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Ned Kelly
03-02-2005, 10:43
sorry to the irish contingent (and what was no doubt initially a just cause), but these guys look like rank crooks these days. i can't believe they want to bail out after coming so far....******s!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4231237.stm

DPG
03-02-2005, 11:02
A real pity.

Realistically though, I think most suspected from the outset that they weren't going to turn in a single bullet, let alone all their arms.

Let's just hope the situation in Northern Ireland (an on the mainland of Britain) doesn't revert to what it once was as a result of this reversal.

Andy B
03-02-2005, 11:21
Sad but true, must agree with you DPG! If they really were going to decommission, they would have done it years ago!

DPG
03-02-2005, 11:28
I think it's this bank robbery business that really both has them penned in, and has given their game away.

The IRA previously existed financially mainly on money streaming (FLOWING) in from sympathisers (and its own 'exiles') the USA. With Bush in office, whose primary international concern is the war on terror, this is competely dried up and they were forced to find another source of funding, hence, the renewed criminal activity.

The above is something that Bush has done far far better than Clinton - under Clinton, it appeared that the donations were almost encouraged!

trebor
03-02-2005, 11:34
I think the problem is also the IRA is split and its harder to define exactly who they are these days. Adams and Mc.Guiness are finding it very difficult to represent an organisation which does fully support them.
The upside is that no one is reading into this a return to terrorist activities by the IRA........................lets hope they are right.

DPG
03-02-2005, 11:36
I hope so too.

However, one can't help but wonder why a terrorist organisation would need the kind of funds they took from the bank if they weren't planning some form of return to activity...

ghost 6-3
03-02-2005, 12:43
I assume no one goes for the 'Pension Fund' theory - the IRA robbed the bank to provide for retirement for otherwise unemployable bombers?

The decommissioning thing is a bargaining ploy. The IRA knows how to negotiate.

Ned Kelly
03-02-2005, 12:55
i remember reading an argument that if the uk had applied bush's pre-emptive strike theory on supporters of terrorists it would have resulted in the leveling of the east coast of the us!

85StoneWhiteFurball
03-02-2005, 13:00
My conspiracy theory: The IRA knows that its time is up as a guerilla force. However, like all extremist groups, it is made up largely of unemployed and unemployable louts who will not have much of a future once there is peace.

Therefore, like the Sicilian Mafia and Neapolitan Camorra, both of which also started out as guerilla paramilitaries, the IRA wishes to keep its weapons so as to begin a new line of business - committing crimes along the lines of the recent bank robbery.

Random
03-02-2005, 13:03
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
i remember reading an argument that if the uk had applied bush's pre-emptive strike theory on supporters of terrorists it would have resulted in the leveling of the east coast of the us!

Yep Noraid has a lot to answer for ......

trebor
03-02-2005, 13:07
I wondered how long it would take for the blame for Irish problem to fall at the feet of George Bush too!:D

Andy B
03-02-2005, 13:18
Was going to mention it earlier but do not know enough about it to hold a credible argument (not that that stops most people on this site!)...

Andy B
03-02-2005, 13:20
Sorry, that was too harsh... "some" people on this site!

trebor
03-02-2005, 13:24
Originally posted by Andy B
Was going to mention it earlier but do not know enough about it to hold a credible argument (not that that stops most people on this site!)...

Don't let a minor detail like that stop you Andy B!:)

Ned Kelly
03-02-2005, 14:30
Originally posted by trebor
Don't let a minor detail like that stop you Andy B!:)

yes, trebor never does!

trebor
03-02-2005, 14:36
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
yes, trebor never does!

BITCH FIGHT!:D

Ned Kelly
03-02-2005, 14:40
anyway trebor, do you think the uk should start bombing the east coast of the us immediately to eliminate any residual potential financial support for a renewed ira campaign in line with w.'s pre-emptive theory?

rupert
03-02-2005, 14:44
I think we should have a programme of indefinite detention of US citizens, just in case they are supporting terrorists

trebor
03-02-2005, 15:18
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
anyway trebor, do you think the uk should start bombing the east coast of the us immediately to eliminate any residual potential financial support for a renewed ira campaign in line with w.'s pre-emptive theory?

Ned,
have you been drinking AGAIN! :rolleyes:

Ned Kelly
03-02-2005, 15:27
ah robert, one of the positive things to come out of 9/11 is that few people have any illusions about terrorists/freedom fighters any more and i doubt there will be money coming from the east coast of the us.

trebor
03-02-2005, 17:11
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
ah robert, one of the positive things to come out of 9/11 is that few people have any illusions about terrorists/freedom fighters any more and i doubt there will be money coming from the east coast of the us.

