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eliv
23-06-2010, 15:27
Hi all,
I am supposed to move to Moscow with a UK company/Bank to their office in Moscow. They have applied for my work permit at the end of April. I supplied a photo copy of my passport, passport photo scan, and apostle scan of my Uni diploma.

Two weeks ago 7/June/2010, I was informed that my work permit has been rejected, when I asked why and reason they didn't say anything as its just rejected and no farther reason. This seems very strange as I spoke with some Russian friends and Expats and they told me they never heard such a thing before.

Does anyone been in this kind of situation, know anyone who can help shed light of this, any appeal procedures?

Any information will be highly appreciated.

Thanks

Eli

Viola
23-06-2010, 15:30
The reason could be that your potential employer exhauasted their quota for foreign employees. In such case they need to apply for addiditonal quota and this is a looong process.

FatAndy
23-06-2010, 15:35
I'm not the specialist, but Russian Federation has quotas of foreign employees for every other country. Maybe UK quota was exhausted...

Or you made not a full heap of required docs (bureaucracy is strong)...

Or you had contacts with non-desired persons before...

Or your employer has current issues with Russian authorities...

Or...

Etc.

eliv
23-06-2010, 15:45
Thanks for the swift replies, from what I understand my employers quota is fine, I did not had any contact with non desired persons before. I guess that the situation could be of the bank relationship with the authorities, but its all speculation.

I am not getting any info from Moscow HR about this.

do you know of anyone who had this kind of problem?
Do you think with the new rules from July 1st (the ease of work permit for highly skilled people) will make a big change?
As well can one appeal on these rejection, or just re-apply again?
Should i try to do a TRP myself ?

Thanks for your help

tvadim133
23-06-2010, 16:19
Well, I have never heard that someone was rejected in case the company have not overlimited their quota.

That is more, you work in a bank, not in a foundation or smth like that.

I have never heard any troubles between banks and authorities

and you had no criminal records (may be aids veneral tests have not bee "good"?) and so on, it would be quite strange.

Actually the authorities now explain in the majority of cases, what was done wrong or your HR must know where they can send a claim (a higher level of authorities).

For high rating specialists there must be a very high level of salary (I do not remember but smth like or about 80 000 USD per year).

what is one of the way out is to get a year business visa and to live here (and to work) according to it.

It works if your company is international, but in this case you will not able to be paid by local accountant department but by your head office's.

eliv
23-06-2010, 16:27
Thx tvadim133, i fully understand how strange it is! I have a passport that has a visa free entrance to Russia so i don't even need a visa to go in as i have two passports.

If i have this passport with a visa free do i still need a work visa??

Do you or anyone know an agency that can clarify this matter, regarding to the whole situation.

Thx

EV

Ian G
23-06-2010, 16:34
eliv I am afraid you do need a work permit, even though you do not need a visa.The problem could be- for whatever reason- that the company hasn't recieved the necessary permission to employ you. Probably the best solution is for your company's London office to continue employing you, and paying you, in Britain. Then you would be on a business trip in Russia. If necessary, with a business visa, but this may not be necessary if your passport allows you to stay in Russia.

You say yoou have two passports- is one of the Russian? If so you should have no problem working here.

eliv
23-06-2010, 16:53
Hi Ian G, Thx for they reply, i have a British and an Israeli (visa free) passports.
If i had a Russian i don't think there will be any issue ; )

So you suggesting that i should be employed by London and do working business trips to Russia, or stay in Moscow be employed in London and get in and out every 90 days according to the visa limitations?

I read a lot about the new highly skilled ease, do you think that can change the complexity and make things easer?

Last question, what do you mean that company hasn't recieved the necessary permission to employ me? I should be a proper straight forward process as i am sent by the company to work in their Moscow office , internally it is fine, the problem is external i guess unless the Russian office has different agenda.

SV1973a
23-06-2010, 16:54
For high rating specialists there must be a very high level of salary (I do not remember but smth like or about 80 000 USD per year).

It is 2 million roubles.

SV1973a
23-06-2010, 16:58
I read a lot about the new highly skilled ease, do you think that can change the complexity and make things easer?

YES, it SHOULD be easier, but it only comes into force on 1st of July, and then we will still have to see how it turns out in reality.
Main issues is that your salary is over 2 M roubles and that the employer is a Russian company or a branch office. (representative office or marketing office is not good)

eliv
23-06-2010, 17:09
Thx SV1973a, yes I do qualify for that specialist in salary terms as it like $64k a year or 45k, and the employer is a full Russian entity.
I guess you are right we will just need to wait and see how the theory turns in to reality.

