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View Full Version : OK So Why Does "Everyone" Hate Americans?



funkymonk
07-10-2003, 21:41
Aside from the fact that might makes right, America is a constant reproach to most of the world.

It is rich to their poor, strong to their weak, vigorous to their idle, enterprising to their reactionaries, genius to their bewildered, can-do to their sit-and-wait, thrusting to their timid.

It's not the working class of the world that hates America, it is the pseudointellectuals. To forgive America is to indict themselves. They stare in the mirror and rage at what they see. And that rage turns to hatred, and hatred needs a target.

Besides, it's just so damn unfair. Lousy cooking, no history, no perspective, etc. etc.

And all you non-Americans out there -- you think we actually like YOU? We're just a little more polite about it......sometimes.:p :p

natalia_apple
07-10-2003, 21:58
Originally posted by funkymonk
It's not the working class of the world that hates America, it is the pseudointellectuals
And all you non-Americans out there -- you think we actually like YOU? We're just a little more polite about it......sometimes.:p :p

You say: "it's not the working class of the world that hates America, it is the pseudointellectuals"

But why do you say: "ALL you non-Americans out there -- you think we actually like YOU?"

Are you serious when you say American people dislike ALL non-Americans?

funkymonk
07-10-2003, 22:03
mjhamson -- of course I am, don't be silly.....

natalia -- as far as I can tell, all Americans love everyone, we're just so bewildered that some people don't seem to completely apprreciate us as a group. Of course as individuals we're pretty much all fine Guys and Gals....

DaveUK1965
07-10-2003, 22:19
Originally posted by funkymonk
Aside from the fact that might makes right,

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot....... might does NOT make right.

Right makes might.

It`s Mok again. ;-)) The trouble SOME people have is not realising that their own country stops at its` borders and when you cross those borders, you are in someone elses` house and should behave as a guest mindful of someone elses` rules - whether you perceive them to be right or not.

I don`t hate Americans. I have so many good friends from there - REALLY good, kind, honest, open people. I just hate IDIOTS regardless of nationality.

There is NO such thing as "America" if you FORGET the concept of nationality and regard the world as a collection of people - all of whose views are worthy of tolerance or at least an attempt to comprehend them.

funkymonk
07-10-2003, 22:43
<<Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot....... might does NOT make right.>>

Well, OK -- Henry V, George Washington, Mao-Tse-Tung, etc.... there are winners and losers according to that theory. My point was that when a group/nation/ruling class views its interests as being in a certain direction and has the power to enforce or articulate them, they sometimes do that. And the only counter-example I can bring to mind is Mahatma Ghandi.

The "might makes right" comment was my take on how a lot of people I know view American military, political, and economic intervention in other parts of the world.

<<It`s Mok again. ;-)) The trouble SOME people have is not realising that their own country stops at its` borders and when you cross those borders, you are in someone elses` house and should behave as a guest mindful of someone elses` rules - whether you perceive them to be right or not.>>

It's a good point that runs agound on reality. It's like the argument that the world should "understand" people who fly airliners into buildings, blow up embassies, etc. because they must have had a valid grievance.


<<I don`t hate Americans. I have so many good friends from there - REALLY good, kind, honest, open people. I just hate IDIOTS regardless of nationality.

There is NO such thing as "America" if you FORGET the concept of nationality and regard the world as a collection of people - all of whose views are worthy of tolerance or at least an attempt to comprehend them>>

Now that's a worthy statement, and one that runs counter to your idea that outside one's borders you have to respect the views and gross activities of others - -like Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler. And it invites intervention around the world when people of one view start slaughtering people of another view. It's not a 1-dimensional problem.

But I take your point -- people outside of America are troubled by unilateralism on an international scale. I would make the point that most of that over the past 2 years is a reaction on America's part to a failure to deal with threats to it's internal peace and security. But this failure was unavoidable and the reaction of the US to stomp on something inevitable.

It seems to me that one of the biggest issues people have with America is the US's professed devotion to "freedom, liberty, etc" while engaging in depriving a large number of human beings of the ability to breathe. If North Korea did the same thing, folks would shrug and say, "Oh, those wacky North Koreans...."

Anyway I stand by my original point that there is a lot of hatred out there for America and what it professes to stand for. And you can boil down all those lovely words to a single concept: "it's not bloody fair!"

twaj
08-10-2003, 03:37
strong to their weak? rich to their poor?

Somebody's been reading a little too much Ayn Rand.

I want to see Leonard Peikoff arm-wrestle Billy Graham for control of America's pseudo-counter-pseudo-intellectual right.

natalia_apple
08-10-2003, 03:39
I wish someone would enlighten us non-Americans a bit

Who are the people you mention? Ayn Rand?