Better Ned!
a far more intelligent statement and one with which i agree. Perhaps the IRA are supplementing their meagre earnings these days from Noraid with the occasional bank job.
Many people, including on this site, refuse to admit there is a war on terrorism and yes, G.W's war has had a benificial effect on the problems in N.Ireland.

PS. Now stand back and watch all the Bush haters go into a frenzy over that!:D

Ned Kelly
03-02-2005, 17:16
Originally posted by trebor
[B]Better Ned!B]

don't go getting gay on me, trebor...save that for dima in yakutia!

anyway, good friday was in april '98, slightly before w.'s advent.

trebor
03-02-2005, 17:21
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
ah robert, ..................


Ned, your getting a little too familiar. Are we on first name terms now! : :D

trebor
03-02-2005, 17:26
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
..............anyway, good friday was in april '98, slightly before w.'s advent.

Good Friday WAS before GW's assent and during Clinton's watch but actualy that's irrelevant.
Bush's activities post 9/11 have had a beneficial impact on the peace process in N. Ireland

P&M
03-02-2005, 17:38
I may be wrong, but I thought NORAID had been excluded from the US list of subversive organizations supporting terrorism as it would have cost too many 'green' votes. Amazing how little you hear about the IRA from 'W' - he is happy to pontificate about ETA and the Corsican seperatists who are are mere babes compared to the IRA.

Sad that it took 11/9 for the Yanks to learn that supporting terrorism never pays. Now to hope that the IRA/Sinn Fein will be treated as terrorist scum rather than statesmen. However, while people like Mandela (imprisoned for planting bombs) and Arafat (remember Rome airport?) are still lauded as 'freedom fighters' there is little hope that the IRA will not continue their hypocritical 'bombs and ballot box' strategy. Nobody who is prepared to condone or support the killing of innocent people, regardless of how noble their cause, should be allowed to participate in any political process - murder is criminal. period.

trebor
03-02-2005, 17:46
Originally posted by P&M
.........he is happy to pontificate about ETA and the Corsican seperatists.......

I can't say i have heard him pontificating about either.

Ned Kelly
03-02-2005, 21:48
Originally posted by P&M
I may be wrong, but I thought NORAID had been excluded from the US list of subversive organizations supporting terrorism as it would have cost too many 'green' votes. Amazing how little you hear about the IRA from 'W' - he is happy to pontificate about ETA and the Corsican seperatists who are are mere babes compared to the IRA.

Sad that it took 11/9 for the Yanks to learn that supporting terrorism never pays. Now to hope that the IRA/Sinn Fein will be treated as terrorist scum rather than statesmen. However, while people like Mandela (imprisoned for planting bombs) and Arafat (remember Rome airport?) are still lauded as 'freedom fighters' there is little hope that the IRA will not continue their hypocritical 'bombs and ballot box' strategy. Nobody who is prepared to condone or support the killing of innocent people, regardless of how noble their cause, should be allowed to participate in any political process - murder is criminal. period.

p&m you made me laugh for making trebor squirm but made me squirm when i read what you said about mandela. what bollocks. there can be differences.

P&M
04-02-2005, 21:16
Ned

If you can find a single valid reason for killing innocent people, please post. Otherwise, accept that Mandela was/is a terrorist - someone prepared to use lethal violence to achieve a political end. As soon as you allow exceptions, you permit scum like Bashaev; McGuiness et al scope to justify themselves.

Ned Kelly
04-02-2005, 23:41
so he should have accepted apartheid? i think he fought the most just struggle since the end of the second world war.

you're strangely silent on state violence, too. or is that always legitimate?

kniga
05-02-2005, 12:26
Ned,

The end justifies the means? You're better than this!

trebor
05-02-2005, 13:02
P&M,
Some wars are just and some are not. The fight against aparthied was a just one and only undertaken after all other means had failed.
How would you describe people who fight against an illegal occupier like the resistance in France during the second world war. Their methods were exactly the same as a terrorist organisation. Would you describe THEM as terrorist? and would you therefore say that their cause didn't justify the use of violence?

kniga
05-02-2005, 14:07
Trebor,

There is no one on this site you have not annoyed at one time or another, so you may rest easy on that score. You annoy me because sometimes your responses are really interesting, well though out and though provoking. At other times your comments border on the...well, let's just say that it is like two different people responding. So, would you please refrain from so much vacilating and be either an annoying zhopishnik or an entertaining intellect.

