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koba65
21-03-2005, 10:07
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Well, that's exactly how the US consulate works here, I guess.

The reason the US Consulate has to work that way here is because of the number of fradulent visa requests, i.e., a lot of people say they're going to the US as "tourists" but end up staying there. This means the US has to interview the people to try to assess their true intent (hard to do, but nonetheless, necessary, I guess). Russians who don't like the current visa regime should complain to Russians who abuse it. The rotten few spoil it for the many.

It's understandable that the RF government would take the same measures "diplomatically," but fiscally it makes absolutely zero sense for the RF government to interview Americans using the same rational as the US government - how many Americans come here to stay illegally versus the number of Russians traveling to the US? But hey, if they want to waste money that could go into pensions, or military salaries, or utilities, etc., so be it - wounded pride can be an ugly thing.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 10:16
Koba, I don't care. US citizens applying for Russian visas should be treated equally to Russian citizens applying for US visas.

koba65
21-03-2005, 10:29
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Koba, I don't care. US citizens applying for Russian visas should be treated equally to Russian citizens applying for US visas.

Fair enough, and Russian citizens obtaining US visas should be expected to obey US laws on immigration, as US citizens are expected to here. The reason the interview program is as it is now is because of the numbers of Russian visa seekers who lie about their intentions - once they arrive in the US they "disappear." I'm not saying all do, but the numbers are large enough to make the US Consulate start an interview program. You'll notice that other countries don't have this program - why? Because their visa seekers travel to the US and come home when the visa runs out.


If I had my way, we wouldn't have a visa regime and there would be unrestricted travel, unfortunately, people abuse the system. The only people being "hurt" are the law-abiding ones - they spoil it for the rest of us. Frankly, most Americans who can afford to travel here can afford to go to the visa interviews. What you're forgetting about is the costs for running such a program. I don't know if you are a Russian citizen or not, but if so, wouldn't you want to see your tax money being spent a little more wiser instead of being used in a "tit-for-tat" game about visas?

And as far as equality is concerned - I guess you'll call for the elimination of the registration of foreigners at hotels, apartments, etc? And for the Russian police, a branch of the government, to stop targetting foreigners for bribes?

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 10:34
Koba, I'm sure you know a couple of US citizens breaking immigration laws here, like working on a business visa...
But fair enough, if a Russian citizen abroad breaks immigration laws, I'm all for his extradiction.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 10:37
And yes, I'm a Russian citizen, and I'm all for eliminating all restrictions for foreigners, especially this stupid registrations thing. But I'm a definitely for a "tit-for-tat" game, simply because I respect myself, and don't think someone has to have more rights simply because he is a US citizen. If you don't respect yourself, no one will

koba65
21-03-2005, 10:39
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Koba, I'm sure you know a couple of US citizens breaking immigration laws here, like working on a business visa...
But fair enough, if a Russian citizen abroad breaks immigration laws, I'm all for his extradiction.

Actually, I don't know anyone violating the immigration laws here - who would want to risk a stay at Butyrka? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the numbers are small in comparison.

You were quick to throw at the "equal treatment" statement, but what do you think about the fact that foreigners have to pay more to enter museums, more to travel on trains, more to stay at hotels, etc? Is it fair to charge foreigners more than you do Russians? Is that equal treatment?

koba65
21-03-2005, 10:40
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
And yes, I'm a Russian citizen, and I'm all for eliminating all restrictions for foreigners, especially this stupid registrations thing. But I'm a definitely for a "tit-for-tat" game, simply because I respect myself, and don't think someone has to have more rights simply because he is a US citizen. If you don't respect yourself, no one will

So the US should start charging Russians more to purchase airline tickets, train tickets, museum tickets and increase the rate of the rooms in hotels?

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 10:46
Originally posted by koba65
Actually, I don't know anyone violating the immigration laws here - who would want to risk a stay at Butyrka? I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but the numbers are small in comparison.

You were quick to throw at the "equal treatment" statement, but what do you think about the fact that foreigners have to pay more to enter museums, more to travel on trains, more to stay at hotels, etc? Is it fair to charge foreigners more than you do Russians? Is that equal treatment? Hell, just search the topics here. It's filled with questions like "I know it illegal, but can work on a business visa here". Last time I met with foreigners being overcharged, was in Belarus. But this is not Russia anymore. If/when this happens, it is of course, despicable. But I guess, US is free to counteract the same way in this case.

Shara
21-03-2005, 10:49
I believe the reason the U.S. makes it so difficult for foreigners to get visas (especially Russians) is that the U.S. is so attractive to possible illegal emmigrants and we are so spectacularly bad at enforcing the visa restrictions once people get in. Most Americans probably wouldn't think of immigrating to another country especially not illegally. Would many foreigners try to emmigrate to the US? I think yes. I know a few who have.
It isn't a good system but it has its reasons. No, US citizens are not better than Russians. We're just less of an emmigration risk (except me ;) )
As for the higher prices at museums etc, i hate that.

koba65
21-03-2005, 10:55
Originally posted by Shara
As for the higher prices at museums etc, i hate that.

The whole visa issue is stupid, but unavoidable - I was shocked it took Russia this long to start doing the whole reciprocity thing. It only hurts them - they are cash starved and tourists bring in a lot of money. Unfortunately, getting a Russian visa has never been a hassle free experience and then when people get here they get gouged on museums, theater tickets, hotel rooms, and usually a bribe or two to a ment (all because they're foreign)- thus spoiling a visit to a wonderful and interesting country. Next, the tourists go home and tell their friends not to bother going to Russia because of the aforementioned problems. It's really a shame.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 10:55
well, i'm not denying any of these. but as i have said before, i want equal rights. i don't care about US immigration problems, all i know that i as a bone fide traveler have to go through a humiliating process of "proving" that i have no intention to stay there. if that's the case, i expect the US travelers to go through the same process.

plastique
21-03-2005, 10:56
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Last time I met with foreigners being overcharged, was in Belarus. But this is not Russia anymore. If/when this happens, it is of course, despicable. But I guess, US is free to counteract the same way in this case.


St. Petersburg--EVERY MUSEUM, Boat Ride EVERYTHING is a 2 tiered system

Pushkin, Bolshoi, train to Petersburg, Kremlin, the bag check at the kremlin---have all tried to screw me with the foreigner price until i show (and have to fight with them) them my Russian studentischkii bylet. I'm not a student anymore so it is not valid. I refuse to go to any of these places-I have lived here for 4 years- no it doesn't make me russian, but sometimes those street beggars have more money than me--so pulling that "you americans are so much richer than us poor russians" arugment doesn't fly---How many millionaires are in this city?"

I also learned real quick that if I could read the menu I would be paying through the nose (not to mention that lovely y.e.=33r crap they are pulling now.)
America may be the land of opportunity, buy hands down this is the land of opportunists.

koba65
21-03-2005, 11:00
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Hell, just search the topics here. It's filled with questions like "I know it illegal, but can work on a business visa here". Last time I met with foreigners being overcharged, was in Belarus. But this is not Russia anymore. If/when this happens, it is of course, despicable. But I guess, US is free to counteract the same way in this case.

I've been to Belarus several times and have never been charged differently than Belarusians - same in Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, etc. The only places I've had a "foreigner tax" imposed on me is in Russia and Turkmenistan. As a matter of fact, a Russian colleague and I are going to Minsk this week - her ticket is a LOT cheaper than mine (Russian ticket agency).

DPG
21-03-2005, 11:00
I can definitely see where you are coming from on the rights issue, Preacher...

I also think that even you will admit that what Koba says above about Russia "biting off its nose to spite its face" with regards to lost tourism revenue is something that is costing this country dearly, and something that needs to be addressed.

I'm all for equal rights, but on balance (ok, I'm not Russian so I can't comment 'by birthright' but after 3 years here.......) I would go for abolishing Russian visas for the USA, EU, NZ, AUS citizens and using the money saved (from the process) to create better tourist infrastructure and to market the place to (much needed) tourists. Wasn't the estimated figure that Russia isn't tapping into something like $3B a year?!

What about you??

koba65
21-03-2005, 11:02
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
well, i'm not denying any of these. but as i have said before, i want equal rights. i don't care about US immigration problems, all i know that i as a bone fide traveler have to go through a humiliating process of "proving" that i have no intention to stay there. if that's the case, i expect the US travelers to go through the same process.

How do you feel about the millions of dollars in aid the US gives (that's right "gives" not "loans") the Russian government? Are you against this? Does your pride prohibit you from taking this aid? From accepting a job that's created by the aid? This, of course, does not give US citizens any "special rights"...

koba65
21-03-2005, 11:04
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
well, i'm not denying any of these. but as i have said before, i want equal rights. i don't care about US immigration problems, all i know that i as a bone fide traveler have to go through a humiliating process of "proving" that i have no intention to stay there. if that's the case, i expect the US travelers to go through the same process.

Would you expect Russian travelers to go through the same thing foreigners go through when traveling in the provinces? I could tell you horror stories about what goes on in the hotels.

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 11:04
Originally posted by koba65
same in Ukraine,

sure, the ukrainian visa laws that change minutes before you arrive at the border and require a small "surcharge" apply to everyone! it's always reassuring to have the bitch serving the carriage pointing the moron guards to your particular cabin for the crime of having a western passport.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 11:05
Originally posted by koba65
they are cash starved and tourists bring in a lot of money you are kidding, right? $135 billion in CB reserves, $25 billion in stabilization fund, and $10 billion budget surplus can hardly be called cash starving. Now let's make a small calculation. About 80,000 Americans visit Russia every year. Let's say, for the sake of easiness, that a 7 day trip costs $2,000 for one person, plus an American tourist spend about $1000 here on overcharged museums, food etc. That is $240 mln. TOPS. The real figure is way below that. This is really nothing - the price of 10 MIG's. Don't overestimate yourselves. We can really do without your tourists.

koba65
21-03-2005, 11:05
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
sure, the ukrainian visa laws that change minutes before you arrive at the border and require a small "surcharge" apply to everyone! it's always reassuring to have the bitch serving the carriage pointing the moron guards to your particular cabin for the crime of having a western passport.

I've had just the opposite happen - got special treatment for having an American passport - (didn't want it - draws attention). My experiences in Ukraine have always been pleasant.

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 11:07
i like ukraine, too. i'm surprised you've never had the special visitation though.

koba65
21-03-2005, 11:08
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
you are kidding, right? $135 billion in CB reserves, $25 billion in stabilization fund, and $10 billion budget surplus can hardly be called cash starving. Now let's make a small calculation. About 80,000 Americans visit Russia every year. Let's say, for the sake of easiness, that a 7 day trip costs $2,000 for one person, plus an American tourist spend about $1000 here on overcharged museums, food etc. That is $240 mln. TOPS. The real figure is way below that. This is really nothing - the price of 10 MIG's. Don't overestimate yourselves. We can really do without your tourists.

Do you know how much aid Russia receives from the US and other countries? If you're so "cash rich" why the aid? And why the desparity in the gap between rich and poor? Why the cuts in the budget on pensioners? Why is the army still based on conscription? Why are the police so woefully underpaid that they are willing to accept bribes from terrorists?

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 11:09
Originally posted by koba65
How do you feel about the millions of dollars in aid the US gives (that's right "gives" not "loans") the Russian government? Are you against this? Does your pride prohibit you from taking this aid? From accepting a job that's created by the aid? This, of course, does not give US citizens any "special rights"... Russia hasn't been "given" any money since 1998. Instead we have been repaying our debts ahead of schedule, if you don't know. And yes, I would never accept a job from a US-funded organisation.

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 11:10
Originally posted by koba65
Do you know how much aid Russia receives from the US and other countries? If you're so "cash rich" why the aid? And why the desparity in the gap between rich and poor? Why the cuts in the budget on pensioners? Why is the army still based on conscription? Why are the police so woefully underpaid that they are willing to accept bribes from terrorists?

because there are more important priorities like new missiles to penetrate anti-missile defence and new television stations to increase patriotism.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 11:13
Originally posted by DPG
I'm all for equal rights, but on balance (ok, I'm not Russian so I can't comment 'by birthright' but after 3 years here.......) I would go for abolishing Russian visas for the USA, EU, NZ, AUS citizens and using the money saved (from the process) to create better tourist infrastructure and to market the place to (much needed) tourists. Wasn't the estimated figure that Russia isn't tapping into something like $3B a year?!What about you?? I'm for using the oil money to cut taxes, thus allowing the national capital to invest into different areas, including tourism. I'm all for abolishing visas on a reciprocal basis.

koba65
21-03-2005, 11:16
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Russia hasn't been "given" any money since 1998. Instead we have been repaying our debts ahead of schedule, if you don't know. And yes, I would never accept a job from a US-funded organisation.

