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Matt24
26-04-2010, 10:55
I'm afraid this is a question to mother tongue english speakers - maybe even Americans only, my Russian teacher swears blind that in the Russian education system they are taught that the correct American pronunciation of the word 'often' has a silent 't' in it, and that my 'of-ten' is incorrect - whilst I do admit to saying 'fi-lum' instead of film and 'aluminium' - (i was going to use the 'cheating scum b*****d' instead of Thierry Henry example but what the heh, eh? if the French can look their children in the eyes....) - But 'Often', doesn't it have a relatively hard 'T' in it? I was wondering if I'd discovered a CIA implant 'spot the Russian spy thing'...

Matt

BrandonL
26-04-2010, 11:12
Yes, when I say often the T is silent but sometimes I add the T depending on how I say it. If I start a sentence or phrase I usually add the T sound
but if it's in the middle or end of what I'm saying I never add the T
the T adds a pause which Americans hate)
but generally we almost never add the T sound

len
26-04-2010, 11:35
I'm afraid this is a question to mother tongue english speakers - maybe even Americans only, my Russian teacher swears blind that in the Russian education system they are taught that the correct American pronunciation of the word 'often' has a silent 't' in it, and that my 'of-ten' is incorrect

Matt

its like pronouncing the word obvious

Matt24
26-04-2010, 11:40
its like pronouncing the word obvious

Len, not really understanding the connection, please type slowly not thinking so clearly this morning.

Matt

BrandonL
26-04-2010, 11:44
Len, not really understanding the connection, please type slowly not thinking so clearly this morning.

Matt

With the word obvious we don't pronounce the B

len
26-04-2010, 11:57
Len, not really understanding the connection, please type slowly not thinking so clearly this morning.

Matt

now thats a tease...thanks BranDol. Thats exactly what i meant.

Matt24
26-04-2010, 12:01
With the word obvious we don't pronounce the B

Brandon / Len,

Serious? I'm amazed, you say Ov-ious, stunner. Thanks we live we learn eh? Matt

yakspeare
26-04-2010, 12:03
i say both...although in the classroom whatever you use to start with you should you use regularly but it is a common question...just like the either/either(eether/Ither). In English there are certainly differences between American and English pronunciation "route" (rowt,root) but also variation within British English. This can be village to village variations or even to do with class and which private/public schooling etc.

I know here in Volgograd a lot of people say " чо" instead of "что" ..some people say this is "village russian"...i don't know if it is only a volgograd oblast thing or not. When Russians here ask about offen/often i use this as an example.

BrandonL
26-04-2010, 12:05
No problem Matt, glad I can help
let us know if you got anymore questions)

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 12:09
I use a silent "t" in often, but always pronounce the "b" in obvious.

tvadim133
26-04-2010, 12:13
i say both...although in the classroom whatever you use to start with you should you use regularly but it is a common question...just like the either/either(eether/Ither). In English there are certainly differences between American and English pronunciation "route" (rowt,root) but also variation within British English. This can be village to village variations or even to do with class and which private/public schooling etc.

I know here in Volgograd a lot of people say " чо" instead of "что" ..some people say this is "village russian"...i don't know if it is only a volgograd oblast thing or not. When Russians here ask about offen/often i use this as an example.

Thank you!

As for "cho" (What), there are even more variants in pronunciation:

1. чё (cho) - very and too much informal, may be, came from village or just people withiout careful pronunciation;
2. шо (sho)- southern dialect of russia, under the influence of Ukrainian;
3. что (chto)- the official way
4. што (shto) - Moscow dialect + old russian variant.

yakspeare
26-04-2010, 12:14
generally the closest pronunciation of obvious that i normally use

is SIMILAR to "Ofvious"

SpinaPubica
26-04-2010, 12:15
I am not a native english speaker, i was tought American english, and i've been speaking english for almost 20 years.
i use silent "t" in "often" but i've never even heard of obvious without "b".
No age for learning, heh?

len
26-04-2010, 12:26
I use a silent "t" in often, but always pronounce the "b" in obvious.

Really, obvious with a B how do you go about that? I have just tried and it gives a long pause making the word heavier for me.

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 12:30
generally the closest pronunciation of obvious that i normally use

is SIMILAR to "Ofvious"

Do you have a general problem with voiced plosives?

BrandonL
26-04-2010, 12:30
Really, obvious with a B how do you go about that? I have just tried and it gives a long pause making the word heavier for me.

Yes the b adds a pause

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 12:32
Yes the b adds a pause

Arviously.

Slurred enunciation avoids all pauses.