Ned Kelly
05-02-2005, 16:01
Originally posted by kniga
Ned,

The end justifies the means? You're better than this!

not sure i'm better, you find i'm quite a lot worse!

i am a believer in process and negotiation. i hate the idea of lost generations from years of fighting: kids/adults who lose all connection with civilisation in education and behaviour, and the business/mafia that arise out of these sorts of campaigns.

i guess in my mind apartheid was so ahorrent that i can only find an emotional response. i cannot be objective.

for the same reason, as much as i respect reagan and thatcher as great politicians of their era, i despise their giving succour to south africa in the 80s.

koba65
05-02-2005, 19:26
Originally posted by DPG
The IRA previously existed financially mainly on money streaming (FLOWING) in from sympathisers (and its own 'exiles') the USA. With Bush in office, whose primary international concern is the war on terror, this is competely dried up and they were forced to find another source of funding, hence, the renewed criminal activity.

The above is something that Bush has done far far better than Clinton - under Clinton, it appeared that the donations were almost encouraged!

Actually a lot of the IRA funding from the USA (reprehensible as it is/was) was cut off during Reagan's terms of office. Clinton may have turned a blind eye to it, not sure on that one. IRA had been receiving the majority of its funding (90s to the present) from FARC guerrillas in Columbia (some sort of deal regarding the sale of cocaine and heroin). FARC's ability to raise money through drug trafficking has been seriously hampered by joint (hah, no pun intended) Columbian and US efforts to erradicate the crops.

In the 70s and early 80s (up until Reagan) it was common for Irish pubs and bars in New England to have collection jars with a picture of a little "starving" Catholic Irish girl. I seem to recall something about trying to shut down NORAID, but it still remains a 501(c) charitable organization. New Englanders, especially politicians (the Kennedy's, John Kerry, etc) pander to the misplaced Irish-American "outrage" about Catholics in Northern Ireland. A lot of the Catholic Irish-Americans have an overromanticized view of what the IRA is really all about. 9/11, of course, hit the organization hard. These same "supporters" of the IRA fail to see that organization's connections to other world terrorist organizations that target Americans.

I took a trip to Ireland in 1989 and visited N. Ireland (to see where my Scots-Irish ancestors came from). I must say it reminded my of East Berlin/West Berlin with the checkpoints and "peace fence/wall" was a bit shocking to see in the UK. The people also seemed to have that glazed over 1000 mile stare common for "war zones." Shame people like Gerry Adams and Ian Paisley use the lil' folk to gain power, prestige, and $$$.

Ironically, the great portion of Irish settlers in the US (Pennsylvania, Maryland, Virginia [plus, present day West Virginia], North Carolina, etc.) were Scots-Irish, i.e., protestants.

koba65
05-02-2005, 19:35
Originally posted by P&M
I may be wrong, but I thought NORAID had been excluded from the US list of subversive organizations supporting terrorism as it would have cost too many 'green' votes. Amazing how little you hear about the IRA from 'W' - he is happy to pontificate about ETA and the Corsican seperatists who are are mere babes compared to the IRA.

Sad that it took 11/9 for the Yanks to learn that supporting terrorism never pays. Now to hope that the IRA/Sinn Fein will be treated as terrorist scum rather than statesmen. However, while people like Mandela (imprisoned for planting bombs) and Arafat (remember Rome airport?) are still lauded as 'freedom fighters' there is little hope that the IRA will not continue their hypocritical 'bombs and ballot box' strategy. Nobody who is prepared to condone or support the killing of innocent people, regardless of how noble their cause, should be allowed to participate in any political process - murder is criminal. period.

"American president George Bush has welcomed the IRA's decision to begin decommissioning its weapons.
He said the move was an historic step by the IRA.

"The people of Northern Ireland are now measurably closer to the lasting peace which they richly deserve."

President Bush said he now wanted to see all paramilitary groups in Northern Ireland move towards total decommissioning leading to the "full functioning" of the Good Friday Agreement. "

BTW, Americans always understood terrorism, 9/11 was NOT the first attack on Americans by terrorists, and NOT the first terrorist attack on American soil. It was the scale of the attack that was shocking.

koba65
05-02-2005, 19:42
Originally posted by P&M
I may be wrong, but I thought NORAID had been excluded from the US list of subversive organizations supporting terrorism as it would have cost too many 'green' votes. Amazing how little you hear about the IRA from 'W' - he is happy to pontificate about ETA and the Corsican seperatists who are are mere babes compared to the IRA.