Try again - at least 6 BILLION since 1999. You need to familiarize yourself with at least two programs - Cooperative Threat Reduction and US AID. There are others, of course, but the "aid" you are talking about are loans - I'm talking about "aid" not requiring pay back.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 11:16
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
because there are more important priorities like new missiles to penetrate anti-missile defence and new television stations to increase patriotism. Luckily, we are free to set our own priorities. But thanks for the tip anyway

koba65
21-03-2005, 11:18
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Luckily, we are free to set our own priorities. But thanks for the tip anyway


So, Russia's a rich country. ARe you perhaps a Muscovite? Try traveling to the provinces - I'd say the money would be better spent on infrastructure and social programs, but, gee what do I know?

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 11:18
i know man, i can see a new missile over a better pension or a professional army. i'm not one of these western doubting thomases.

koba65
21-03-2005, 11:20
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
I'm for using the oil money to cut taxes, thus allowing the national capital to invest into different areas, including tourism. I'm all for abolishing visas on a reciprocal basis.

I'd like to see the visas abolished as well.

The oil money is no good as long as the system is corrupt. Without serious reforms to the system the money goes out of the country into foreign banks, and foreign holdings.

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 11:20
Originally posted by koba65
I'd say the money would be better spent on infrastructure and social programs, but, gee what do I know?

obviously nothing because you may as well give it straight to the local bureaucrat who'll steal it anyway.

preacher is right in this case: cut taxes and let the private sector do it.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 11:21
Originally posted by koba65
Try again - at least 6 BILLION since 1999. You need to familiarize yourself with at least two programs - Cooperative Threat Reduction and US AID. There are others, of course, but the "aid" you are talking about are loans - I'm talking about "aid" not requiring pay back. Sure, my bad. But this US gives this aid because it feels that if it doesn't something will get out of hand. This is in US interest. Stop it if you want. I couldn't care less. As far as I'm concerned, I'm against ANY foreign aid whatsoever. With these commodity prices, I think we should pay it back and keep cutting taxes.

koba65
21-03-2005, 11:22
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Luckily, we are free to set our own priorities. But thanks for the tip anyway

Since you're such a "patriot" you won't mind the following question - did you fulfill your patriotic duty and serve in the Army, or is that for the other classes of people?

Braders
21-03-2005, 11:39
Moved from Information.



Originally posted by koba65
Since you're such a "patriot" you won't mind the following question - did you fulfill your patriotic duty and serve in the Army, or is that for the other classes of people?


Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
I'm Leutenant of the Reserve. Does that answer your question? And i'm not a "patriot". I am a patriot if that means anything to you.



Originally posted by koba65
A LT. in the Reserves allows you to fulfill your "obligation" while not actually serving and not having any real danger of serving in goryachie tochki - nice. A system that benefits the priviledged classes.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 11:45
A LT. in the Reserves allows you to fulfill your "obligation" while not actually serving and not having any real danger of serving in goryachie tochki - nice. A system that benefits the priviledged classes. This system allows me to serve my country in time of need there where it can most benefit from my knowledge of 3 European languages, ability to manage people, analyse and draw conclusions. You should know battles are not won on the actual battlefield but in the offices.

koba65
21-03-2005, 12:03
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
This system allows me to serve my country in time of need there where it can most benefit from my knowledge of 3 European languages, ability to manage people, analyse and draw conclusions. You should know battles are not won on the actual battlefield but in the offices.

Oi yoi yoi!! Beautiful - not. Puhleeze, your knowledge of 3 European languages allow you to serve when needed??? Pure unadulterated b.s. . You're using the system to avoid serving in tasks for which you probably don't have the stomach. And, battles are PLANNED in offices and WON on the field. There are too many unknown variables when waging war for it to be won from "offices" -that's why most nations employ a professional army with a professional cadre of well-trained Non-Commissioned Officers (NCOs) and junior ACTIVE DUTY officers- those are the people who make adjustments to the plans that win the battles. You're only a reserve Lt, so I'll forgive you your naivete.

I surely hope you don't really think you're somehow "awaiting call up" for those "battles" which are nicely tailored to your special expertise. Come on - I know your military system extremely well - I work on a daily basis with them. Reserve officers, especially junior ones, become such to avoid conscription. It's a benefit allowed to the families of the elite and priviledged - any other acclaimations are pure fluff.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 12:19
My knowledge of 3 languages shows that instead of drinking vodka i had been studying my a** off at the books. Now the system recognises that and allows me to skip serving in "goryachie tochki" simply because I'm not fit for it. Just like some people are fit for physical exercises rather than mental. If there is war, I will definitely go. If the system wishes to send me to the battlefield I will still go, because I think it is everyone's duty to die for your country. But this will be extremely ineffective for the system.
Now regarding your "most nations employ a professional army". Please, don't give me this crap. There is one great army that is professional, but it is based a) on a doctrine of agression b) geographical distance from possible enemies thus making it useless having a large conscript army. In most cases Active Duty is enough. Other armies, you will probably refer me to are either a supplement to the US army (British, Caanadian) or are not meant to defend from anything (any other European army)

jheisel
21-03-2005, 12:25
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
If there is war, I will definitely go.

When wil you be packing your bags for Chechnya?

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 12:29
When my country is attacked by an enemy, and mobilization starts

jheisel
21-03-2005, 12:31
So the qualifier, "if the system selects me, etc..." that I edited out is really the key part to your comment, yes? Your country, as far as I can tell as a foreigner living in it, HAS been attacked by interal enemies (with the possible help of outside powers). So, just waiting for the call?

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 12:38
The country has a separatist group of people in its south, who are being dealt with.
Where was I saying I was ready to go anywhere where there is conflict? I have a peaceful profession, while there are trained people whose profession is to fight. It's their job. I was talking about a major all-out attack, a "popular war".

monkey-girl
21-03-2005, 12:59
You guys feel free to criticize both immigration systems (Russian and American that is) still it's very unlikely that something will be changed for the better in this direction. Such discussion itself seems to me just pointless as it leads to nothing but arguing.

The basic problem is still the mentality (both foreign and Russian) and and post-Soviet heritage of the Russian history. Dozens of years should pass to change it!!! Soviet type of mentality is still very common for most of people living in Russia and it causes the corresponding attitude from the foreignersí side towards Russian people. Some foreigners still imagine Russians as a deprived nation having no proper food to eat or clothes to wear, etc. living their life standing in queues.

The thing is that while during the 'Soviet period' most of the immigration rules and restrictions concerning foreigners were set by Russia initially now itís vice versa: Russia establishes new immigration rules in retortion. And I can understand both sides (Russian and American in the discussed issue).

Letís assume that Russia abolishes the immigration rules towards the US or EU citizens? Do you really believe the same will be done by the USA or EU towards the Russians? I bet it wonít!

Also when it comes to discussing the question of why so many people still try and use all the means (both legal and illegal) to leave Russia and settle somewhere in the West it can also be justified from the following point of view: as a general rule itís essential a human being to seek for a good/better place to live and if a state where he/she lives does not provide its citizens with proper social standards it is clear that an individual might either think of improving the life of the country (my personal respect to all maximalists) or moving somewhere else if there is such a opportunity (which is sometimes just an easier option).

Iím not an apologist of the idea of illegal immigration for the purpose of 'living a better life' but I can admit that for some people (for example Russian scientists) the best way to live their life they want and develop their professional skills is just moving abroad. Thatís probably why Iíve chosen an occupation that enables me to live in Russia happily not wishing to move anywhere.

Last but not least: Itís the country we all live in at the moment (on different bases) whether it is good or bad. If something/somebody violates your human rights or national feelings you have the chance wither to claim it to the corresponding bodies or just try and adjust yourself to living here. For some people conformism is just the best way to live their life happily for others itís inadmissible so different people solve their life issues differently.

I may be not satisfied by the rules applied to me while getting visas at various Embassies but I canít do anything but being a 'bonae fidei' traveller as well which implies getting and providing all the documents necessary and obey the law. I may be not happy being forced to register in Moscow when moving here but such is the law at the moment.

Thank you.

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 13:39
monkey, that was really boring and spoiled a good debate that was just starting to get personal, the best stage. nothing worse than a do-gooder.

i think you should apologise to koba and preacher immediately!

koba65
21-03-2005, 13:58
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
monkey, that was really boring and spoiled a good debate that was just starting to get personal, the best stage. nothing worse than a do-gooder.

i think you should apologise to koba and preacher immediately!

Really! I can't speak for Preacher, but it was just getting good!

monkey-girl
21-03-2005, 14:00
Originally posted by Ned Kelly

i think you should apologise to koba and preacher immediately!

feel free to do it on my behalf :p

monkey-girl
21-03-2005, 14:01
Originally posted by koba65
Really! I can't speak for Preacher, but it was just getting good!

Koba! Don't be so 'blood-thirsty' :)

Please

koba65
21-03-2005, 14:03
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
My knowledge of 3 languages shows that instead of drinking vodka i had been studying my a** off at the books. Now the system recognises that and allows me to skip serving in "goryachie tochki" simply because I'm not fit for it. Just like some people are fit for physical exercises rather than mental. If there is war, I will definitely go. If the system wishes to send me to the battlefield I will still go, because I think it is everyone's duty to die for your country. But this will be extremely ineffective for the system.
Now regarding your "most nations employ a professional army". Please, don't give me this crap. There is one great army that is professional, but it is based a) on a doctrine of agression b) geographical distance from possible enemies thus making it useless having a large conscript army. In most cases Active Duty is enough. Other armies, you will probably refer me to are either a supplement to the US army (British, Caanadian) or are not meant to defend from anything (any other European army)

Gee, you're a true military "mind." It's attitudes like yours that gives the "Russian haters" hope that your system will continue to eat itself from within. You are not a true patriot, just an "elitist" who thinks that he's too above the fray to have to do the real heavy lifting. For you it's quite reasonable to spout nationalist rhetoric as long as the vodka swilling peasants fight the wars you ballyhoo. Heaven forbid someone who has learned 3 languages be sent to defend the motherland. You are right about one thing - you're not fit for it - a LT with your attitude would have a bigger chance getting killed by his own troops.

I'm sure the Aussies, Brits, Germans, Canadians, Dutch, etc., would be interested in learning from a reserve "never served" Russian LT that their militaries are not, in his opinion, "professional."

koba65
21-03-2005, 14:04
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
When my country is attacked by an enemy, and mobilization starts

Why did you choose the "reserve" route instead of doing 2 years in the real Russian Army - there's a call-up twice a year - you're free to volunteer, btw. I'm sure the Army will find something suitable to your skills.

koba65
21-03-2005, 14:06
Originally posted by monkey-girl
Koba! Don't be so 'blood-thirsty' :)

Please

It's Monday - I have to find a way to stay awake!

monkey-girl
21-03-2005, 14:09
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!:verymad:

somebody :stop: them!!!!!!

koba65
21-03-2005, 14:11
Originally posted by monkey-girl
Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!:verymad:

somebody :stop: them!!!!!!

Them's da dangers of visiting the political forum, besides Preacher man knows I'm just winding him up for a bit of debate.

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 14:21
Originally posted by koba65
Really! I can't speak for Preacher, but it was just getting good! I had my hands shivering with anxiety!!! You know... Damn.

monkey-girl
21-03-2005, 14:24
Okay I must admit my 'peace mission' has failed! :D

Will better get some work done now!

Have fun boys! :p

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 14:32
Originally posted by monkey-girl
Okay I must admit my 'peace mission' has failed! :D

Will better get some work done now!

Have fun boys! :p

yes, peaceniks pi** off!

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 14:36
Originally posted by koba65
Gee, you're a true military "mind." It's attitudes like yours that gives the "Russian haters" hope that your system will continue to eat itself from within. You are not a true patriot, just an "elitist" who thinks that he's too above the fray to have to do the real heavy lifting. For you it's quite reasonable to spout nationalist rhetoric as long as the vodka swilling peasants fight the wars you ballyhoo. Heaven forbid someone who has learned 3 languages be sent to defend the motherland. You are right about one thing - you're not fit for it - a LT with your attitude would have a bigger chance getting killed by his own troops.

I'm sure the Aussies, Brits, Germans, Canadians, Dutch, etc., would be interested in learning from a reserve "never served" Russian LT that their militaries are not, in his opinion, "professional." It's funny that you decide who is patriot and who is not. Not serving does not mean anything. You can serve your country in many ways, only you seem to prefer "cannon fodder". Speaking for yourself? Too bad you don't qualify for anything more sophisticated. And let me break this news to you. Inequality has always been there, and we are born unequal. Get over it

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 14:41
Originally posted by monkey-girl
Okay I must admit my 'peace mission' has failed!

think of me as the andrei gromyko to your peace mission!

monkey-girl
21-03-2005, 14:49
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
think of me as the andrei gromyko to your peace mission!

