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Larry Paradine
26-11-2009, 20:29
Today, after months of shilly-shallying, I finally decided to apply for an entrepreneur's licence and went to the office of the mig. sluzh. that deals with such matters, only to find that they'd moved since my last visit. By the time I got to the new location there was just half an hour to closing time and long queues outside every door, but I thought it advisable to check which queue I should join even if I had to go back there again next week. I found signs giving info about which offices dealt with work permits (разрешение на работу), exit visas and other things, but nothing that looked even remotely like entrepreneurs' licences. In a case like that, the obvious thing to do is ask people in the queues but, although I tried various combinations, e.g. лицензия для предпринимателя, лицензия для антрепренёр, разрешение на самостоятельной работу, I got nothing but blank looks and a few poorly suppressed sniggers for my pains. My Russian wife doesn't speak English, so it's no use asking her, my big dictionaries were compiled in Soviet days when self employment was officially non-existent, I've just had a quick flick through threads and posts in this forum dealing with entrepreneurs' licences but expat and Russian members alike have only used the English version,at least as far as I can see. Can anyone, perhaps a native English speaking person with a Russian spouse who (unlike mine) knows English, fill this lacuna in my knowledge? Thanks.

Bels
26-11-2009, 22:20
Please don't tell me :) I told you so :) Go for a lawyer or legal company specialised in this area. Now if you are aware of my previous posts I am normally against using third parties.

But please believe me, this is beyond evan a Russian wife used to dealing with red-tape.

You will need legal assistance in this case, as it is beyond the comprehension of a normal Russian professial spouse used to Russian and international red-tape, and therefore you do need this legal assistance to also have couriers to deal with the confusing queues that an individual can't possibly deal with.

You will as an individual would have to experience being behind these couriers holding papers coming from many clients. Not a good idea, as you might well find out that will be going home without being seen.

Also in this case may I ask for recommendations of such legal advisors, as my wife can only advise one who is prepared to deal with the Odentsova are.

I do emphasise that it is almost impossible for an individual to get an entrepeneurs' licence totally on their own. The whole wording of the entrepeneurs,s licence are absolute legal garbage in wording, and that is a Russian legal translators point of view, my wife.

So to put it it in a nutshell. You do need legal assistance who have a regular couriers' service going to the tax office.

Are there any recommendations for such specialist legal advisers with couriers in Moscow? I did state Accontants before, but my wife has put me right in this one, there are no Russian accountants who are qualified in business law in Russia. In this case advertisements or recommendations from such legal specialists would be most welcome, especially if you offer a nice price. Let the Russian spouse negotiate on the price :) Not you expats :)
We are not all rich , believe me, although we are trying very hard to be rich here.

tgma
27-11-2009, 10:32
I have no direct experience of this, but my feeling is that it's not the FMS that deals with the "entrepreneur without creating a legal entity" "ПБОЮЛ", as I think the acronym. My guess would be that you need to register with your local tax office, just like any Russian would - i.e. this is not a matter for the FMS, but it's a question of having a particular tax status in this country. Once you have this established, you may or may not have to show this to the FMS, depending on whether you're on a temporary residence permit, or a permanent resident. Again, I'm not an expert at all.

As for agencies, I can give you the names of a couple of agents that can help you. One is the lawyers that we use for managing our on-shore OOO, the other is a translater/notary/agent that I use sometimes for various documents for the FMS.

Larry Paradine
27-11-2009, 12:34
Perhaps I should have phrased my question differently: something like "What's Russian for entrepreneur's licence?". I'll give tgma's suggestion (ПБОЮЛ) a try, but I still think the миграционная служба must have a hand in this, so I may need to deal with two sets of bureaucrats. So far my wife and I have managed to avoid the use of third parties but, if I need a specialist, I won't have far to look, there's generally at least one lawyer's agent hanging round every government office on the lookout for clients. As you will see from my "location", I don't live in or anywhere near Moscow, so I can't make use of the contacts you've so kindly offered me.

