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Anna Lazutkina
07-10-2009, 00:50
Employers, beware of ***** *****. He is a proud bearer of varied degrees and certificates in EL, claiming to be able to teach what-not aspects of the language (as he advertises himself in the Resume section of expat.ru on 17.05.09). Our school employed him to work with us this academic year, to teach four classes a week. The childish antics of this "teacher" boggle the mind. Apparently, he wasn't satisfied with the fact that he couldn't get away with arriving 10 late for his first class and letting the second class 10 minutes earlier than designated. My (rather delicate) criticism as to the quality of his preparation for the class was not welcome either. Last Friday, he arrived before the beginning of his classes, quietly drew his September salary, discreetly got rid of our books and disappeared, never to be seen again, without so much as a word of warning or explanation, not even a phone call, with 2 groups of 15 each waiting for him in the classroom. What a lamentable, miserable coward! My opinion is that such people should be denied entrance to the country next time they want to obtain a "преподаватель" kind of visa. What do you think?

tvadim133
07-10-2009, 02:16
I would agree, but unfortunately we do not know, what really happened between the company and him.

So the problem was with his fraud certificates or he was being late all the time or you company and he were in some kind of battle situation or something else?

What company are you working for?

Anna Lazutkina
07-10-2009, 09:23
I work for a school of Englsih that teaches the language through history and literature. We teach children of the Russian intelligentsia - doctors, teachers, journalists, musicians, etc. We have been on the market for 20 years now, but we sit low and never advertise, for fear of attracting the wrong kind of people. Our target audience finds us through word of mouth. Working with us is difficult for teachers, because we demand quality and result. Teachers who come to the class unprepared (and preparation would take some reading and some research - teaching a literature class in English without having read the story first is kind of problematic, don't you think) don't have a chance. Our reputation is at stake.
Of course we didn't have a fight with him. If we see a problem, we try to settle it through negotiations. But the guy made himself unavailable for any dialogue by hurrying to "the next client" as soon as the class was over. I didn't even have a chance to pick a bone with him.
By "fraud" I mean a different thing. You would think that a teacher, especially a teacher working with teenagers and children, would possess some character and such moral qualities as honesty and straightforwardness. If the guy didn't like or want to work that hard for every class - well, have the decency of saying so, give us a two-week's notice, as per the contract, and go. But with him taking the French leave and leaving 30 children depending on him - a person like that shouldn't be calling himself a teacher. I would call such a person a unreflective lesson-giving money-earning machine.

Bluebird
07-10-2009, 09:50
It is rather unfortunate and even quite unprofessional, when a teacher merely abandons his/her class - right before the curtain is due to go up - leaving the students, who have paid good money after all, waiting and wanting; whatever the reasons/arguments, between the management and themselves.

I take a dim view of that type of wholly unprofessional and unacceptable conduct, which I feel, tends to tar many of us with the same brush, one way or another. For, taint one it does.

Any problems between teacher and management should be discussed in private and in a civilized and adult fashion, without causing undue suffering to the people who have paid good money - expecting a degree of professional deliverance of service and performance.

To sum up...whatever the differences, between the management and teacher concerned - they should be (to repeat myself) settled in private; without causing undue sufferance to the students: by simply abandoning them without due reason via way of explanation displays an appalling lack of professionalism and respect for the profession, he/she has elected to work in.

People who pay money for a service deserve far better treatment than that...irrespective of who might be wrong or right - be it management or teacher.

A teacher's dirty laundry should not be washed in public - at least not without good reason - via way of logical argument, defence of his/her point of view and explanation; should one feel, that is, that a gross injustice and/or violation of ethical employment conduct/breach of contract has been committed by the school in question.

To simply leave the students waiting, however, having collected one's salary, minutes before the curtain's due to go up, and then just simply vanish into the night simply beggars belief.

tvadim133
07-10-2009, 13:12
That's why I was surprised that the represenatave of school did the post of this kind.

I understand that the school is too small, nevertheless it is it's duty to check teachers in hiring and if something goes wrong, to make necessary steps, but within labour legislation.

to place information like mentioned in the post is out of standard of business conduct, to my mind.

alterego
07-10-2009, 13:41
If he had a преподаватель visa, and I assume that you were doing everything correctly and this visa was through your invitation, then you have the mechanism to prevent him from getting another one, or any other type of visa for that matter. Also that would eliminate your need to warn other employers as you could have his current visa canceled.

Bluebird
07-10-2009, 13:50
That's why I was surprised that the represenatave of school did the post of this kind.

I understand that the school is too small, nevertheless it is it's duty to check teachers in hiring and if something goes wrong, to make necessary steps, but within labour legislation.

to place information like mentioned in the post is out of standard of business conduct, to my mind.

I agree that it might well be out of 'standard business conduct' for the representative of a school to place information like this on this website.

However, they have just as much right to voice their opinions about (us), I feel, on here, as we do about them (the educational establishments) here. Especially as there are no rules, as far as I can determine, governing that fact.

In actual fact - I would welcome such contributions: as long as they are constructively critical and not of a slanderous nor malicious nature.

