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View Full Version : Oh, what would we do if mighty Latvia attacked us?



preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 10:00
RBC, 28.02.2005, Moscow 18:12:41.Latvian President Vaira Vike-Freiberga has confirmed her plans to arrive in Russia to attend celebrations in commemoration of the 60th anniversary of World War II victory. The President has voiced this position on the Echo of Moscow radio station today. At the same time Vike-Freiberga noted that as the winners of World War II, including the former USSR, made an agreement in May 1945, Latvia "lost its sovereignty and the possibility for democratic development." The Latvian President remarked on some common characteristics of Hitler and Stalin. In her view, both rulers built totalitarian regimes, "where human life had no value." Vike-Freiberga disagreed that Latvia was an unfriendly nation for Russia. "We have no plans to attack Russia; although forcedly, we had long lived together. The Latvian people have no negative attitudes towards Russians," the President concluded.

sparky
01-03-2005, 10:05
Assuming the only sort of attack would be of a military nature?

Halyavshik
01-03-2005, 10:10
Given that it's a NATO member, now, it certainly wouldn't be pretty.

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 10:16
Originally posted by Halyavshik
Given that it's a NATO member, now, it certainly wouldn't be pretty. to be honest with you, i don't think NATO will risk a nuclear war to defend Latvia. I remember Poland had a treaty with UK and France in 1939, and they didn't move a finger until they themselves were attacked by Germany. I can hardly see Americans dying for Latvia...

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 10:23
Originally posted by ElectricDave
Assuming the only sort of attack would be of a military nature? no, but attack is a very ambiguous word. you'd hardly use if you want to make it clear that what you mean has nothing to do with military

sparky
01-03-2005, 10:25
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
I remember Poland had a treaty with UK and France in 1939, and they didn't move a finger until they themselves were attacked by Germany.

So when was the UK attacked exactly, and when was war declared?

Ghost
01-03-2005, 10:36
Why would we defend Latvia? It has no oil.

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 10:38
1939
September 1st
Germany invaded Poland. First use of Blitzkrieg. Britain and France gave Germany an ultimatum to get out. Blackout and evacuation plans were put in place in Britain.

September 2nd
Chamberlain sent Hitler an ultimatum: withdraw German troops from Poland or war will be declared. The Luftwaffe gained air superiority over the Polish air force.

September 3rd
Germany ignored the ultimatum and Britain and France declared war on Germany. British troops (the BEF) were sent to France.
The passenger liner "Athenia" was sunk by U-30 off of Ireland. 112 of the passengers were killed.

September 4th
The RAF raided German warships based in the Heligoland Bight (after "Athenia was sunk. No futher actions were taken).

September 24th
1,150 German aircraft bombed Warsaw

September 26th
The Luftwaffe attacked the Royal Navy at Scapa Flow.

September 27th
Poland surrendered to Germany.

October 6th
Last Polish troops ceased fighting. Hitler launched his "Peace Offensive" but this was rejected by Neville Chamberlain

October 14th
'HMS Royal Oak' is torpedoed at Scapa Flow by U-47

December 13th
The Battle of the River Plate was fought (AHA! Finally. France still doesn't do s***)

1940

February 14th
Britain announced that merchant ships in the North Sea would be armed.

February 15th
Germany announced that all British merchant ships would be classed as warships.

April 8th
The Royal Navy started laying mines in Norwegian waters.

April 9th
Germany invaded Denmark and Norway. The war in the west started and the ‘Phoney War’ ended.

May 10th
Germany invaded Holland, Belgium and Luxemburg. Churchill replaced Neville Chamberlain as British Prime Minister.

May 11th
Churchill gave Bomber Command permission to bomb Berlin.

May 13th
France attacked at Sedan.

Halyavshik
01-03-2005, 10:39
Originally posted by Ghost
Why would we defend Latvia? It has no oil.

According to Winston Wu, the girls there ain't too bad. Can we go to war for that ?