Or rather, slurred 'nunciation.

mosaikmum
26-04-2010, 12:38
In Australia the 't' is mostly silent; occasionally in some circumstances we might pronounce the 't'.

The 'b' in obvious is always pronounced.

BrandonL
26-04-2010, 12:46
Arviously.

Slurred enunciation avoids all pauses.

Or rather, slurred 'nunciation.

almost, problem is I don't slur my words

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 12:53
This is an interesting series.
(D'Mericans voice the first "t" in "inneresting"?)

YouTube- The Story of English episode 1 - An English Speaking World - Part 1 / 7

Matt24
26-04-2010, 12:57
Really, obvious with a B how do you go about that? I have just tried and it gives a long pause making the word heavier for me.

I think it's simply a matter of training and what you get used to, obvious without the 'B' sounds, as the great Mickey Tong has written, slurred to mine and apparently his ears, as you might pronounce when slightly inebriated:
'oviously ofizzer I 'av 'ad a dwink, but I'm not pished'

For me, it's very uncomfortable to drop the 'B', much as you suggest it becomes uncomfortably 'heavy' when you add it in. I was genuinely confused when you first suggested that you don't use it, 'Offen' I have heard regularly, but not 'ovious'.
I'm quite surprised that Yakspeare has a 'B-less' obvious, having spent a reasonable amount of time in Australia and in the company of Australians, I thought we had a close to homogenous commonwealth 'reading' - if you have had anything to do with Indian bureaucracy, you'll know that the 'B' in obvious is alive and well.

Wild

Matt

BrandonL
26-04-2010, 12:58
If I wasn't on. My phone I could find the same about British/Scottish English
would you like a glass of wah-tah?
Or maybe a glass or wah'er?

alterego
26-04-2010, 13:10
When I was a teenager it was popular to write the word 'often' on a piece of paper and ask people to pronounce it. It seemed then that no one pronounced the 't'. Now I listen for it and it seems that more often than not I hear it. Of course it may be due to the bias of international exposure. I myself don't pronounce the 't'.

As for 'obvious' my lips definitely come together to form a 'b' but I don't think one is clearly heard. I think if a small amount of 'b' is not there then it would sound a bit odd. Another thing for me to listen for now.

I used to know a website that actually gave the percentage of the population that used these different pronunciations. Haven't been able to find it for a long time now. If anyone finds it please let me know.

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 13:10
would you like a glass of wah-tah?
Or maybe a glass or wah'er?

Glottal stops (glo'al stops) (glardle starps) are a feature of Britain's regional accents.

BrandonL
26-04-2010, 13:16
Glottal stops (glo'al stops) (glardle starps) are a feature of Britain's regional accents.

Exactly dropping pauses or the t or b sound could be said the same about American regional accents I've lived all over the states and not every part drops the bs or ts but a lot of people do.

yakspeare
26-04-2010, 13:35
um no I don't.

My childhood is really a battle of four English dialects-City Australian(typical of Sydney and Melbourne), Cockney English(due to my best friend being a cockney and living in the UK for over 2 formative years), Hampshire English(where I lived) and finally North Queensland drawl( 7 years). I can speak with any and all, it depends on my audience but English is easier for me than Australian.

So my language changes depending on audience and speed( I am naturally a very fast talker-something I have to modify to students).

another good example in English is Ten Pin Bowling. If you say it slow it is as it reads....but if you say in normal speech "Tem Pin bowling" as the mouth doesn't like switching from N to P.

Hence why i said what i normally use.

Mine is generally closer to this:

http://www.forvo.com/word/obvious/

Than This:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obvious


this is better:

http://www.oxfordadvancedlearnersdictionary.com/dictionary/obvious

The "british" here clearly says the "B" , the "American" does not. I generally speak like the second, but this is not all the time.

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 14:06
Does anyone else think this guy has a slight Sarth Efrican accent?

YouTube- Introducing SpeechSchool.TV: accent reduction, voice training, speech therapy & elocution

tvadim133
26-04-2010, 14:36
Vowels make me think that he may have.

I do remember my collegues from SA who used "closed" and too short length of vowels in speaking English.

But I am Russian and can not identify it well.

If I meet that person in a real life, I would think, he speaks more then well, but he is probably from NL or Denmark.

But I can not explain, what makes me think so?

What do you think?

BrandonL
26-04-2010, 14:41
You know what I love, when people mention things about how the British or Scottish say words the Brits or scots will tell us it's "accents" but when American says things the British and Scottish say it's "drunken slur" I think it's quite cute and funny

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 15:10
Vowels make me think that he may have.

