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Saratoviar
02-03-2010, 15:48
Hello again ,

I need to have a russian document saying that i need to have the police paper with good behavior, for applying trp.
With this document i can ask our Dutch governement to give me such a document.

Can u believe this ??
I couldnt believe my ears when they told it to me .

Does anyone know where i can get this russian " proof " ?

( why does it have to be so complicated )

SV1973a
02-03-2010, 16:05
Hello again ,

I need to have a russian document saying that i need to have the police paper with good behavior, for applying trp.
With this document i can ask our Dutch governement to give me such a document.

Can u believe this ??
I couldnt believe my ears when they told it to me .

Does anyone know where i can get this russian " proof " ?

( why does it have to be so complicated )

You DO NOT need a Russian document.
You, as a Dutch citizen, just are in contact with your own state structures.
Just explain them you need to get a proof that you have no convictions and are not subject of legal investigations.
It is you that needs to ask your own state officials, not the Russians.

Saratoviar
02-03-2010, 16:14
Just explain them you need to get a proof that you have no convictions and are not subject of legal investigations.
It is you that needs to ask your own state officials, not the Russians.

I was on the telephone with my lovely dutch governement 2 hours ago.
And they told they will not give this paper , untill i can proof that i need it .
So , i need some kind of proof.
Its really unbeleaveble .

SV1973a
02-03-2010, 16:22
I was on the telephone with my lovely dutch governement 2 hours ago.
And they told they will not give this paper , untill i can proof that i need it .
So , i need some kind of proof.
Its really unbeleaveble .

It is unbelievable.
But you certainly are not the first Dutchman to get the TRP !!!
You probably are not talking to the right persons.

Saratoviar
02-03-2010, 17:26
My wife will call the russian ambassy tomorrow.
Lets see what they say about it .

tvadim133
02-03-2010, 17:36
Bureaucrats are everywhere.

In Russiam it is quite simple actually.

You just go to Militia and get it.

rugbymad
02-03-2010, 17:38
The reason it is so difficult, is that the Russian government wants it to be that way. That must be the only explanation. And of course, being independent foreign states, they all work in different ways and have no compatibility in how they work.
So, these bureaucrats, who leech off us, only work against us, and not for us. I think they should all be herded into gas chambers and given what they deserve.
I've been doing the procedure for TRP since January. Every time I visit the clinics and talk to the poor hospital staff, they all say the same - "we don't see any reason to be testing you guys all the time either - the last thing we need is more work."
But of course, the chinovniks need the work, to justify their own miserable existence.
I dream about putting these people on a cross.

Larry Paradine
02-03-2010, 18:31
Saratoviar, you need a certificate that, in Dutch, has the initials VOG, and is issued by the Royal Netherlands Ministry of Justice. The Ministry's website is www.justitie.nl and I suggest you look there for information. There's also a website (www.infocubic.net/International/Netherlands.htm) that, among other things, offers its services in applying for and obtaining the document, but get all the info you need first from the Ministry's website.

Once you've got the certificate, your troubles are not over. I've posted somewhere on this site already, and so have other members, about the problems that can arise with translating the document. Much may depend on the wording. The Scottish Police issue a very simple document that just says the subject has no criminal record, but the England and Wales Police document is more ambiguous and has a disclaimer at the bottom that reads "This is not a certificate of good character", which literally translates into Russian as "...not a certificate of non-criminality." My wife and I were able to find a Russian language website that addressed this problem and offered a form of words that were acceptable to the Russian authorities, and I posted about that here about a year and a half ago (I think someone else has posted the info more recently). I've been told that VOG in Dutch means Certificate of Good Character: if so, you shouldn't have any translation difficulties.

I have a request: when you get the certificate, please post on this site telling us what sort of wording is used. I'm curious to know how different countries report that their nationals are not listed as convicted criminals on police computer records.

Saratoviar
02-03-2010, 18:40
Saratoviar, you need a certificate that, in Dutch, has the initials VOG, and is issued by the Royal Netherlands Ministry of Justice. The Ministry's website is www.justitie.nl and I suggest you look there for information. There's also a website (www.infocubic.net/International/Netherlands.htm) that, among other things, offers its services in applying for and obtaining the document, but get all the info you need first from the Ministry's website.