I feel such contributions would enhance interaction, feedback and meaningful debate and dialogue.

Surely if someone quite clearly has been wronged - they have a right to voice their grievance - bringing it to the attention of others in the business...

Bluebird
07-10-2009, 14:01
If he had a 'преподаватель visa,' and I assume that you were doing everything correctly and this visa was through your invitation, then you have the mechanism to prevent him from getting another one, or any other type of visa for that matter. Also that would eliminate your need to warn other employers as you could have his current visa canceled. I feel that the преподаватель visa issue is beside the point being made here.

The point she is trying to make here, I suggest, is one of unprofessional conduct and the type of wholly unacceptable standards of conduct, from some individuals, which drags our profession into one of sloppiness, tardiness and disrepute.

However, regarding the преподаватель visa issue, there are now (to the best of my knowledge) requirements to show proof of any teaching certificates, when applying for such visas.

smchilds
07-10-2009, 15:31
unreflective lesson-giving money-earning machine.
Unfortunately that is what most language teachers in Moscow are. Students should really be thankful and cling to their teacher if they manage to find a good one here, because they are few. I was so shocked when I tried to find private teachers (not English or Russian, but other foreign languages with "native speakers"), and almost every time they would come late to our lessons, leave early (yet expect pay for the whole lesson), not prepare anything, not answer my emails regarding questions and so on.

Bels
07-10-2009, 21:09
First of all I object to personal names or schools slandering individual names and schools. I have seen many post in various forums where the discontented teacher has slandered schools for various reasons, and this being the first time I have seen a school slander a teacher with his personal name on a public forum.

I find this situation of great concern, especially if the teacher is not here for us to see his side of the story.
But I do know for sure that slandering a school from disgruntled without good evidence is not acceptable from members or the forum. And I say for sure that slandering a teacher who may have knowledge of this slander in protecting himself, and whether it should have been done in the first place. The actual statement of BEWARE OF**** ***** IS MOST SLANDEROUS. And could well be against the law in slander in a public place.
We should respect schools and teachers and if slandered excepting exceptional circumstances the posts should be deleted.



Employers, beware of ***** ((((. He is a proud bearer of varied degrees and certificates in EL, claiming to be able to teach what-not aspects of the language (as he advertises himself in the Resume section of expat.ru on 17.05.09). Our school employed him to work with us this academic year, to teach four classes a week. The childish antics of this "teacher" boggle the mind. Apparently, he wasn't satisfied with the fact that he couldn't get away with arriving 10 late for his first class and letting the second class 10 minutes earlier than designated. My (rather delicate) criticism as to the quality of his preparation for the class was not welcome either. Last Friday, he arrived before the beginning of his classes, quietly drew his September salary, discreetly got rid of our books and disappeared, never to be seen again, without so much as a word of warning or explanation, not even a phone call, with 2 groups of 15 each waiting for him in the classroom. What a lamentable, miserable coward! My opinion is that such people should be denied entrance to the country next time they want to obtain a "преподаватель" kind of visa. What do you think?

Bels
07-10-2009, 21:15
Now if we were to discuss what is expected of a teacher, and what is expected of a school I would accept this to be a very good post here to discuss. But to slander and name an individual teacher without evidence in both sides and not found guilty by any authority I find disgraceful.

Anna Lazutkina
07-10-2009, 22:11
Now if we consider the definion of slander - if I'm not mistaken, slander is a FALSE defamatory statement, which my report is not. I know it for a fact. He knows for a fact. Can TRUTH possibly be slanderous? Probably, I'm having a bad case of Quixote-titis, and am fighting windmills, if truth stings the eye. IMoreover, I'm addressing the honorable community in the capacity of a fellow teacher, rather than an educational establishemnt. I find that such behaviour disparages my profession, which I am proud of. This is what preoccupies me most. I don't think that such conduct deserves being veiled or delicately hushed up. I am for going jugular here.

Anna Lazutkina
07-10-2009, 22:14
We should respect schools and teachers and if slandered excepting exceptional circumstances the posts should be deleted.[/B][/QUOTE]

What does this mean?

Bels
07-10-2009, 22:20
But you may well know that. But we don't. It is slanderous because we have to take your word for it. I would never slander a school. of which is an easier target than attacking an individual without evidence and who has not been taken to court and found guilty. In my eyes for the moment this individual is innocent. And even so, this is not the place to attack individuals. But to protect myself I say except in extreme circumstances.

Bels
07-10-2009, 22:22
But even so , an individual should never be named on a forum unless already known publicly.

is4fun
07-10-2009, 22:30
In previous years I only read about Native English speaking teachers getting ripped off by Russian companies that purported to be legitimate English schools or the schools took advantage of Russian legislation or they simply lied to the teachers or they never paid them, or... The list goes on and on and on and on... One should go through the threads.

What makes your school so legitimate? What is the name of the school you represent? There are people here, I am sure, that would like to work for you if indeed are a respected and honest organization.

If indeed you are, then posting your schools identity should not be a problem should it?