I do remember my collegues from SA who used "closed" and too short length of vowels in speaking English.

But I am Russian and can not identify it well.

If I meet that person in a real life, I would think, he speaks more then well, but he is probably from NL or Denmark.

But I can not explain, what makes me think so?

What do you think?


His English is certainly excellent and I would credit him with being a native speaker - but, yes, it's the slightly "clipped" quality of his speech that makes me think he is an English-speaking S African.

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 15:29
You know what I love, when people mention things about how the British or Scottish say words the Brits or scots will tell us it's "accents" but when American says things the British and Scottish say it's "drunken slur" I think it's quite cute and funny

Actually, I refer to some of the abominations perpetrated on the English language in some regions of Britain as "speech impediments" or "disease of the throat" or "brain-damaged grunting". (But not to their faces.)

Matt24
26-04-2010, 16:52
Does anyone else think this guy has a slight Sarth Efrican accent?

YouTube- Introducing SpeechSchool.TV: accent reduction, voice training, speech therapy & elocution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YudeAuqfTI8)

Mate, he's a Kiwi, clear as day

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 17:26
Mate, he's a Kiwi, clear as day

Really? Elucidate, please.

Don't Kiwis and Ozzies have a rising intonation at the end of every sentence, making everything sound like a question?

Matt24
26-04-2010, 17:46
Really? Elucidate, please.

Don't Kiwis and Ozzies have a rising intonation at the end of every sentence, making everything sound like a question?

Mickey Tong sir,

to my ear this guy is clearly a Kiwi, probably a south Islander, (they are slightly less sing-songy, ie more regulated intonation than their northern and australian bretheren, they also do a lot of transposing i's and e's, certainly in comparison to British english - winsday instead of wednesday for example), with a tiny bit of airs and graces added on for the camera, as ever treating your opinion with great respect I asked my colleague, Stevo the Kiwi, and he agreed with me, he suggested that the guy was from Palmerston North - anyway we then googled him and the guy is a Kiwi. I hear what you say about the clipping and the SA possibilities, but again only to my own ear, I say he was a little bit too rounded on his clipping to be a Bok.

Matt

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 18:05
You know what I love, when people mention things about how the British or Scottish say words the Brits or scots will tell us it's "accents" but when American says things the British and Scottish say it's "drunken slur" I think it's quite cute and funny

Furthermore............

.........in a previous incarnation I was a cop (the Railways wouldn't have me) in what had suddenly become Zimbabwe, formerly known as Rhodesia.
Historically, the Rhodesian police force (along with the Hong Kong police force) had been a destination for the not-too-bright products of Britain's lesser public schools (known as private schools everywhere else), where they could learn to Boss The Peasants, and Take Control.

Early one morning, after a night-shift of drunks with grenades, unpaid whores claiming rape, traffic carnage, shoot-outs with Senior Party Members, almost-violent arguments with thugs from the Dog Squad, etc, etc, I was tucking into some scrambled eggs, mushrooms, bacon and sausages at the single-quarters' canteen. Scrambled eggs were a privilege (apparently it takes more work to make them than fried eggs) earned only by developing a cosy rapport with the fat cnut who ran the kitchen (who was a black nationalist and really didn't like white people).

So there I was, unwinding from a stressful shift and hoping nobody would start playing his stereo at full volume when I went to bed (there's another story about that) when a "chap" approaches my table and asks a perfectly innocuous question about the eggs available for breakfast.

I nearly jumped up and smashed his face in.

Purely in response to his English toff's accent I felt as if he had pis**d in my face....and probably everyone at his school spoke like that, totally unaware that they offended everyone else whenever they opened their mouths.

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 18:15
to my ear this guy is clearly a Kiwi, probably a south Islander.......a little bit too rounded on his clipping to be a Bok.

Matt

Respect, Matt, reeeeeespect. You Ph D lads really pay attention to detail and do some thorough research. Is he from Albert Street in Palmerston North, or is he more of a West End type?

Matt24
26-04-2010, 19:10
You Ph D lads really pay attention to detail and do some thorough research....

Apparently not, Stevo has pointed out 'Palmy Vegas' is on the north island, so much for thorough research

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 19:19
Apparently not, Stevo has pointed out 'Palmy Vegas' is on the north island, so much for thorough research

Aaaaaaaaaaaggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Matt..........

...........you leave me with no.faith.whatsoever.

























Give Stevo a slap.