Once you've got the certificate, your troubles are not over. I've posted somewhere on this site already, and so have other members, about the problems that can arise with translating the document. Much may depend on the wording. The Scottish Police issue a very simple document that just says the subject has no criminal record, but the England and Wales Police document is more ambiguous and has a disclaimer at the bottom that reads "This is not a certificate of good character", which literally translates into Russian as "...not a certificate of non-criminality." My wife and I were able to find a Russian language website that addressed this problem and offered a form of words that were acceptable to the Russian authorities, and I posted about that here about a year and a half ago (I think someone else has posted the info more recently). I've been told that VOG in Dutch means Certificate of Good Character: if so, you shouldn't have any translation difficulties.

I have a request: when you get the certificate, please post on this site telling us what sort of wording is used. I'm curious to know how different countries report that their nationals are not listed as convicted criminals on police computer records.

Hello Larry , and thanks for your answer .

You are right , in Holland its called a VOG .
And it means Certificate of good behavior .

About posting my process , that i will do for sure.
I was planning to do that after i get my TRP , but this certificate i can do right after i get it .

I think it will be most interresting to see the process of TRP between moscow and other places in russia .

I will have a look on the webside .

Saratoviar
03-03-2010, 17:30
Can anyone give me a link to an official russian website with an english interface that states i need to have a Police criminal check .

It seems i need to print it , and sent it with my application.

Only i cant find this text anywhere .

I am getting desperate , and frustrated .

Bels
03-03-2010, 19:45
Yes you do need a police check from the central police department in your country for TRP. Yes it is essential. Search in translated Dutch language. Police check- Holland. There should be a website to apply for this. The website is likely to be your centrl police deparment.

Alternatively ask Ezik, who is Dutch and does have a TRP, and perhaps even permanent now. He is the best guy for advice in this particular subject. He isn't hard to find, as he is one of our admin here.

We actually need a sticky on here, on how to help Dutch. We already have it for Americans, British, And Canadians. But there appears to be good volume of Dutch here who also need help.

So to summarise. Ask Ezik in this case.

Saratoviar
03-03-2010, 20:01
Just sent Ezik a pm .
Thanks Bels !!

ezik
03-03-2010, 20:28
In my memory, they did indeed ask the "why" question about the VOG, and I sent them an email explaining why it was needed.

The source I used was http://www.legislationline.org/, a site on which the OCSE owns the copyrights to translations of international laws.

I tried the link I used two years ago, but it doesn't work. You might want to browse the site on keywords like "criminal record" etc, and I will try to in a few days, too.

Baseline is: when I gave information on this site as a source, the request of a VOG was simple. No more questions asked.

By the way, as per the Dutch WOB (Wet Openbaarheid Bestuur) law, you have every right to know about your status.

The request for a reason is a bureaucratic ritual. Just try to find something relevant on http://www.legislationline.org/ or else use your rights as a Dutch citizen. If they tell you "no", it will be interesting journalistic material that will make its way to relevant news sources and members of parliament.

Bels
03-03-2010, 20:39
This is the best search I could find for police checks in Holland. But obviously a native speaker of Holland of whom has had TRP already can give better advice. There are many Dutch people, but the one one I know best, and a very helpfull and nice person is Ezik.

Here it is. http://www.abika.com/Reports/Netherlands_Criminal_or_Civil_Court_Records.htm

Saratoviar
03-03-2010, 20:52
Thanks Ezik and Bels.
It would be a great help if u could find me the article u used.
I am not so familier with these kind of english text.
But i will do my best to find something .

Saratoviar
03-03-2010, 21:12
Do you think i can use this ?

http://www.legislationline.org/documents/action/popup/id/4189

Article 20

b)

ezik
03-03-2010, 21:18
Thanks Ezik and Bels.
It would be a great help if u could find me the article u used.
I am not so familier with these kind of english text.
But i will do my best to find something .