"Save the Latvian NATO girls ! Down with the evil Russian NATO-girl killers !"

crom
01-03-2005, 10:39
Mar 31 UK states "end of appeasement with Germany" (Treaty of mutual defense France/UK/Poland in place)

Aug 23 Nazi Soviet Non aggression pact signed

Sep 01 Germany blitzkriegs poland

Sep 03 France?UK declares war on germany

Sep 05 USA declares itself neutral

Sep 17 Russia also invades poland and Baltic states

Sep 29 Russia and Germany partitions the spoils

sparky
01-03-2005, 10:40
This chronology somewhat contradicts your assertion

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 10:41
and "Phoney war"
‘Phoney War’ is the name given to the period of time in World War Two from September 1939 to April 1940 when, after the blitzkrieg attack on Poland in September 1939, seemingly nothing happened. Many in Great Britain expected a major calamity – but the title ‘Phoney War’ summarises what happened in Western Europe – near enough nothing.

The term 'Phoney War' was first used, allegedly, by an American senator called Borah. Winston Churchill referred to the same period as the ‘Twilight War’ while the Germans referred to it as ‘Sitzkrieg’ – 'sitting war'.

The Phoney War refers to what happened in Western Europe between September 1939 and the spring of 1940. To assume that nothing was going on in Europe would be wrong as Poland was in the process of being occupied with all that brought for the Polish people. However, in Western Europe very little of military importance did take place. In fact, so little occurred that many of the children who had been evacuated at the start of the war, had returned to their families. To many, war had been declared by Chamberlain, but nothing was actually happening.

In fact, things were happening but the public in Britain were not aware of them – or very few were. The sinking of the ‘Athenia’ sent a clear message to Britain that Germany was prepared to sink passenger liners and not just ships of military importance. The sinking of the ‘Royal Oak’ also brought the war home to Britain. Such was the shock to the government of the ‘Royal Oak’s’ sinking that many people first learned about it from the broadcasts of Lord Haw-Haw.

At 09.00 am September 3rd, U-30 attacked the ‘Athenia’ which was bound for Canada. U-30's commander, Lemp, claimed that he believed that the ‘Athenia’ was a naval boat as it was sailing in a zigzag manner and in the poor light he could not differentiate between a liner and a naval vessel. Of the 1,102 passengers and 315 crew, 112 died. Germany attempted to shift the blame for the attack on the British by claiming that British intelligence, on the orders of Winston Churchill, had placed a bomb on board ‘Athenia’. In fact, U-boat commanders had been ordered not to attack passenger liners and Hitler himself issued an order that no further attacks should be made on passenger liners unless it was obvious that they were travelling in convoy.
During the Phoney War, Britain was also engaged in ‘bombing’ raids over Germany – but it was not bombs that were dropped but propaganda leaflets. Sir Kingsley Wood, Secretary of State for War, called them “truth raids”. The ‘raids’ served two purposes:

Ř The Germans would read about the evils of Nazi Germany

Ř It was show the leaders of Germany just how vulnerable their country was to bombing raids.

Millions of leaflets were dropped over Germany. On September 3rd alone, 6 million copies of “Note to the German People” were dropped in just one night – the equivalent of 13 tons of paper. The main result of these initial raids was that the Germans stepped up their anti-aircraft batteries.

While some politicians believed that the raids served a purpose, others in the military did not.

"It is certainly true that the general public would have liked a more robust response to the attack on Poland. If our bombers were capable of dropping leaflets, it was surmised, then they should be capable of dropping bombs on important industrial targets to let the Germans know that we meant business." Hugh Dalton

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 10:43
Originally posted by ElectricDave
This chronology somewhat contradicts your assertion like in what? are you trying to claim that Britain rushed to save its ally Poland? No. It only engaged in Naval raids after the British merchant ship was sunk.

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 10:45
Originally posted by Ghost
Why would we defend Latvia? It has no oil. Agree with Hal. Latvian chicks ARE hot. Something to die for?

sparky
01-03-2005, 11:45
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
like in what? are you trying to claim that Britain rushed to save its ally Poland? No. It only engaged in Naval raids after the British merchant ship was sunk.

Rather than just cut and paste from a website, read what was happening during the years 1939/1940 when Britain was busy arming itself ready for defending Europe. You have a very myopic view of actual events.

Militarily the UK was not in a position to ‘rush’ to the aid of its ally, which would have entailed passing through a heavily armoured Germany. It was 1939 it would have taken weeks/months to mobilise the armed forces.

The declaration of war gave the necessary domestics powers to redirect funds to support the effort that finally resulted in the overthrow of Nazism.

Ned Kelly
01-03-2005, 11:50
yes, and britain wasn't busy shipping raw materials to nazi germany through 1939-40 like one country was...

sparky
01-03-2005, 11:53
In fact Britain had to borrow money, mainly from the US, to fund the war effort, such was the commitment to overthrow Hiltler.

