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Gypsy
02-08-2010, 11:33
What do you think are the biggest problems facing Russia which are preventing progress being made?

For my two penny worth I would say the biggest threats are corruption and bureaucracy.

Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy, no innovative economy can appear.

Strider
02-08-2010, 11:44
biggest problems facing Russia? probably Russian people themselves

trancophile
02-08-2010, 11:56
The way I see it the government are a bunch of useless bastards that don't give a care for Russians. They are all talk and no action. When they do try to offer its people assistance in some way, they do it far below their means and never absolutely. They give the impression that they care, but always fall short of proper success. They have their priorities wrong in that they are too fixated with making money, and for what end? They never put enough of it back into the people.

The state is like a parent and the state's population like it's children, however infinately dependent. The state must be a good parent and if it isn't, it will be judged by other parents or states of other countries as neglectful and just an overall bad parent.

Yes, the children (population) of the state have a responsiblity to make a stand and represent themselves as a collective and as indivduals, however the Russian state make it challenging to do so. A most recent example of this is Article 31. Moreover, the state needs to lead by example and take control, but in a way that leads to prosperity and lawfulness for the people as a whole first and foremost.Russia needs some really strict measures to attain a shift in mentality and a increase in social trust. How can people trust each other when the state cannot be trusted themselves? This won't be easy, but I see it as a moral obligation of the state to help achieve this. It is then, that a lot of the stubborness and apathy of the people here will disapate and progress can begin.

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 11:57
biggest problems facing Russia? probably Russian people themselves

How so? In what way are they the problem?

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 12:17
My take on it is that it is related to Orthodoxy, and although I haven't really looked into it, Latin American Catholic countries also seem to fit this bill.

It seems that in Orthodoxy, and Catholicism, unlike Protestants, people should pray to Saints, and pay them tribute in or form or another, which in turn are able to work on your behalf with God.

In this context, it only makes sense that you would apply this to real life, and pay money or tribute to people that can help "solve" your problem, without directly going to the person in charge.

Also, in Orthodoxy, we can see that "suffering" is a part of life, and that nothing is easy, and the "suffering" (always without complaining) is to be rewarded in the Afterlife. This is slightly different than in Catholicism, as Catholics usually have pews to sit on.

One time, a group of Russians were having a discussion on animals/pets.

The topics were - de-clawing and neutering or spaying.

80% of the group took the position that it was not only inhumane to de-claw a cat, but that God had made the cat that way, and who were we to take away what God had given them. Also, the same idea with reproductive rights for cats/dogs. Why should we not only pay money to deny them this "right" but, again, who were we to play God?

I was blown away, since my position was - but - you don't want your cat to have kittens, do you? And why would you want your nice couch or curtains ruined? (since you don't allow your cat to go outside anyways)

Etc, etc....

Not to say that Orthodoxy is bad. Or Catholicism. These were just my observations.

trancophile
02-08-2010, 12:24
xSnoofovich:

I've noticed this. I think that what you have mentioned can help to explain the Russian mentality and help to overcome what I perceive this to be, a real barrier to progress.

Strider
02-08-2010, 12:25
How so? In what way are they the problem?

I think that whatever happens in any country depends only on people who live in the country... not it's geographical location, natural resources, climate and etc, only people matter

and if Russia constantly faces problems, there has to be something really wrong with us, with our culture, mentality

I guess there are a lot of good people (who probably want to leave the country), but if you take the whole population in general - there's really something wrong out here

and there's actually a saying that no foreign enemy has ever done more harm to Russia than Russians themselves

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 12:31
depends only on people who live in the country...

The fruit of the ideology is reflected in society.

Voodoo
02-08-2010, 12:32
I have to agree that the problem starts with the narod (the people) themselves. Why is their so much corruption? Why don't the powers that be give a rat's @rse about their own people? Why does ZAO Kremlin enrich itself at the expense of all others? Why is there less and less democracy with each passing year? Because the narod lets them get away with it. Trancophile and xSnoofovich are absolutely correct.

Fundamentally ZAO Kremlin is behaving rationally and predictably. They are looking out for their own interests (along with the other 1 million civil disservants in this great country) and will logically do this to the extent that the narod will legally let them get away with it. Why would they act any different?

If am a GIAshnik on a small salary and could legally get away with shaking down motorists, and in fact am encouraged to do so by my colleagues, why would I do anything different and jeapordise my family's well being?

And this very nicely feeds into the question of who is Enemy No.1 for ZAO Kremlin. Not the Americans, or the Europeans, or even Martians. No, its the people themselves. So lets curtail democracy, lets ensure that courts don't work, control the media, ban any sort of 'protests'. What? They are protesting those thing called the internet? Well, lets control that too (current draft law on controlling ISPs and the Russian internet).

Strider
02-08-2010, 12:38
speaking about religion... I'm not a religious person, although I was baptized in childhood... and my brother also baptized his kids few years ago, so I was invited to go to church with them... and after hearing the pope I decided not to wear cross anymore

I really hate what happens now, when the church gets more and more our life

and hundred years ago, during revolutions and civil war, there must have been serious reasons for people to burn down churches...

so orthodox church can be considered as one of the problems that Russia faces I think...

ReallyGreatConcerts
02-08-2010, 12:39
What do you think are the biggest problems facing Russia which are preventing progress being made?

For my two penny worth I would say the biggest threats are corruption and bureaucracy.

Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy, no innovative economy can appear.

They are the biggest problems preventing Russia from cloning an economy like the one - for example - in which Bear Stears and Lehmann Brothers turned out to have created billions of dollars in entirely fictional money.

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 12:42
so orthodox church can be considered as one of the problems that Russia faces I think...

There are more religions than Orthodoxy in Russia though. So, I wouldn't say that that is just the main problem.

Probably, another major problem was that for 40-50-100 years, all of the inventative, entrepreneurial, reformers, or overly loud vocal people were either expatriated, shipped off to gulags, deported, shot, or killed in war.

Surely that also has to have a major impact on society.

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 12:43
They are the biggest problems preventing Russia from cloning an economy like the one - for example - in which Bear Stears and Lehmann Brothers turned out to have created billions of dollars in entirely fictional money.

You think it is corruption and bureaucracy that are preventing that? How? It is a genuine question btw - I'm interested in how they could prevent a financial bubble like that.

alouette
02-08-2010, 12:44
biggest problems facing Russia? probably Russian people themselves

Hilarious! Indeed, no people, no problem!

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 12:47
You think it is corruption and bureaucracy that are preventing that? How? It is a genuine question btw - I'm interested in how they could prevent a financial bubble like that.

All I heard him say was - Buzzword, buzzword, buzzword, buzzword.

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 12:55
Probably, the easiest answer to the question is simply this.

The largest problem facing Russia today is the lack of a true middle class.

Corruption will always be in * ANY * society, as that is man's nature. So will bureaucracy, as basically, government money is * FREE * money for the people in the government.

But, the creation of a true and prosperous nation-wide middle class would allieviate many of the problems in Russia today.

MickeyTong
02-08-2010, 12:56
I don't lnow how these would apply to Russia, but they're interesting, anyway.

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Oskorbinka
02-08-2010, 13:05
There are more religions than Orthodoxy in Russia though. So, I wouldn't say that that is just the main problem.

Probably, another major problem was that for 40-50-100 years, all of the inventative, entrepreneurial, reformers, or overly loud vocal people were either expatriated, shipped off to gulags, deported, shot, or killed in war.

Surely that also has to have a major impact on society.

Good point! I totally agree!
There is no future for that kind of people even now in Russia. Everybody, who is on top now, is just thief or gangster..
Maybe the main problem is a large territory which is hard to control..

tvadim133
02-08-2010, 13:18
Hight level of Bureaucracy is the main problem.

and It was the main problem always (since the 18th century).

No other, believe me!

Bureaucracy leads to other issues connected with middle class development, corruption and so on.

When there are too many rules, orders, papers needed, it leads to corruption.

Bureaucracy is a barrier for anything, and if case you want to overcome it, you need: 1. spend too much time for nothing or to pay bribes in order to achieve smth fast and efficiently

Besides, Bureaucracy is "the closed" system, in the environment of which it is too easy for chinovnikies to follow first of all their own interests; to control everything.

tvadim133
02-08-2010, 13:20
xSnoofovich:

I've noticed this. I think that what you have mentioned can help to explain the Russian mentality and help to overcome what I perceive this to be, a real barrier to progress.

What is the russian mentality then?

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 13:23
Scenarios for the Future of Technology and International Development
(Not Russian related, however)


http://www.rockefellerfoundation.org/uploads/files/bba493f7-cc97-4da3-add6-3deb007cc719.pdf

Ian G
02-08-2010, 13:24
I can think of three problems, from which many other problems flow:

1 The belief that Russia is a great country, (or the greatest country, no other country can do what Russia has done, there is something unique and great and mysterious about the Russian soul, etc).
2 The belief that ordinary people are not important- that the individual is nothing, the State is everything. Or as Mayakovsky wrote:"Партия —рука миллионопалая, сжатая в один громящий кулак. Единица — вздор, единица — ноль"
3 The belief that the natural world, the environment, everthing that is on the land or under it, or in or under the sea is a "natural resource" and that it exists for humans. And therefore, (because of 2 above), it exists for the State.

Sadly these ways of thinking exist in many countries with a totalitarian past/ present. But they are expecially present in Russia.

Matt24
02-08-2010, 13:27
I think the greatest challenge to the future success and development of Russia is the continuing influence of the the two and a half generations born after the second world war and before 1991, I think these people are shell shocked - the ones who benefited (both massively and on a more moderate scale) from the collapse of communism, can't believe their luck and are ridiculously paranoid about letting anybody else share in it, and the ones who lost so much, including the twin faiths that: the Soviet Union was really at the cutting edge of cultural and economic development, and; Mother Russia would always look after them if they toed the line.

Russia is faced with fatalism on a grand scale, for the lucky who have benefited, their mantra is 'what's the point of doing things the right way / the legal way if every other bastard is going to break the rules?'; and for the less fortunate 'what's the point, if all the results of your hard work can be snatched away? The generation of people in charge are infecting their sons and daughters with the same 'what's the point attitude' leading to a society that has no real interest in developing a true and fair 'rule of law' - without 'rule of law' in terms of things such as 'copyright protection' enforceable IP - those Russian entrepreneurs and inventors bright enough to climb to the top of the 'new economy pile' are doing it in Biotech bay and silicon Valley - I don't think it's any surprise that Russia does not yet have something like the Bangalore campus, encouraging indigenous entrepreneurs.

I am of an age and have been here long enough, to have seen a great many of the movers and shakers of the early 1990's retire in their 40's, sell up and get out. Without a single exception - my chums never trusted their employees to take proper executive control of their businesses, and never developed bench strength in the middle management, nearly every one of them has sent their kids to one of the US / UK / Australia or Israel for education, with a view not to have them return with new found skills to develop the economy of the Motherland, but to learn how to fit in in western economies and never have to put up with the crap that their parents went through.

The greatest challenge to Russia is to develop an adequately paid law making and law enforcing structure that will allow, the passionate, the patriotic, and the brilliant to step away from the eternal spiral of 'what's the point trying to change anything?', which leads to the continuance of corruption and a steady bleeding off of the brightest and most hopeful.

Matt

ReallyGreatConcerts
02-08-2010, 13:32
and It was the main problem always (since the 18th century).
.

And in the C18th/C19th Russia had the greatest Empire on earth :)

Most criticisms I notice here are because Russia "fails" to conform to the idealised notions other countries have of "success".

But the Russian methodology is focussed on quick'n'dirty solutions which fix problems faster.

Perhaps those who criticise "corruption" in Russia can point us to a country where the main banks haven't collapsed after proving to be crooks? Where there isn't a billion-dollar war going on to support some jews?

