PDA

View Full Version : English Premier League 2010/11



Judge
13-08-2010, 21:47
Another season is ready to kick off, here's the full list of the weekend games..

Saturday, August 14 2010

Premier League

12.45 Tottenham Hotspur-Manchester City
15.00 Aston Villa -West Ham United
15.00 Wolverhampton Wanderers -Stoke City
15.00 Sunderland -Birmingham City
15.00 Blackburn Rovers -Everton
15.00 Wigan Athletic -Blackpool
15.00 Bolton Wanderers -Fulham
17.30 Chelsea - West Bromwich Albion

Sunday, August 15 2010

Premier League

16.00:iloveyou: Liverpool - Arsenal

Gypsy
13-08-2010, 22:45
From today;s Fiver

HERE WE GO AGAIN ...

It's great to be here. The Fiver thanks you. Your favourite daily tea-time email has been doing its annual Premier League preview for nearly 10 years now, so bear with us while we plaster on a fake smile and plough through this [rude word] one more time.

When it's not paraphrasing dead comedian Bill Hicks, the Fiver is generally doing one of two things: being resolutely unfunny, or sitting in a slightly less neon-bright corner of Big Paper office, clutching its knees to its chest, rocking imperceptibly and sobbing in anticipation of a new Premier League season.

Another campaign. Another nine months of having to listen to idiots complain about which team of indifferent money-driven foreign mercenaries were assembled for the lowest net spend. Of having to read sports pages that contain more information about leveraged buyouts than football. Of having to feign interest in Sir Alex Ferguson's latest hypocritical tantrum or the Big News that Zat Knight has been ruled out for three months with a mislaid shinpad.

Of listening to Andy Gray or Richard Keys say "it doesn't get bigger than this" as the players lined up in the tunnel at St Andrews shout "C'mon boys!" and Sky cut to an ad break just before the kick-off of Birmingham City v Blackburn Rovers. Like the posters on our sportblog who argue over whether Manchester City's sugar daddy is better than Chelsea's sugar daddy, we could go on and on and on and on and on and on and on. But unlike the etc and so on, we won't.

But away from all the hoop-la, once the players cross the white line and the football starts, things do occasionally turn interesting. Take tomorrow lunchtime, when Tottenham take on Manchester City in an encounter that hundreds of thousands of people are quite literally calling "a football match". But with a place at the Premier League summit up for grabs for the winners, it's so much more than that. You wait until MOTD2 the Fiver knows those wags among the support of both teams are getting hilarious top-of-the-table-after-one-game T-shirts printed at their local branch of Snappy Snap as we speak.

Elsewhere, title hopefuls Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester United will be favourites to prevail in matches against teams such as West Brom, Liverpool and Newcastle, a couple of whom may get a result so that delusional Premier League cheerleaders can claim the competition isn't as predictable as everyone says.

Meanwhile Blackpool will attempt to get their inevitable relegation campaign off to a flyer by losing heavily against Wigan. "When we go there I can assure you I'm going to make it as tough for them as I can and I'm going to try to attack them because that is what I believe in," said Blackpool boss Ian Holloway, a manager who is funny, enjoys his football and insists his teams play it the right way, but will resemble a dead-eyed, burnt-out husk by December, when the bloated out-of-control behemoth that is the Best League In The World and its lapdog Sky have had their wicked way.

Judge
13-08-2010, 22:57
The above more or less sums it up, but they should have put another team that begins with West in with the likes of West Brom and Newcastle..;)

Max77
14-08-2010, 22:15
Enjoyed watching season opener at home today. Good thing "Россия" channels will be broadcasting some of the EPL games throughout this season. Is there any chance to tune to English commentary on the web? I tried without success some of the links on bbc.com... :-(
I am particularly interested in Spurs, Gunners and Chelsea games.
:tv:

martpark
14-08-2010, 22:30
Enjoyed watching season opener at home today. Good thing "Россия" channels will be broadcasting some of the EPL games throughout this season. Is there any chance to tune to English commentary on the web? I tried without success some of the links on bbc.com... :-(
I am particularly interested in Spurs, Gunners and Chelsea games.
:tv:

The place to go for all Prem. games/sports. www.myp2p.eu. Some need programs, others just need Windows Media player.

martpark
14-08-2010, 22:33
Well City survived but maybe Mancini needs to adapt a bit better. Still a lot of new faces, so not bad.

Gypsy
14-08-2010, 23:29
CFC looked good. I do expect them to slowly decline as the season progresses though.

martpark
14-08-2010, 23:39
CFC looked good. I do expect them to slowly decline as the season progresses though.

But you know who the big surprise was...BLACKPOOL!

Judge
15-08-2010, 02:45
But you know who the big surprise was...BLACKPOOL!


Great result for Blackpool everyone was knocking them, hope they stay up..
Might as well hand the cup to Chelsea..We can only hope they peak early and be tired come the new year...

Already two dropped points for your team, atleast you were away..:p

Rhubard Geoff
15-08-2010, 08:30
From today;s Fiver


Meanwhile Blackpool will attempt to get their inevitable relegation campaign off to a flyer by losing heavily against Wigan. ".

Ahem.

Gypsy
15-08-2010, 11:02
Ahem.

The Fiver can usually be relied on to be 100% wrong. It's part of its charm.

Matt24
15-08-2010, 11:26
But you know who the big surprise was...BLACKPOOL!

I had money on Blackpool winning yesterday, admittedly not much, I think that's the last you'll see of them until the return fixture, when they'll do the wigan double, be a quasi-giant killed in the FA cup, and sink into the championship before Easter - it's pretty much Swindon all over again, this time with Wigan playing the role of QPR - I was quite surprised by how well Chelsea got off, seems like Ancelotti gave the right advice, this season extra bonus' only come from wins and goals - nothing for appearances / nothing for not collecting cards / nothing for maintaining top three places and nothing for draws - could be fun

Matt

Matt24
15-08-2010, 21:29
Ngog what a goal! Reina what a plum! What on earth were Everton wearing?

martpark
15-08-2010, 22:43
Ngog what a goal! Reina what a plum! What on earth were Everton wearing?

When I saw the Everton tops I had to laugh. Maybe it doubles as a training top and for the local lollipop ladies.