Man! You're dreamin'!

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 14:50
you thought highly of mr nyet i see...

monkey-girl
21-03-2005, 15:06
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
you thought highly of mr nyet i see...

Well I wasn't introduced to him in person as you may have guessed so I don't have a personal opinion about his personality. Can only refer to history books :)

At least he was a well known Soviet political figure :) :p

koba65
21-03-2005, 15:10
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
It's funny that you decide who is patriot and who is not. Not serving does not mean anything. You can serve your country in many ways, only you seem to prefer "cannon fodder". Speaking for yourself? Too bad you don't qualify for anything more sophisticated. And let me break this news to you. Inequality has always been there, and we are born unequal. Get over it

A LT who calls soldiers cannon fodder - I see a great future for you, Mr. Bismark. A well run, managed, and successful Army usually avoids employing officers who think of their troops as "cannon fodder." I guess all the WWII heroes who fended off your country from Nazi invaders were also cannon fodder?

My point about patriotism is that the people who shout the loudest about the motherland and indignities it endures are usually the last ones to raise their hand and defend it - they all come with the same excuses, "My skills are such that I wouldn't be of any use in a menial task such as fighting a war," "I better serve the motherland with my brain," - it all translates to, "I'm a patriot when it suits me, I'll yell about how other countries are trying to tear us down, but when push comes to shove, let the peasant boys do the heavy lifting, I'm too intelligent for such work."

Some of the world's greatest thinkers, writers, politicians, artists, etc., served in jobs in the military that you would consider "cannon fodder."

Sorry to disappoint you, haven't been "cannon fodder" ever, regardless of 23 years of military service - why? Professional Army. Russia's refusal to implement reforms leading to a professional Army only plays into the hands of its enemies (real or perceived).

koba65
21-03-2005, 15:12
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
I had my hands shivering with anxiety!!! You know... Damn.


:D

aysihsK
21-03-2005, 15:15
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
I think it is everyone's duty to die for your country.

:eek: jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez! realy?? :eek:.....well for sure it is not MY duty :p....oh :cry: I live in the wrong country! Mom born me back! :cry: :D

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 15:22
i've never been in the army and have opposed every australian adventure abroad except when we gave those indonesian freaks in east timor a good slapping in 1999.

imagine that, a nation of 20mn boots one of 220mn in their own backyard! ;) there's your professional army preacher! there's a bit of ned jongoism!

(cue quincy to explain that the western press portrayed indonesia as an evil occupier when in fact it brought civilization to a backward country).

koba65
21-03-2005, 15:23
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
i've never been in the army and have opposed every australian adventure abroad except when we gave those indonesian freaks in east timor a good slapping in 1999.

imagine that, a nation of 20mn boots one of 220mn in their own backyard! ;) there's your professional army preacher! there's a bit of ned jongoism!

(cue quincy to explain that the western press portrayed indonesia as an evil occupier when in fact it brought civilization to a backward country).

I've served with your boys - nothing but the upmost respect for them.

Speaking of quincy, where'd he go? He's been soooo silent lately. I was waiting for his take on the Chubais thing.

DPG
21-03-2005, 15:26
Preacher - I think you'd do well to look up a quote by General Patton (Koba will correct me if it wasn't him, but it was certainly a US general in WWII). Something along the lines of:

Soldier: I'm ready to die for my country, Sir.

Patton: You will be much more useful to me if you stay alive and fight.

aysihsK
21-03-2005, 15:27
yeaaaaaaaaa! where is quincy? :watching::watching: who stole him? :eek:

aysihsK
21-03-2005, 15:30
:gorgeous:
:watching::watching:






:p

koba65
21-03-2005, 15:34
Originally posted by aysihsK
:gorgeous:
:watching::watching:






:p
Nice one!

PS - Monkey Girl, note K-girl's technique - she's a pro at peace-making! ;)

aysihsK
21-03-2005, 15:36
Originally posted by koba65
Nice one!


ah :rolleyes: don't pay attention ;) I'm just trying to get the best of the emotiocons they offer ;)

J.D.
21-03-2005, 15:47
I think I understand where he's coming from.
My father is a very important senator. How can you expect him to concentrate on his work and do a good job for his country if he is worring about his son, me, getting killed in some stupid war.

monkey-girl
21-03-2005, 15:58
Originally posted by koba65
Nice one!

PS - Monkey Girl, note K-girl's technique - she's a pro at peace-making! ;)

Political forum's indeed the best place for smiley-design practice :)

Kshisya is no doubt talented in such peace-making but I prefer to express my attitude in my own way if even the "peace-effect" is not as strong as one resulting from the smiley posted above :D

Thanks

Ned Kelly
21-03-2005, 16:01
Originally posted by monkey-girl
Political forum's indeed the best place for smiley-design practice :)

Kshisya is no doubt talented in such peace-making but I prefer to express my attitude in my own way if even the "peace-effect" is not as strong as one resulting from the smiley posted above :D

Thanks

monkey, even an englishman would be disconcerted by your use of thanks in posts!

monkey-girl
21-03-2005, 16:04
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
monkey, even an englishman would be disconcerted by your use of thanks in posts!

thanks :D

preacher of hedonism
21-03-2005, 16:45
Originally posted by koba65
A LT who calls soldiers cannon fodder - I see a great future for you, Mr. Bismark. A well run, managed, and successful Army usually avoids employing officers who think of their troops as "cannon fodder." I guess all the WWII heroes who fended off your country from Nazi invaders were also cannon fodder?

My point about patriotism is that the people who shout the loudest about the motherland and indignities it endures are usually the last ones to raise their hand and defend it - they all come with the same excuses, "My skills are such that I wouldn't be of any use in a menial task such as fighting a war," "I better serve the motherland with my brain," - it all translates to, "I'm a patriot when it suits me, I'll yell about how other countries are trying to tear us down, but when push comes to shove, let the peasant boys do the heavy lifting, I'm too intelligent for such work."

Some of the world's greatest thinkers, writers, politicians, artists, etc., served in jobs in the military that you would consider "cannon fodder."

Sorry to disappoint you, haven't been "cannon fodder" ever, regardless of 23 years of military service - why? Professional Army. Russia's refusal to implement reforms leading to a professional Army only plays into the hands of its enemies (real or perceived). Talking to you is like an answering machine talking to an autopilot. There will always be guys in the line of fire, call them what you want, to do the job.
Serving the motherland with my brain, in my case, will definitely do her a better job rather than just getting shot within 30 seconds of the combat. That said, I swore allegiance, and I will stick to it, no matter what. Should it be combat, so be it.
Oh, and mentioning professional armies, I forgot to mention Australia (rightly noted, sorry Ned). Definitely a military which is far from a joke.

yankee@moscow
21-03-2005, 23:28
I can't believe that I wasted my time reading this whole thread. :o

The worst thing about this whole visa BS is that it makes it terribly difficult to do business between the countries. My company pays as much money trying to keep up with visa and work permit laws as they do paying for them, maybe more. It's freakin' insane. Make up your minds already! At least Russians know what they are up against when they go to the US embassy for a visa. It totally changes at least once maybe twice a year for us. I've had to get 2 to 3 HIV certificates for the past 3 years because I'm always needing a new permit, visa, certified employee card, and togdali. Where does it end?

Then there's the issue of having to leave the country all the time to be able to renew visas. Now for a work visa it's random whether you need to leave or not. It's no wonder any foreign company spends a ruble in this country to open an office. It's insane! How about those people that obtain a visa and then are turned away at the border because "someone" doesn't want them here, like maybe a rich business partner? Yeah, the US Embassy is full of evil crooks compared to these people.:confused:

Rant concluded.:)

J.D.
22-03-2005, 05:58
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
There will always be guys in the line of fire, call them what you want, to do the job.
Serving the motherland with my brain, in my case, will definitely do her a better job rather than just getting shot within 30 seconds of the combat.

You mean like "If you want to make an omelte you have to break some eggs"?
Well if you're looking for a post outside of combat you can forget politics.
I think the best use of you would probably be as an agent provacatuer.
Hmmm . . . were you really planted in Russian society by one her smart enemies?

Goose0009
22-03-2005, 08:13
Originally posted by koba65
Gee, you're a true military "mind." It's attitudes like yours that gives the "Russian haters" hope that your system will continue to eat itself from within. You are not a true patriot, just an "elitist" who thinks that he's too above the fray to have to do the real heavy lifting. For you it's quite reasonable to spout nationalist rhetoric as long as the vodka swilling peasants fight the wars you ballyhoo. Heaven forbid someone who has learned 3 languages be sent to defend the motherland. You are right about one thing - you're not fit for it - a LT with your attitude would have a bigger chance getting killed by his own troops.

I'm sure the Aussies, Brits, Germans, Canadians, Dutch, etc., would be interested in learning from a reserve "never served" Russian LT that their militaries are not, in his opinion, "professional."
Koba this is getting scary. I might just have to agree with you on this one.

koba65
22-03-2005, 10:30
Originally posted by Goose0009
Koba this is getting scary. I might just have to agree with you on this one.


Now that's just not right - you might want to rethink your position then! What would people think????

Goose0009
22-03-2005, 17:07
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Luckily, we are free to set our own priorities. But thanks for the tip anyway Ya that figures, The new Russian business men in moscow don't give sh@t about anything else. The wealthy new Russians are in Moscow capitalizing on others misfortunes living the good life. While on the whole, Russians living in the rest of the country struggle to get by. I think that mentality is the reason why Russia will never reach its potential. I don't think it will ever change. I am critical of the U.S. for the wealthy and government not reaching its potential but Hell at least my grandma doesn't have to stand on a street corner begging for money.

koba65
22-03-2005, 17:15
Originally posted by Goose0009
Ya that figures, The new Russian business men in moscow don't give sh@t about anything else. The wealthy new Russians are in Moscow capitalizing on others misfortunes living the good life. While on the whole, Russians living in the rest of the country struggle to get by. I think that mentality is the reason why Russia will never reach its potential. I don't think it will ever change. I am critical of the U.S. for the wealthy and government not reaching its potential but Hell at least my grandma doesn't have to stand on a street corner begging for money.

Alright, now you just stop saying things that I agree with... I'm growing concerned.

Goose0009
22-03-2005, 21:42
Originally posted by koba65
Alright, now you just stop saying things that I agree with... I'm growing concerned.
I know I am a fanatic but I will always stick up for the poor and middle class. I grew up poor. I am not trying to get sympathy nor do I want it. The area I am from has trailor parks and million dollar homes. I went to school with rich kids who thought that they were better then me because of the home they lived in. I don't think they were even that bright. Teachers put more interest into them then all of us poor white trailor trash. I remember the things that were said to me and I will never, never, never forget it. I remember my science teacher telling me that the biology field trip is not for kids like you. It was like 3,000 dollars to go to the Florida Keys. Well, that is a hell of a thing to say to 16 yearold student. I thought teachers were to encourage learning. I will always stand up for the poor, middle cl**** American workers, Gays, cause no one else will. I see the same thing in Russia. Call me a sob sister if you will but I am not gonna change.

sfjohns67
23-03-2005, 07:31
Holy sh*t, Goose, I'm gonna have to sue you for identity theft!

uninformed
23-03-2005, 07:41
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Koba, I don't care. US citizens applying for Russian visas should be treated equally to Russian citizens applying for US visas. Perhaps when US citizens begin to lie on their visa applications at the same rate as Russians lie on theirs and when US citizens use visas to permanently move illegally to Russia at the same rate as Russians use them to immigrate ilegally to the US then they should be treated the same.

But I don't really care much. Russia benefits much more from granting visas to foreigners than the US or Canada or Britain do from granting visas to Russians. And if Russia doesn't want foreigners here then so be it. It is mostly Russians who lose out by this practice. Foreign companies create good jobs that pay better and offer more opportunities than most Russian companies..

koba65
23-03-2005, 08:20
Originally posted by Goose0009
I know I am a fanatic but I will always stick up for the poor and middle class. I grew up poor. I am not trying to get sympathy nor do I want it. The area I am from has trailor parks and million dollar homes. I went to school with rich kids who thought that they were better then me because of the home they lived in. I don't think they were even that bright. Teachers put more interest into them then all of us poor white trailor trash. I remember the things that were said to me and I will never, never, never forget it. I remember my science teacher telling me that the biology field trip is not for kids like you. It was like 3,000 dollars to go to the Florida Keys. Well, that is a hell of a thing to say to 16 yearold student. I thought teachers were to encourage learning. I will always stand up for the poor, middle cl**** American workers, Gays, cause no one else will. I see the same thing in Russia. Call me a sob sister if you will but I am not gonna change.