I'll check but it will take some time.
Dutch government cannot refuse you the VOG anyway.

ezik
03-03-2010, 21:21
Do you think i can use this ?

http://www.legislationline.org/documents/action/popup/id/4189

Article 20

b)

I think this is the same one I used. Very familiar. And if I were to apply for a VOG, it's this very article I would use. Yep, go for this one, I'd suggest.

Bels
03-03-2010, 21:39
Thanks Ezik and Bels.
It would be a great help if u could find me the article u used.
I am not so familier with these kind of english text.
But i will do my best to find something .

I shall try and put it into simple English. There is a must for you to apply for police record for yourself. You must apply and get it appostilled or in British language legalised. This is a must for the application of TRP.

To summarise. You must get your police enquiry done from your native country, stating that you have no criminal records on their database. That is a must . It must be then legalised or appostilled. You need this without doupt before you can apply for TRP. I repeat it is necassary. Do it and then visit your nearest FSM or as many Russians still call it OVIR.

ezik
03-03-2010, 21:58
Yep and take into account a 3 months' validity.
I got my dad to get it for me, using a trust paper thru the Embassy.
Some begging got me to get it quick.
Reason for requesting was definitely being the mentioned 20th article.
You need to get it, as Bels stated. There are no blockers. If you think there are, a visit to the Embassy may be a good idea. Lots of good people working there.


I shall try and put it into simple English. There is a must for you to apply for police record for yourself. You must apply and get it appostilled or in British language legalised. This is a must for the application of TRP.

To summarise. You must get your police enquiry done from your native country, stating that you have no criminal records on their database. That is a must . It must be then legalised or appostilled. You need this without doupt before you can apply for TRP. I repeat it is necassary. Do it and then visit your nearest FSM or as many Russians still call it OVIR.

Saratoviar
03-03-2010, 22:27
My wife sent me the numbers of the russian law .
Can i use these numbers on the site that u gave me Ezik ?
I have try'd that , but i didnt find it .



Federation low -
"about legal status foreing people in Russian Federation "
number - N 115-ФЗ

фз - федеральный закон (low)

Lasr redaction
4 декабря 2007 года N 328-ФЗ
- it was changing of this low ( 115)

as I understand low still has number 115

then thare is
"Resolution of State of Russian federation about giving permission to foreing people"
http://www.consultant.ru/online/base/?req=doc;base=LAW;n=76624#p63

ant there theris ordetr = how to give permission
ПОСТАНОВЛЕНИЕ ( = "Resolution )
от 1 ноября 2002 г. N 789
last redaction - от 23.09.2008 N ГКПИ08-1763)

Saratoviar
03-03-2010, 23:20
:celebrate:

I found proof !!

Its

FEDERAL LAW
NO. 115-FZ OF JULY 25, 2002
ON THE LEGAL POSITION OF FOREIGN CITIZENS
IN THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION.

http://www.russianvisa.org/www/russianvisaorg.nsf/e7d6175f95c1d6d0c3256d0c00238b44/9556203433bbf230c3256d2e004e42b5/$FILE/Federal%20Law%20%23%20115-FZ.pdf

article 6 .

point 5 .

5. As it considers an application from a foreign citizen for the issue of a permit for a temporary
residence, the territorial subdivision of the federal executive power body, controlling the questions
of internal affairs, shall direct inquiries to the security bodies, to the service of the officers of justice,
to the tax bodies, to the bodies for the social provision, for public health and for the migrational
service, as well as to the other interested bodies, which are obliged to supply information on the
existence or on the absence of the circumstances, preventing the issue to a foreign citizen of a
permit for a temporary residence.

Saratoviar
04-03-2010, 16:23
I found one more , just be be safe .