Pointing at "faults" in Russia is usually a neat way of "congratulating" ourselves and deluding ourselves that our countries are "better".

tvadim133
02-08-2010, 13:33
I can think of three problems, from which many other problems flow:

1 The belief that Russia is a great country, (or the greatest country, no other country can do what Russia has done, there is something unique and great and mysterious about the Russian soul, etc).
2 The belief that ordinary people are not important- that the individual is nothing, the State is everything. Or as Mayakovsky wrote:"Партия —рука миллионопалая, сжатая в один громящий кулак. Единица — вздор, единица — ноль"
3 The belief that the natural world, the environment, everthing that is on the land or under it, or in or under the sea is a "natural resource" and that it exists for humans. And therefore, (because of 2 above), it exists for the State.

Sadly these ways of thinking exist in many countries with a totalitarian past/ present. But they are expecially present in Russia.

That is quite a communist idea, which was promoted for 70 years here!

It does not work now, though the idea that Russia is a great country is still popular.

There is nothing bad or good, that is just a sence of "partiotism".

Why not?

French are proud of their culture, Brits (I hope) are as well, even Americans are.

But it does not make them think (I hope) that their countries are unique and superior.

Russian do not think so, it is out of the question, we are quite curious about others and it is good and helps us to understand and to compare ours as well.

trancophile
02-08-2010, 13:40
Nice elucidation there Matt. Quite right indeed.

You can understand why Russia can't be divorced from revolution. It needs another one perhaps. We should not have to hold a gun to each other's heads to get anything done here.

Russia is obsessed with nostalgia. It is constantly lamenting the fact that it used to be the best at many things. Just look at the outcome of Russia's poor perfomance in the recent winter Olympics. It's time to acknowledge that old habits died hard and there's no time for them to if Russia wants to reclaim respect and positive status in the world!

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 13:40
And in the C18th/C19th Russia had the greatest Empire on earth :)

Most criticisms I notice here are because Russia "fails" to conform to the idealised notions other countries have of "success".

But the Russian methodology is focussed on quick'n'dirty solutions which fix problems faster.

Perhaps those who criticise "corruption" in Russia can point us to a country where the main banks haven't collapsed after proving to be crooks? Where there isn't a billion-dollar war going on to support some jews?

Pointing at "faults" in Russia is usually a neat way of "congratulating" ourselves and deluding ourselves that our countries are "better".

Ok - much of that may well be true, and in the case of your last point, sad and pathetic too - but Russia is in the process of modernisation, and I wondered what posters thought the obstacles to that were. Most of us live, work and pay taxes here so it is relevant

I am quite happy to take part in a "What is wrong with the UK or France etc thread" if you want to start one. Can't help with the USA though.

tvadim133
02-08-2010, 13:46
And in the C18th/C19th Russia had the greatest Empire on earth :)

Most criticisms I notice here are because Russia "fails" to conform to the idealised notions other countries have of "success".

But the Russian methodology is focussed on quick'n'dirty solutions which fix problems faster.

Perhaps those who criticise "corruption" in Russia can point us to a country where the main banks haven't collapsed after proving to be crooks? Where there isn't a billion-dollar war going on to support some jews?

Pointing at "faults" in Russia is usually a neat way of "congratulating" ourselves and deluding ourselves that our countries are "better".

It was!

But it is not because of bureaucracy! :)

Finance system and corruption are diffirenet topics actually.

Russia is a very good in overwhelming battles situations due to directive style of management.

But it does not work, when development is needed (it harms initiatives).

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 13:48
Can't help with the USA though.

That is because * NOTHING * is wrong with the USA !

Every country should be like the USA :)

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 13:49
1 The belief that Russia is a great country, (or the greatest country, no other country can do what Russia has done, there is something unique

Russia is part of the G-8. That is something to be proud of. And it makes it unique !

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 14:02
That is because * NOTHING * is wrong with the USA !

Every country should be like the USA :)

Never having been there I am unable to comment.

I will be back
02-08-2010, 14:04
Bureaucracy and corruption are the same problems, if there is one, there is another.

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 14:05
Never having been there I am unable to comment.

Despite what Willy says, it is a great place :)

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 14:09
Despite what Willy says, it is a great place :)

Without getting too far off topic - I can believe that based on the American friends I have in France and here.

Willy
02-08-2010, 14:16
Those were great Mickey, the second one hit the nail on the head.

This one is good too.


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Willy
02-08-2010, 14:43
What makes people from the west think that there are so much better than people in Russia and can tell them what they should do?

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Voodoo
02-08-2010, 14:52
What makes people from the west think that there are so much better than people in Russia and can tell them what they should do?



So the fact that people in more 'advanced' countries live longer, are richer and more prosperous, have better healthcare, better education, cleaner environments, more democracy and choices in life are immaterial? In fact all of those things that Russia itself aspires to?

Again, if Russia wishes to aspire to the commanding heights of DR Congo and Mongolia then there would be much of an issue. However, Russia (at least as represented by the leaders of ZAO Kremlin) is aiming firmly at taking its rightful place amongst the community of great nations. If that is the case then there are specific reasons why advanced countries are in actual fact called 'advanced'.

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 15:00
What makes people from the west think that there are so much better than people in Russia and can tell them what they should do?



Who is doing that?

alouette
02-08-2010, 15:35
Any solutions for the acute problems of Russia?

annasophia
02-08-2010, 15:42
My take on it is that it is related to Orthodoxy, and although I haven't really looked into it, Latin American Catholic countries also seem to fit this bill.

It seems that in Orthodoxy, and Catholicism, unlike Protestants, people should pray to Saints, and pay them tribute in or form or another, which in turn are able to work on your behalf with God.

In this context, it only makes sense that you would apply this to real life, and pay money or tribute to people that can help "solve" your problem, without directly going to the person in charge.

Also, in Orthodoxy, we can see that "suffering" is a part of life, and that nothing is easy, and the "suffering" (always without complaining) is to be rewarded in the Afterlife. This is slightly different than in Catholicism, as Catholics usually have pews to sit on.



Yes, I can understand how you would draw these correlations between the belief that both church and state are higher authorities which essentially relieve the common man from from responsibility for his own actions, but I thoroughly disagree that the Russian Orthodox church is part of the current Russian problem.

Although historically rather parasitical (as all churches are) I lean more toward thinking that the Russian church may be the only resource available on the road to solving some of Russia's current problems.

It is my observation that a very very large problem with the Russian people is a lack of faith in each other, and a severe dearth of charity and mercy. That Russian moral values (and values are the very bedrock of civilization) have no home and no teacher. I believe that in all of Moscow there is ONE soup kitchen? I recently read that the ONLY women's shelter in St. Petersburg, which housed merely 30 or so battered women just closed for lack of funding.

Russians woefully mistrust their fellow citizens and have no moral compass for Kindness, compassion, charity, piety, humility, trust, and forgiveness. These values are traditionally the landscape of the church. Religion teaches these values to the people and often organizes missions of charity and help for those in need. When sovietism declared war on, and crushed the Russian Orthodox church, it removed the moral compass from the people. They never learned how to be kind and charitable and committed. The teacher was executed.

The result nearly 100 years later, is a vast disparate country with no cohesive social values; no respect for each other, no trust, and no kindness. This has certainly bred a culture of extreme corruption, where no one is interested in the well being of anyone but themselves and their immediate family members. I get mine and kick the other guy in the pants before he takes it away from me.

The Russian Orthodox church is capable of mending this spirit of dis-community, and putting the society on a gentler path of kinship and faith which will go a long way toward solving the deep rooted problems of mistrust which permeates every corner of life and business in Russia.

The church is part of the solution this time. I am convinced of it.

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 15:45
Computerizing GAI would be a great start. And paying fines thru official channels. And raising police pay in general so it would be an honorable job, and not one step up from private security. (ie; be able to attract people that are from outside the army)

Raising salaries for city workers, while simultaneously holding them accountable for customer service, and making sure that their budgets went 100% into public works, and projects, and those projects have results.

Bringing back sabotnic - instilling pride in the community again. A little paint on many of the old (living) buildings would do wonders visually, as well as raise the morale of the people living in the area.

Not accept excuses. I know it's cold in Russia. It is also cold in Canada and Norway, yet somehow - they seem to have functional roads.


I guess we will see all of this happen in Sochi in 2014 though, which means that it * IS * possible in Russia, once some of the higher ups care.

trancophile
02-08-2010, 15:45
Overthrow the Kremlin. :fireworks:

ReallyGreatConcerts
02-08-2010, 15:46
You think it is corruption and bureaucracy that are preventing that? How? It is a genuine question btw - I'm interested in how they could prevent a financial bubble like that.

No. Clearly the collapse of these crooks was the result of corruption.

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 15:49
Yes, I can understand how you would draw these correlations between the belief that both church and state are higher authorities which essentially relieve the common man from from responsibility for his own actions, but I thoroughly disagree that the Russian Orthodox church is part of the current Russian problem.

Although historically rather parasitical (as all churches are) I lean more toward thinking that the Russian church may be the only resource available on the road to solving some of Russia's current problems.

It is my observation that a very very large problem with the Russian people is a lack of faith in each other, and a severe dearth of charity and mercy. That Russian moral values (and values are the very bedrock of civilization) have no home and no teacher. I believe that in all of Moscow there is ONE soup kitchen? I recently read that the ONLY women's shelter in St. Petersburg, which housed merely 30 or so battered women just closed for lack of funding.

Russians woefully mistrust their fellow citizens and have no moral compass for Kindness, compassion, charity, piety, humility, trust, and forgiveness. These values are traditionally the landscape of the church. Religion teaches these values to the people and often organizes missions of charity and help for those in need. When sovietism declared war on, and crushed the Russian Orthodox church, it removed the moral compass from the people. They never learned how to be kind and charitable and committed. The teacher was executed.

The result nearly 100 years later, is a vast disparate country with no cohesive social values; no respect for each other, no trust, and no kindness. This has certainly bred a culture of extreme corruption, where no one is interested in the well being of anyone but themselves and their immediate family members. I get mine and kick the other guy in the pants before he takes it away from me.

The Russian Orthodox church is capable of mending this spirit of dis-community, and putting the society on a gentler path of kinship and faith which will go a long way toward solving the deep rooted problems of mistrust which permeates every corner of life and business in Russia.

The church is part of the solution this time. I am convinced of it.

Well said.

Willy
02-08-2010, 15:49
What do you think are the biggest problems facing Russia which are preventing progress being made?

For my two penny worth I would say the biggest threats are corruption and bureaucracy.

Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy, no innovative economy can appear.



^ You are, that's who.

Strider
02-08-2010, 15:50
Yes, I can understand how you would draw these correlations between the belief that both church and state are higher authorities which essentially relieve the common man from from responsibility for his own actions, but I thoroughly disagree that the Russian Orthodox church is part of the current Russian problem.

Although historically rather parasitical (as all churches are) I lean more toward thinking that the Russian church may be the only resource available on the road to solving some of Russia's current problems.

It is my observation that a very very large problem with the Russian people is a lack of faith in each other, and a severe dearth of charity and mercy. That Russian moral values (and values are the very bedrock of civilization) have no home and no teacher. I believe that in all of Moscow there is ONE soup kitchen? I recently read that the ONLY women's shelter in St. Petersburg, which housed merely 30 or so battered women just closed for lack of funding.

Russians woefully mistrust their fellow citizens and have no moral compass for Kindness, compassion, charity, piety, humility, trust, and forgiveness. These values are traditionally the landscape of the church. Religion teaches these values to the people and often organizes missions of charity and help for those in need. When sovietism declared war on, and crushed the Russian Orthodox church, it removed the moral compass from the people. They never learned how to be kind and charitable and committed. The teacher was executed.

The result nearly 100 years later, is a vast disparate country with no cohesive social values; no respect for each other, no trust, and no kindness. This has certainly bred a culture of extreme corruption, where no one is interested in the well being of anyone but themselves and their immediate family members. I get mine and kick the other guy in the pants before he takes it away from me.