You're not so different than me - except perhaps, our approach to the poor. Having grown up poor myself and knowing how dependent people get on hand-outs (we took none), I like to see people work hard to break out of the cycle of poverty. The current system, while on paper looks "well-meaning" in reality it does nothing but keep people "down on the plantation."

If'n ya want to hear some horror stories try being a poor southern boy who is moved up north (I know, "boo hoo hoo" ;) )

Halyavshik
23-03-2005, 09:43
Originally posted by uninformed
Perhaps when US citizens begin to lie on their visa applications at the same rate as Russians lie on theirs and when US citizens use visas to permanently move illegally to Russia at the same rate as Russians use them to immigrate ilegally to the US then they should be treated the same.

So, you don't know any Americans that don't have a work permit here ? All the Brits you know that have been here 10 years have residency permits ? Never heard of a 'visa run' ? Never had your invitation done by someone who you weren't working for ?

C'mon, visa regulations here are abused DAILY. I'd wager that near 80% of the foreigners on this board are here ILLEGALLY because they either:

1. Do not have a work permit
2. Get invitations through visa agencies
3. Are not registered
4. Live here without residency permits

Pot, meet kettle.

jheisel
23-03-2005, 10:32
Originally posted by Halyavshik
So, you don't know any Americans that don't have a work permit here ? All the Brits you know that have been here 10 years have residency permits ? Never heard of a 'visa run' ? Never had your invitation done by someone who you weren't working for ?

C'mon, visa regulations here are abused DAILY. I'd wager that near 80% of the foreigners on this board are here ILLEGALLY because they either:

1. Do not have a work permit
2. Get invitations through visa agencies
3. Are not registered
4. Live here without residency permits

Pot, meet kettle.

That may be true, Hal, but can you imagine the US continuing to give visas to a Russian citizen who applied for visas annually and did not have a work permit, got an invite through an agency, did not register in the US or have work/residency permits either?

I've got to imagine that this is not high up on Russia's list of priorities, because I can't understand why the government would continue giving someone a visa who is obviously abusing the system (intentionally or unintentionally).

boscoe
23-03-2005, 10:39
The Problem for Russia is that they NEED us expatsÖ sorry POH itís just a factÖ

Halyavshik
23-03-2005, 10:45
Originally posted by jheisel
That may be true, Hal, but can you imagine the US continuing to give visas to a Russian citizen who applied for visas annually and did not have a work permit, got an invite through an agency, did not register in the US or have work/residency permits either?

Well, exactly, Heisel. That's just the point isn't it ? There seems to be a general attitude in this thread that all Americans are law abiding holders of Russian visas, but those sneaky rascally Russians should be subjected to our unflawed and just visa system lest they run off into the wild blue American yonder after landing at Kennedy.

Thing is, there's a veritable f*ck load of visa abuse here by foreigners AND incredible leniency by the Russian government (which, arguably might be the result of ineffeciency, but nevertheless) and a lot of accusations about why Russian visas should be abolished.

It's pretty hypocritical, if you ask me.

koba65
23-03-2005, 11:04
Originally posted by Halyavshik
Well, exactly, Heisel. That's just the point isn't it ? There seems to be a general attitude in this thread that all Americans are law abiding holders of Russian visas, but those sneaky rascally Russians should be subjected to our unflawed and just visa system lest they run off into the wild blue American yonder after landing at Kennedy.

Thing is, there's a veritable f*ck load of visa abuse here by foreigners AND incredible leniency by the Russian government (which, arguably might be the result of ineffeciency, but nevertheless) and a lot of accusations about why Russian visas should be abolished.

It's pretty hypocritical, if you ask me.

You're mixing in business/work visas with tourist visas. If a Russian has a legitimate job/employment in the US they don't go through near as much hassle as foreigners in Russia do.

Halyavshik
23-03-2005, 11:38
Originally posted by koba65
You're mixing in business/work visas with tourist visas. If a Russian has a legitimate job/employment in the US they don't go through near as much hassle as foreigners in Russia do.

Well, I've had amazingly bureaucratic and confusing experiences with US tourist visas as well. Ever waited 4 hours outside the embassy ? Ever try extending one through INS ? Ever try applying for another US visa after that ? How 'bout filing for joint taxes with a Russian spouse who only has a tourist visa ? I still feel the US process is every bit if not more confusing and difficult.

But, my comments we're originally to 'Uninformed' who claimed that Russians lie on their applications. I'd bet my boxers that there are HUNDREDS of people every day receiving Russian tourist visas who come here to work, or should be here on a personal or business visa.

koba65
23-03-2005, 11:47
Originally posted by Halyavshik
Well, I've had amazingly bureaucratic and confusing experiences with US tourist visas as well. Ever waited 4 hours outside the embassy ? Ever try extending one through INS ? Ever try applying for another US visa after that ? How 'bout filing for joint taxes with a Russian spouse who only has a tourist visa ? I still feel the US process is every bit if not more confusing and difficult.

But, my comments we're originally to 'Uninformed' who claimed that Russians lie on their applications. I'd bet my boxers that there are HUNDREDS of people every day receiving Russian tourist visas who come here to work, or should be here on a personal or business visa.

No doubt they do - personally, I wouldn't risk it...

Regarding the US system - yep, sucks and unfortunately it's only the law-abiding Russians who get screwed by the few who play with the system.

jengoing
23-03-2005, 17:27
Last time I met with foreigners being overcharged, was in Belarus. But this is not Russia anymore.

I laughed and laughed and laughed when I read this statement. It happens EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME!


But I guess, US is free to counteract the same way in this case.

I believe there is some saying like, "Two wrongs don't make a right."


Thing is, there's a veritable f*ck load of visa abuse here by foreigners AND incredible leniency by (which, arguably might be the result of ineffeciency, but nevertheless) and a lot of accusations about why Russian visas should be abolished.

Of course there are a lot of people here working illegally, but not because we want to do it, but because we have to. I have worked as a teacher for numerous English schools here who want to have foreign teachers, but are absolutely unwilling to help with the paperwork. Well, what's a girl to do? If the Russians themselves can't sort it out properly, am I supposed to? I certainly wouldn't say I'm abusing the system - it's my Russian students who are demanding me to be here and their schools who aren't demanding a workable system.
The American government is lenient too with millions and millions of workers like Mexicans. Sure customs grabs a few and sends them back, but for the most part they do the work they came to do and are left alone. We need their labor, but that doesn't mean that we are going to open up the border. That would create chaos and major economic issues. Feel free to compare to the situation of Tajiks, Georgians, etc. in Russia, but don't compare to businessmen, English teachers, etc. It's not the same at all. The difference is, in America if a company wants to hire a foreign employee, they get the paperwork done.

preacher of hedonism
28-03-2005, 09:58
Originally posted by jengoing
Of course there are a lot of people here working illegally, but not because we want to do it, but because we have to. I have worked as a teacher for numerous English schools here who want to have foreign teachers, but are absolutely unwilling to help with the paperwork. Well, what's a girl to do? If the Russians themselves can't sort it out properly, am I supposed to? I certainly wouldn't say I'm abusing the system - it's my Russian students who are demanding me to be here and their schools who aren't demanding a workable system.
The American government is lenient too with millions and millions of workers like Mexicans. Sure customs grabs a few and sends them back, but for the most part they do the work they came to do and are left alone. We need their labor, but that doesn't mean that we are going to open up the border. That would create chaos and major economic issues. Feel free to compare to the situation of Tajiks, Georgians, etc. in Russia, but don't compare to businessmen, English teachers, etc. It's not the same at all. The difference is, in America if a company wants to hire a foreign employee, they get the paperwork done. I laughed, and laughed, and laughed when I read this statement. Because you had to?! Trust me, when a Russian company wants you it gets all the paperwork done. I worked in recruitment and placed both expats and people from out of Moscow here. And companies willing to hire them payed for their tickets here (to come for the interview), arranged hotels, visas if needed. When they actually got hired, the company payed them a higher salary to rent an apartment etc. PLeeeeeze, I know how it works, don;t give this crap. By working here illegally you are breaking the law, full stop. And it doesn't matter which country you are from. At least to me. We have a lot of our offenders, we don't need to import them. And please don't try to compare how it works in the US. I don't care about it. It's US's own business, and as a sovereign country it is free to set its own rules, which I will respect once there.
Saying "If the Russians themselves can't sort it out properly, am I supposed to?" makes me laugh. Who are you to judge us on how we sort out things in our own country. You come here, and must abide by the rules. If you don't like them, you are free to leave.

preacher of hedonism
28-03-2005, 10:01
Originally posted by boscoe
The Problem for Russia is that they NEED us expatsÖ sorry POH itís just a factÖ very funny, boscoe. care to elaborate on how we need you guys so badly (nothing personal. you know I don't mean YOU personally:))

Halyavshik
28-03-2005, 10:14
Originally posted by jengoing
Of course there are a lot of people here working illegally, but not because we want to do it, but because we have to. I have worked as a teacher for numerous English schools here who want to have foreign teachers, but are absolutely unwilling to help with the paperwork. Well, what's a girl to do? If the Russians themselves can't sort it out properly, am I supposed to? I certainly wouldn't say I'm abusing the system -

Jengoing, just because you've never delved into the system deep enough to understand it, doesn't mean you have to abuse it. It may be easier to do so, but I suspect that's the same with any system.

Again, if you think it's easy getting extensions of a tourist visa in the US, you're pretty mistaken. You COULD ignore the rules, but you'll NEVER again get a visa to go back.

I know several firms, large and small that take the time to properly invite and register their foreign employees. You don't HAVE to abuse the system.

preacher of hedonism
28-03-2005, 10:36
that said, I do believe we need to have more flexible immigration laws to attract cheaper labor, especially from Ukraine and Belarus.

koba65
29-03-2005, 17:43
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
that said, I do believe we need to have more flexible immigration laws to attract cheaper labor, especially from Ukraine and Belarus.

This has GOT to be a wind up? How much cheaper does the labor have to be? Belomorskyj Kanal cheap?

J.D.
29-03-2005, 21:04
A Russian friend of mine, who is a bit bigoted, always complains about the Ukrainians in Russia. But when she had her office remodeled she hired Ukrainians to do it because they were cheaper.

preacher of hedonism
04-04-2005, 10:25
Originally posted by koba65
This has GOT to be a wind up? How much cheaper does the labor have to be? Belomorskyj Kanal cheap? cheaper than that! i still need to remont my apartment :)

koba65
04-04-2005, 15:20
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
cheaper than that! i still need to remont my apartment :)


Ah yes, remont - you get what you pay for......:D

surfsky
04-04-2005, 17:08
Word, US gives huge AID to Russia. In return they seized Yukos which allot of individual American investers legally put their money in with full aknowledgement by the Russia Government. Thes people trusted the system. Than the Russians changed the rules and seized public assets to pay a private emloyees debt.

As for Visas, stop coming to our country to be pimps and prostitutes and drug dealers. In the North West USA and Alaska every year you hear about a Russian gang enterprise being broke up.

VISA enforcement sucks in the US because Police are not allowed to walk around in the US and stop people for no reason and ask for a passport. No matter how bad their english is. We have to wait till they actually commit a crime.

monkey-girl
04-04-2005, 17:52
Originally posted by surfsky
As for Visas, stop coming to our country to be pimps and prostitutes and drug dealers. In the North West USA and Alaska every year you hear about a Russian gang enterprise being broke up.

I'm sure all mentioned categories of people have immediately taken your appleal into consideration :D

DJ Biscuit
04-04-2005, 18:04
Originally posted by surfsky
Word, US gives huge AID to Russia. In return they seized Yukos which allot of individual American investers legally put their money in with full aknowledgement by the Russia Government. Thes people trusted the system. Than the Russians changed the rules and seized public assets to pay a private emloyees debt.

As for Visas, stop coming to our country to be pimps and prostitutes and drug dealers. In the North West USA and Alaska every year you hear about a Russian gang enterprise being broke up.

VISA enforcement sucks in the US because Police are not allowed to walk around in the US and stop people for no reason and ask for a passport. No matter how bad their english is. We have to wait till they actually commit a crime.

1. Stop getting visas? Your profile says you are in Moscow, perhaps you should practice what you preach and head off home.

No matter how bad their English is? I read your post three times and I have to be honest and say it is clear English is not your first language.

koba65
04-04-2005, 19:41
Originally posted by DJ Biscuit
No matter how bad their English is? I read your post three times and I have to be honest and say it is clear English is not your first language.

I doesn't no what you or talkin' about. His english seams Fine to me.

preacher of hedonism
05-04-2005, 09:58
"Thes people trusted the system" Didn't your mom tell you to never trust the system. I'll always f*** you.