Judge
16-08-2010, 01:53
Good game from Liverpool, Reina pulls off a world class save and then 5 mins later fumbles the ball over the line..2 points lost,hope Joe Cole only gets a 1 match ban.

IGIT
16-08-2010, 13:15
Don't you just love the EPL? !!!:trampoline:

Judge
17-08-2010, 02:57
Don't you just love the EPL? !!!:trampoline:
Yep, still the best league in the world, so much action and controversy in the opening games, just can't beat it...The way things are going I can see English teams dominating Europe again for the next 5 years.

Gypsy
17-08-2010, 03:56
Yep, still the best league in the world, so much action and controversy in the opening games, just can't beat it...The way things are going I can see English teams dominating Europe again for the next 5 years.

If ever a World Cup proved that the EPL is far from the best league in the world it was this one.

Most commentators were agreed on that. One player was it who started in the final from the EPL, the almost complete lack of players from the EPL in the final 4; and precious few in the 8.

As a joke the Grauniad guys were saying that even Sky would not dare to call the EPL the best in the world, and in another place I suggested that it would take until Xmas before anyone did - but here we are.

On what possible basis can you claim that the mediocre stuff served up over the weekend constitutes the Best in the World?

Clearly the Spanish is better, the German is better and more exciting, Italian technically better although not as exciting as it was.

If you want exciting attacking football then Germany leads the way, as it has for the last 2 or 3 years. For sheer quality Spain, Italy and Germany are still ahead.

The EPL has money, but even that doesn't attract the very best. Of those playing in the EPL only Drogba would make it into a World Eleven, and he wouldn't have when he came from Marseille.

So, not as exciting as Germany, for quality of football not as good as Italy, Spain or Germany, and doesn't have the best players.

On what basis do you claim it to be the Best League in the World? Or do you just hope, like Sky, that mere repetition makes it so?

Judge
17-08-2010, 05:03
If ever a World Cup proved that the EPL is far from the best league in the world it was this one.
Good job it isn't, we can't rely on the English players to make the ELP the best league.


Most commentators were agreed on that. One player was it who started in the final from the EPL, the almost complete lack of players from the EPL in the final 4; and precious few in the 8.

Spanish players don't usually travel well, same goes for Uruguay,their main player used to play in England..There are/were a few Dutch in the EPL...The German captain was out injuried,.The Germans players are like Spain they mostly play in their own league..I put it down to the english weather...





On what possible basis can you claim that the mediocre stuff served up over the weekend constitutes the Best in the World?
Blackpool winning away 4 nil,:jester:



Clearly the Spanish is better, the German is better and more exciting, Italian technically better although not as exciting as it was.
Each to their own,spanish league is mostly between two teams..Same can be said about the prem league, but other teams are closing in..

I'd prefer to watch paint dry than watch two average Italian teams play..That goes for Juve and AC Milan...
The Spanish league is very good ,very exciting football is played over there..
Germany, I haven't really given that league much thought for along time...





The EPL has money, but even that doesn't attract the very best. Of those playing in the EPL only Drogba would make it into a World Eleven, and he wouldn't have when he came from Marseille.
Teves , mascherano and malouda could easily make it and maybe Rooney if he ever turns up when it's needed..







On what basis do you claim it to be the Best League in the World? Or do you just hope, like Sky, that mere repetition makes it so?
It's the league where the team I support plays in....The rest I don't really care about..

Gypsy
17-08-2010, 06:25
Good job it isn't, we can't rely on the English players to make the ELP the best league.
I wasn't even thinking about English players, it was depressing enough a month ago.


Spanish players don't usually travel well, same goes for Uruguay,their main player used to play in England..There are/were a few Dutch in the EPL...The German captain was out injuried,.The Germans players are like Spain they mostly play in their own league..I put it down to the english weather... I don't understand the relevance of this; I don't think it explains why the very best go to Italy and Spain.


Blackpool winning away 4 nil,:jester: To Wigan :)



Each to their own,spanish league is mostly between two teams..Same can be said about the prem league, but other teams are closing in.. So what? The other games are just as exciting. eg where is the young talent coming through to rival Sergio Canales in England?


I'd prefer to watch paint dry than watch two average Italian teams play..That goes for Juve and AC Milan...
The Spanish league is very good ,very exciting football is played over there..Germany, I haven't really given that league much thought for along time...
You should - for the last 4 years it has been a feast of open attacking football. You saw how Germany played in WC? That was no surprise to anyone who watched the Bundesliga.




Teves , mascherano and malouda could easily make it and maybe Rooney if he ever turns up when it's needed.. Neither Tevez nor Mascherano would, sorry. Rooney? That canard was killed at the WC.




It's the league where the team I support plays in....The rest I don't really care about.. This, I think, is the point.

IGIT
17-08-2010, 13:14
What was the achievement of the Spaniards on international scene prior to Euro 08 and WC 2010? Yeah you guessed right.

I don't understand why everyone is using Spain as an example. France did same some years back. It goes round in circles. Nothing extraordinary and it has little to do with the league or will you say the French league was the hottest at that time France won the Euros and WC?

The EPL is still the MOST competitive league in the World. Take it or leave.

It's fast and furious. Not like the La Liga where you can actually sleep off cos the passing game of theirs can get ridiculous sometimes. Don't get me wrong, it is interesting. I like it. I watch it...(holla Real Madrid) but gosh, EPL rules.

If the English team played badly due to a weak league (as you say) then what would you say of the Italians? Mind you, an Italian team (yes it is an Italian team because Inter is Italian and if you look into their history, they were made up to be like that...) won the UCL.
A team that trounced the La Liga Champions, German and English Champions.
So would you say the Italian League is the toughest?

A national team's performance is not always the true reflection of the nation's league.

That is why club football IMO is more interesting than World tourneys.

My 0.2 cents

Gypsy
17-08-2010, 13:23
What was the achievement of the Spaniards on international scene prior to Euro 08 and WC 2010? Yeah you guessed right. The national team always found a way to lose. So what?


I don't understand why everyone is using Spain as an example. France did same some years back. It goes round in circles. Nothing extraordinary and it has little to do with the league or will you say the French league was the hottest at that time France won the Euros and WC? Because the vast majority of the players who started for Spain play in Spain. The French did not. That is the difference.


