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SV1973a
26-01-2010, 17:51
As most foreigners I do not have a patronymic, but I do have a father.
He is even mentioned on my birth certificate.
Now, if I take on RF Citizenship, will it be possible for me to get a patronymic (Just my father`s first name + ovich) like all native Russians have ?

FatAndy
26-01-2010, 19:04
Why not? What's your father name?

Vadim
26-01-2010, 19:22
At Peter the Great times migrants were normally assigned the only patronymic - IvanovIch. I have no clue why?

SV1973a
26-01-2010, 21:10
Why not?

Because they did not put a patronymic on my TRP stamp...
On all the documents that I had to fill in, instead of writing my patronymic, I just had to write `otetschtvo ne imeu`.


What's your father name?

Leovich

zingo
26-01-2010, 22:02
As most foreigners I do not have a patronymic, but I do have a father.
He is even mentioned on my birth certificate.
Now, if I take on RF Citizenship, will it be possible for me to get a patronymic (Just my father`s first name + ovich) like all native Russians have ?

No: You won't have any "patronymic". Even if you have 2 "first names", these 2 will be ONE "имя". You won't have any "отчество".

What you can do is, AFTER you get the RF citizenship, ask for a "name change", that can include your first name, last name even, and so ADD a patronymic. All your documents will be changed and only Russian administration will know "who you were" before changing name. The process is 100% legal.

So you can perfectly just ask to add an отчество and keep your first/last names.

FatAndy
26-01-2010, 22:08
If your father is Leo, then Russian equivalent is Lev and patronymic is L'vovich. Well, it's better to ask people from UFMS how they recommend to solve the question while getting citizenship.

Vadim
27-01-2010, 02:04
Guys, do you really need to make amendments to your names after applying for Russian nationality? I mean why Immigration doesn't assign patronymics by itself: it collects enough information about your parents. This procedure (someone posted above) when no patronymic was included, makes no sense to me, as it's A PART of the name. None can have a passport without his first name or surname. Patronymic is the same way important.

SV1973a
27-01-2010, 10:24
The most logical would be if FMS automatically would give the patronymic, as they know the name of my father (form the birth certificate).
But, you can not count on logic in this country.
If needed, I will make the `name change`, as I think that as a Russian you definitely need to have the patronymic.

Vadim
27-01-2010, 10:42
Which federal agency deals with citizenship applications? Is this Migration Service? It doesn't look to be their business. No logic :-) They could exclude some one from immigration control, but could they grant a nationality?

SV1973a
27-01-2010, 10:57
FMS deals with residences and citizenship.
Once you got the RF citizenship, you probably don`t need to deal with FMS any more.

Vadim
27-01-2010, 11:02
Why did I ask: it shouldn't be Immigration, the agency which gives citizenship must have a power to revoke it - just common sense. They cannot deal with Russian citizens. Interesting! Thanks.

FatAndy
27-01-2010, 11:48
At Peter the Great times migrants were normally assigned the only patronymic - IvanovIch. I have no clue why? - two suggestions:
1) Most popular name;
2) Into the honor of John the Baptist (Ioann Krestitel').

Vadim
27-01-2010, 12:09
No, really why? By the way, just recalled one fact about patronymics and foreigners: there were many trials after the Victory (war crimes) and prisoners, mainly Germans and Romanians were named with also patronymics in tribunal papers. However they had never been Soviet nationals.

FatAndy
27-01-2010, 12:33
were named with also patronymics in tribunal papers. However they had never been Soviet nationals. - bureaucracy rulez foreva...

Matt24
27-01-2010, 14:12
What happens if you, an otherwise straightforward Russian citizen, don't know the name of your father, say for instance your birth certificate says 'Sperm Donor' , 'Some sailors' or 'at the time, I was so P***ed, I didn't even know what my name was' - do you get free reign to pick a name? Or is there a ruling that authorities give you a name , or ,for instance, you have to used Grandpa's ?

apologies it's a slow afternoon

Matt

MissAnnElk
27-01-2010, 14:32
I have received mail here addressed to "Miss Ann Nopatr Elk."