But does anyone know once an application is rejected (on a non criminal or character basis) , can one appeal or just resubmit? as i have a feeling that someone messed up the application. So is it possible to reapply?

Cooldude
23-06-2010, 17:11
Thx tvadim133, i fully understand how strange it is! I have a passport that has a visa free entrance to Russia so i don't even need a visa to go in as i have two passports.

If i have this passport with a visa free do i still need a work visa??

Do you or anyone know an agency that can clarify this matter, regarding to the whole situation.

Thx

EV

Well, that really depends on the passport you have. You probably got bad advice initially, or the paperwork that was submitted with your application wasn't up to scratch (through no fault of yours) which is the most likely reason for an application being rejected.
It is also not clear from your post whether your application was declined or simply rejected without any documents being actually submitted.

Anyway, feel free to PM me if you need help with that. I'm not in the business of work permit processing, but know people who are.

eliv
23-06-2010, 17:31
Hi Cooldude, sent you a PM, I hear you that's what i am thinking that the application was not filled properly, and someone messed it up. Now i am trying to become an expert on this issue and re-applying or appealing.

is it straight forward, or if rejected you are doomed?

tgma
24-06-2010, 09:30
We had this situation at the beginning of last year, and I heard that quite a few people had this problem. Partly the issue was that the FMS reduced its quotas, and indeed there were rumours that a ridiculously small number of places were allocated to UK citizens. However, I'm pretty sure that there is no official national allocation, as this is probably illegal, but this would not stop the FMS operating some ridiculous informal quota.

It turned out that the reason for our rejection was a screw-up by the agents handling the application - they had not put the required advertisement in the Moscow Labour Department, to prove that they had tried to fill the job with a Russian. Of course, we only found out about this a long time later - one of the reasons for handling these things internally is that you can see where things go wrong, and agents often lie to you. We resolved it eventually, and I'm pretty certain that your situation can be resolved.

This of course, assumes that your employer wants to resolve it - I know of one case where a foreigner lost his job, because his employer was unable to renew his work permit. However, the employer was a huge Russian oligarch group (think Greek letters), and there is no way that they could not resolve this situation, if they so wished. So it was clear that they were just using the situation as a way of getting rid of him, and possibly using it as force majeure to get out of paying a contract.

If it seems that your employer really wants to bring you on board, there are plenty of agents around who can deal with this. We are using Smithbridge at the moment, but I can put you in touch with a number of others, if you want. Also, they might want to contact the American Chamber of Commerce or European Business Club, as both these organisations can help a lot in this regard.

Matt24
24-06-2010, 10:07
Hi Cooldude, sent you a PM, I hear you that's what i am thinking that the application was not filled properly, and someone messed it up. Now i am trying to become an expert on this issue and re-applying or appealing.

is it straight forward, or if rejected you are doomed?

Don't assume that there is any rational explanation, we had two similar cases last year, where the authorities had just made mistakes/couldn't be bothered, by going to them pre-appeal and asking very politely, (with a great deal of flattery), "How we could avoid wasting their time next time, could they please help us stupid foreigners, by explaining what was wrong with the applications they had rejected", and our HR was able to get the WP's, there was a ritual 'telling off' for a non existent error, and our HR was everso grateful for the support and kindness of the authorities - no money / gifts nothing - always worth a try, being nice to the authorities and giving them an opportunity not to have to admit to an error works often and on many levels. Just a thought, BTW these discussions should be done by your Russian staff, not you - you have to be completely fluent and culturally immersed to get away with this kind of manipulation.



Good luck

Matt

Darya Alexandrovna
24-06-2010, 17:04
Check out the law on this procedure. I have ricently read an article on that in Moscow Times.
The law # 86-FZ (May 19th 2010 and is comming in force on July 1st)
My be there is a point to wait?;)
Cause the whole procedure will get much more easier.
I have the file with this article in my PC, but it is heavy, so can not upload it here. If you are interested, can sent it to you via email.
Ciao!

eliv
24-06-2010, 22:18
Thank you for your kind replies and help in the matter.

I must stress that local HR just wanted me to supply them 2 things for the application:
1. Scanned Copies of my passports
2. Scanned Passport size photo.

That's all!