The EPL is still the MOST competitive league in the World. Take it or leave.
Your evidence for this is what exactly? It is as competitive as Scotland.



It's fast and furious. Not like the La Liga where you can actually sleep off cos the passing game of theirs can get ridiculous sometimes. Don't get me wrong, it is interesting. I like it. I watch it...(holla Real Madrid) but gosh, EPL rules. Try pub football - it is even faster and more furious.


If the English team played badly due to a weak league (as you say) then what would you say of the Italians? Mind you, an Italian team (yes it is an Italian team because Inter is Italian and if you look into their history, they were made up to be like that...) won the UCL.
A team that trounced the La Liga Champions, German and English Champions.
So would you say the Italian League is the toughest? I have already said what I think of the Italian League.


A national team's performance is not always the true reflection of the nation's league. Never said it was, but England's is. The national team performed as predicted by everyone except the Murdoch cheerleaders.


That is why club football IMO is more interesting than World tourneys.

My 0.2 cents OK. Players disagree. Why is the World Cup the pinnacle of their career, if not?

dontcallme
17-08-2010, 13:46
I think the performance of English teams in the CL over the last 6 years shows the league is strong and Fulham did everyone proud by reaching the final of the Europa.

I've travelled over large parts of the world and everywhere I go I see Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal shirts and memorabilia everywhere as well as sports bars catering for the English PL. I can't say the same for Germany or Italy and in Spain its all about two teams,

Rhubard Geoff
17-08-2010, 14:03
I've travelled over large parts of the world and everywhere I go I see Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal shirts and memorabilia everywhere as well as sports bars catering for the English PL.

That just shows that EPL teams are better at marketing than other leagues, or that maybe Sky TV is better at selling the EPL than other TV companies.

Undoubtedly the EPL is good but I think the point from Gypsy, and it's well made, is that it is not the pinnacle of football achievement. I for one will be paying the Bundesliga some attention this year.

dontcallme
17-08-2010, 14:25
That just shows that EPL teams are better at marketing than other leagues, or that maybe Sky TV is better at selling the EPL than other TV companies.

Undoubtedly the EPL is good but I think the point from Gypsy, and it's well made, is that it is not the pinnacle of football achievement. I for one will be paying the Bundesliga some attention this year.

But these bars do show games from Spain and Germany but the locals don't want to watch it. All the Thais, Malysians and other Asians I spoke to loved the pace and aggressiveness of the PL but found the other leagues slow and dull.

I'm not saying the English PL is the best but there's more to it than merchandising.

Judge
17-08-2010, 14:28
I don't understand the relevance of this; I don't think it explains why the very best go to Italy and Spain.

Top players will always join these two leagues because of the style of the leagues, the pace it's played at attracts different type of players..I would say the more skilled players prefer these two leagues because of the time you have on the ball, being able to express yourself more..




So what? The other games are just as exciting. eg where is the young talent coming through to rival Sergio Canales in England?
It;s been like this for ages now in England, it boils down to the grass roots level..What could be a solution is send the best kids to play for a year or two in Brazil..

:D

You should - for the last 4 years it has been a feast of open attacking football. You saw how Germany played in WC? That was no surprise to anyone who watched the Bundesliga.
I think the Germans even amazed themselves..lol, just kidding... The Germans always raise their game when it comes to big tournaments..







This, I think, is the point.

You do have a point there.I used to try and watch other leagues a few years ago, but most games were boring, just a few top games, like Real Vs Barca..or local derby games...I've tried more than once to watch Italian football, the worse games are Juve vs Milan, too dirty or for a real battle, Inter vs Roma, more like a bloodbath is that game...That's not the football I wanna see..
Gypsy, I'll take your advice and keep an eye on the German league..

Check this out..
last seasons league.

1 Real Madrid 25 +57 77
2 Barcelona 24 +56 77
3 Valencia 30 +16 56


1 Chelsea 33 54 74
2 Man Utd 33 50 72
3 Arsenal 33 41 71
4 Man City 32 24 59


I'm sure it will be the same again in Spain, but in the EPL, soon it will be a 4 horse face..

dontcallme
17-08-2010, 14:32
Top players will always join these two leagues because of the style of the leagues, the pace it's played at attracts different type of players..I would say the more skilled players prefer these two leagues because of the time you have on the ball, being able to express yourself more..




It;s been like this for ages now in England, it boils down to the grass roots level..What could be a solution is send the best kids to play for a year or two in Brazil..

:D

I think the Germans even amazed themselves..lol, just kidding... The Germans always raise their game when it comes to big tournaments..








You do have a point there.I used to try and watch other leagues a few years ago, but most games were boring, just a few top games, like Real Vs Barca..or local derby games...I've tried more than once to watch Italian football, the worse games are Juve vs Milan, too dirty or for a real battle, Inter vs Roma, more like a bloodbath is that game...That's not the football I wanna see..
Gypsy, I'll take your advice and keep an eye on the German league..

Check this out..
last seasons league.

1 Real Madrid 25 +57 77
2 Barcelona 24 +56 77
3 Valencia 30 +16 56


1 Chelsea 33 54 74
2 Man Utd 33 50 72
3 Arsenal 33 41 71
4 Man City 32 24 59


I'm sure it will be the same again in Spain, but in the EPL, soon it will be a 4 horse face..

Sorry I don't understand your league table. Spurs finished 4th. Am I missing something?

Judge
17-08-2010, 14:53
Sorry I don't understand your league table. Spurs finished 4th. Am I missing something?

Right you are..they finished like this..

1 Chelsea (C) 3 86
2 Manchester Unite85
3 Arsenal 75
4 Tottenham Hotspur70


1 Real Madrid 99
2 Barcelona 96
3 Valencia 71

What I posted was during the league, in the EPL nearly to the end there are 4 teams in with a chance for the league..

dontcallme
17-08-2010, 15:03
Right you are..they finished like this..

1 Chelsea (C) 3 86
2 Manchester Unite85
3 Arsenal 75
4 Tottenham Hotspur70


1 Real Madrid 99
2 Barcelona 96
3 Valencia 71

What I posted was during the league, in the EPL nearly to the end there are 4 teams in with a chance for the league..