The Russian Orthodox church is capable of mending this spirit of dis-community, and putting the society on a gentler path of kinship and faith which will go a long way toward solving the deep rooted problems of mistrust which permeates every corner of life and business in Russia.

The church is part of the solution this time. I am convinced of it.

ZAO Russian Orthodox Church and ZAO Kremlin work very closely. And if someone is working with criminals, he's probably a criminal too

maybe religion itself isn't that bad, but this church went too far...

xSnoofovich
02-08-2010, 15:59
but I thoroughly disagree that the Russian Orthodox church is part of the current Russian problem.


The church is part of the solution this time. I am convinced of it.

I didn't mean it in the sense that the Russian Orthodox church is bad or wrong. I just meant that the subtle nuances that are part of that particular branch of Christianity lead one to see things in a different light. And we can see the results in society.

Such as -

1) In Protestantism, when we see someone who is rich, we think that person worked hard, and God rewarded them because of their hard labour.

Whereas,

In Russian Orthodoxy, a rich man is someone to be despised, as they are probably a thief or worse.

China probably also has the same problem, as they pray to x-amount of various gods due to their different regional/national religions, such as the various branches of Buddhism.

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 15:59
What makes people from the west think that there are so much better than people in Russia and can tell them what they should do?

Who is doing that?

^ You are, that's who.

Really? And how do you draw that conclusion from the post I wrote?

First: you accuse me above of saying that the West is "so much better". Please point to anywhere in my post where I said that or even implied it.

Second: You accuse me of saying that we can tell Russian people what to do. Please point to anywhere in my post where I said that or even implied it.

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 16:02
No. Clearly the collapse of these crooks was the result of corruption.

I think the whole scam WAS corruption, on a huge scale, so I cannot see how corruption and bureaucracy would have stopped it.

A genuine Financial Services Watchdog would have helped - maybe you define that as bureaucracy. If so I agree. But I can't see how more corruption would have helped.

Willy
02-08-2010, 16:20
Really? And how do you draw that conclusion from the post I wrote?

First: you accuse me above of saying that the West is "so much better". Please point to anywhere in my post where I said that or even implied it.

Second: You accuse me of saying that we can tell Russian people what to do. Please point to anywhere in my post where I said that or even implied it.



I did you just can't understand anything.


Just keep rambling on, with what you think you know, I'll get back to you.

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 16:26
I did you just can't understand anything.


Just keep rambling on, with what you think you know, I'll get back to you.

No Willy - that is a lie.

You have not pointed to anywhere where I said those things. How is that possible since I did not say them?

But this does seem to be your style - lie about what someone has posted and then run away.

ReallyGreatConcerts
02-08-2010, 16:53
I think the whole scam WAS corruption, on a huge scale, so I cannot see how corruption and bureaucracy would have stopped it.
.

Which is exactly what I said :)

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 17:19
I started this thread with this post.


What do you think are the biggest problems facing Russia which are preventing progress being made?

For my two penny worth I would say the biggest threats are corruption and bureaucracy.

Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy, no innovative economy can appear.

You made this comment Willy.


What makes people from the west think that there are so much better than people in Russia and can tell them what they should do?

I then asked you who had done that. You replied.


^ You are, that's who.

I asked in post no. 48 to show me where I had done this. My words were:


Really? And how do you draw that conclusion from the post I wrote?

First: you accuse me above of saying that the West is "so much better". Please point to anywhere in my post where I said that or even implied it.

Second: You accuse me of saying that we can tell Russian people what to do. Please point to anywhere in my post where I said that or even implied it.

Willy you then lied and said that you had already done this. You said:-


I did you just can't understand anything.


Just keep rambling on, with what you think you know, I'll get back to you.

But you hadn’t done, so that was a lie wasn’t it Willy?

So unless you persist in saying nothing – and thereby showing everyone that you are a liar - please show me where I said, “people from the west think that there are so much better than people in Russia and can tell them what they should do?”

All my posts on the subject are above. I cannot see those words, or anything like them in them, but maybe you can.

Please show me where they are.

TolkoRaz
02-08-2010, 18:36
What do you think are the biggest problems facing Russia which are preventing progress being made?

Corruption, bureaucracy, apathy, organisation and structures, as well as the size of the problem and the huge expanse of land mass / time zones making the country almost ungovernable etc :book:

Ian G
02-08-2010, 19:02
Originally Posted by Gypsy


What do you think are the biggest problems facing Russia which are preventing progress being made?

For my two penny worth I would say the biggest threats are corruption and bureaucracy.

Gogol Dostoyevsky and Chekhov all wrote stories about low-grade cringing, obequious civil servants, living in fear of their superiors in the service. In a system in which every level shows undue respect to the next level up there can never be any accountability to the public. The machinery of state exists for itself, and specifically for the high-level people. Bureaucracy and corruption, and the bureaucrat's typical indifference to the needs of the public (i.e. хамство) are just two examples of this.

The result is what I mentioned in an earlier post- the State is everything- and it looks after its own people-while the individual (who isn't rich or powerful) is nothing. That may not be the official ideology, but it's pretty accurate in practice.

And this is not just true of Russia. I'd say to a greater or lesser extent it's true of all countries. State service is a game in which you spend as little as possible on projects of benefit to the public, and milk the cow of State for as much as you can.


I still think the attitude to the environment (a resource) is the most serious problem, though. And again, it's not just a problem in Russia.

Willy
02-08-2010, 19:04
I started this thread with this post.



You made this comment Willy.



I then asked you who had done that. You replied.



I asked in post no. 48 to show me where I had done this. My words were:



Willy you then lied and said that you had already done this. You said:-



But you hadn’t done, so that was a lie wasn’t it Willy?

So unless you persist in saying nothing – and thereby showing everyone that you are a liar - please show me where I said, “people from the west think that there are so much better than people in Russia and can tell them what they should do?”

All my posts on the subject are above. I cannot see those words, or anything like them in them, but maybe you can.

Please show me where they are.





Jesus you sound like a baby,"your a lier, your a lier" and you want people to believe that your some big business man when your on here all day taking up petty arguments with a admitted, drug user, womenizer, musician that never really went to school much and he has to explain English to you? I understand you don't even know when you insult someone we've proven that, because someone would have to be myopic and a little dim not too.

Okay I like helping people even if they are arrogant and dumb so here goes.

When you say, "Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy, no innovative economy can appear." your telling Russians what they need to do in your opinion to make Russia better. Better for who? You? You want to make us believe that there is no corruption where your from? There is, it's just not as transparent as in Russia. We all know it's here and how it works.

ReallyGreatConcerts
02-08-2010, 19:25
Gogol Dostoyevsky and Chekhov all wrote stories about low-grade cringing, obequious civil servants, living in fear of their superiors in the service. In a system in which every level shows undue respect to the next level up there can never be any accountability to the public. .

Russian people experienced 70 years of rule by this class of numpty pen-pushers. The sad wankers whose State Plans turned the Aral Sea from a profitable fishing-port and summer resort into an ecological disaster-area bombarded with toxic acid rain, and with the topsoil of the surrounding area blown away for hundreds of miles around.

What we have in post-soviet Russia is Realpolitik. Anyone who was in Moscow or Leningrad in the 1980s as I was will remember that the street lighting didn't work, the roads were a potholed death-trap, and you couldn't reliably get basic groceries. We foreigners may grumble that the methodology that brought change didn't blow smoke up our arses, but only a blind man could claim that the change hasn't been spectacular and of benefit to 96% of the city's population.

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 19:29
Jesus you sound like a baby,"your a lier, your a lier" and you want people to believe that your some big business man Really? When have I said what it is I do?


When you say, "Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy, no innovative economy can appear." your telling Russians what they need to do in your opinion to make Russia better. An opinion. Not an instruction. So I am not telling people to do anything. Offering an opinion on a subject is far far removed from telling Russians what to do. An opinion is one thing - telling someone to do something is quite different. As you have confirmed I did not tell anyone to do anything.



Better for who? You? You want to make us believe that there is no corruption where your from? There is, it's just not as transparent as in Russia. We all know it's here and how it works. better than it is. Nowhere Have I mentioned another country - the thread is about Russia, and improving it. So better than before. One thing follows from the other.

As I said before - if you want to start a thread about improving France or UK i'll happily join in - but this thread is about Russia.

So from your post above we can conclude that you have no evidence at all to support what you wrote that I think I am better, or that the west is. And as you helpfully point out, I did not tell anyone to do anything.

And for your information this is what President Medvedev said last wednesday:

Medvedev on corruption 28 7 2010: from Moscow Times.

Medvedev used the opportunity to demonstrate his solidarity with the existing public consensus that Russia's biggest threats were corruption and bureaucracy, he said.

Medvedev said at the meeting that even though technological modernization was a very important element of Russia's development, "other conditions going along with the process are, regretfully, no less important. Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy”, he said, “no innovative economy could appear.”

Willy
02-08-2010, 19:34
Gypsy you still didn't answer me in another thread so all I can say is your a lier and you run away because you can't answer me.

TolkoRaz
02-08-2010, 19:36
Writes the guy who uses a skateboard! ;)

zingo
02-08-2010, 20:43
The biggest problem is the quantity of idiots who imagine they know all, coming from various countries who wahnt give lessons of all to Russia. They should better sweap near THEIR doors.

the gypsy, we do not need you: You are proud to live in France right? Begin to work for "your" (LOL) country, go and fight the criminal illegal immigrants to restore safety in the streets, for example!

you are losing your time here, we don't care at all of what some people like you think. By the way you are online at any time, you seem to work a lot! Also, why are you in Russia and not in France? Just to give us lessons of all, Doctor gypsy?

And about corruption, I saw saturday night 2 expats from the USA going outside the Boar House, with 3 (!) girls. They crossed the street by the underground passage and I saw that a lada full of cops stopped them. Talks... Talks.... One gave something to the cops... And the lada went away. The 5 persons walked to the metro. I quicly ran after them and met with them in the station, asking in English "hey you got in trouble, hope all is right" etc etc.
One proudly said that his visa was not registered so he gave 5000 rub (!!!!) to the cops.

So the corruption is also made by foreigners, doctor gypsy! Go and save your lovely France, Guana, or I don't know which place! They need your experience, for sure :hooray:



What do you think are the biggest problems facing Russia which are preventing progress being made?

For my two penny worth I would say the biggest threats are corruption and bureaucracy.

Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy, no innovative economy can appear.

TolkoRaz
02-08-2010, 21:17
One proudly said that his visa was not registered so he gave 5000 rub (!!!!) to the cops.

So the corruption is also made by foreigners, doctor gypsy!

Actually it was the Miliman who was corrupt asking for and accepting the bribe.

But, I don't blame him. I blame the system for not having the disciplined, impartial and well paid organisations in place working for the greater good. It has to start at the top and push downwards. If not, it will fail.

The sad thing is that The Russian Federation is in a state of decay, the rot is ever permissive in so many walks of life. But Zingo is also right, it is not for Expats to critique or to put it right, its for the Russians themselves to identify the problems, find the solutions and to implement the remedial action.

And, at the end of the day, most of these problems were evident before the arrival of so many expats to Moscow and beyond, so its not our fault either!

Willy
02-08-2010, 21:36
I'd like to thank Mickey for turning me on to these videos. Great stuff.


YouTube- RSA Animate - Crises of Capitalism

andrehstewart
02-08-2010, 21:42
There is an environment of no accountability in Russia. Even a very straigh British Business man after a week in Russia will start crossing lines he would never cross in the UK...

We know the reasons of the biggest problems facing Russia - corruption, no accountability etc... but who has any answers to this problem???

ReallyGreatConcerts
02-08-2010, 21:50
There is an environment of no accountability in Russia. Even a very straigh British Business man after a week in Russia will start crossing lines he would never cross in the UK...