Vic07
06-04-2005, 01:11
To be honest, I don't see how my taxpayer money is being 'wasted' by the individual interviews for U.S. citizens. It is the U.S. citizens that have to waste their money to get to the consulate for this interview. (Much like our citizens to get to the U.S. consulate for the interview...see where I am getting with this?)

To the person that said that we need expats - Thank you very much, but...no thank you. I would rather see the salary go to a Russian citizen. (There are plenty of qualified Russian Citizens that have recieved 'western' education that are more than willing to get a job here, and who are just as qualified as foreigners)

I agree, we do need more cheap labour. Russians simply don't want to go take up low paying jobs that require hard work. Sad truth. We will always need asians/ukranians/moldovans to sweep the streets and do the dirty work for us. (Much like the Mexicans in the U.S.) Unfortunately (just like in the U.S.) these sources of 'cheap labour' have a habit of resorting to crime to recieve an additional salary. This is why I think we should require visas for ALL Ukranian citizens aswell as citizens from the Asian CIS republics. (Abkhazia EXCLUDED) As we all know, they do not fear deportation, for them it is just a trip home to see their families. They come home, drink some tea, talk to their loved ones and friends after which they are back on the first train back to Russia with a false ID. We need to set up interviews for these nice guys.

I do agree that the registation thing is absolutely useless and I hope it will be phased out in the near future.

Vic

Vic07
06-04-2005, 16:53
One more thing:
I know that many people here do not like the different fares for foreigners/russians. But look at it from another perspective:
(This only applies for Museums and other state operated organisations...it does not excuse the private ones)
As you may have guessed, the Museums are funded by the federal or the local governments, now the federal or local government allocates the money to these organisations from their budget, and a large part of their budget comes from Taxpayer money.
So, this is why I think we should keep the fares as they are. Russian citizens pay taxes and deserve a right to enter a museum in their own country for less than some foreigner who does not pay income tax in the RF. That is my view. I would not mind it if in the U.S. they said that Americans pay $10 to enter the Smithonian and foreigners pay $14, that is fair.
However, if lets say the Smithonian would say: Americans and French citizens pay $10 while other foreigners pay $14 - that would be NOT fair, you get where I am going?
Vic

koba65
06-04-2005, 19:11
Originally posted by Vic07
One more thing:
I know that many people here do not like the different fares for foreigners/russians. But look at it from another perspective:
(This only applies for Museums and other state operated organisations...it does not excuse the private ones)
As you may have guessed, the Museums are funded by the federal or the local governments, now the federal or local government allocates the money to these organisations from their budget, and a large part of their budget comes from Taxpayer money.
So, this is why I think we should keep the fares as they are. Russian citizens pay taxes and deserve a right to enter a museum in their own country for less than some foreigner who does not pay income tax in the RF. That is my view. I would not mind it if in the U.S. they said that Americans pay $10 to enter the Smithonian and foreigners pay $14, that is fair.
However, if lets say the Smithonian would say: Americans and French citizens pay $10 while other foreigners pay $14 - that would be NOT fair, you get where I am going?
Vic

I understand where you are going , but you're missing the point. Systems which charge a tourist one price and a local another do more to damage tourism in the long run. The price-gouging (and corrupt bribe-seeking policemen) cause the people to go home, not return, and tell their friends not to bother to come to Russia. This, combined with the inconsistent tourist visa system, costs Russia tons of money - money lost at hotels, restaraunts, airlines, and other service industries.

Also, before you make statements about the museum system supported by taxes in Russia you should do a little research about the amount of grants provided to the museums by foreign countries, organizations, and individuals. Perhaps citizens from France, Germany, UK, the US, Canada, etc., should get a discount because of the aid they've provided to the museums????

BTW - the Smithsonian is free.

koba65
06-04-2005, 19:14
Originally posted by Vic07
To be honest, I don't see how my taxpayer money is being 'wasted' by the individual interviews for U.S. citizens. It is the U.S. citizens that have to waste their money to get to the consulate for this interview. (Much like our citizens to get to the U.S. consulate for the interview...see where I am getting with this?)

To the person that said that we need expats - Thank you very much, but...no thank you. I would rather see the salary go to a Russian citizen. (There are plenty of qualified Russian Citizens that have recieved 'western' education that are more than willing to get a job here, and who are just as qualified as foreigners)

I agree, we do need more cheap labour. Russians simply don't want to go take up low paying jobs that require hard work. Sad truth. We will always need asians/ukranians/moldovans to sweep the streets and do the dirty work for us. (Much like the Mexicans in the U.S.) Unfortunately (just like in the U.S.) these sources of 'cheap labour' have a habit of resorting to crime to recieve an additional salary. This is why I think we should require visas for ALL Ukranian citizens aswell as citizens from the Asian CIS republics. (Abkhazia EXCLUDED) As we all know, they do not fear deportation, for them it is just a trip home to see their families. They come home, drink some tea, talk to their loved ones and friends after which they are back on the first train back to Russia with a false ID. We need to set up interviews for these nice guys.

I do agree that the registation thing is absolutely useless and I hope it will be phased out in the near future.

Vic

But, unfortunately you DO need expats - until such a time that Russia is able to create a situation in which its own industries can operate with the same business acumin and expertise that expats bring. You are correct, there are plenty of educated underemployed Russians, however, ask yourself which companies are paying Russians better salaries and providing better working conditions...

koba65
06-04-2005, 19:20
Originally posted by Vic07
I agree, we do need more cheap labour. Russians simply don't want to go take up low paying jobs that require hard work. Sad truth. We will always need asians/ukranians/moldovans to sweep the streets and do the dirty work for us. (Much like the Mexicans in the U.S.) Unfortunately (just like in the U.S.) these sources of 'cheap labour' have a habit of resorting to crime to recieve an additional salary. This is why I think we should require visas for ALL Ukranian citizens aswell as citizens from the Asian CIS republics. (Abkhazia EXCLUDED) As we all know, they do not fear deportation, for them it is just a trip home to see their families. They come home, drink some tea, talk to their loved ones and friends after which they are back on the first train back to Russia with a false ID. We need to set up interviews for these nice guys.

Vic

Vik,
Here's the difference, if the Mexicans enter the US and become legal citizens, or at least legal green card holders then they have the opportunity to use the American system in order to work their way out of the "dirty work." Not an easy road, but it's one that is traveled frequently by immigrants (legal, and even illegal) and their offspring. Our history is filled with stories of people making this transition (it'd be nice if there were even more stories). However, I seriously doubt the same would be possible in Russia - you'll continue to treat every non-ethnic Russian as a second class citizen - they'll continue to not give a damn about ripping you off. It's a vicious cycle, breakable only by mutual respect.

preacher of hedonism
07-04-2005, 09:38
Originally posted by koba65
Vik,
Here's the difference, if the Mexicans enter the US and become legal citizens, or at least legal green card holders then they have the opportunity to use the American system in order to work their way out of the "dirty work." Not an easy road, but it's one that is traveled frequently by immigrants (legal, and even illegal) and their offspring. Our history is filled with stories of people making this transition (it'd be nice if there were even more stories). However, I seriously doubt the same would be possible in Russia - you'll continue to treat every non-ethnic Russian as a second class citizen - they'll continue to not give a damn about ripping you off. It's a vicious cycle, breakable only by mutual respect. I am a non-ethnic Russian. Nobody treats me like a second class citizen, apart from the police checking my papers more often than usual, perhaps (which I don't mind at all).
That said, the US is probably the most immigrant-friendly nation in the world.

preacher of hedonism
07-04-2005, 09:43
Originally posted by koba65
But, unfortunately you DO need expats - until such a time that Russia is able to create a situation in which its own industries can operate with the same business acumin and expertise that expats bring. You are correct, there are plenty of educated underemployed Russians, however, ask yourself which companies are paying Russians better salaries and providing better working conditions... We only need those expats who possess unique skills, expertise or bring in the technology. Last thing we need is tons of life-wasters coming here for freebies, and then heralding in every corner how unique they are just because they are from the WEST.

jheisel
07-04-2005, 10:55
Originally posted by Vic07
One more thing:
I know that many people here do not like the different fares for foreigners/russians. But look at it from another perspective:
(This only applies for Museums and other state operated organisations...it does not excuse the private ones)
As you may have guessed, the Museums are funded by the federal or the local governments, now the federal or local government allocates the money to these organisations from their budget, and a large part of their budget comes from Taxpayer money.
So, this is why I think we should keep the fares as they are. Russian citizens pay taxes and deserve a right to enter a museum in their own country for less than some foreigner who does not pay income tax in the RF. That is my view. I would not mind it if in the U.S. they said that Americans pay $10 to enter the Smithonian and foreigners pay $14, that is fair.
However, if lets say the Smithonian would say: Americans and French citizens pay $10 while other foreigners pay $14 - that would be NOT fair, you get where I am going?
Vic

I am an American and I pay taxes in Russia, probably more than a lot of Russians. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation. So should I be able to go into museums at the Russian price?

koba65
07-04-2005, 12:25
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
We only need those expats who possess unique skills, expertise or bring in the technology. Last thing we need is tons of life-wasters coming here for freebies, and then heralding in every corner how unique they are just because they are from the WEST.

How many from the West are coming here for the freebies? Hmm, gee, I wonder how "free" things are - I pay 10X more for my apartment than a native, I put a lot of money into the local economy, my organization provides plenty of funds to our Russian counterparts to enable them to operate. Plus, I have yet to meet one Brit, German, Italian, Frenchman, American, Canadian, Belgian, Swede, Swiss, Norwegian, Finn, Dutchman, etc., who is taking a free ride in Russia.

Your position sounds like a few of my countrymen who lament immigrants (not expats - there's a difference) who they feel are coming into the States to freeload.

koba65
07-04-2005, 12:27
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
I am a non-ethnic Russian. Nobody treats me like a second class citizen, apart from the police checking my papers more often than usual, perhaps (which I don't mind at all).
That said, the US is probably the most immigrant-friendly nation in the world.

I'd be willing to bet some of your ethnic Russian acquaintances and colleagues say "on ne nash" when you're not around.....

preacher of hedonism
07-04-2005, 12:52
Originally posted by koba65
I'd be willing to bet some of your ethnic Russian acquaintances and colleagues say "on ne nash" when you're not around..... That's possible, although I wouldn't bet on that. But at the end of the day, I couldn't care less. I'm too successful to be embarrassed :)

re freebies. Ever been to the Boar House? It's filled with these kind of people who have drunk their brains away. One of the last times I was there I was approached by a drunk American who after 1 minute of knowing me offered to grab "a real business opportunity" where I can be his partner and make lots of money.

Ned Kelly
07-04-2005, 13:01
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
I was approached by a drunk who after 1 minute of knowing me offered to grab "a real business opportunity" where I can be his partner and make lots of money.

did he tell you he went under the handle random on expat.ru?

preacher of hedonism
07-04-2005, 13:03
and I don't think we really need that many expat managers working here. I've even met English sales managers who spoke no Russian! As said before, there are plenty of qualified Russians to fill the jobs, it's just the prejudice of the multinationals against which runs ahead of them. We need some real professionals who can contribute to the economy with their skills. But even those should go with time, once Russians master them

koba65
07-04-2005, 13:03
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
That's possible, although I wouldn't bet on that. But at the end of the day, I couldn't care less. I'm too successful to be embarrassed :)

re freebies. Ever been to the Boar House? It's filled with these kind of people who have drunk their brains away. One of the last times I was there I was approached by a drunk American who after 1 minute of knowing me offered to grab "a real business opportunity" where I can be his partner and make lots of money.

Sure I've been to Chesters, BH, whatever you want to call it. Don't go often because of what you described. However, I'd be wary of making judgments based on the drunken statements of an expat. I get the same "offers" from drunken Russians upon them learning I'm American. Kakaya raznitsa?

Plus, those "drunks" are still sinking money into the economy - I don't think you'll find people drinking for free in the BH unless their a hooker having their drinks paid for by, um, hmm, expats? ;)

preacher of hedonism
07-04-2005, 13:04
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
did he tell you he went under the handle random on expat.ru? I had a feeling, but wasn't sure... Random... oh my...

koba65
07-04-2005, 13:07
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
and I don't think we really need that many expat managers working here. I've even met English sales managers who spoke no Russian! As said before, there are plenty of qualified Russians to fill the jobs, it's just the prejudice of the multinationals against which runs ahead of them. We need some real professionals who can contribute to the economy with their skills. But even those should go with time, once Russians master them

I agree that expat managers should be training Russians to fill their positions - saves the multinationals tons of money on cheap labor. But, their have been some problems when Russians were allowed to take over management positions.... Personally, I wouldn't send anyone to Russia to run any project who did not have a basic understanding of the Russian language, people, and culture, but that's just me.... ;)

preacher of hedonism
07-04-2005, 13:08
Originally posted by koba65
Sure I've been to Chesters, BH, whatever you want to call it. Don't go often because of what you described. However, I'd be wary of making judgments based on the drunken statements of an expat. I get the same "offers" from drunken Russians upon them learning I'm American. Kakaya raznitsa?