Given some of the earlier grievances on this forum from countless teachers over the years I am sure many have also been promised the world only to be let down in the end.

Again, the first time I had ever read a post like this on EXP. Maybe EXP is doing something right?

Very good post Anna Lazutkina, Thank you.

Judge
07-10-2009, 22:54
Anna, what's the name of the school????

Anna Lazutkina
07-10-2009, 22:56
Oh, OK, fine, let him continue fooling others. Listen, if you were to be deceived by a person, wouldn't you want to prevent your friends, neighbours or peers from making the same mistake? Or you would keep your mouth shut for fear of not being tout a fait politically correct? Morevoer, this happens in the country which is not his by birth, but is his by a FREE-WLL CHOICE. One would expect foreign citizen to respect and adhere to the legislature of the country they have come to live in. What evidence can I offer? The conspicuous lack of a teacher in the classroom full of expectant ten-year-olds? The no-less conspicuous lack of a notice of dismissal two weeks prior the event? Well, in fact, the case does fall under the jurisdiction of labour legislation.

Bels
07-10-2009, 23:01
Agreed a very good post as it make a very unusual argument. As normally it is the school that is attacked on forums, so may I also say she is very brave.

But I will continue with my personal belief in that no individual with name should ever be slandered on a public forum without evidence, and may this argument continue.

I have no desire to press the red button on this thread of first post. But instead to ask a mod to remove the name of this individual and continue this valid argument. No I don't want the thread stopped as the argument is iseful for future threads. It is very unusual for the school to feel being the offended party, and it's interesting to see both sides. Me being self employed feels in the middle, but makes me more understanding I believe, as I am not affescted as an employer or employee. But I have been thinking of the future.


In previous years I only read about Native English speaking teachers getting ripped off by Russian companies that purported to be legitimate English schools or the schools took advantage of Russian legislation or they simply lied to the teachers or they never paid them, or... The list goes on and on and on and on... One should go through the threads.

What makes your school so legitimate? What is the name of the school you represent? There are people here, I am sure, that would like to work for you if indeed are a respected and honest organization.

If indeed you are, then posting your schools identity should not be a problem should it?

Given some of the earlier grievances on this forum from countless teachers over the years I am sure many have also been promised the world only to be let down in the end.

Again, the first time I had ever read a post like this on EXP. Maybe EXP is doing something right?

Very good post Anna Lazutkina, Thank you.

Bels
07-10-2009, 23:16
Anna, on another recent post of which you were welcomed you were uncertain if you were allowed to name your school, I was also uncertain and said nothing. But now a moderator has asked you. Which school are you in.

However I do feel uneasy about Anna's named personal person on her first post, and I request this person's name be deleted at least for the time being. But i do believe she brings up a valid argument. But let us not be personal!! But continue the discussion on a general note.



Anna, what's the name of the school????

Judge
07-10-2009, 23:18
The name of the teacher has been removed.
Why is it easy to name the teacher but not to name the school??
If everything is in the open, then all info should be on the table.

Anna Lazutkina
07-10-2009, 23:19
I've got nothing to hide or do be ashamed of. We have our principles, we demand quality and results, and we are not willing to compromise here , but not a single expat has ever been wronged or deceived by us.

Please proceed to domstankevicha.ru.

This afternoon I got phone calls from several Americans reading the thread , willing to fill iin the vacancy. I hope (eyes heavenward) that the vacancy has already been successfully filled by people who have come for the sake of the concept. By people whose first words were not "how much do you pay" but "guys, what a great idea".

Bluebird
07-10-2009, 23:24
But even so , an individual should never be named on a forum unless already known publicly.That statement then makes, I suggest, for a rather interesting conundrum.

It rather reminds of the time I wanted to work on the ferries, between Dover, France and Belgium, in the 1980's...to start working on the ferries, I had to be a member of the NUS (National Union of Seamen). However, to become a union member - I had to first become a seaman - working on the ships.

The conundrum: I couldn't work on the ships out of Dover; without first being a part of the union. However, as I was not a union member, in the first place - I couldn't work on the ships.

The solution to that riddle was...I did like everyone else, wishing to work on the ferries in those days...I gave the local union shsihki a fist full of fiver's. Within two hours I had my international seaman's passport, union book and the union stamp inside it.

You see, the NUS, as it was then called, was a closed shop union.

Therefore, my question: how can one become publicly known, without being named, in the first instance - be it on this forum or on any other forum or, in deed, form of media outlet?

While I can understand that what this lady's done might have upset you and a few other's I've no doubt...I do feel that at least she has opened up a worthy debate on this very topic and...At least she is using her real name and not hiding behind some nickname, which I do find highly commendable. She has more guts than I do. :respect:

Moreover, perhaps she has inadvertently discovered a loophole in the rules of this forum about the naming of names and perhaps this should now be (if it has not been already) be addressed by the moderators and made perfectly clear, for all to see.

