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is4fun
20-05-2010, 23:28
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10132762.stm

shurale
21-05-2010, 00:07
You should be hung up before the Lord against the sun
together with your scientists.

is4fun
21-05-2010, 01:04
You should be hung up before the Lord against the sun
together with your scientists.

Too funny! Even the god believing, fearing and pious bible thumping people like to burn people even if it is against what the teachings say.

shurale: No rebuttal from the article or is it just hard to accept that you were wrong all these years?

shurale
21-05-2010, 01:47
Too funny! Even the god believing, fearing and pious bible thumping people like to burn people even if it is against what the teachings say.

shurale: No rebuttal from the article or is it just hard to accept that you were wrong all these years?

People who like to burn people are wrong. Stoning is the right method.

is4fun
21-05-2010, 02:06
People who like to burn people are wrong. Stoning is the right method.

Why would you think that scientists and people as myself should be burned or stoned shulale? I think if I am deserving of this fate I should require an explanation. NO?

nbogaard
21-05-2010, 07:26
And what about, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

rusmeister
21-05-2010, 08:39
Hi, is4fun!
I don't respond to mindless hate of Christianity - it's just another form of fanaticism, but as I said, if you are ever willing to consider that my position could also be reasonable, and I get a hint of that, I'll be happy to hold a reasonable conversation. Until that time, it's the "ignore list".

That said, the title of your thread seems to prove the words of the apostle Paul in his letter to the Roman Christians:

20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

(The bolded words seem to chime with your thread title)

len
21-05-2010, 10:04
And what about, "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

when God says vengeance is mine he is telling mankind that no one is worthy enough to revenge another brother because all have fallen short of His glory. All have sinned. a thief cannot judge/condemn another thief. thats is why vengence is His. the creator. who even as a human being did not fall.

len
21-05-2010, 10:29
People who like to burn people are wrong. Stoning is the right method.

burning, stoning, hanging, i dont think any of this is right. if anybody has to die let it be through the natural methods------nature happening.

nbogaard
21-05-2010, 10:56
when God says vengeance is mine he is telling mankind that no one is worthy enough to revenge another brother because all have fallen short of His glory. All have sinned. a thief cannot judge/condemn another thief. thats is why vengence is His. the creator. who even as a human being did not fall.

I guess that is precisely the point I was trying to make. If vengeance belongs to the Lord, what is all this stuff about taking the prerogative of vengeance upon mankind by burning, stoning and hanging?

len
21-05-2010, 11:36
I guess that is precisely the point I was trying to make. If vengeance belongs to the Lord, what is all this stuff about taking the prerogative of vengeance upon mankind by burning, stoning and hanging?

for those who do not understand, they will always take vengeance like a right of passage to death for the perpetrators if that is the right word to use.

Ian G
21-05-2010, 12:11
Back to the subject- Craig Venter's extraordinary achievement (assuming it's true- he's a great publicist of his own work) - congratulations to him. Humans have been moulding life in all kinds of ways through selective breeding- or 'artificial selection' as Darwin called it. This seems to be a logical next step. A triumph of bioenginering.
Of course synthwitic bacteria could be dangerous. The same is true of any new technology or scientific breakthrough.

By the way, I didn't read any reference to God in this article (apart from the unarguable statement "He isn't God"). Nor should there be. References in a science article to God, angels, demons, cherubim, the Prince of Darkness, the Holy Ghost, and other spiritual beings who can not be proved to exist are out of place, except as a metaphor (in the way that Einstein often used the word 'God'). Science is the art of the testable and observable.

Anyway- this bacterium is 'partly synthetic'. So is a man with a titanium hip replacement. Logically -is there a difference?

shurale
21-05-2010, 13:15
Why would you think that scientists and people as myself should be burned or stoned shurale? I think if I am deserving of this fate I should require an explanation. NO?

For starters, the title of your thread is blasphemous.

this is what they did with blasphemers in good old times.

1 kings 21:13 And the two worthless men came in and sat opposite him. And the worthless men brought a charge against Naboth in the presence of the people, saying, "Naboth cursed God and the king." So they took him outside the city and stoned him to death with stones.

SV1973a
21-05-2010, 20:17
burning, stoning, hanging, i dont think any of this is right. if anybody has to die let it be through the natural methods------nature happening.

I kind of like the `stoning`. I remember it led to hilarious situations in `The life of Bryan`.;)

shurale
21-05-2010, 20:33
burning, stoning, hanging, i dont think any of this is right. if anybody has to die let it be through the natural methods------nature happening.

Why do you think so?
or what makes you think so?

shurale
21-05-2010, 22:31
when God says vengeance is mine he is telling mankind that no one is worthy enough to revenge another brother because all have fallen short of His glory. All have sinned. a thief cannot judge/condemn another thief. thats is why vengence is His. the creator. who even as a human being did not fall.

Len,
firstly, God cleans you of your sins.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

secondly, you become fit to carry out His will.

Like this:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Which means that Harry Potter should be stoned and hung up before the Lord against the sun. O.K. I know the boy is not real, but that is what they would have done to him.

Rusmeister, should people who read horoscopes be stoned, too?

yakspeare
21-05-2010, 22:41
Shurale all that is so IF the OLD TESTAMENT law was in place, but we are running on the new and improved "grace" model....hence such things no longer apply.

rusmeister
21-05-2010, 22:41
Back to the subject- Craig Venter's extraordinary achievement (assuming it's true- he's a great publicist of his own work) - congratulations to him. Humans have been moulding life in all kinds of ways through selective breeding- or 'artificial selection' as Darwin called it. This seems to be a logical next step. A triumph of bioenginering.
Of course synthetic bacteria could be dangerous. The same is true of any new technology or scientific breakthrough.


Yes. A great triumph for eugenics. Nice new name they've given it there, by the way.
People have already forgotten the last great struggle against applied bioengineering some seventy years ago now - something which can be applied for evil use as well as good - and is much more likely to be applied for the latter. For some reason, human nature - most especially its tendency to selfishness, aka "sin" - is generally left out of account in scientific utopias.

For intelligent readers only (who are not challenged by anything longer than short paragraphs with graphics, powerpoint slides and embedded youtube):
http://www.cse.dmu.ac.uk/~mward/gkc/books/Eugenics.html

Intro as teaser, written shortly after the end of WW1:

I publish these essays at the present time for a particular reason connected with the present situation; a reason which I should like briefly to emphasize and make clear.

Though most of the conclusions, especially towards the end, are conceived with reference to recent events, the actual bulk of preliminary notes about the science of Eugenics were written before the war. It was a time when this theme was the topic of the hour; when eugenic babies --- not visibly very distinguishable from other babies --- sprawled all over the illustrated papers; when the evolutionary fancy of Nietzsche was the new cry among the intellectuals; and when Mr. Bernard Shaw and others were considering the idea that to breed a man like a cart-horse was the true way to attain that higher civilization, of intellectual magnanimity and sympathetic insight, which may be found in cart-horses. It may therefore appear that I took the opinion too controversially, and it seems to me that I some times took it too seriously. But the criticism of Eugenics soon expanded of itself into a more general criticism of a modern craze for scientific officialism and strict social organization.

And then the hour came when I felt, not without relief, that I might well fling all my notes into the fire. The fire was a very big one, and was burning up bigger things than such pedantic quackeries. And, anyhow, the issue itself was being settled in a very different style. Scientific officialism and organization in the State which had specialized in them, had gone to war with the older culture of Christendom. Either Prussianism would win and the protest would be hopeless, or Prussianism would lose and the protest would be needless. As the war advanced from poison gas to piracy against neutrals, it grew more and more plain that the scientifically organized State was not increasing in popularity. Whatever happened, no Englishmen would ever again go nosing round the stinks of that low laboratory. So I thought all I had written irrelevant, and put it out of my mind.

I am greatly grieved to say that it is not irrelevant. It has gradually grown apparent, to my astounded gaze, that the ruling classes in England are still proceeding on the assumption that Prussia is a pattern for the whole world. If parts of my book are nearly nine years old most of their principles and proceedings are a great deal older. They can offer us nothing but the same stuffy science, the same bullying bureaucracy and the same terrorism by tenth-rate professors that have led the German Empire to its recent conspicuous triumph. For that reason, three years after the war with Prussia, I collect and publish these papers.

Relevant? You betcha.

Angym
21-05-2010, 23:04
Back to the subject- Humans have been moulding life in all kinds of ways through selective breeding- or 'artificial selection' as Darwin called it. This seems to be a logical next step. A triumph of bioenginering.


Is the task to mould life in all kinds of ways through selective breeding- or 'artificial selection' within Humans powers? Who decides what is bad or what is good for Humans?
We need to have the progress in Science, but who is going to use that progress???
Maybe I have seen a lot horror films…..

rusmeister
22-05-2010, 07:33
Is the task to mould life in all kinds of ways through selective breeding- or 'artificial selection' within Humans powers? Who decides what is bad or what is good for Humans?
We need to have the progress in Science, but who is going to use that progress???
Maybe I have seen a lot horror films…..
Or just a lot of real life.
The Nazis were not a horror film, yet it was a logical conclusion if one accepts a moral right for man to mess with genetics. If he can play god, then he has the right to do whatever he sees fit to achieve perfection for himself and others if he sees fit. If you have rejected the religious principle, as the German state did then, and as the western states are all doing to various degrees now, then there is no moral basis for denying that that can be defended as anything other than personal opinion.

In any event, a small group of "specialists", funded and backed by the equally small group that wields real power, will be the ones who ultimately shape eugenics - uh, excuse me, "bioengineering" - in the way they see fit, and be the prime beneficiaries of any benefits, which will be expensive or impossible to obtain for the populace at large.

Those capable of serious reading should try out Chesterton's book (link posted above) - at least the first chapter or two.

First paragraph, ch 1:
The wisest thing in the world is to cry out before you are hurt. It is no good to cry out after you are hurt; especially after you are mortally hurt. People talk about the impatience of the populace; but sound historians know that most tyrannies have been possible because men moved too late. It is often essential to resist a tyranny before it exists. It is no answer to say, with a distant optimism, that the scheme is only in the air. A blow from a hatchet can only be parried while it is in the air.

He stands out from other writers on the topic because he predicted the Nazi experiments with eugenics before they ever happened - he died in 1936 - and he was right, and we, reading him, know from our history that he was right, and we can see the same principles repeating again.

MickeyTong
22-05-2010, 11:59
Not many people in the UK know that, if they have a surgical procedure which removes some of their tissue, some of that tissue will be used for genetic research. Patient consent is not required for this as the removed bits are considered "clinical waste".

I have an uncle who is vehemently opposed to bioengineering and battled for several years for the right to own his "waste" bits: what he refers to as the "eugenics-medical elite" were very reluctant to give up access to his genetic code.

shurale
22-05-2010, 12:44
Shurale all that is so IF the OLD TESTAMENT law was in place, but we are running on the new and improved "grace" model....hence such things no longer apply.

Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth p**** one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did heaven and earth pass?

yakspeare
22-05-2010, 13:36
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth p**** one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Did heaven and earth pass?

ok so you have a complete misundestanding of the bible and i can pull out Pauls letters which state it clearly.

but if you follow the law you cant follow just some of it. do you follow the sabbath on a saturday? indeed do you have anything in your pocket on this day? do you eat pork and shellfish? you will be in real trouble if you are not circumsized....

Exodus chapter 21

15 Whoever hits his father or his mother is to be put to death.

Exodus chapter 35

2 You have six days in which to do your work, but the seventh day is to be sacred, a solemn day of rest dedicated to me, the Lord. Anyone who does any work on that day is to be put to death. 3 Do not even light a fire in your homes on the Sabbath.

Now The NEW Testament:

Romans chapter 8 (CEV)

1 If you belong to Christ Jesus, you won't be punished. 2 The Holy Spirit will give you life that comes from Christ Jesus and will set you free from sin and death. 3 The Law of Moses cannot do this, because our selfish desires make the Law weak. But God set you free when he sent his own Son to be like us sinners and to be a sacrifice for our sin. God used Christ's body to condemn sin. 4 He did this, so that we would do what the Law commands by obeying the Spirit instead of our own desires.

5 People who are ruled by their desires think only of themselves. Everyone who is ruled by the Holy Spirit thinks about spiritual things. 6 If our minds are ruled by our desires, we will die. But if our minds are ruled by the Spirit, we will have life and peace. 7 Our desires fight against God, because they do not and cannot obey God's laws.


2 Corinthians chapter 3 (TEV)

6 ... the new covenant ... consists not of a written law but of the Spirit. The written law brings death, but the Spirit gives life. 7 The Law was carved in letters on stone tablets, and God's glory appeared when it was given. Even though the brightness on Moses' face was fading, it was so strong that the people of Israel could not keep their eyes fixed on him. If the Law, which brings death when it is in force, came with such glory, 8 how much greater is the glory that belongs to the activity of the Spirit! 9 The system which brings condemnation was glorious; how much more glorious is the activity which brings salvation! 10 We may say that because of the far brighter glory now the glory that was so bright in the past is gone. 11 For if there was glory in that which lasted for a while, how much more glory is there in that which lasts forever!

New Covenant -new rules.

Galatians chapter 3 (NLT)

19 Well then, why was the law given? It was given to show people how guilty they are.

21 If the law could have given us new life, we could have been made right with God by obeying it. 22 But the Scriptures have declared that we are all prisoners of sin, ... 23 Until faith in Christ was shown to us as the way of becoming right with God, we were guarded by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until we could put our faith in the coming Savior. 24 Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came. ... 25 But now that faith in Christ has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. 26 So you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have been made like him. 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are all Christians - you are one in Christ Jesus.

shurale
22-05-2010, 16:24
Ofc I eat the pork and I drink wine.

1 Timothy 4
1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Circumcision is likewise not obligatory because the Bible says so.

I.e. The NT introduced some changes (dietary laws and circumcision)
but NT doesn't say it is o.k. to live a witch live or
not to stone homosexuals.

yakspeare
22-05-2010, 16:57
again you are mistaken. if we stone homosexuals we must follow all of the 613 commandments of the old testament and kill people for adultery and even lighting a fire on the sabbath or indeed not following the sabbath.

http://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament


the summary from that article:


Summary

1. Christ is the end of the Law and believers are not under the Mosaic Law. New Testament believers are not under Law but under grace (Rom. 6:14).

2. Since the Lord Jesus Christ fulfills the Law by His person and work, believers are under a new law; the obligation to walk by the Spirit of Life through faith (Rom. 8:2-4). If we are led by the Spirit, then we are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18).

3. Against such, i.e., the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law because the believer is then operating under the highest law, the standards are met as we walk by the Holy Spirit and grow in the Word (Gal. 5:22).

Warning Against Entanglements with the Law as Believers Today

After salvation by grace there has always been the grave danger of reverting to Law or legalism by taboos and tactics of coercion, or some form of human manipulation (Gal. 3:1-3). To go back to the Law as a way of life puts one under the control of the flesh, it nullifies true spirituality by faith in the Holy Spirit, and defeats the believer. It results in human good and domination by the sin nature or the flesh (Gal. 5:1-5; Col. 2:14f). The fact that the Christian is not under the Mosaic Law does not mean, of course, that there is lawlessness or no proper sense of morality or ethics in the Christian life. Quite the contrary is true. But in dealing with the subject of morality or ethics, it must be understood that the clear teaching of the New Testament is that the moral life the Christian is responsible for is that (1) no one can be saved by virtue of his own works (Tit. 3:5; Eph. 2:8-9), and (2) that the morality of the Christian life is to be the result of the Christ exchanged life by faith and submission to the ministry and power of a Spirit-controlled life.

shurale
22-05-2010, 18:36
We should indeed stone people for adultery and even lighting fires on the sabbath and gathering the sticks. Alas, we don't and the world is going to the dogs.
Jesus Christ never said He is the end of the Law.
If He did, then please quote that passage.
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth p**** one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Neither heaven nor earth passed, so unless the bible specifically states so, you are commanded to obey all rules of the OT. So, just like 3 millenia ago
you can neither covet your neighbours slave nor boil the kid in its mother's milk.


again you are mistaken. if we stone homosexuals we must follow all of the 613 commandments of the old testament and kill people for adultery and even lighting a fire on the sabbath or indeed not following the sabbath.

http://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament


the summary from that article:


Summary

1. Christ is the end of the Law and believers are not under the Mosaic Law. New Testament believers are not under Law but under grace (Rom. 6:14).

2. Since the Lord Jesus Christ fulfills the Law by His person and work, believers are under a new law; the obligation to walk by the Spirit of Life through faith (Rom. 8:2-4). If we are led by the Spirit, then we are not under the Law (Gal. 5:18).

3. Against such, i.e., the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law because the believer is then operating under the highest law, the standards are met as we walk by the Holy Spirit and grow in the Word (Gal. 5:22).

Warning Against Entanglements with the Law as Believers Today

After salvation by grace there has always been the grave danger of reverting to Law or legalism by taboos and tactics of coercion, or some form of human manipulation (Gal. 3:1-3). To go back to the Law as a way of life puts one under the control of the flesh, it nullifies true spirituality by faith in the Holy Spirit, and defeats the believer. It results in human good and domination by the sin nature or the flesh (Gal. 5:1-5; Col. 2:14f). The fact that the Christian is not under the Mosaic Law does not mean, of course, that there is lawlessness or no proper sense of morality or ethics in the Christian life. Quite the contrary is true. But in dealing with the subject of morality or ethics, it must be understood that the clear teaching of the New Testament is that the moral life the Christian is responsible for is that (1) no one can be saved by virtue of his own works (Tit. 3:5; Eph. 2:8-9), and (2) that the morality of the Christian life is to be the result of the Christ exchanged life by faith and submission to the ministry and power of a Spirit-controlled life.

yakspeare
22-05-2010, 19:05
Again you are 100% incorrect. The bible on numerous occasions says entirely the opposite. If you wish to follow such law Judaism or Islam has a place for you.

You take out of context, ignoring the passage before it.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth p**** one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

verse 17 says he is here to fulfill the law. he completes it by his death and resurrection. His sacrifice means we are no longer subject to the old law AT ALL, he has taken the burden of that on himself. infact it says if you follow the old law still then his sacrifice is in vain. Basically you aren't a christian if you are bound by the old law. Christianity is about freedom and living in GRACE not in doing works.

the new covenant was prophesied in the book of Jeremiah...it is a whole new deal....it is FREEDOM from the law, not a slave to it. Because no man can fulfill the law and live a sinless life, God had to sacrifice his son to take on our sin., so we could be in the new covenant.

find anyway in the new testament where it says to kill a witch or homosexual or sabbath breaker etc. You can't.

Infact it says " He is without sin cast the first stone".

is4fun
22-05-2010, 20:33
Now we have another fanatic joining the ranks of the deranged. Every so often throughout the life of man, be it in desperation for whatever or simple mental defect, their minds start to wonder and accept the voices of the fantasies they had entertained in childhood. Throughout their prolonged illness, these maturation s begin to control their own lives eventually rendering them absolutely without the realism needed to survive in a world without trying to infect those who think freely, who love life and are able to make decisions without the aid of a wizard. Threatening people based on an interpretation of something written such as this fantastic bible or koran story by a many talented chieftain throughout the millennium only accentuates dementia.(I use the aforementioned form of illness as to be politically correct) Sure all of you bible readers can quote passages from a story which had been written, edited, rewritten, edited and now debunked cannot deny the fact that a biological form of life that is able to feed and reproduce has been created by a man, not a god, but a man. Synthetics; absolutely, but from biological materials, not plastic or metal.

is4fun
22-05-2010, 21:53
Not many people in the UK know that, if they have a surgical procedure which removes some of their tissue, some of that tissue will be used for genetic research. Patient consent is not required for this as the removed bits are considered "clinical waste".

I have an uncle who is vehemently opposed to bioengineering and battled for several years for the right to own his "waste" bits: what he refers to as the "eugenics-medical elite" were very reluctant to give up access to his genetic code.

Given the hunger for control by the powers to be your uncle may have been correct, however, without his help other areas of science may have suffered. A wide cross examination of the populous by those who feel they can help society rather than just control it seems a chance I would be willing to take. After all, those powers tend to go as fast as they came but the benefits of the science remains.

yakspeare
22-05-2010, 22:13
i am responding directly to shurale's views so i was not advocating my religion.

you argue that to believe in God is to be deranged and mentally deficient and something to do with our childhood. Equally we could argue those who do not believe in God have these same flaws. Around half of all current scientists(i have published this more then once on this forum) believe in a God or higher being(not always the christian God) so clearly if the intelligent, the logical, can find EQUALLY a case for or against God, then it is not a sign of mental illness. Someone who "HATES" religion is someone who may have issues and problems( as compared to indifference towards it).


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

-Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

is4fun
22-05-2010, 22:38
i am responding directly to shurale's views so i was not advocating my religion.

you argue that to believe in God is to be deranged and mentally deficient and something to do with our childhood. Equally we could argue those who do not believe in God have these same flaws. Around half of all current scientists(i have published this more then once on this forum) believe in a God or higher being(not always the christian God) so clearly if the intelligent, the logical, can find EQUALLY a case for or against God, then it is not a sign of mental illness. Someone who "HATES" religion is someone who may have issues and problems( as compared to indifference towards it).


"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

-Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy and Religion: a Symposium", 1941
US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

I would strongly recommend that when placing quotes as the one you had by Mr. Einstein that they be placed into the correct context as more of his quotes had reflected non-belief rather than belief. In almost all cases, scientist pander to the funding needed to conduct research and provide for themselves and thier families. I assure you my friend that the outcome of the research greatly contradicts the en dower's expectations if they happen to be from a religious entity. This thread is a case in point!

yakspeare
22-05-2010, 22:53
i strongly recommend you actually read einstein...he was certainly not a believer in the christian God but he was certainly a believer in a God....Buddhism was closer to his belief...but doesn't change the fact that he believed in God and apparently was not mentally deficient...

http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm some light reading.

further interview with Einstein:

You accept the historical existence of Jesus? "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."
Do you believe in God? "I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

is4fun
22-05-2010, 23:04
i strongly recommend you actually read einstein...he was certainly not a believer in the christian God but he was certainly a believer in a God....Buddhism was closer to his belief...but doesn't change the fact that he believed in God and apparently was not mentally deficient...

As always, another interpretation of how religious people think to justify their own beliefs. More of a crutch than logic. Please clarify to our readers if you will where Buddha plays into these quotes? I would be more than happy to present more... :)

"The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

Albert Einstein

"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."

Albert Einstein

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything "chosen" about them."

Albert Einstein

yakspeare
22-05-2010, 23:14
sorry i added more to my post as you were replying above.

more Einstein:

But throughout his life, Einstein was consistent in rejecting the charge that he was an atheist. "There are people who say there is no God," he told a friend. "But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." And unlike Sigmund Freud or Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw, Einstein never felt the urge to denigrate those who believed in God; instead, he tended to denigrate atheists. "What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos," he explained.
In fact, Einstein tended to be more critical of debunkers, who seemed to lack humility or a sense of awe, than of the faithful. "The fanatical atheists," he wrote in a letter, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres."
Einstein later explained his view of the relationship between science and religion at a conference at the Union Theological Seminary in New York. The realm of science, he said, was to ascertain what was the case, but not evaluate human thoughts and actions about what should be the case. Religion had the reverse mandate. Yet the endeavors worked together at times. "Science can be created only by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding," he said. "This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion." The talk got front-page news coverage, and his pithy conclusion became famous. "The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."


On Buddhism:

Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity.

and:

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.

is4fun
22-05-2010, 23:21
sorry i added more to my post as you were replying above.

more Einstein:

But throughout his life, Einstein was consistent in rejecting the charge that he was an atheist. "There are people who say there is no God," he told a friend. "But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." And unlike Sigmund Freud or Bertrand Russell or George Bernard Shaw, Einstein never felt the urge to denigrate those who believed in God; instead, he tended to denigrate atheists. "What separates me from most so-called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the harmony of the cosmos," he explained.
In fact, Einstein tended to be more critical of debunkers, who seemed to lack humility or a sense of awe, than of the faithful. "The fanatical atheists," he wrote in a letter, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres."
Einstein later explained his view of the relationship between science and religion at a conference at the Union Theological Seminary in New York. The realm of science, he said, was to ascertain what was the case, but not evaluate human thoughts and actions about what should be the case. Religion had the reverse mandate. Yet the endeavors worked together at times. "Science can be created only by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding," he said. "This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion." The talk got front-page news coverage, and his pithy conclusion became famous. "The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."


On Buddhism:

Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity.

and:

The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism.

I read those excerpts long ago if you had thought that I did not read any of his work. He greatly regretted what he wrote and it is absolutely reflected in his writings when he was secure in America. You see my friend he was a Jew living a Nazi Germany before WW2. What would you have done?

yakspeare
22-05-2010, 23:59
then you obviously did not read what he wrote then. what he wrote was contrary to what would be expected by a Jew in Nazi Germany.

He is not alone though, even today RIGHT NOW, in numerous surveys around half of all scientists believe in a God. I am not advocating mine, merely pointing out that intelligent people of all walks of life can equally believe in God or not. I don't mock people for not believing in God, but nor do i like to be mocked for my beliefs either and thrown into stereotypes.

it is that precise narrow mindedness that you accuse religious people of.

MickeyTong
23-05-2010, 00:20
Infact it says " He is without sin cast the first stone".