We know the reasons of the biggest problems facing Russia - corruption, no accountability etc... but who has any answers to this problem???

Tell me where in your Britain the Underground trains come every two minutes and run until 1am, the bus runs every 10 minutes all night (whether it has a "viable payload" or not), the station isn't lined with racist graffiti that's never removed, there are no homeless people lining the streets, your kids can get into the local school without having to take it to court....

..... which do you prefer... rules or results? :)

Cos I know which I prefer! :)

TolkoRaz
02-08-2010, 21:52
RGC, Cease being so Moscow centric and pathetically naive.

What about the rest of The Russian Federation where the majority of the people live?

And obviously you are as drunk as the homeless Muzhiki and women who lie collapsed in their own filth around Moscow's metro and overland rail stations!

tvadim133
02-08-2010, 22:03
Corruption, bureaucracy, apathy, organisation and structures, as well as the size of the problem and the huge expanse of land mass / time zones making the country almost ungovernable etc :book:

Ungovernable for 300 years already! :)

TolkoRaz
02-08-2010, 22:05
Ungovernable for 300 years already! :)

Could be, but who is counting? ;)

tvadim133
02-08-2010, 22:08
RGC, Cease being so Moscow centric and pathetically naive.

What about the rest of The Russian Federation where the majority of the people live?

And obviously you are as drunk as the homeless Muzhiki and women who lie collapsed in their own filth around Moscow's metro and overland rail stations!

What is the question about regions of Russia?

TolkoRaz
02-08-2010, 22:13
What is the question about regions of Russia?

I was referring to RGC's Post 65 which was intimating that the whole of The Russian Federation could be compared to Moscow etc. Clearly, Moscow's metro and transport system etc is way 'superior' to the rest of the country.

Vast swathes of the country and population still live in poverty, no running water, poor sanitation, below standard hospitals and schools, derelict buildings etc...........massive investment remains awaited.

tvadim133
02-08-2010, 22:18
The biggest problem is the quantity of idiots who imagine they know all, coming from various countries who wahnt give lessons of all to Russia.

I would not agree that russia must not be "taught"!

Though nobody likes to be taught indeed.

The process of teaching is to give information, examples, experience and may be forming and developping skills.

Modern Russia take a lot fo good things from the West, as I think, but nevertheless after Yeltsin at least, we adapt good things in Russia, not just do it without thinking, just because of good "advisers".

tvadim133
02-08-2010, 22:30
I was referring to RGC's Post 65 which was intimating that the whole of The Russian Federation could be compared to Moscow etc. Clearly, Moscow's metro and transport system etc is way 'superior' to the rest of the country.

Vast swathes of the country and population still live in poverty, no running water, poor sanitation, below standard hospitals and schools, derelict buildings etc...........massive investment remains awaited.

Frankly speaking, I have never been to small cities, but in big (with population more than 300 000 habitants) the situtaion can be compared with Moscow, though it can be different and depends upon the city and the Potentiality there.

Poor sanitation? Povetry! Below standars hospitals and schools?

Well, I did researches and visited: Lipetsk, Voronezh, Krasnodar, Rostov-on-Don, Samara, Toliagty, Kazan, Saratov, Yekaterinburg, Oryel, Kursk, Belgorod, Tambov, Stary-Oskol, Penza, Novosibirsk, Irkutsk, Nizny Novgorod Vladivostok and so on.

The situation is quite the same: developing, new shoping malls, new cars and cars outlets, stores, new buildings, kindergardens, cinemas, roads and so on.

I was interested first of all of consumers' research and smb (small business customers') development. It is not excellent, but very, very good.

In comparison with Moscow, the level of salaries is much lower, but costs of living there is lower than in Moscow, but the quality is good.

ReallyGreatConcerts
02-08-2010, 22:41
What is the question about regions of Russia?


Tonto Wazz only reveals further levels of his bigotry and pig-ignorance. The real story here is how Russia's further and more outlying regions have remodelled their infrastructure with a quantum leap - bringing things up to a par with the capital within a tiny timeframe.

Of course Mr Wazz only knows the way from his one-room hovel in Chertanovo to the Boarhouse and back - so his garbled and mispelled ravings about the rest of Russia have all the validity of a buddhist monk's tips for barbecued spare ribs.

In 2010 alone I've been to St P twice, Ekaterinburg, Novosibirsk, Barnaul, Tiumen', Vladimir (twice), Ryazan' (twice), Kolomna, Kurchatov, Kursk, Tver' and Ostashkov. So I get to see the actual infrastructure development in Russia's provinces both rich and poor - and everywhere it's improving enormously. I didn't see a graffiti'd bus or train anywhere. I wasn't delayed by "leaves on the line", or "buses replacing trains". The trolleybus in Tiumen' in January came every five minutes in temperatures of -37C. There were eager crowds of young middleclass diners at Planeta Sushi in Novosibirsk and McPeak's in Ekaterinburg.

This is what I've seen with my own eyes. Rather than the worn-out empty cliched lies retailed by Mr Wazz.

tvadim133
02-08-2010, 22:52
Do not blame people, who just never been there!

Even Muscovites think, that there is no life in 100 km from Moscow. :)

TolkoRaz
02-08-2010, 23:02
Judging by RGC's travel itinerary, I have travelled far more extensively than RGC around The Russian Federation.

Even if he opens his eyes whilst aboard the Domodedovo Aero Express, he will see plenty of graffiti, but he choses not to look through his rose tinted spectacles at the appropriate times!

Open your eyes and wise up RGC!

Gypsy
02-08-2010, 23:23
Guest - are you really publicly disagreeing with your President?

We went through this earlier on. I'm more than happy to discuss France and UK in a thread devoted to them This thread is about progress in Russia, so France and UK are irrelevant,

And as has already been established, some hours ago, Willy confirmed this by the way, I have not told anybody to do anything. Do try and keep up there's a good chap.

I have merely quoted President Medvedev.

Medvedev on corruption 28 7 2010: from Moscow Times.

"Medvedev used the opportunity to demonstrate his solidarity with the existing public consensus that Russia's biggest threats were corruption and bureaucracy, he said.

Medvedev said at the meeting that even though technological modernization was a very important element of Russia's development, "other conditions going along with the process are, regretfully, no less important. Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy”, he said, “no innovative economy could appear.”

But I applaud you for publicly contradicting your president Guest - I never would have thought you had it in you.

I don't agree with you, Zingo, I think Medvedev is right but good for you anyway.

And - as I work here, pay taxes here, employ people here and the company pays taxes I think I am entitled to an opinion.

My opinion is that, unlike you Zingo, I think President Medvedev is correct.

alouette
03-08-2010, 00:07
Guest - are you really publicly disagreeing with your President?

We went through this earlier on. I'm more than happy to discuss France and UK in a thread devoted to them This thread is about progress in Russia, so France and UK are irrelevant,

And as has already been established, some hours ago, Willy confirmed this by the way, I have not told anybody to do anything. Do try and keep up there's a good chap.

I have merely quoted President Medvedev.

Medvedev on corruption 28 7 2010: from Moscow Times.

"Medvedev used the opportunity to demonstrate his solidarity with the existing public consensus that Russia's biggest threats were corruption and bureaucracy, he said.

Medvedev said at the meeting that even though technological modernization was a very important element of Russia's development, "other conditions going along with the process are, regretfully, no less important. Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy”, he said, “no innovative economy could appear.”

But I applaud you for publicly contradicting your president Guest - I never would have thought you had it in you.

I don't agree with you, Zingo, I think Medvedev is right but good for you anyway.

And - as I work here, pay taxes here, employ people here and the company pays taxes I think I am entitled to an opinion.

My opinion is that, unlike you Zingo, I think President Medvedev is correct.

Stormy applause :hooray:

Willy
03-08-2010, 00:17
Guest - are you really publicly disagreeing with your President?

We went through this earlier on. I'm more than happy to discuss France and UK in a thread devoted to them This thread is about progress in Russia, so France and UK are irrelevant,

And as has already been established, some hours ago, Willy confirmed this by the way, I have not told anybody to do anything. Do try and keep up there's a good chap.

I have merely quoted President Medvedev.

Medvedev on corruption 28 7 2010: from Moscow Times.

"Medvedev used the opportunity to demonstrate his solidarity with the existing public consensus that Russia's biggest threats were corruption and bureaucracy, he said.

Medvedev said at the meeting that even though technological modernization was a very important element of Russia's development, "other conditions going along with the process are, regretfully, no less important. Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy”, he said, “no innovative economy could appear.”

But I applaud you for publicly contradicting your president Guest - I never would have thought you had it in you.

I don't agree with you, Zingo, I think Medvedev is right but good for you anyway.

And - as I work here, pay taxes here, employ people here and the company pays taxes I think I am entitled to an opinion.

My opinion is that, unlike you Zingo, I think President Medvedev is correct.



Why do you keep calling every Russian that disagrees with you Guest, it's not Guest! You want us all to believe your delusions? Think if you keep repeating it, we'll all think it? He doesn't even know who Guest is, he came here long after he was gone. Guest had a lot more class anyway.

You also keep saying you prove me wrong but it's just you won't admit I'm right but you will see. You started a thread that could be rude for your host because you have no right to live here, judge Russians or tell them how to live. Your just a guest.

zingo
03-08-2010, 01:06
eheh you for sure did not UNDERSTAND the meaning of my message!



So what I mean is that we do not need GUYS LIKE YOU who know all, and I said in the second part that YES there is corruption but that it is ALSO the fact of FOREIGNERS.

Did you understand it NOW?

About Medvedev he IS right, though he will not succeed just because MOST RUSSIANS (and foreigners, but I don't care of foreigners for this, as it is a RUSSIAN problem) ARE "ZA" corruption. Why? Just because it makes things more simple AT A FIRST GLANCE. Between paying a bribe at the GAI cop or going to queue an hour at Sberbank, it isn't hard to chose.


And gypsy, working and paying taxes here doesn't grant you ANY right more than working and paying taxes. You have no right to vote as far as I know. Paying taxes is the NORMAL way in all civilized country, and you should even say THANK YOU to pay less taxes in Russia that you would pay in your country.

About "Guest" I will reply in a separate message :)




Guest - are you really publicly disagreeing with your President?

We went through this earlier on. I'm more than happy to discuss France and UK in a thread devoted to them This thread is about progress in Russia, so France and UK are irrelevant,

And as has already been established, some hours ago, Willy confirmed this by the way, I have not told anybody to do anything. Do try and keep up there's a good chap.

I have merely quoted President Medvedev.

Medvedev on corruption 28 7 2010: from Moscow Times.

"Medvedev used the opportunity to demonstrate his solidarity with the existing public consensus that Russia's biggest threats were corruption and bureaucracy, he said.

Medvedev said at the meeting that even though technological modernization was a very important element of Russia's development, "other conditions going along with the process are, regretfully, no less important. Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy”, he said, “no innovative economy could appear.”

But I applaud you for publicly contradicting your president Guest - I never would have thought you had it in you.

I don't agree with you, Zingo, I think Medvedev is right but good for you anyway.

And - as I work here, pay taxes here, employ people here and the company pays taxes I think I am entitled to an opinion.

My opinion is that, unlike you Zingo, I think President Medvedev is correct.

zingo
03-08-2010, 01:07
Stormy applause :hooray:

So you are as stupid as the gypsy who didn't understand anything? Is it contagious?

zingo
03-08-2010, 01:10
Why do you keep calling every Russian that disagrees with you Guest, it's not Guest! You want us all to believe your delusions? Think if you keep repeating it, we'll all think it? He doesn't even know who Guest is, he came here long after he was gone. Guest had a lot more class anyway.

You also keep saying you prove me wrong but it's just you won't admit I'm right but you will see. You started a thread that could be rude for your host because you have no right to live here, judge Russians or tell them how to live. Your just a guest.