Could there be a case for looking into this and amending this anomaly, therefore? :book:

Bels
07-10-2009, 23:26
First of all I think you have made a good thread Anna. The major thing I was concerned about was a personal name. Thank goodness the mods are efficient on removing this. Now we can enjoy an argument on a general basis. The same applies to your school I guess. You can promote it and it may well be a very good school, and you are encouraged to do so if you are an active member like the rest of us. I know for sure that the admin and mods will do their job to remove any unjust slander in your case as well as any individual teacher. Let;s discuss in a general nature, without unfound slander to individual or school,

Judge
07-10-2009, 23:31
I've got nothing to hide or do be ashamed of. We have our principles, we demand quality and results, and we are not willing to compromise here , but not a single expat has ever been wronged or deceived by us.

Please proceed to domstankevicha.ru.

This afternoon I got phone calls from several Americans reading the thread , willing to fill iin the vacancy. I hope (eyes heavenward) that the vacancy has already been successfully filled by people who have come for the sake of the concept. By people whose first words were not "how much do you pay" but "guys, what a great idea".

That's good then,best to have it out in the open..From what I read from your first post,you are on about a problem of 10 mins here and there,maybe the teacher was in a rush,who knows,but it annoyed the school.Maybe the teacher had a valid reason,we wont know this,unless he posts in this thread.

Glad you got a few phone calls,hope all works out for your shcool..

tvadim133
07-10-2009, 23:34
I am glad that the name of the teacher was deleted from the thread, it is really important not to break somebody's rights!

Just "to defend" Anna, I understand that she was really upset and emotional because of the situation and the person, really worry and posted the thread not for evil but for good. And who does not work, does not make mistakes.

For me, at least, it was a real expample, or let's say, an experience, how the situation can be seemed by other people when you do something just emotionaly and with a wrong way (wrong words e.t.c) of communication.

I am sure, that your school and clients will be ok!

smchilds
07-10-2009, 23:37
What makes your school so legitimate? What is the name of the school you represent? There are people here, I am sure, that would like to work for you if indeed are a respected and honest organization.

I have worked there and I can say it is legitimate and probably a much better place to work than most (or perhaps all, from my experience) English schools in Moscow. The grievance against the previously mentioned employee is understandable, because the school has a set curriculum with exams and so on (sort of like a normal day school), and I imagine they can't just cancel lessons if there isn't a teacher (and it might not be so easy to just find anyone to fill in, as the curriculum is specific). It is true that the teacher working there really should have realized this and given his two weeks notice.
I suppose the post against the now-unnamed English teacher doesn't really matter, though, because most English "schools" in Moscow are desperate for teachers and will hire almost anyone.

Judge
07-10-2009, 23:40
The OP posted the name of the school.

Welcome! Official site of House of Stankevich (http://domstankevicha.ru./engl/index.htm)

Bels
07-10-2009, 23:46
Then let's name both the name of the teacher (you have done already) and the name of the school (it will be fair).

agreed to a certain degree. But my personal is that for the moment the teacher's name should be kept deleted. I would rather this be a general discussion on the intersting issues she a has brought up, rather than making it a personal vendetta. But I would be interested to know what her school name is. Any unfound attack on it should be deleted. Why? Because schools , especially proprietors or representives of schools should be welcome here without fear of unfounded nasty comments. But that doesn't mean we can open factual debate. I think it would be good for this site and very different from other teacher forums. Both sides must be protected to a certain degree.

No but sorry we can't possibly put personal names on any kind of forum. That's taboo, we only use our member names and that is the way it should be

Bluebird
07-10-2009, 23:48
Actually, I'd be rather interested to hear from any other English language school directors and/or Russian teachers of English, out there reading this thread started by Anna, what their thoughts are on their experiences of working with ex-pat teachers over the years.

Why not? Let's open it up.:boxing:

Perhaps there are things we could all learn from here. :10310:

cheriedeperth
07-10-2009, 23:55
The major thing I was concerned about was a personal name. Thank goodness the mods are efficient on removing this.

Sorry, I don't know anyone here and this doesn't concern me, but Bels has continually asked for the mods to remove the name of the teacher from the first post, which they have done, but Bels used this person's name himself in one of his posts (#10) and it's still there.

Maybe we should be careful about repeating slander in our own posts when we're complaining about other people's posts.

Goodnight.

Bogatyr
08-10-2009, 00:27
My thoughts on all this:

There are always two sides to any story. Always. Passing judgement before knowing the entire story is pretty pointless (from the standpoint of determining the truth and deciding on what is "just" as a result). Who knows, maybe this teacher was personally threatened and had to leave in a hurry? Maybe the behavior of the school fell drastically short of the conditions of his agreement? Maybe far fetched, but such things are not unheard of. Maybe he is completely at fault. Forums such as this are not very helpful in situations like this one except as a venting mechanism, which is what all this looks like.

It's not "slander" (which means defamation by spoken word), but definitely a form of defamation (Defamation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Wiktionary-logo-en.svg" class="image"><img alt="Wiktionary-logo-en.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Wiktionary-logo-en.svg/50px-Wiktionary-logo-en.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/f/f8/Wiktionary-logo-en.svg/50px-Wiktionary-logo-en.svg.png) Highly subjective and conclusion-drawing words and phrases like "fraud," "childish", "lamentable, "miserable," "coward," "Employers: beware!", "(Russia shouldn't let him in to the country again)" are highly charged, and can absolutely lead to damage of reputation and economic damage as well.

