14
Russian women are indeed beautiful, but why do so many smoke? :thumbdwn:

Yep, that's just a part of adaptive process :)

Lady Lana
17-08-2010, 16:16
Look, I'm really giving my best - I still don't fully comprehend! Maybe you can help? ;)

Do we men approach that subject too much with our minds, and too little with our hearts? :question:

that's a challenging process. what exactly can't you understand about Russian women?

TolkoRaz
17-08-2010, 16:23
They try to imitate the recent weather: Hot and Smoky! To make us men gasp! ;)


In my very humble opinion, it makes me choke and 'gag' at the best of times!

Smoking is a huge 'turn-off'! I mean, who wants to kiss an ashtray even if it is wearing hotpants, or no pants at all?!? :confused1:

Lady Lana
17-08-2010, 16:32
I mean, who wants to kiss an ashtray even if it is wearing hotpants, or no pants at all?!? :confused1:

Maybe someone who smokes? After all, it's a matter of choice

franzewich
17-08-2010, 18:04
... I mean, who wants to kiss an ashtray even if it is wearing hotpants, or no pants at all?!? :confused1:

It depends on what part you want to kiss it! ;)

franzewich
17-08-2010, 18:09
that's a challenging process. what exactly can't you understand about Russian women?

Fine, Mylady, so let's get started:

Question 1: How come, that Russian women seem to have this peculiar mental point system for awards?

I mean, if the man does 99 very good deeds to her, and he blows only one - he's doomed! The other 99 don't seem to count at all!? :question:

TolkoRaz
17-08-2010, 18:22
It depends on what part you want to kiss it! ;)

LOL! However, I could send you a video clip of lady smoking a King Edward cigar ;)

All I can write here is that she would not have got mouth cancer from doing so! ;)

ReallyGreatConcerts
17-08-2010, 18:41
Fine, Mylady, so let's get started:

I mean, if the man does 99 very good deeds to her, and he blows only one - he's doomed! The other 99 don't seem to count at all!?

You know what they say...

If a tree falls in a forest, and no-one is there to hear - does it still make a sound?

If a man is in a Russian forest, and no Russian woman is there to hear what he says.... is he still wrong?

:yikes:

franzewich
17-08-2010, 18:59
LOL! However, I could send you a video clip of lady smoking a King Edward cigar ;)

All I can write here is that she would not have got mouth cancer from doing so! ;)

No thanks - I think I've seen this video! Certainly not fit for display to ladies!

franzewich
17-08-2010, 19:02
... If a man is in a Russian forest, and no Russian woman is there to hear what he says.... is he still wrong?

:yikes:


Yes! According to a Russian woman he is still wrong - because of the "no matter what!"-rule! No chance! Period!!! Poor guy! :10301:

Lady Lana
18-08-2010, 10:05
Fine, Mylady, so let's get started:

Question 1: How come, that Russian women seem to have this peculiar mental point system for awards?

I mean, if the man does 99 very good deeds to her, and he blows only one - he's doomed! The other 99 don't seem to count at all!? :question:

Oh, you got into this trap :) Our "reasonable" explanation to that is that the one you've blown is worse than 99 good things you've done and therefore cancels them.
Also we think that if you start making mistakes/hurting/offending us that means that you've stopped trying hard that means you are starting taking us for granted which is a deadly sin :)
The thing to do is start doing 100 new good things all over again :)

franzewich
18-08-2010, 10:42
Oh, you got into this trap :) Our "reasonable" explanation to that is that the one you've blown is worse than 99 good things you've done and therefore cancels them.
Also we think that if you start making mistakes/hurting/offending us that means that you've stopped trying hard that means you are starting taking us for granted which is a deadly sin :)
The thing to do is start doing 100 new good things all over again :)


Well, you know, your explanation reminds me strongly of this guy "Sisyphus" from Greek mythology. The poor guy had infuriated the gods (I forgot how) and as a penalty he had to roll this huge boulder up a steep hill. And always, short before reaching the top, Sisyphus slipped and the boulder rolled down again. So poor Sisyphus had to start all over again - until eternity!