Probably the gypsy tried to get a date with Guest and was sent nuts, so he sees him now everywhere. As far as I know, Guest never hunts in Kitai Gorod park where the gypsy is often seen. But it is his problem (and his a-s-s :))

And you are right Willy, the gypsy has ABSOLUTELY no right to comment anything here, he has not to agree or disagree otherwise than just stay or LEAVE here. He IS a guest (without CAPS G!) and as so should have the DECENCY to shut up if he disagrees. And again, if he disagrees he may leave the country for his hot native country, nobody will ask him to stay, for sure.

Willy
03-08-2010, 01:16
So you are as stupid as the gypsy who didn't understand anything? Is it contagious?



She's on your side man, I think it was sarcastic.

tvadim133
03-08-2010, 01:21
No comments, Just will go to the shower to wash all this s....t off!

spmoscow
03-08-2010, 01:35
What do you think are the biggest problems facing Russia which are preventing progress being made?

For my two penny worth I would say the biggest threats are corruption and bureaucracy.

Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy, no innovative economy can appear.

Cheap Alcohol...everybody gets so drunk that no time to think for corruption and things like that!

zingo
03-08-2010, 01:41
She's on your side man, I think it was sarcastic.

Hum so she will also take my reply as sarcastic :)

"Alouette, dgentille alouette, alouette je te plumerai". I cannot remember which frenchy sang this... Maybe the living encyclopedia "New gypsy" could help?

(Alouette, it is humor, sure :)

Gypsy
03-08-2010, 07:44
Probably the gypsy tried to get a date with Guest and was sent nuts, so he sees him now everywhere. As far as I know, Guest never hunts in Kitai Gorod park where the gypsy is often seen. But it is his problem (and his a-s-s :))

And you are right Willy, the gypsy has ABSOLUTELY no right to comment anything here, he has not to agree or disagree otherwise than just stay or LEAVE here. He IS a guest (without CAPS G!) and as so should have the DECENCY to shut up if he disagrees. And again, if he disagrees he may leave the country for his hot native country, nobody will ask him to stay, for sure.

Guest - you should go back and read Post 1 and Post 76 again.

I AGREED with President Medvedev. You and Willy are the ones who DISAGREED.

Unless of course you both don't disagree with the President at all. So if you agree with President Medvedev and me, but still post on here arguing against me then you must be Trolls.

Trolls who just follows someone around a forum contradicting anything they say, even when you agree with it.

sweetfart
03-08-2010, 07:48
biggest problems facing Russia? probably Russian people themselves

haha

Well, you can't talk about Russia's problems (especially economic) without tapping on someone's inferiority complex. It's like mentioning the topic of obesity in front of the fat girl. Problems. What kinda topic is this. Problems. Every country has problems, we all know this. Even the US has many problems...but Russia has more.

Jack17
03-08-2010, 08:17
It is my observation that a very very large problem with the Russian people is a lack of faith in each other, and a severe dearth of charity and mercy. That Russian moral values (and values are the very bedrock of civilization) have no home and no teacher. I believe that in all of Moscow there is ONE soup kitchen? I recently read that the ONLY women's shelter in St. Petersburg, which housed merely 30 or so battered women just closed for lack of funding.

Russians woefully mistrust their fellow citizens and have no moral compass for Kindness, compassion, charity, piety, humility, trust, and forgiveness. These values are traditionally the landscape of the church. Religion teaches these values to the people and often organizes missions of charity and help for those in need. When sovietism declared war on, and crushed the Russian Orthodox church, it removed the moral compass from the people. They never learned how to be kind and charitable and committed. The teacher was executed.

The result nearly 100 years later, is a vast disparate country with no cohesive social values; no respect for each other, no trust, and no kindness.

I think among the agregate what you say may be true; but my experience is that there is a great deal of charity, generosity and kindness among Russians, but it exists almost exclusively on the level of friend to friend. In contrast, I ask, how many friends does the average American have? Few, if any. How many the average Russian, especially the average Russka? Many. And they depend on these friends for support, both physical and emotional. Since I don't have to earn a living in Russia, for me, it's perfect - don't change anything. The world doesn't need another Germany or US. Now, I will make one exception to that blanket statement; there does not to be better help for the babushki and orphans. The people at the chronological extremes of the social spectrum, who aren't in a position to have friends, do need more social welfare.

My great fear is that if Russia becomes exactly like some NATO country, the women will forget how to be such passionate lovers - maybe also such hellbats on wheels; but, what the hell, who wants to live in the middle, that's no fun.

zingo
03-08-2010, 08:28
Guest - you should go back and read Post 1 and Post 76 again.

I AGREED with President Medvedev. You and Willy are the ones who DISAGREED.

Unless of course you both don't disagree with the President at all. So if you agree with President Medvedev and me, but still post on here arguing against me then you must be Trolls.

Trolls who just follows someone around a forum contradicting anything they say, even when you agree with it.

You know I don't care at all if you agree or not with Pdt, as you are just nobody, nothing here :) You may tell that you agree, and what? Do you expect something in return? You are pathetic! You are like these small kids at school who tell their teachers "you are right and XXX is wrong, how clever you are deeear teacher|! You imagine you are important because you post thousands messages here? LOL! You are an "useful idiot", you know this formula? Or maybe even just an idiot, simply :)

BTW about agreeing or not with Pdt, though I agree on this point this has NO importance at all, Russia is a country where you may agree or not with anybody.


And your 'classification' in 'troll'.... You make your life by living on this forum, you get some great impressions, probably some orgasms too, by posting here on all topics. That is your small pathetic life. You would be surprised to know what other expats with whom you meet from time to time, think about you...

You are just a troll, not on the forum, but in life :) Instead of living on this forum, get a life! Try to find a girlfriend, you will see that it is better than your usual boyfriends!!!

Nobbynumbnuts
03-08-2010, 11:57
Apart from corruption and bureaucracy that have been mentioned, the authorities need to diversify the economy away from it's dependency on oil and gas. Only then can everyone share in the wealth.

Gypsy
03-08-2010, 12:16
Apart from corruption and bureaucracy that have been mentioned, the authorities need to diversify the economy away from it's dependency on oil and gas. Only then can everyone share in the wealth.

That is a very tricky thing to carry out successfully. The attempts in the Middle East have not all succeeded for example.

ultimotattie
03-08-2010, 12:21
I would say that Russia has to take care of it's takeaway problem before it thinks about anything else.

Until they have a decent takeaway service, whether it's fish and chips, a big bit of pakora or a greasy chinese, they'll always have problems.

alouette
03-08-2010, 12:51
Apart from corruption and bureaucracy that have been mentioned, the authorities need to diversify the economy away from it's dependency on oil and gas. Only then can everyone share in the wealth.

That 70’s Show in Russia.
Aleh Tsyvinski is Professor of Economics at Yale University. Sergei Guriev is Rector of the New Economic School, Moscow.

'Can Russia escape the “resource curse” implied by high oil prices, or will it succumb to what we call a “70-80” scenario? That is the question confronting Russians today, and we fear that their fate will be the latter: if oil prices remain at $70-80 per barrel, Russia is likely to relive key features of the Brezhnev era of the 1970’s and 1980’s – with a stagnating economy and 70-80% approval ratings for its political leaders.
The resource curse means, of course, that Russian elites will prefer to postpone restructuring the economy and modernizing the country’s political and economic institutions. This will undermine economic performance, making it very unlikely that Russia will catch up with the advanced economies in the next 10-15 years, as officials promise.
Fast and sustainable economic growth requires the rule of law, accountable, meritocratic, and non-corrupt bureaucrats, protection of property rights, contract enforcement, and competitive markets. Such institutions are difficult to build in every society. In Russia, the task is especially problematic, because the ruling elite’s interests run counter to undertaking it.
In post-crisis Russia, the resource curse is reinforced by two factors. First, massive renationalization since 2004 has left state-owned companies once again controlling the commanding heights of the economy. These firms have no interest in developing modern institutions that protect private property and promote the rule of law. Second, Russia’s high degree of economic inequality sustains the majority’s preference for redistribution rather than private entrepreneurship.
Russia’s leaders acknowledge the need for modernization, and pay it frequent lip-service, as is evidenced by President Dmitri Medvedev’s manifesto “Go, Russia!” But the incentives to escape the resource trap are weakened by the overwhelming importance of the resource rents to the wider political elite.
When the economy was near collapse during the recent crisis, we thought that the government would recognize the need to push ahead with radical reforms that would eventually lead to a diverse, de-centralized, and fast-growing economy. But, while stimulus policies were mostly effective in dealing with the immediate crisis, they did not address the long-term issues that impede growth.
Still, the government continues to tout plans to boost the economy. Vertical industrial policy, horizontal industrial policy, investment in education – all have been tried in the last ten years. Yet Russia’s public institutions remain as weak as ever (for example, corruption is as prevalent as it was 10 years ago, if not more so), and the economy is no less dependent on commodity prices.
Today’s economic silver bullet is an “innovation city” in Skolkovo, which the government hopes will spur inflows of modern technology. But there are no magic recipes for modernization. Moreover, there is no need to reinvent the wheel. A comprehensive and consistent reform plan was already included in then-President Vladimir Putin’s own economic agenda at the beginning of his first term in 2000.
The so-called Gref Program (named after former Minister of the Economy German Gref) foresaw many of the reforms that are vitally needed – privatization, deregulation, accession to the World Trade Organization, and reform of the government, natural monopolies, and social security. Many of these reforms are outlined in the current government’s own “Long-Term Strategy for 2020.” The problem is that – as with the Gref program in 2000 – the Strategy is unlikely to be fully implemented, owing to the same old weak incentives.
Even the recently announced privatization of non-controlling stakes in the largest state-owned firms – while timely and laudable – will not create an irreversible commitment to reform. So far, the government does not want to let control over these firms get into private hands. Hence, the sales that Prime Minister Putin announced will not increase the demand for pro-market institutions.
By contrast, the “70-80” scenario seems increasingly likely. In June, during the St. Petersburg Economic Forum, participants in two sessions – Russian government and business leaders, as well as influential foreign players – were asked about the future of Russia’s economy. The results were drearily similar. In one session, 61% of participants foresaw stagnation in the next 2-5 years (33% predicted growth and 5% expected a crisis). In the other session, 55% of participants foresaw stagnation in the next ten years (with 41% projecting growth and 4% expecting collapse).
The factors that drove the Putin era of rapid economic growth – high and rising oil prices, cheap labor, and unused production capacity – are all exhausted. Russia will thus be forced to start spending the reserves that saved the economy in the recent crisis. The “70-80” scenario will preserve the status quo, but eventually the economy will reach a dead end, at which point the only choice will be genuine economic reform or decline and dangerous civil disorder.'

GaNozri
03-08-2010, 14:48
Judging by RGC's travel itinerary, I have travelled far more extensively than RGC around The Russian Federation.

Even if he opens his eyes whilst aboard the Domodedovo Aero Express, he will see plenty of graffiti, but he choses not to look through his rose tinted spectacles at the appropriate times!

Open your eyes and wise up RGC!

Actually, 90% of the graffitti you see in Moscow was paid for by the Moscow gov't. They had this event when the city gave out spray paint to kids if they agreed to paint only the walls which they were allowed to paint. These were mostly derilict fences, boilers, garages (the ones you saw when on Aero express), etc.

GaNozri
03-08-2010, 14:52
Even the US has many problems....

Are you serious? The US? Problems? You don't say.

ReallyGreatConcerts
03-08-2010, 15:09
Originally Posted by Tonto Wraz
Judging by RGC's travel itinerary, I have travelled far more extensively than RGC around The Russian Federation.

But that was my itinerary only since January 2010.

martpark
03-08-2010, 15:16
That is a very tricky thing to carry out successfully. The attempts in the Middle East have not all succeeded for example.