Leonard Peikoff? Billy Graham?

Ned Kelly
08-10-2003, 07:47
Welcome back Commander Cody! The only thing I don't like about Americans is the prevalence of obesity which seems to me to indicate a decadent empire in decline.

moscowmail
08-10-2003, 09:16
Well Funky Monk

I personally have nothing against any nationality, it is idiots I have a problem with you of course are not one of them ;)

Some people dislike us Brits, I personally do not like England as a Country, a crap legal, political and healthcare system, and an unfair practice of penalizing the people who are honest...ah well, this is why I am in such a great Country now ;)

Ned Kelly
08-10-2003, 09:45
Yes, thank god for the Russian "legal, political and healthcare system," that does not have the "unfair practice of penalizing the people who are honest". :p

moscowmail
08-10-2003, 10:42
Hmm, good point Ned, but the point is at least here in Russia we can expect and accept the system, we know how ermm corrupt and ineffective it is, however, in the UK they claim to have a fantastic this and a blah blah that...

Ned, there are many examples of the bad ways the normal person gets **** on in the UK.

I will say that the Drs here are far better, I recently had a very bad ear infection, seen Drs when I was away and no help, got back here and viola, lazer treatment and a few drugs and good as new.

Also had my eyes lazered here, less than a $1000 for both eyes and great results...

Anyway, this is my personal point of view :)

Ned Kelly
08-10-2003, 10:44
Well, I agree it's a great country (wouldn't be here otherwise) - as long as you've got the money to not have to deal with the state:rolleyes:

Thing-Fish
08-10-2003, 11:40
Why shouldn't the rest of the world hate the US? Think about who populates the US -- descendants of the rejects of the rest of the world. Great countries with long histories threw out their trash -- England and their Puritans, Eastern Europe and their Jews, Italy and their landless peasants, Ireland and their, well, Irish, etc... and in less than three centuries those losers (after a little ethnic cleansing on the natives that was thankfully complete before the advent of television or human rights) turned around and built this beautifully insensitive, selfish, hypocritical and oafish military-industrial colossus attached to a foreign policy that can be reduced to three words (the first two being "suck my"). People say that America has no history, but that's not true. America is nothing more or less than the greatest example of "****ing **** me? ****ing **** YOU!" (with apologies to Robert De Niro) in history.

mokliak
08-10-2003, 12:11
Not me...but I wish it was. Excellent argument Funkymonk. and very well stated.

The two cents I want to add is a bit to refute the point Dave made about Americans not having the proper attitude when in someone else's "country/home"

First, the logic of that escapes me? Do I stop being human just because I leave my borders? Because I am in another country I now must accept less than humane conditions?

Rude is rude and it has no borders...dehumanizing is dehumanizing regardless of territory.

If I saw a man beating the shit out of a small child in a restaurant I would go over there to intervene. If that man said that "I was not a part of that family and I should mind my own business" I would have just another proof that the man was irrational...but I would still understand that the proper thing to do is to act on the child's behalf.

As I come over to another country I do not take leave of my senses...I do not abandon morality...I do not go on vacation from my conscience. Every day in Russia I see brutality, hostility, aggression and when the Russians tell me to mind my manners in their house I see just further proof of their irrationality.

Second part of this argument has to do with having a proper understanding of American culture. We are a country of individuals. Uniqueness is tolerated and even encouraged in America. While the weirdo may get looks just the same in the US, the entrepreneur, the maverick, the passionate advocate, the zealot, the champion, the innovator, the rebel are all supported and encouraged in US society.

We do not wish to conform...especially to standards we find appalling. We do not need to conform...in fact we believe the contrary...that those off track should realign themselves. Not follow US standards...we do not advocate that the rest of the world become like America. We stand for the rest of the world standing up for their own values and not tolerating inhumanity and oppression.

Why is there a statue still of Lenin in Russia? To an American it is like having a statue dedicated to the guy who thought the world was round. When Russians can answer that question for themselves then the Americans will stop trying to offer their assistance.

jheisel
08-10-2003, 12:16
Originally posted by mokliak
Why is there a statue still of Lenin in Russia? To an American it is like having a statue dedicated to the guy who thought the world was round. When Russians can answer that question for themselves then the Americans will stop trying to offer their assistance.

As an American, I would have to say that ignorant questions like this are why Americans are hated.

moscowmail
08-10-2003, 12:21
To be honest, this thread is not getting the exposure it deserves, I will move it to expat cafe.