I didn't know the ancient Greeks knew Russian women so well!? ;)

But, o.k., I accept your point: Russian women are so wonderful, that men must be make eternal efforts in order to keep them!

One point for you! :applause:

Lady Lana
18-08-2010, 10:59
Thank you very much! And it's a great comparison! Haven't thought of it.

Btw I thought that winning any woman irrespectively of he origin would be Sisyphean toil :)

franzewich
19-08-2010, 01:16
... I thought that winning any woman irrespectively of he origin would be Sisyphean toil :)

It is a Sisyphean Toil - especially with Russian women, believe me!

For the sake of the argument, let's reduce the "99 to 1" down to "9 to 1". O.k.?

But, yes, it still is a Sisyphean task - especially for us Western men, who are used to more kind of "emancipation". So, you Russian Women, please be patient with us Westeners! We will get there, don't panic!


So, my dear Lady, let's get to the

Question 2: How come that Russian women are so incredibly unforgiving? Having applied Question 1. with a screw-up in one to nine (which is human!), they will never accept an apology! No matter what! We can do whatever we want - we are screwed! It's almost like some kind of psycho-terror! The more you try, the more you get bashed! And Russian women are very "good" at that! Is that the reason why Russian men find no other way out than making friends with "Brother Vodka", due to the lack of affordable head-shrinks?

Lady Lana
19-08-2010, 11:16
It is a Sisyphean Toil - especially with Russian women, believe me!

So, my dear Lady, let's get to the

Question 2: How come that Russian women are so incredibly unforgiving? Having applied Question 1. with a screw-up in one to nine (which is human!), they will never accept an apology! No matter what! We can do whatever we want - we are screwed! It's almost like some kind of psycho-terror! The more you try, the more you get bashed! And Russian women are very "good" at that! Is that the reason why Russian men find no other way out than making friends with "Brother Vodka", due to the lack of affordable head-shrinks?

:) Life is not easy, my dear friend. When you want something good you'll have to fight for it.

Russian women are forgiving, it just takes us longer to forget. An yes we do sometimes use men's past mistakes as an argument to prove our point :) Though...now that I think of it, there are some things that we never forget - anything that falls into a category of "betrayal".
The thing to do is to try to divert the girl's attention from this topic to help her forget. New emotions and activities can help.
Btw, Russian men are even worse, not only they remember all the bad things, they also remeber exactly when and where it happened and your exact words. This drives me insane! But I'm not seeking resort in Vodka :)

franzewich
19-08-2010, 12:10
:) Life is not easy, my dear friend. When you want something good you'll have to fight for it. ...

:thumbsup: Of course, life is not easy - would be dull otherwise!

And giving up easily is not exactly what a man should do - unless he realizes the improbability of his endeavor! ;) Which can easily be confused! :) :) :)

franzewich
19-08-2010, 13:46
... Russian women are forgiving, it just takes us longer to forget. An yes we do sometimes use men's past mistakes as an argument to prove our point :) Though...now that I think of it, there are some things that we never forget - anything that falls into a category of "betrayal".
The thing to do is to try to divert the girl's attention from this topic to help her forget. New emotions and activities can help...


Understood. I just wonder how long it actually takes for a Russian woman to forgive? I like your point of "new emotions and activities"! Does make a lot of sense! :thumbsup:

Another point for you - makes two! :) :)

GaNozri
19-08-2010, 13:56
Fine, Mylady, so let's get started:

Question 1: How come, that Russian women seem to have this peculiar mental point system for awards?

I mean, if the man does 99 very good deeds to her, and he blows only one - he's doomed! The other 99 don't seem to count at all!? :question:

The answer is to keep more than one. The more women you "date", the bigger statistical chance you have to be on one of them's good side. I have a rule with Russian women - I don't date stuck-up biatches who think they are God's gift to men, just because they have a decent boob job. The rest are just fine!

Lady Lana
19-08-2010, 14:23
Understood. I just wonder how long it actually takes for a Russian woman to forgive? I like your point of "new emotions and activities"! Does make a lot of sense! :thumbsup:

Another point for you - makes two! :) :)

I would say reasonably long. If you know that you are trying hard for a while and she still doesn't want to see that and complains about your mistake than maybe it's not worth it... Being offended and being capricious is not the same thing.