MissAnnElk
26-04-2010, 19:55
I'm afraid this is a question to mother tongue english speakers - maybe even Americans only, my Russian teacher swears blind that in the Russian education system they are taught that the correct American pronunciation of the word 'often' has a silent 't' in it, and that my 'of-ten' is incorrect - whilst I do admit to saying 'fi-lum' instead of film and 'aluminium' - (i was going to use the 'cheating scum b*****d' instead of Thierry Henry example but what the heh, eh? if the French can look their children in the eyes....) - But 'Often', doesn't it have a relatively hard 'T' in it? I was wondering if I'd discovered a CIA implant 'spot the Russian spy thing'...

Matt

Late to the party, here, but I had to add that where I come from in the US, the "t" in "often" is silent . . . like the "p" in "swimming."

:Loco::Loco::Loco:

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 21:06
Late to the party, here, but I had to add that where I come from in the US, the "t" in "often" is silent . . . like the "p" in "swimming."

:Loco::Loco::Loco:

Since you left, has there been a reduced incidence of silent "p's" in Ohio's swimming pools? Has cranberry juice helped you win friends and influence people? (Or, at least, reduce episodes of social embarrassment?)

yakspeare
26-04-2010, 21:53
i did a snap poll at work on this issue(and incorporated it as a subject in class this evening-so thanks guys n girls).

We have two American teachers, one from Maine in the North and one from Georgia in the south. We have a London Ontario "Don't mention the French" Canuck. We also have four Russian teachers but one speaks in a quite a cultured British accent(the others have typical Russian intonation).

Only the Brit sounding Russian pronounced Often as "Often"
I say it this way about 50% of the time with perhaps saying "offen" a little more often , but not by much.
The other Russian teachers, the two Americans and the Canadian ALL pronounced it as "offen"

Now for Obvious...

The Brit sounding Russian was again the person to say obvious.
I acknowledge I do say it sometimes for emphasis but usually don't, still my "Ofvious" has a slight B to it which the Americans completely lack.

The Americans and Canadians insist that it is "Ofvious" and your mouth can't naturally put the B sound in and one even went onto to say that people may THINK they put the B sound in(and want to think they speak correctly) but in practice they don't....I don't agree with her because I know I do use it and the Russian uses it all the time. She stated she would only include the B sound if she was being rude and sarcatic etc to someone.

Maybe some further comments from some Americans would be helpful to this debate.

There are a lot of Kiwis, by the way, and yes typical of North Island who normally sound quite similar to us Aussies. There are some, mostly on the south island(which had greater scottish influence for example) who speak a rather amusing style of English that we like to mock.

For example instead of six they say "sex"

shopkeeper:How many do you want?
Kiwi male: I want sex
Shopkeeper: You want want??

they also say things like Fusch and chups instead of fish and chips.

South African accent sounds like a dutch/german/scandinavian trying to speak English and is distinctively difference. I had an ex from " Souf Afrikahhh".

Scatterling
26-04-2010, 22:29
Does anyone else think this guy has a slight Sarth Efrican accent?

YouTube- Introducing SpeechSchool.TV: accent reduction, voice training, speech therapy & elocution (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YudeAuqfTI8)

Nah, it's annoying. So it has to be Aussie. (Ses de Sarth Efrican)

And since I'm here; silent b, silent t. Why? Hell, becos dat's how our Ma's taught us.

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 22:32
I thought sex is what Sarth Efricans put potatoes in.

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 22:36
Nah, it's annoying. So it has to be Aussie. (Ses de Sarth Efrican)

And since I'm here; silent b, silent t. Why? Hell, becos dat's how our Ma's taught us.

Ag......Here se gat man, vaarvandaan kom jy af?

tvadim133
26-04-2010, 22:40
Ag......Here se gat man, vaarvandaan kom jy af?

translation, please! :)

MickeyTong
26-04-2010, 22:46
translation, please! :)

Ach, the Lord's arse, man, where are you from?

Scatterling
26-04-2010, 22:53
Ag......Here se gat man, vaarvandaan kom jy af?

:Loco::Loco::Loco: Funniest thing I've read in a long time, you must be from Boksburg. Very distinct dialect.

yakspeare
26-04-2010, 22:57
Afrikaan has to be one of the easiest languages to at least read(not sure about grammar)...anyone with any basic knowledge of German or similar can read it as a mix of it and English. i used to talk to some SA friends online after grabbing a phrasebook....it was so darn easy and wonderful to have a language without frustrations trying to understand it. sadly it isn't more commonplace.