Plus, those "drunks" are still sinking money into the economy - I don't think you'll find people drinking for free in the BH unless their a hooker having their drinks paid for by, um, hmm, expats? ;) Of course you can't. I just wanted to make a point that such people exist and do come here for whatever reason.

And I'd happily refuse this meager money their bring in for the pleasure of not seeing them at all, anywhere.

preacher of hedonism
07-04-2005, 13:11
Originally posted by koba65
I agree that expat managers should be training Russians to fill their positions - saves the multinationals tons of money on cheap labor. But, their have been some problems when Russians were allowed to take over management positions.... Personally, I wouldn't send anyone to Russia to run any project who did not have a basic understanding of the Russian language, people, and culture, but that's just me.... ;) Sure there 've been some problems but you can't extrapolate that on the whole nation? This is not politically correct. Maybe you (meaning multinationals) should spend more time and money on exec. recruitment here instead?

Ghost
07-04-2005, 13:41
I don't know whose point I'm proving here or if I'm adding to the discussion at all. If not, I apologize.

I was sent to Moscow as the GM for a US based FMCG company (large one) and my goal was simple:

Fix the disaster the business had become under a Russian GM, (after management terminated him with extreme prejudice), get the business back on track, and higher a Russified or Russian GM again to transition the business over to.

That being said, I'll tell you right now that I'm hesitant in bringing a Russian GM in. Not because Russia has no experienced managers, but because the Russian culture in business is not as "westernized" as it needs to be to run a successful FMCG company. Marketing, sales, human resources, fair play, etc. All of these things are growing in Russia, but not yet mature.

As they grow and get more mature, cash-pats like me will be in less of a demand. But it's not there yet.

Oh sure, you can point to GM types like the excellent manager over at Beeline, but these cases are few and faw between. Hopefully the future will see that changing.

preacher of hedonism
07-04-2005, 13:50
well, that was my point. get guys like you over. get russian managers trained and here you go.

Vic07
07-04-2005, 22:53
Regarding Museums - I guess that you could also allow foreigners with Residence permits to also enter at Russian Price. (They have this in some places in Sankt Peterburg). I don't care who else helps the Museums, most money comes from the state, the rest does not come from other states, it comes from companies (like Ruhrgas of Germany that funded the Amber Room in Puskin allthough it is because of a sense of guilt that Germans DESTROYED it in the first place, so they are making it fair) so no, citizens should not, company employees can, but that will never happen and be just rediculous.

Regarding tourism - I don't know about bad impressions, we hosted many foreigners that we knew personally from Canada, The Republic of South Africa, the USA, and Germany, they ALL liked it. The Canadian guy even admitted that he felt safer here than in Canada (I can completely understand him after living there myself) because the people HERE (people we don't know, just met on the street) are very friendly. When we went to Sankt Petersburg, it was pouring rain and when we were standing in several ques, Russians would give us umbrellas (if they had two) and tried to start a conversation with us or offer us something to eat (I spoke only english and acted like a foreigner when I was with him...so I doubt people would notice that I was Russian). The police taking bribes is bull. Advice: HAVE ALL YOUR DOCUMENTS DONE PROPERLY! If your documents are in order, they have a quick glance at them and thats it! Also, I do not mind them checking my documents, neither should you.

Regarding Expats - There are indeed some positions that at the moment can be filled only by expats (particularly ones that have been in a certain field for over 20 years and have loads of experience) However, there are many Russians with 'western' diplomas and 'western' ecperience (of working in a western company in the west for more than 5 years) that want to immigrate back to Russia, but they are having a harder time getting a job than foreigners with the same qualification! That is rediculous!

Regarding Cheap Labour - You are right. Personally, I do not have anything against Russians of other nationalities. I have friends who are Chechen, Ossetian, Khazakh and chineese to name a few, I think of them as equals. Some people don't share my view. This also exsists in other countries, the United states and Canada to name a few, but to a lesser extent. Unfortunately, this will somewhat slow down on the 'social ladder of the immigrant', but that has nothing to do with them ripping off Russians to get 'revenge'. Most of them don't seek 'revenge' and treat Russians very well (after all, they did come to OUR country and they understand that they ARE guests) trust me on this one...look on the map at where Omsk is. There is a steady flow of Khazakhs into Omsk, the ones that know that they are guests become sucessfull, the ones that can't grasp this end up in the same position that they came in (dirt poor, sweeping streets) I don't know what they talk about behind our backs, if they talk bad, they dishonour themselves and not us, I only care about how they treat ME in person.

Vic

koba65
08-04-2005, 00:00
Vic,
Tell these guys they're not helping:
"The State Hermitage Museum, one of the largest in the world, has Friends all over the globe who support it. It is with the help of the Hermitage Friends' organizations in Russia, United States of America, Canada and the Netherlands that many of the Hermitage's development projects have become a reality.


Hermitage Friends in the Netherlands Foundation
Founded in 1994 in Amsterdam with Dr. Ernst Veen (director of the Nieuwe Kerk museum) as the chairman, the Hermitage Friends in the Netherlands Foundation organize numerous activities in support of the Hermitage. Its biggest fundraising campaigns have been the New Roof and Lighting for the Rembrandt Room (1998) and New Roof and Lighting for the Dutch Masters (2000). These projects, worth 1 million US dollars each, enabled the Hermitage to repair the roofs over the Rembrandt Gallery and the Dutch Masters Galleries as well as to restore the galleries themselves and install new lighting equipment.

The Foundation Hermitage Friends in the Netherlands:
Postbus 11676, 1001 GR Amsterdam
Spui 1C, 1012 WX Amsterdam
Netherlands
Tel.: (31) 20 423 68 37
Fax: (31) 20 423 68 36
E-mail: info@hermitage.nl
www.hermitage.nl

The American Friends of the State Hermitage Museum, Inc.
Founded in 1995, to sponsor public education and fundraising programs in the United States in support of the Hermitage museum: Hermitage Thursdays (meetings with Hermitage curators), an annual lecture given by Professor Piotrovsky in New York, benefit dinners and receptions, trips to St. Petersburg featuring the Monday in the Hermitage special program in the museum. The money raised goes to the Hermitage's development projects (equipment for the photographic laboratory, restoration of the rooms in the General Staff building, painting restoration projects).

The American Friends of the State Hermitage Museum:
26 Broadway, Suite 956
New York, NY 10004-1717
Tel.: (212) 785 94 45
Fax: (212) 785 67 80
E-mail: info@hermitagemuseumfriends.org
www.hermitagemuseumfriends.org

Canadian Friends of the Hermitage Museum
The State Hermitage Museum Foundation of Canada, Inc.
Organized in Canada in 1997. The major objective of the Foundation is fundraising for the projects aimed at improving the standard of the museum's security and conditions for the preservation of its collections. The first large-scale project was the installation of protective film on the windows of the Hermitage. The Canadian Friends of the Hermitage Museum association was established by the Canadian Foundation. Its activities focus on educational programs for children, lectures and seminars in Canadian schools and universities, exchange programs for Canadian and Russian students and for specialists from the Hermitage and Canadian museums.
A new fundraising campaign aimed at providing a new computer Collection Inventory Project is being prepared both by the Foundation and the Friends in Canada for the Hermitage Museum.

The State Hermitage Museum Foundation of Canada
P.O. Box 539, Station B
Ottawa, Canada K1P 5P6
Tel.: (613) 489-0794
Fax: (613) 489-0835
E-mail: ktrbmgt@attglobal.net
www.HermitageMuseum.ca

Canadian Friends of the Hermitage
1500 Bank Street, Suite 302,
Ottawa, Ontario
K1H 1B8
Telephone: (613) 236-1116
Fax: (613) 236-6570
e-mail: friends@hermitagemuseum.ca
website: www.friendsofhermitagemuseum.ca

Toronto Chapter
50 Baldwin Street
Toronto, ON M5T 1L4
Tel.: (416) 979 09 32
Fax: (416) 348 04 38
E-mail: toronto@hermitagemuseum.ca
www.HermitageMuseum.ca

Montreal Chapter
c/o The Montreal Museum of Fine Arts
P.O. Box 3000, Station H
Montreal, QC H3G 2T9
Tel.: (514) 288 18 96
E-mail: montreal@hermitagemuseum.ca
www.HermitageMuseum.ca"
That's just a few of the international aid societies that help various Russian museums, archives, foundations, galleries, etc. I can list more if you desire. I guess all that "State" money just isn't cutting the mustard.

Regarding cops and bribes:
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7068-6.cfm

or this one:
"Moscow survey: police greatest threat to foreigners
29 April 2003 (Moscow Times 15.4.03)
The first of four surveys, commissioned by the Moscow local authority in order to gauge the city's image abroad, has found that foreigners living in Russia consider the police the greatest threat to their personal safety.
Forty foreigners, of different ethnic origin, were asked how safe they felt in Moscow. Respondents claimed to be frequently subjected to document checks by bribe-hungry police officers, who did not even bother to hide the fact that they were corrupt. A claim by police chief Vladimir Pronin that the Moscow police are now examining complaints of corruption more thoroughly, and whole squads of officers have been forbidden from checking documents without cause, has been met with cynicism by police critics. Another issue cited by those surveyed was racial violence, and the lack of police response. An Algerian diplomat says that when he was surrounded by a jeering crowd of teenagers, nobody, including the police, came to his aid."

I could list hundreds of these stories - "documents in order" don't have anything to do with it. FYI, I've NEVER paid a bribe...

Regarding Expats/Repats: If the Russians who immigrated want to return then they should return. Why do you think they want to wait to return as an "expat"?? Hmmm, bigger salary, foreign passport. I know a few "repats" who have no desire to give up their American citizenship and have been able to use their qualifications combined with their native Russian skills to do quite well. But, they'll be the last ones to give up their spot to a "Russian manager."

koba65
08-04-2005, 00:03
Vic,

Here's what tourists perceive after visiting Russia (very unfortunate that a few bad apples spoil it for the country):

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Europe/Russia/Gorod_Moskva/Moscow-592480/Warnings_or_Dangers-Moscow-Local_police_Documents-BR-1.html

koba65
08-04-2005, 00:08
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Sure there 've been some problems but you can't extrapolate that on the whole nation? This is not politically correct. Maybe you (meaning multinationals) should spend more time and money on exec. recruitment here instead?

Not politically correct? Funny coming from a guy who said that peasants should do the fighting because he was too smart and valuable to be wasted muddying his hands on such matters.

Ignoring the problems don't make them go away. Multinationals (and no, I'm not one) should spend more time on exec. recruitment, but it takes a lot of time to instill a Western business mentality on a people who lived under the yoke of communism. Perhaps it's not "proper" that a Western business mentality should be instilled, but that's just the reality of the business world. Conform, come up with a better way, or fade away.

Goose0009
08-04-2005, 00:35
this is getting off the subject but O well. The problem in Russia will always be there. I don't see corruption, kickbacks and bribes ever going away enough to make a difference. I just don't see wealthy Russians every giving a rats a#s about anything outside of Moscow or St. Petersburg. I think Pride will always keep Russia from reaching its potential. Russia a country that can't be touched by any other with Natural Resources. I looked at forbes fortune 500. How Many Billionares in Russia? There was so many I lost count. Hmmm, Billionares, huge Resources, New Russians Driving the Fuel consuming Cars, Fighting a war in Chechney for the last 10 years, and all the while Russians outside of Moscow struggle everyday on $300 dollars a month. I don't think it will change. I think its Russian mentality. It has nothing to do with training or Expats or western education. It has to come from within. Its not fair to compare Russia to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, or Canada, but usually in cold climate countries the people stick together. I don't see it in Russia.

jheisel
08-04-2005, 00:51
Vic, your arguments are bunk. Sorry, buddy. If it wasn't 1AM maybe I'd bother writing more, but sleeping sounds much more interesting than having an argument with you.

koba65
08-04-2005, 02:10
Originally posted by Goose0009
this is getting off the subject but O well. The problem in Russia will always be there. I don't see corruption, kickbacks and bribes ever going away enough to make a difference. I just don't see wealthy Russians every giving a rats a#s about anything outside of Moscow or St. Petersburg. I think Pride will always keep Russia from reaching its potential. Russia a country that can't be touched by any other with Natural Resources. I looked at forbes fortune 500. How Many Billionares in Russia? There was so many I lost count. Hmmm, Billionares, huge Resources, New Russians Driving the Fuel consuming Cars, Fighting a war in Chechney for the last 10 years, and all the while Russians outside of Moscow struggle everyday on $300 dollars a month. I don't think it will change. I think its Russian mentality. It has nothing to do with training or Expats or western education. It has to come from within. Its not fair to compare Russia to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, or Canada, but usually in cold climate countries the people stick together. I don't see it in Russia.