Lady Lana
19-08-2010, 14:25
The answer is to keep more than one. The more women you "date", the bigger statistical chance you have to be on one of them's good side. I have a rule with Russian women - I don't date stuck-up biatches who think they are God's gift to men, just because they have a decent boob job. The rest are just fine!

yeah, and you could use sort of "economy of scale" here. let's say you are dating 3 women, you could do the same 99 good deeds to all three :P

franzewich
19-08-2010, 14:32
The answer is to keep more than one. The more women you "date", the bigger statistical chance you have to be on one of them's good side. I have a rule with Russian women - I don't date stuck-up biatches who think they are God's gift to men, just because they have a decent boob job. The rest are just fine!

Sounds like an excellent idea at first - but what if you really love her and want to build up your future with her, marry her, adopt her son? And what if you don't really care that much about her boobs?

GaNozri
19-08-2010, 14:36
And what if you don't really care that much about her boobs?

You must be with the wrong woman.

franzewich
19-08-2010, 14:43
You must be with the wrong woman.

... or the right-minded one! :)

franzewich
20-08-2010, 09:48
MyLady, dear All,

maybe somebody has an explanation why there are such discrepancies between Russian women's verbal and non-verbal communication? :question:

I simply refuse to believe that the majority of Russian women I've been with are dishonest? Must be something else behind. Are they like foxes who need the security of multiple ways out of their burrows, i.e. relationships?

Lady Lana
20-08-2010, 12:02
MyLady, dear All,

maybe somebody has an explanation why there are such discrepancies between Russian women's verbal and non-verbal communication? :question:

I simply refuse to believe that the majority of Russian women I've been with are dishonest? Must be something else behind. Are they like foxes who need the security of multiple ways out of their burrows, i.e. relationships?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you give some examples?

franzewich
20-08-2010, 16:18
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you give some examples?

I've been in meetings all day long and will be taking off for Masuria in a couple of minutes - will answer early next week!

Have a nice weekend until then!

franzewich
20-08-2010, 16:30
...oh, and thank you for your patience to reply! ;) ;) ;)

franzewich
30-08-2010, 01:40
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Can you give some examples?


You may know that about 2/3 of the communication between us human beings happens “non-verbal”. Means by mimic, gestures, body language and behavior. Only about 1/3 is verbal communication; a mere 5-10% of the total is conveyed by the attributed meaning of the word itself. 25-30% is tonality and stress of words, etc.

Now, if a person is, say, “honest”, then verbal and non-verbal means of communication will match. But in Russian women – more often than not they don’t. So I find it very confusing to deal with them. :question:

Please understand that, at that point, I do not want to post any examples, since I don't want wrong connections to be drawn again. But other guys in this forum might contribute? ;)

Lady Lana
01-09-2010, 05:07
Now, if a person is, say, “honest”, then verbal and non-verbal means of communication will match. But in Russian women – more often than not they don’t. So I find it very confusing to deal with them. :question:



This is strange because non-verbal part is subconcious and very few people can control it. Basically you think that some Russian women don't mean what they say? In this case I can assure you that this is not a national characteristic nor something attributable to the gender. Men and women all over the world can do that :) However I cannot explain why they do that, to me it's a sign that they probably have a hidden agenda.

TolkoRaz
01-09-2010, 10:14
NVC is understood from hand, eye and body movement / position.

The main problem with reading Russian women is that they more often than not have a cigarette or mobile in their hands. This is likely to reduce an observer's understanding of natural NVC which would normally be understood from the what they were doing with their hands and how they were presenting them etc.