Swordfish90293
26-04-2010, 23:23
I'm afraid this is a question to mother tongue english speakers - maybe even Americans only, my Russian teacher swears blind that in the Russian education system they are taught that the correct American pronunciation of the word 'often' has a silent 't' in it, and that my 'of-ten' is incorrect - whilst I do admit to saying 'fi-lum' instead of film and 'aluminium' - (i was going to use the 'cheating scum b*****d' instead of Thierry Henry example but what the heh, eh? if the French can look their children in the eyes....) - But 'Often', doesn't it have a relatively hard 'T' in it? I was wondering if I'd discovered a CIA implant 'spot the Russian spy thing'...

Matt

For crying out loud! Pronounce the word quickly and the 't' gets muffled. The tongue does not tap the roof of the palate. With 'obvious' a similar scenario where the lips stay parted at the point of pronouncing the 'o'.

OK?

Scatterling
26-04-2010, 23:28
For crying out loud! Pronounce the word quickly and the 't' gets muffled. The tongue does not tap the roof of the palate. With 'obvious' a similar scenario where the lips stay parted at the point of pronouncing the 'o'.

OK?

Party-pooper. (all p's, r's and t's clearly pronounced)

Scatterling
26-04-2010, 23:40
Quick joke (this one's as Sarth Efrican as biltong and Klipdrift brandy):11581:

To get the full effect all consonants should be very clearly pronounced and all vowels flattened beyond public decency.

Gatiep meets Maraai walking down the street and notices her very low-cut V-neck sweater.
"Hoezit, Maraai. That's a blerrie nice sweater. You want to take a walk wif me?" he asks.
"Nay Gatiep, you see, this V stands for Virgin"
"Ag orrait, Maraai, I will check you later then"
"Nay, nay wait Gatiep! I just remembered, this is a very old sweater!"

Matt24
26-04-2010, 23:59
For crying out loud! Pronounce the word quickly and the 't' gets muffled. The tongue does not tap the roof of the palate. With 'obvious' a similar scenario where the lips stay parted at the point of pronouncing the 'o'.

OK?

Who died and left you in charge? Seeing as we're giving out instructions try making a sentence out of the following: Go bottom stick it up your and head sharpen you prat. OK?

yakspeare
27-04-2010, 00:28
Who died and left you in charge? Seeing as we're giving out instructions try making a sentence out of the following: Go bottom stick it up your and head sharpen you prat. OK?

he is also incorrect...it depends on regional variation and education and natural speed of speech for which one you use. some of us use both too.

MickeyTong
27-04-2010, 12:12
..........you must be from Boksburg. Very distinct dialect.

Nooit, sussie, ek is 'n puik Rooinek. Maar ek was op 'n tweetalige skool in Oos Transvaal gewees.

yakspeare
27-04-2010, 12:34
hahaha

Scatterling
27-04-2010, 21:13
Nooit, sussie, ek is 'n puik Rooinek. Maar ek was op 'n tweetalige skool in Oos Transvaal gewees.

Well, I never........ Sorry for calling you a Boksburger. That was rude and uncalled for. Could just as well have called you an Aussie. :11030:

Matt24
27-04-2010, 21:21
Nooit, sussie, ek is 'n puik Rooinek. Maar ek was op 'n tweetalige skool in Oos Transvaal gewees.

Bad news! I think Bels has got hold of your login details Mr. Tong sir.

MickeyTong
28-04-2010, 15:12
Afrikaan has to be one of the easiest languages to at least read(not sure about grammar)...anyone with any basic knowledge of German or similar can read it as a mix of it and English. i used to talk to some SA friends online after grabbing a phrasebook....it was so darn easy and wonderful to have a language without frustrations trying to understand it. sadly it isn't more commonplace.

It's very easy. I haven't used it since 1980, but it still comes readily to mind. Some unkind people question it's status as a language, but Boere get a bit woes and kwaai if you suggest it's a Creole. I got six cuts with a cane at school for suggesting (humorously, I thought) that Afrikaans was White Man's Fanakalo.

(Fanakalo is a pidgin invented for communication with the many language groups who work at SA's goldmines - designed to achieve fluency in about 2 months.)

MickeyTong
28-04-2010, 15:24
Well, I never........ Sorry for calling you a Boksburger. That was rude and uncalled for. Could just as well have called you an Aussie. :11030:

Being considered a Boksburg Slope is one thing, but calling me an [I]Aussie[I]???
Please, there's a limit to jocular teasing.










Are you from Boksburg?

MickeyTong
28-04-2010, 15:36
Bad news! I think Bels has got hold of your login details Mr. Tong sir.

It's OK, Matt. My mind is periodically afflicted with skewness and kurtosis, but unlike Bels, I recuperate quickly.