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gino
06-04-2005, 11:06
Maybe that open container law that failed wasn't so bad afterall?
This morning I walked through Pushkin Square by the fountain and it was so disgusting. There were literally hundreds of beer bottles all over the fountain walls and the surrounding area. There was also a lot of shattered glass. People suck.

mediashark
06-04-2005, 11:10
You new here or something?

Altogether now: 100 bottles of beer on the wall...

gino
06-04-2005, 11:16
No - I'm not new at all.
I walk through there often and it is not always a mess. Of course this is not new, but I believe what I said is still vaild. Do you disagree that this is disgusting? Do you prefer it?

mediashark
06-04-2005, 11:20
Maybe there was a gathering of sorts the night before?

Well don't worry. Sooner or later the babushkas in trolley bags will collect them bottles. They're disturbingly efficient! :) I think they'll find the fountain to be a treasure mound!

mediashark
06-04-2005, 11:20
...with trolley bags i mean.. ;)

Shatneresque
06-04-2005, 11:22
There should be a subbotnik any weekend now, too, just as soon as some more of the snow melts. Something to look forward to.... :hooray:

mediashark
06-04-2005, 11:24
99 bottles of beer on the wall... :D

pengwn9
06-04-2005, 11:58
Originally posted by gino
Maybe that open container law that failed wasn't so bad afterall?
This morning I walked through Pushkin Square by the fountain and it was so disgusting. There were literally hundreds of beer bottles all over the fountain walls and the surrounding area. There was also a lot of shattered glass. People suck.

I don't think that the real problem is the drinking of beer. The real problems are (a) people in this country seem to think that's it ok to leave trash just anywhere (b) there are very few public trash cans where one might properly dispose of refuse.

I was in Latvia recently. There was an abundance of street trash cans. There was no street litter. I think the connection is clear.

Ghost
06-04-2005, 12:11
Are you going to go WuWu on us now?

Halyavshik
06-04-2005, 12:19
Well, I, for one, agree with Peng. There are far too few public trash containers. I can't count how many times I've walked around with an empty coke can or wrapper from a Steff dog, and can't find any place to discard it.

And, a lot of the more popular places to go out in the countryside and cook shashlik or go swimming are usually littered beyond belief with sukhariki wrappers and brown two liter bottles of beer. It's a shame really.

I remember when they first got rid of metro tokens and switched to the cards. It was months before trashcans appeared, and the stations and cars were awash in used cards.

I've often heard it put forth that the lack of trash receptacles is security-bound; it's easy to hide explosives in trash containers, apparently. Maybe that's bunk and it's just good ole poor planning. In any case, it is one aspect of Moscow I've found lacking.

mediashark
06-04-2005, 12:21
Ever tried to stuff more than 2 bottles in those tiny trash cans? Impossible.

Shatneresque
06-04-2005, 12:25
Only in this country have I ever seen people chuck their garbage on the sidewalk at the same time they're sitting right next to a trash can. (They do have them at most bus stops, note.) It's pointless to try and upbraid them for it, since they just sit there and stare uncomprehending (if they don't get violent).

Across the street from where I live is an institute dorm where the residents simply toss their refuse out the windows, and it piles up in the courtyard below until someone gets around to shoveling it out. In the meantime, it's a great breeding ground for rats. My dog loves chasing them in the summertime.

Third World mentality? I'd say that describes it pretty well....

Random
06-04-2005, 12:32
Lack of trash cans / dustbins - the same in London - there is a lack of them - none at any major railways or airports - the resaon as Hal says is security. Sadly whilst there is still people intent on planting bombs in bins there will be a lack of bins.

Sad but true

Cherry
06-04-2005, 12:45
Originally posted by Shatneresque
.