And of course the other point is that many Russian women also have a habit of wearing sunglasses even when it is not sunny. Clearly they hide the eyes and the path to the inner soul :10310:

Lady Lana
01-09-2010, 11:16
Clearly they hide the eyes and the path to the inner soul :10310:

There has to be some mistery in woman - always :)

TolkoRaz
01-09-2010, 11:18
There has to be some mistery in woman - always :)

LOL! :D They are a total misstery to me! :jester:

But, I still adore them! :inlove:

Lady Lana
01-09-2010, 11:31
LOL! :D They are a total misstery to me! :jester:

But, I still adore them! :inlove:

It's good that they....hmmm...we are misstery and not misery to you :P

TolkoRaz
01-09-2010, 11:34
It's good that they....hmmm...we are misstery and not misery to you :P

:D Some are a misery, all are a mystery, but most are a joy! :)

Lady Lana
01-09-2010, 12:16
:D Some are a misery, all are a mystery, but most are a joy! :)

:mml: Oh, you've got the whole set - mystery, misery and joy. it must be fun

TolkoRaz
01-09-2010, 12:44
Bags of Fun! :piano:

franzewich
01-09-2010, 13:04
Bags of Fun! :piano:


.. and very demanding - but fully worth it! ;) (most of them!)

Lady Lana
01-09-2010, 13:05
Bags of Fun! :piano:

..."as long as they don't meet each other" :p

Joe Kilroy
01-09-2010, 13:35
"Now, if a person is, say, “honest”, then verbal and non-verbal means of communication will match. But in Russian women – more often than not they don’t. So I find it very confusing to deal with them. "


This is a VERY good point, but not only Russian women do it, in the men too it happens.

I think it comes from growing up in a society where people had to hide their feelings and thoughts behind a mask, and not reveal them, because doing so was dangerous. So, everyone ends up like a poker player, hiding his/her cards.

It means there is always a discrepancy between verbal and non-verbal communication, which is in fact an unhealthy condition for people, because it is based on hiding your true self through a kind of fear, and having to lie.

The private and social human self should be in harmony, the verbal and non-verbal also. When it is not, you have this thing which you like to call "mystery" , but in reality is just a form of social and personal dysfunction linked to depression and low self-esteem.

Every relationship with a Russian becomes a painstaking search for the real person who is hidden under 100 layers and masks. Perhaps this is like the idea of the Matryushka doll, you think you have opened it up but there is always another one inside. If you are lucky enough to find the 'core' of the real person, and you still love it, and not just the pretty "shell", then you might be lucky and hit jackpot. But I prefer Western women because you don't need to read so many psychology books to communicate with them, and what you see is more often than not what you get, and there aren't gulfs in language and culture to get in the way. I think some people idealise Russian women and their so-called "mystery" because they actually don't really want to ever know the other person, and prefer the person to always be at a distance from them, like a shadow that you never get to catch. In fact, i think that much of how Western men see Russian women is nothing more than a kind of fetishism based on their appearance and image. For me, there are far too many shadows and not enough simple truth and light, but that for me is a problem in Russian society as a whole, not just the women. We are ALL products of our society and the most tragic form of corruption isn't financial, it's what happens to society and people's souls over time when fear erodes trust and happiness, and when people are brought up only to expect suffering from this life, and not only to expect it, but to believe that there is some kind of salvation to be had from it. It is a form of social and emotional masochism.


ps- I have noticed also that after 5 years in Moscow , my OWN verbal and non-verbal communication are also very out of synch with each other. My eyes and mouth completely lost their synchronicity and my face lost it's muscle plasticity,became frozen and fixed like a mask i was wearing. I lost my ability to smile, my eyes became HARD and fixed and sad, as if I was always on the point of bursting into tears, my facial muscles around my mouth became frozen, i lost my trust in people, became hostile and aggressive and distrustful and cynical about everything, started to hate more than to love, - to the point where my family and friends didn't recognise me, and i didn't recognise myself. I became a lying, angry , cynical distrustful world hater with NO joy in me at all, not one ounce of happinness, a zombie more dead than alive. I learnt to hide my feelings and to even deny they existed. I became clinically depressed. But the worst thing was, because everyone else was the same, i didn't notice it. I only realised it when I came to Spain for 3 weeks and met people who knew me and remembered me when i was a happy person.