No kidding.

FatAndy
27-01-2010, 14:33
If father is unknown, then mother defines patronymics on her wish. If both parents are unknown, then authorities define (for example, director of detdom or Dom rebenka).

FatAndy
27-01-2010, 14:37
Why kidding, they extract names from a kind of database, (semi)official one, and if in the field "Otchestvo" you have "Bez otchestva", you'll get it on the envelope.

SV1973a
27-01-2010, 15:18
Names can be a funny thing. Back in Europe, I had a guy from Congo working for me. His name was Omena Etshola. The strange thing is that actually none of these names was his first name, nor his family name. He just happened to have two names. Only when he came to Europe, he was forced to chose which one he would use as first name and which one as last name.
But this took us a little off topic.
Back to Russia now.

Vadim
27-01-2010, 16:38
They cannot leave patronymic field blank. It's mothers choice which to pick to pick up if no partner's present. However they can leave blank a field with father's full name. Officials cannot use a full father's name provided by mother without man's consent or a court paper.

andymackem
27-01-2010, 16:51
What happens if you, an otherwise straightforward Russian citizen, don't know the name of your father, say for instance your birth certificate says 'Sperm Donor' , 'Some sailors' or 'at the time, I was so P***ed, I didn't even know what my name was' - do you get free reign to pick a name? Or is there a ruling that authorities give you a name , or ,for instance, you have to used Grandpa's ?

apologies it's a slow afternoon

Matt

So surely you become Ivan Donorovitch, Ivan Moryakovich or Ivan Vodkovich?

I look forward to meeting Ivan Moscow Dragonsovich after a debauched night with the first XV. :-D

rosstis
28-01-2010, 15:14
As most foreigners I do not have a patronymic, but I do have a father.
He is even mentioned on my birth certificate.
Now, if I take on RF Citizenship, will it be possible for me to get a patronymic (Just my father`s first name + ovich) like all native Russians have ?

If you want to get the patronymic during the procedure of taking you into the RF citizenship, you should do 2 things:

1. Find a liberal translator and notary public in Russia and push them to make little deviation from the original text of your birth certificate. They can do this translation in such a way that in Russian wording would be additionally written point regarding the patronymic based on the name of your father.
You can push them to do so by explaining that such deviation in translation would not be a strictly speaking lying or misinterpretation, because your fatherís name is mentioned in your birth certificate and that according to Russian cultural traditions those people who have official fathers, they have thus fathersí names in the form of a patronymic. You can say that you like such Russian tradition and want to follow it.

2. Once you bring the official - notarized translation of your birth certificate with indication in Russian language of your patronymic to FMS officials, they must accept it. If they have any doubts, you can explain, that in Russia all the documents are officially recognized in Russian language, and it is not FMSís business to check how official translators and notaries do their business in Russia.
Additionally, in you application form for citizenship you should indicate your name with patronymic.

PS
This method has been proved recently in practice with a child from mixed parents.

Kartoshka
28-01-2010, 20:59
What you can do is, AFTER you get the RF citizenship, ask for a "name change", that can include your first name, last name even, and so ADD a patronymic. All your documents will be changed and only Russian administration will know "who you were" before changing name. The process is 100% legal.

If you did this, would you have to change your name on all your documents for your other nationality (presuming you retained your previous citizenship)?

zingo
28-01-2010, 21:16
If you did this, would you have to change your name on all your documents for your other nationality (presuming you retained your previous citizenship)?

You will be in Russia Mr New Name, and in your original country Mr Original Name. Your original country of course will NOT consider your new name!

Vadim
28-01-2010, 21:23
True. You can have different names in different passports. It could be confusing when checkin-in for the flights (some ask do you have a visa to Russia at registration, so you need to produce both), but can be easily explained.

rosstis
29-01-2010, 13:48
Agree that you can have different names in different passports because Russia currently does not have agrrements on dual citizenship with other contries which means that Russia recognizes in its territory you only as a Russian citizen with certain Russian name and ignores your other citizenships and your foreign names. As far as I know, the same principle works in other countries. So they do not care which passport and name in Russia you have.