It was only recently that the debt was fully repaid.

Ned Kelly
01-03-2005, 11:57
just to take the other side for a moment, britain and france could easily have opened some sort of western front against germany, though it probably wouldn;t have been fast enough to save poland. they should have done it with the czechs though.

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 12:02
if you have a military alliance, and your ally is attacked you have to declare war and fight. period. that's why you need alliances. preparations should be done before. like Britain did not know Germany was going to attack. yet it hoped that germany would have been satisfied with Czechoslovakia, Poland and Russia.
now here is my point. Britain or US will never rush to save Latvia or any other country if this can envolve an all-out war, possibly nuclear. they simply have too much to lose. and there is no shame in running :)

DJ Biscuit
01-03-2005, 12:03
If Russia get a capital R then Britain gets a capital B.

;)

boscoe
01-03-2005, 12:04
preacher, try reading some history books that weren't wtitten by Russians...

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 12:05
Originally posted by DJ Biscuit
If Russia get a capital R then Britain gets a capital B.

;) point taken :)

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 12:05
Originally posted by boscoe
preacher, try reading some history books that weren't wtitten by Russians... like there is more truth in yours? hah

Ned Kelly
01-03-2005, 12:06
no-one will bother fighting russia. you've got to come to grips with it preacher - no-one gives a rat's about you any more (except maybe latvia ;))

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 12:14
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
no-one will bother fighting russia. you've got to come to grips with it preacher - no-one gives a rat's about you any more (except maybe latvia ;)) i wish that were true. if you only stopped lecturing us on democracy as well, that would be just perfect.

Ned Kelly
01-03-2005, 12:15
oh that's just for old times' sake!

koba65
01-03-2005, 13:19
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
if you have a military alliance, and your ally is attacked you have to declare war and fight. period. that's why you need alliances. preparations should be done before. like Britain did not know Germany was going to attack. yet it hoped that germany would have been satisfied with Czechoslovakia, Poland and Russia.
now here is my point. Britain or US will never rush to save Latvia or any other country if this can envolve an all-out war, possibly nuclear. they simply have too much to lose. and there is no shame in running :)

The guys over on Znamenka are waiting for your "splendid" strategic analysis... Molotov would be proud.

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 13:22
what's happening on znamenka?

aysihsK
01-03-2005, 13:24
yea what's on znamenka?? :D

DPG
01-03-2005, 13:25
Rosie O Grady's??!

koba65
01-03-2005, 13:35
Znamenka: www.mil.ru ;)

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 13:36
Ah! The Arbat Military District!

sparky
01-03-2005, 14:26
Originally posted by preacher of hedonism
if you have a military alliance, and your ally is attacked you have to declare war and fight. period. that's why you need alliances. preparations should be done before.

Why waste time with diplomacy, let’s just go for a pre-emptive strike, just in case :(

preacher of hedonism
01-03-2005, 15:01
i even know a country which does exactly what you have just said

sparky
01-03-2005, 15:13
enter Sparafucile - stage left

pirata
01-03-2005, 17:27
Latvia is what russians call a "whore country". In other words, whichever country pays them more or offers better deals, that's where they'll head. It wasn't any different during the WW II, when they surrended and even alied with the Nazis, until the Soviet Army kicked the **** out of the Nazi Army, chasing them all the way back home and then Latvians quickly sided with the soviets and surrended to their power. After Soviet Union broke down, Latvians quickly ran to NATO to get allied with them. It seems through all history that Baltic countries have had similar political behavior. Latvia is just the main "whore" of them all. What are they going to attack Russia with? Old cheese cannon balls and rotten cow meat? Can it be considered a "biological weapon"? :D :D :D

Big Bugga
01-03-2005, 17:47
yes, and who would have that little bosnia would have been the spark of the first world war...who would go to war for them...ah yes Russia...the curse the the alliance system. Thats what nato is isnt it, the alliance system that was the line of domino's that sent the world spiraling into world war. Fat old Arch-Duch Fraz Ferdinand and his portly wife just out for a drive visisting the little people...when BOOM some disgruntled lad tosses a bomb in his car...

those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it...is that how it go's?

Bugga'

Zephyr
13-03-2005, 23:40
I'd fight for Latvian fish !

Sadie
14-03-2005, 07:07
.