Third World mentality? I'd say that describes it pretty well....

not everybody is the same here...

in fact on the WE there are many groups of young ppl coming to the center "for a walk" with no money (or just for a can of beer)
as they see the espensive shops and other signs of welfare around they get angry because they will never be able to have such lifestyle...

thats how revolutions begin... in Russia there is a huge gap between Rich and Poor and it has nothing to do with bins:(

mediashark
06-04-2005, 12:51
Well it took Singapore S$1000 (US$1=S$1.70) fines for each piece of litter and 'corrective work order' which involves the guilty litterbugs to clean up beaches and streets. And that's not a 3rd word country.

gino
06-04-2005, 12:55
Originally posted by Shatneresque
Only in this country have I ever seen people chuck their garbage on the sidewalk at the same time they're sitting right next to a trash can. (They do have them at most bus stops, note.) It's pointless to try and upbraid them for it, since they just sit there and stare uncomprehending (if they don't get violent).

Across the street from where I live is an institute dorm where the residents simply toss their refuse out the windows, and it piles up in the courtyard below until someone gets around to shoveling it out. In the meantime, it's a great breeding ground for rats. My dog loves chasing them in the summertime.

Third World mentality? I'd say that describes it pretty well....

Exactly! I have a neighbor that parks his car within 3 meters of the trash dumpsters for our building. I see him very often get out of his car and throw a plastic bottle of whatever bevereage he has been drinking (sometimes beer even) into the yard in front of our building. It is a perfect example of this mentality. His windows look over this same yard, but the thought of littering it means nothing to him. I hate that mentality.

Out of curiosity, how is being saddened by the mess in Pushkin Square anywhere equivalent to that Wu guy???

Shatneresque
06-04-2005, 12:59
Originally posted by Cherry
thats how revolutions begin
Reminds me of a passage from a book I once read on race relations in the United States (Crisis in Black and White, by Charles E. Silberman), the essence of which was: Those who throw malt liquor cans out the window into their front yard don't need to be lectured that it's antisocial; they know this perfectly well. That's precisely why they do it....

This is a legitimate excuse for (with apologies to our porcine brothers and sisters) piggishness?

mediashark
06-04-2005, 13:03
So is it a case of:
"who cares?"
"can't be bothered"
"it's not my problem"

or:
"someone will pick it up"
"what are street cleaners for?"
"I don't see a trash can around. do you?"
"what harm does one more piece of litter do?"

equalizer
06-04-2005, 13:05
dont worry i am sure luzkov wil soon pass a law requiring plastic waste bins outside every premise ....................oh and you have to buy them from city hall

Shatneresque
06-04-2005, 13:05
Originally posted by mediashark
Well it took Singapore S$1000 (US$1=S$1.70) fines for each piece of litter and 'corrective work order' which involves the guilty litterbugs to clean up beaches and streets.
Try littering in Switzerland. If the cops see you, they'll pick up your garbage, follow you back home, and formally present it to you for proper disposal....

mediashark
06-04-2005, 13:08
(equalizer please leave your contact with me. funny you got mad when someone didn't get back to you.)

LOL do you think it'll work here? Would you like the militsa to follow you home and formally present it to you for proper disposal? Maybe it'll work indeed hehe

Cherry
06-04-2005, 13:11
Originally posted by Shatneresque

This is a legitimate excuse for (with apologies to our porcine brothers and sisters) piggishness?

i dont want to excuse them... i just think that this kind of behaviour has deep social roots and comes from the insatisfaction and total poverty

Shatneresque
06-04-2005, 13:15
Originally posted by mediashark
Maybe it'll work indeed
Only if it's associated with collecting a "fine." Heh, heh!

equalizer
06-04-2005, 13:16
<< post deleted... you were warned and as you used a swear word in the title of a thread in information (read the rules) your posting privileges are revoked for 1 week>>

Ledka
06-04-2005, 13:50
Untidiness is the most terrific feature of our nation I am ashamed of. It catches your eyes at once when you step out of a plane. Sadly I don't even believe that it can change for better.
May be fining could help a bit.

Shatneresque
06-04-2005, 14:06
Originally posted by Ledka
Untidiness is the most terrific feature of our nation I am ashamed of. It catches your eyes at once when you step out of a plane.
I remember when I finished my academic year in Moscow in 1990, and I stopped to visit a classmate in Helsinki on the way home. My first evening there, we were waiting for the bus in front of her apartment and I was staring at my surroundings as though I'd just beamed down onto an alien planet. "My God!" I said. "Everything's so clean!" She looked around (there was maybe a cigarette butt lying in the gutter) and said "You think this is clean? I think it's very dirty."