FEDERAL LAW
NO. 115-FZ OF JULY 25, 2002
ON THE LEGAL POSITION OF FOREIGN CITIZENS
IN THE RUSSIAN FEDERATION


Passed by the State Duma on June 21, 2002
Approved by the Federation Council on July 10, 2002


Article 7. Grounds for the Refusal in the Issue or for the Cancellation of a
Permit for a Temporary Residence
A permit for a temporary residence shall not be issued to a foreign citizen, and the earlier
issued permit for a temporary residence shall be cancelled, if the given foreign citizen:
1) comes out for a forcible change of the foundations of the constitutional system of the
Russian Federation, or creates by other actions a threat to the security of the Russian Federation
or of the citizens of the Russian Federation;
2) finances or plans terrorist (extremist) acts, renders assistance in committing such acts or
commits them himself, and also if he supports a terrorist (extremist) activity by other actions;
3) in the course of five years, preceding the day of his filing an application for the issue of a
permit for a temporary residence, was subject to a forcible expulsion out of the boundaries of the
Russian Federation or to deportation;
4) has submitted forged or counterfeit documents, or has supplied deliberately false
information about himself;
5) is convicted by a court sentence, which has come into legal force, for committing a grave or
an especially grave crime, or a crime whose repetition is recognized as dangerous;
6) has an unserved or not taken off criminal record for committing a grave or an especially
grave crime on the territory of the Russian Federation or outside of its borders, recognized as such
in conformity with the federal law;
7) was repeatedly (two and more times) in the course of one year brought to administrative
responsibility for a violation of the legislation of the Russian Federation in the part of ensuring the
regime of the stay (residence) of foreign citizens in the Russian Federation;
8) is unable to present proofs of the possibility to maintain himself and his family members in
the Russian Federation within the limits of the subsistence minimum, while not resorting to the
assistance of the state, with the exception of the case, when the foreign citizen is recognized as
incapable of working;
9) after an expiry of three years as from the day of his arrival has no living quarters on the
territory of the Russian Federation on the grounds, stipulated by the legislation of the Russian
Federation;
10) has gone out of the Russian Federation to a foreign state for a permanent residence;
11) is out of the boundaries of the Russian Federation for more than six months;
12) has married a citizen of the Russian Federation, which has served as a ground for
receiving a permit for a temporary residence, but this marriage is recognized by the court as invalid;
13) is ill with narcomania, or has no certificate on the absence of the illness, caused by the
virus of the human acquired immunodeficiency (HIV-infection), or suffers from one of the infectious
diseases, presenting a threat to other people. The list of such infectious diseases and the
procedure for confirming their existence or absence are approved by the Government of the
Russian Federation.

Article 7.6



Going to cityhall tomorrow morning , and start the VOG procedure .

Keeping my fingers crossed .

I printed 6 differend files , all have the same information.
:rules:

Saratoviar
05-03-2010, 17:13
My VOG procedure is on the way now .
Lady from cityhall told that after a systemcheck all looks ok.
she sent my request in digital form to the ministery of justice.
Its impossible to sent any proof that i need this police check as attachment.
She told that she will keep it if they have questions .
Now the long waiting starts .
I will have answer within 4 weeks.
:soccer:

Bels
05-03-2010, 22:03
Isn't a major ordeal dealing with Russian redtape for temporary, and permanent, redtape. The Russians must be really pissed off with Russian slow redtape, just the same as expats who who have the problems.

How on earth can we get on with enjoying the love of our wife, and or children, when we have so much redtape to deal with. Do this , do that , do this do that, travel here , travel there. pay here, and pay their.

Now I ask I ask the Russian goverment!! When can we have a family life and and be left alone to also earn some money. Redtape !!! Please leave us alone!! Or become more efficiant. I speak for both Russians and expats. Our Russian children!!! Do you you you honestly want them running around Moscow , paying large sums of money for check-ups. Why are your clinics not local? with all services? WHY?

Why should there be for example a gig ordeal of my son being registered as Russian and have a medical check locally. Why so much travelling and time consumtion, when we have to work to pay for such services. And why do we have to pay for such services , when it should be free . if paying national insurance? WHY!?

Saratoviar
12-03-2010, 13:58
:celebrate::celebrate:

My Certificate of good conduct just arrived !!!!

It took only one week , very fast.

I gues if you still want to make a guide for the dutch , this would be a good time to start it .

It can be written , as i do my steps in getting TRP.

Let me know please .

For now , i will celebrate today .