tasha3004
27-11-2009, 15:19
ПБОЮЛ does not exist in Russia any longer. It is ИП (private entrepreneur) now. To be able to apply for this you need to have a TRP (temporary residence permit) at least and this is the only part where FMS is involved. Then it is tax authorities that you will have to deal with. The process is pretty much simple and straightforward. The only thing which will definitely annoy you is queue.
here are the links that might be useful for you:
? (http://www.r77.nalog.ru/cons.php?id=169470&topic=cons77_2)
. (http://www.bishelp.ru/svoe_delo/form/0809ip.php)
Оформление индивидуального предпринимателя, инструкция - Kuratov.Ru (http://kuratov.ru/blog/entry/oformlenie-individualnogo-predprinimatelya-izgotovlenie-saitov/)
good luck!

Larry Paradine
28-11-2009, 18:48
Огромное спасибо таша3004!!

Kvartiraokhotnik
29-11-2009, 11:33
ПБОЮЛ does not exist in Russia any longer. It is ИП (private entrepreneur) now. To be able to apply for this you need to have a TRP (temporary residence permit) at least and this is the only part where FMS is involved. Then it is tax authorities that you will have to deal with. The process is pretty much simple and straightforward. The only thing which will definitely annoy you is queue.
here are the links that might be useful for you:
? (http://www.r77.nalog.ru/cons.php?id=169470&topic=cons77_2)
. (http://www.bishelp.ru/svoe_delo/form/0809ip.php)
Оформление индивидуального предпринимателя, инструкция - Kuratov.Ru (http://kuratov.ru/blog/entry/oformlenie-individualnogo-predprinimatelya-izgotovlenie-saitov/)
good luck!


Great links Natasha - Thank you.

So, as I understand from the links, foreigners with TRP dont require a work permit to get entrepreneurs license. The one thing that confused me was it mentioned going to the tax office with an audit every 3 months - and all my mates out here with И.П told me that they took the money from your account automatically, and the audit ws necessary every year, not every 3 months.

Anyway, I'm sure things will become clearer when i give one of these companies a call and ask next week. I'll let you know how it goes.

Still not certain whether i should be going back to ФМС soon, as its the end of my first year of TRP. If anyone has any info about this also, I would be much obliged. :bowdown:

Bels
29-11-2009, 21:00
Great links Natasha - Thank you.

So, as I understand from the links, foreigners with TRP dont require a work permit to get entrepreneurs license. The one thing that confused me was it mentioned going to the tax office with an audit every 3 months - and all my mates out here with И.П told me that they took the money from your account automatically, and the audit ws necessary every year, not every 3 months.

Anyway, I'm sure things will become clearer when i give one of these companies a call and ask next week. I'll let you know how it goes.

Still not certain whether i should be going back to ФМС soon, as its the end of my first year of TRP. If anyone has any info about this also, I would be much obliged. :bowdown:

I am sorry if I might have been the individual who confused you. But everybody's individual's situation is different, But I do keep clearly stating that entrepeneurs' licence is not required for those who want to be, or are employed with a proper employee's contract. And who do have a work permit.

But if there is a problem for work permit, then entrepeneurs' licence might be an option, in regards to working for your company, Yes the major concern is paying your taxes, and how, and entrepeneurs license is linked to the tax office, not FSM

I stil stand by my words that application is not as simple as it first appears. We normally believe in doing such matters ourselves, but in this cas for entrepeneurs' licence we used professional assistance with couriers, look at my history of posts, I am normally against using third parties when it is not neessary. But in this case yes it is a big headache. And my wife is a professional normally in red-tape such matters. Yes it can be frustratiing without the aid of a professional with couriers.