SV1973a
27-03-2011, 10:15
I ask the question about `patronymic` to the girl at my FMS.
She said I will not get a patronymic when I receive RF citizenship, as there is no patronymic on my current documents.

I have heared from Russian friends, that once you are a citizen you have the right to chose your own name. Thus, you could chose yourself a patronymic as well. Only, this is after you are already granted citizenship, and not during the application process.

FatAndy
27-03-2011, 10:50
You can do uit with the next passport change.
BTW, some info how it can be in non-Russian-namings in Tuva:
http://www.centerasia.ru/issue/2009/39/2990-otchestvo-na-vibor-borisovich-ili-boris.html

morvich
27-03-2011, 20:13
I was talking to a Russian National, and she mentioned that at the age of 14, the child would go to a Government office, to formally declare the 'ovich, or the 'evna.
Is this the custom still? Is it done in Moscow, and if so where?

morvich

FatAndy
27-03-2011, 21:27
It is not custom, it's a law (receiving RF passport at 14 y.o.). But previously it is _already_ declared in the birth certifcate, if parents have Russian citizenship.

It is done at every "passport table" (old name), or FMS office (new name).


I was talking to a Russian National, and she mentioned that at the age of 14, the child would go to a Government office, to formally declare the 'ovich, or the 'evna.
Is this the custom still? Is it done in Moscow, and if so where?

morvich

Benedikt
28-03-2011, 06:45
As most foreigners I do not have a patronymic, but I do have a father.
He is even mentioned on my birth certificate.
Now, if I take on RF Citizenship, will it be possible for me to get a patronymic (Just my father`s first name + ovich) like all native Russians have ?

if for instance you are from Indonesia or Thailand, where many people have only one name, the family name, the same applies also here in Russia. What is written in your own passport, under that you will be known also in Russia. And if it is ok with you, rather not change. You know the bureaucrats here.How many documents you need. And on some it will be your 'old' name, some will have your 'new' name. why take on another headache.

SV1973a
28-03-2011, 08:21
if for instance you are from Indonesia or Thailand, where many people have only one name, the family name, the same applies also here in Russia. What is written in your own passport, under that you will be known also in Russia. And if it is ok with you, rather not change. You know the bureaucrats here.How many documents you need. And on some it will be your 'old' name, some will have your 'new' name. why take on another headache.

I am not convinced. New name would just be old name but with a patronymic, as is usual in Russia.

Willy
28-03-2011, 11:29
I think you can take any name you want, just tell them to change it.

tgma
29-03-2011, 10:31
I think this is a situation where, if you want a patronymic, you can probably get one, and in most cases, your document of citizenship will become your official name as far as Russia is concerned.
But you might want to investigate as to what, in Russia, constitutes your "real" name. It may well be that in the final analysis, Russia only recognises your birth certificate (duly translated and apostilled). Of course in 99% of cases, no one will worry about this, and no doubt the FMS official is not going to sweat you about this, although presumably they have their own procedure for taking a foreign name and turning it into a Russian one. I doubt very much you will ever have any problems with this, but you might get some idiot making problems for you down the line. But then, in Russia, if someone wants to make problems for you, they will do in any case, regardless of the law!

I don't think you will ever have any problems through not having a patronymic, and if I were in your shoes, I would just ask the FMS people what they normally do. For TRP, I got the feeling it was pretty much at the discretion of the girl who filled in your name when she stamped your passport. But she probably has to follow whatever is written on the form that you submitted.

SV1973a
29-03-2011, 10:57
I think this is a situation where, if you want a patronymic, you can probably get one, and in most cases, your document of citizenship will become your official name as far as Russia is concerned.