Abu Dhabi has done well if you look into it. I know as a Manchester City fan. The royal family has quite diverse investments, such as football, solar/alternative power, airlines, construction, etc. There was an article a while back about them.

Perhaps they didn't experience the same crisis that happened in Dubai for this reason. Also, I know Qatar is trying to be the 'education Emirate' by attracting many universities from around the world to its shores.

Carbo
03-08-2010, 15:36
They are the biggest problems preventing Russia from cloning an economy like the one - for example - in which Bear Stears and Lehmann Brothers turned out to have created billions of dollars in entirely fictional money.

Let me tell you, Putin, the Kremlin and the Russian people would have been far better off with an economy which only fell as much as the US economy, Bear Stearns, Lehman or not. Russia's economy, despite no major bank failures, and a superbly run effort from the Kremlin to maintain banking system liquidity (credit where credit's due), plummeted by far more than either the other G8 countries or the other BRICs.

So, erm, once again, it looks as if your hysteria has gotten the better of common sense.


And in the C18th/C19th Russia had the greatest Empire on earth :)

I beg to differ; however, beyond that, I have to say that I'm shocked -- absolutely flabbergasted -- to hear you eulogising about any empire. Dear, oh dear. It seems your ideas really aren't borne out of any founding principles or thought. Repeat after me: what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I see now why you're so inconsistent.

Carbo
03-08-2010, 15:49
The major barrier to further Russian development is clearly corruption.

All other issues can only be tackled once this root cause is solved.

It has natural disadvantages, like it's massive size and commensurate difficulty in transporting goods and information. But improving logistics requires tackling corruption. Like that road in Sochi that was so expensive that it would have been possible to cover the same surface area with 10 cm of fois gras, or 1 cm of Louis Vuitton bags.

No country can develop when corruption is sucking so much out.

Clearly, Russia has made vast improvements, but, let's face it, it was coming from a very low base in the 90s.

As for the cause of the endemic corruption, I have a crazy, bar room-philosophy idea that probably doesn't stand up to any rigour, but which I suspect might have something to do with it: people didn't get their freedom early enough.

When was the emancipation of the serfs? 1861? Something like that. Very, very late. The forces of conservatism held on far too long in Russia, and then effectively came back in communist days. Countries which have done best have been freest for longest, giving their people life and liberty and the ability to pursue happiness. This gives people something to live for, liberating them to invent, to innovate, to strive, to take risks for gain, and to succeed. It also provides consumers for rich folk's goods. It also provides a large group of people to keep government on their toes.

Russia didn't even start this process until nearly 200 years after Britain's Glorious Revolution, about 90 years after the French revolution, and about 100 after the American. And then, it was crushed by communism, which again reinforced the idea of the strong leader and the individual as subservient to the state.

This is why the fatalism, the distrust, the fear. This, I suspect, is why the economy has always had to play catch up.

It also explains the lack of concept for rule of law. Without Magna Carta, or the Constitution, something revered, law is what's good for the chief, whether he be a boyar, a tzar, or the chairman of the politburo. Centuries of this style of judiciary oversight has left an indelible mark that will take many years to shake off.

I'm, long term, optimistic about Russia. Given how late it started on the road to liberal democracy, it is probably ahead of the curve. People criticise Putin, but he's far more democratic in his beliefs than the vast majority of his constituents. He generally represents the Narod and is popular.

Could he do better? Sure, much. But in the long term, it'll come.

But, as I say, if corruption could be moved out the way, or better, strangled, it would happen much, much faster.

As it is, Russia is in danger of being left behind by it's BRIC peers, and perhaps by Malasia and other South East Asian countries, all of which started a long way behind Russia but are racing ahead at a mindblowing speed. And corruption is preventing Russia from doing the same.

Nobbynumbnuts
03-08-2010, 16:31
The major barrier to further Russian development is clearly corruption.

All other issues can only be tackled once this root cause is solved.........................

I'm not convinced that is the case.
Many other countries, in fact nearly all developing nations, face the challenge of what to do about corruption. Some like China, India and Brazil for example are or soon will be, delivering double digit growth. Corruption in India is probably worse than it is in Russia. China and Brazil are probably just as bad. All are delivering on improving standards of living.
I think developing nations are building a new growth model, one that 'factors in' corruption and makes allowances for it. If it can ultimately succeed without reform in this area is anyone guess but Russia can do the same.
The biggest issue for me is the Russian government's policy on attracting foreign investment or the lack of one. All the countries i have mentioned above attract direct foreign investment which boosts economic development. Russia needs to do the same.

Carbo
03-08-2010, 16:38
I'm not convinced that is the case.
Many other countries, in fact nearly all developing nations, face the challenge of what to do about corruption. Some like China, India and Brazil for example are or soon will be, delivering double digit growth. Corruption in India is probably worse than it is in Russia. China and Brazil are probably just as bad. All are delivering on improving standards of living.
I think developing nations are building a new growth model, one that 'factors in' corruption and makes allowances for it. If it can ultimately succeed without reform in this area is anyone guess but Russia can do the same.
The biggest issue for me is the Russian government's policy on attracting foreign investment or the lack of one. All the countries i have mentioned above attract direct foreign investment which boosts economic development. Russia needs to do the same.

Well, you may have different statistics to me, but I don't think that Brazilian, Chinese or Indian corruption are of the same level or total volume -- or pervade every level of society -- in quite the same way Russian corruption does.

Clearly, corruption exists in all these states, and perhaps China gets close, but corruption here is actually worth about more than the country's total tax revenues.

That's HUGE.

You see what happens to any economy when you suck out a third of a trillion dollars.

Look at the cost of roads in China compared to Russia. It's a fraction of the cost. It is in the west, too, and Britain, Germany, France, the US et al don't have desperate need for new roads. I mean, there's a road being built in Moscow that's more than 40 times more expensive than the equivalent in London would cost to build -- and that's including Russia's vastly cheaper labour.

Nobbynumbnuts
03-08-2010, 16:51
Well, you may have different statistics to me, but I don't think that Brazilian, Chinese or Indian corruption are of the same level or total volume -- or pervade every level of society -- in quite the same way Russian corruption does.

Clearly, corruption exists in all these states, and perhaps China gets close, but corruption here is actually worth about more than the country's total tax revenues.

That's HUGE.

You see what happens to any economy when you suck out a third of a trillion dollars.

Look at the cost of roads in China compared to Russia. It's a fraction of the cost. It is in the west, too, but Britain, Germany, France, the US et al don't have desperate need for new roads.

I have worked in India and corruption is actually far worse there than in Russia. BUT they have just announced 1 trillion dollars will be spent on infrastructure projects over the next 5 years. They have a plan.
Ask anyone who's spent time in China and they will tell you the same.
Corruption is part of everyday life in the developing world. People and companies learn to deal with it.
In Russia the biggest problem i believe is their xenophobic attitude to foreign companies. They need to do all they can to attract them. These companies can deliver at relatively little cost to the Russian government, employment, tax revenues and growth.

Carbo
03-08-2010, 17:03
I have worked in India and corruption is actually far worse there than in Russia. BUT they have just announced 1 trillion dollars will be spent on infrastructure projects over the next 5 years. They have a plan.
Ask anyone who's spent time in China and they will tell you the same.
Corruption is part of everyday life in the developing world. People and companies learn to deal with it.
In Russia the biggest problem i believe is their xenophobic attitude to foreign companies. They need to do all they can to attract them. These companies can deliver at relatively little cost to the Russian government, employment, tax revenues and growth.

OK, what I'm not saying is that Russia is the only country in the world with corruption. I'm also saying that all developing countries, and many developed, have problems with corruption -- look at Greece.

However, I think you're mistaken to believe that Indian or Chinese corruption is as bad as Russian, as a percentage of GDP.

I am ready to be proved wrong, however, if you can find statistics which go beyond the anecdotal.

Nobbynumbnuts
03-08-2010, 20:19
OK, what I'm not saying is that Russia is the only country in the world with corruption. I'm also saying that all developing countries, and many developed, have problems with corruption -- look at Greece.

However, I think you're mistaken to believe that Indian or Chinese corruption is as bad as Russian, as a percentage of GDP.

I am ready to be proved wrong, however, if you can find statistics which go beyond the anecdotal.

Actually it's immaterial really if Russian corruption is as bad as Indian or Chinese. Although i do stand by what i said.
The point is, that if India and China can achieve what they have with 'high' levels of corruption then no reason why Russia cannot. And remember neither India or China are blessed with such vast quantities of natural resources as Russia.

ReallyGreatConcerts
03-08-2010, 20:49
I beg to differ; however, beyond that, I have to say that I'm shocked -- absolutely flabbergasted -- to hear you eulogising about any empire. Dear, oh dear. It seems your ideas really aren't borne out of any founding principles or thought. Repeat after me: what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I see now why you're so inconsistent.

"eulogise" is a transitive verb, and takes an accusative object. You can't eulogise "about" something... as any fule know, Mr CardBoard.

Being a vegetarian, I don't eat geese - with or without sauce. Gander International Airport - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:CYQX.jpg" class="image"><img alt="CYQX.jpg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/CYQX.jpg/220px-CYQX.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/9/9d/CYQX.jpg/220px-CYQX.jpg Gander is an airport in Canada, I believe. Where the geese come from.

Trying to hold me ideological hostage for the naughty misdemeanours of the Russian Empire isn't merely an anachronism, but also reveals you as an apostle of the famous historian Mr Percy Phlage.


Actually it's immaterial really if Russian corruption is as bad as Indian or Chinese. Although i do stand by what i said.
The point is, that if India and China can achieve what they have with 'high' levels of corruption then no reason why Russia cannot. And remember neither India or China are blessed with such vast quantities of natural resources as Russia.

Oh lawks, I've even found myself agreeing with Mr Numbnuts.

The word "chinovnik" derives from the "Chinn" - the Russian system of governance throughout its Empire era (viz from Peter I, the first Imperator onwards). Essentially it turns a blind eye to corruption provided the job gets done - in fact, it encourages corruption if the job gets done faster because of it. One of the earliest examples was Prince Menshikov, to whom the construction of the city of St Petersburg was entrusted while the Emperor was off fighting the Great Northern Wars and putting down the Khovansky Uprising in Moscow. When Peter returned to Moscow, Menshikov wasn't completely able to account for what had become of the massive treasury he'd been allocated for the project.... but greatly increased girth, advanced alcoholism and incipient syphilis provided certain clues as to where the money had gone. However, the city had been built, and despite the small irk that Menshikov's private palace had been completed before the Tsar's own, Peter laughed it all off as "Well, Menshikov will be Menshikov!". This ushered-in an era in which money-trousering among the State's more flamboyant servants has never really been treated too seriously. Like the contemporary Chinese system, they know they're all crooks... and the ability to reel them in at any time without even having to fabricate any charges against them is a useful and efficient method of governance.

Of course, a civilised and pukka country like GB would never wink at crooks, would it?

http://www.bushywood.com/humour_images/lord_archer_ermine.jpg http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2010/07/prescott12.jpg http://seeker401.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/article-1076888-021853cc000005dc-504_468x432.jpg

Jack17
03-08-2010, 20:50
Actually it's immaterial really if Russian corruption is as bad as Indian or Chinese. Although i do stand by what i said.
The point is, that if India and China can achieve what they have with 'high' levels of corruption then no reason why Russia cannot. And remember neither India or China are blessed with such vast quantities of natural resources as Russia.
Nobby, I think you're getting to the heart of the issue; it's not corruption, it's capital. Money is available to the entrepreneur in India and China either through commercial lenders or private money. There is a very long tradition of lending for commercial purposes in China, I'm less familiar with India; but at any rate, it must be more prevalent than in Russia. If you combine your observation with Annasophia's comments on Russian society, you have a reasonably good explanation of the problem. In Russia, community consists of one's family and friends. The criteria for helping or lending anything in Russia is a personal knowledge and affection for the individual. It's difficult to build an entrepreneurial economy on such a constricted basis. The oligarchs and their once, twice and thrice removed friends have all the money they need and they are not inclined to put it at risk for anyone or anything. I'm sure most Gasprom profits sit quite comfortably and securely every year in Swiss banks. It's really an issue of culture; in China, there is a long history of a lending and entreprenuerial culture whereas in Russia there is none. As one Russian Jewish friend put it so eloquently to me, "You see, all these people are the descendents of slaves/serfs - Lenin and Stalin killed all the aristocrats and kulaks; only we Jews were never slaves." 70 years of Communism, more or less, did create one class in Russia; unfortunately, it was not an entrepreneurial class.