TolkoRaz
01-09-2010, 16:20
..."as long as they don't meet each other" :p

:D

And as long as they are not all High Maintenance Ladies! ;)

franzewich
02-09-2010, 03:39
... I think it comes from growing up in a society where people had to hide their feelings and thoughts behind a mask, and not reveal them, because doing so was dangerous. So, everyone ends up like a poker player, hiding his/her cards. ...


Now, does this mean that we are all bound to turn into some dishonest persons? :question: I honestly hope that we won't. Because honesty and friendship are what I admired so much in Russian society!

I was actually not so much refering to body language or facial expressions as NVC - I was far more frustrated about the discrepancy between spoken word and behavior. If a (Russian) woman just wants an affair with a guy - fine! But if she then realizes that he is a "far better man than she thought at first" and wants more from him, even openly complains about him not giving her a "future", but still treats him as her weekend lover - what is a man supposed to think, how to behave? How can a Russian woman expect a (Western European) man to marry her if she does not even try to convince him that she loves him and that he is "The One" for her?

Lady Lana
02-09-2010, 03:54
[I]"

Every relationship with a Russian becomes a painstaking search for the real person who is hidden under 100 layers and masks.

ps- I have noticed also that after 5 years in Moscow , my OWN verbal and non-verbal communication are also very out of synch with each other. ...I only realised it when I came to Spain for 3 weeks and met people who knew me and remembered me when i was a happy person.

I have an opposite problem. My face shows all of my emotions which can be a nuisance since I work in a tough predominantly male business. :eh: In this case a little "matryeshkanism" could help :)

But I do agree that dating a Russian can be a challenge because people don't open up that easily. On the other hand when yo open up all of the matryeshkas, you can find a pearl which is really worth the whole process.

Lady Lana
02-09-2010, 03:59
How can a Russian woman expect a (Western European) man to marry her if she does not even try to convince him that she loves him and that he is "The One" for her?

That is probably because he is not "The One" for her. Imho when a person really loves someone an the feelings dominate the reason, he/she stops playing and starts living.

Gypsy
02-09-2010, 09:15
On the other hand when yo open up all of the matryeshkas, you can find a pearl which is really worth the whole process. Indeed. Really worth the process.


That is probably because he is not "The One" for her. Imho when a person really loves someone an the feelings dominate the reason, he/she stops playing and starts living.

Exactly. Very well put.

franzewich
02-09-2010, 12:19
That is probably because he is not "The One" for her. Imho when a person really loves someone an the feelings dominate the reason, he/she stops playing and starts living.


Thank you, Lana - I fully agree with you, and you are confirming what I had suspected all the time!

But why then are there constant complaints about us expats when we hesitate making commitments!?

See, that’s what I meant with diverging means of communication, NVC versus VC. Or, to put it more bluntly: A person who behaves like that is f*****g lying – either to the partner, or to her/himself, or to both.

Lady Lana
02-09-2010, 12:23
But why then are there constant complaints about us expats when we hesitate making commitments!?


I guess it's not about expats making commitments, it's about men in general having problems with commitments, which is true.

Lady Lana
02-09-2010, 12:26
See, that’s what I meant with diverging means of communication, NVC versus VC. Or, to put it more bluntly: A person who behaves like that is f*****g lying – either to the partner, or to her/himself, or to both.

I see, but I can't agree that this is common for Russian women

franzewich
02-09-2010, 12:48
I see, but I can't agree that this is common for Russian women

Certainly not common - but frequently found! I'm living in Poland at the moment, and I've met Russian women here who do behave the same way!

franzewich
02-09-2010, 12:51
I guess it's not about expats making commitments, it's about men in general having problems with commitments, which is true.


Actually, I always wondered about that: There are also female expats in Russia. Did they make similar experiences of "non-commitment" in Russian men?

Lady Lana
02-09-2010, 12:54
Actually, I always wondered about that: There are also female expats in Russia. Did they make similar experiences of "non-commitment" in Russian men?

Good question, I'd like to hear some opinions on that too.

Swordfish90293
03-09-2010, 00:21
But why then are there constant complaints about us expats when we hesitate making commitments!?

People sometimes complain or become upset when the object of desire doesn't conform to their wishes...this is true especially of men...