Referring to the numerous laws prescribing the death penalty and the hypocrisy of the would-be execution squad. People are all too eager to insist on vigorous punishment for crimes which they themselves don't commit, and forget about their own transgressions. The male mob baying for the execution of the adulteress (where was her partner?) would not insist that all laws be applied so rigorously.

shurale
23-05-2010, 00:42
Referring to the numerous laws prescribing the death penalty and the hypocrisy of the would-be execution squad. People are all too eager to insist on vigorous punishment for crimes which they themselves don't commit, and forget about their own transgressions. The male mob baying for the execution of the adulteress (where was her partner?) would not insist that all laws be applied so rigorously.

But it's not a sin to cast the first (second, third, the last) stone at the adulteress?

shurale
23-05-2010, 01:03
"In fact it says " He is without sin cast the first stone".

Pharisees were not purged with hyssop and were not clean. They were not washed and they were not whiter than snow. Hence they couldn't cast first (or second or any) stone at the adulteress.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.


find anyway in the new testament where it says to kill a witch or homosexual or sabbath breaker etc. You can't.

Jews couldn't stone homosexuals (and other criminals), because Romans made it illegal for them. And Jesus taught His disciples (and us) to respect the laws. Now, if we changed the laws, for example, made witchcraft capital offence, that would be a wholly different matter.

is4fun
23-05-2010, 02:09
then you obviously did not read what he wrote then. what he wrote was contrary to what would be expected by a Jew in Nazi Germany.

He is not alone though, even today RIGHT NOW, in numerous surveys around half of all scientists believe in a God. I am not advocating mine, merely pointing out that intelligent people of all walks of life can equally believe in God or not. I don't mock people for not believing in God, but nor do i like to be mocked for my beliefs either and thrown into stereotypes.

it is that precise narrow mindedness that you accuse religious people of.

Your first sentence is evident that you did not understand the simplicity in which I forwarded my argument. Please re-read what I wrote and try again.

Your next paragraph is also evident that you did not read my post regarding "pandering to funding".

Look, you asked me if I read Einstein's work. I replied an astounding, yes. Please, read some of my posts without pandering to your childhood dreams. If you fail to understand them then just ask, I will be happy to explain them to you without quoting some book written, re-written, edited, re-edited, re-written ad infinitum; and if you quote other books interpreting the interpreted book, give me some reference to this author.

2ndWind
23-05-2010, 02:38
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_environment/10132762.stm

"Dr Helen Wallace ..... told BBC News that synthetic bacteria could be dangerous."

"Professor Julian Savulescu, said .......'But the risks are also unparalleled,' ..."

Simple and very predictable responses to a scientific announcement.

Somehow science manages to continue to struggle forward in spite of constraints imposed by those who are desperate to have mankind return to the ignorance of the ancient past within which their magical beliefs were spawned. A past where natural processes were a mystery and magicians were called upon to explain things.

As natural processes came, slowly, to be understood; the magicians dug in their heels and declared that the earth could not possibly rotate around the sun, vaccinations could not prevent smallpox, blood transfusions should not be used to save lives, a species could not evolve from another species, the universe is only 6,000 years old, prayer is useful, etc., etc.

Why do the magicians continue this centuries long delaying action against science? As each element of the natural world is explained without resorting to magic, the magicians lose a bit more of their power.

Why do the magicians care so strongly and fight so bitterly? The magician industry is one of the largest, richest, and most powerful businesses on earth. Most of the magicians could not wield as much power or even live as well if they had to get a real job.

From were do the magicians get their power? Over millennia the magicians developed an extremely good understanding of human psychology and use this knowledge to exert some degree of control over great numbers of people. The magicians are expert in the use of practical hypnosis, mass hysteria, guilt, doubt, misdirection, etc., etc. Whether it is a gathering of thousands of people dancing in place loudly singing a hymn while some of their number are rolling in the aisles in ecstasy and speaking gibberish or a number of people in a darkened building with candles flickering, a heavy smell of incense in the air, a group of people chanting and a splendidly dressed magician speaking from a raised platform, or some other venue, the goal is the same - to convince the crowd that they will benefit by following the instructions of the magician.

And just what is the benefit which the magicians promise? Billions of people can be convinced by various measures, mainly their own egos, that they are too important to really die when their physical body ceases to function. They are led to believe that there is a "spiritual" element of their being which will live on eternally. These people are led by the magicians (and the magicians' writings) to believe that their spirits are going to spend eternity enduring the most horrible of tortures unless they properly obey the teachings of the magicians - in this case they can expect to enjoy a cushy retirement in an environment even more wondrous than Palm Beach, FL.

The magicians gain additional power by using their money and the influence of their followers to install themselves in the power structure of the relevant political organization. If they can consolidate enough political power then they will resort to military force to convert members of competing belief systems to their own.

The magicians work to concentrate the believers attention on scapegoat issues which keep the believers from ever reaching a goal and encourages additional financial donations (money, money, money) to use in the fight. Since "sex" is the driving force of all life and provokes the strongest of human emotions, sex related scapegoat issues are common. Since the magicians greatly fear scientific advancements, science is a constant target of their attacks. In some areas they even resist educational programs in the sciences.

The instructions given by the magicians include a requirement to donate money for the use of the magicians, bring up the believers offspring in the parents belief system, (usually) work to convert others to their belief system and to disregard any competing belief systems.

Every time medical science extends a life, whether it is a newborn, a centenarian or someone in between, it is interfering in a "natural process". In many, many of these cases, the interference leads to genes being passed on to future generations which would otherwise have been lost. The effect of this cannot be anticipated. Some magicians resist common medical procedures because they are "unnatural". If I had subscribed to their insanity, I would have died of appendicitis 40 years ago. Thanks to science, I'm here today to express the truth as I see it and I'll take my chances with a future rich in science and, wishfully, devoid of religion.

is4fun
23-05-2010, 02:47
Thanks 2ndWind,

Brilliant logic!

"If I had subscribed to their insanity, I would have died of appendicitis 40 years ago. Thanks to science, I'm here today to express the truth as I see it and I'll take my chances with a future rich in science and, wishfully, devoid of religion."

rusmeister
23-05-2010, 06:55
Hi, 2W!
There are different kinds of ignorance. Scientific/technological ignorance is only one of them.
In our world today we know, teach and praise science more than at any time in history. Yet, on the even more important areas of philosophy and theology, people are more ignorant than at any time in history.

It is no good learning how to do something scientific if your philosophy is all wrong - if your understanding of the nature of man and the universe has little or no correspondence to the truth. No science can help a person if their philosophy (whether they think about it or not) amounts to the meaninglessness of life. When things go south, despair, and abuse of technical inventions, right up to killing of self or others, are likely results.

It's no good inventing awesome things and making awesome discoveries if we don't truly understand who we are and why we are here.

Also, a mystic is not a magician. A magician seeks to manipulate/control his environment to suit his philosophy. A mystic sees a world beyond the mere material one. A person could be both, but they are not the same thing, and the major world religions - at least the "mainstream" versions of them, appeal to mysticism, but not to magic. I would say that some adherents - especially the ones that are "noisy" and active in (particularly in America) politics, fundamentalists and whatnot (if we can have a clear definition of the term) - ARE both. But you can't paint everyone, or the faiths as a whole, with that brush.

FWIW, I also kick back against some of the things that trouble you about faith. I simply found the resolution of those conflicts in Orthodoxy. It's mystical - but not magical.

yakspeare
23-05-2010, 08:11
Your first sentence is evident that you did not understand the simplicity in which I forwarded my argument. Please re-read what I wrote and try again.

Your next paragraph is also evident that you did not read my post regarding "pandering to funding".

Look, you asked me if I read Einstein's work. I replied an astounding, yes. Please, read some of my posts without pandering to your childhood dreams. If you fail to understand them then just ask, I will be happy to explain them to you without quoting some book written, re-written, edited, re-edited, re-written ad infinitum; and if you quote other books interpreting the interpreted book, give me some reference to this author.

i read your posts. i have argued with people on this forum previously about the God/no God thing and I am simply defending the intelligence of people who do believe in a higher power. That it isnt to do with a screwed up childhood fantasy land, it is not mental illness that needs to be cured, infact intelligent and rational people come to the conclusion there is a God quite readily. I am not even entering the debate on genetics/bio engineering and so forth. You might be surprised with my view if i did. Einstein certainly didnt believe in a personal God-but he did believe there was something out there, God in some shape or form. Yes it doesnt fit in with my world view(nor a Jewish or Christian view and would be unpopular in Nazi Germany) but i pointed out that this man of science still felt there was room for God. around 50% of scientists, slightly more Doctors, agree with him. So what you are saying when you mock religion is half the world's scientist suffer mental illness.

is4fun
23-05-2010, 19:22
i read your posts. i have argued with people on this forum previously about the God/no God thing and I am simply defending the intelligence of people who do believe in a higher power. That it isnt to do with a screwed up childhood fantasy land, it is not mental illness that needs to be cured, infact intelligent and rational people come to the conclusion there is a God quite readily. I am not even entering the debate on genetics/bio engineering and so forth. You might be surprised with my view if i did. Einstein certainly didnt believe in a personal God-but he did believe there was something out there, God in some shape or form. Yes it doesnt fit in with my world view(nor a Jewish or Christian view and would be unpopular in Nazi Germany) but i pointed out that this man of science still felt there was room for God. around 50% of scientists, slightly more Doctors, agree with him. So what you are saying when you mock religion is half the world's scientist suffer mental illness.

“There are different kinds of ignorance. Scientific/technological ignorance is only one of them.” I shake my head, roll my eyes back and pound my head against my desk when I read stuff like this. Childish arguments can only confirm a mind of a child.

As a non-realist you should never enter into an argument on genetics or bioengineering as the fantasies you hold from a few written words do not qualify you to do so. For the sake of mankind, try to help people rather than propagate imaginary and delusional thoughts onto others. I would recommend you take a good look at the subject matter of this thread. Man created a living organism. At this time in your life I realize this is alien to you as your edict would state that your supreme being is the creator of all life. Snap out of it and WAKE UP!

yakspeare
23-05-2010, 19:54
“There are different kinds of ignorance. Scientific/technological ignorance is only one of them.” I shake my head, roll my eyes back and pound my head against my desk when I read stuff like this. Childish arguments can only confirm a mind of a child.

As a non-realist you should never enter into an argument on genetics or bioengineering as the fantasies you hold from a few written words do not qualify you to do so. For the sake of mankind, try to help people rather than propagate imaginary and delusional thoughts onto others. I would recommend you take a good look at the subject matter of this thread. Man created a living organism. At this time in your life I realize this is alien to you as your edict would state that your supreme being is the creator of all life. Snap out of it and WAKE UP!

you are full of quite a bit of anger. I have not posted either way in regards to the issue of bioengineering either for/against. I was merely defending the intelligence of people who believe in any God. The head of the genome code, who actually broke the DNA code in the first place is a Christian, a scientist and a Doctor.

You can debate me, or you can(like a child) just insult me and try and belittle my intelligence.

By the way they didn't technically make life on their own(not saying they won't in the future) as they had to use living cells as part of the process(which they later removed). So they are close but not quite there yet.

Don't assume what our edict says. God created man, if man then created something else which had "life" this doesn't in any way contradict the bible. Some people may not like it, but it is in no way a contradiction nor is genetically modified plants or anything else.

rusmeister
23-05-2010, 20:15
It's useless at this time debating is4fun, yakspeare. I've dealt with him myself for quite some time. He's on my ignore list until such time as he recognizes that it is more intelligent to acknowledge intelligence that disagrees than to simply call it names. I only see any of his comments because you quote them. I'd leave him alone with his anti-religious diatribes. The best response is no response in such cases.

yakspeare
23-05-2010, 20:30
i just see the hypocrisy where an Atheist trys to ram his belief system down someone's throat , taunting and mocking those who dare believe in something and say that the church etc is intolerant and stifles opinion and thought.

Every charge that could be laid at the church for "lacking an open mind" and repression of individual belief shows itself today in modern day atheism. Fortunately only communism mandates such extreme restrictions and thus most people who profess to be atheist aren't as militant as some on here.

tsarski
23-05-2010, 20:37
i just see the hypocrisy where an Atheist trys to ram his belief system down someone's throat , taunting and mocking those who dare believe in something and say that the church etc is intolerant and stifles opinion and thought.

Every charge that could be laid at the church for "lacking an open mind" and repression of individual belief shows itself today in modern day atheism. Fortunately only communism mandates such extreme restrictions and thus most people who profess to be atheist aren't as militant as some on here.

All we Christians can do is to pray for poor souls like is4fun.

is4fun
23-05-2010, 22:04
All we Christians can do is to pray for poor souls like is4fun.


yakspeare, why would I propagate a belief that is so obviously fantastic that Alice in Wonderland would make more sense. I refer to the last fantasy as there are those who believe other authors of the same imagination are very influential to a few in this forum. ;-)

Now, as we talk of intelligence I must say a few words as that is the theme now most prevalent aside from hijacking my thread. You provide this belief without anything, not even a morsel of evidence to verify your claims that a superior entity does indeed exist. Now you say that there is nothing in conflict with creating artificial life in the bible. Who's bible? Or is this another interpretation once again? What about in taking it away? I reckon you are pro choice? LOL

is4fun
23-05-2010, 22:15
i just see the hypocrisy where an Atheist trys to ram his belief system down someone's throat , taunting and mocking those who dare believe in something and say that the church etc is intolerant and stifles opinion and thought.

Every charge that could be laid at the church for "lacking an open mind" and repression of individual belief shows itself today in modern day atheism. Fortunately only communism mandates such extreme restrictions and thus most people who profess to be atheist aren't as militant as some on here.

Where lies the hypocrisy? You believers are fanatics. Certainly there must be a limit to your interpretation of an open mind? I mean do you still believe that Santa comes down your chimney and delivers your gifts on the eve of December 24th? LOL

I have no anger towards anyone. I only find it absolutely ridiculous and utterly crazy to believe in something that never existed. I am also amazed.

yakspeare
23-05-2010, 22:41
yakspeare, why would I propagate a belief that is so obviously fantastic that Alice in Wonderland would make more sense. I refer to the last fantasy as there are those who believe other authors of the same imagination are very influential to a few in this forum. ;-)

Now, as we talk of intelligence I must say a few words as that is the theme now most prevalent aside from hijacking my thread. You provide this belief without anything, not even a morsel of evidence to verify your claims that a superior entity does indeed exist. Now you say that there is nothing in conflict with creating artificial life in the bible. Who's bible? Or is this another interpretation once again? What about in taking it away? I reckon you are pro choice? LOL

i didn't hijack your thread. You challenged the very notion of what we believe. I corrected Shurale on a few points tis all.

you claim i don't give a morsel of evidence that a superior being exists- do i actually have to? i am not challenging your beliefs, you are challenging mine. Prove to me that there is no God. i believe it is entirely logical and rational to believe in God and many in the scientific community agree with me. of course not all do. only about half.

Where in the bible does it say anything that says you cannot create artifical life? it doesnt. in ANY bible.

You mistake peoples desire to avoid the horrors of the Nazis bioengineering with christianity. in fairness many christians do too. it could just be that a great deal of believers in God are also people who care about their fellow man and where this could lead. As a society we have to decide what we want. lets look at the future, without those pesty religious freaks in the way:

selective breeding of personality traits so your child does not display abnormal behaviour
selection of physical characteristics so child is stronger, faster and more intelligent
selection of racial type and features. you could choose the whiteness of your child's skin.
bodies grown to be harvested for stem cells, or infact even to replace body parts of the living.
cloning children or yourself as a likeness, instead of having a biological child
in the far future a human born without either parent.

as for abortion, i guess i am pro-choice, with conditions. my son was originally diagnosed with down syndrome then it was spina bfida. we already had a daughter. we had to make a decision and quickly. we felt that the time and commitment and financial burden would affect us and our daughter greatly and not be fair on her. we knew many of our friends who had their marriages fail after the birth of a handicapped child. we considered it, it would be heart wrenching, but then the later results came back that the boy was going to be fine. if we had rushed into an abortion we would of lost our son. i am also aware that places like Russia have orphanages full of children who actually have both parents, many born with fetal alcohol syndrome and will never have a good quality of life. i wonder what was best for them. i also think a woman who has been raped etc has every right to terminate. as for those who terminate for convenience and lifestyle(who didnt want children) i question how they got into the situation in the first place. an unwanted child is an unwanted child and making the parent keep him/her isnt going to do any good nor is trying to give to an orphanage as just not enough people want those poor children. rather to educate in birth control and some good ol fashioned "keep your legs closed" than have to go through the rest.

Willy
24-05-2010, 09:23
i didn't hijack your thread. You challenged the very notion of what we believe. I corrected Shurale on a few points tis all.

you claim i don't give a morsel of evidence that a superior being exists- do i actually have to? i am not challenging your beliefs, you are challenging mine. Prove to me that there is no God. i believe it is entirely logical and rational to believe in God and many in the scientific community agree with me. of course not all do. only about half.

Where in the bible does it say anything that says you cannot create artifical life? it doesnt. in ANY bible.

You mistake peoples desire to avoid the horrors of the Nazis bioengineering with christianity. in fairness many christians do too. it could just be that a great deal of believers in God are also people who care about their fellow man and where this could lead. As a society we have to decide what we want. lets look at the future, without those pesty religious freaks in the way:

selective breeding of personality traits so your child does not display abnormal behaviour
selection of physical characteristics so child is stronger, faster and more intelligent
selection of racial type and features. you could choose the whiteness of your child's skin.
bodies grown to be harvested for stem cells, or infact even to replace body parts of the living.
cloning children or yourself as a likeness, instead of having a biological child
in the far future a human born without either parent.

as for abortion, i guess i am pro-choice, with conditions. my son was originally diagnosed with down syndrome then it was spina bfida. we already had a daughter. we had to make a decision and quickly. we felt that the time and commitment and financial burden would affect us and our daughter greatly and not be fair on her. we knew many of our friends who had their marriages fail after the birth of a handicapped child. we considered it, it would be heart wrenching, but then the later results came back that the boy was going to be fine. if we had rushed into an abortion we would of lost our son. i am also aware that places like Russia have orphanages full of children who actually have both parents, many born with fetal alcohol syndrome and will never have a good quality of life. i wonder what was best for them. i also think a woman who has been raped etc has every right to terminate. as for those who terminate for convenience and lifestyle(who didnt want children) i question how they got into the situation in the first place. an unwanted child is an unwanted child and making the parent keep him/her isnt going to do any good nor is trying to give to an orphanage as just not enough people want those poor children. rather to educate in birth control and some good ol fashioned "keep your legs closed" than have to go through the rest.



Well then just thank god for making sure everyone stays ignorant.



YouTube- Frank Zappa - The Meek Shall Inherit Nothing+Heavenly Bank Account - Paris 1980

YouTube- Frank Zappa - Dumb All Over

len
24-05-2010, 12:13
Shurale all that is so IF the OLD TESTAMENT law was in place, but we are running on the new and improved "grace" model....hence such things no longer apply.

who says the old testament is not in place? that is where the ten commandments still apply in the new testament. there is nothing like improved Grace. God is the same today tomoro....it is us who change by grace.

In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called the Sermon on the Mount, these words of Jesus are recorded: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

in my opinion heaven and earth are yet to pass.

Ian G
24-05-2010, 12:21
A few different conversations going on in this thread- a lot of them seem to be about God and religion- subjects which weren't mentioned in the original article.
I'd just like to challenge Rusmeister's logic when he introduced the word 'eugenics'.
Eugenics is about humans- it's a rightly discredited idea that 'selective breeding' or genetics can be used to 'improve' the human race in some way. A repulsive idea, indeed, and fortunately one which people will never accept. It's one thing for people to think carefully when choosing who to marry/ start a family with. It's totally another thing for scientists or politicians to dictate people's choices in this area as part of some twisted 'good of the race' or 'benefit of humanity' agenda.

I mentioned selective breeding with reference to animals and plants- (farming, breeding horses or dogs etc). Is that eugenics? Selection of mould, generation after generation, to create antibiotics- is that also eugenics and evil? Using genetically modified bacteria to make diesel- another scientific breakthrough of the last couple of years- eugenics? Fields of goldern corn-the result of millennia of selection- eugenics?

I agree there are some morally objectionable uses of selective breeding. Breeding obese pigs -basically just eating machines- so we can then slaughter them and eat them- to me is wrong. So is breeding dogs that look cute but have problems breeding-such as pugs. I squirm inwardly when I see pictures of hairless cats or glow-in-the-dark gene-spliced hamsters. But these are not example of 'eugenics'. Nor is Craig Venter's work.

len
24-05-2010, 12:27
Len,
firstly, God cleans you of your sins.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

secondly, you become fit to carry out His will.

Like this:

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Which means that Harry Potter should be stoned and hung up before the Lord against the sun. O.K. I know the boy is not real, but that is what they would have done to him.

Rusmeister, should people who read horoscopes be stoned, too?

Shurale:
i still do not believe that clensing is a license to killing. Which reminds me why was Stephen stoned? a reighteous man i believe, who still cried lord forgive them for they know not what they are doing. were the stoners reighteous?

Acts 6:5 introduces a faithful man of God named Stephen: “a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit.” It is noteworthy that there have always been those faithful believers whose love for and commitment to the Lord seems to shine through so greatly that others around them notice, and Stephen was such a man. Nothing is known about Stephen’s personal life—his parents, his siblings, whether he had a wife, or children; however, what is known about him is what is truly important. He was faithful, even when faced with certain death.

len
24-05-2010, 12:30
A few different conversations going on in this thread- a lot of them seem to be about God and religion- subjects which weren't mentioned in the original article.



It is Hard to not talk about God.

yakspeare
24-05-2010, 12:39
who says the old testament is not in place? that is where the ten commandments still apply in the new testament. there is nothing like improved Grace. God is the same today tomoro....it is us who change by grace.

In Matthew’s record of what is commonly called the Sermon on the Mount, these words of Jesus are recorded: “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished” (Matthew 5:17-18).

in my opinion heaven and earth are yet to pass.

i have already answered this one passage in this thread. did Jesus fulfill the law? did he accomplish his mission? if he did, then the old law is completed and a new one comes into affect.

you do realise you can't separate the ten commandments from the 603 other commandments of the Jewish faith? This is simply not permitted. Thus you have to follow ALL of them. The death of Christ was to give us freedom from doing this and infact we are cautioned in how we should use this freedom. it all lies on him, not us to do this law. he is the scapegoats so we can be free of the law.

xfactor2000
24-05-2010, 14:06
This breakthrough is not that significant. The true 'moment of truth' will come when we'll be able to create sentient life or machines, which I believe will never happen.

rusmeister
24-05-2010, 20:24
To the people who accept that faith and reason are compatible, I'll say that it is useless arguing because we do not accept a common authority to appeal to. Those that claim the Bible to be the authority are actually appealing to their own authority to interpret what Scripture says. Thus, you can argue till the cows come home, and get nowhere on any kind of agreement. You have to first find common ground to which to later disagree from, but again, as soon as you appeal to different authorities, game over, unless one party is ready to see that another is more correct on the question of authority.

rusmeister
24-05-2010, 20:40
A few different conversations going on in this thread- a lot of them seem to be about God and religion- subjects which weren't mentioned in the original article.
I'd just like to challenge Rusmeister's logic when he introduced the word 'eugenics'.
Eugenics is about humans- it's a rightly discredited idea that 'selective breeding' or genetics can be used to 'improve' the human race in some way. A repulsive idea, indeed, and fortunately one which people will never accept. It's one thing for people to think carefully when choosing who to marry/ start a family with. It's totally another thing for scientists or politicians to dictate people's choices in this area as part of some twisted 'good of the race' or 'benefit of humanity' agenda.

I mentioned selective breeding with reference to animals and plants- (farming, breeding horses or dogs etc). Is that eugenics? Selection of mould, generation after generation, to create antibiotics- is that also eugenics and evil? Using genetically modified bacteria to make diesel- another scientific breakthrough of the last couple of years- eugenics? Fields of goldern corn-the result of millennia of selection- eugenics?

I agree there are some morally objectionable uses of selective breeding. Breeding obese pigs -basically just eating machines- so we can then slaughter them and eat them- to me is wrong. So is breeding dogs that look cute but have problems breeding-such as pugs. I squirm inwardly when I see pictures of hairless cats or glow-in-the-dark gene-spliced hamsters. But these are not example of 'eugenics'. Nor is Craig Venter's work.

Hi Ian!
I don't mind challenges at all, as long as they remain civil. I have responses to your challenge, if you don't mind:
The first thing is that I agree with you on current intent of most scientists. It is likely as you state. But that is not a static thing.
Anyone who accepts that humans are merely highly developed animals can accept the logic that if animals may be selectively breeded, then humans, as animals par excellence, may also be selectively breeded - and some people feel that way today. It's an old idea. It used to be called "the superman" until DC Comics copped that term. People from Nietzsche to GB Shaw dreamed about it (him).
The great Nazi experiment brought the ideas under their old name so low that to this day, people are unwilling to return to that term. It showed where the idea logically leads. But there is no basis, as I have already indicated, for saying that people will "never" accept an idea. They will accept any idea at all, if lead to it properly.