I see, I wondered why you had team playing 32 games.

martpark
17-08-2010, 15:06
Sorry I don't understand your league table. Spurs finished 4th. Am I missing something?

And Barcelona won La Liga.

Pos. Team Pl W D L GF GA +/- Pts
1 FC Barcelona 38 31 6 1 98 24 74 99
2 Real Madrid 38 31 3 4 102 35 67 96
3 Valencia CF 38 21 8 9 59 40 19 71
4 Sevilla FC 38 19 6 13 65 49 16 63
5 RCD Mallorca 38 18 8 12 59 44 15 62
6

FCBarcelona dominates the Spanish team as they've dominated league football for 2 years. Cesc Fabergas is one of the best players in the world but they wanted the 2 teammates together so he wasn't going to start.

The Italian League is dull with very few Italian stars that's why they were useless at the WC. Inter's star players are from the Spanish league. Germany have some good young players and always do well on the international stage.

The big three leagues are Spanish, Italian and English. The German league is coming on but the Prem. has the dosh so they'll continue to have high quality players.

IGIT
17-08-2010, 17:32
The national team always found a way to lose. So what?
So the English players messed up at the WC? so what?




Because the vast majority of the players who started for Spain play in Spain. The French did not. That is the difference.
Meaning? They have only reached their best effort this year. Care to explain why only now? Afterall most Spanish players have ALWAYS played in Spain.



Your evidence for this is what exactly? It is as competitive as Scotland.
Funny enough, I enjoy the scottish league (at least the TOP matches) but I'd rather spend my time playing badminton than stay up late to watch La Liga. It just doesn't cut it for me.



Try pub football - it is even faster and more furious.
I guess pub football players also go to the world cup and play UCL matches innit?


I have already said what I think of the Italian League.
And what was it?


Never said it was, but England's is. The national team performed as predicted by everyone except the Murdoch cheerleaders.
England performed woefully, so did France, Italy and some others. So what is the BIG deal? At any rate, it doesn't have to do with the league per say. if in England you have the TOP 4, what do you have in Spain, TOP 2?



OK. Players disagree. Why is the World Cup the pinnacle of their career, if not?
Raul is both a Club and Country legend pray tell us how many WC titles he has?
You have to perform well at your club to earn a call into the national team and that is why Club football IT IS!

Carbo
17-08-2010, 22:50
What was the achievement of the Spaniards on international scene prior to Euro 08 and WC 2010? Yeah you guessed right.

I don't understand why everyone is using Spain as an example. France did same some years back. It goes round in circles. Nothing extraordinary and it has little to do with the league or will you say the French league was the hottest at that time France won the Euros and WC?
First, most of the Spanish players play in Spain, most French players play in other leagues. Second, Spain has had the outstanding club side in the world for at least two seasons, founded on players they themselves reared -- rather like Arsenal, but much more successful and all native Spaniards. Third, I notice that these circles you mention coming around do not seem to come back to England, which is rather suggestive. Indeed, the EPL's success, such as it is, in the Champions League, has coincided completely with the introduction of foreign players and managers.

Meantime, why on earth wouldn't you chose Spain as an example? They have probably the best club side in the world, and clearly the best national team, and have done for four years (remember, it started not with the win in the Euro tournament, but the entire tournament, which lasted around two years, and which they utterly dominated. It's indicative of the English mentality that despite our abject failure, we think we have nothing to learn from nations which have had outstanding success.

Of course, a national team is not indicative of the league, but when virtually all the players from that team play in a league, and the other best plyers in the world do, too, it perhaps tells you something, and with Xavi, Inesta and Villa they probably have three of the best seven or eight players in the world. Then you have other players in Spain, like Messi, Ronaldo, Cassillas, who would almost certainly make a top ten, and perhaps one could argue that over two seasons, Ibrahimovich, Puyol and Kaka should be there, too. Carvalho definitely should be.

When you take positions into account, it could be argued that the best ten players in the world play in Spain -- although Drogba might get there, as might Essien.

Look at the top performers in the world cup: Villa, Xavi, Inesta, Oezil, Khadera, Higuain, Forlan -- they're all now playing in Spain.

What is clear, therefore, is that the best players in the world do play in Spain.

The EPL is still the MOST competitive league in the World. Take it or leave.
Really? That's funny, because as far as I can see, it's no more competitive than Spain, Scotland, Italy or others, and is clearly less competitive at the moment than Germany. Man Yoo have utterly dominated, and there is never a season where there is a realistic third challenger for the title into May. It's always between Man Yoo and another which is largely predicted at the start of the season: Chelsea, and before that Arsenal, and before that Newcastle, and before that Blackburn.

Not particularly competitive. Further, for God knows how long until Tottenham managed to crack it last season, the top four have basically been written in stone. Competitive? Really? Just because the two clubs are different, doesn't mean that it isn't two clubs dominating; and the top four are certainly less competitive than almost every league in Europe.

That may change this year, in my view, but you have no historical grounds for your position, unless you go back to pre-premier league days.


It's fast and furious. Not like the La Liga where you can actually sleep off cos the passing game of theirs can get ridiculous sometimes. Don't get me wrong, it is interesting. I like it. I watch it...(holla Real Madrid) but gosh, EPL rules.
Really? I think you must be watching a different game to me, because La Liga is plenty fast. Of course, if you're basing your views on Spain's world cup performance, then yes, but if you watch Barca, or even two mid table teams going at it, then no way. It's less tactical than the Italian league, and teams don't defend as well, perhaps, but it's fast, attacking, terrifically exciting and several notches above the EPL in terms of technique. Barca, for instance, may be famous for their passing, and players of outrageous skill, but what they really do better than anyone else at the moment (and probably since Sacci's Milan) is press the ball. When they don't have it, they press and squeeze more aggressively and faster and higher up the pitch than any team in the world at that level.

I admit that this is a matter of opinion (although the part about technique is not), but the fact you went on about the slow passing leads me to suspect that you don't really watch La Liga and have based your views on the World Cup

I think, however, that beyond this, your view that "fast and furious" is a reason to like a league in and of itself, is egregious. Otherwise, your favourite league would be the Championship, my a mile the best fast and furious league (better than the SPL, anyway).