As for corruption, let me ask Carbo or anyone, if you were wealthy, where would you rather live, Russia or the UK/US? I think if Russia didn't exist, the wealthy would have to create it. Where money is at issue, I'll go so far as to say there's more justice in Russia than in the US. I've had the unpleasant experience of trying to resolve business issues in the US Courts. Just to file a civil suit in a California Court will cost you $20,000 and the attorney bills will easily be 2 to 3 times that by the time you are finished in Court - win or lose! Let me ask, how much justice can you buy in Russia for $20K or $60K, provided you know the right people, or know the people who know the right people? No, for most business people in the US, justice is illusory - but the money is real.

Jack17
03-08-2010, 20:56
"eulogise" is a transitive verb, and takes an accusative object. You can't eulogise "about" something... as any fule know, Mr CardBoard.

Being a vegetarian, I don't eat geese - with or without sauce. Gander International Airport - Wikipedia, the free [email]encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gander_International_Airport) is an airport in Canada, I believe. Where the geese come from.

Trying to hold me ideological hostage for the naughty misdemeanours of the Russian Empire isn't merely an anachronism, but also reveals you as an apostle of the famous historian Mr Percy Phlage.
RGC, if you don't smoke dope or drink Vodka, then please go to the Apoteka and buy some Zoloft or something to take the edge off and dilute the venom.

However, I do admire your English and sardonic wit.

Willy
03-08-2010, 21:33
What do you think are the biggest problems facing Russia which are preventing progress being made?

For my two penny worth I would say the biggest threats are corruption and bureaucracy.

Without tackling corruption and bureaucracy, no innovative economy can appear.




People like you are.

Irina909
03-08-2010, 22:03
Today it is the heat and fires! Whose fault is that? :wavey:

TolkoRaz
03-08-2010, 22:05
Willy,

As a matter of interest, as Gypsy is clearly a hinderance, how are you helping The Russian Federation to progress? :coffee:

TolkoRaz
03-08-2010, 22:05
Today it is the heat and fires! Whose fault is that? :wavey:

I blame it on the smokers! :rasta:

alouette
03-08-2010, 22:14
' When Peter returned to Moscow, Menshikov wasn't completely able to account for what had become of the massive treasury he'd been allocated for the project.... but greatly increased girth, advanced alcoholism and incipient syphilis provided certain clues as to where the money had gone. However, the city had been built, and despite the small irk that Menshikov's private palace had been completed before the Tsar's own, Peter laughed it all off as "Well, Menshikov will be Menshikov!".

And it's well known Menshikov was a favourite of Peter the Great and even so he was accused by State chancellery of spending public funds on his own needs. But of course his penalty didn't come close to those who wasn't that lucky to be a favourite. He just lost a post of chief executive in Military board, when others lost their lives.

alouette
03-08-2010, 22:20
Willy,

As a matter of interest, as Gypsy is clearly a hinderance, how are you helping The Russian Federation to progress? :coffee:

Have you meant hindrance?

tvadim133
03-08-2010, 22:22
' When Peter returned to Moscow, Menshikov wasn't completely able to account for what had become of the massive treasury he'd been allocated for the project.... but greatly increased girth, advanced alcoholism and incipient syphilis provided certain clues as to where the money had gone. However, the city had been built, and despite the small irk that Menshikov's private palace had been completed before the Tsar's own, Peter laughed it all off as "Well, Menshikov will be Menshikov!".

And it's well known Menshikov was a favourite of Peter the Great and even so he was accused by State chancellery of spending public funds on his own needs. But of course his penalty didn't come close to those who wasn't that lucky to be a favourite. He just lost a post of chief executive in Military board, when others lost their lives.

But at the end he and his family were exciled to Siberia without any money!

No Menshikov family afterwords in the history of Russia!

Gypsy
03-08-2010, 22:24
Today it is the heat and fires! Whose fault is that? :wavey:

Sorry - that was me.

alouette
03-08-2010, 22:40
But at the end he and his family were exciled to Siberia without any money!

No Menshikov family afterwords in the history of Russia!

Unlike some families now. And I shouldn't point it out, just switch on the telly.

Willy
03-08-2010, 22:47
Willy,

As a matter of interest, as Gypsy is clearly a hinderance, how are you helping The Russian Federation to progress? :coffee:



I'm adding to the population.

TolkoRaz
03-08-2010, 22:55
I'm adding to the population.

God help Russia! ;)

Matt24
03-08-2010, 23:06
God help Russia! ;)

Amen

alouette
03-08-2010, 23:08
God help Russia! ;)

And HE WILL!

TolkoRaz
03-08-2010, 23:09
She needs it along with some heaven sent rain!

Willy
03-08-2010, 23:11
God help Russia! ;)



I don't think it's my place to come here and tell Russians how they should do things in THEIR country.

I did not grow up here, I wasn't born here, and I feel no right to tell them they're doing something wrong. I find it rude and arrogant. If they ask for my help I will, but I'm not going to start threads like whats wrong with place or why do they do that?

I've been here long enough to know that Russians can be very polite to rude people, but this kind of stuff makes them mad and doesn't make you look any better in their eyes.

Willy
03-08-2010, 23:12
Willy,

As a matter of interest, as Gypsy is clearly a hinderance, how are you helping The Russian Federation to progress? :coffee:



Can I ask what you do here?

TolkoRaz
03-08-2010, 23:16
Can I ask what you do here?

You can, but I shan't answer! :p

But I can confirm that I am not assisting in raising the Federation's population and I'm definitely have less s*x than you! :bookworm:

Other than that, I do as little as possible for the most amount of money and it pays extremely well! :)

tvadim133
03-08-2010, 23:18
I don't think it's my place to come here and tell Russians how they should do things in THEIR country.

I did not grow up here, I wasn't born here, and I feel no right to tell them they're doing something wrong. I find it rude and arrogant. If they ask for my help I will, but I'm not going to start threads like whats wrong with place or why do they do that?

I've been here long enough to know that Russians can be very polite to rude people, but this kind of stuff makes them mad and doesn't make you look any better in their eyes.

Yes, there is a proverb: В чужой монастырь со своим уставом не ходят ( you shoud not come to a monastary with your own rules).

But I think, that here we are all discussing, not teaching each other!

:)

Gypsy
03-08-2010, 23:30
Yes, there is a proverb: В чужой монастырь со своим уставом не ходят ( you shoud not come to a monastary with your own rules).

But I think, that here we are all discussing, not teaching each other!

:)

Exactly TVA. And every single word I posted came straight, unchanged, from President Medvedev last wednesday. (Assuming the translation in the Moscow Times was correct that is.)

Imagine you are invited to dinner. The host brings in some fish and the opens a bottle of heavy red wine.

Now, if I as a guest said "Oy you don't serve heavy reds with fish" then went and opened a bottle of white, that would be rude.

If, on the other hand the host said "Do you think this will go with the fish?" I would answer, "I' d have thought, a light white?" but leave the decision to him.

That is not rude, it is offering an opinion. Does not force anybody to do anything, it is not telling anybody to do anything. It is an opinion.

And I have yet to meet a russian who had such a closed mind that they resented an opinion or suggestion being given. I have found them to be very open to it actually.

Finally, I own a business here, pay taxes here, employ people here so I am entitled to an opinion. And the progress of the government's modernisation program is important for my business and for most expats so it is a suitable subject for discussion.

And to offer an opinion that is word for word the same as that of the President cannot by definition be rude.

Willy
03-08-2010, 23:31
You can, but I shan't answer! :p

But I can confirm that I am not assisting in raising the Federation's population and I'm definitely have less s*x than you! :bookworm:

Other than that, I do as little as possible for the most amount of money and it pays extremely well! :)




How can I get a gig like that?

That is if it doesn't involve big hair men and oil.

TolkoRaz
03-08-2010, 23:34
How can I get a gig like that?

That is if it doesn't involve big hair men and oil.

Spend less time chasing young girls and concentrate on building yourself a fortune and trying to be the best in one's chosen field :10189:

Willy
03-08-2010, 23:36
Yes, there is a proverb: В чужой монастырь со своим уставом не ходят ( you shoud not come to a monastary with your own rules).

But I think, that here we are all discussing, not teaching each other!

:)



That's what I like about you tvadim, always the peace keeper.


But this thread is pissing off others. And this kind of stuff should be kept to a minimum. There's another site where they love this kind of threads. But they don't have as many Russians there.

Willy
03-08-2010, 23:38
Spend less time chasing young girls and concentrate on building yourself a fortune and trying to be the best in one's chosen field :10189:



I am the best one in my chosen field.

tvadim133
03-08-2010, 23:40
That's what I like about you tvadim, always the peace keeper.


But this thread is pissing off others. And this kind of stuff should be kept to a minimum. There's another site where they love this kind of threads. But they don't have as many Russians there.

Why do you think, this thread is pissing off others (probably, quite few)?

The was a question (the thread's subject), then there are some opinions, arguments and just "attitudes" posted by both locals and expats?

So what is the problem?

TolkoRaz
03-08-2010, 23:40
I am the best one in my chosen field.

I doubt that very much.

You proudly told us all yesterday that your girlfriend and your wife would be there with you today. If so, WTF are you doing here now? :confused:

Have they both blown you out? :confused1:

Willy
03-08-2010, 23:52
Exactly TVA. And every single word I posted came straight, unchanged, from President Medvedev last wednesday. (Assuming the translation in the Moscow Times was correct that is.)

Imagine you are invited to dinner. The host brings in some fish and the opens a bottle of heavy red wine.

Now, if I as a guest said "Oy you don't serve heavy reds with fish" then went and opened a bottle of white, that would be rude.

If, on the other hand the host said "Do you think this will go with the fish?" I would answer, "I' d have thought, a light white?" but leave the decision to him.

That is not rude, it is offering an opinion. Does not force anybody to do anything, it is not telling anybody to do anything. It is an opinion.

And I have yet to meet a russian who had such a closed mind that they resented an opinion or suggestion being given. I have found them to be very open to it actually.

Finally, I own a business here, pay taxes here, employ people here so I am entitled to an opinion. And the progress of the government's modernisation program is important for my business and for most expats so it is a suitable subject for discussion.

And to offer an opinion that is word for word the same as that of the President cannot by definition be rude.



So you started this thread to get what?

You know what people would say, so your trolling?

You said it before that expats can't whine on this site, to many Russians so you must be here to stir things up.



The President can say anything he wants, he was born here and he will die here too. You don't see the difference? You make it sound like he ask for your opinion. Where you going Gypsy when you make all your money? You staying here? Or did you come just to make a buck?

zingo
03-08-2010, 23:52
Willy,

As a matter of interest, as Gypsy is clearly a hinderance, how are you helping The Russian Federation to progress? :coffee:

Ho ho you are rude with the gypsy, there!!!

He helps by His presence, He is our new Guide forever! Let's write to Yuri to get His metro station Gypsyzkaya !!!

zingo
03-08-2010, 23:53
And HE WILL!