So again, it is true that experiments on animals may not be "eugenics" in the sense of experimenting on humans. But we already see inroads there with the use of stem cells. And for roughly a century a majority of the populace in the western world, at any rate, accepts the idea that humans are highly advanced animals, rather than beings created in God's image (which, when accepted, nips eugenics in the bud). We no longer accept that a fetus is human - abortion is now approved through a significant portion of pregnancy in most western countries, so there is an abundance of evidence that people accept the idea that we are only animals. Therefore it seems obvious to me that it is now a very short step to the final stage - moving from stem cells to manipulating us because we are only animals. Give it a different name, and use the right terms, euphemisms, etc, and people will accept it. It IS the rebirth of eugenics under a different name. Proponents would never start by anything so blatant as Hitler's "final solution". They would start with small steps...like experimenting on animals.

MickeyTong
24-05-2010, 21:21
YouTube- FRANK ZAPPA COSMIK DEBRIS

MickeyTong
24-05-2010, 21:44
..... if animals may be selectively breeded, then humans, as animals par excellence, may also be selectively breeded...

Rus......

Back in the Olden Days (before God apparently changed his rules about monotheism and stumped for a patriarchal version of the Triple Goddess) the Law clearly stated that disobedient children should be killed. This would serve the purpose of removing from the gene pool those who were genetically inclined towards misbehaviour, thus purifying the Superman Chosen People of the defective traits which lead to divine displeasure. Selective breeding for preferred characteristics, leading to their idea of a perfect society.

MickeyTong
24-05-2010, 21:54
Those that claim the Bible to be the authority are actually appealing to their own authority to interpret what Scripture says.

Where does the Orthodox Church get its authority? What makes its interpretation of scripture authoritative?

Surely, accepting the authority of (any) church first requires individuals to make some interpretation of scripture themselves, before joining a particular church which makes sense to what they understand. Confirmation bias must be a factor.

is4fun
24-05-2010, 23:24
Where does the Orthodox Church get its authority? What makes its interpretation of scripture authoritative?

Surely, accepting the authority of (any) church first requires individuals to make some interpretation of scripture themselves, before joining a particular church which makes sense to what they understand. Confirmation bias must be a factor.

My first answer to this common question would be to the one who interprets what they read in those words. Very well done Mr. Tong... :)

rusmeister
25-05-2010, 08:25
Where does the Orthodox Church get its authority? What makes its interpretation of scripture authoritative?

Surely, accepting the authority of (any) church first requires individuals to make some interpretation of scripture themselves, before joining a particular church which makes sense to what they understand. Confirmation bias must be a factor.

As to the first question, the answer is apostolic succession, something that Rome also had until the Great Schism.
Its authority is based on paradosis - which in practical terms, means the passing on of Holy Tradition. (I'll bet people get a knee-jerk reaction from the word "holy".) Thus, no one can do anything on their own authority, not even metropolitans and Patriarchs. Everything they say, everything they teach must come from that Tradition, among which Scripture holds the highest place. and yet Scripture is not the whole of Tradition.

If you are not merely looking to smirk and laugh (which doesn't strike me as your type, but on Christianity you do seem to have this tendency - strange because you obviously get that Islam has things worthy of respect - I'd think you'd have a similar awareness of Christian things), but really want to learn, here is the single best - and most authoritative source online in English:

http://www.oca.org/OCorthfaith.asp?SID=2

And here is a run-down of what makes up that tradition (you'd get to it pretty quick from the first link):
http://www.oca.org/OCIndex-TOC.asp?SID=2&book=Doctrine&section=Sources%20of%20Christian%20Doctrine

As to whether - and why - a person should "interpret Scripture on their own" - something I maintain that we are unable to do, and which those of you who have learned a second language and culture would have an inkling of the difficulties involved in understanding languages and cultures far removed in space and time - and all the more when you propose to establish a complete scheme of life from these writings.

I think the most objective way to avoid confirmation bias is to study Church history - and not to start studying from this end - which is like an electrician looking at a tangled jumble of wires and asking where power is - but from the beginning, and all the time asking, "Where did the Church go?" "Was there an authentic Church with authority to teach? Or was it just individuals with opinions?" It's really easy to trace a (more or less) united Church for the first millenium - I think one of the more shocking things for a Protestant Christian is to go to either the Holy land or, say, the ancient remains in Turkey and find 3rd and 4th century churches with...icons. the same ones used in the Orthodox Church today.
http://www.antiochian.org/assets/word/MARCH2008WORD.pdf
Scroll down to pg 14, Joel Schaefer's story (who was twelve at the time of the story!)
Or better yet, just read it here:


Five years ago, I had an amazing opportunity to
walk in the footsteps of the early Church — actually
hike around Asia Minor, visiting ancient cities. It
was incredible! I happened to be the only Orthodox
Christian in the group, as it was a specifically
designed Protestant tour intended to follow “In the
Footsteps of the Apostles.” We visited numerous
early church sites from Philadelphia to Ephesus,
plus many others.
However, Cappadocia was where I was most
impacted by the continuity of my faith — our faith,
the Orthodox Faith. Let me explain … in
Cappadocia, there are thousands of caves carved
right into the hillsides. During the persecutions of
the first three centuries, many of the churches went
“underground,” hidden in these small, inconspicuous
caverns. Hiking down into the area, we entered
our first cave. A hush fell over the whole group as
we gazed around the tiny room. The church that
once met in this hidden nook dated all the way back
to the second century. Though you could see the
wear of time, it was quite obviously an Orthodox
Church. The holiness of this place was almost palpable.
Even though I was on the other side of the
world, in a different country, where they speak an
entirely different language and have a culture distinct
from my own, I was in MY Church. Standing
there, nearly two THOUSAND years after the time
this Church was carved out, I KNEW this Church.
The rest of the group were not feeling as “at
home” and were baffled by what they saw. Even the
leader was stumbling around, trying to give details.
Pointing to an icon of Christ, he said he did not
think that this was Jesus, and then one of Mary, he
said she was “ … someone important.” Everyone
was perplexed as to why a woman (the Theotokos)
was on the wall behind the altar. Remembering a
recent discussion with my dad, I jumped in,
explaining that the reason the Mother of God is
placed behind the altar is because through her
Christ came from heaven to earth. Everybody
seemed to appreciate hearing this, including the
leader. Being a naive twelve-year-old boy, I kept
going … I explained the first icon was indeed Jesus
and why, and that the second was the Theotokos,
then identified a few more. On the right side, there
was this amazing fresco of the Dormition of the
Theotokos. The leader could not explain what they
were seeing. Nervously, I described what was going
on in the icon, plus a little more about the
Theotokos and her Dormition. The whole group
seemed genuinely happy to learn all this.
But, they were puzzled. Was I some Art History
prodigy or what? I quickly cleared that up. No, I
had studied very little art history, and was certainly
NO genius. But, I was an Orthodox Christian and
we had icons just like these in my parish back
home. In fact, we had a small replica icon of the
Dormition that was EXACTLY the same as the
fresco in this cave on the other side of the world.
Please don’t misunderstand me, I did not do
anything extraordinary; I did just what any of YOU
would have done. It was like taking someone on a
tour of your own home. I remembered what my
priest said to me right before the trip: “You will
need to be a fresh spring of Orthodoxy, in an island
of Protestants, in a Sea of Muslims …” Thinking
about this later, I realized I was able to explain
things about the Church, not because I was anyone
special; indeed, I was just a kid with limited
knowledge of theology. Never the less, I was part of
THE Church. This timeless knowledge had been
imparted to me by the Church.
I cannot express to you what that experience
meant to me … a young man, just starting to make
this Faith my own. To see firsthand the continuity
of my Orthodox Faith, from the second century to
now, was life-changing. However, I was not the only
one affected. Many in the group were shaken-up by
encountering this ancient Church, which looked,
well, not very much like the Churches they worshiped
in on Sundays. Then, having this young kid
reveal deep theological truths, simply by explaining
what the icons themselves were saying, merely because
he was Orthodox, and shared the same faith
and practice as those who had worshiped in that
small cave over eighteen centuries before …
Why do I share this today? To emphasize our
unity — we ARE united in our Faith. We are united
not only with Orthodox believers today at the
Greek and Russian churches across town here in
Portland, but with the Church in Asia Minor, as well
as the Church from the first century. It does not
matter what language we speak or the color of our
skin; the Truth remains the same, because it is not
based on us, but on Christ, who is THE Truth.
(More at the link above)

I'd think, given your connections to the Arabic world, you'd find the Antiochian Orthodox Church slightly closer to your sympathies...

It has been said that to study Church history is to become Orthodox. A little poetic, but it becomes much harder to make claims for other churches when you do.

yakspeare
25-05-2010, 09:57
rusmeister, it is no surprise that the somewhat early church 3rd and 4th century had icons. indeed this is in keeping with protestant teachings.

i spent the last week reading links provided by you and tsaski about the orthodox faith with quite an open mind and it confirms even more so that i do not believe it is "the true church".

As a protestant we are taught that , in particular at the the time of Constantine, pagan beliefs entered the church. pagan festivals were renamed as christian ones to appease the masses(ie Christmas day) and such things as veneration of Holy mother as well as son- we view has its roots in paganism. Indeed many pagan cults had such a belief. infact in reading about orthodoxy this is the biggest thing i have objection to(i also noted many orthodox arguing over the sinless nature of the Mother Mary in the orthodox forums). to us she is a normal woman who would be horrified that people would pray to her and not to her son. Many other pagan superstitions entered the church at this time such as praying to the dead etc and praying to statues and i guess icons too. there is nothing in the bible that says any of the following:

" i say unto you. Pray to the blessed mother so she can intercede for you"

"make yourself a likeness of a man of faith who is already in Heaven and pray unto him so that the Lord can hear your prayer supported by this man"

So, i respectably disagree.Nor could i see any greater claim for apostolic lineage from the orthodox church than the Catholic church.

MickeyTong
25-05-2010, 21:22
As to the first question, the answer is apostolic succession, something that Rome also had until the Great Schism.
Its authority is based on paradosis - which in practical terms, means the passing on of Holy Tradition...........

Yes, Rus, apostolic succession. But accepting any church's claims to this would require a person to have first gained some knowledge of who the Apostles were and what they were transmitting (apostoling?). So a person would need to have already read about Jesus (probably in the Bible) or have heard people talking about him, and formed an opinion, prior to accepting/rejecting the authority of an institution which claims to represent God. And that opinion will, necessarily, be based on the person's knowledge and predilections.

Only infants have a truly "open" mind: after that we tend to seek logical consistency with what we know, or have been taught, is true.

Young Mr Schaefer's story is impressive, and persuasive in confirming the longevity of Orthodox church layout. I've no doubt that he would have enjoyed an experience of both self-transcendence and affirmation of his faith.

Whether or not Church liturgy, doctrines and Holy Tradition remain the same is questionable.

shurale
26-05-2010, 03:13
Shurale:
i still do not believe that clensing is a license to killing. Which reminds me why was Stephen stoned? a reighteous man i believe, who still cried lord forgive them for they know not what they are doing. were the stoners reighteous?

Acts 6:5 introduces a faithful man of God named Stephen: “a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit.” It is noteworthy that there have always been those faithful believers whose love for and commitment to the Lord seems to shine through so greatly that others around them notice, and Stephen was such a man. Nothing is known about Stephen’s personal life—his parents, his siblings, whether he had a wife, or children; however, what is known about him is what is truly important. He was faithful, even when faced with certain death.

Licence to kill? Like James Bond?
And some people think that the Bible is something ancient and boring, whereas it's packed with action!
Unfortunately it's 1 a.m. over here and I have to get up at 6 a.m.
Why was Stephen stoned? I think the Bible commands us to obey our church elders. That's what the community did. Do you want to judge those men for acting in good faith?

len
26-05-2010, 13:53
you do realise you can't separate the ten commandments from the 603 other commandments of the Jewish faith? This is simply not permitted.



there were 603 commandments? Wow. Are the 603 just as hard to understand and interprete them deeply like the Tulmud below that i found confusing?

A young man comes to visit a noted Rabi and express his desire to study Talmud. “Do you know Aramaic?” the Rabbi asks. “No,” the young man answers.”Hebrew?” “No” “Have you studied the Tora?” No, Rabbi, but don’t worry. I graduated Columbia summa curn laude in philosophy and just finished my doctoral dissertation at Harvard on Socratic logic. So now I would just like to round out my education with a little study of the Tulmud.”
The rabbi tells the young man that he doesn’t think he’s ready to study Talmud. If you wish however, I am willing to examine you in logic. If you pass the test, I will teach you Talmud.” The young man readily agrees.
The rabbi holds up two fingers. “Two burglars break into a house through the chimney. One lands inside with a clean face, the other with a dirty face. Which one washes his face?’
The one with the dirty face”. The young man answers.
‘Wrong,” the rabbi says. “The one with the clean face washes his face. Examine the logic: the one with the dirty face looks at the one with the clean face and thinks his own face is clean. The one with the clean face looks at the one with the dirty and thinks his own face is dirty. So, the one with the clean face washes.”
‘Very clever,” the young man says. “Give me another test.”
The rabbi asks the same question, to which the eager would-be pupil responds,
“We’ve already established that the one with the clean face washes his face.’
Wrong again,’ the rabbi says. “Each one washes his face. Examine the simple logic.
The one with the dirty face looks at the one with the clean face and thinks his own is clean. The one with the clean face looks at the one with the dirty face and thinks his own is dirty. So the one with a clean face washes his face. When the man with the dirty face sees the clean-faced man washing, he also washes his face.’
I didn’t think of that.’ The young man says. ’Test me again”
The rabbi again repeats the question of the two men and the chimney, to which the young man replies, Each one washes his face.’
Wrong again, ’the rabbi says. Neither washes his face. Look at it logically. The one with the dirty face looks at the one with the lean face and thinks his own face is clean. The one with the clean face sees the dirty face of his companion and thinks his own face is dirty. But when the one with the clean face sees the one with the dirty face doesn’t wash, he also doesn’t wash his face. So neither one washes.’
The young man desperate. ‘I am qualified to study Talmud,’ he says. ‘Please give me one more test.” Again, the rabbi asks the same question. And the young man gives the obvious answer. “ Neither one washes his face.”
“Wrong,” says the rabbi. “Do you see now why Socratic logic is an insufficient basis for studying Talmud? Tell me how it is possible for two men to come down the same chimney, and for one to come out with a clean face and the other with a dirty face.”
The young man is totally exasperated and challenges the rabbi. “Now, wait a minute. Haven’t you just given me three mutually contradictory answers to the same question? That’s impossible!”
“No, my son,’ the rabbi says. “That’s Talmud.”

len
26-05-2010, 14:03
Licence to kill? Like James Bond?
And some people think that the Bible is something ancient and boring, whereas it's packed with action!
Unfortunately it's 1 a.m. over here and I have to get up at 6 a.m.
Why was Stephen stoned? I think the Bible commands us to obey our church elders. That's what the community did. Do you want to judge those men for acting in good faith?

Shurale I feel like wringing your neck.
if your church elder tells you to kill, you do not kill. you are commanded to obey them as long as they uphold the law of God. We are specifically told in the Ten commandments, Do not kill. that simple. no one is above the law of God I believe. No i do not want to judge and never will I judge anyone. There was no Good faith in the stoning just like there was no good faith in the crucifixion.

yakspeare
26-05-2010, 14:05
that is pretty accurate lol...the study of Talmud is a lifelong thing for a Jew...it is not a read it in a week and then that's it. it is part of their belief to continue to read it again and again and the more you read the less likely you are to sin etc...613 commandments in total( the 10 commandments are in that).

there is absolute truth in all things but it is like an onion where it seems to change on how deep you dig...which is what the above post alluded to.

something simple like what colour is the sky? the straight forward answer is blue.

but with refraction from the sun at dawn and dusk it is red or pink....without the scattering of blue light through molecules the real colour is black the colour of space(just like our yellow sun is white from the moon because of no atmosphere to scatter it).

so what colour is the sky has many "truths" depending on how far you go into it. but they are truths nonetheless and don't change and if you argue it is green then you are wrong on all levels.

is4fun
26-05-2010, 23:20
Well, it has never been my intention to rule and divide, however, here we have an excellent example in the division of those who believe and those that believe. Better not to believe I reckon.

yakspeare
27-05-2010, 00:15
Well, it has never been my intention to rule and divide, however, here we have an excellent example in the division of those who believe and those that believe. Better not to believe I reckon.

we are playing for keeps, a far greater reward. Rusmeister and i can disagree on certain issues but we both have our salvation assured and know where we are going.

By all means believe as you wish. You will have such wonderful hindsight later. if we are wrong, then death is the end and we will be blissfully ignorant of pain and the affairs of others. if you are wrong....well...it is not something i wish on my worst enemy.

better not to believe? i play the odds...and they are stacked in our favour.

objective
27-05-2010, 01:57
For starters, the title of your thread is blasphemous.

this is what they did with blasphemers in good old times.

1 kings 21:13 And the two worthless men came in and sat opposite him. And the worthless men brought a charge against Naboth in the presence of the people, saying, "Naboth cursed God and the king." So they took him outside the city and stoned him to death with stones.

I am reminded of a book that I read - "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
In one part they talk about a man who devised an unassailable 'Proof' that God did not exist... the book went on to say, the man, so self-impressed by his feats of logic went on to prove that 'black is white' and was susequently run over and killed on the next 'zebra crossing'.
so yeah, hubris is a fault, but deserving of stoning or whatever?:soccer:

rusmeister
27-05-2010, 05:43
rusmeister, it is no surprise that the somewhat early church 3rd and 4th century had icons. indeed this is in keeping with protestant teachings.

i spent the last week reading links provided by you and tsaski about the orthodox faith with quite an open mind and it confirms even more so that i do not believe it is "the true church".

As a protestant we are taught that , in particular at the the time of Constantine, pagan beliefs entered the church. pagan festivals were renamed as christian ones to appease the masses(ie Christmas day) and such things as veneration of Holy mother as well as son- we view has its roots in paganism. Indeed many pagan cults had such a belief. infact in reading about orthodoxy this is the biggest thing i have objection to(i also noted many orthodox arguing over the sinless nature of the Mother Mary in the orthodox forums). to us she is a normal woman who would be horrified that people would pray to her and not to her son. Many other pagan superstitions entered the church at this time such as praying to the dead etc and praying to statues and i guess icons too. there is nothing in the bible that says any of the following:

" i say unto you. Pray to the blessed mother so she can intercede for you"

"make yourself a likeness of a man of faith who is already in Heaven and pray unto him so that the Lord can hear your prayer supported by this man"

So, i respectably disagree.Nor could i see any greater claim for apostolic lineage from the orthodox church than the Catholic church.

Hi yakspeare,
I wonder how open your mind actually was. If you began with certain assumptions and preconceptions - such as (for example) that veneration of Mary and the saints is the same thing as worship due to God alone (that it is a pagan thing), then your reading would automatically interpret it as pagan without ever questioning whether it actually was. Reading biased from the outset. You have not asked the question in the first place. You have assumed the answer from what you were taught.

We can be taught anything at all. The question is whether what we were taught is true. That question, as well as the question of confession before a priest, were barriers I initially had to Orthodoxy. I later learned that it was I that had the wrong preconceptions.

There are a number of things you'd have to understand to get how we see Mary, and both that she is not God and yet is worthy of more respect than any other human who has ever existed.

Also, you seem to have the common Protestant perception that prayer is speech addressed to God. We don't mean the same thing by that word.

1) We see it as spiritual speech, period - and that God is not the only spirit.
2)We CAN ask other people to pray for us - (you have asked your friends Jack, Dave, or whoever to pray for you at some point, haven't you?)
3) The prayers of a righteous man availeth much. (The prayers of those of truly great faith are especially effective.)
4) Those who have died are merely passed on. Or as CS Lewis put it in "The Silver Chair" (Narnia) "He's died. Most of us have, you know!" (re Prince/King Caspian) Furthermore God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - He is the God of the living - not the dead. Thus, they are alive in God.

Understanding these things gives you a basis for grasping that we can ask Mary and the saints to pray for us in the same manner that we would ask people here - only we show respect while we are doing so. (The fastest explanation of veneration is to point out that we salute our flag and kiss our dearly departed mother's photo - yet no one accuses us of worshiping them.)

The other assumption- that something must "be in the Bible" in order to be accepted as valid tradition or practice - makes the practice of Christians who have had to live without Bibles very dubious - most notably the Christians of the first three centuries, who only had bits and pieces of what we call Old testament Scripture, and such epistles as they could get a hold of. There was NO Bible as such - no canon - for the first (nearly) four hundred years of the Church's existence. Are we then to say that they were not Christians or that people couldn't get it right until the canonical Bible was declared? (unless they were incredibly lucky - which would make for a gnostic religion)

The apostle Paul pointed out that not all tradition was written - that some of it was oral (2 Thess 2:15), and there is no reason to suppose that all oral tradition got into the Bible. What then, should we condemn those who use pews in church? (which are not in the Bible)

1) The Bible does not include instructions on Christian worship
2)The Bible was canonized by a definite and identifiable organization at an established historical place and time - which, by your argument, was already "riddled with paganism", making the whole Bible suspect. IOW, Men inspired by God wrote the Bible, but the Church wrote the table of contents.

Rather than speak of what you were taught - for I was also taught, and taught wrong - most especially about Catholics, for whom I now have much greater respect - you should speak of definite history; that which is verifiable and what scholars generally agree on. The trouble with protestant scholars who deny that the Church was a physically organized thing is that they have so little actual history to work from. All evidence points to an organized Church - only imagination and wishful thinking point anywhere else. (But maybe you agree, in which case it's moot.)

rusmeister
27-05-2010, 05:52
we are playing for keeps, a far greater reward. Rusmeister and i can disagree on certain issues but we both have our salvation assured and know where we are going.

By all means believe as you wish. You will have such wonderful hindsight later. if we are wrong, then death is the end and we will be blissfully ignorant of pain and the affairs of others. if you are wrong....well...it is not something i wish on my worst enemy.

better not to believe? i play the odds...and they are stacked in our favour.
Your main point is quite right.
But on salvation, I'd have to clarify...I should say that my answer would be a little more "Talmudic".
In a certain sense, salvation IS assured - but there are big "ifs".
In an important sense, my salvation is NOT assured. I have been granted free will and am free to reject it, if I choose myself and what I want over God. We don't accept the doctrine accepted by some evangelicals, such as Baptists, of "Once saved, always saved" - we speak of salvation completely differently.
We were saved (past) when Christ died and rose again.
We are being saved (present) as a process now.
We will be saved (future) if we hold the course and keep the faith.

rusmeister
27-05-2010, 05:55
I am reminded of a book that I read - "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"
In one part they talk about a man who devised an unassailable 'Proof' that God did not exist... the book went on to say, the man, so self-impressed by his feats of logic went on to prove that 'black is white' and was susequently run over and killed on the next 'zebra crossing'.
so yeah, hubris is a fault, but deserving of stoning or whatever?:soccer:
Some claims are hubris. Some are not.
One's certainty of faith is by no means necessarily hubris.

Main Entry: hu·bris
Pronunciation: \ˈhyü-brəs\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek hybris
Date: 1884

: exaggerated pride or self-confidence
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hubris

If the confidence is neither prideful nor in self, it cannot be called hubris.

rusmeister
27-05-2010, 06:11
Yes, Rus, apostolic succession. But accepting any church's claims to this would require a person to have first gained some knowledge of who the Apostles were and what they were transmitting (apostoling?). So a person would need to have already read about Jesus (probably in the Bible) or have heard people talking about him, and formed an opinion, prior to accepting/rejecting the authority of an institution which claims to represent God. And that opinion will, necessarily, be based on the person's knowledge and predilections.

Only infants have a truly "open" mind: after that we tend to seek logical consistency with what we know, or have been taught, is true.

Young Mr Schaefer's story is impressive, and persuasive in confirming the longevity of Orthodox church layout. I've no doubt that he would have enjoyed an experience of both self-transcendence and affirmation of his faith.

Whether or not Church liturgy, doctrines and Holy Tradition remain the same is questionable.

On forming an opinion - an opinion can be prejudiced, or post-judiced. It can be with sufficient intellectual backing, or not. So while I agree with your comment on open minds, the question of whether a question has been truly examined with sufficient access to information - and leads to the correct conclusion - or not - remains.

Again, I encourage you to take a deeper look at Church history. if you were as well-informed about Christianity as you evidently are about Islam, you would be framing different questions (and possibly arguments).
"Only for you" (to cop the tired Russian cliche):
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_1.htm

Doctrine, and therefore Tradition, have developed. That is inevitable. before the Arian crisis there was not a special need for what we call the Nicene creed or Symbol of faith; afterwards there was such a need.

There are words I can hardly use without getting pre-programmed knee-jerk responses from readers. Two of those are "dogma" (=doctrine" = "teaching"), and "heresy"

Dogma arises to combat heresy. The best description I've ever read of heresy was by H. Belloc in his book, "The Great Heresies":


What is a heresy, and what is the historical importance of such a
thing?

Like most modern words, "Heresy" is used both vaguely and
diversely. It is used vaguely because the modern mind is as averse to
precision in ideas as it is enamored of precision in measurement. It is
used diversely because, according to the man who uses it, it may represent
any one of fifty things.

Today, with most people (of those who use the English language),
the word "Heresy" connotes bygone and forgotten quarrels, an old prejudice

against rational examination. Heresy is therefore thought to be of
no contemporary interest. Interest in it is dead, because it deals with
matter no one now takes seriously. It is understood that a man may
interest himself in a heresy from archaeological curiosity, but if he
affirm that it has been of great effect on history and still is, today,
of living contemporary moment, he will be hardly understood.