Cheers

L

DaveUK1965
08-10-2003, 12:22
Nice to know America is assisting Russia, though. ;-)))))

Ned Kelly
08-10-2003, 13:39
What do you do to make Russians tell you to mind your manners in their house?

meljomur
08-10-2003, 22:02
Now if the people on this site could just become the leaders of the discussed countries...

"And I think to myself what a wonderful world"
Louis Armstrong

By the way I hear this song quite a bit on the radio here.

MDW
15-10-2003, 11:23
Mokliak, you're right, that's what every normal human being would do. But the atrocity of the American foreign policy hypocrisy is that they choose very selectively "what small child" to help and "what restaurant to go to". For example, in "a restaurant" like Saudi Arabia or Ivory Coast, they not only can beat the shit out of "small children", they can rape, torture and kill them all, if they please, the American "freedom" fighters won't move an eyebrow, because the "manager" of that "restaurant" pays some fat bribes to that US "man". If the "manager" stops doing so, like Iraq or Nicaragua, now it's time to show yourself to the rest of the world what a "kind good" ol' man you are. Oh, please! Gimme a break! Stop being so naive!

DaveUK1965
15-10-2003, 14:27
Funny how the Taliban were allowed to barbarically terrorise Afghanistan for years... until they went off and did a baaad thing - harbour Bin Laden......

.... a Saudi subject supported by Saudi money, but I don`t see Saudi Arabia, whose human rights record is nothing short of disgraceful, included in the "axis of evil". Nor China.

Also funny that during the Iran/Iraq war, Uncle Saddam was seen by the West as the "good guy" and had quite a fair few CIA dollars shipped his way because he was fighting Khomeini. And despite a regime of appalling repression and brutality, nobody gave a monkeys about Saddam until Kuwait was invaded and the flow of cheap oil to America was threatened... it was only at that point that Saddam grew horns and a tail.

If America IS on some kind of holy crusade to remove evil from the world, it`d better start off in Africa. And then move on to China. The point is that it`s NOT on a moral crusade, its`protecting its` internal interests by playing power politics outside it`s own borders. Much as the British Empire used to do.

Or - and this`ll upset Mok, but I`d like to see him argue against it - the Soviet Union. ;-)))))

I have absolutely nothing at all against the American people. But it`s foreign policy stinks.

DJ Biscuit
15-10-2003, 14:52
Good call as usual Dave.

If it is a crusade to rid the world of evil how come they never bombed Moscow over Chechnya or London over the N.Ireland thing or they could have saved a lot of money and started nearer home.

Remember how they with UK help saved democracy in Royal Kuwait. Not only do they think the world is stupid enough to swollow this rubbish, they are right!

DaveUK1965
15-10-2003, 14:57
Plus, Dubya just asked for an extra $86 billion as well, DJ. Cost so far - I hear, I`m not sure about this - $166 billion.

Wouldn`t it have been much nicer to ensure the education and standard of living for deprived people in the third world ? Built schools, hospitals, decent housing and given someone somewhere some reason to be thankful and grateful of American values of generosity and aid.....

..... rather than drop a cluster bomb on `em ???

PS London, unfortunately, is a little different matter. ;-)) Honestly. The troops were sent in to stop the Protestants in Ireland massacring the Catholic minority- unfortunately the problem went waaaaaaaaaay back to the 16th Century (and probably before that) - but I think you`ll find that with the amount of women and children the IRA blew to bits, they`re the real villains of the piece, to be honest. Anyway. That`s seemingly resolved. To the extent that nobody`s blowing anyone up anymore (but the "Real IRA" and "Continuity IRA" are still active. Maniacs. ) - religious intolerance, petty hatred - who needs it ?

This is one world and borders are all in the mind. Which is a great way of looking at foreign policy, after all.....

DJ Biscuit
15-10-2003, 15:08
Who the real villains are is not part of the equation. :) :)

DaveUK1965
15-10-2003, 15:18
Yep. It`s all about solutions - bread or bullets. Bread being the better one... ;-)

DJ Biscuit
15-10-2003, 15:33
Problem is Bush and gang know which side their bread is buttered on. :)))))))

MDW
17-10-2003, 03:55
Dave! 3rd world? Go to any ghetto of any major US city! It's worse than the baddest neighborhoods of Calcutta or Bogota! That's where they should start helping people!

natalia_apple
17-10-2003, 03:58
I read an article about Harlem in a paper, just scary what life conditions people have there...
....though somewhere in Russia in a village far from the capital it's not better

MDW
17-10-2003, 04:07
Harlem is more or less ok, try Watts! The most decadent Russian villages will appear a Heaven on Earth to you afterwards.