Talk about "culture shock"....

jchidg1
06-04-2005, 19:22
Had exactly the same experience when returning to London from Moscow last weekend - sat in the back of a cab thinking, "My God, Hounslow is really clean......" WHAT?
It's a shame that a city which is ( in parts ) as beautiful and interesting as Moscow is treated like an open air bottle bank. Also couldn't get over the fact that there is so much dog poo lying around - particulalry in children's playgrounds.

Sorry if sounding like a patronising westerner, but it was a real eye opener. How hard can it be to clean up after your dog - especially when you are putting the health of others at risk? Yes, i know I'm on the wrong thread here. I'll go and away and do some work now.

trebor
06-04-2005, 19:58
Originally posted by Ledka
Untidiness is the most terrific feature of our nation I am ashamed of. It catches your eyes at once when you step out of a plane. Sadly I don't even believe that it can change for better.
May be fining could help a bit.

Not true Ledka,
the authorities need to take action first of all to provide an efficiant waste disposal programme.
Secondly, i can remeber in Britain in the 70's the government spent a lot of money campaigning to keep Britain tidy. TV, radio, press, everywhere.
You might laugh and people did but the DIRECTION HAS TO COME FROM THE TOP and you will find slowly, change will take place.

koba65
06-04-2005, 20:33
I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize for the party I held on Pushkin Square last night. Next time we'll police up after ourselves.

Free Man
06-04-2005, 20:53
Gino don't like it, GO BACK HOME DUDE!!!

it's Moscow, and the snow is phuq'n melting! get with it, give the kyrgyz dvorniki a chance. There phuq'n president was outsed and they are either celebrating or not...

Cherokee
06-04-2005, 21:10
Well here is a pic of some russian mod`s work-station
- and you're talking about mess???:eh:

gino
06-04-2005, 21:57
Originally posted by Free Man
Gino don't like it, GO BACK HOME DUDE!!!



Free Man,
I can't believe I am actually responding to such a dumbass post! However, what is your problem? Do you really believe it is ok to litter without a second thought or are you just trying to get under people's skin?
And by the way - don't just address me. Address the many others that agreed with me in this thread INCLUDING some Russians.

Cherokee
06-04-2005, 22:18
Originally posted by gino
Free Man,
I can't believe I am actually responding to such a dumbass post! .
Hey Gino...cool down! Sure its not ok to litter. But its not only a problem here in Moscow. Dont tell me in Italy you dont have such problems too. I have seen alot of litter everywhere there too!

gino
06-04-2005, 22:31
Originally posted by Cherokee
Hey Gino...cool down! Sure its not ok to litter. But its not only a problem here in Moscow. Dont tell me in Italy you dont have such problems too. I have seen alot of litter everywhere there too!

I am not upset and I surely don't think my posts are ranting or full of emotion.
I am just tired of lines like Free Man's. That is such a stupid thing to write. Any time someone says anything about something that is wrong or could be improved someone posts a similar thing. Its just lame. It only serves to make the person writing it feel they are SO cool for living here.

As for litter - yes, it is everywhere. But I think hundreds of alcohol bottles and shattered glass in a heavly trafficed public square is excessive and should not be accepted as "it happens."

Cherokee
06-04-2005, 22:38
Originally posted by gino
IAs for litter - yes, it is everywhere. But I think hundreds of alcohol bottles and shattered glass in a heavly trafficed public square is excessive and should not be accepted as "it happens."
I dont know about other FreeMans post. Havent watched his postings so I cannot follow u there. But as for hundreds of alcohol bottles - I have seen this on Rimini beach every morning as well as several other places in Rome, Geneva or Neaples - all in public places. So how you deal with this in your home country? Mabye you have some advise for Moscow?

gino
06-04-2005, 22:57
I don't know the answer. I just like to complain!
I guess there is no answer other than what I said to start it all - people suck.

trebor
06-04-2005, 23:52
Originally posted by Cherokee
I dont know about other FreeMans post. Havent watched his postings so I cannot follow u there. But as for hundreds of alcohol bottles - I have seen this on Rimini beach every morning as well as several other places in Rome, Geneva or Neaples - all in public places. So how you deal with this in your home country? Mabye you have some advise for Moscow?