Yet the subject of heresy in general is of the highest importance
to the individual and to society, and heresy in its particular meaning
(which is that of heresy in Christian doctrine) is of special interest for
anyone who would understand Europe: the character of Europe and the story
of Europe. For the whole of that story, since the appearance of the
Christian religion, has been the story of struggle and change, mainly
preceded by, often, if not always, caused by, and certainly accompanying,
diversities of religious doctrine. In other words, "the Christian heresy"
is a special subject of the very first importance to the comprehension of
European history, because, in company with Christian orthodoxy, it is the
constant accompaniment and agent of European life.

We must begin by a definition, although definition involves a
mental effort and therefore repels. :)

Heresy is the dislocation of some complete and self-supporting
scheme by the introduction of a novel denial of some essential part
therein.

We mean by "a complete and self-supporting scheme" any system of
affirmation in physics or mathematics or philosophy or what-not, the
various parts of which are coherent and sustain each other.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY1.TXT

Once we understand the nature of dogma, we can see how it would develop - not to CHANGE belief, but to CLARIFY it, in order to eliminate the threat of heresy.

2ndWind
27-05-2010, 07:40
There are different kinds of ignorance. Scientific/technological ignorance is only one of them.

Hi Rus,
Thanks for responding to my post. I fully expected it and you did not disappoint. :) We have exchanged a few posts in the past and since your current post seems to be directed more to me personally than to the original topic, I will reply in kind.

Ignorance - the state or fact of being ignorant (http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/ignorant) : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness. [From: http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/ignorance] (http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/ignorance])

As I have described to you before, I spent 30 years studying religion before becoming totally comfortable with my current religious beliefs. Concerning religion, I do not believe that I have a lack of knowledge, education, or awareness. I am not a walking religious encyclopedia but I did not deem it necessary to seek to attain that status.

As we have also discussed before, we both attended Baptist ministerial schools before beginning out searches. You now find yourself comfortable as a member of the Russian Orthodox Church while I, for the past 20 years, have been very comfortable with a total lack of belief in any manifestation of theism.

Yet, on the even more important areas of philosophy and theology, people are more ignorant than at any time in history. I differ with you on a couple of points here. You think that the fields of both philosophy and theology are more important than the scientific method as it is applied to studies in a great many fields. I see the study of philosophy as interesting and to some extent useful when combined with a study of history. Knowing a lot about the past can be very useful in understanding the present. On the other hand, the study of theology, except to understand how religions have negatively impacted history, is a total waste of time.

It is no good learning how to do something scientific if your philosophy is all wrong - if your understanding of the nature of man and the universe has little or no correspondence to the truth.With this I assume that you are referring to the position of yourself as well as the Russian Orthodox Church that those of us who do do not agree with you have the "wrong philosophy" and do not know the "truth".
I happen to believe my philosophy is "right" and that my understanding of the nature of man and the universe corresponds to truth!

No science can help a person if their philosophy (whether they think about it or not) amounts to the meaninglessness of life.You simply do not understand that life is meaningless! I think it is far better to accept reality and deal with it than to allow our heads to be filled with baseless mumbojumbo and magical delusions of a cosmic magician, life after death, etc.

When things go south, despair, and abuse of technical inventions, right up to killing of self or others, are likely results.I do not know the source of your assertion. Please provide. I have seen one study which determined that non-theists are less likely to divorce than theists but nothing relating to suicide and murder rates of non-theists vs theists. I tend to think that the rates are much lower for non-theists. since we know that the end is really the end.

It's no good inventing awesome things and making awesome discoveries if we don't truly understand who we are and why we are here.Here again you are making the assertion that awesome scientific discoveries which affect every part of our lives from health care to transportation are of no value unless everyone decides to profess a belief in your theistic belief system. This, to me, is insanely egotistical.


Also, a mystic is not a magician. A mystic sees a world beyond the mere material one.Mystic:
1 : mystical (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mystical)
2 : of or relating to mysteries or esoteric rites : occult (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/occult)
3 : of or relating to mysticism or mystics
4 a : mysterious (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mysterious) b : obscure (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obscure), enigmatic (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/enigmatic) c : inducing a feeling of awe or wonder d : having magical properties <------------- ******
[From: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mystic]

Magician:
a conjurer or magician who creates illusions, as by sleight of hand.

Perhaps I could have called church officials "illusionists". They make a living by the illusion of providing useful services.
They are able to convince millions of people of the illusion that there are magical places that people go to after they die but that they have to have the right beliefs in order to go the "nice" magical place.
They convince otherwise sane people that they have a special relationship with deceased people who are now living in the magical place and that, through appeals to these deceased persons, they are able to request special favors from the master magician himself.


FWIW, I also kick back against some of the things that trouble you about faith.I am not troubled by faith. Faith is an essential part of the daily life of all sane people.
I have faith that when I flip a light switch, turn on a faucet, turn the ignition key in my car, hit the send button when I finish this post, etc. these things will work as expected. Sometimes things don't work right and I have faith that I can fix the problem or at least get it fixed. I have faith that proven mathematical formulas which worked yesterday will work exactly the same way today.

I just don't have faith that there is a mystical, anthropomorphic entity who resides somewhere outside the universe and etc., etc. Personally, I believe that people who claim to believe in such a thing could be diagnosed as insane. People who indoctrinate children in such beliefs should be arrested for child abuse. I know that belief in mysticism/magic is ingrained in human culture and attempts to eradicate it are doomed to failure but I can, at least, hope that it will die out over time.

While I have your attention, I would like to mention a couple of things from our exchanges of a few months ago.
1.) In one of my first posts, I guestimated that you were a "fundamentalists". You clarified that by saying that you rejected some of the essential fundamentalist beliefs. Then it came to me that you are an apologetic. I should have known from your several references to Lewis and Chesterton.

Apologetics:
Branch of Christian theology (http://www.answers.com/topic/theology) devoted to the intellectual defense of faith. In Protestantism (http://www.answers.com/topic/protestantism), apologetics is distinguished from polemics, the defense of a particular sect. In Roman Catholicism (http://www.answers.com/topic/roman-catholicism), apologetics refers to the defense of the whole of Catholic teaching. Apologetics has traditionally argued positively to quell believers' doubts and negatively against opposing beliefs to remove obstacles to conversion. It attempts to take objections to Christianity seriously without giving ground to skepticism.
[From: http://www.answers.com/topic/apologetics]

2.) In one post I asserted that there is no evidence whatsoever that there ever was a historical Jesus. I think I gave some web sources for this opinion but you just blew it off. Can you give even a single authenticated reference to a single contemporaneous record related to a historical Jesus?

yakspeare
27-05-2010, 11:01
Most scientist and historians believe in a historical Jesus. It is quite an uphill argument to disagree, but i respect your right to do so. The roman record has been put into question, namely from josephus, but there are still so many more...some 24000 manuscripts exist from those first few centuries of the bible, for example. it is often said, and quite true, that there is more evidence he existed than Julius Caesar. but people generally accept that Julius Caesar was an Emperor of Rome.

This is the extract from Josephus in what is widely considered the correct form.there is another form that appears to have had "christian inteference" with some additions to it which break up the flow of the text:

At this time there appeared Jesus, a wise man. For he was a doer of startling deeds, a teacher of people who receive the truth with pleasure. And he gained a following among many Jews and among many of Gentile origin. And when Pilate, because of an accusation made by the leading men among us, condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him previously did not cease to do so. And up until this very day the tribe of Christians (named after him) had not died out.


The next bit scholars have no doubt is 100% authentic in another text:

But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as lawbreakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.

This was all written in the first century about 40 years after the death of Jesus by a highly respected man in the Roman empire.

There is a lot more, some of more dubious proofs than others. i wonder how much proof that you existed long after your death...i am tracing my family tree and even 200 years ago it becomes hard to trace. Considering the number of believers so readily and quickly after the supposed death it seems more LIKELY he existed than not.

of course Troy was considered a myth too...now you don't debate the existence of Troy only the wooden horse. i would say the same about Jesus...debate the miracles, debate his claims, debate his ressurection but on the claim he existed or not, i consider it a yes.

yakspeare
27-05-2010, 11:24
Rusmeister,

I have no doubt the church itself was organized "the church at Epheseus", "Antioch" etc...

Those churches had the benefit of the Apostles who had lived and seen the Christ and then Paul to guide them and also in that period of time the gospels were written and although no canonization occurred at the time i am pretty sure the Apostles could say "yeah that gospel is one of ours" and "that one isn't". So between miracle wielding Apostles and scriptures i think they were in good hands and had a very good idea of what the bible would be made of as it was written.

I accept what you say about veneration etc but what i don't agree with is the actions of the believers. This is where the role of the mother is distorted. In Catholicism Mary is mentioned more than Jesus. I know lots of Catholics(including my brother). Statues of Mary are everywhere....we have weeping statues and the like and all that stuff. People touching statues to be healed etc.

I don't consider Mary without sin- i read the arguments on the orthodox forums i visited. for all of sinned and fallen short of the glory of God...

I also say, considering perhaps church bias over the centuries, it is truly remarkably that there is no mention of this veneration in the bible. something so fundamental to orthodoxy and catholicism OUGHT be there.

I also will say it is somewhat a slippery slope to have the bible + traditions model. This allows the argument of requiring further intepretation or subsequent books like the Christian Science reader or the Mormon Pearl of great price and book of Mormon. It puts your claims on par with theirs.

Of course yours may very well be true but i prefer the simpler model which we all agree on, the bible. As for an open mind, yes I truly have one....apart from a couple of times as a guest i have not stepped in a protestant congregation for 14 years.

I also 100% agree with you on the matter of salvation that it was already done for us, is a process now and a future event. Our salvation is assured insomuch that God doesn't break his promise if you fulfill his conditions.

I am especially conscious of the situation I am in right now, which i won't discuss here. those of greater knowledge or revelation are expected to be of a higher standard. ignorance is indeed bliss...if only it didnt have such disastrous consequences.

bonald
27-05-2010, 11:36
Hello people, concerning on the title of the thread, I really disagree that "Man is god!". In such a way that a man created an artificial life, there's no such way a man can be compared to God. God can make everything from nothing but a man can only do something from something.

len
27-05-2010, 17:25
Well, it has never been my intention to rule and divide, however, here we have an excellent example in the division of those who believe and those that believe. Better not to believe I reckon.

Its like they say: Its better for man to live like there is a God then die and find there is none than man to live like there is no God only to die and find there is a God.

Which one is better for you?

shurale
27-05-2010, 18:10
Len,

1. I made a small mistake, you should obey your priests, not church elders.
This is not just my opinion, this is what God says through the Bible.

Deuteronomy 17
9And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:

10And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:

11According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.

12And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.

2) The Commandment is not "Do not kill".
It is "Do not murder".
Therefore you cannot take life of your husband because you desire somebody who is younger, more virile and has better looks. That would be murder and as a murderess you will deserve death.
But if your husband works on Saturdays
then you should tell your pastor and the whole community will stone him
(that is not murder!)

Numbers 15
32And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

33And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.

34And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.

35And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

36And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

"No one is above the law of God I believe."

I agree absolutely.

"No i do not want to judge and never will I judge anyone."

1 Corinthians 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

I don't know, you decide to waiver your God-given right to judge. I don't think it is a good, godly decision, but perhaps you should ask your pastor.

"There was no Good faith in the stoning ...."

Do you mean no good faith in the stoning of Stephen or stoning in general?

" There was no Good faith in the stoning just like there was no good faith in the crucifixion."

Deuternomy 13
6If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

7Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;

8Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

9But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

10And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Well, the Bible wasn't written yet, they (those Jews) didn't go to Sunday schools, some Stephen put in his head that he should worship some strange Jesus... Of course Stephen was right, as we know it now.



Shurale I feel like wringing your neck.
if your church elder tells you to kill, you do not kill. you are commanded to obey them as long as they uphold the law of God. We are specifically told in the Ten commandments, Do not kill. that simple. no one is above the law of God I believe. No i do not want to judge and never will I judge anyone. There was no Good faith in the stoning just like there was no good faith in the crucifixion.

shurale
27-05-2010, 18:52
we are playing for keeps, a far greater reward. Rusmeister and i can disagree on certain issues but we both have our salvation assured and know where we are going.

By all means believe as you wish. You will have such wonderful hindsight later. if we are wrong, then death is the end and we will be blissfully ignorant of pain and the affairs of others. if you are wrong....well...it is not something i wish on my worst enemy.

better not to believe? i play the odds...and they are stacked in our favour.

Will heretics go to heaven?

2ndWind
27-05-2010, 20:01
better not to believe? i play the odds...and they are stacked in our favour.

"Pascal's Wager"

YouTube- QI: David Mitchell on Pascal's Wager - Heaven For Atheists

yakspeare
27-05-2010, 21:53
that was quite good.

this is one of my favourites though:

YouTube- Rowan Atkinson in Hell - WITH SUBTITLES

is4fun
27-05-2010, 23:30
Its like they say: Its better for man to live like there is a God then die and find there is none than man to live like there is no God only to die and find there is a God.

Which one is better for you?

Only one form of reason len, there was never a god nor is there a god now nor will be there one in the future. Simple. Accept it.

is4fun
27-05-2010, 23:33
we are playing for keeps, a far greater reward. Rusmeister and i can disagree on certain issues but we both have our salvation assured and know where we are going.

By all means believe as you wish. You will have such wonderful hindsight later. if we are wrong, then death is the end and we will be blissfully ignorant of pain and the affairs of others. if you are wrong....well...it is not something i wish on my worst enemy.

better not to believe? i play the odds...and they are stacked in our favour.

How are the odds stacked in your favor? This is a vote? LOL

yakspeare
27-05-2010, 23:55
How are the odds stacked in your favor? This is a vote? LOL

could be ;)

i am doing okay but i am not in first place...the orthodoxy guys have the first few spots tied up....seems they rigged it by getting support of the Saints and Apostles Cartel and even got the mother involved...i am just relying on my relationship with the big man himself...but if those saints get into his ear, i might drop further down the list.

Can't see you here though, you didn't get an invite?

is4fun
28-05-2010, 00:14
could be ;)

i am doing okay but i am not in first place...the orthodoxy guys have the first few spots tied up....seems they rigged it by getting support of the Saints and Apostles Cartel and even got the mother involved...i am just relying on my relationship with the big man himself...but if those saints get into his ear, i might drop further down the list.

Can't see you here though, you didn't get an invite?

Well done yakspeare. I admire someone who does not push other people into believing what they do even if their beliefs are contrary to that of my own. :)

yakspeare
28-05-2010, 01:17
one thing i do believe...is God has a sense of humour and irony...something many do forget and i am only hear discussing religion because it is welcome here. Not only that i also remember what it was like as an Atheist(i was never agnostic) and i won't attack other's beliefs- but i can politely disagree with them.

sometimes religion can be fun. close to 10 years ago now the census came out in Australia which asked what religion you were. i, and many like me, put down "JEDI"...we were 600 votes short in the end of it becoming classified as a religion in Australia. Imagine going to jedi church on sundays, gving your donation tax free to push the jedi message "the force is your friend" and be able to walk around in dark robes.

the census boys got upset at us and the following census, despite getting the required votes(thanks to them saying anyone who would misuse it by putting JEDI would be prosecuted) they decided that JEDI was not allowed to be a recognized religion.

I was so close to being a JEDI...

:(

Now THAT is an excuse for a rebellion!

Russian Lad
28-05-2010, 05:33
one thing i do believe...is God has a sense of humour and irony...

Is it like when He crashes a passenger plane into a pulp, killing all passengers aboard, including some women and children? Your God, He is a practical prankster, it seems... Other than that, I am a believer in a supreme being, but not in the primitive tale in the Bible. Yeah, and He does not care about us at all, like we don't care about the fate of tape worms. Or you think differently? I would like an honest and direct answer, not a snot-munching equivocal ambiguity wrapped in windy theological ruminations in the style of russmeister.

len
28-05-2010, 09:30
Only one form of reason len, there was never a god nor is there a god now nor will be there one in the future. Simple. Accept it.

NEVER

yakspeare
28-05-2010, 10:37
Is it like when He crashes a passenger plane into a pulp, killing all passengers aboard, including some women and children? Your God, He is a practical prankster, it seems... Other than that, I am a believer in a supreme being, but not in the primitive tale in the Bible. Yeah, and He does not care about us at all, like we don't care about the fate of tape worms. Or you think differently? I would like an honest and direct answer, not a snot-munching equivocal ambiguity wrapped in windy theological ruminations in the style of russmeister.

RL, he gaves us autonomy and the ability to think for ourselves and is not a micro-manager of our daily lives. He does not deny us personal responsibility either. planes crash because pilot error or mechanical error and of course God putting mountains in the way long ago. If he was throwing fireballs at jetliners then your argument holds water but otherwise a plane crash generally has very little to do with God. We are taught that the world is in a broken state(the fall) so we get sick and die on our own. we shoot and kill each on our own and all such things....you can't say why did God let that happen and still allow the concept of free-will.

God CAN and DOES intervene in certain circumstances, I have had one clear experience of that when i was 19. It is something that i don't really choose to have mocked on this forum but their was about 500 witnesses to it, most were christians but some weren't, including the emergency crews and volunteers and they all became christians afterwards. Thing is, despite having this very clear miracle(and therefore not even requiring and ounce of faith any more) later my mind wanted to reject it as unreal or even a dream etc. our tiny brains cannot really cope with the concept of God or miracles. Indeed, like the bible said, that even if someone was raised from the dead and visited you and told you the truth...i sincerely believe you would reject it as mass hysteria, delusion, mental illness or the like. And this is quite a normal and rational response even if it isn't true.

Russian Lad
28-05-2010, 10:57
God CAN and DOES intervene in certain circumstances, I have had one clear experience of that when i was 19. It is something that i don't really choose to have mocked on this forum but their was about 500 witnesses to it, most were christians but some weren't, including the emergency crews and volunteers and they all became christians afterwards. Thing is, despite having this very clear miracle(and therefore not even requiring and ounce of faith any more) later my mind wanted to reject it as unreal or even a dream etc. our tiny brains cannot really cope with the concept of God or miracles. Indeed, like the bible said, that even if someone was raised from the dead and visited you and told you the truth...i sincerely believe you would reject it as mass hysteria, delusion, mental illness or the like. And this is quite a normal and rational response even if it isn't true.

Isn't it a quantum stretch of logic to claim that God does not throw fireballs at planes, hence men (pilots, whoever) are responsible for the fate of those who died on board (let's say all of them), and to see that it is God-made miracle when, for example, one passenger out of, say, 200 somehow manages to stay alive after the crash? So, when everybody dies, God has nothing to do with it and it is all our fault, but when someone stays alive it is a God-made miracle? Just trying to understand your logic, though, it seems to me, it was drastically affected by the "miracle" you referred to. Once I did not die in a very serious car crash, it was very tempting for me to call it a miracle, but then one of the people I knew quite well died under similar circumstances and I asked myself:"Why, am I better than him?" The answer was no.

yakspeare
28-05-2010, 11:14
RL i completely agree with you. we often don't know when there is intervention or not and it is always difficult and hardly comforting when some religious person says "yes miracle you were saved" and "God's will that he died".

I was hit by lightning when i was 10, it actually stuck the tree next to me as i was running towards it(mistakenly thinking the burnt out tree offered protection under the myth lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place). It was an incredible experience at the time with everything going blue around me and i think i was in mid-air for most of it(as i was running)...this is an example where maybe God and maybe just simple science was at work. I have thought long and hard whether my feet were in ground contact at the time the lightning swept under me and i just don't know. I am sure there IS a scientific explanation in there about how i survived so it is in the maybe category.

The incident when i was 19 was so obvious to anyone and everyone that, as i said, non-believers became believers. i saw grown men, pastors of their various churches burst into tears..something i would never forget.

i have zero credibility to discuss it and have people believe on this forum. i share this story with my personal friends only. if i discuss it here i would just come off as delusional religious nut pushing an agenda and it be used to mock me by others in argument.

Russian Lad
28-05-2010, 11:21
The incident when i was 19 was so obvious to anyone and everyone that, as i said, non-believers became believers.


I guess I would believe, too, if someone buried a year ago rises from the dead, for example. But what or whom will I need to believe in? Christ? What if it was some other, totally different force in action? Something the humans don't even have a name for yet? In other words, how were you sure it was God's work strictly in compliance with the Book (the Bible)? What if it was something totally different?

yakspeare
28-05-2010, 12:09
Again a very good point and i do have an open mind and a scientific one so i measure all claims of miracles with skepticism.

you have to go through the following sort of process.

was it an act of God

if yes was it from your God

if yes was it precisely from your God as you know or understand or did he help out despite your ignorance of some of his nature.

I am going to choose to share it here. You can judge it on your merits but please understand i am merely sharing personal experience and i have ALREADY debated with myself long or hard whether it was adrenaline, delusion and everything else.

i was 19 and i was struggling with my faith. infact i was pretty much about to give up on the whole christian thing. i had been quite depressed(though i was not on any medication) and went and talked to the youth pastor.

he quoted me the following verse " 'He will command his angels concerning you to guard you carefully; they will lift you up in their hands,so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "

It was a strange verse to quote, as it is from the psalms but i didn't know this at the time and only knew the devil used this quote to tempt Jesus to jump from a great height.

anyway i went on this christian camp centre which had people from all different denominations in their own groups there. i was with the other young members of our church.

that night we played "spotlight" in the forest where you have to hide from those with torches and try and sneak back to the "base" without being caught. It was just before midnight and very dark and they decided to have one last game. If you were caught they had eggs to throw at you, the eggs had to actually hit you for you to lose.

I was spotted and ran through the forest and i was literally sprinting and could not see, it was here that i ran off a waterfall with a drop of about 10 metres. it is quite an experience flying through the air, remembering i had been running at full speed and i went down head first towards the rocks. Suddenly that verse popped into my head. when it did i felt THOUSANDS of tiny hands grab me and turn me over so i was no longer falling head first. it was very real sensation but on its own could be discounted as being something else i guess to someone who didnt feel the touch.

I landed hard, REAL hard. So hard infact that people even 500 metres away(so they say not I) heard it. mind you it was the middle of the night. of course it took all the air from my lungs too. i couldnt move.

everyone climbed down the waterfall to help, my feet were in the creek and i quickly got very cold and went into shock. i had no sensation in my feet at all, a bone was protruding from my leg and my left arm was clearly smashed. i was more worried about the lack of real feeling below my neck though.

cut it short, everyone came. Rescue volunteers with lighting etc and after 4 hours lying there, the ambulance. prognosis was broken arm, broken open fractured leg and , at the very least, spinal bruising which could impair my ability to walk(i heard them whisper this to my pastor). maybe it was the drugs they put me on but i wouldnt shut up about God the whole time in the ambulance etc.

we got to the hosptial and i was put in a room and fell asleep while i was waiting for attention. A doctor came in a few hours later , i know they had X-rayed me but i don't really remember this part.

The doctor said to me " There is nothing wrong with you. Get up" When he said this a strange sensation came over me, like i knew something was true and real, and i immediately thought of this:

Luke 5:24 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins..." He said to the paralyzed man, "I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home."

i sprung up and couldn't believe i didn't even have a scratch on me. i looked at my leg and arm and they were perfectly normal. The ambulance guys went absolutely nuts when they saw me and the two members of the church who were asleep in the waiting room actually thought they had died and gone to heaven to see me casually walking towards them. When i got back you should of seen the reaction and when others came to enquire how i was doing in hospital, everyone would point to me and say he is over there.

A great deal of it i can't understand and it is an incredible and true story. i have no idea really why it happened and indeed it didn't make me some super-preacher later on or anything like that. The power of it fades in time but i still remember it vividly. i accept that you will say that either i am lying or that i was mistaken etc in this experience. But i know the truth and power with every essence of my being.

Russian Lad
28-05-2010, 14:09
A great deal of it i can't understand and it is an incredible and true story. i have no idea really why it happened and indeed it didn't make me some super-preacher later on or anything like that. The power of it fades in time but i still remember it vividly. i accept that you will say that either i am lying or that i was mistaken etc in this experience. But i know the truth and power with every essence of my being.


It is an extremely amazing story indeed, thank you for sharing.
The medical people who rushed you into the hospital and those who examined you, did they have any records made as to what was broken, etc.?

shurale
28-05-2010, 14:44
Is it like when He crashes a passenger plane into a pulp, killing all passengers aboard, including some women and children? Your God, He is a practical prankster, it seems... Other than that, I am a believer in a supreme being, but not in the primitive tale in the Bible. Yeah, and He does not care about us at all, like we don't care about the fate of tape worms. Or you think differently? I would like an honest and direct answer, not a snot-munching equivocal ambiguity wrapped in windy theological ruminations in the style of russmeister.

Russian Lad, I would like to answer honestly and directly about His Care.
He cares about us all. You see there you cannot make that comparison with tapeworms because there is a huge difference between us and God, and that difference is not just intellectual difference.
And because He cares so much about us, His creatures, He inspired some people to write about Him.

Do you know the story of Achan, son of Carmi of the tribe of Judah?
When the Israelites crossed the Jordan and captured Jericho, Achan violated the ban placed on Jericho and took a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them burying them in the ground under his tent. Achan's sin brought retribution upon the Israelites, who were defeated in their attempts to take Ai.