I did at a later date sent them as well a scanned Apostille of my Masters Diploma,
I wasn't asked to take any medical tests, but I am all clear and very married with no criminal record.

so on the back of these 2 things my WP got rejected and when i spoke with local HR (who is not Russian she is from anther eastern non Russian speaking country) she told me that the the Central Bank rejected the permit (not going to work at the central bank!!! so didn't understand the answer), and no other details as well as they didn't give London HR any reason as i been told for any rejection there should be a letter explaining the reason.

Does any one knows what else i should have supplied or they forgotten to ask me to supply, or process i needed to go through?

It seems that the local HR is not very experienced in is sorting this matter.... ;(

Thanks for the support again and the help,

EliV

inorcist
25-06-2010, 01:45
When I was transfered to Moscow from Zurich what they needed was:
- A copy of my bachelor and masters diploma (in English or Russian)
- from what I remember 1'000 passport size photos
- a signed letter that I had accepted the offer under the given conditions
- copy of my passport (and Swiss residency as I am not a Swiss citizen)
- a letter from my Swiss HR department that states my work experience

Actually, one question. Do your job and the subject you studied match? I know of one guy who had similar problems getting his work permit because he had studied medicine but was working for a bank (despite 10 years of work experience in a bank). This issue should be solved with the new WP process.

I forgot: they asked for a CV as well

eliv
25-06-2010, 01:51
Hi inorcist,

My masters deploma is in finance, so that should be ok, on that front.
No other things were requsted by the local HR, just a copy of the passport and a scaned photo, as they said they will print one locally on a photo paper......

Did your friend managed to resolve the issue?

Thanks

Eliv

inorcist
25-06-2010, 02:20
He did eventually. As fas as I know, the local HR department needed to explain to the authorities that it is not uncommon in the Anglo-American world to have a job that is completely different from what one studied. But he was stuck in London for about eight months or so.

eliv
25-06-2010, 14:20
Thanks Mat24,

I appreciate the Russian diplomacy tip, I understand that these should be made by my Russian stuff, but seems like something went wrong in between the HR end to the authorities. The London HR doesnt know the rules and way of conduct in Russia and they are totaly dependant on the info provided by the HR local office, so a bit of a blunder.
It seems like i am on an education and information mission to the London HR about the rules and how to do's and don't.

But thank you I appreciate your tip and info, as any information from experienced people regarding this issue is highly helpful.

Just a complicated matter to resolve this mess of total broken telephone line, as i said before the local HR told me they applied to the Central Bank and i don't know why they said that as they have nothing to do with my WP.

Thanks again for all your support and help, I am very greatfull for all information and tips regarding to this situation.

Eliv

Mud
28-06-2010, 00:07
Hello eliv and welcome to the Expat.ru forums!

As you can see, there are many people who try to give good advice and helpful information here. I hope that you find it helpful and hope that this issue get sorted out quickly!

Enjoy the site and this community!

All the best!
Mud :)

eliv
28-06-2010, 02:30
Hi Mud,
Thank you very much, very grateful for the information here.

I have two more questions, do i need to make any medical tests or get a certificate of no criminal record from UK police, for the work permit application?

and the 2nd one is if i have a passport that i can enter Russia for 90 days on a vise free does it changes anything?

thanks again for all the info and support.

I will keep updating my situation here.

Eliv

tvadim133
28-06-2010, 11:24
Hi Mud,
Thank you very much, very grateful for the information here.

I have two more questions, do i need to make any medical tests or get a certificate of no criminal record from UK police, for the work permit application?

and the 2nd one is if i have a passport that i can enter Russia for 90 days on a vise free does it changes anything?

thanks again for all the info and support.

I will keep updating my situation here.

Eliv


There must be work permits for any foreign citizens, no matter they need to have VISA or not.

The only exception is done for citizens of Belorussia and Ukraine.

They need to have only registration according to the address they live in Russia.

What I can recommend: in Moscow there are agencies who can do all it for your HR.

Just ask them (HR) to google them.

In case your company is to use only corporate list of providers of services, the HR can ask your company's business travel agency, who can arrange everything.