My memories of Moscow are that it is actualy cleaner than the other parts of Russia that i have been to.
So trying to compare Moscow to Italy is not a good comparison. Take a trip to some of the other cities in this country and you will be astonished at the the mess!

Cherokee
07-04-2005, 01:52
Originally posted by trebor
...So trying to compare Moscow to Italy is not a good comparison. Take a trip to some of the other cities in this country and you will be astonished at the the mess!

Fully agree with you Trebor. My comparison with Italy was only because of Gino's home country. In fact, I think Moscow is much cleaner then some of the Italian cities I mentioned. And yes, if you've seen the RF countryside you`d appreciate how clean Moscow is!:agree:

jheisel
07-04-2005, 11:10
I've noticed that over the past few months, recycling bins for gl**** paper, plastic and aluminum have been showing up outside various metro stations. However, so far they seem to be limited to stations outside the center (I can recall seeing them near Avtozavodskaya and Bagrationnovskaya). The times they are a changing?

mediashark
07-04-2005, 11:56
Do you know how they collect the stuff in the recycling cans?

They take the paper, plastic and aluminium waste from the seperate bins and then toss it altogether in one common bin.

Smart, huh?

Shatneresque
07-04-2005, 12:04
Originally posted by mediashark
Do you know how they collect the stuff in the recycling cans?

They take the paper, plastic and aluminium waste from the seperate bins and then toss it altogether in one common bin.

Smart, huh?
Russian, I'd say.... :rolleyes:

joners66
07-04-2005, 12:16
Imagine a perfect Moscow without as much as a sweet wrapper on the floor.....hygenic, sterile and souless. The enviroment is a reflection of the people that use it and although the streets are Sh***y the place has 'soul'
As THE MAN said
Don't be so gloomy. After all it's not that awful. Like the fella says, in Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. So long Holly.

klasno
07-04-2005, 12:20
Originally posted by pengwn9
I don't think that the real problem is the drinking of beer. The real problems are (a) people in this country seem to think that's it ok to leave trash just anywhere (b) there are very few public trash cans where one might properly dispose of refuse.

I was in Latvia recently. There was an abundance of street trash cans. There was no street litter. I think the connection is clear.

Are those the same trash cans that got them into the EU? I think it's the culture, not the cans.

I was once on a walk with my girlfriend. We were in the park by Kitai Gorod metro. I had finished a can of cola, and was walking with the empty can in my hand, so that I could bin it when we came to a rubbish bin. My girlfriend took the can out of my hand and threw it to the side of the sidewalk, and let me know that I had to relax and start acting normal.

Shatneresque
07-04-2005, 12:21
Originally posted by joners66
In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
You forgot "chocolates," "Swiss cheese," "yodeling," and "the Swiss Army knife"! :D

(By the way: anybody know where I can get a surplus Swiss Army bicycle, like the Germans ride in all those WWII movies? That'd be cool!)

klasno
07-04-2005, 12:25
Well the place has less people than New Jersey. Come to think of it, both are major pharmaceutical centers. LSD was invented in Switzerland.

Albert Hofmann - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Albert_Hofmann_Oct_1993.jpg" class="image" title="Albert Hofmann in 1993"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Albert_Hofmann_Oct_1993.jpg/225px-Albert_Hofmann_Oct_1993.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/a/aa/Albert_Hofmann_Oct_1993.jpg/225px-Albert_Hofmann_Oct_1993.jpg

mediashark
07-04-2005, 12:26
Nice to think democracy produced chocolate, cheese, yodeling, a pocket knife and the cuckoo clock.

Hmm...

Mediashark has a weakness for chocoalte though.

joners66
07-04-2005, 12:29
Maybe we should start a thread...
and so what did the Swiss ever do for us...
Yodelling
Well apart from todelling,
Cheese
Yes and apart from cheese...................
Love them bikes too, if you get one let me know so I can borrow it for the weekend, skid on some dog s***t fall on a load of broken gl**** get infected by old crisp packets and rusty coke cans, get gangerine and cut my leg off with a Swiss Army knife......