And he did :)
And he does :)

homa
03-08-2010, 23:55
The biggest problem is indifference. And lack of self-respect. No one cares about anything. Just go to the nearest beach - it's a dumping ground and among all the mess are the people, but they don't care.

Willy
03-08-2010, 23:57
I doubt that very much.

You proudly told us all yesterday that your girlfriend and your wife would be there with you today. If so, WTF are you doing here now? :confused:

Have they both blown you out? :confused1:



No I said I was going to meet my new girlfriend, I don't think my wife wants to meet her, and I think my girlfriend feels the same.

Can you please tell my why you think I'm not a good drummer?

Jack17
04-08-2010, 00:01
Where you going Gypsy when you make all your money? You staying here? Or did you come just to make a buck?

Gypsy, you're no Willy, I'm sorry to say. By his own admission, he's making nothing going nowhere.

Jack17
04-08-2010, 00:05
No I said I was going to meet my new girlfriend, I don't think my wife wants to meet her, and I think my girlfriend feels the same.

Can you please tell my why you think I'm not a good drummer?
Say, how did the big date go anyway Willy? I'm sure there are other expat readers who want to hear the latest news about the rake's progress.

TolkoRaz
04-08-2010, 00:13
Can you please tell my why you think I'm not a good drummer?

Because you are too busy always blowing your own trumpet! :neiner:

Willy
04-08-2010, 00:23
Because you are too busy always blowing your own trumpet! :neiner:



Finally you make a half decent joke.


So you know nothing.

Willy
04-08-2010, 00:25
Gypsy, you're no Willy, I'm sorry to say. By his own admission, he's making nothing going nowhere.



And all that matters is money right Jack?


Who makes more has more rights?

Willy
04-08-2010, 00:44
See what tvadim says in this thread, good advice.

http://www.expat.ru/forum/showthread.php?t=235249

Jack17
04-08-2010, 00:52
And all that matters is money right Jack?


Who makes more has more rights?
No, taking care of and loving one's children is any man's greatest responsibility; but that does take money.

MickeyTong
04-08-2010, 01:02
Countries which have done best have been freest for longest, giving(?!?!!?!?!) their people life and liberty and the ability to pursue happiness. This gives people something to live for, liberating them to invent, to innovate, to strive, to take risks for gain, and to succeed.

What? Ruling classes everywhere only give scraps.

YouTube- What Have The Unions Ever Done For Us?

MickeyTong
04-08-2010, 01:18
Imagine you are invited to dinner. The host brings in some fish and the opens a bottle of heavy red wine.

Now, if I as a guest said "Oy you don't serve heavy reds with fish" then went and opened a bottle of white, that would be rude.

If, on the other hand the host said "Do you think this will go with the fish?" I would answer, "I' d have thought, a light white?" but leave the decision to him.

That is not rude, it is offering an opinion. Does not force anybody to do anything, it is not telling anybody to do anything. It is an opinion.



And then you say: "Blin!? Don't you have any sense of taste? And your curtains are hideous; your sofa is lumpy; your wife wears too much makeup; your son needs to wash more often; your daughter dresses like a prostitute; your neighbourhood is a slum; and your whole nation are just crooks or victims...."

MickeyTong
04-08-2010, 01:23
YouTube- Learned Helplessness

Willy
04-08-2010, 01:36
No, taking care of and loving one's children is any man's greatest responsibility; but that does take money.



How much money Jack?


I had an Uncle that did very well for himself, had a house with five bathrooms and two dinning rooms, big pool, worked like a bastard all his life for his family. Gave them all they could want.
Used to give me sh!t all the time about how could I live like that, with lots of friends, spending as much time as could with them. Wanting to be with my family and didn't care much about making the big bucks.


One of the last times I talked to him just before he died he told me he was sorry for giving me sh!t and that I may have been right. You see Jack he was so busy working and making it big he had very little time at home, when he got cancer and was dying he very much want to spend time with his kids but they were gone, had their own life and hardly knew him. He missed it because he now understood you can't make up for lost time but you can make up for lost money.

I'm happy with my life Jack and I wouldn't change a thing, why because it was my life and I did things how I wanted.

And one thing I learned is nobody is better than anyone else.

Carbo
04-08-2010, 08:38
"eulogise" is a transitive verb, and takes an accusative object. You can't eulogise "about" something... as any fule know, Mr CardBoard.

Are you really sure that you want to play that game?

Especially when you're wrong. The Cambridge Dictionary says that not only can one pair the verb eulogize with a preposition, but that it usually is:


eulogize verb (UK usually eulogise) /ˈjuː.lə.dʒaɪz/ [T I usually + adverb or preposition] formal
to praise someone or something in a speech or piece of writing

Critics everywhere have eulogized her new novel.
They eulogized over the breathtaking views.


Oh dear. Oh dear for you.


Trying to hold me ideological hostage for the naughty misdemeanours of the Russian Empire isn't merely an anachronism, but also reveals you as an apostle of the famous historian Mr Percy Phlage.

I'm not holding you ideological hostage -- just wondering why you want to endorse it when the very concept of empire seems against everything for which you stand.

You don't have to explain yourself to me or anyone else, of course.

Willy
04-08-2010, 08:46
Good morning Carbo!


Great way to start the day huh?


Looks like it going to be a hot one!



I mean on the street.

Nothing like sweaty balls sticking to your leg to remind you life sucks.

Willy
04-08-2010, 08:53
And then you say: "Blin!? Don't you have any sense of taste? And your curtains are hideous; your sofa is lumpy; your wife wears too much makeup; your son needs to wash more often; your daughter dresses like a prostitute; your neighbourhood is a slum; and your whole nation are just crooks or victims...."



Have you been to my home while I was gone?

sashadidi
07-08-2010, 11:18
People like you are.

would therapy help you

ReallyGreatConcerts
07-08-2010, 11:46
Critics everywhere have eulogized her new novel.

[/INDENT]
.

Yes. Accusative.

Must be sad to be you.

Willy
07-08-2010, 12:11
would therapy help you



Why do you think I need it?

Bluesstation
31-08-2010, 03:23
mmm sounds just like the uk corruption and bureaucracy in government here as well Nothing changes in any country I guess

Gypsy
31-08-2010, 08:51
mmm sounds just like the uk corruption and bureaucracy in government here as well Nothing changes in any country I guess

I cannot comment with any accuracy on the UK since I haven't lived there for a long time, but how is your comment relevant to the thread which is about President Medvedev's campaign to increase awareness within Russia of the problems of corruption, and how it has become the biggest obstacle to modernisation in Russia?

Willy
31-08-2010, 09:17
YouTube- Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick - Madison Square Garden 1978

Gypsy
31-08-2010, 09:50
Apologies Bluesstation - there is a troll here who follows people around on various threads and instead of contributing to th debate just posts YOUTUBE clips, usually as insults, thus Thick as a Brick is an insult aimed at either you or me. I suspect it is me, but you never know.

Please don't let him stop you from posting your views, we do have freedom of speech here.

Willy
31-08-2010, 11:17
YouTube- Jackyl - Push Comes To Shove

TolkoRaz
31-08-2010, 12:42
YouTube- Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick - Madison Square Garden 1978 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toHlMD50eYY)

Willy, I see that you are still being your charming self and insulting people!

Willy
31-08-2010, 13:23
YouTube- Foesum - Some Things Never Change (G Funk)

Joe Kilroy
31-08-2010, 18:34
Must say, as a teacher who has been in Moscow for 5 years, I have noticed one thing. In fact, I've noticed quite a few things, but this one is relevant to the thread. I have worked in a lot of banks and I know that many or most Russians like this are struggling on bad wages to build a life here. And many, many of my students have been talented intelligent young Russians who were desperately trying to leave Russia. Many of them have done, and many are doing so every year. These are people who don't want to bring children up here, and want to go abroad to give them a better start in life. Im not a father, I don't have kids, so I don't really give a rat's arse about that, but I think it is sad and bad for the future of a country when many thousands of its youngest and best brains have only one idea in their heads - To escape the land where they were born. What are you left with? What happens when you have a lovely salad and someone keeps stealing the olives and the shrimps and the avocado and the fettucini? What happens is this - All you are left with is tasteless droopy lettuce leaves. Bon appetit.

xSnoofovich
31-08-2010, 18:37
Of course the guys you meet speak english, and want to learn english. there are many more people (in that same bank) that don't know english, dont want to study it, and are quite happy here.

Something to think about- prob aren't too many pink cars in moscow, unless you sit down and actually start to look for them, then one thinks to themselves, wow ! how many pink cars there, how did i not see this before? (if u look for it, u will find it)


Must say, as a teacher who has been in Moscow for 5 years, I have noticed one thing. In fact, I've noticed quite a few things, but this one is relevant to the thread. I have worked in a lot of banks and I know that many or most Russians like this are struggling on bad wages to build a life here. And many, many of my students have been talented intelligent young Russians who were desperately trying to leave Russia. Many of them have done, and many are doing so every year. These are people who don't want to bring children up here, and want to go abroad to give them a better start in life. Im not a father, I don't have kids, so I don't really give a rat's arse about that, but I think it is sad and bad for the future of a country when many thousands of its youngest and best brains have only one idea in their heads - To escape the land where they were born. What are you left with? What happens when you have a lovely salad and someone keeps stealing the olives and the shrimps and the avocado and the fettucini? What happens is this - All you are left with is tasteless droopy lettuce leaves. Bon appetit.

Joe Kilroy
31-08-2010, 19:12
Of course the guys you meet speak english, and want to learn english. there are many more people (in that same bank) that don't know english, dont want to study it, and are quite happy here.

Something to think about- prob aren't too many pink cars in moscow, unless you sit down and actually start to look for them, then one thinks to themselves, wow ! how many pink cars there, how did i not see this before? (if u look for it, u will find it)

In the banks where I worked, the vast majority of employees were studying English in my groups and all saw it necessary for their career and life prospects. There are lots of Russians trying to advance themselves and get ahead, they are pro-active and not giving up. The ones who didn't want to study, they were generally more apathetic and content to keep picking up their 20,000 rb a month salary. All I am saying is that a large number of dynamic and gifted Russians are leaving to live abroad. And in reference to the thread title, I would say this is a big problem facing Russia, maybe one it has always faced. There are many people in the UK who I know who have lived on the same grim council estate since they were born, and who's idea of happiness is to watch 40 hours of TV per week, smoke 20 B + H every day and go on holiday to Butlins once a year. Are they happy? As happy as pigs in shit, but I suppose it depends what you want from life. Nobody wants to leave their home country if they can help it, it's not an easy thing to do. I saw the figures for the numbers leaving Russia every year. Can't quote them off the top of my head, but it was a lot, and a damn site more than there are pink cars in Moscow. I've never seen one.

Unreal
02-09-2010, 01:00
Joe, most of the people that study foreign language just want to study it. This cannot be used as a sign of their intention to leave the country. Also, many people want to work abroad - but not want to leave the country forever. Anyway, the emigration rate is lowering. And what is more important - I suppose it will lower further because of crisis.

Main problem is corruption I suppose. Also alcohol, drugs, unmotivated aggression.. But all these are the consequences of quality of the nation.

Joe Kilroy
02-09-2010, 02:35
Joe, most of the people that study foreign language just want to study it. This cannot be used as a sign of their intention to leave the country. Also, many people want to work abroad - but not want to leave the country forever. Anyway, the emigration rate is lowering. And what is more important - I suppose it will lower further because of crisis.

Main problem is corruption I suppose. Also alcohol, drugs, unmotivated aggression.. But all these are the consequences of quality of the nation.

I hope the emigration rate does lower, and Russians become happy and proud to live in Russia. I want Russians and Russia to be proud and happy. They deserve it, after all they have been through. I get angry with what happens because I care. I am not trying to bring Russia down, just the opposite. I am happy to see that most of my students and friends want to stay and contribute to Russia and build a future. And I am sure that many who have left will come back one day. Let's hope so.