:10518:

Saratoviar
12-03-2010, 21:40
I gues its only about getting the Police clearence , the rest is the same for all of us .
I got a little to excited .
:fridaysign:

Bels
12-03-2010, 22:33
I wish you every success Saratoviar. Yes! Applying for TRP can be increasingly a big ordeal. When they say are making it easier from teh Federal point of view? They actually they are making it more difficult. I am stil going for my permanent, and everything from central FMS is outt of the window.

Also my guess is, that in Moscow Central is easier compared to the outside of Moscow., Due to Western style efficiency. But outside Moscow central it can be another story, where they ignore Federal law, and central FMS laws, are inefficient in answering the phone, using email etc. Every minor detail is a visit with long qeueu, with the likelyhood you won't be seen. There is no doubt that these local officials waste your time constantly. Whether you say you are losing vast sums of many wasting your time with them, or whether you say you have very young children to take care of, they dont care even if you have to spend thirty hours trying to get an interview with them.

Appointment!! What's an appointment? Good LUck!! And I hope you you are residnt in Central Moscow, where you might get a good efficiant service, and they ask you for what really is in law. And not ask you for the ridiculous.

Who are the Russian innocent family victims suffering through this. and who are the guilty parties? That is a very good question.


I gues its only about getting the Police clearence , the rest is the same for all of us .
I got a little to excited .
:fridaysign:

Saratoviar
12-03-2010, 22:45
Thanks Bels .

It will be interresting to see how its done outside Moscow .
Will keep all Expats informed.

Bels
12-03-2010, 23:21
Thanks Bels .

It will be interresting to see how its done outside Moscow .
Will keep all Expats informed.

Impossible. Every FMS is different. And every office worker is different. But most certainly impossible queues of where you can,t even visit to ask a question on that day is a major problem. As wellas the impossible tasks they tell you to do , of which is not on FMS legislation. Very time consuming. And as I said , they don,t know how to organise appointments, when queues are longer than what can be covered in a day.

I would be very intersted in knowing how you can investigate such things that are done so verbally and quetely.

Kelvi
13-03-2010, 20:29
Just a comment. My Dutch husband applied in the Netherlands for this Certificate of good behavior without any papers from Russia. We have a letter from Dutch Ministry of Justice for the reason “Immigration application to Russian embassy”.

Saratoviar
14-03-2010, 22:49
'strange , becouse the office that gives the police clearence say they really need it.
And wont give it withoud.
So for all after me , better play it safe and print the 2 law papers and the checklist from lawyers company as attachment for cityhall.

Bels
14-03-2010, 22:58
Confused! Can all these starange documents be apostilled. All FMS requires is a police statement that they don't see anything of you having a criminal record. This would come from your central police department , such as Scotland Yard in UK. It must be then appostilled. It must be appostilled. Al very simple as a demand.


'strange , becouse the office that gives the police clearence say they really need it.
And wont give it withoud.
So for all after me , better play it safe and print the 2 law papers and the checklist from lawyers company as attachment for cityhall.

Saratoviar
14-03-2010, 23:01
Well Bels , in holland it works different as usual.
We have a special office called COVOG to handle these documents.
And next we can go to court to get it apostilled .
MAKE SURE U HAVE A " WET SIGNATURE " , OR IT WILL NOT BE APOSTILLED IN SOME COURTROOMS !!!!!!!
This means not a signature that is put on with a scan , but done with a normal ballpoint.

Bels
14-03-2010, 23:13
That was why I was carefull with my words. Every country is different. Good luck on aplications from Holland. I am already aware that Dutch people have successfully applied for TRP. And with some perseverance you will have the results. Good Luck.


Well Bels , in holland it works different as usual.
We have a special office called COVOG to handle these documents.
And next we can go to court to get it apostilled .
MAKE SURE U HAVE A " WET SIGNATURE " , OR IT WILL NOT BE APOSTILLED IN SOME COURTROOMS !!!!!!!
This means not a signature that is put on with a scan , but done with a normal ballpoint.

Saratoviar
14-03-2010, 23:15
Thanks mate .
We will know it soon