Joshua 7:5 And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water.

When lots were cast to determine the guilty party Achan was discovered. He then confessed his sin publicly before the Lord.
Achan and his household were stoned in the Valley of Achor (Josh 7:10-25). In I Chronicles 2:7 Achan is called "Achar, the troubler of Israel".

http://www.answers.com/topic/achan

As you have shown concern about some women and children on the hypothetical passenger plane, please read this carefully.

Joshua 24And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.

25And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones....

So, honestly and directly and without snot-munching. Believe in God, love Him with all your heart and do what He tells you through His priests (righteous men like Joshua). Then you and your household will prosper. If not, you and your children will suffer.
Because God doesn't discrminate on the grounds of age and gender.

26And they raised over him [Achan] a great heap of stones unto this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of His anger.

is4fun
28-05-2010, 15:05
NEVER


Exactly Len, Never was, never will be... :)

Russian Lad
28-05-2010, 15:13
So, honestly and directly and without snot-munching. Believe in God, love Him with all your heart and do what He tells you through His priests (righteous men like Joshua). Then you and your household will prosper. If not, you and your children will suffer.

Thank you, I would rather suffer:).

Listen, the fact that I am an agnostic does not mean I did not read your stuff:)
What do you say to those:

Math. 5, 11-12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

2Tim.3-12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

P.S. Unless you have noticed, I usually beat my opponents with their weapons. Looks like you are next. Do answer my question above and drop that mentoring attitude. I am sure God would not approve it:).

is4fun
28-05-2010, 15:17
Pretty cool last few posts even if the topic is a big fat fantasy, however, I would like to propose a major change in English prose. Are there any English teachers in the forum today?

We need an English lesson as to why these words need to be capitalized. Religious fanatics need not apply.

When communicating with others about a belief of a higher entity one needs not to capitalize the fanticiful entity. i.e. god, buddha, mohamed. Case in point; What if I had one of these entities as an object of my sentence, would I need to capitalize it also? Why?

Russian Lad
28-05-2010, 15:22
When communicating with others about a belief of a higher entity one needs not to capitalize the fanticiful entity. i.e. god, buddha, mohamed. Case in point; What if I had one of these entities as an object of my sentence, would I need to capitalize it also? Why?

I would say the same reason applies to capitalizing "Communist Party" or peoples' names - showing more respect or even veneration to an animate being of human or even superhuman nature, in some cases:).

yakspeare
28-05-2010, 15:30
absolutely there are medical records of it. As i said the Ambulance staff all became believers. someone did say that had the helocopter been called, there would of automatically been a media turn out, but they didn't think to call them from on-site...which in hindsight would of perhaps been beneficial. We were somewhat in the middle of nowhere, hence why it took 4 hours for the ambulance to come from Nambour.

what i DON'T know is WHEN i went from broken James to healed James....in the ambulance? in the hospital? Certainly in the creek i was all smashed up. Thus i think the medical records could be quite conflicting between ambulance and doctors...but i just don't know.

shurale
28-05-2010, 15:39
Russian Lad, I will try to answer your question today, but before I do....
What do you feel when you have to pay [state] taxes?


Thank you, I would rather suffer:).

Listen, the fact that I am an agnostic does not mean I did not read your stuff:)
What do you say to those:

Math. 5, 11-12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

2Tim.3-12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

P.S. Unless you have noticed, I usually beat my opponents with their weapons. Looks like you are next. Do answer my question above and drop that mentoring attitude. I am sure God would not approve it:).

is4fun
28-05-2010, 15:41
absolutely there are medical records of it. As i said the Ambulance staff all became believers. someone did say that had the helocopter been called, there would of automatically been a media turn out, but they didn't think to call them from on-site...which in hindsight would of perhaps been beneficial. We were somewhat in the middle of nowhere, hence why it took 4 hours for the ambulance to come from Nambour.

what i DON'T know is WHEN i went from broken James to healed James....in the ambulance? in the hospital? Certainly in the creek i was all smashed up. Thus i think the medical records could be quite conflicting between ambulance and doctors...but i just don't know.

Being in the state of mind you were at the time could you not discount that extraterrestrials were behind your fortune?

Russian Lad
28-05-2010, 15:44
Shurale, I don't pay any taxes. Officially I am unemployed and I intend to stay that way:). I don't even have a shadow on a sunny day:). Just kidding, the last one.


what i DON'T know is WHEN i went from broken James to healed James....in the ambulance? in the hospital? Certainly in the creek i was all smashed up. Thus i think the medical records could be quite conflicting between ambulance and doctors...but i just don't know.

Guess it would be good for your own self to obtain those records somehow. But if you say many doctors can witness it it is really a miracle, not necessarily in the Bible sense, though. Our life is a mistery indeed - on a round ball in the middle of infinite universe. Never ceases to amaze me, that fact.

shurale
28-05-2010, 16:50
If I was in Russia (as a citizen or an expat) and I had to pay taxes over there, it could make me extremely angry to learn that there is a mite who lives off my tax money.

But having read I the godly words of the Scriptures

Math. 5, 11-12
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

2Tim.3-12
Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

And I find comfort and praise the Lord who lets me feel what the prophets felt before me.
They persecuted the prophets before me, and now I am being persecuted by an officially unemployed heathen (who sucks me like a mite would).



Shurale, I don't pay any taxes. Officially I am unemployed and I intend to stay that way:). I don't even have a shadow on a sunny day:). Just kidding, the last one.



Guess it would be good for your own self to obtain those records somehow. But if you say many doctors can witness it it is really a miracle, not necessarily in the Bible sense, though. Our life is a mistery indeed - on a round ball in the middle of infinite universe. Never ceases to amaze me, that fact.

len
28-05-2010, 17:24
Exactly Len, Never was, never will be... :)

I will NEVER believe that there is no God. Stop contradicting my words.:nono:

len
28-05-2010, 17:34
They persecuted the prophets before me, and now I am being persecuted by an officially unemployed heathen (who sucks me like a mite would).

The Bible contains more than 300 verses on the poor, social justice, and God's deep concern for both.

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.

Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Prov. 31:8ff. [Commandment to kings.] Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.

Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

The message here is really very simple: help the needy. It's not hard to understand; it's just hard to do.

shurale
28-05-2010, 21:30
Len, please tell me what your gender is? Male, female, undecided?
Is Len short for Helen?

yakspeare
28-05-2010, 21:43
Shurale, I don't pay any taxes. Officially I am unemployed and I intend to stay that way:). I don't even have a shadow on a sunny day:). Just kidding, the last one.



Guess it would be good for your own self to obtain those records somehow. But if you say many doctors can witness it it is really a miracle, not necessarily in the Bible sense, though. Our life is a mistery indeed - on a round ball in the middle of infinite universe. Never ceases to amaze me, that fact.


It probably would. I wouldn't be sure how to get them but if i was in oz , under freedom of information etc, I probably would. i will say one of the ambulance officers was a a rather large and chesty woman, who carefully positioned my head so i was using her chest and a wonderful fluffy pillow...now that is bedside manner.

thing is when you speak about God etc and "proof" you have to consider what standard of proof is actually required. beyond a reasonable doubt? like criminal trials or balance of probabilities like a civil trial? what level of proof do we (or God) need to show to convince an atheist? Does God need to lower himself just so that we would believe in him? they are valid questions and of course subjective to which person they are asked of.

is4fun
29-05-2010, 00:21
I will NEVER believe that there is no God. Stop contradicting my words.:nono:

Tell me why these people died.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

shurale
29-05-2010, 15:37
Len, consider these verses.

1 Kings 9:21

21Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.

2 Chronicles 8:8
that is, their descendants remaining in the land, whom the Israelites had not destroyed—these Solomon conscripted for his slave labor force, as it is to this day.
=====================================


The Bible contains more than 300 verses on the poor, social justice, and God's deep concern for both.

Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.

Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Prov. 31:8ff. [Commandment to kings.] Open your mouth for the dumb, for the rights of all the unfortunate. Open your mouth, judge righteously, and defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.

Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Luke 12:33. "Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves purses which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near, nor moth destroys."

Luke 3:11. And [John the Baptist] would answer and say to them, "Let the man with two tunics share with him who has none, and let him who has food do likewise."

Mt. 5:42. Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

The message here is really very simple: help the needy. It's not hard to understand; it's just hard to do.

shurale
29-05-2010, 17:09
Straight to the point. If Russian Lad or is4fun lived in a Godly state, they would be either killed or sent to a labour camp. Consider these verses.

Joshua 9

3And when the inhabitants of Gibeon heard what Joshua had done unto Jericho and to Ai,

4They did work wilily, and went and made as if they had been ambassadors, and took old sacks upon their asses, and wine bottles, old, and rent, and bound up;

5And old shoes and clouted upon their feet, and old garments upon them; and all the bread of their provision was dry and mouldy.

6And they went to Joshua unto the camp at Gilgal, and said unto him, and to the men of Israel, We be come from a far country: now therefore make ye a league with us.

7And the men of Israel said unto the Hivites, Peradventure ye dwell among us; and how shall we make a league with you?

8And they said unto Joshua, We are thy servants. And Joshua said unto them, Who are ye? and from whence come ye?

9And they said unto him, From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the LORD thy God: for we have heard the fame of him, and all that he did in Egypt,

10And all that he did to the two kings of the Amorites, that were beyond Jordan, to Sihon king of Heshbon, and to Og king of Bashan, which was at Ashtaroth.

11Wherefore our elders and all the inhabitants of our country spake to us, saying, Take victuals with you for the journey, and go to meet them, and say unto them, We are your servants: therefore now make ye a league with us.

12This our bread we took hot for our provision out of our houses on the day we came forth to go unto you; but now, behold, it is dry, and it is mouldy:

13And these bottles of wine, which we filled, were new; and, behold, they be rent: and these our garments and our shoes are become old by reason of the very long journey.

14And the men took of their victuals, and asked not counsel at the mouth of the LORD.

15And Joshua made peace with them, and made a league with them, to let them live: and the princes of the congregation sware unto them.

16And it came to pass at the end of three days after they had made a league with them, that they heard that they were their neighbours, and that they dwelt among them.

17And the children of Israel journeyed, and came unto their cities on the third day. Now their cities were Gibeon, and Chephirah, and Beeroth, and Kirjathjearim.

18And the children of Israel smote them not, because the princes of the congregation had sworn unto them by the LORD God of Israel. And all the congregation murmured against the princes.

19But all the princes said unto all the congregation, We have sworn unto them by the LORD God of Israel: now therefore we may not touch them.

20This we will do to them; we will even let them live, lest wrath be upon us, because of the oath which we sware unto them.

21And the princes said unto them, Let them live; but let them be hewers of wood and drawers of water unto all the congregation; as the princes had promised them.

22And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?

23Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.

24And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing.

25And now, behold, we are in thine hand: as it seemeth good and right unto thee to do unto us, do.

26And so did he unto them, and delivered them out of the hand of the children of Israel, that they slew them not.

27And Joshua made them that day hewers of wood and drawers of water for the congregation, and for the altar of the LORD, even unto this day, in the place which he should choose.

Russian Lad
29-05-2010, 22:23
And I find comfort and praise the Lord who lets me feel what the prophets felt before me.
They persecuted the prophets before me, and now I am being persecuted by an officially unemployed heathen (who sucks me like a mite would).

You are a demagogue, most Christians are.
How am I sucking you, I am not getting any welfare money or anything.
You would prefer me to be employed by a foreign company for the measly 1 thousand dollars per month (pretty standard salary here in SPb) so that they could suck MY blood for pennies and so that I could pay taxes and pray to your moth-eaten God? Screw that.
Otherwise I don't mind getting employed and paying taxes.

yakspeare
29-05-2010, 22:28
Shurale your entire belief system is at odds to Christianity and is very Judeo-islamic in nature.

You have completely misunderstood the bible in a massive way if you are even being serious about your postings(i have my doubts).

Everything you discuss is quite perfect for the Jewish religion of old, or sharia law in Islam.

It has NOTHING to do with Christianity so for those he is targeting, don't take him as a representative of what we believe at all.

Russian Lad
29-05-2010, 22:43
It has NOTHING to do with Christianity so for those he is targeting, don't take him as a representative of what we believe at all.


Well, he is not exactly in line with the mainstream protestant tradition, that's for sure, but other than that any Orthodox Christian, for example, might fully agree with him and with those who share his views on this thread. I know what you mean, though.


They persecuted the prophets before me, and now I am being persecuted by an officially unemployed heathen (who sucks me like a mite would).

The Bible contains more than 300 verses on the poor, social justice, and God's deep concern for both.

Deep concern and helping true believers stand quite aside from each other. In the verses that I quoted the Bible clearly says that the true believers will be persecuted. I guess "persecuted" does not mean some indirect form, it is a rather straightforward verb. Why deny what is written in your own Book you live by?

yakspeare
29-05-2010, 22:58
any Orthodox believer who thinks people should be stoned today etc and that we must follow the 613 commandments of the Old testament, does so out of ignorance of what they believe. quite simply if you follow all the laws of the old testament then the sacrifice of christ was not even needed. It makes one Jewish in belief and not christian(doesn't make you Jewish in practical terms as this requires steps through a rabbi to convert to be official).

yakspeare
29-05-2010, 23:03
i will say that our system of government, particularly the westminister system, IS based on the old Testament and it is a basis for much of our laws and sense of justice. "eye for an eye" is quite a normal belief system and served humanity for thousands of years. it is not the only system out there and for those who are christians we ought live by grace and not the law ie the motives for our actions and not the actions themselves are the key ingredient of today's christian life, but the law can only ever measure outside actions and reward and punish on those.

Russian Lad
30-05-2010, 00:38
any Orthodox believer who thinks people should be stoned today etc and that we must follow the 613 commandments of the Old testament, does so out of ignorance of what they believe. quite simply if you follow all the laws of the old testament then the sacrifice of christ was not even needed. It makes one Jewish in belief and not christian(doesn't make you Jewish in practical terms as this requires steps through a rabbi to convert to be official).

I would say that he is just more open than others. Being a Christian does not make anyone a better man. According to some studies, the number of crimes committed by Christians and non-believers is pretty much comparable.
It all depends on the person, ultimately.

shurale
30-05-2010, 02:02
It looks like you suffer of insomnia.
Or just came from a pub and before going to bed decided to check the thread.
Anyway, the old, mosaic law was meant to be temporary... Why isn't it written in the Exodus, Levit, Deut that the mosaic law(s) will be replaced by something else? Why didn't God tell Moses that Ten Commandments have limited time of effect?

Russian Lad
30-05-2010, 09:13
It looks like you suffer of insomnia.
Or just came from a pub and before going to bed decided to check the thread.
Anyway, the old, mosaic law was meant to be temporary... Why isn't it written in the Exodus, Levit, Deut that the mosaic law(s) will be replaced by something else? Why didn't God tell Moses that Ten Commandments have limited time of effect?

Ask God, not us.
Let it not bother you when I choose to visit this site and when I go to sleep.
You know, you may ignore other people's questions and continue your Judaist rant single-handedly, but I doubt it takes us anywhere discussion-wise. But you do help me understand the Palestinians better, you know. And feel a growing support for their cause.

yakspeare
30-05-2010, 09:31
It looks like you suffer of insomnia.
Or just came from a pub and before going to bed decided to check the thread.
Anyway, the old, mosaic law was meant to be temporary... Why isn't it written in the Exodus, Levit, Deut that the mosaic law(s) will be replaced by something else? Why didn't God tell Moses that Ten Commandments have limited time of effect?

by all means follow the mosaic laws to the letter and without exception and see a Rabbi(he will turn you away three times as is the rule), study the Talmud, get circumcised and become a Jew-if that is what you want. They don't preach their message to others, you have to actually chase them to become one. if it is an orthodox Rabbi who does it then you even get the right to live in Israel afterwards.

You misunderstand one verse in the New testament, and ignore Paul's repeated rebuking of those who try to follow the old law and that we are free from it now. Apart from seventh day adventists-how many christians follow the rules of the sabbath on a saturday? we don't because we don't have to anymore.

Bogatyr
30-05-2010, 14:08
Will heretics go to heaven?

No one here can answer that question. Orthodox (Christians) in particular do not claim to be permanently saved. Salvation can be accepted or rejected, because we all have free will. Salvation is not a light switch to be flipped on or off. Repentance is not a moment of contrition but a lifetime of turning towards God.

is4fun
30-05-2010, 19:30
Straight to the point. If Russian Lad or is4fun lived in a Godly state, they would be either killed or sent to a labour camp. Consider these verses.

Joshua 9

3And when the inhabitants of Gibeon heard what Joshua had done unto Jericho and to Ai,

4They did work wilily, and went and made as if they had been ambassadors, and took old sacks upon their asses, and wine bottles, old, and rent, and bound up;

5And old shoes and clouted upon their feet, and old garments upon them; and all the bread of their provision was dry and mouldy.

6And they went to Joshua unto the camp at Gilgal, and said unto him, and to the men of Israel, We be come from a far country: now therefore make ye a league with us.

7And the men of Israel said unto the Hivites, Peradventure ye dwell among us; and how shall we make a league with you?

8And they said unto Joshua, We are thy servants. And Joshua said unto them, Who are ye? and from whence come ye?

9And they said unto him, From a very far country thy servants are come because of the name of the LORD thy God: for we have heard the fame of him, and all that he did in Egypt,

10And all that he did to the two kings of the Amorites, that were beyond Jordan, to Sihon king of Heshbon, and to Og king of Bashan, which was at Ashtaroth.

11Wherefore our elders and all the inhabitants of our country spake to us, saying, Take victuals with you for the journey, and go to meet them, and say unto them, We are your servants: therefore now make ye a league with us.

12This our bread we took hot for our provision out of our houses on the day we came forth to go unto you; but now, behold, it is dry, and it is mouldy:

13And these bottles of wine, which we filled, were new; and, behold, they be rent: and these our garments and our shoes are become old by reason of the very long journey.

14And the men took of their victuals, and asked not counsel at the mouth of the LORD.

15And Joshua made peace with them, and made a league with them, to let them live: and the princes of the congregation sware unto them.

16And it came to pass at the end of three days after they had made a league with them, that they heard that they were their neighbours, and that they dwelt among them.

17And the children of Israel journeyed, and came unto their cities on the third day. Now their cities were Gibeon, and Chephirah, and Beeroth, and Kirjathjearim.

18And the children of Israel smote them not, because the princes of the congregation had sworn unto them by the LORD God of Israel. And all the congregation murmured against the princes.

19But all the princes said unto all the congregation, We have sworn unto them by the LORD God of Israel: now therefore we may not touch them.

20This we will do to them; we will even let them live, lest wrath be upon us, because of the oath which we sware unto them.

21And the princes said unto them, Let them live; but let them be hewers of wood and drawers of water unto all the congregation; as the princes had promised them.

22And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?

23Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.

24And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing.

25And now, behold, we are in thine hand: as it seemeth good and right unto thee to do unto us, do.

26And so did he unto them, and delivered them out of the hand of the children of Israel, that they slew them not.

27And Joshua made them that day hewers of wood and drawers of water for the congregation, and for the altar of the LORD, even unto this day, in the place which he should choose.

You do take this all literally don't you...! LOL How many hours a day do you actually spend reading this? Is this a preoccupation in your daily life where your wife and children must obey your interpretation of these words? Come on man, get it together... These words are no more than stories written in a time where no other explanation of events would suffice. Even current evangelical posters such as Rudmeister's have moved on to other interpretations based on the fantasies of fantasist such as Lewis and others. My goodness, this thread is getting all the more interesting and even more stranger to people who happen to be grounded. LOL

is4fun
30-05-2010, 19:40
No one here can answer that question. Orthodox (Christians) in particular do not claim to be permanently saved. Salvation can be accepted or rejected, because we all have free will. Salvation is not a light switch to be flipped on or off. Repentance is not a moment of contrition but a lifetime of turning towards God.


"No one here can answer that question."
First of all, many a MAN can! There is and never was a god. Simple. :) Contrition?; a lifetime of turning towards god? Man, you guys gotta get it together.

shurale
31-05-2010, 00:56
"No one here can answer that question."
First of all, many a MAN can! There is and never was a god. Simple. :) Contrition?; a lifetime of turning towards god? Man, you guys gotta get it together.

is4fun,

I strongly suggest you change your attitude or God will make you eat your children.
Deuteronomy 28:53

And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee.

then the fun will be over.

SV1973a
31-05-2010, 08:44
is4fun,

I strongly suggest you change your attitude or God will make you eat your children.
Deuteronomy 28:53

And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee.

then the fun will be over.


People all over the world have believed in, and still believe in, 1000s of gods. I don`t, and I suppose that you do not either. So you are practically an atheist, except for the fact that I believe in one god less then you.

By the way, I see you placed a nice little bible text to clearly demonstrates that your god truely is the god of love...

len
31-05-2010, 10:38
is4fun,

I strongly suggest you change your attitude or God will make you eat your children.
Deuteronomy 28:53



LOL as funny as it may sound God will not make him eat his children. First of all that was a prophesy to the Isrelites that came to pass and not to be used literally. you seem to be more of an OT guy. why dont you move a little to the NT maybe your insight will change.

len
31-05-2010, 12:25
Apart from seventh day adventists-how many christians follow the rules of the sabbath on a saturday?

we don't because we don't have to anymore.

please, explain yourself.

yakspeare
31-05-2010, 13:14
the jewish sabbath had strict rules like not carrying anything in your pocket, gathering sticks or doing any work etc...it was(and is) on a saturday.

Christian religions(except one mainly although there are a few seventh day baptists too) do not follow this because we are no longer required to. the day of worship is usually a Sunday due to the day of ressurection etc but really it could be any day. there is no punishment for working on this day, it really isn't the sabbath. it is an example of another old testament rule we no longer follow.

len
31-05-2010, 16:42
the jewish sabbath had strict rules like not carrying anything in your pocket, gathering sticks or doing any work etc...it was(and is) on a saturday.

Christian religions(except one mainly although there are a few seventh day baptists too) do not follow this because we are no longer required to. the day of worship is usually a Sunday due to the day of ressurection etc but really it could be any day. there is no punishment for working on this day, it really isn't the sabbath. it is an example of another old testament rule we no longer follow.

remember the sabbath and keep it holy......and it goes on. that is one of the ten commandments. when you say "IT IS AN EXAMPLE OF ANOTHER OT RULE WE NO LONGER FOLLOW" i beg to ask, do you not follow the whole ten commandments or i understood you wrong.

yakspeare
31-05-2010, 17:43
yes you have understood correct. the sabbath starts on friday night until saturday evening. it is NOT followed by christendom.

we have freedom according to the new testament but we should not abuse that freedom but have the holy spirit as our guides on our hearts. christianity is about thoughts behind the deeds, whereas the old testament is only about the deeds themselves. ie if you think about murder you have sinned, in the old testament if you think about it it is not sin, just if you do it.

so we don't follow the ten commandments exactly as the jewish faith makes no distinction between these and the other 613 laws. we also can eat what we like and don't have to follow kosher nor be circumcised.

i encourage you to read Paul's letters to understand for yourself.

is4fun
31-05-2010, 17:57
is4fun,

I strongly suggest you change your attitude or God will make you eat your children.
Deuteronomy 28:53

And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee.

then the fun will be over.

As I mentioned earlier. "...those who are grounded..." I wish I could just snap my fingers and then you awake from your deep psychosis. One day maybe... :)

len
31-05-2010, 17:59
yes you have understood correct. the sabbath starts on friday night until saturday evening. it is NOT followed by christendom.

we have freedom according to the new testament but we should not abuse that freedom but have the holy spirit as our guides on our hearts. christianity is about thoughts behind the deeds, whereas the old testament is only about the deeds themselves. ie if you think about murder you have sinned, in the old testament if you think about it it is not sin, just if you do it.

so we don't follow the ten commandments exactly as the jewish faith makes no distinction between these and the other 613 laws. we also can eat what we like and don't have to follow kosher nor be circumcised.

i encourage you to read Paul's letters to understand for yourself.

i have read all pauls letters. yet, this is a discussion i will have to agree to disagree with you.

len
31-05-2010, 18:03
As I mentioned earlier. "...those who are grounded..." I wish I could just snap my fingers and then you awake from your deep psychosis. One day maybe... :)

some say they are christians, others ethists, othordox,budhists,jews,homos,lesbians
i applaude to them because they have
something they believe in.

what do you have?

is4fun
31-05-2010, 19:07
some say they are christians, others ethists, othordox,budhists,jews,homos,lesbians
i applaude to them because they have
something they believe in.

what do you have?

Common sense.

SV1973a
31-05-2010, 19:49
Common sense.

Brilliant reply !

Russian Lad
31-05-2010, 20:20
Common sense.

Brilliant reply !


Indeed so.
By the way, I feel sympathy for quite many Christians because most of them didn't even have a choice in life - they have been brainwashed with it from their early childhood. I am sure most of the posters on this thread have been. It is just like asking a North Korean who grew up in the family of communists to believe in capitalism. Close to impossible. Hence they prefer to live in this make-believe world of fairytales. Some of them, like Yakspeare, can be rather reasonable people in everyday matters, they just grew up with it.

yakspeare
31-05-2010, 21:35
well i can't really say i grew up with it, certainly my mother was a devout christian but my father was a devout and militant atheist. i rejected the church when i was about 12 and went on a journey trying every religion and ideology(including marxism) along the way.