Well put.

preacher of hedonism
08-04-2005, 09:52
Originally posted by koba65
Perhaps it's not "proper" that a Western business mentality should be instilled, but that's just the reality of the business world. Conform, come up with a better way, or fade away. The reality of business is that multinationals do not come here for charity. They make money here, some make a lot. Like i guess, Nestle has a $1bn. turnover here, some cigarette companies make even more. Let alone oil giants... For Oriflame Russia is the core maket in the world. So THEY should adapt their innovative business approaches to our mentality, and not the other way round. If they want to go on making money in this country, of course.

preacher of hedonism
08-04-2005, 09:57
Originally posted by Goose0009
this is getting off the subject but O well. The problem in Russia will always be there. I don't see corruption, kickbacks and bribes ever going away enough to make a difference. I just don't see wealthy Russians every giving a rats a#s about anything outside of Moscow or St. Petersburg. I think Pride will always keep Russia from reaching its potential. Russia a country that can't be touched by any other with Natural Resources. I looked at forbes fortune 500. How Many Billionares in Russia? There was so many I lost count. Hmmm, Billionares, huge Resources, New Russians Driving the Fuel consuming Cars, Fighting a war in Chechney for the last 10 years, and all the while Russians outside of Moscow struggle everyday on $300 dollars a month. I don't think it will change. I think its Russian mentality. It has nothing to do with training or Expats or western education. It has to come from within. Its not fair to compare Russia to Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, or Canada, but usually in cold climate countries the people stick together. I don't see it in Russia. Well said. $300 is not that bad by the way considering how cheaper most things in the regions are. I remember getting $200 a month and considering myself lucky.
No Russia will never be like Norway, and I'm not sure we even want to be like that. But I see the country on the right track (more or less), so I'm rather optimistic.

J.D.
08-04-2005, 10:02
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
The reality of business is that multinationals do not come here for charity. They make money here, .

So they are here to make money and they know how to do it, having lots of experience and all. So don't ya figure that they are applying their tried and true methods when it comes to marketing and hiring people?

preacher of hedonism
08-04-2005, 10:08
I'm sure they do! But the thing is that in Russia they must hire Russians! If they can prove that some job requires unique skills which Russians do not possess, fair enough. But then the person they bring in must train a Russian substitute to replace him within a reasonable period of time, so that then this Russian guy would apply their tried and true methods and it comes to marketing and hiring people.

J.D.
08-04-2005, 10:22
"must"??

Can you define that please

preacher of hedonism
08-04-2005, 10:30
I'd make it a law. Hire Russians or prove that no Russian can do the job

J.D.
08-04-2005, 10:32
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
I'd


Can you elaborate on that?

koba65
08-04-2005, 10:41
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
Well said. $300 is not that bad by the way considering how cheaper most things in the regions are. I remember getting $200 a month and considering myself lucky.
No Russia will never be like Norway, and I'm not sure we even want to be like that. But I see the country on the right track (more or less), so I'm rather optimistic.

$300 would be not bad in the regions if that was what the average person made. Alas, it is not so. Try around $100 or less. That's if they're lucky to have a job. All of those Russian companies have been good about rebuilding the infrastructure and providing jobs - oh, wait, nope, they've been good about sinking their money into football clubs and other ventures - the people be damned.

preacher of hedonism
08-04-2005, 10:43
Originally posted by J.D.
Can you elaborate on that? If I could I would. And if there is such a law, I'd support it

preacher of hedonism
08-04-2005, 10:48
Originally posted by koba65
$300 would be not bad in the regions if that was what the average person made. Alas, it is not so. Try around $100 or less. That's if they're lucky to have a job. All of those Russian companies have been good about rebuilding the infrastructure and providing jobs - oh, wait, nope, they've been good about sinking their money into football clubs and other ventures - the people be damned. the average Russian salary is over 7000 rubles now. And it differs from region to region. I've been to Samara, Saratov, Volgograd, Chelyabinsk, Archangelsk and they seemed pretty vibrant to me. The salary there is definitely way over 7000.
Re: companies. It's a private business, unless the company has a government stake in it or government contracts. But in this field, I would like to see more government control, to be honest with you.

koba65
08-04-2005, 12:21
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
the average Russian salary is over 7000 rubles now. And it differs from region to region. I've been to Samara, Saratov, Volgograd, Chelyabinsk, Archangelsk and they seemed pretty vibrant to me. The salary there is definitely way over 7000.
Re: companies. It's a private business, unless the company has a government stake in it or government contracts. But in this field, I would like to see more government control, to be honest with you.

What exactly did you see in those cities. I've been to St. Pete, Petrozavodsk, Tver, Nizhnij Tagil, Chelyabinsk, Shuchye, Kurgan, Ekaterinburg, Vladivostok, Kursk, Kostroma, Kaluga, Smolensk, Gagarin, Bryansk, Berezniki, Perm, Vladimir, Klin, Chumlyak, Vishynyj Volochek, etc. etc. etc. etc., and I don't see the "vibrancy" transferring into better living conditions and wages for the common folk. It's the same story - local "businessmen" get rich and don't pass on the profits to their workers - the workers receive pittance for wages. You obviously probably know the addage about those who do not know history are destined to repeat the mistakes of the past??

Governments shouldn't have to step in, it's sad when they have to - companies should learn that by investing in the communities in which they are located translates into a better happier workforce, which translates into better quality production and larger profit margins.

Vic07
08-04-2005, 17:32
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
I'm sure they do! But the thing is that in Russia they must hire Russians! If they can prove that some job requires unique skills which Russians do not possess, fair enough. But then the person they bring in must train a Russian substitute to replace him within a reasonable period of time, so that then this Russian guy would apply their tried and true methods and it comes to marketing and hiring people.
You are 100% correct! Make it a law! Give either tax breaks for companies that do (like they do in China) or just REQUIRE a certain percentage of Russians on every level of a company, like in the Republic of South Africa.

Russians ARE returning to Russia from Canada and the U.S. I am not saying that them MUST give up their dual passports! But when they come back here, the thing is that they do not come as 'expats', they live and work here as Russian citizens. This is increasing in the last 3 years, I want it to stay on that track!

Goose - PLEASE wake up, the war in Chechnya is over...and has been for several years already. Right there has discredited you.

Goose0009
08-04-2005, 17:51
Goose - PLEASE wake up, the war in Chechnya is over...and has been for several years already. Right there has discredited you. [/B][/QUOTE] HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You mean there are no Young conscripts in Chechnya. OK once again Young Russian Business men with their heads in the Clouds living the good life while others struggle to survive everyday. Im sure rich kids in Moscow go to chechnya. The war in Chechnya will never be over as long as Russia has Troops there.

surfsky
08-04-2005, 20:18
Originally posted by J.D.
I think I understand where he's coming from.
My father is a very important senator. How can you expect him to concentrate on his work and do a good job for his country if he is worring about his son, me, getting killed in some stupid war.

not to attack you personally but if your "Dad" voted for the war, than he should be willing to give his best to the fight. Maybe if you came back injured or he worried about you getting body armor....he would have made sure guys like me got the funding we need all the time, or do more to help all injured vets. Eisenhower's son was in the Korean War when he was President. The Kennedy's went to war. Fact of the matter I have seen one to many Congressmen show up and say "soldiers your doing a great job" and right about the time you say- "what we need is-" he hops on his helicopter and flies away.

koba65
08-04-2005, 20:27
Originally posted by Vic07
You are 100% correct! Make it a law! Give either tax breaks for companies that do (like they do in China) or just REQUIRE a certain percentage of Russians on every level of a company, like in the Republic of South Africa.

Russians ARE returning to Russia from Canada and the U.S. I am not saying that them MUST give up their dual passports! But when they come back here, the thing is that they do not come as 'expats', they live and work here as Russian citizens. This is increasing in the last 3 years, I want it to stay on that track!

Goose - PLEASE wake up, the war in Chechnya is over...and has been for several years already. Right there has discredited you.

The only Russians I know who have returned to Russia from Canada and the U.S. work for Western businesses and retain Canadian and US passports - they were transferred here by the companies to use their knowledge of the region. And, they make a helluva lot more than they would if they re-immigrated and got a job as a Russian citizen. You're in denial.

Chechnya war is over? For several years? What planet do you live on? Maybe you should try watching some news broadcasts that aren't on ORT.

J.D.
08-04-2005, 20:48
Originally posted by surfsky
not to attack you personally but if your "Dad" voted for the war, than he should be willing to give his best to the fight. Maybe if you came back injured or he worried about you getting body armor....he would have made sure guys like me got the funding we need all the time, or do more to help all injured vets. Eisenhower's son was in the Korean War when he was President. The Kennedy's went to war. Fact of the matter I have seen one to many Congressmen show up and say "soldiers your doing a great job" and right about the time you say- "what we need is-" he hops on his helicopter and flies away.

not to attack you personally but you,re making us Americans look stupid. Or at least gullible.

If you can find a dictionary look up 'sarcasm'.

surfsky
08-04-2005, 22:31
Originally posted by J.D.
not to attack you personally but you,re making us Americans look stupid. Or at least gullible.

If you can find a dictionary look up 'sarcasm'.

Ya I'm sarcatic but I earned it.

Vic07
09-04-2005, 00:39
Originally posted by Goose0009
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. You mean there are no Young conscripts in Chechnya. OK once again Young Russian Business men with their heads in the Clouds living the good life while others struggle to survive everyday. Im sure rich kids in Moscow go to chechnya. The war in Chechnya will never be over as long as Russia has Troops there.

Well, I realise that you would be too ignorant to realise this - but the patrolling duties are carried out the OMON and the Internal Forces of the Chechen Republic. The war is over. The federal forces in the republic serve as backup forces when needed. Most action that is conducted against terrorist forces in the republic are carried out by the Internal Forces (which used do take orders directly from Kadyrov, untill he became the Vice-premier)
The truth is, for a conscript you will probably have to have some contacts to be stationed in the Chechen republic. There are alot of people that want to serve there in particular and more than 3/4 have their requests of transfer denied. You know, 18 year old ruffians from villages in the far east want to see action.
The war in chechnya is over, but the situation will never be stable because you have alot of rival clans that will always be out to get revenge against other clans because they were 'insulted' or 'dishonored' by them in the last several decades! Atleast take the time to think before you type. It isnt that hard.
Vic
P.S. Rich kids in Moscow will only end up in chechnya if they pay up to the commanding officer or if their daddy is the commanding officer;)

Vic07
09-04-2005, 00:47
Originally posted by koba65
The only Russians I know who have returned to Russia from Canada and the U.S. work for Western businesses and retain Canadian and US passports - they were transferred here by the companies to use their knowledge of the region. And, they make a helluva lot more than they would if they re-immigrated and got a job as a Russian citizen. You're in denial.


You are only half-correct on this. Yes, they do make more, yes they do retain passports (but they live here on their RUSSIAN PASSPORTS). But no, they are not transferred, they are usually HIRED by Russian companies that want western specialists that also have knowledge of the region. As a matter of fact, they do re-immigrate. The reason they get 'a helluva lot more cash' is because they have WESTERN diplomas and EXPERIENCE working in WESTERN COMPANIES, which many Russians do not have. So due to the higher qualifications and the high demand/low supply of these specialists, they get paid more. Understand?

koba65
09-04-2005, 03:28
Originally posted by Vic07
You are only half-correct on this. Yes, they do make more, yes they do retain passports (but they live here on their RUSSIAN PASSPORTS). But no, they are not transferred, they are usually HIRED by Russian companies that want western specialists that also have knowledge of the region. As a matter of fact, they do re-immigrate. The reason they get 'a helluva lot more cash' is because they have WESTERN diplomas and EXPERIENCE working in WESTERN COMPANIES, which many Russians do not have. So due to the higher qualifications and the high demand/low supply of these specialists, they get paid more. Understand?

Re-read my post. I said the Russians I KNOW who return to Russia from the US and Canada retain their US and Canadian passports - actually, they don't even have Russian passports. They were transferred by their Stateside-based companies to Russia. The ones with children wouldn't dare "re-immigrate" and take Russian citizenship again - afraid their sons would be drafted for that war you guys have declared "over."