Sad that it took 11/9 for the Yanks to learn that supporting terrorism never pays. Now to hope that the IRA/Sinn Fein will be treated as terrorist scum rather than statesmen.

"When they came to the US after their own ceasefire in October 1994, loyalists were stunned by the welcome they got from Irish Americans. "I thought they were all Provos," Joe English, the former loyalist paramilitary leader admitted at Boston College. He and other loyalists had believed the myth that most Irish Americans were IRA sympathizers. That myth, no doubt delayed by years the development of a real peace process."

kniga
05-02-2005, 22:43
Ned,

It is facile to say that one man's patriot is another man's terrorist. The question here is whether or not killing innocents is justified for even the most noble cause.

trebor
06-02-2005, 15:05
Originally posted by kniga
Trebor,

There is no one on this site you have not annoyed at one time or another, so you may rest easy on that score. You annoy me because sometimes your responses are really interesting, well though out and though provoking. At other times your comments border on the...well, let's just say that it is like two different people responding. So, would you please refrain from so much vacilating and be either an annoying zhopishnik or an entertaining intellect.

Thanks for the vote of confidence!:D

kniga
06-02-2005, 15:25
trebor,

Have I managed to annoy you? Sorry, just passing the time of day and couldn't resist your opening line. :-)

trebor
06-02-2005, 17:02
Annoy me? Impossible!:D

Which opening line by the way? :)

kniga
06-02-2005, 18:07
Trebor,

Your throwaway tagline: "If there is still anyone on this site who i HAVE NOT annoyed yet, please let me know and i promise i'll get to you as soon as i can!"

trebor
06-02-2005, 18:38
............................oh, that one!:)

koba65
07-02-2005, 09:50
More IRA handiwork:
"THEY call it the Padre Pio, and even by the sinister standards of Belfast punishment beatings it is grotesque.

At least three teenagers are known to have fallen victim to the IRA's latest mutilation technique: with their hands tied together as if in prayer, they are shot through both palms with a single bullet from point-blank range.

Named after the stigmata of Christ's wounds from the Cross, the punishment is designed to teach a lesson to youths who dare challenge their local IRA leaders.

Given the strong Roman Catholicism of republican areas of Belfast, the symbolism of the attacks is lost on nobody.

Padre Pio was an Italian monk who was said to have borne stigmata on his hands for 50 years.

The victims, aged 17 to 19, are believed to have been shot because they took on the wrong people with their fists and their tailor-made punishments were selected precisely because they were "good with their hands".

At least two were shot after being involved in fights with people from republican families. In a practice known as "exiling", one of the victims a 17-year-old from the Short Strand district of East Belfast has also been told to leave Northern Ireland and that if he ever returns he will be killed. According to neighbours, he has been told by doctors he will never regain the use of fingers on one hand.

The attacks all of which took place after the IRA's alleged involvement in a 26.5 million ($64.7 million) bank robbery before Christmas have been used by Bertie Ahern, the Irish Prime Minister, as proof of the utter disregard by Sinn Fein and the IRA for democratic politics.

He has accused the Provisionals of deliberately "turning on and off" punishment beatings to suit the republican movement's wider political agenda. Loyalist and republican terrorists continue to engage in punishment beatings, but the fact that the Padre Pio attacks have happened at a time of serious crisis for the peace process has enraged Unionists.

Amid growing signs that the British and Irish governments are not prepared to tolerate IRA misdemeanours any longer, Mr Ahern last week linked the Provisionals to four other recent robberies.

In a sign of the times for republicanism, a senior IRA figure is suspected of killing a 33-year-old man in a pub brawl in Belfast last weekend. He has been released without charge, but an investigation is continuing.

The IRA is believed to make up to 20 million a year through criminal activities including theft, fuel smuggling, selling contraband cigarettes and pirating DVDs.

Sinn Fein chief negotiator Martin McGuinness said the decision by British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Mr Ahern to blame the IRA for the 26.5 million robbery of the Northern Bank had "scuttled" any chance of the IRA disarming.

The group said in a statement last week that any plans to scrap the rest of its arsenal were now off the table and that both governments had "tried our patience to the limit"."

Yep, the good ol' IRA always lookin' out for the lil' guy. At least there isn't a big gang problem in the North, oh, wait a minute, never mind. How dare the governments accuse them of doing what they've done over the years! And they've been so patient.