Russian Lad
31-05-2010, 22:32
i rejected the church when i was about 12 and went on a journey trying every religion and ideology(including marxism) along the way.

Well, see, you REJECTED religion at the age of 12, I did not know it even EXISTED till like the age of 14 (I am not sure what I found about first - about sex or about religion), hence I could make an independent choice about religion. And it is not just the family, the community is also important. In some US states like Alabama, the so-called Bible belt, almost everyone is religious. Children don't have much of a choice but to follow suit, similar to that proverbial North Korean kid.
Marxism is coming back, I think - production is getting more and more automated, less and less workers are required to operate the machines for the benefit of the owners, so the class clash and a large-scale war seem to be inevitable. The number of redundant citizens is high even in the relatively prosperous America. What is it, the number of Americans living off the welfare? I heard about 40 million people*. In other countries the situation is either the same or even worse, quite in line with Marx's predictions. I think we are on the brink of WW-III. Give it a decade, plus-minus five years. Unless nothing is changed in the inherently wrong system, that is.
*This article is one year old, but I guess it shows the trend quite explicitly:
http://www.thetrumpet.com/?q=6292.4734.0.0

shurale
31-05-2010, 23:08
People all over the world have believed in, and still believe in, 1000s of gods. I don`t, and I suppose that you do not either. So you are practically an atheist, except for the fact that I believe in one god less then you.

By the way, I see you placed a nice little bible text to clearly demonstrates that your god truely is the god of love...

God (who is yours though you reject Him) is truly God of Love.
But Love can be tough. Really tough. Painfully, excruciatingly tough.

The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:30

See?

SV1973a
01-06-2010, 07:43
God (who is yours though you reject Him) is truly God of Love.
But Love can be tough. Really tough. Painfully, excruciatingly tough.

This is all cr*p and you should know that. I am a father myself, and I love my children irregardless of the fact whether they love me or not. Even should they reject me, I will still love them.
Your god of love seems not to be able to do so?



The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. Proverbs 20:30

See?

Ehh, no...

yakspeare
01-06-2010, 09:40
er have you not heard of the prodigal son? the whole concept of God's love is the most famous verse in the bible for christians, John 3:16

For God so loved the world he gave his only son, so that whoever shall believe in him will not die but have eternal life.

He isn't asking much, just acknowledgement of what has occurred and despite all you have done in against him and his laws, the slate is wiped clean. pretty simple really.

SV1973a
01-06-2010, 09:55
Are you sure you are talking about the same god ?
The one that cast out Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden, because they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, the one that drawned all people on earth, that murdered Egyptian children and encouraged the Jews to do the same, that incited the Jews to mass rape and killing of men and boys of the conquered tribes,...
This god has too many crimes to be called the god of love.
I know this is the Old Testament god, but what caused him to suddenly change his mind in the New Testament ???

yakspeare
01-06-2010, 11:04
he didn't change his mind. we did bad...he can't change his nature...being bad has its consequences ...as creation we have him the finger and went our own way....that requires punishment...but there was a promise from the beginning and he had to have a sacrifice and chose to sacrifice his son so that we could once have a direct relation with him...we are made Holy by the son, without being Holy we cannot have a relationship with a Holy Creator.

SV1973a
01-06-2010, 11:50
that requires punishment...

When do you suppose the punishment will be over ? Do new born babies need to punished as well ? What could they possibly have done wrong ?


he had to have a sacrifice...

What the hell did he need a sacrifice for ?


chose to sacrifice his son

Do you consider this to be a gesture of love ?


It is very simple with your all-powerfull all-loving god.
There exists evil in this world, if your god lets this exist it can be because he can not help it (then he is not all-powerful) or because he wants it to be that way (then he is not all-loving).
The easier explanation is just that there is no god.

yakspeare
01-06-2010, 11:55
rather than debate it with me, read the book and actually find out for yourself because it is quite clear you have no idea what we believe. There will come a time when your philosophical logic of no God will look quite foolish, but it will be too late then.

SV1973a
01-06-2010, 12:06
rather than debate it with me, read the book and actually find out for yourself because it is quite clear you have no idea what we believe. There will come a time when your philosophical logic of no God will look quite foolish, but it will be too late then.

It may surprise you, but I have read the book. We had religous education (catholic) at school. They started the indoctrination at age 3, when I went to Kindergarten. By the age of 6 I did my `first communion`, we had daily religous education. By the age of 12 I did the `holy communion`. Further on school we continued with religion for 2 hours per week.
I have read plenty of your stories, and remember very well from my childhood that this god caused horrible things to people. It is just a monster.
Now, I am a grown up and have learned to see the stories in the bible for what they really are : fairy tales!!!

On my turn, I would advice you to use common sense to deduct the logic in religion. Really ask the question; `can this really have happened ?`
I came up with the conclusion that it is all rubish, and I am pretty sure that most people with a thorough scientific education will agree.
Funny thing; last year a study was published at the Catholic University of Leuven, and it turned out that 90% of professors in the scienctific department did NOT believe in god.
That is the true enlightenment for mankind.

Russian Lad
01-06-2010, 12:14
There will come a time when your philosophical logic of no God will look quite foolish, but it will be too late then.

Too late for what?
What will you do in Heaven, if it exists and you get there? Hell sounds a much more exciting place to be in, frankly, I think if I believed in Jesus I would be a serial killer just to make sure I get there. Guess if I stay an agnostic it will be better for all of us...

yakspeare
01-06-2010, 12:17
funny thing is that between 40 and 60% of scientists believe in a God. In Natural sciences the stats are a bit higher as well as in astrophysics. There has been numerous studies(some i have published already on the forum) to this affect.

Your dream of a religious free Utopia is a long way to even being realized.

It really doesn't matter whether you think they are fairy tales or not, i am a believer in absolute truth and if,for a second, i thought my religion was wrong i would ditch it in an instant " Drink and be merry for tomorrow we die"

In some ways i would LOVE there to be no God...then i would go on a hedonistic binge the like you have never seen! but God isn't a convenient belief, he is fact. We don't have to prove it now, nor i need to preach it to you on here, we will be vindicated in the end. we play for keeps.

yakspeare
01-06-2010, 12:20
Too late for what?
What will you do in Heaven, if it exists and you get there? Hell sounds a much more exciting place to be in, frankly, I think if I believed in Jesus I would be a serial killer just to make sure I get there. Guess if I stay an agnostic it will be better for all of us...

Hell is always looking for a new ruler...the last management really hasn't performed to expectations....i might talk to some people and see what i can do RL...

Russian Lad
01-06-2010, 12:29
funny thing is that between 40 and 60% of scientists believe in a God. In Natural sciences the stats are a bit higher as well as in astrophysics. There has been numerous studies(some i have published already on the forum) to this affect.

Sure, thing, I believe that the world we live in has supernatural powers that we haven't even begun to understand. But it is a quantum leap from here to believing in a book of ancient tales and in a man who died and rose from his grave to somehow save me. I think the world is far more complicated.
And believing that if you follow the rules of the Bible you will get some rewards for it is really just selfish human nature, in my view.

yakspeare
01-06-2010, 12:41
perhaps it is a quantum leap to some, but i think the LOGICAL conclusion is that there is a God or higher being. Choosing to believe in a personal God and specifically the Christian God certainly requires something more and that when faith comes in for most people. That is why i say it requires just as much faith to be an Atheist as it does to believe in a personal God. Science favours a "something" as a creator whether it is a force, a particle or whatever that is not of this known world(not matter or energy as we know it).

Bogatyr
01-06-2010, 13:48
the jewish sabbath had strict rules like not carrying anything in your pocket, gathering sticks or doing any work etc...it was(and is) on a saturday.

Christian religions(except one mainly although there are a few seventh day baptists too) do not follow this because we are no longer required to. the day of worship is usually a Sunday due to the day of ressurection etc but really it could be any day. there is no punishment for working on this day, it really isn't the sabbath. it is an example of another old testament rule we no longer follow.

The way my (Russian Orthodox) priest explained (very brief, executive summary) the OT to me: the Old Testament was provided for the Jews in a way that they could understand it based on their culture. The Law of God is not, though, meant to be a legal document with micromanaged punishments for "breaking the law." The Law of God is a description of how to *be*, to *exist*, to *live*, so that the person is healthy in a spiritual sense. The Jews though saw the law as something in its own right, its own end, rather than a description of how to "be." Jesus chastised the Pharisees many times for sticking to the law for its own sake instead of using it as a guideline of how to be spiritally healthy and good people. He gave the example of the donkey stuck in the hole on a Saturday, and He also chastised the Pharisees for criticizing Him for resurrecting ("working!") on a Saturday.

len
01-06-2010, 14:07
The way my (Russian Orthodox) priest explained (very brief, executive summary) the OT to me: the Old Testament was provided for the Jews in a way that they could understand it based on their culture. The Law of God is not, though, meant to be a legal document with micromanaged punishments for "breaking the law." The Law of God is a description of how to *be*, to *exist*, to *live*, so that the person is healthy in a spiritual sense. The Jews though saw the law as something in its own right, its own end, rather than a description of how to "be." Jesus chastised the Pharisees many times for sticking to the law for its own sake instead of using it as a guideline of how to be spiritally healthy and good people. He gave the example of the donkey stuck in the hole on a Saturday, and He also chastised the Pharisees for criticizing Him for resurrecting ("working!") on a Saturday.


Brilliant. :applause:Where have you been in this discussion.

Bogatyr
01-06-2010, 14:19
When do you suppose the punishment will be over ? Do new born babies need to punished as well ? What could they possibly have done wrong ?



What the hell did he need a sacrifice for ?



Do you consider this to be a gesture of love ?


It is very simple with your all-powerfull all-loving god.
There exists evil in this world, if your god lets this exist it can be because he can not help it (then he is not all-powerful) or because he wants it to be that way (then he is not all-loving).
The easier explanation is just that there is no god.

I've seen this atheist sound bite many times. Another, easier, explanation is that you (collectively) don't understand (or choose not to accept) the Christian notion of what "all-powerful" and "all-loving" mean in the context of the fallen world. Orthodox Christians in fact believe that most of what God is is inscrutable to us, we can only know what He has revealed to us.

Evil exists as a choice of free beings turning away from God. God cannot wipe away evil without wiping away free will -- He's giving each evil person a chance to change before the end. Note that change takes time, it is not an instantaneous decision, but a process of living and "being" the right way. See the parable of the wheat and the reapers for another explanation of this. There will be a time when the wheat is separated from the chaff, it's just not yet. To make any claims that God "can't" or "doesn't want" to ignores that God does have a plan that He has communicated it to us.

That you don't like his plan or don't understand it (I'm not claiming I do, by the way!) is NOT proof that He does not exist!

No ones knows exactly what judgement will be like. The way my priest explained it to me is that judgement is largely self-made. Unless a person has made themselves to "be" the right kind of way, he simply cannot exist with God.

Note that Christians do not believe that the state of the fallen world is permanent. There is a time when the pain and suffering of the fallen world will end. Another way that the Orthodox explain death, suffering, etc. is that "God tolerates death (and pain and suffering) so that Evil will not become eternal" -- that things have to happen the way they are happening so that Satan and his demons will be removed to the place prepared for them in the end.

Russian Lad
01-06-2010, 14:29
Another way that the Orthodox explain death, suffering, etc. is that "God tolerates death (and pain and suffering) so that Evil will not become eternal" -- that things have to happen the way they are happening so that Satan and his demons will be removed to the place prepared for them in the end.

You guys need a doctor. And a good one.

len
01-06-2010, 15:18
You guys need a doctor. And a good one.

if i need a doctor....i aint picking yours.

SV1973a
01-06-2010, 15:22
That you don't like his plan or don't understand it (I'm not claiming I do, by the way!) is NOT proof that He does not exist!

It is your claim that he DOES exist, so you should prove that.

shurale
01-06-2010, 17:01
You guys need a doctor. And a good one.

We don't need doctors. We have church elders. Thus we are able to save lots of money. (Doctors are outrageously expesinve nowadays, btw.) You see, another benefit of being a Christian.
James 5:14
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

15And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

I don't know a Christian who has to visit a doctor.

shurale
01-06-2010, 17:20
SV1973,

Deuteronomy 5
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

did you miss that during your religious education or did you forget it?



When do you suppose the punishment will be over ? Do new born babies need to punished as well ? What could they possibly have done wrong ?

sic

shurale
01-06-2010, 17:24
well i can't really say i grew up with it, certainly my mother was a devout christian but my father was a devout and militant atheist. i rejected the church when i was about 12 and went on a journey trying every religion and ideology(including marxism) along the way.

Do you belong to the true church?

Russian Lad
01-06-2010, 19:01
I don't know a Christian who has to visit a doctor.

You confirm that, Yakspeare?:)

You see, even among you, Christians, there is continuous strife, jealousy and misunderstandings. Just shows that your religion is a cheap fake that has nothing to do with reality, which is great, infinite and careless of humans and tape worms alike. I have a hunch it is careless about whole galaxies.

SV1973a
01-06-2010, 19:15
SV1973,

Deuteronomy 5
for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

did you miss that during your religious education or did you forget it?

No I did not. Again, great proof of love !

SV1973a
01-06-2010, 19:20
You confirm that, Yakspeare?:)

You see, even among you, Christians, there is continuous strife, jealousy and misunderstandings. Just shows that your religion is a cheap fake that has nothing to do with reality, which is great, infinite and careless of humans and tape worms alike. I have a hunch it is careless about whole galaxies.

That`s it. Complete and utter indifference towards suffering and pain, good and evil, ...
We humans can use our mind to distinguish between good and evil.
I do not need guidelines from an imaginary friend (?) to help me with that.
I can not understand that in 2010 grown ups can still believe in fairytales.

Bogatyr
01-06-2010, 19:35
It is your claim that he DOES exist, so you should prove that.

Believers have posted numerous links to resources for you to read up on in these forums. Check most of the posts from rusmeister, they are very informative. But most people in fact have already made up their minds, and are just here to belittle and make argument rather than engage in a serious attempt to understand.

Bogatyr
01-06-2010, 19:37
You confirm that, Yakspeare?:)

You see, even among you, Christians, there is continuous strife, jealousy and misunderstandings. Just shows that your religion is a cheap fake that has nothing to do with reality, which is great, infinite and careless of humans and tape worms alike. I have a hunch it is careless about whole galaxies.

All it proves is that we live in a fallen world, and that we humans in our fallen state are imperfect and fallible. There are many areas in which strife, jealousy and misunderstandings occur, science for example. Are all scientists cheap fakes then?

Russian Lad
01-06-2010, 19:47
There are many areas in which strife, jealousy and misunderstandings occur, science for example. Are all scientists cheap fakes then?

You believers like to compare yourself to scientists, right? Why not compare yourself to mental asylum patients? It would fit the case much better.
Anyway, I don't see any strife in chemical formulas, for example - they are rather exact and H2O is H2O - one cannot interpret it in hundreds of ways.
There are over a billion people who believe in Buddha, for example. You claim your religion is better than theirs, they surely think Christians don't understand something. And in the end it all just boils down to the fear of death and to the desire to be something special in this life and maybe be rewarded for it. All rather primitive.

Bogatyr
01-06-2010, 19:56
That`s it. Complete and utter indifference towards suffering and pain, good and evil, ...
We humans can use our mind to distinguish between good and evil.
I do not need guidelines from an imaginary friend (?) to help me with that.
I can not understand that in 2010 grown ups can still believe in fairytales.

I do not know which church or faith you're thinking of (all of them?), but Orthodox Christianity is quite concerned with pain and suffering, good and evil. The main mission of the (Orthodox) Church is spiritual healing, in fact. The Church has over 2000 years of writing of the Holy Fathers who have contemplated and written explanations for many of these phenomena. That you haven't taken the time to read them or that you don't believe them doesn't make them less true. And of course neither does my declaration make them true, but I happen to believe that they are true, based on my readings of them and my experience in life and in the Church. You are free to make your own choice and appeal to your own authorities and live your life your own way.

C.S.Lewis has some very interesting writing about shared notions of good and evil, and how universal the are, rusmeister posted some links a while back, look them up. ("Mere Christianity" is the name of the work).

What *I* don't understand is how limited some people's vision is, materialists in particular, who won't believe in anything unless they can see it feel it or touch it (either directly or through instruments which are just an extension of the senses).

nbogaard
01-06-2010, 20:01
Do you belong to the true church?

Don't most religions claim that their church is the "true" church?

Russian Lad
01-06-2010, 20:05
What *I* don't understand is how limited some people's vision is, materialists in particular, who won't believe in anything unless they can see it feel it or touch it (either directly or through instruments which are just an extension of the senses).


You, like 99.99% of Chirstians, are just not listening, preferring to boil in your own sauce. I, for example, have repeatedly said that there should be a higer force that there is out there, only Christianity is a weak and rather outdated attempt to fathom it.

Bogatyr
01-06-2010, 20:14
Don't most religions claim that their church is the "true" church?

I believe they do. Orthodoxy, though, is unique in having clear and convincing historical and philosophical complete continuity from today all the way back to Jesus and the Apostles. So for the case of Christianity to me it's quite clear which is the "true" Church. For non-Christianity, I simply believe they're (in various degrees) wrong (not aligned with the Truth) about the nature of the universe and mans' existence on earth.

Anyway, the tone here is rather typical for this board and many like it, sneering know-it-all closed-minded non-believers heaping their contempt and anger against those who do believe. It's pretty sad, actually.

It is rather amusing about the comparison to mental asylum patients, though. To those not in the Church, Church members do really seem insane, I agree (and the other way around, I might add).

To those who don't believe, why do you spend so much time in this particular area of the forums? I think that's something worth reflecting over, and not to just give a knee-jerk flippant reaction.

Russian Lad
01-06-2010, 20:17
To those who don't believe, why do you spend so much time in this particular area of the forums? I think that's something worth reflecting over, and not to just give a knee-jerk flippant reaction.


Because it is fun - talking to nut cases for free and without risking getting bitten by them:).



I believe they do. Orthodoxy, though, is unique in having clear and convincing historical and philosophical complete continuity from today all the way back to Jesus and the Apostles. So for the case of Christianity to me it's quite clear which is the "true" Church. For non-Christianity, I simply believe they're (in various degrees) wrong (not aligned with the Truth) about the nature of the universe and mans' existence on earth.

You see how special you are:)

Bogatyr
01-06-2010, 20:20
You, like 99.99% of Chirstians, are just not listening, preferring to boil in your own sauce. I, for example, have repeatedly said that there should be a higer force that there is out there, only Christianity is a weak and rather outdated attempt to fathom it.

You're a step ahead of most materialists, then. Since you're located in Russia I hope you do have your eyes opened further, there are many resources available to you here, should you choose to avail yourself of them.

There are mountains and mountains of resources that show you're quite incorrect about the "weak" claim, and the "outdated" claim is ridiculous. The Truth can never be outdated. You can claim it is not the truth, but "outdated" simply doesn't enter in to the discussion.

Best of luck!

shurale
01-06-2010, 20:21
All it proves is that we live in a fallen world, and that we humans in our fallen state are imperfect and fallible. There are many areas in which strife, jealousy and misunderstandings occur, science for example. Are all scientists cheap fakes then?

Jealousy is good. God is jealous.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

nbogaard
01-06-2010, 20:31
It seems to me, and I neither claim nor offer proof, but it seems to me that we have an awful lot of religions claiming that theirs is the path to God to the exclusion of most if not all others.

Let's say there is only one true church and that all others are mistaken to some degree. It seems to me that if God is good, that it is unlikely that God would condemn to hellfire and damnation all kinds of believers who believe in God but were taught their beliefs from a very young age by people who were slightly mistaken but for the most part got it right.

Does it make sense to (the collective) you that God cares less about how you behave, how you treat others, what you give back to the world and, in short, what you do with your life and how you conduct it than God cares about which house of worship, if any, you chose to attend on whatever day your Sabbath is. I just find it so difficult to believe in a petty God. I would rather believe in a God that is truly good and truly believes in mankind's ability to try harder to be better.

My personal; belief is that Mother Teresa, even if she didn't belong to the one "true" church, in fact, even if she was an atheist, is going to heaven or whatever it is that God puts good people. She made a positive difference in the world. On the other hand, I cannot believe that God sends believers to that same place regardless of how their choices in life affect other people. I have to believe that pedophiles don't get in, regardless of how much they repent. They irreparably destroyed not just other people's lives but children's lives. There is no forgiveness for that in my mind.

Russian Lad
01-06-2010, 20:46
I have to believe that pedophiles don't get in, regardless of how much they repent. They irreparably destroyed not just other people's lives but children's lives. There is no forgiveness for that in my mind.

Oh, dear. You must be young and tenda:).
Do you know why the Orthodox church, the church going are extremely popular among Russian hard-core criminals who kill for a living?

shurale
01-06-2010, 21:16
Oh, dear. You must be young and tenda:).
Do you know why the Orthodox church, the church going are extremely popular among Russian hard-core criminals who kill for a living?

Why?

nbogaard
01-06-2010, 21:30
Oh, dear. You must be young and tenda:).
Do you know why the Orthodox church, the church going are extremely popular among Russian hard-core criminals who kill for a living?

I am neither young nor tender. My belief system says that while it may be comfortable for those who destroy the lives of others to believe that with a few penances and the blessing of a priest, they are absolved of guilt, I believe that there is little, if any, chance of God's forgiveness.

yakspeare
01-06-2010, 23:06
Russian Lad,

God is the Father of both Medicine and healing also. We do live in a sick world and believers do get sick...Paul was so afflicted and indeed embraced it. It is a difficult area to discuss and the fact is our bodies, though destined for perfection are not at this time and live in a fallen world which lacks in nutrients and various other things.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I have shared you one true story of something in my life but it was not the only one. I cannot fathom why i have had so many experiences when some believers seemingly have none but one of the things I think is not a wishy belief in it but a deep seated conviction.

I am hardly a perfect Christian but i have witnessed a lot and seen the true value of prayer and laying on of hands. My old boss at Century 21 had nerve damage to her face and her only comfort(which was instant) was me to touch her face(she wasn't a believer but became one). I went pentecostal, charismatic at 17ish and if you read the bible it is EXTREMELY clear that the gifts and miracles ought be happening well after the death of Christ. Unfortunately people try to manufacture these and i have witnessed mass hysteria and delusion in congregations and one of the reasons i left the churches was the lack of this REAL power.

Russian Lad you are far closer to the truth than even you realize. It should annoy you, make you angry, amuse you or whatever that such an impotent God is believed in. That people blindly follow organized religion and not seek truth for themselves. You need that moral outrage that the church is a corrupt and imperfect instrument because it was that same outrage that had a young Catholic nailed a notice on a church about what was wrong. Often an outsider can see more than those on the inside.

The fact is, if God exists, his overwhelming power should be flooding through his believers(the Holy Ghost) manifest in their actions and as they spread the gospel signs and wonders ought follow. Keep telling us what we are doing wrong and it might motivate the truly wonderful to happen.

Many are called but few are chosen. Challenge everything you know about religion every day and you will find the truth.

shurale
02-06-2010, 00:10
That is all good but do you belong to the true church?


Russian Lad,

God is the Father of both Medicine and healing also. We do live in a sick world and believers do get sick...Paul was so afflicted and indeed embraced it. It is a difficult area to discuss and the fact is our bodies, though destined for perfection are not at this time and live in a fallen world which lacks in nutrients and various other things.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I have shared you one true story of something in my life but it was not the only one. I cannot fathom why i have had so many experiences when some believers seemingly have none but one of the things I think is not a wishy belief in it but a deep seated conviction.

I am hardly a perfect Christian but i have witnessed a lot and seen the true value of prayer and laying on of hands. My old boss at Century 21 had nerve damage to her face and her only comfort(which was instant) was me to touch her face(she wasn't a believer but became one). I went pentecostal, charismatic at 17ish and if you read the bible it is EXTREMELY clear that the gifts and miracles ought be happening well after the death of Christ. Unfortunately people try to manufacture these and i have witnessed mass hysteria and delusion in congregations and one of the reasons i left the churches was the lack of this REAL power.

Russian Lad you are far closer to the truth than even you realize. It should annoy you, make you angry, amuse you or whatever that such an impotent God is believed in. That people blindly follow organized religion and not seek truth for themselves. You need that moral outrage that the church is a corrupt and imperfect instrument because it was that same outrage that had a young Catholic nailed a notice on a church about what was wrong. Often an outsider can see more than those on the inside.

The fact is, if God exists, his overwhelming power should be flooding through his believers(the Holy Ghost) manifest in their actions and as they spread the gospel signs and wonders ought follow. Keep telling us what we are doing wrong and it might motivate the truly wonderful to happen.

Many are called but few are chosen. Challenge everything you know about religion every day and you will find the truth.

Bogatyr
02-06-2010, 00:15
It seems to me, and I neither claim nor offer proof, but it seems to me that we have an awful lot of religions claiming that theirs is the path to God to the exclusion of most if not all others.

Let's say there is only one true church and that all others are mistaken to some degree. It seems to me that if God is good, that it is unlikely that God would condemn to hellfire and damnation all kinds of believers who believe in God but were taught their beliefs from a very young age by people who were slightly mistaken but for the most part got it right.

I don't recall the exact source, but it mentioned that judgement will go according to "how much light" the person received (how much Truth they were exposed to). This means that those attending the Church and directly exposed to the Truth will be held to a higher standard than those who went through life without hearing or being directly exposed to it.