But it's not, is it? There must be more to it than that, like Fast and furious with quality players, for instance.

You need to refine your view, but once you do, you'll be logically open to the conclusion that other leagues might be better, because fast and furious is the only thing we do better than other leagues, right now, so when you introduce, for instance, "quality players", you might have to concede that other leagues have better quality players, and have lower speed and less ferocity but not as much lower, or less, than the margin by which their better player are better.

If the English team played badly due to a weak league (as you say) then what would you say of the Italians? Mind you, an Italian team (yes it is an Italian team because Inter is Italian and if you look into their history, they were made up to be like that...) won the UCL.
A team that trounced the La Liga Champions, German and English Champions.
So would you say the Italian League is the toughest?
One team maketh not a league. The Italian league is very strong, and unique in style. I enjoy it less these days, because it's no longer clearly the best league in the world, as it was in the late nineties. However, the fact they've won the World Cup recently, and reached a Euro final suggests that they're bringing players through the right way, and coaching properly. Also, they style of the Italian league is much more easily transferable to the international stage than is the EPL's. Those circles we talked about seem to regularly come around to Italy, but not to England.

IGIT
18-08-2010, 12:02
First, most of the Spanish players play in Spain, most French players play in other leagues. Second, Spain has had the outstanding club side in the world for at least two seasons, founded on players they themselves reared -- rather like Arsenal, but much more successful and all native Spaniards.
Yes most Spanish players play in Spain but the question was what was their achievement on international stage prior to the last two recent seasons you mentioned? Why don't you answer the question rather than trying to paint a picture of what does not exist.
Now that they are world beaters and all of a sudden, they are the greatest? Their brand of football is the best?



Third, I notice that these circles you mention coming around do not seem to come back to England, which is rather suggestive. Indeed, the EPL's success, such as it is, in the Champions League, has coincided completely with the introduction of foreign players and managers.
Perhaps you didn't notice but it is the same foreign players and managers that make it so interesting. Would you rather listen to Harry Redknapp's interview or that of Jose M? Would you rather have a Barton in your team or you would go for a Ramirez? Would you rather have Arsene Wenger as your manager or Sam Allardyce?
Talking of circles...it will eventually come back to England. Just watch. That why its in circles. The circle is not complete yet.



Meantime, why on earth wouldn't you chose Spain as an example? They have probably the best club side in the world, and clearly the best national team,
Best club side? You mean Barca? How did you determine that? They got disgraced by the one and only Jose M last season. They needed a certain Tom Overbo to go past Chelsea a season before that. So how did you arrive at this conclusion that they have the best club side eh amigo?


and have done for four years (remember, it started not with the win in the Euro tournament, but the entire tournament, which lasted around two years, and which they utterly dominated. It's indicative of the English mentality that despite our abject failure, we think we have nothing to learn from nations which have had outstanding success.
Dominated? In the group stages they played Sweden, NI, Denmark Latvia Iceland and Liechtenstein. ..goodness!!! and you expected them not to dominate? It would have been a shame if they didn't.
Again I ask prior to this recent years, what did the Spanish achieve?



Of course, a national team is not indicative of the league, but when virtually all the players from that team play in a league, and the other best plyers in the world do, too, it perhaps tells you something, and with Xavi, Inesta and Villa they probably have three of the best seven or eight players in the world. Then you have other players in Spain, like Messi, Ronaldo, Cassillas, who would almost certainly make a top ten, and perhaps one could argue that over two seasons, Ibrahimovich, Puyol and Kaka should be there, too. Carvalho definitely should be.
-Ibra had the best season in his career till date under Jose while at Inter not while in Spain. Get that right.
- Messi is not Spanish but he is the best player in Spain. What has that got to do with the Spanish national team?
-Ronaldo had his best season till date...where? yeah you guessed right, in the EPL.
-The Kaka of today (soon after he got to Spain) is not the same Kaka of Milan or don't you think?



When you take positions into account, it could be argued that the best ten players in the world play in Spain -- although Drogba might get there, as might Essien.
Look at the top performers in the world cup: Villa, Xavi, Inesta, Oezil, Khadera, Higuain, Forlan -- they're all now playing in Spain.
- Villa, Xavi Iniesta I accept.
- Ozil has not kicked a ball in Spain, so that does not count at all.
- Khadera just got there. He has a whole season ahead of him.
- Higuain & Forlan - One of them had a hard time in the EPL.
In my list, I would put Drogba, Lampard, Gerrad, Rooney, Essien, Ashley Cole - They play in the EPL and there you have 6 players.
Both Lampard and Xavi had 14 assists in their respective leagues last season but Lamps scored FAR more goals. As a matter of fact Xavi scored ONLY 6 goals the whole season in all competitions. What does that tell you?
That England had a poor world cup means nada. They have very good players.


What is clear, therefore, is that the best players in the world do play in Spain.
Nothing is clear. Nothing.


Really? That's funny, because as far as I can see, it's no more competitive than Spain, Scotland, Italy or others, and is clearly less competitive at the moment than Germany. Man Yoo have utterly dominated, and there is never a season where there is a realistic third challenger for the title into May. It's always between Man Yoo and another which is largely predicted at the start of the season: Chelsea, and before that Arsenal, and before that Newcastle, and before that Blackburn.
Not particularly competitive. Further, for God knows how long until Tottenham managed to crack it last season, the top four have basically been written in stone. Competitive? Really? Just because the two clubs are different, doesn't mean that it isn't two clubs dominating; and the top four are certainly less competitive than almost every league in Europe.
That may change this year, in my view, but you have no historical grounds for your position, unless you go back to pre-premier league days.
This is very funny. How many challengers do you have in Spain? Only two. It is either Real Madrid or Barca well except if you don't count the occasional blue moons when The Los Che or some other club won it.
Kindly take a look at the La Liga table of last season and see the difference between the first placed team (Barca) and the fourth placed team (Sevilla) - a whooping 36 POINTS!!! And the year before that it was 20!!! And you it is competitive?