DaveUK1965
17-10-2003, 04:23
Yep, same here ! Passed through some lovely examples of UK town planning today, MDW. ;-))) Passed through quickly, that is.....

Always remember my near-brother in law(long story) - Sergei - got his head kicked in one dark night in Volgograd. I know about the same number of Russians as I do UK folks - but - over here, the amount of trouble is ten times worse - Sergei got mugged by a couple of drunks for cigarettes (proves they`re bad for you) - over here, there`s armed robberies at the local shops, high speed car chases - unarmed cops, kids with AK-47`s.... went right past our house- and you just don`t go out after the pubs throw the drunks out.

I`ve seen provincial Russia, I`ve spent some time there, and UK slum areas (and I`m sure US ones) are a lot less civilised. Natalia`s right, life in a village in Russia is pretty unprivileged, but - Russians are generally a lot nicer to each other than over here.


Originally posted by MDW
Dave! 3rd world? Go to any ghetto of any major US city! It's worse than the baddest neighborhoods of Calcutta or Bogota! That's where they should start helping people!

natalia_apple
17-10-2003, 04:41
Originally posted by MDW
Harlem is more or less ok, try Watts! The most decadent Russian villages will appear a Heaven on Earth to you afterwards.

Watts? Where is that place, I wonder?

MDW
23-10-2003, 01:53
L.A.

twaj
23-10-2003, 02:05
Hey Natalia - do what we pseudo-intellects do: go to wikipedia, read the information, and pretend you've known it for years. :D

Ayn Rand is a vehemently pro-capitalist Russian diaspora writer that is virtually unknown in the country of her birth but well-respected or at least widely aknowledged among the atheist right in America. Peikoff was one of her students that covetously guards the right to publish her books, which continue to enjoy a cult status among libertarians (people who advocate minimal government and free markets.) She is the author of about three or four popular books from the 30's, 40's, and 50's. Billy Graham is a bible thumper popular with religious goofballs that wait until they are married to have sex.

Rand Quotes:

Thanksgiving is a typically American holiday...The lavish meal is a symbol of the fact that abundant consumption is the result and reward of production.

The Argument from Intimidation [arguing through violence or the threat of violence] is a confession of intellectual impotence.

There is a level of cowardice lower than that of the conformist: the fashionable non-conformist.

Men have been taught that it is a virtue to agree with others. But the creator is the man who disagrees. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to swim with the current. But the creator is the man who goes against the current. Men have been taught that it is a virtue to stand together. But the creator is the man who stands alone.

Graham Quotes:

The only time my prayers are never answered is on the golf course.

One with God is a majority.




Originally posted by natalia_apple
I wish someone would enlighten us non-Americans a bit

Who are the people you mention? Ayn Rand?

Leonard Peikoff? Billy Graham?

natalia_apple
23-10-2003, 02:05
I was going to LA but had to cancel my trip because of the September 11th bombings, the airline companies just didnt fly

natalia_apple
23-10-2003, 02:07
Originally posted by twaj
Hey Natalia - do what we pseudo-intellects do: go to wikipedia, read the information, and pretend you've known it for years. :D

Is wikipedia some website where you guys hang out?
but you all sound so intellectual!

twaj
23-10-2003, 02:20
hey you I edited my post. ;)

natalia_apple
23-10-2003, 02:28
"Hey you" doesn't sound awfully polite, does it?

twaj
23-10-2003, 14:08
I come from a group of people among whom 'mmmmbitch' is considered a term of endearment, so 'hey you' is considered ok, especially with a ;)

natalia_apple
23-10-2003, 17:33
Thanx for enlightening me

DaveUK1965
23-10-2003, 20:49
"Rand Quotes:

Thanksgiving is a typically American holiday...The lavish meal is a symbol of the fact that abundant consumption is the result and reward of production."

Sounds like Karl Marx read backwards. ;-)

twaj
23-10-2003, 23:31
That's basically the point -- my poli. sci. professor called it 'warmed over Nietszche.' Her writing style is mediocre in the opinion of most Americans because it's long-winded: then again, my gf said that she just writes like a Russian. Her ideas are unique: how many unrepentant atheist capitalists do you know? I mentioned her because the original poster started to sound like what Americans call a 'randroid:' one who repeats the ideas of Ayn Rand without qualification. Ideas like 'America is despised because it is a strong, individual country standing alone in a snivellingly parochial collectivist world.' I knew a lot of people that said things like this when I interned at the Cato Institute. They were usually single men, many of whom had lost their virginity only in their 20's.