Goose0009
09-04-2005, 08:47
Originally posted by Vic07
Well, I realise that you would be too ignorant to realise this - but the patrolling duties are carried out the OMON and the Internal Forces of the Chechen Republic. The war is over. The federal forces in the republic serve as backup forces when needed. Most action that is conducted against terrorist forces in the republic are carried out by the Internal Forces (which used do take orders directly from Kadyrov, untill he became the Vice-premier)

Vic
P.S. Rich kids in Moscow will only end up in chechnya if they pay up to the commanding officer or if their daddy is the commanding officer;)
Hey Vick, The war is over. OK their buddy.

Time Line For Ya,
October 2002 forty-one terrorists and 130 hostages are killed when Russian forces use gas to disable the terrorists and storm building.

July 2003 Two Chechen female suicide bombers kill themselves and fourteen others at an outdoor Moscow music festival.

February 2004 Former Chechen president Yandarbiyev is assissinated in Qatar. A Qatari court sentences two Russian intelligence agents to life for the crime.

May 9th, 2004 president Kadirof is killed by a bomb explosion.

June 24 2004 fighters stage a mass raid in Nazzran, Ingushetia at least 47 law enforcement officers killed.

August 31 2004 Two Russian Airliners are brought down by two Chechen women .

August 31 2004 Chechen woman blows up 10 people in Metro station in Central Moscow.

September 1 2004 Heavily armed band of terrorists Chechen, Ingush and at least one ethnic slav siege a middle school and kill or wound over 1,000 people mostly children.

Sources, BBC, Raido Free Europe, Chechnya Weekly, New York Times

Maybe I will retire in Chechnya since there is no war going on.

Vic07
09-04-2005, 22:09
Kobe, then obviously you know very few Russians that have lived in the west. Most of the ones I know re-immigrated (including myself and my family).

Goose, that isn't a war. Not to mention that all of the terrorist acts you named did not happen in the Chechen republic. If you haven't noticed, terrorist acts happen in many countries. So is the Netherlands at war? Is Spain at war?Is France at war? The only argument that you can make is that the international community is at war with terrorists. Beyond that your words have no meaning. Go ahead and retire to the Chechen republic for all I care, the real estate prices are rising there, so you will profit if you buy property there. However I for one do not see a rugged mountanous republic appealing fo retirement.
Vic

koba65
09-04-2005, 22:16
Originally posted by Vic07
Kobe, then obviously you know very few Russians that have lived in the west. Most of the ones I know re-immigrated (including myself and my family).


Now THAT is funny. I know quite a few Russians who lived in the West and work in Moscow (as Americans, etc.) And, I know tons o' Russians, Ukrainians, etc., who currently live in the US. Actually, most immigrants I know who currently live in the US have no desire of returning - they've made a good life for themselves and have good jobs. Especially the women - they get paid a good salary and don't have to endure the constant harrassment at work.

I do know one guy who returned from Canada - but that's because the only job he could get there was working in the Toronto Tower elevator. And strangely enough, he doesn't think Expats should be in Moscow, that their jobs should be given to Russians and that life in Canada sucks.

koba65
09-04-2005, 22:22
Originally posted by Vic07
Goose, that isn't a war. Not to mention that all of the terrorist acts you named did not happen in the Chechen republic. If you haven't noticed, terrorist acts happen in many countries. So is the Netherlands at war? Is Spain at war?Is France at war? The only argument that you can make is that the international community is at war with terrorists. Beyond that your words have no meaning.
Vic

Vic, your President has said on many ocassions that Russia is at war against Chechen terrorists - that an attack on Russia, by Chechen (or other) terrorists is an act of war. If you feel Chechnya is not in a state of war, perhaps you should take your next vacation down to Groznyj? Ask yourself this - can you freely move around Chechnya, as a Russian, without danger of being targetted by an armed militia? If you can, then I will join you in declaring the war over.

Using your logic, your statements, I could freely state that the war in Iraq is over?

And, yes, France, Spain, Holland are at war - whether they realize it or not.

Benedikt
09-04-2005, 22:43
hallo koba,
ANYONE WHO IS USING AN AGENCY TO GET AN INVITATION TO COME HERE IS THEORETICALLY BREAKING THE LAW...
because they use a fictionally address / company and registration where you might work and live...

Vic07
09-04-2005, 22:48
Well, my father worked in JDS Uniphase before it went under and left them before the bubble burst, he then got a high-paying job in a high-tech startup but he realised that high tech has no room for improvement and that his career would be at a standstill, so we immigrated back here. There are also many people in Canada that came back, most of them had either lost their jobs in the high-tech bubble or had jobs where they could see that they will not be improving their positions. I lived in Canada for 6 years, I think that Russia is better to live in.

Kobe, Vladmir Vladimirovich never said that were were at war with Chechen terrorists, he said that we were at war with terrorists and extremists. Do not label all terrorists as Chechens, less than half of the terrorists operating inside the Russian Federation are chechens. The situation in Iraq is different because there the United States invaded a sovreign government without any basis for the invasion. As I also said, civilised countries are AT WAR with International Terrorism. So do not say that there is a war inside the Chechen repubic, there is not. The Russian Federation is AT WAR with INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM, so is the United States, Great Brittain, France, Germany, Spain and every other civilised country. The chechen republic is not in a state of war, it is in a state of 'high alert', you will not have any problems with 'armed' militia if you go there unless you are smuggling arms. The only way a run-in with the chechen militia wil differ from a run-in with the Moscow/Omsk/St.petes militia is that the Chechen ones are armed, they will frisk you and check your belonging in addition to checking your documents. They also have roadblocks that check ALL cars passing through. But so does Ingushetia, Stavropolsky Kray, Republic of Dagestan and several others.
Vic
Vic

Goose0009
10-04-2005, 05:27
Well, vic you can sugar coat it anway you want, but it is war. I don't care its your country not mine. If you are OK with spending money to keep a little part of a country that Most Russians could careless about then so be it. I just think it is nuts to spend all that energy and resources to keep Chechnya part of Russia. Do you have blinders on when you walk the streets? If I had a nickle for every Russian I saw on the streets asking for money I think I would have a nice chunk of change in my pocket. I understand you have pride and optimisim for the future of your country and that is good. However, Russia well never reach its true potential if you can not see the real struggles that goes on with common Russian People.

Vic07
10-04-2005, 11:29
Maybe you should think about the people of Chechnya. Why do you want to screw them by opening a political void that will once again be filled by extremist mujaheds? Most of the people living inside the Chechen republic want to stay a part of the RF. They rememer what independence was like when they had de-facto independence. They did not like it. One more thing, we are not spending any money to KEEP them a part of the RF, we are spending money to rebuild the infrastructure and housing that were destroyed in the beginning of the 90's.
Also, I hope that you do realise that all of the people that beg on the streets for money really dont need it, not to mention how most of them make twice as much as ordinary Russians? Easily over $1200 a month. Do not tell me you are so stuipid as to give them money. Here, if a person really needs money, he will go and get a job, he will not beg for it. Also, if I had 5 roubles for every bum I saw in New York city, I would be a millionaire. But I am pretty sure that most of those bums don't need the money either. They CHOOSE to live that way, same here.
Vic

koba65
10-04-2005, 13:00
Originally posted by Vic07
Well, my father worked in JDS Uniphase before it went under and left them before the bubble burst, he then got a high-paying job in a high-tech startup but he realised that high tech has no room for improvement and that his career would be at a standstill, so we immigrated back here. There are also many people in Canada that came back, most of them had either lost their jobs in the high-tech bubble or had jobs where they could see that they will not be improving their positions. I lived in Canada for 6 years, I think that Russia is better to live in.

Kobe, Vladmir Vladimirovich never said that were were at war with Chechen terrorists, he said that we were at war with terrorists and extremists. Do not label all terrorists as Chechens, less than half of the terrorists operating inside the Russian Federation are chechens. The situation in Iraq is different because there the United States invaded a sovreign government without any basis for the invasion. As I also said, civilised countries are AT WAR with International Terrorism. So do not say that there is a war inside the Chechen repubic, there is not. The Russian Federation is AT WAR with INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM, so is the United States, Great Brittain, France, Germany, Spain and every other civilised country. The chechen republic is not in a state of war, it is in a state of 'high alert', you will not have any problems with 'armed' militia if you go there unless you are smuggling arms. The only way a run-in with the chechen militia wil differ from a run-in with the Moscow/Omsk/St.petes militia is that the Chechen ones are armed, they will frisk you and check your belonging in addition to checking your documents. They also have roadblocks that check ALL cars passing through. But so does Ingushetia, Stavropolsky Kray, Republic of Dagestan and several others.
Vic
Vic

Vic,
Your spinning a "war" - ok, let's use the Russian military's definition of a "local conflict" - that's what you have in Chechnya. Personally, I'd like to see all the Chechen thugs wiped out in the outhouses as Putin said - and, by the way, VVP DID directly address the CHECHEN TERRORISTS AND THEIR INTERNATIONAL SUPPORTERS. When I have more time, I'll dig up all his statements.

I should have been clearer about my statement on Groznyj and Chechnya - do you feel safe enough to go there without having the risk of being targets by Basaev's or Umarov's bandits? Are people there NOT living in fear of armed conflict?

Did the Chechen bandits surrender and give up their claim to independence? Is there another person claiming to be the leader of Chechnya? Are their military operations on-going to wipe out armed paramilitary organizations? That, whatever you choose to call it, is armed conflict, rebellion, uprising, war, etc. Hell, even we called the Korean War a "police action." BTW, Russia (and countries in the CIS) are the only places where you label "police" and "interior troops" as not being some sort of military formation. Rubbish - they're trained in combat and that's what they're engaging in as we speak. I wish them success.

Regarding the beggars:
1200$ a month? If that were the case I think Moscow would be flooded with beggars. I think the beggars in NY are probably the ones making more money - and it sounds like you haven't been to NY in a while, their numbers are down.

Having said that, I think you're painting much too rosey a picture of the plight of the average Russian. Obviously you don't know the ones who do not have work, or if they do work, they're making about 100-250$ a month. Medical care costs (good medical care) are astronomical, education costs are high, public service charges are rising, etc., etc., etc. Plus, the pensioners are barely scrapping by. And, if you like, we could start discussing the forgotten Russia - the provinces where a lot of people are not "living" but "surviving."

Most people I deal with in my work are extremely poor, and that's after a lifetime of government service. They'd be happy to learn that life just isn't that bad according to Vic.

Goose0009
11-04-2005, 06:45
Originally posted by koba65
Vic,
Your spinning a "war" - ok, let's use the Russian military's definition of a "local conflict" - that's what you have in Chechnya. Personally, I'd like to see all the Chechen thugs wiped out in the outhouses as Putin said - and, by the way, VVP DID directly address the CHECHEN TERRORISTS AND THEIR INTERNATIONAL SUPPORTERS. When I have more time, I'll dig up all his statements.

I should have been clearer about my statement on Groznyj and Chechnya - do you feel safe enough to go there without having the risk of being targets by Basaev's or Umarov's bandits? Are people there NOT living in fear of armed conflict?

Did the Chechen bandits surrender and give up their claim to independence? Is there another person claiming to be the leader of Chechnya? Are their military operations on-going to wipe out armed paramilitary organizations? That, whatever you choose to call it, is armed conflict, rebellion, uprising, war, etc. Hell, even we called the Korean War a "police action." BTW, Russia (and countries in the CIS) are the only places where you label "police" and "interior troops" as not being some sort of military formation. Rubbish - they're trained in combat and that's what they're engaging in as we speak. I wish them success.

Regarding the beggars:
1200$ a month? If that were the case I think Moscow would be flooded with beggars. I think the beggars in NY are probably the ones making more money - and it sounds like you haven't been to NY in a while, their numbers are down.

Having said that, I think you're painting much too rosey a picture of the plight of the average Russian. Obviously you don't know the ones who do not have work, or if they do work, they're making about 100-250$ a month. Medical care costs (good medical care) are astronomical, education costs are high, public service charges are rising, etc., etc., etc. Plus, the pensioners are barely scrapping by. And, if you like, we could start discussing the forgotten Russia - the provinces where a lot of people are not "living" but "surviving."

Most people I deal with in my work are extremely poor, and that's after a lifetime of government service. They'd be happy to learn that life just isn't that bad according to Vic.
Amen.
Koba, I think this is the only thread we agree on. I lived in Kemerovo for a while and my girlfriends parents gave 30 years of their lives to medicine, the Soviet Union and the New Russia. In return for their services, they got a piece of paper to hang on a wall, a life time of 14 hour work days, no retirement and no funds to help their children better their lives. I'd use that piece of paper to wipe my A#s.