As for the list of document (use Google translation):

Пакет документов, необходимый для оформления разрешения на работу иностранному гражданину или лицу без гражданства:

Заявление о выдаче иностранному гражданину или лицу без гражданства разрешения на работу, прибывающему в Российскую Федерацию в порядке, требующем получения визы, на каждого привлекаемого иностранного гражданина и его копия. Бланк заявления заполняется на русском языке печатными буквами или в электронном виде, при этом не допускается использование сокращенных слов и аббревиатур. Сведения, указанные в заявлении, должны быть исчерпывающими.
Одна цветная фотография иностранного гражданина размером 30 х 40 мм, которую необходимо приклеить на бланк заявления в соответствующем окне.
Копия документа о профессиональном образовании, квалификации, полученных иностранным работником в иностранном государстве, или справка об эквивалентности такого документа российскому диплому (свидетельству) о профессиональном образовании.
Копия документа (срок действия, которого должен быть не менее 6 месяцев), удостоверяющего личность иностранного работника.
Копия разрешения на привлечение и использование иностранных работников.
Гарантийное письмо об обеспечении работодателем или заказчиком работ (услуг) выезда иностранного работника из Российской Федерации по первому требования ФМС Российской Федерации.
Оригинал платежного документа об уплате государственной пошлины за выдачу разрешения на работу, имея в виду, что за каждого привлекаемого иностранного работника взимается 1000 рублей.
Оформленные на территории иностранных

The official site of FMS:

http://www.fms.gov.ru/documents/withvisa/

eliv
28-06-2010, 11:46
Hi tvadim133,

Thanks again for your reply, do you know any good agencies that can sort/deal with that matter as i am sure there are a lot of them, thus need to find a recommended agency. could you please you please paste a link to these agencies as i don't have Russian on my PC.

Last thing do you think the new rules that come in effect in the next few days will make a real difference?

Rgrds

Eliv

tvadim133
28-06-2010, 12:03
Hi tvadim133,

Thanks again for your reply, do you know any good agencies that can sort/deal with that matter as i am sure there are a lot of them, thus need to find a recommended agency. could you please you please paste a link to these agencies as i don't have Russian on my PC.

Last thing do you think the new rules that come in effect in the next few days will make a real difference?

Rgrds

Eliv

I can not recommend any agencies (Have no experience, but hear they work efficently).

As for links (the 4th, I have found):

http://work-russia.ru/en/work-permits/

As for new rules, let's see.

But I guess it will be easier.

You know, The level of bureaucracy was always high in Russia (even before 1917).

eliv
28-06-2010, 13:04
Thanks tvadim133,

I will have a look through it, and see what my HR comes back with.
For London HR its the first time they are sorting out a Russian work permit and totally dependant on the Local Moscow HR so big broken telephone lines.

As they said they applied for my permit to the Central bank??? and they only had my passport copy, then in end of may they wanted a passport photo from me, and the the last day of may they wanted the diploma from me, which i scanned and sent the scan.
1 week later i have been told its been rejected.

As they didn't have all my docs i don't see how the FMS can even start looking at my file, if at all.

Thanks again!!!

Ian G
28-06-2010, 14:09
eliv-
Here is a good London based agency I have used in the past. They also have an office in Moscow.

http://www.andrews-consulting.co.uk/russia.html

They will certainly be able to advise you. But- if you are going to work in Russia you need a work visa and the employer has to initiate the process. Employers often use agencies for this- (Andrews Consulting provides this kind of service) but of course that is the employer's choice. Other than discusssing things with your employer there is not much you can do. You can't just go to an agency and order a work visa.

So there are 2 questions you could ask your company: are they going to try again to get you a work visa? If so are they going to use a professional agency for this purpose to make sure they get the application right? This is a question for the Moscow office.
OR

Are they happy to send you to Russia on business trips (max. 180 days per year in the country and you would be getting paid outside Russia) instead? This may be a question for your London office rather than the Moscow office.

eliv
28-06-2010, 16:11
Thanks Ian,

Just to make things clear, does a work permit is the same as work visa?

SV1973a
28-06-2010, 16:13
Thanks Ian,

Just to make things clear, does a work permit is the same as work visa?

No, two different things. The work visa is a sticker they put in your passport, the work permit is a separate plastic card.

eliv
28-06-2010, 16:18
OK thanks that makes things a bit clearer.
So first i need an invite, to go to Moscow to get the work visa, once that is granted i need to get out of the country, and get in with my work Visa and then i should be issued with a work permit??

If that correct?

Viola
28-06-2010, 16:32
Your employer shoul arrange your work permit. You can entry the country with whatever valid visa you have. When it expires you could apply for a work visa using your work permit and your employer. As far as I know.