Really? I think you must be watching a different game to me, because La Liga is plenty fast. Of course, if you're basing your views on Spain's world cup performance, then yes, but if you watch Barca, or even two mid table teams going at it, then no way. It's less tactical than the Italian league, and teams don't defend as well, perhaps, but it's fast, attacking, terrifically exciting and several notches above the EPL in terms of technique. Barca, for instance, may be famous for their passing, and players of outrageous skill, but what they really do better than anyone else at the moment (and probably since Sacci's Milan) is press the ball. When they don't have it, they press and squeeze more aggressively and faster and higher up the pitch than any team in the world at that level.
Barca play the so called "Total Football" pioneered by Rinus Michels (a Dutchman) but that is not the issue. The issue is this where was Barca for close to 5 seasons or so when Real Madrid was dominating?
La Liga is fast? Xavi can spend close to a minute on the ball before sending a defense splitting pass and that is way tooooooooo long. How do you call that fast?
Try watch Tenerife vs Getafe...nothing spectacular. No drama, no passion. Nothing save the skills.
You say teams don't defend in La Liga meaning more goals were scored?
So how do you then explain this;
2009/10 season
La Liga - 1007 goals scored
EPL- 1003 goals scored

Not by much (4 goals to be exact) for the so called attacking/fast/furious mentality of the La Liga you talked about.



I admit that this is a matter of opinion (although the part about technique is not), but the fact you went on about the slow passing leads me to suspect that you don't really watch La Liga and have based your views on the World Cup
A very WRONG assumption.


I think, however, that beyond this, your view that "fast and furious" is a reason to like a league in and of itself, is egregious. Otherwise, your favourite league would be the Championship, my a mile the best fast and furious league (better than the SPL, anyway). But it's not, is it? There must be more to it than that, like Fast and furious with quality players, for instance.
Precisely because I can't remember stating anywhere that my preference of the EPL is based entirely on the speed (fast and furious).
If I may ask, so why do you prefer the La Liga? Because Ronaldo and Ozil now play there? This is laughable to say the least.



You need to refine your view, but once you do, you'll be logically open to the conclusion that other leagues might be better, because fast and furious is the only thing we do better than other leagues, right now, so when you introduce, for instance, "quality players", you might have to concede that other leagues have better quality players, and have lower speed and less ferocity but not as much lower, or less, than the margin by which their better player are better.
Best quality players? I've stated earlier that your perception is wrong.
-CR9 played in the EPL. In fact it was due to his amazing performance in the EPL that Real Madrid paid a huge amount for him (the highest for any player till date).
- The golden child of Spanish football (Fernando Torres) plays in the EPL,
- Even Messi said he would love to play along side Rooney
- Jose made serious attempts to sign Ashley Cole (who is the best left back in the world) and he like those I mentioned earlier play in the EPL.
- The best right back (Maicon) plays in Italy at least as of today.

So how do you conclude that the best players play in the La Liga.
Again your perception and assumptions are highly flawed.


One team maketh not a league. The Italian league is very strong, and unique in style. I enjoy it less these days, because it's no longer clearly the best league in the world, as it was in the late nineties. However, the fact they've won the World Cup recently, and reached a Euro final suggests that they're bringing players through the right way, and coaching properly. Also, they style of the Italian league is much more easily transferable to the international stage than is the EPL's. Those circles we talked about seem to regularly come around to Italy, but not to England.
It's still in circles because there was a time Ajax was a powerhouse in Europe (and The Dutch could have also won the WC this year), then came the Italians....then Spaniards. That's just the way it works.
The turn of the English will definitely come.

Gypsy
18-08-2010, 12:29
Yes most Spanish players play in Spain but the question was what was their achievement on international stage prior to the last two recent seasons you mentioned? Why don't you answer the question rather than trying to paint a picture of what does not exist.
Now that they are world beaters and all of a sudden, they are the greatest? Their brand of football is the best? He idd answer your question, as did I. Perhaps you should remind yourself of what you actually said?


Best club side? You mean Barca? How did you determine that? They got disgraced by the one and only Jose M last season. They needed a certain Tom Overbo to go past Chelsea a season before that. So how did you arrive at this conclusion that they have the best club side eh amigo? To deny that Barca are the best club side in the world is simply perverse. They won 5 Trophies a season ago. Five. Yes Jose M did a number on them, and they lost over 2 legs in a Cup Competition. It doesn't alter how good they are. Not really.



Dominated? In the group stages they played Sweden, NI, Denmark Latvia Iceland and Liechtenstein. ..goodness!!! and you expected them not to dominate? It would have been a shame if they didn't.
Again I ask prior to this recent years, what did the Spanish achieve? why is it relevant? As already said they used to find ways to screw up in major tournaments - so what?



-Ibra had the best season in his career till date under Jose while at Inter not while in Spain. Get that right.
- Messi is not Spanish but he is the best player in Spain. What has that got to do with the Spanish national team?
-Ronaldo had his best season till date...where? yeah you guessed right, in the EPL.
-The Kaka of today (soon after he got to Spain) is not the same Kaka of Milan or don't you think?
None of this has anything at all to do with what Carbo wrote and it all argues against your position.

The best players in the world choose to play in Spain because it is the best league in the world. Fact.


- Villa, Xavi Iniesta I accept.
- Ozil has not kicked a ball in Spain, so that does not count at all.
- Khadera just got there. He has a whole season ahead of him.
- Higuain & Forlan - One of them had a hard time in the EPL. No Ozil and Khedira just proved themselves in the World Cup - destroying England and Argentina in case you have forgotten.



In my list, I would put Drogba, Lampard, Gerrad, Rooney, Essien, Ashley Cole - They play in the EPL and there you have 6 players. Absolutely laughable. You have just seen during the World Cup that Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney and Cole are not world class players. None came anywhere near selection for the Top team or even second teams of the tournament. Only Drogba and I am open to persuasion on Essien, would get into any world team - unless picked by an englishman who doesn't watch foreign football.

You mentioned Germany as a surprise - they were not to anyone who watched the Bundesliga. I picked them before the World Cup, to win it based solely on having watched Bundesliga football over the last few years. the quality was there for anyone with 2 eyes to see. It was no surprise.