Sometimes when you perceive someone has damaged your or offended you or others close to you there is a great temptation to want to scream it to all the world. I know I've wanted to do that on any number of occasions. And sometimes it is the mature and reasonable approach not to do that, but to follow established policies for reporting feedback on what you feel was a negative experience.

In the US there are organizations like the Better Business Bureau (but that's for reporting experiences with businesses, not individuals). Perhaps Russian immigration has an official feedback mechanism?

Bluebird
08-10-2009, 00:29
Sorry, I don't know anyone here and this doesn't concern me, but Bels has continually asked for the mods to remove the name of the teacher from the first post, which they have done, but Bels used this person's name himself in one of his posts (#10) and it's still there.

Maybe we should be careful about repeating slander in our own posts when we're complaining about other people's posts.

Ouch.. a bit like the old adage of throwing stones in glass houses then, in that case. :yellowcard:

is4fun
08-10-2009, 00:41
I've got nothing to hide or do be ashamed of. We have our principles, we demand quality and results, and we are not willing to compromise here , but not a single expat has ever been wronged or deceived by us.

Please proceed to domstankevicha.ru.

This afternoon I got phone calls from several Americans reading the thread , willing to fill iin the vacancy. I hope (eyes heavenward) that the vacancy has already been successfully filled by people who have come for the sake of the concept. By people whose first words were not "how much do you pay" but "guys, what a great idea".

Thank you Anna for your this post and I admire your passion and courage for your revelation. I am sure some of the great teachers who read your words will consider your request. Please, by all means, post all your needs and I am confident your needs will be fulfilled.

This is a forum after all; and to get to know people requires to participate in these discussions, anonymously. I know it may take a little time, however, once connecting with someone through text, a relationship will eventually develop so as for you to make a decision which you will feel confident with.

I'm glad your here. :)))

Bluebird
08-10-2009, 01:21
Thank you Anna for your this post and I admire your passion and courage for your revelation. I am sure some of the great teachers who read your words will consider your request. Please, by all means, post all your needs and I am confident your needs will be fulfilled.

This is a forum after all; and to get to know people requires to participate in these discussions, anonymously. I know it may take a little time, however, once connecting with someone through text, a relationship will eventually develop so as for you to make a decision which you will feel confident with.

I'm glad your here. :)))Couldn't have said it better myself...She has my full support and she's not hiding behind any nickname either. :iagree:

And for anyone interested in the exact definition of slander....

What Are Defamation, Libel and Slander?

Generally speaking, defamation (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/defamation.html) is the issuance of a false statement about another person, which causes that person to suffer harm. Slander involves the making of defamatory statements by a transitory (non-fixed) representation, usually an oral (spoken) representation. Libel involves the making of defamatory statements in a printed or fixed medium, such as a magazine or newspaper.
Typically, the elements of a cause of action for defamation include:


A false and defamatory statement concerning another;
The unprivileged publication of the statement to a third party (that is, somebody other than the person defamed by the statement);
If the defamatory matter is of public concern, fault amounting at least to negligence on the part of the publisher; and
Damage to the plaintiff.

In the context of defamation law, a statement is "published" when it is made to the third party. That term does not mean that the statement has to be in print.

I do not see fault amounting at least to negligence on the part of the publisher, in this case Anna.

I also have no doubt that the students, who were left waiting for a lesson, for the said teacher, would be more than ample proof in a court of law, if ever it went that far + the time and date he signed off for receipt of his salary, just before lessons were due to commence.

It might be an idea for some us English teachers to brush up on our knowledge of legal English and the definitions of words, in legal English, which many of us - myself included banter about all too freely...Especially before publishing our expressions of outrage in a forum; using legal terminology which we are not in the least familiar with, at the end of the day.

A classic case of practising what one teaches their students....

J.D.
08-10-2009, 06:39
By posting this are you saying that we are too stupid to know it already.

HEY! That's slander.

then again, I guess ***s, I mean a previous poster might have trouble proving it was slander.

Bluebird
08-10-2009, 10:11
But honest guv...I did include myself in that category...And, I only decided to do some digging into the exact definitions after seeing Bogatyr's excellent post.

Actually, this reminds of (I know it's slightly off topic of educational matters) of the the classic Guardian v's Jonathan Aitken (http://www.guardian.co.uk/aitken) ex- MP for Thanet East, when he sued the Guardian for libel in 1995 and ended up going to prison himself, as a direct result of the legal action he'd started, when he was found to have committed acts of purgery, during the proceedings.

Anna Lazutkina
08-10-2009, 19:28
[QUOTE=Bogatyr;584163]

Forums such as this are not very helpful in situations like this one except as a venting mechanism, which is what all this looks like.