Does it make sense to (the collective) you that God cares less about how you behave, how you treat others, what you give back to the world and, in short, what you do with your life and how you conduct it than God cares about which house of worship, if any, you chose to attend on whatever day your Sabbath is. I just find it so difficult to believe in a petty God. I would rather believe in a God that is truly good and truly believes in mankind's ability to try harder to be better.

People who are outside of the Church and its teachings make so many mistakes and assumptions about what the Church actually is all about. Certainly all the wrong impressions given by those who don't really know better can lead others astray and to hold such opinions. But there are resources that can help set you straight on the real position of the Church, just look them up. If you studied and attended Orthodoxy and met and spoke with priests I believe you'd find your personal inclinations quite well aligned with Orthodox dogma.

Orthodox Christianity is all about the way you "be." It just so happens that the liturgies, confession, the services, fasting, all *help you to align yourself with the Truth*, in other words, to "be" the right way. It is absolutely possible (in my mind) to "be" the right way without attending services. It's just much less likely. (Also note that in Orthodoxy, the "Church" is something quite specific, it doesn't mean a building built with bricks where people happen to gather, it means literally the Body of Christ. So, while it is possible I suppose to "be in the Church (the Body of Christ)" without "going to Church (the building)", again it is less likely. One could of course invent new quantum mechanical theories without ever going to University, but it's much more likely that those trained by the experts who came before them will actually understand correctly).



My personal; belief is that Mother Teresa, even if she didn't belong to the one "true" church, in fact, even if she was an atheist, is going to heaven or whatever it is that God puts good people. She made a positive difference in the world. On the other hand, I cannot believe that God sends believers to that same place regardless of how their choices in life affect other people. I have to believe that pedophiles don't get in, regardless of how much they repent. They irreparably destroyed not just other people's lives but children's lives. There is no forgiveness for that in my mind.

As I wrote earlier, nobody knows or can know about that the results of judgement will be. St. Mary of Egypt was a prostitute, who knows how many lives she destroyed through allowing customers to indulge with her (and yes I understand the difference, consenting adults, etc.), but then again she lived in the desert alone in constant prayer for decades. Jesus does say about those who corrupt children: "it would have been better for them never to have been born" (because of the punishment they will receive).

Forgiveness for unspeakable acts is hard for us to comprehend. But forgiveness will not be granted to those who do not forgive. Note that forgiveness is quite different from "being held accountable" in terms of earthly punishments.

yakspeare
02-06-2010, 00:38
Bogatyr,

your posts are refreshing and Len listen to what Bogatyr says...that is why we don't "follow the ten commandments" etc....infact it is what is written on our hearts, not eternal rules , that are important...really as a christian you are held to an even higher standard...under Jewish law "thou shalt not kill" but God looks at your heart and if you THINK you want to kill, then you have sinned as a christian.

The ten commandments were also about a system of government, and indeed are the basis of the modern westminister system among others of justice(our laws stem from this).

Bogatyr i recognise the church as the body of Christ of all believers and not a particular denomination or faith such as Catholicism or Orthodoxy. They may well be the historical remnants of the early church but a great deal of the teachings I see no evidence of in the church in the 1st Century or Bible and come at least 2-300 hundred years later. I am still researching it though.

shurale
02-06-2010, 00:43
O.K. my dog is impatient, i.e. needs walking.

Just read this and think if your source doesn't contradict the bible.

1For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.



I don't recall the exact source, but it mentioned that judgement will go according to "how much light" the person received (how much Truth they were exposed to). This means that those attending the Church and directly exposed to the Truth will be held to a higher standard than those who went through life without hearing or being directly exposed to it.



People who are outside of the Church and its teachings make so many mistakes and assumptions about what the Church actually is all about. Certainly all the wrong impressions given by those who don't really know better can lead others astray and to hold such opinions. But there are resources that can help set you straight on the real position of the Church, just look them up. If you studied and attended Orthodoxy and met and spoke with priests I believe you'd find your personal inclinations quite well aligned with Orthodox dogma.

Orthodox Christianity is all about the way you "be." It just so happens that the liturgies, confession, the services, fasting, all *help you to align yourself with the Truth*, in other words, to "be" the right way. It is absolutely possible (in my mind) to "be" the right way without attending services. It's just much less likely. (Also note that in Orthodoxy, the "Church" is something quite specific, it doesn't mean a building built with bricks where people happen to gather, it means literally the Body of Christ. So, while it is possible I suppose to "be in the Church (the Body of Christ)" without "going to Church (the building)", again it is less likely. One could of course invent new quantum mechanical theories without ever going to University, but it's much more likely that those trained by the experts who came before them will actually understand correctly).



As I wrote earlier, nobody knows or can know about that the results of judgement will be. St. Mary of Egypt was a prostitute, who knows how many lives she destroyed through allowing customers to indulge with her (and yes I understand the difference, consenting adults, etc.), but then again she lived in the desert alone in constant prayer for decades. Jesus does say about those who corrupt children: "it would have been better for them never to have been born" (because of the punishment they will receive).

Forgiveness for unspeakable acts is hard for us to comprehend. But forgiveness will not be granted to those who do not forgive. Note that forgiveness is quite different from "being held accountable" in terms of earthly punishments.

Bogatyr
02-06-2010, 01:16
O.K. my dog is impatient, i.e. needs walking.

Just read this and think if your source doesn't contradict the bible.

I believe it does not. This parable says that those who are saved shouldn't complain that they are "more saved" or "more worthy" than those who *they* think are worse than them. They're judging where it's not their place to judge. It's similar to the non-prodigal son complaining about the grand party the father threw for the prodigal son, and the father telling him, "hey, you were with me all along, be glad."

is4fun
02-06-2010, 01:32
Bogatyr
shurale
yakspeare

First of all, the tactics utilized by Christians and any other faith to reinforce their brethren faith lies directly to a book written, rewritten, written again, edited and interpreted by the many who have had the time to read such drivel. I’ve read the post thus far and found the usual suspects rely on the other to better his/her argument on who has read and accurately interpreted passages to the reassurance of the other based on their independent reasoning and comfort from a book which is clearly a big fat fiction- who can quote more from this work of deception is even funnier, even more so when it is contextually misunderstood as it is just a fairytale not unlike Alice in Wonderland. One says that more scientists believe in a creator without any sources. I would be inclined to think that these statistics were derived from this fictitious work. After all, it is the source of reality in which such people exist. Another makes reference to another party that participates in these discussions and directs his arguments to a fantasist who follows another’s interpretation on this one book. In fact Lewis wrote his own books!-Even funnier. I think people like myself (which are grounded) are really starting to worry about the mental health that is exhibited in many of these postings from those who really believe in a creator that is all intelligent, all powerful and without wrong. Just believing in a creator is a major step but as an intelligent, powerful perfect entity? Get a fix on reality fellas! If I started to believe in the mad hatter, vampires or werewolves I too would exhibit a psychosis that would provoke a negative response from those who did not believe in the same and I would desperately try to gain the assurances from those who were as weak mined as myself to support my understanding. I always question myself why such people, in a different time and place, didn’t start to read the koran, practiced buddhism or the myriad of other falsities that plague the development of a free world? I am sure if the posters on this site had originally started to read the koran their fate would have been much more perilous.

There are many non-believers on this site and in reality I feel there are more than actual believers. Atheism or even better, anti-theism, is not a religion like some of the religious like to profess. This excuse is just an insecurity or disbelief that one is actually unable to believe in an entity that happens to be their imaginary security blanket. These weaknesses are understandable as many tend to prefer to live in a world outside of reality. Had not one dreamt of being a football star or a famous actor? Of course they did; we all did. The problem with this whole religion thing is these people still do believe they can relive a dream that was instilled at an earlier time or where duped by others as aforementioned.

Quoting any book created for the masses to enjoy and provide some moral support for all to live in peace is a great read indeed and an encouragement for others and myself, however, for those who take the fairies, magicians and sorcerers literally, please live in peace without having to lobby other weak and desperate minded people into your realms. This sickness is very contagious to those who are susceptible to the common rigors of life, which is why any grounded individual would place reality as defined by their natural senses place their Dungeons and Dragons game aside and start to live life like all were meant to do so.

Flora
02-06-2010, 01:36
Can I jump in the deep end here and say - argument solves nothing.
God has always been and will always be and our finite minds can never encompass all the knowledge of the world or it's Creator.
We should not judge and decide what God should do or should have done, that's like having the audacity to insist to the president what toothpaste he should be using.
What we all need to come to terms with is the fact that we really do need salvation and turn to God and ask forgiveness of our sins and live a new life of faith and holiness through Jesus Christ.
It's really simple.
Besides man can create whatever he wants. God did direct us to multiply. The problem is that not everything that is created is good. Like BOMBS for instance - talking about the aggressive us of.

is4fun
02-06-2010, 01:44
Can I jump in the deep end here and say - argument solves nothing.
God has always been and will always be and our finite minds can never encompass all the knowledge of the world or it's Creator.
We should not judge and decide what God should do or should have done, that's like having the audacity to insist to the president what toothpaste he should be using.
What we all need to come to terms with is the fact that we really do need salvation and turn to God and ask forgiveness of our sins and live a new life of faith and holiness through Jesus Christ.
It's really simple.
Besides man can create whatever he wants. God did direct us to multiply. The problem is that not everything that is created is good. Like BOMBS for instance - talking about the aggressive us of.

Flora,

You have not read a single thing in this thread.

There is no creator! There never has been. Haven't you been reading?

MickeyTong
02-06-2010, 02:01
http://i39.tinypic.com/14sh54l.jpg

yakspeare
02-06-2010, 02:05
is4fun...i posted in another thread to RL about the number of scientists who believe in God...it isn't hard to google it but there has been LOTS and LOTS of studies and surveys and they all come out the same...about 50% believe in a God and 50% do not on average. I also posted about the leader of the human genome project who broke the DNA code and that he was also a Christian and came so as a scientist first. I don't suffer mental illness and i have an impressive IQ so the belittling about people who believe in God as being people who are unstable, needy or weak is quite a lame argument.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/03/collins.commentary/index.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24669748//

http://www.livescience.com/strangenews/050811_scientists_god.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2003/sep/04/science.research

I don't challenge the intelligence of Atheists so it ought be a two way street...as you can see by the links that is very easy to back my argument that a great many scientists and other learned people believe in God. Google is your friend if you want to find out more....there is plenty on it.

is4fun
02-06-2010, 02:26
http://i39.tinypic.com/14sh54l.jpg

The quote meant nothing without the graphics. I'm still laughing out loud. :)

Jack17
02-06-2010, 11:13
You guys need a doctor. And a good one.
You know RL, my personal belief is that we are all just the fleeting thoughts of some great mind. If you look at photos from the Hubble Telescope of the far reaches of the Universe, it looks very similar to me like a map of the human brain: billions of nodes connected by chemical-electrical synapses. I think we are only able to see a very, very miniscule portion of what actually exists. I think Franz Kafka intuitively described our life most accurately - "I am a memory come alive!" We are all tiny electrons that exist for a brief moment, then die from the memory of the mind who thought us. Just think, maybe there are electrons in our brains right now that are staring at the far reaches of our frontal lobes thinking what a mysterious universe it is. Anyway, I think my religion is far superior to your belief that we were put here by extraterrestrials from another solar system. My theology is based on string theory which posits there are an infinite number of universes; on what is your religion based? RL, the more I think about your crazy ideas, the more I feel like issuing a Fatwa against you!

Russian Lad
02-06-2010, 13:43
You know RL, my personal belief is that we are all just the fleeting thoughts of some great mind. If you look at photos from the Hubble Telescope of the far reaches of the Universe, it looks very similar to me like a map of the human brain: billions of nodes connected by chemical-electrical synapses. I think we are only able to see a very, very miniscule portion of what actually exists. I think Franz Kafka intuitively described our life most accurately - "I am a memory come alive!" We are all tiny electrons that exist for a brief moment, then die from the memory of the mind who thought us. Just think, maybe there are electrons in our brains right now that are staring at the far reaches of our frontal lobes thinking what a mysterious universe it is. Anyway, I think my religion is far superior to your belief that we were put here by extraterrestrials from another solar system. My theology is based on string theory which posits there are an infinite number of universes; on what is your religion based?

Well, I agree with everything you said here, but why suddenly try to explain it all with a book of ancient fairytales? Does not make sense to me.
As to the aliens, well, just yesterday I saw two big lights close to each other that looked like stars and were just hanging in the sky, for like 2 hours. I could not explain that. I think chances are pretty high that aliens do exist, given the infinite expanse of the universe.


What we all need to come to terms with is the fact that we really do need salvation and turn to God and ask forgiveness of our sins and live a new life of faith and holiness through Jesus Christ.

Why not through a Blue Flying Saucer, for instance? Or through Mysterious Twin Orbs of Light? I saw the latter just yesterday, after all...

shurale
02-06-2010, 14:09
I am definitely not insane, because the bible tells me so!

Acts 26:24
At this point Festus interrupted Paul's defense. "You are out of your mind, Paul!" he shouted. "Your great learning is driving you insane."

Acts 26:25
"I am not insane, most excellent Festus," Paul replied. "What I am saying is true and reasonable.



Bogatyr
shurale
yakspeare

sic

I think people like myself (which are grounded) are really starting to worry about the mental health that is exhibited in many of these postings from those who really believe in a creator that is all intelligent, all powerful and without wrong.

Russian Lad
02-06-2010, 14:19
I am definitely not insane, because the bible tells me so!

All alcoholics, for example, claim they are not alcoholics because the empty bottle tells them so. And no mentally ill patient will admit his illness. Actually, if he does so, it will mean he has made the first step towards healing. What's your point?

shurale
02-06-2010, 14:52
" It just so happens that the liturgies, confession, the services, fasting, all *help you to align yourself with the Truth*, in other words, to "be" the right way. It is absolutely possible (in my mind) to "be" the right way without attending services. It's just much less likely. "

Bogatyr,

what do you think of what Luke wrote?

Luke 23

One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

I wonder if Ted Bundy makes it Heaven and then he will find out that his victims are in Hell, what will he think?

len
02-06-2010, 15:36
Bogatyr,

your posts are refreshing and Len listen to what Bogatyr says...that is why we don't "follow the ten commandments" etc....infact it is what is written on our hearts, not eternal rules , that are important...really as a christian you are held to an even higher standard...under Jewish law "thou shalt not kill" but God looks at your heart and if you THINK you want to kill, then you have sinned as a christian.

The ten commandments were also about a system of government, and indeed are the basis of the modern westminister system among others of justice(our laws stem from this).

Bogatyr i recognise the church as the body of Christ of all believers and not a particular denomination or faith such as Catholicism or Orthodoxy. They may well be the historical remnants of the early church but a great deal of the teachings I see no evidence of in the church in the 1st Century or Bible and come at least 2-300 hundred years later. I am still researching it though.


yes yakspeare, Bogatyr posts are indeed refreshing. judgement which ofcourse i know will have many surprises,where even motives will looked on and yes christians are held to a higher standard but i am still not dropping my guard on the ten commandments. they are like a mirror that shows when one has Erred.

len
02-06-2010, 15:50
Originally Posted by SV1973a View Post
It is your claim that he DOES exist, so you should prove that.

An atheist professor was teaching a college class when he told the class that he was going to prove that there is no God.

He said, "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you 15 minutes!" Ten minutes went by.

He kept taunting God, saying, "Here I am, God. I'm still waiting."

He got down to the last couple of minutes when a Marine, just released after a year of combat duty in Iraq, and newly registered in the cl**** walked up to the professor, hit him full force in the face, and sent him flying from his platform.

The professor struggled up, obviously shaken and yelled, "What's the matter with you? Why did you do that?"

The Marine replied, "God's a little busy watching over my buddies in Iraq; He sent me with His reply!!!!"

SV1973a
02-06-2010, 15:55
Originally Posted by SV1973a View Post
It is your claim that he DOES exist, so you should prove that.

An atheist professor was teaching a college class when he told the class that he was going to prove that there is no God.

He said, "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you 15 minutes!" Ten minutes went by.

He kept taunting God, saying, "Here I am, God. I'm still waiting."

He got down to the last couple of minutes when a Marine, just released after a year of combat duty in Iraq, and newly registered in the cl**** walked up to the professor, hit him full force in the face, and sent him flying from his platform.

The professor struggled up, obviously shaken and yelled, "What's the matter with you? Why did you do that?"

The Marine replied, "God's a little busy watching over my buddies in Iraq; He sent me with His reply!!!!"

OK, I give up. That seems like water tight proof to me.

len
02-06-2010, 16:13
There are two different kinds of revelation, natural revelation, which we find in the world, and special revelation, which we find in the word of God. A basic rule of Biblical interpretation is that we should always interpret natural revelation through the grid of special revelation, that is the word of God. We don't look at the world and then say this is truth, therefore we must conform the Scriptures to what we see. This view is a deadly mistake and would lead to atheism. I interpret science through the lens of the word of God, which presupposes the truth of Genesis 1-3. There is no evidence of higher value or authority than the word of God. Gene Cook

Some people complain because God puts thorns on roses, while others praise God for putting roses among thorns. Author Unknown

A heathen philosopher once asked a Christian, 'Where is God'? The Christian answered, 'Let me first ask you, Where is He not?' Aaron Arrowsmith

A silly idea is current that good people do not know what temptation means. This is an obvious lie. Only those who try to resist temptation know how strong it is... A man who gives in to temptation after five minutes simply does not know what it would have been like an hour later. That is why bad people, in one sense, know very little about badness. They have lived a sheltered life by always giving in. C. S. Lewis


AND MY FAVOURITE OF THEM ALL

Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. Heywood Broun

Russian Lad
02-06-2010, 16:15
Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God. Heywood Broun

I would say it is an awkward oxymoron. I studied at a Bible college, and they would not even fart without mentioning God's name. Verbatim.

shurale
02-06-2010, 17:35
I wonder if Chikatilo makes it to Heaven and will look down at the sinners wringing like worms in hellish flames, what will he say? Perhaps,
"Those who hate the LORD would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever."
Psalm 81:15

Russian Lad
02-06-2010, 17:50
I wonder if Chikatilo makes it to Heaven and will look down at the sinners wringing like worms in hellish flames, what will he say? Perhaps,
"Those who hate the LORD would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever."
Psalm 81:15

Well, if your God takes to heaven people like Chikatilo I would rather park my balls in hell, no problem.
By the way, I don't hate your Lord, just like I don't hate Santa or Alice. How can I have any feelings towards someone whose existence I seriously doubt? Again, lack of logic on your part.

shurale
02-06-2010, 17:55
Thank you Len,

Proverbs 21:11
When a mocker is punished, the simple gain wisdom; when a wise man is instructed, he gets knowledge


Originally Posted by SV1973a View Post
It is your claim that he DOES exist, so you should prove that.

An atheist professor was teaching a college class when he told the class that he was going to prove that there is no God.

He said, "God, if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you 15 minutes!" Ten minutes went by.

He kept taunting God, saying, "Here I am, God. I'm still waiting."

He got down to the last couple of minutes when a Marine, just released after a year of combat duty in Iraq, and newly registered in the cl**** walked up to the professor, hit him full force in the face, and sent him flying from his platform.

The professor struggled up, obviously shaken and yelled, "What's the matter with you? Why did you do that?"

The Marine replied, "God's a little busy watching over my buddies in Iraq; He sent me with His reply!!!!"

Jack17
02-06-2010, 19:16
Well, I agree with everything you said here, but why suddenly try to explain it all with a book of ancient fairytales? Does not make sense to me.
As to the aliens, well, just yesterday I saw two big lights close to each other that looked like stars and were just hanging in the sky, for like 2 hours. I could not explain that. I think chances are pretty high that aliens do exist, given the infinite expanse of the universe.



Why not through a Blue Flying Saucer, for instance? Or through Mysterious Twin Orbs of Light? I saw the latter just yesterday, after all...
RL, I was being facetious.

rusmeister
02-06-2010, 21:16
Bogatyr,

your posts are refreshing and Len listen to what Bogatyr says...that is why we don't "follow the ten commandments" etc....infact it is what is written on our hearts, not eternal rules , that are important...really as a christian you are held to an even higher standard...under Jewish law "thou shalt not kill" but God looks at your heart and if you THINK you want to kill, then you have sinned as a christian.

The ten commandments were also about a system of government, and indeed are the basis of the modern westminister system among others of justice(our laws stem from this).

Bogatyr i recognise the church as the body of Christ of all believers and not a particular denomination or faith such as Catholicism or Orthodoxy. They may well be the historical remnants of the early church but a great deal of the teachings I see no evidence of in the church in the 1st Century or Bible and come at least 2-300 hundred years later. I am still researching it though.

Hi yakspeare!
(Being as arguing with you is probably a little like the kind of fun Chesterton and Shaw had arguing with each other - it's a wonder how far a little courtesy will go...)

Did you take a look at Ware's "History of the Orthodox Church"? I'm sure I posted the link here somewhere. here it is again:

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/history_timothy_ware_1.htm

(It's just that you say 'you see no evidence', and I'm wondering what you've considered.)

A bunch of responses I'd like to make to those capable of taking them in. 2ndWind is still patiently waiting as well. I am still too slammed right now. Bogatyr is right though - you non-believers sure have strange ideas about what we believe.

Bogatyr
02-06-2010, 21:17
yes yakspeare, Bogatyr posts are indeed refreshing. judgement which ofcourse i know will have many surprises,where even motives will looked on and yes christians are held to a higher standard but i am still not dropping my guard on the ten commandments. they are like a mirror that shows when one has Erred.

I never said we shouldn't live by the ten commandments. I was making the point that the commandments are not the ultimate end in themselves. Orthodox Christianity is not about legal rules and punishment for breaking the rules -- it's about healing the sickness of the soul. Following the commandments leads to a healthy spiritual life and aligning oneself with God, and breaking them leads to spiritual sickness and falling away from God.

yakspeare
02-06-2010, 21:35
well you can't pick and choose which ten commandments you follow...you cant do 9.5 lol

The ten commandments are God's standard and them and more we are supposed to follow as are his rules for our race on this planet and in keeping with his will. The thing is we can't follow them and all the 613 commandments that go along with them as we are imperfect sinful creatures. thus Christ was used as the literal scapegoat for our sins . A promise was made too that the Holy Spirit would be in the believers and would help guide them. This doesn't mean people are an island and should go without felllowship of other believers etc and guidance from their peers.

"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:36-40).

613 commandments narrowed down to basically two.

You have to remember Jesus attacked the Pharisee when they accused him of "breaking the Sabbath" by healing and doing work on it.

Now if you do TRULY follow the Ten Commandments be sure to abide by all of this:

http://www.teshuvah.com/articles/shabbat/sabbath1.htm

If you don't , then you break one commandment every week of your existence. You either follow the rules or you don't.

Bogatyr
02-06-2010, 21:43
" It just so happens that the liturgies, confession, the services, fasting, all *help you to align yourself with the Truth*, in other words, to "be" the right way. It is absolutely possible (in my mind) to "be" the right way without attending services. It's just much less likely. "

Bogatyr,

what do you think of what Luke wrote?

Luke 23

One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

I wonder if Ted Bundy makes it Heaven and then he will find out that his victims are in Hell, what will he think?

I really dislike the "game" of predicting judgement ("so-and-so is certainly going to hell"). I consider it a foul sort of gossip. How can I know? The parables mentioned before in this thread teach not to be jealous of others's salvation -- "wow, if Joe Blotz got in to heaven with all of his sins, maybe I could have done more bad stuff in my life and gotten away with it, too" is a bad sort of thought, and a thought not compatible with one who would be in heaven.

I find it unlikely that Ted Bundy led the sort of life that would align his soul to be compatible with God and able to exist with Him in Heaven. I believe it probably depends on how much of his evil was done of his own will.

As for what Luke wrote, I'm not sure what you're looking for from me. The Lord certainly knew everything about the life and soul of the criminal to whom he assured salvation. As you can see from what was written there, the notion of "Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner" was entirely foreign to the "bad" criminals. The "good" criminal did not ask for saving his earthly life, he was honest about admitting his criminal guilt, and asked the Lord to have mercy on him, a guilty criminal.

SV1973a
02-06-2010, 21:47
Of course we have strange ideas about what you believe.
It already begins with your statement `sickness of the soul`.
I do not have a soul! Neither do you! You may believe you have a soul, and you are probably going to deny what I said, but that does not change one bit about reality. I wish I had a soul, but I don`t. Period.
I am just an animal that happens to be able to think and be aware of my existence. I exist now, I did not exist before I was born, and I will not exist after my death. The atoms I am composed of will be used to create other things, living and dead. But of the person that I am, nothing will remain.
A pity, but that is just the way it is.

There is also no such thing as a `sin`. There is also no `god` nor `gods`.

Your belief system (and much of your life) is based on such concepts like `soul`, `god`, `sin`, ... that all have no meaning for me.

When I have strange thoughts about things that believers believe in, that is just because they believe in strange concepts. The basics of your ideas are not right, so it does not really matter how you fill in the details... That does not make it any `righter`.

Bogatyr
02-06-2010, 21:51
You have to remember Jesus attacked the Pharisee when they accused him of "breaking the Sabbath" by healing and doing work on it.


Yes this is the point I was making earlier. They "couldn't see the forest for the trees." They saw the Law as its own end instead of using the Law as a method of teaching how to "be."