Ian G
28-06-2010, 16:48
As far as I know Israeli passport holders who want to stay in Russia longer than 90 days in a 180 day period need a visa. I may be wrong about this, in which case the following does not apply and all you need is a work permit.

Assuming that it's correct and you want to spend more than half your time in Russia the procedure is something like this:

They get permission to employ you. Then...
1 You go to Moscow.
2 they give you an invitation letter.
3 You leave Russia and get a 3-month single-entry work visa at a Russian embassy (as far as I know, in any country, but this is worth checking) on the basis of that letter, and come back to Russia with it. If they have obtained the work permit for you you can now start working for them.
4 Your employer converts the single-entry work visa to a full multi-entry 1-year work visa without you having to leave the country again.

There may be medical tests to do in Moscow before stage 3.

eliv
28-06-2010, 19:11
Thanks again Ian G,
That's is great information of the procedure Ian.
So basically for a start i just need to get a work visa, while the work permit is in the making !

I will keep updating this as it goes along, so anyone in my situation will be smarter about the full red tape.

Ian G
29-06-2010, 12:12
So basically for a start i just need to get a work visa, while the work permit is in the making !


eliv-
I'm not sure- but I suspect your company will first need to get the work permit, before they can get you the invitation letter. (I forget whether I had to show a copy of the work permit to the consulate in Helsinki when I got - I did this in 2006 I'm sure there are others on expat.ru who have donethis more recently).
But the fact that your passport allows you to be in Russia for 90 days without a visa probably simplifies things a lot for you as you can come to Russia before the work visa invitation is ready.

eliv
29-06-2010, 12:46
Thanks Ian,

I can come and go on a visa free passport, but wanted the work permit to be on the British passport.

Ian do you know of anyone who got rejected as non of my friends in Moscow heard such a thing.

Ian G
29-06-2010, 14:37
eliv-
Soory- I've not heard of people being refused visas-except where there's a clear political reason (normally high profile cases such as that of William Browder).

By the way if you're thinking of using both passports I suggest you consult a specialist. It's possible that Russian law requires you to choose one passport- the passport you enter the country on- and use it for all purposes. So if you have a work visa on a British passport you are here as a Briton and must use your British passport for all purposes, including travel to and from Russia.
That's possible- I am not a lawyer so can't say definitely.

eliv
29-06-2010, 15:14
Thx Ian, That's fair enough, its fine to stick with the UK passport as long as there are visas on it.

I understand the Bill Browder situation in some way, every country has its rules and mentality. One must not forget he is still a guest in the country.

ilya25
30-06-2010, 01:58
here are a few tips for you
a) you should put some pressure on HR via your managers - if there is biz need HR should arrange your move
B) usually large compnies hire special legal advisors to deal with immigration matters
с) i am not sure that israeli passport will help - w/o visa you can enter russia as a tourist or as a biz visitor but you cannot work legally in Russia
d) the fist step is for your company to employ you in russia is to get an employment permit - authorization to hire a foreigner. I am not familiar with hiring banking officers - potentially Central bank may play some role in approving issuance of such doc- not sure
e) if this doc available the company can apply for work visa inviataion and your individual work permit

f) you will need medical tests I think at the stage of getting working visa

inorcist
30-06-2010, 02:15
f) you will need medical tests I think at the stage of getting working visa

Please, correct me if I'm wrong here. My impression is that a medical / HIV test is only needed when you apply for a visa valid for more than 180 days at a consulate outside Russia. If you come to Russia on a 3months business visa and have it convert into a work visa (provided your work permission) no medical checks are needed.

At least this is how it worked out for me and everyone else I know. So, as said, just an impression.

eliv
30-06-2010, 03:15
Thanks Ilya25,

I am sure they have the authorization to hire a foreigner and have quota, even so I believe i will qualify for the new rules for skilled personal starting in July.

Yes i agree that if there is business to be done HR needs to sort it out! and i hope they will, If not i jess i will do it myself with lawyers or legal advisors to deal with immigration situation.

I don't mind the medical tests as long as its in a proper place.

It will be interesting to hear comments on the forum if things have changed from next month.

eliv
06-07-2010, 17:53
Hi all

Does anyone or someone who you know experienced any changes to the FMS with regards to employment of foreigners in Russia, or Highly qualified foreign specialists.

The new rules should have started on the July 1st, are they already active, or being implemented?

Thanks

eliv

Nadia Raspletina
27-08-2010, 17:25
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