Larry Paradine
29-11-2009, 22:08
Kvartiraokhotnik, re. your question about the mandatory annual review of a TRP: I received my TRP 13 months ago and was told that, after a year, I would have to go to OVIR and show proof (tax receipts, etc.) that I'd been working and paying tax for at least six of the previous twelve months; failure to do so could result in the cancellation of my TRP. It's been a bad year (crisis and all that) and I've worked less than the required six months, having been obliged to dig deep into my savings, so I haven't been in any hurry to keep the appointed rendezvous: I assumed I'd be notified when to appear, but my wife thinks I'm supposed to go there without waiting to be summoned, so I've decided to bite the bullet and go this week. If you get to the end of your 12 month period and hear nothing, it might be advisable to make the first move; I've a nagging feeling I'm going to be penalised for the delay.

As BELS says, the entrepreneur's licence is the alternative to working as an employee. I can only work as a teacher, as I don't have a work permit, and teaching work with schools or universities in this neck of the woods is hard to come by at present. There are opportunities for teaching executives of private companies, but they can't officially employ foreign teachers, and there are even a few, a very few, opportunities for working in a non-teaching field, and an entrepreneur's licence seems to be the only solution to this impasse.

Anyway, my thanks for the useful information everyone; tomorrow I'll go to the налоговый, hoping to get everything sorted out myself but , more realistically, expecting to have to be more polite to the ubiquitous lawyers' reps than I usually am.

Kvartiraokhotnik
03-12-2009, 22:15
Thanks for the info Larry.

I feel your pain, and i'd be really interested to hear how it went this week. 6 month tax audit??? surely its not illegal in Russia to be unemployed ??? Why not live off savings when times are tough? It seems to me they cant demand that you work....but im no legal expert!

I'll have to start twisting some nuts in the office to get an annual tax audit, so i sure hope its not necessary.

Bels
03-12-2009, 22:43
Thanks for the info Larry.

I feel your pain, and i'd be really interested to hear how it went this week. 6 month tax audit??? surely its not illegal in Russia to be unemployed ??? Why not live off savings when times are tough? It seems to me they cant demand that you work....but im no legal expert!

I'll have to start twisting some nuts in the office to get an annual tax audit, so i sure hope its not necessary.

Intersting queustion, We know what it is like to unemloyed in Britain, and get unemployment Benefit. But the point is the question of how you survive , this is the question that all taxes offices ask. How do you survive? How do you eat and live without income? Those questions must be answered. It is true that all russians do declare some income, but it is quite possible they don't declare all. Hence the very strange miimum rate of income in Russia. And through this it brings problems,

Bels
03-12-2009, 22:52
An entrepeneurs might be a good idea, and of course be honest with tax payments. For example your wife might be supporting you for six months, whilst you are the house husband, there is nothing unusual about that these days. You might like to discuss on another thread how to make good money as a private teacher, and you might even upset your wife as to what you are earning. I know it upsets my wife in a way. Let us be fair about this, you can do better yourself if you are a popular and talented teacher, you don't need any company in Russia. No company can pay you what you have got in demand direct. I have refused schools, and agents in my area, and the very same customers eventually contacted me direct. That is the way way to do it. So start investing in the right places, doing it yourself.


Kvartiraokhotnik, re. your question about the mandatory annual review of a TRP: I received my TRP 13 months ago and was told that, after a year, I would have to go to OVIR and show proof (tax receipts, etc.) that I'd been working and paying tax for at least six of the previous twelve months; failure to do so could result in the cancellation of my TRP. It's been a bad year (crisis and all that) and I've worked less than the required six months, having been obliged to dig deep into my savings, so I haven't been in any hurry to keep the appointed rendezvous: I assumed I'd be notified when to appear, but my wife thinks I'm supposed to go there without waiting to be summoned, so I've decided to bite the bullet and go this week. If you get to the end of your 12 month period and hear nothing, it might be advisable to make the first move; I've a nagging feeling I'm going to be penalised for the delay.

As BELS says, the entrepreneur's licence is the alternative to working as an employee. I can only work as a teacher, as I don't have a work permit, and teaching work with schools or universities in this neck of the woods is hard to come by at present. There are opportunities for teaching executives of private companies, but they can't officially employ foreign teachers, and there are even a few, a very few, opportunities for working in a non-teaching field, and an entrepreneur's licence seems to be the only solution to this impasse.