Bogatyr
02-06-2010, 22:06
Of course we have strange ideas about what you believe.
It already begins with your statement `sickness of the soul`.
I do not have a soul! Neither do you! You may believe you have a soul, and you are probably going to deny what I said, but that does not change one bit about reality.

Reality according to whom? What is the basis of your philosophy? What leads you reasonably and rationally to this conclusion? I'd be really interested in hearing a serious response.

SV1973a
02-06-2010, 22:19
Reality according to whom? What is the basis of your philosophy? What leads you reasonably and rationally to this conclusion? I'd be really interested in hearing a serious response.

About not having a soul ?
Almost 20 years ago, I had an operation under complete narcosis.
This was a shocking experience. They gave me the drugs to fall a sleep. The operation went on for a couple of hours. Then I woke up.
The shocking thing was: it was just like I was a machine that could be switched on and off. At the moment the injected the drugs, I was shut off. The moment I came back to `life`, I was shut on.
Although several hours had passed in between, to me there was only the shutting on and shutting off, like no time had elapsed in between.
During this operation `I` no longer existed, although my body continued with life functions. After I die it will be exactly the same, but then there will be no more life functions, and I will not be shut on again ever.
Basically, the above experience made me conclude that there is no soul, no mind,... there is only matter.

yakspeare
02-06-2010, 22:28
About not having a soul ?
Almost 20 years ago, I had an operation under complete narcosis.
This was a shocking experience. They gave me the drugs to fall a sleep. The operation went on for a couple of hours. Then I woke up.
The shocking thing was: it was just like I was a machine that could be switched on and off. At the moment the injected the drugs, I was shut off. The moment I came back to `life`, I was shut on.
Although several hours had passed in between, to me there was only the shutting on and shutting off, like no time had elapsed in between.
During this operation `I` no longer existed, although my body continued with life functions. After I die it will be exactly the same, but then there will be no more life functions, and I will not be shut on again ever.
Basically, the above experience made me conclude that there is no soul, no mind,... there is only matter.

You had an operation under narcosis or narcotic induced unconsciousness....to be frank a) you were very much still alive b) you may well have dreamed and gone through various other stages but your mind has no recollection of it...you weren't switched on and off. I have had similar as probably a lot of people have. Infact you were "dead" to your senses and yet still alive, only to be revived later to consciousness. is it not possible then that in death the same does occur? you go into a state of the oblivious only to awaken to a different reality when "brought to"?

What were you expecting? get a drug induced sleep or coma to find and see God? You might be missing a key important step...namely you were never switched off but very much alive.

Bogatyr
02-06-2010, 22:54
About not having a soul ?
Almost 20 years ago, I had an operation under complete narcosis.
This was a shocking experience. They gave me the drugs to fall a sleep. The operation went on for a couple of hours. Then I woke up.
The shocking thing was: it was just like I was a machine that could be switched on and off. At the moment the injected the drugs, I was shut off. The moment I came back to `life`, I was shut on.
Although several hours had passed in between, to me there was only the shutting on and shutting off, like no time had elapsed in between.
During this operation `I` no longer existed, although my body continued with life functions. After I die it will be exactly the same, but then there will be no more life functions, and I will not be shut on again ever.
Basically, the above experience made me conclude that there is no soul, no mind,... there is only matter.

Well, that's certainly refreshing, a serious response that can lead to a discussion, thanks for that. You are drawing conclusions from your personal life experience, which is a reasonable thing to do. I don't think your conclusions about death necessarily follow from your experience of the operation, though, since you weren't dead, but I can understand how you can extrapolate to reach that conclusion.

I wonder though if you really believe what you write about matter. Do you think there is no inherent value in your life, your family's lives or loved ones lives (how can matter "love", by the way) ? If all is just matter then there is no inherent value in any life at all, we're all just temporary towers of vibrating molecules (TTOVM). Transforming the state of one TTOVM into another state ("killing" a person) has no meaning. There is no such thing as "right" and "wrong" for vibrating molecules. Yet there is practically 100% universal agreement among humankind that killing is "wrong." That's interesting, isn't it? Don't you wonder where that comes from? I suggest googling "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis for a very interesting read along these lines.

I wonder also what you think about the voluminous accounts of "Near Death Experiences? (*)". Those too are personal experiences that all seem to points quite convincingly to existence and intellect (the "soul"?) operating separate from the body.

(*) I'm actually not sure about the Orthodox position on NDEs. I know Blessed Seraphim Rose wrote that he believes they are demonic hallucinations. I'm frankly not quite sure where I stand on this question. I tend to lean towards believing they prove the existence of the soul, demonic involvement or not.

edit: here is a link to what looks like an authentic Orthodox position on NDEs (I haven't vetted it thoroughly, though):
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/nde.aspx

SV1973a
02-06-2010, 22:59
You had an operation under narcosis or narcotic induced unconsciousness....to be frank

I don`t know what the difference is, but I would guess, it was narcotic induced unconsciousness (I was fully `asleep`).


a) you were very much still alive

`I` was not, `my body` was. A big difference.


b) you may well have dreamed and gone through various other stages but your mind has no recollection of it...

No, definitely no dreaming. For me, there was no time elapse at all, between the moment they shut me off and back on again. When you go to sleep, you wake up a couple of hours later, and you know that time has elapsed. With this operation this was totally different.


you weren't switched on and off.
I have had similar as probably a lot of people have. Infact you were "dead" to your senses and yet still alive, only to be revived later to consciousness.

Chemicals entered my brain, changed some processes that were going on, and there was no more `I`.


is it not possible then that in death the same does occur? you go into a state of the oblivious only to awaken to a different reality when "brought to"?

No, because there will be nothing to return to. The brain will be permanently shut down.


What were you expecting? get a drug induced sleep or coma to find and see God? You might be missing a key important step...namely you were never switched off but very much alive.

I wasn`t expecting anything, and I did get nothing.

yakspeare
03-06-2010, 00:03
interesting you say you were not alive but your body was?

Doesn't this then make a difference between the "I" and the body?

There are many occasions ,in even natural sleep, where there appears to be no time lapse at all. Micro-naps are common in tired drivers, they have no concept how long their eyes have been closed for-only to find a truck infront of them when they open them, even though they "think" they only blinked or maybe nor even closed their eyes at all.

You are also under the influence of various chemicals that can affect the brain chemistry which indeed can affect time. Nonetheless...it is an interesting experience and although i don't agree with your conclusions at LEAST it have you something to think about.

The bible says it best ,actually, that if Christ did not die and raise from the grave:

"Drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!" In other words if there is no God etc , life is short , play hard and do everything you want before you become worm food, long forgotten of this world.

2ndWind
03-06-2010, 01:58
Basically, the above experience made me conclude that there is no soul, no mind,... there is only matter.
Although no one asked how I happened to change from a christian to a strong atheist, I thought I would take this opportunity to tell you anyway.

While studying for the Baptist ministry, I began to question some things that I had accepted from my early years in the church. It began gradually but I soon gave up the idea of being a minister - doubts had come up. I spent the next 30 years reading, thinking, analyzing, attending different churches, etc.

Among other things, I concluded a couple of very basic things.

I could find no evidence that a supernatural being was actively involved in the day to day running of the universe. Everything simply works according to natural forces. Many forces seem mysterious until some scientist (or team of scientists) determine what is going on. There is no evidence that prayer directly affects the operation of any natural force. I found no evidence that the concepts of souls, heaven, hell, gods, devils, angels, etc. were anything more than the imaginary inventions of people who, throughout human history, have used "religion" to better themselves.

However, the most important thing that I concluded about the christian religion is that it is based on "human sacrifice" (evidence for this practice has been found in various societies in both the Old World and the New) and "cannibalism" (historically found in a number of societies).

The concept of making offerings to gods is found in many religions. The offering is often made in the form of food or an animal which could be considered food. Offering oneself in devotion, submission, and service is a form of offering. A general rule seems to be that the more valuable the offering, the more the gods will appreciate it. The very most valuable sacrifice that could be made was a child. Gods are believed to appreciate this great sacrifice because it represents strong evidence of the believer's devotion.

Christians worked out a rather complex/convoluted tale to incorporate these sacrificial concepts. There was a need for some mechanism which would make every human sinful from birth. (Thereby setting up a need for a sacrifice(s) to overcome the sin and placate the god. The Jewish bible provided such a tale in the story of Adam and Eve. (The story of Adam and Eve was probably written as 1.) a creation story, 2.) explained why people lived in such harsh circumstances, 3.) explained why women had to endure such terrible pain when giving birth, 4.) explained why snakes have no legs)

Next there was need for a sufficient sacrifice to cleanse a person of their awful "original sin". A sheep or a goat sure wouldn't be enough. Even if everyone sacrificed their firstborn child, it wouldn't be enough. According to christian time reckoning, god sat around for 4,000 years thinking on how to provide mankind a way to take care of this "original sin".

He came up with an idea! Since only the sacrifice of a child would be sufficient then he would have a child, then sacrifice that child to himself. Like any engineer, he had to work out a few problems. First the child needed to be human. Second, since he was to be the father, there could be no human father. Third, if a human female carried his child, she would transfer "original sin" to the child. God took care of this third problem by a one time "immaculate conception" of Mary. (Looks to me like god could have simplified things by simply making all future conceptions "immaculate".)


Thus we have a sinless woman, impregnated by god, and a child raised for the express purpose of being a human sacrifice. Having the sacrificial offering raised from the dead, to my mind, just adds a macabre element to the tale.

Now that god has provided a way out of "original sin" he still isn't through. In order to gain the benefits of heaven, the believer must be baptized, must hold fast to his belief that the sacrificed one was really, really the son of god and must (symbolically) "drink the blood and eat the flesh" of the sacrificed one.

Much like a reformed smoker who finds the smell of tobacco smoke offensive, I now find the bloody christian beliefs to be repugnant.

yakspeare
03-06-2010, 02:16
for someone who CLAIMS that they have researched it for 30 years and were studying to be a Minister you make massive errors in your understanding not only of christianity but also many other religions.

I wouldn't even know where to rebutt you, simply your thought processes are so left-field I can't find your logic in them.

I don't mind people believing what they like but 30 years around Christians and still get the basic precepts, origins(even anthropology and secular religious study don't assume such things as christianity coming from human sacrifice and cannibalism!) wrong is just truly amazing.

i don't wish to be condescending, it isn't my intention and i appreciate, i guess , you sharing. I have seen many reasons for Atheism but your theories are certainly very interesting.

GaNozri
03-06-2010, 02:22
I can sy one thing: if I ever lost my faith in God, I would commit suicide.

MickeyTong
03-06-2010, 03:24
There are a couple of errors in this video, but the general explanation rings true.

YouTube- Christianity is Pagan

2ndWind
03-06-2010, 04:28
(even anthropology and secular religious study don't assume such things as christianity coming from human sacrifice and cannibalism!)

Think on it. Let it sink in. The next time you take communion. (If you do.)

Think, as you drink the cup of grape juice, sip the wine, or whatever - this is the symbolic blood of a once living human being - symbolically I am a cannibal!

Think, as the wafer, saltine cracker or whatever dissolves on your tongue - this is the symbolic flesh of a once living human being - symbolically I am a cannibal!

If you look at a cross, especially if there is a human figure on it, think - a human being was sacrificed [i.e. "human sacrifice"] in a horrible ritual in order to provide a means of salvation for mankind. Salvation from an inherited sin committed by mythical ancestors.

Of course, I doubt if there ever was a historical jesus but I feel sure that the early church fathers who concocted the stories deliberately emphasized the themes of blood, flesh, pain, suffering and sacrifice which provide such powerful symbolism.


i don't wish to be condescending, Don't worry, toward me you cannot be.

2ndWind
03-06-2010, 04:32
I can sy one thing: if I ever lost my faith in God, I would commit suicide.
Religion can be a crutch. Do you really have such need of the crutch that you could not survive without it?

Bogatyr
03-06-2010, 09:32
Think on it. Let it sink in. The next time you take communion. (If you do.)

Think, as you drink the cup of grape juice, sip the wine, or whatever - this is the symbolic blood of a once living human being - symbolically I am a cannibal!

Think, as the wafer, saltine cracker or whatever dissolves on your tongue - this is the symbolic flesh of a once living human being - symbolically I am a cannibal!

If you look at a cross, especially if there is a human figure on it, think - a human being was sacrificed [i.e. "human sacrifice"] in a horrible ritual in order to provide a means of salvation for mankind. Salvation from an inherited sin committed by mythical ancestors.

Of course, I doubt if there ever was a historical jesus but I feel sure that the early church fathers who concocted the stories deliberately emphasized the themes of blood, flesh, pain, suffering and sacrifice which provide such powerful symbolism.

Don't worry, toward me you cannot be.

An excerpt from http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/DIALOGUE%20BETWEEN%20AN%20ORTHODOX%20AND%20AN%20ECUMENIST.htm


DIALOGUE BETWEEN AN ORTHODOX AND AN ECUMENIST

ON THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST

Vladimir Moss

Orthodox. My friend, I would like to ask you a question: what do you understand by the words, “We are saved by the Blood of Christ”?

Ecumenist. That we are saved by the Sacrifice of Christ Crucified, whereby He washed away our sins in His own Blood shed on the Cross.

Orthodox. I agree. And how precisely are our sins washed away?

Ecumenist. By partaking of the Holy Mysteries of the Church with true faith and love, and especially the Mystery of the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist.

Orthodox. Excellent! So you agree that in the Mystery of the Body and Blood of Christ we partake of the very same Body that was nailed to the Cross and the very same Blood that was shed from the side of the Saviour?

Ecumenist. Er, yes…

Orthodox. I see that you hesitate, my friend. Is there something wrong in what I said?

Ecumenist. Not exactly… However, you must be careful not to understand the Mystery in a cannibalistic sense.

Orthodox. “Cannibalistic”? What do you mean, my friend? What is cannibalistic here?

Ecumenist. Well, I mean that we must not understand the Body of Christ in the Eucharist to be a hunk of meat. That would be close to cannibalism - to paganism.

Orthodox. You know, the early Christians were accused of being cannibals by their enemies. However, cannibals eat dead meat. In the Mystery we do not partake of dead meat, but of living flesh, the Flesh of the God-Man. It is alive not only through Its union with His human Soul, but also through Its union with the Divine Spirit. And that makes It not only alive, but Life-giving.


You might want to contact Clark Carlton -- he's a former Baptist minister-in-training as well, who became disillusioned with the Baptists and discovered the Truth in Orthodoxy. He wrote such books as "The Way: What Every Protestant Should Know About the Orthodox Church."

http://www.reginaorthodoxpress.com/way.html

Communion is no symbol, it is the living Body and Blood of Christ.

yakspeare
03-06-2010, 10:30
interesting video Mickey but yes quite a number of errors in it. i certainly have studied other religions (the main ones being theravada Buddhism, wicca/golden dawn, Judaism and Zoroastrianism). The latter is quite fascinating in its apparent links to other religions it predates. i also did cartouche, Egyptian Tarot when i was a teen and know some of their mythology.

Buddhism as taught by Siddharta Gautama is found in the Theravada school(pure buddhism if you like) and is still practice in Sri lanka and Bhutan. The other versions of Buddhism mix in the localized religion such as Mahayana Buddhism of India, Lamaism of Tibet and Zen of Japan. Alongside this are stories of Gods etc similar to hinduism and prophecies about Buddha's life. but the original is available without all this and so we can clearly see the origins of the beliefs without the mysticism and the like. It is widely different to what is described in the video.

No Christian believes Jesus was born on December 25th and really the whole video falls down on this point. A great deal of pagan holidays were adopted into Christianity under the Roman empire...they didnt want the people to give up the holidays(or the people certainly didnt) just because Christianity became the state religion. So it was adopted for this day...so there is no real link here...there could be to the pagan festival that pre-dated it..but it was simply a Roman nominating a day of an existing holiday.

There is some question about whether other myths came into christianity at this time such as veneration of the mother/son etc...but that is for another time :)

Horus wasn't the sun god in ancient Egypt. That was Ra. Horus was the son of Osiris who was revived by isis for his conception. the christian death and ressurection actually a lot closer to Osirus' life than Horus. So the video jumps through a lot of hoops trying to make that link. Horus was not conceived by virgin birth. Horus was God of the sky (sun AND moon and everything in it).

Horus' birthday was on the 5th day of the Epagomenal Days, which takes place in late August or sometimes in late July.

There was only one battle between Horus and Set, not a daily one over the sun.

I can't comment on the Hindu or ancient Greek or Roman Gods as my knowledge of them isn't strong enough...but based on what i do know the video lacks quite a bit of credibility in its conclusions and assumptions.

SV1973a
03-06-2010, 10:53
interesting you say you were not alive but your body was?

In the same sense that a tree or a plant is also alive.


Doesn't this then make a difference between the "I" and the body?

Sure there is a difference. The `I` is only there when the brain is operating normally (whatever that may mean). If the brain is shut-off (like with the narcosis), or if it is damaged or destroyed, there will be no more `I`.


There are many occasions ,in even natural sleep, where there appears to be no time lapse at all. Micro-naps are common in tired drivers, they have no concept how long their eyes have been closed for-only to find a truck infront of them when they open them, even though they "think" they only blinked or maybe nor even closed their eyes at all.

Micro-naps is something different. That is a natural process of falling asleep.


The bible says it best ,actually, that if Christ did not die and raise from the grave:
"Drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die!" In other words if there is no God etc , life is short , play hard and do everything you want before you become worm food, long forgotten of this world.

This I did not fully understand, I`m afraid. But I indeed live by the philosophy to `drink and be merry, for tomorrow I die`, and I enjoy life as much as I can.

SV1973a
03-06-2010, 11:03
I can sy one thing: if I ever lost my faith in God, I would commit suicide.

Why`s that?
I fail to see why you should only want to live in the knowledge that there is a god. I can understand that some people want to step out of this life, and persons may see good reasons for this, but `losing faith in god`does not seem to be one of them.

Let`s say you lost your faith in god. Would you start stealing, raping, murdering, ... ? I don`t.

Russian Lad
03-06-2010, 12:19
For you believers to understand SV's point better, here are 2 more questions for you: Do you remember yourself before birth or, say, 1 or 2 months after your inception? Do you sometimes have a sleep without dreams?
I think that most likely that's the state we will be in after death. Right now it seems to me the most logical, though certainly not the most pleasant, outcome.

len
03-06-2010, 12:30
For you believers to understand SV's point better, here are 2 more questions for you: Do you remember yourself before birth or, say, 1 or 2 months after your inception? Do you sometimes have a sleep without dreams?


can you answer them yourself?

yakspeare
03-06-2010, 12:35
Mickey...this rips to shreds that video:

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/#horus

Russian Lad
03-06-2010, 12:36
can you answer them yourself?

My answer is obvious, no?
I don't remember myself before I was born and I do sleep without dreams sometimes. The state of absolute vacuum beyond any caring or self-perception.

MickeyTong
03-06-2010, 15:02
Mickey...this rips to shreds that video:

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-one/#horus

Well, yes, I did say there were errors.

yakspeare
03-06-2010, 15:18
yeah some errors are not an issue...but really it appears the whole vid is bogus. but at least it gave me something to look up and read for a bit :)

shurale
03-06-2010, 15:26
Well, if your God takes to heaven people like Chikatilo I would rather park my balls in hell, no problem.
By the way, I don't hate your Lord, just like I don't hate Santa or Alice. How can I have any feelings towards someone whose existence I seriously doubt? Again, lack of logic on your part.

You should want to go to heaven even if He takes there people like Chikatilo and Ted Bundy. Just because in Hell you will be in pain and that pain will be eternal.

You like 1984? It's a great book. Consider this

“Nothing in the world was so bad as physical pain. In the face of pain there are no heroes, no heroes, he thought over and over as he writhed on the floor, clutching uselessly his disabled left arm.”

Viola
03-06-2010, 15:32
You should want to go to heaven even if He takes there people like Chikatilo and Ted Bundy. Just because in Hell you will be in pain and that pain will be eternal.

[/I]

I amfraid we all have little chance to go to Heaven :D
YouTube- Proving that nobody can get into heaven

rusmeister
03-06-2010, 16:03
Again, too many good posts - I can't keep up with them.

I'll second Bogatyr's recommendation to 2ndWind to check out Clark Carlton. I grew up Baptist and he just totally nails everything that was wrong with the Baptists, some of which lead me to my 20-yr period of agnosticism.

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/from_baptist_to_first_century.htm

(To 2nd Wind:) I think you might find an awful lot in common with that man, certainly at least as far as what he realized about the Baptists.

As to your other ideas, about cannibalism, etc, you ought to trouble yourself to find out how we really see it - what you'd have to do to get us to accept anything you say is correctly describe what we believe. As long as you can't do that - as long as you are coming from what the people you were part of believed - those arguments mean nothing whatsoever, because we agree with you. We also reject such beliefs.

Russian Lad
03-06-2010, 16:59
I amfraid we all have little chance to go to Heaven

A great find, Viola! So, what do the believers say to this? Or they prefer to stick their heads into sand now?


A good site indeed:
http://godisimaginary.com/

shurale
03-06-2010, 17:23
I am sorry but I don't understand what that heretic wrote about the consumption at the very end.

"In the Mystery we do not partake of dead meat, but of living flesh, the Flesh of the God-Man. It is alive not only through Its union with His human Soul, but also through Its union with the Divine Spirit"

So, if an adult crocodile kills a juvenile crocodile and eats it, then it is definitely cannibalism.
But if an adult crocodile swallows a baby crocodile (while the baby croc is still alive), then it is not cannibalism, but partaking of living flesh. Right?


DIALOGUE BETWEEN AN ORTHODOX AND AN ECUMENIST

ON THE BODY AND BLOOD OF CHRIST

Vladimir Moss

Orthodox. My friend, I would like to ask you a question: what do you understand by the words, “We are saved by the Blood of Christ”?

Ecumenist. That we are saved by the Sacrifice of Christ Crucified, whereby He washed away our sins in His own Blood shed on the Cross.

Orthodox. I agree. And how precisely are our sins washed away?

Ecumenist. By partaking of the Holy Mysteries of the Church with true faith and love, and especially the Mystery of the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist.

Orthodox. Excellent! So you agree that in the Mystery of the Body and Blood of Christ we partake of the very same Body that was nailed to the Cross and the very same Blood that was shed from the side of the Saviour?

Ecumenist. Er, yes…

Orthodox. I see that you hesitate, my friend. Is there something wrong in what I said?

Ecumenist. Not exactly… However, you must be careful not to understand the Mystery in a cannibalistic sense.

Orthodox. “Cannibalistic”? What do you mean, my friend? What is cannibalistic here?

Ecumenist. Well, I mean that we must not understand the Body of Christ in the Eucharist to be a hunk of meat. That would be close to cannibalism - to paganism.

Orthodox. You know, the early Christians were accused of being cannibals by their enemies. However, cannibals eat dead meat. In the Mystery we do not partake of dead meat, but of living flesh, the Flesh of the God-Man. It is alive not only through Its union with His human Soul, but also through Its union with the Divine Spirit.

shurale
03-06-2010, 17:25
On the side note, it's very interesting but a group of crocodiles is called a float.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Crocodylus_niloticus.jpg

Russian Lad
03-06-2010, 17:28
Come on, ostriches, answer my question:)

MickeyTong
03-06-2010, 18:02
yeah some errors are not an issue...but really it appears the whole vid is bogus. but at least it gave me something to look up and read for a bit :)

So you'll know about gods who died every winter solstice and were reborn at the spring solstice, saving us by bringing vegetation back to life.





Of course, the feminist perspective holds that it is the blood sacrifice made by women every month which ensures the continued life of our species. And that male circumcision was a pathetic attempt by disaffected androcentrists to duplicate women's ability to create life. (Not that I blame them for being disaffected - matriarchal societies were not idyllic paradises touted by radical feminists.)

len
03-06-2010, 18:03
I amfraid we all have little chance to go to Heaven
that nobody can get into heaven

let me refer to you viola and not the other one who asked the same question.....

am so glad you used the word LITTLE and not NO. It means there is chance.
of course we have litttle chance of going to heaven. humann being
look at each other with outward deed. one might be doing good while scorning in the inside, which we believe is an err before the Lord. your outward gesture will be appreciated by a human being but rejected by God all the same. He already sees the motive. Man is motive.

shurale
03-06-2010, 18:06
That is why it is called Faith.


A great find, Viola! So, what do the believers say to this? Or they prefer to stick their heads into sand now?


A good site indeed:
http://godisimaginary.com/

Russian Lad
03-06-2010, 18:17
That is why it is called Faith.

Well, that's what all of my conversations with Christians eventually come down to in real life as well. You start asking questions, first they try to offer some rationalizations of their faith, but when even they see how ludicrous and incoherent it all sounds they have this ultimate and single response to all questions: "That is why it is called Faith" or "One just either believes or not". Real smart. Among the Orthodox here a very popular response is also: "I don't want to discuss it". Wake up, people! Your minds are being tampered with!

len
03-06-2010, 18:19
Originally Posted by shurale
You should want to go to heaven even if He takes there people like Chikatilo and Ted Bundy. Just because in Hell you will be in pain and that pain will be eternal.

[/I]

Shurale
according to my knowledge, human beings will be punished according to their
mistakes/sins. There is no way hell can be eternall. God is a God of Love, He cannot stand to see His children suffer forever. That is not,was not His intention.