Shatneresque
07-04-2005, 12:32
I'm serious about the bike, man! I've wanted one of those suckers for as long as I can remember. Any information on how to get one (other than by joining the Swiss Army) will be greatly appreciated.... :agree:

Cherry
07-04-2005, 12:32
Originally posted by klasno
My girlfriend took the can out of my hand and threw it to the side of the sidewalk, and let me know that I had to relax and start acting normal.

my god! where did you find her???:eek:

Cherokee
07-04-2005, 12:40
Originally posted by Shatneresque
I'm serious about the bike, man! I've wanted one of those suckers for as long as I can remember. Any information on how to get one (other than by joining the Swiss Army) will be greatly appreciated.... :agree:
Hey Cpt. Kirk: is that the kind you are looking for? I got an idea where u get them.

Shatneresque
07-04-2005, 12:48
You mean, I can find one here in Moscow?!? :eek:

Cherokee
07-04-2005, 12:53
Originally posted by Shatneresque
You mean, I can find one here in Moscow?!? :eek:
Well I doubt it you find that kind in Moscow unless some Germans have forgotten a few after the ran home...but: there is a big market for this bikes in Switzerland. The sell them in good shape starting at 200. The one you see on the pic will be sold with all attached equipment plus deco-rifle for 1070.-
See yourself (Swiss site in German) If you need any translation let me know. Dont know how good your German is.

http://www.i-e-a.de/productssimple11.html
http://www.veloboerse.info/details/1852/Militaervelo_93_zu_v.html
http://www.veloboerse.info/cat/1/25/Militaervelo.html

Shatneresque
07-04-2005, 12:57
Will definitely check it out!

My German's pretty good, but if I need any help I'll let you know.

Cherokee
07-04-2005, 13:03
Originally posted by Shatneresque
Will definitely check it out!

My German's pretty good, but if I need any help I'll let you know.
Ok pal - I am sure there is a way to send a bike to your home country when you go back. Prices seem fair from what I have seen - especially IEA Surplus Int. Btw: the say, they deliver worldwide...so here is your chance!

http://www.i-e-a.de/productssimple25.html

Shatneresque
07-04-2005, 13:11
Buy you a beer or three sometime! :D

Cherokee
07-04-2005, 13:31
Originally posted by Shatneresque
Buy you a beer or three sometime! :D

Sounds like a plan!!

Big Bugga
08-04-2005, 03:36
The swiss still have units that use those bikes (though made of modern materials) so should be easy to find in surplus type stores there, just a thought.

And as far as all the bottles go, I wonder what it would take to start a recycling center, put a return price on bottles/cans ect, you would have loads of the not so fortunate sweeping moscow for peoples empties and turning them in. Then sell the recycled materials to bottlers...I'm probably dense, couse mostly get distracted by small shiny objects and breasts, who knows.

Bugga'

jheisel
08-04-2005, 11:27
Originally posted by Big Bugga
And as far as all the bottles go, I wonder what it would take to start a recycling center, put a return price on bottles/cans ect, you would have loads of the not so fortunate sweeping moscow for peoples empties and turning them in. Then sell the recycled materials to bottlers...I'm probably dense, couse mostly get distracted by small shiny objects and breasts, who knows.


I thought this was already done, thus explaining why you'll get a crowd of babushki and dedushki hovering around you in the park when you're drinking a beer...

mediashark
08-04-2005, 11:29
Can who's seen the fountain lately confirm this? I'm pretty sure the bottles are gone by now. :) Hurrah for babushki and dedushki!

Surok
08-04-2005, 11:38
Originally posted by jheisel
I thought this was already done, thus explaining why you'll get a crowd of babushki and dedushki hovering around you in the park when you're drinking a beer...

exactly! and it's why you see babushki and the occasional ded hauling sacks and trolleys of bottles and tin cans around town.

a friend learning english named them 'the bottle graspers' :)

mediashark
08-04-2005, 11:43
Take a peek at
http://akula-v-rossii.blogspot.com/2005/02/do-russians-drink-lot-of-vodka.html
where I've explained why you see those people collecting bottles...