Anyway, my thanks for the useful information everyone; tomorrow I'll go to the налоговый, hoping to get everything sorted out myself but , more realistically, expecting to have to be more polite to the ubiquitous lawyers' reps than I usually am.

Kvartiraokhotnik
07-12-2009, 23:22
OK, heres what I've found out....

After a year on TRP you have to go back to the FMS office where you are registered (you have a 2 month period after the first year of TRP is complete to go and do this - failure can result in a small fine - 5000 roubles, and maybe even kicked out of Russia...) and talk to a policeman. He asks ''are you working?''. If you arent working its no problem, though they may ask how you support yourself. So, Larry can relax - only working 6 months is no problem, though you should have IP or a work permit to work. I.P for self employed work. If you are working they just ask you for your tax declarations.

I'm a lot more relaxed after hearing this as i'll have IP by the end of the week, and hopefully some tax declarations to show the police that Kvarty is a good boy :)

Good Luck to you all!

Hope it was as simple as i made it sound......Can we get some feedback Larry?? Or are you already on the gulag train to Siberia? :farout:

Katrine L
08-12-2009, 01:22
I may just add that to get PE you need to apply to your regional (okrug)tax service where you're registered. Or you can specify where you should apply while having TRP at tax Informational Service by phone - 957-62-55.


ПБОЮЛ does not exist in Russia any longer. It is ИП (private entrepreneur) now. To be able to apply for this you need to have a TRP (temporary residence permit) at least and this is the only part where FMS is involved. Then it is tax authorities that you will have to deal with. The process is pretty much simple and straightforward. The only thing which will definitely annoy you is queue.
here are the links that might be useful for you:
? (http://www.r77.nalog.ru/cons.php?id=169470&topic=cons77_2)
. (http://www.bishelp.ru/svoe_delo/form/0809ip.php)
Оформление индивидуального предпринимателя, инструкция - Kuratov.Ru (http://kuratov.ru/blog/entry/oformlenie-individualnogo-predprinimatelya-izgotovlenie-saitov/)
good luck!

Larry Paradine
12-12-2009, 11:23
This seems to have become a two topic thread and, at present, I can't update my information about the entrepreneur's licence as I can't begin that process till I've sorted out the TRP confirmation problem. It's possible that different regions, and perhaps even different OVIR/FMS offices within the same region have different operating criteria for the confirmation and prolongation procedure. However, the basic reason for the interview is to verify that the TRP holder has either earned enough money to support him/herself or has income from another, legitimate source that obviates the need to work. It was explained to me that, as I'm of pensionable age in Britain, I wouldn't need to show proof of earnings here if I were in receipt of a UK pension. Unfortunately I'm not. I may yet be able to meet the six months requirement because, to my surprise, the MVD officer said she would accept a spravka from the school in Samara where I worked from October last year (when my TRP was granted) till the end of January this year. I was surprised because the same officer had tut-tutted disapprovingly when I'd gone to her in February to register and explained that the delay had been due to my absence in Samara at the time that the FMS in Cheboksary had approved my TRP. The difficulty now is going to be persuading my quondam employer in Samara to issue the required spravka. I worked for him for several years and also for another private school in Samara, and always took it for granted that tax had duly been deducted, but he's an accountant by profession and may have used his skills to reduce his tax burden. His office manager informed me by e-mail several months ago that they were having unspecified problems with unspecified government departments due to "dirty tricks" by competitors (though, from my knowledge of the competitors, that would be a case of the pots calling the kettle black), which doesn't bode well for my chances of getting this matter sorted out by a deadline: 27 December. So, Kvartiraokhotnik, I'm not felling timber and panning for gold on the Kolyma yet, but will keep you informed.

NotAnAngel
13-12-2009, 14:41
Did you work for them legally (had a contract, etc)? If it was legal, then contact accountant of the school were you used to work and ask for 2-NDFL spravka. It's a matter of 10 min to make that spravka, sign it and attach a seal. They anyway have to do that spravkas every year for tax office.