Sometimes when you perceive someone has damaged your or offended you or others close to you there is a great temptation to want to scream it to all the world. I know I've wanted to do that on any number of occasions. And sometimes it is the mature and reasonable approach not to do that, but to follow established policies for reporting feedback on what you feel was a negative experience.

My post not only looks like an emotional outburst. It is exactly what it is. I have allowed myself to be emotional because I assumed (probably mistakenly) that that's what forums are for - for discussing your frustrations with the community and peers, and expressing your (subjective) opinions and points of view. I quite agree - it would have been wiser and more reasonable to report the case to the respective controlling body. I realize that. It would have even been considerably less time-consuming, and I would have got more work done last Wednesday night, instead of doing all this reading and typing. But then, nobody would have known about the problem. Nobody would have noticed. I wanted to draw everybody's attention to that. I think that my effort was not entirely lost.
We now have the vacancy successfully filled with people that evoke trust and respect. But should anyone have any questions about the school, now or at any time in future, I'm always at your disposal.
Thank you for all your feedback, both supportive and critical. It's precious. Criticism will be considered as valuable grounds for reflection and improvement. Of course, this experience will serve as an important lesson for the school and for me personally. I'm glad we talked.

Bels
08-10-2009, 20:38
Thank you Anna as you have been a surprising successful thread writer on bringing your point of view as a person representing a school, rather than the most common view as teacher giving his her point of view.

Nice topic also to make this a long running thread. Frauds in our midst.What do we believe in those first posters who constantly ask for native speaking teachers and saying no more. Perhaps trying to leave an email or telephone or both. When potential teachers respond they get no answer for their question, and then we assume that they return the same again with a new member name.

Getting back to genuine legal language centres in Moscow, small or large.

Apersonal question to you also. A potential teacher has an interview with you. HE/she has a business visa but no work permit. Can you employ this person?

If a potential employer of yours makes an enquiry to you from outside your country, who is interested in being employed with you, and who at the moment has no visa or work permit, has no flat or apartment when coming to Russia. Would you recommend this potential employee to work for you and would you promise them full support?

Or are you assuming they are already here, and ready to work for you legally, and that they will be able to afford their on flat and all forms of cost of living from the income you are offering. And at the end of the contract or if they have problems will you pay for their flight home?

Also what about health insurance and holidays etc? I assume that is part of the contract.

Positive answers to such questions will make you look well on here.

Anna Lazutkina
10-10-2009, 17:13
A potential teacher has an interview with you. HE/she has a business visa but no work permit. Can you employ this person?


- This will never daunt us. If the candidate otherwise suits us, we will employ him and get his papers straight.


If a potential employer of yours makes an enquiry to you from outside your country, who is interested in being employed with you, and who at the moment has no visa or work permit, has no flat or apartment when coming to Russia. Would you recommend this potential employee to work for you and would you promise them full support?


We used to hire people from abroad, finding them via Internet or through recommendations of people around us. We have come to the conclusion that this is quite unnecessary and unreasonable, and have had to stop this practice. Buying a pig in a poke, that is, hiring a person you haven't had a chance to interview, is very risky. We avoid that kind of commitment these days. When we hire a new teacher, we normally ask him/her to give a trial lesson in order to see him/her perform. When we attend such trial lessons, we look for signs. There has to be this feeling of mutual compatibility, almost on the chemical level, a feeling that this person will fit in, will bond with the children, will become part of the team. (We hired this same*** **** in summer, when there were no students around. We couldn't observe him in the classroom. We were immediately punished for that).
I believe that the teacher's job is in many ways akin to the actor's . And what director would hire an actor without an audition?
Moreover, there is a thing that we can’t help taking into consideration. Russia is a difficult country to live in. Moscow is not an easy city to adapt to. At the beginning, a newcomer is bound to be out of his/her depth here, on many levels, which will surely affect his/her classroomperformance. In a word, these days we definitely prefer somebody who has had some previous experience with Russia and is familiar with the needs/wants/mentality/peculiarities of Russian students.

Then, accommodation.

More than once, a teacher coming from abroad used the school as a means to obtain a visa and to enter the country. Once, a newly-employed American teacher disappeared on August 31st, right before the beginning of a new school year. Didn't show up at the staff meeting. Didn't answer the phone. When my boss came to the flat she had rented for him, she found a small box of chocolates, which was apparently meant as a consolation prize. We never saw the guy again.
Also, we used to rent a flat for our foreign teachers, in a дом правительства на набережной, which is in a very nice neighborhood and a very prestigious house to live in. We had many issues there, but the ultimate piece de resistance was delivered by a professor from one of the ivy-league universities in the States, who had this charming little habit of draining his pasta in the bathtub, the ritual at which he excelled. Apparently, pasta was the staple of his diet, and before long he succeeded in clogging up the entire pipe, three floors down, solid with spaghetti No. 4. We were asked to leave the premises.

To cut a long story short, these days we avoid taking care of accommodation. Our foreign teachers get a considerably higher remuneration than their Russian colleagues working with the same groups, and that's the end of the story.