This is very funny. How many challengers do you have in Spain? Only two. It is either Real Madrid or Barca well except if you don't count the occasional blue moons when The Los Che or some other club won it.
Kindly take a look at the La Liga table of last season and see the difference between the first placed team (Barca) and the fourth placed team (Sevilla) - a whooping 36 POINTS!!! And the year before that it was 20!!! And you it is competitive? Same as EPL. One of 2 teams will win it. The rest of the matches are usually exciting with attacking football and great technique. You cannot say that about the EPL.



Barca play the so called "Total Football" pioneered by Rinus Michels (a Dutchman) but that is not the issue. Really?


The issue is this where was Barca for close to 5 seasons or so when Real Madrid was dominating?
La Liga is fast? Xavi can spend close to a minute on the ball before sending a defense splitting pass and that is way tooooooooo long. How do you call that fast? Total bullsh1t.



Try watch Tenerife vs Getafe...nothing spectacular. No drama, no passion. Nothing save the skills. As is this.



Best quality players? I've stated earlier that your perception is wrong.
-CR9 played in the EPL. In fact it was due to his amazing performance in the EPL that Real Madrid paid a huge amount for him (the highest for any player till date). And he went so that he could play in the best league in the world.


- The golden child of Spanish football (Fernando Torres) plays in the EPL, For reasons of politics and money as much as anything. From Atletico it is hard to go anywhere else in Spain. The only clubs who could afford his wages ex Barca and Real, are outside Spain. It proves nothing. He did not come because the EPL is the best league in the world - only the english call it that.


- Even Messi said he would love to play along side Rooney So what?

- Jose made serious attempts to sign Ashley Cole (who is the best left back in the world) and he like those I mentioned earlier play in the EPL. He has a history of buying players he knows and has worked with before. Please apply your own argument above re Oezil to Cole. be consistent.


- The best right back (Maicon) plays in Italy at least as of today. Indeed. Your point is what? he does want to go to Spain. But this only supports what I said earlier about the best players wanting to play in Spain and Italy. The EPL has typically picked up foreign stars - like Ballack - wanting a big payday at the end of their careers.


So how do you conclude that the best players play in the La Liga. Because you have just established that the vast majority - bar 2 or 3 - do.

IGIT
18-08-2010, 13:31
He idd answer your question, as did I. Perhaps you should remind yourself of what you actually said?

LOLROFL: hahaha! That French players don't play in France don't mean nada. That's not the answer to my question.
I ask again, prior to these recent successes achieved, what was their pedigree on international scene?


To deny that Barca are the best club side in the world is simply perverse. They won 5 Trophies a season ago. Five. Yes Jose M did a number on them, and they lost over 2 legs in a Cup Competition. It doesn't alter how good they are. Not really.
Had Jose stayed with Inter, I'm more than 100% certain that he would have repeated the same feat. No biggies. They are the best yet got trounced?
It's like saying, you are the youngest/best in a cl**** yet you found another someone younger/better than you in your class. Then by no means, you are no longer the youngest. You are no longer the best. Inter is the BEST team in Europe as of today. FACT!


why is it relevant? As already said they used to find ways to screw up in major tournaments - so what?
Then I replied, England screwed up, so what?
It is excusable for the Spanish national team to screw up in major tournaments but the English don't have the right to same?



None of this has anything at all to do with what Carbo wrote and it all argues against your position.
The best players in the world choose to play in Spain because it is the best league in the world. Fact.
No Ozil and Khedira just proved themselves in the World Cup - destroying England and Argentina in case you have forgotten.
How is that? Remind me please, are both Ozil and Khedira Spanish?
How many league matches has Ozil and Khedira played in La Liga?
It may come as a surprise but it is a FACT that these players are flying to Spain because of the Jose factor. Nothing more, nothing less.
Mind you, a certain country called Switzerland beat Spain in case you have forgotten.


Absolutely laughable. You have just seen during the World Cup that Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney and Cole are not world class players. None came anywhere near selection for the Top team or even second teams of the tournament. Only Drogba and I am open to persuasion on Essien, would get into any world team - unless picked by an englishman who doesn't watch foreign football.
Please define world class or cut the crap. They had a miserable WC. What is news there? Lamps as I stated for you and completed backed up with stats that he (Lamps) supercedes Xavi in terms of assists and goals for their clubs.
If Rooney was bad, how come Messi talked of playing with him? The lad was RED HOT prior to his injury.
Why base the performance of a player(s) purely on a one month tournament? That is perverse.
I asked you this question earlier but you dodged answering it...
Raul is both a club and country legend without a WC medal. Tell me, is he a lesser player to Villa?


You mentioned Germany as a surprise - they were not to anyone who watched the Bundesliga. I picked them before the World Cup, to win it based solely on having watched Bundesliga football over the last few years. the quality was there for anyone with 2 eyes to see. It was no surprise.
I mentioned Germany? When? you sure? What you smoking?


Same as EPL. One of 2 teams will win it. The rest of the matches are usually exciting with attacking football and great technique. You cannot say that about the EPL.
Maybe one of the two will win it, but the gulf in points and class between the TOP four teams in La Liga is as big as the Itaipu Dam.


Really?
So what brand does Barca play if not Total football? Kick and follow?
Or you didn't know the total football was pioneered by a Dutch man? which is it?


Total bullsh1t.
lack of knowledge of the game you mean?


As is this.
same as as above


And he went so that he could play in the best league in the world.
LOL!. Yes he went on the play in the "best" league in the world after he has won everything in club football and guess where he achieved that? Yeah in the EPL so what is your point? He had his best season so far in the EPL and until then he is still a "product" of the EPL.


For reasons of politics and money as much as anything. From Atletico it is hard to go anywhere else in Spain. The only clubs who could afford his wages ex Barca and Real, are outside Spain. It proves nothing. He did not come because the EPL is the best league in the world - only the english call it that.
And who calls the La Liga the best in the world? The Spaniards or people like you? Absolute nonsense.
So you are saying he came because of money?


So what?
As usual when you have nothing to say, you say so what? pathetic or don't you think?