The girl at FMS said `no`(she was actually quite pretty, and said it in a very sexy way), I cannot get a patronymic when I apply for citizenship, because I don`t have a patronymic on my passport. I could get one once I am a RF citizen (though she did not tell me this), but why wouldn`t they gave it to me right from the beginning. All Russian citizens have one


although presumably they have their own procedure for taking a foreign name and turning it into a Russian one.

I am lucky with this. My name in Latin letters can be easily transcribed letter by letter into Cyrillic, and vice versa. No mistakes possible in this, and also no hilarious FMS-versions possible.


I don't think you will ever have any problems through not having a patronymic, and if I were in your shoes, I would just ask the FMS people what they normally do.

There probably is no `normal` because very few EU-citizens (not from USSR origin) apply for RF citizenship.
Not having a patronymic will not cause me difficulties, but quite often people have asked me what my patronymic is, and I always have to explain that I don`t have any. I believe this is almost of the same order as explaining that you don`t have a first name.

FatAndy
29-03-2011, 13:08
but why wouldn`t they gave it to me right from the beginning. - because it is out of existing (approved, signed and stamped with BKP) instruction. Doing smth out of existing instruction (or writing new one) is making decision. Making decision is the horror and nightmare for Russian bureaucracy (BTW not only Russian), because it means responsibility. Nobody wants to put responsiblity on their weak shoulders. Pretty easy...

NLD
29-03-2011, 17:59
My wife (she's Russian) prepended my surname to hers last year, so it's apparently possible to do that at any time.

They first transliterated my surname back to English "wrongly", as my Dutch surname can be transliterated several ways. However, by showing our marriage certificate (original Dutch/English/etc. with Russian translation) she also got that fixed. If you really want to go for Leovich e.g., that should thus also be possible.

It seems to me a patronymic is not required for Russian-born citizens either. I've regularly seen forms saying "otchestvo (esli est)", and my wife claims our future kids will not need to have a patronymic (because of my Dutch name it would sound rather weird too).

For me, it's also not that much of a bother to say I don't have a patronymic, but that I have two forenames instead.

SV1973a
29-03-2011, 19:56
My wife (she's Russian) prepended my surname to hers last year, so it's apparently possible to do that at any time.
They first transliterated my surname back to English "wrongly", as my Dutch surname can be transliterated several ways. However, by showing our marriage certificate (original Dutch/English/etc. with Russian translation) she also got that fixed. If you really want to go for Leovich e.g., that should thus also be possible.

Yes, but both examples were for persons that already had Russian citizenship.


It seems to me a patronymic is not required for Russian-born citizens either. I've regularly seen forms saying "otchestvo (esli est)", and my wife claims our future kids will not need to have a patronymic (because of my Dutch name it would sound rather weird too).

No, it is strictly speaking not a requirement. My children DO have a patronymic, although I have a foreign first name. Luckily, it sounds OK in Russian. It is even a bit `exotic`.

SV1973a
31-03-2011, 09:07
I received the answer to my question from a migration lawyer, working for a well respected consultancy company. Just wanted to share it with the members on the forum.

Please be informed that, in accordance with standard practice when issuing Russian passports for foreigners who have received Russian citizenship, the information in the new Russian passport should be given exactly as it was in the individual's foreign passport.
This is stated in cl.1, art.19 of the Civil Code of the Russian Federation:

"A citizen shall acquire and effectuate rights and duties under his own name, including surname and own forename, and also patronymic unless it arises otherwise from a law or national custom."

Following this legal provision, officials at the Federal Migration Service state names in Russian passports exactly as they are given in foreign passports. Officials will not issue a passport with a patronymic if the individual's original foreign identification document did not give a patronymic.

We have been through this procedure previously with foreign clients, and they all received their Russian passports without a patronymic name.

However once you have obtained your new passport without a patronymic, you would be able to change your name (i.e. to include a patronymic) in accordance with art.58 of the Federal Law № 143-FZ dated November 15, 1997 On act of civil status:

"A citizen who has reached the age of 14 may change his name including first name surname and/or patronymic name."