And then again, we also have Russian teachers coming from different cities around Russia and settling in Moscow for good. Somehow, they don’t expect us to cover their accommodation expenses. It never even occurs to them to ask. Why should foreigners expect a different treatment?


Also what about health insurance and holidays etc? I assume that is part of the contract.

We don’t have health insurance neither for foreign nor for Russian teachers. After all, we are a small private school, not a global company like PricewaterhouseCoopers or Procter and Gamble with international capital, where people are expected to work from 7 o’clock in the morning to midnight, but can claim all kinds of benefits in return. With us, the maximum load teachers get is 3 hours a day, four days a week. Most of the teachers find private lessons through us and use them as additional income, work elsewhere or even have their own businesses.
However, we never remain indifferent to a difficult situation or a situation of crisis. For instance, one of our American teachers and his Russian wife are about to have a baby (which is due any minute now). He asked for financial help. He received it.


Positive answers to such questions will make you look well on here.

What can I say? You asked, I answered. I did not answer to make us look better than we are. I explain how things stand and why things are this way. We do what we can do. We are honest in our dealings with teachers and most teachers reciprocate by staying with us for many years and becoming our reliable partners.

pjw
10-10-2009, 22:58
Sorry I know nothing about Sigmund Freud.;) Wasn't he the guy who had a crush on his mum?





EDIT...... oh it's fraud, sorry I must be going completely bonkers.:alien:

Bels
10-10-2009, 23:24
Thanks for the post as you have made some interesting of what questions potential expats ask on this site.

I want to come to Russia so what do I do? Iwas thinking of teaching English. How do I go about qualifications or training?

In regards to new Russian regulations how do I get a work permit as a teacher so that I can stay in Russia?

How do I stay in Russia longer than the restricted three months and and out for three months without having to leave the country so often to complete my work contract? Get a work permit! How do I get awork permit and who are the most suitable and experienced employers who can get my work permit?

For those schools who are offering employment to me that doesn't offer me the full package such as flight and visa costs, health insurance, and the cost of a flat? Have they reflected these necessary costs to me by giving the a salary to me that covers all these costs. Or am i better off going to one of the big three who do give me the whole package.

Should we as expats expect accommadation if we are employed by a school , as after all we are not Russians who have already inherited their property and don't have such costs. But we coming as welcoming guest as native speaking and who do do have the command of having students prepared to have their fees raised because we are native, don't we have that need of accommadation.

In regards to an American who has a Russian wife who is about to have a baby, don,t you think that EFL employment income is unrespecatable for a responsible family man, and no wonder he lost his respect and his families respect if he didn't earn enough money to respectable give his family a good western standard of living. Poor man is all I can say, if he needed financial assistance because he wasn't provided by his respectable employers and having his rightful status a native speaking EFL teacher and as a family man..
Me I already worked worked that one out. Native speaking tacher do have a higher demand in fees, and that is why this man should make time to develop himself privately, as it's the only way he will make a respactable and happy living for his future family. No ESL school can give him this unfortunately.

Yes I do have a Russian wife and two children, also a babooska to financially take care of. And there is no way that being an employed EFL teacher in any language centre could support this. The onl way is to eventualy develop your own students. Start low at 1500r and when you can gain confidence with enough students continue with 2000 rubles per acadamic hour. That is the rate one to one or slightly higher to cover costs the price to be shared to groups.

Anna Lazutkina
10-10-2009, 23:48
Dear Bels, we would never employ you. Your syntax is so sloppy that I have very bad time trying to understand the point that you are making. I will get back to it when I have an hour to spare and a group of decipherers standing by. One would expect a teacher to at least try and make his messages semi- literate before demanding a flat, insurance and a salary of one hundred grand. You have to work for it. Being a native is not a big deal - it's a biological thing. One has to work. WORK. EARN your money, not just get it.
As for that guy - don't worry about him, he is doing fine. He's got a business of his own. He asked for money not because he is so needy or poor, but because he feels he deserves it. And we feel he deserves it too. We are glad to help him. Money is never enough, you know.

Anna Lazutkina
11-10-2009, 00:58
Yes I do have a Russian wife and two children, also a babooska to financially take care of. And there is no way that being an employed EFL teacher in any language centre could support this. The onl way is to eventualy develop your own students. Start low at 1500r and when you can gain confidence with enough students continue with 2000 rubles per acadamic hour. That is the rate one to one or slightly higher to cover costs the price to be shared to groups.[/QUOTE]

Oh, what a farce. I wish I had the eloquence and the satirical bite of Evelyn Waugh to write about it. A person who can't finish a sentence without disgracing both himself and the language of Shakespeare teaches people from Rublevka, who live on the general principle that the more they are charged, the better services they are getting. Bels, listen up, I will give you a key to success - if you charge them 5000 rubles per academic hour, you will immediately gain the reputation of a miracle man, and you will have a waiting list for a decade to come.
Which brings me back to the title of my thread.
I guess that talking about dignity and conscience is a mere waste of saliva. I'll go to bed.

tvadim133
11-10-2009, 01:08
Dear Bels, we would never employ you. Your syntax is so sloppy that I have very bad time trying to understand the point that you are making. I will get back to it when I have an hour to spare and a group of decipherers standing by. One would expect a teacher to at least try and make his messages semi- literate before demanding a flat, insurance and a salary of one hundred grand. You have to work for it. Being a native is not a big deal - it's a biological thing. One has to work. WORK. EARN your money, not just get it.
As for that guy - don't worry about him, he is doing fine. He's got a business of his own. He asked for money not because he is so needy or poor, but because he feels he deserves it. And we feel he deserves it too. We are glad to help him. Money is never enough, you know.