He has a history of buying players he knows and has worked with before. Please apply your own argument above re Oezil to Cole. be consistent.
Pot calling kettle black.
I'm always consistent and backed it up with stats. If Ashley Cole is bad (because according to you, the EPL is crap, and so are the English players), why would Jose want him knowing fully well that he plays in the EPL and he is English. Ozil is yet to play under Jose and I was being consistent by saying Ozil et all are flooding to Real because of the Jose factor. Certainly not because of the League. Pronto.


Indeed. Your point is what? he does want to go to Spain. But this only supports what I said earlier about the best players wanting to play in Spain and Italy. The EPL has typically picked up foreign stars - like Ballack - wanting a big payday at the end of their careers.
Because you have just established that the vast majority - bar 2 or 3 - do.
Again, he wants to go to Spain because of Jose.
Why did he not ask for a transfer last season to Spain?
I mentioned 6 players that will make the first 11 of any team.
If only you will read between the lines that a national teams performance is not always a true reflection of its league.
I remember some years back, TH14 was ruling the EPL yet he couldn't perform for the national side...He was so good that Barca came for him? does that mean he is not a good player or that the EPL is wack?

That you don't like something don't mean it is not good. Get some perspective.
This is not an English country but yet can you compare the number of people who watch the La Liga and the premier league?
If the Barclays was that crappy, why are the channels of the world falling over each other to get the rights to air it?
It is marketable, it is profitable, it is interesting, fast, furious, entertaining and full of drama and that is why we love it. :piano:

Gypsy
18-08-2010, 13:47
I don't understand why everyone is using Spain as an example. France did same some years back. It goes round in circles. Nothing extraordinary and it has little to do with the league or will you say the French league was the hottest at that time France won the Euros and WC?


We are doing it because YOU wrote this above.

You introduced the linkage between winning the WC and the domestic league - so we are pointing out the fallacy in your argument, which is that the vast majority of Spain's players play in Spain - the exact opposite to France. So on the one hand you could make the claim that winning the WC shows how strong the league is, Spain, and on the other, France, you could not because most players played outside France.

waxyweller
18-08-2010, 15:04
Chelsea rocks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WE RULE !!:12115::12115::12115::12115::12115::12115::12115:

Judge
19-08-2010, 00:56
To deny that Barca are the best club side in the world is simply perverse. They won 5 Trophies a season ago. Five. Yes Jose M did a number on them, and they lost over 2 legs in a Cup Competition. It doesn't alter how good they are. Not really.

There's no denying that Barca are a great team, the way they play is awesome.....but for me Inter are the best team right now and the team to beat In Europe.What Inter did last season was phenomenal,to win the treble is any club and fans dream...
You know, the game which was the most satisfying of the treble for many Inter fans was winning the Coppa Italia vs Roma (I know this because my mate is a big Inter fan and goes on Inter forums).. The final was against Roma at the Olympic stadium,i'm sure you have read about all the stabbings that goes on when teams visit Roma..That game is called the battle of Rome, on and off the pitch..Totti's sending off says it all..

YouTube- ROMA-INTER 0-1 FALLACCIO DI TOTTI A BALOTELLI GLI TAGLIA LE GAMBE FALLO DA ROSSO
There was so much crap surronding the Barca - Inter game last season..Barca fans went to Inter's hotel and started banging on drums, letting off fireworks and yelling abuse at Inter players early in the morning..Police were called but they turned up 2 hrs later, not to stop the Barca fans but to take eto'o away.

http://forums.goal.com/showthread.php?t=6644

Barca were really scared of facing Inter, it was for a very good reason..

Inter are also on course to win 5 trophies in a year

Gypsy
28-08-2010, 06:01
Proof that the EPL is not the most competitive league in Europe - far from it in fact. Jonathon Wilson provides the facts and figures.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jonathan_wilson/08/24/epl.observations/index.html?xid=twitter_share

martpark
28-08-2010, 12:36
Proof that the EPL is not the most competitive league in Europe - far from it in fact. Jonathon Wilson provides the facts and figures.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/jonathan_wilson/08/24/epl.observations/index.html?xid=twitter_share

Competitive is relative look at the Spanish examples he gave. He says La Liga is more competitive then the Prem yet at the end says the English league might end up looking like La Liga where 2 teams compete for the title, so in fact not so competitive. And really it's been that way in Spain for 60 years, which is not true in England. You could also say points totals in the Italian league are off because of refereeing scandals.

Even if the Prem. is lacking competition, it is still more exciting than watching Serie A or La Liga in general because the lesser matches in those leagues are just that. Poor crowds in Spain show that lesser teams to not make attractive football.

martpark
28-08-2010, 12:44
There's no denying that Barca are a great team, the way they play is awesome.....but for me Inter are the best team right now and the team to beat In Europe.What Inter did last season was phenomenal,to win the treble is any club and fans dream...
You know, the game which was the most satisfying of the treble for many Inter fans was winning the Coppa Italia vs Roma (I know this because my mate is a big Inter fan and goes on Inter forums).. The final was against Roma at the Olympic stadium,i'm sure you have read about all the stabbings that goes on when teams visit Roma..That game is called the battle of Rome, on and off the pitch..Totti's sending off says it all..

YouTube- ROMA-INTER 0-1 FALLACCIO DI TOTTI A BALOTELLI GLI TAGLIA LE GAMBE FALLO DA ROSSO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jehNMZ0BHCs)
There was so much crap surronding the Barca - Inter game last season..Barca fans went to Inter's hotel and started banging on drums, letting off fireworks and yelling abuse at Inter players early in the morning..Police were called but they turned up 2 hrs later, not to stop the Barca fans but to take eto'o away.

http://forums.goal.com/showthread.php?t=6644

Barca were really scared of facing Inter, it was for a very good reason..

Inter are also on course to win 5 trophies in a year

Well, make that 4 trophies as Atleti won last night.

The Inter-Barca thing happens everywhere. Italians fans are not known for their high-degree of fair play. Ask Balotelli. Also I think Barca were disallowed a legitimate goal at the end of the match if memory serves me well.

martpark
31-08-2010, 01:03
YouTube- In the Know: Tottenham Transfer Exclusive!

Gypsy
31-08-2010, 09:06
YouTube- In the Know: Tottenham Transfer Exclusive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLjwRuOoakI&feature=player_embedded#)!

Brilliant Mart - thanks.