Anna!

And after such kind of words (at least to Bell), you will tell us that you (your school) teach children from "inteligentsya" families?

I am really sorry for them (children)!

I would like my son to be taught by Bell after having read his several posts.

For me it is important, that my kid can be a good, kind and smart man, not just good-in-english-"bavarder" guy.

I am sure that your english is better then Bell's and you are seemed to be better in syntax and may be pronunciation (it is not sloppy at least), though I have found some mistakes.

At any rate, my upbrininng prevents me from correcting them. :jester:

P.S. Nobody is perfect!:goblin:

pjw
11-10-2009, 01:10
I guess that talking about dignity and conscience is a mere waste of saliva. I'll go to bed.Don't worry Anna. If his wife finds out about this babooshka that he's always talking about, it's going to be :11513:

Anna Lazutkina
11-10-2009, 01:24
My upbringing prevents me from charging students 2000 rubles per academic hour. We keep prices low, but ensure quality. That's why we can't promise our teachers the Moon and accommodation in the Garden of Eden. English is not my native language, whereas, as far as I can get it, Bels claims to be a native. I doubt it. Still, you are free to believe that he can teach your son to be a kind and smart boy. He probably can. It's his ability to teach ENGLISH that is dubious. Again, it's a free world. You make your own choice.

tvadim133
11-10-2009, 01:44
My upbringing prevents me from charging students 2000 rubles per academic hour. We keep prices low, but ensure quality. That's why we can't promise our teachers the Moon and accommodation in the Garden of Eden. English is not my native language, whereas, as far as I can get it, Bels claims to be a native. I doubt it. Still, you are free to believe that he can teach your son to be a kind and smart boy. He probably can. It's his ability to teach ENGLISH that is dubious. Again, it's a free world. You make your own choice.

Thanks, and I would do!

English is not my native either (I had just good tutors in foreign languages department of one of the universities in Russia) but I have got no doubt as for Bell, I wonder, why.

Obviousely, we went to different!

To my personal opinion, a teacher of foreign languages should be a teacher of the language and it's culture!

Have a nice business!

Bels
11-10-2009, 13:06
First of all I have no need of employment from you nor anybody else, and I have no need of your students unless they happen to be in the Rublevka area. I also find it difficult to believe that your school can survive on a student paying less than 250p per hour for letís say eight in a group. Thatís a total of 2000p per hour. Take into considerations costs of your premises etc, the teacherís income, your staffís income, red tape, and your income of course how could you possibly do it otherwise?

But due to the many questions asked by those coming to Russia seeking work as an EFL I feel that certain answers are required for them
First one is to provide them with a list of reputable schools that can employ them legally, ensuring them with a work permit to enable them to stay in Russia and work for a period longer than the limited three month period, and where they will be able to be a legal employee without fear of prosecution.
Also to cover the subject of whether they can survive financially in Russia and be able to pay for all their necessary costs of which a local Russian doesnít have.

Once we have this list of reputable legal schools here on this forum, of which no doubt will include BKC and Language link. From that point we can then discuss if it is better for them to work for one of the big schools with full package or whether there a better option with other emplyers.

Of course the best option for a native EFL teacher is to find him or herself a classroom and do it privately, but not every EFL is in a position to do this legally, but no doubt they will need the extra private income whilst being employed as a EFL teacher.

Will
13-10-2009, 11:48
The OP has a perfectly fair point: there are a great number of poor teachers in the city, and there always have been. I was one when I arrived and it took a lot of work to change that. The truth is that a lot of the time we can get away with being poor teachers: students have a hard time judging the quality of a teacher's command of the language, and a nice manner and a bit of bullshit goes a long way in Moscow, as elsewhere. I have friends, good friends, teaching here who I wouldn't employ simply because their knowledge of the language is so evidently weak. Most premiership footballers are native speakers but I'm not about to let Wayne Rooney explain modal verbs to my loved ones.
I have worked at the school named and it is very demanding: I know that if I have no time to prepare for a business class I can use a photocopy and my wits to deliver a satisfactory lessons, or even just my wits, and a lot of teachers, having learned this, never bother preparing at all. You simply can't get away with that at Stankevitch and my guess is the teacher with no name found this out the hard way. I have no dog in this fight, but the truth of it is that Stankevitch pays fairly, offers such support as is required and provides a good atmosphere, Anna's anger at the teacher is understandable, as is her frustration at the nature of this business here where an apparent incompetent can walk out of a deal on a whim and proceed to work elsewhere. Hence the impulse to name and shame. In other countries there are clear systems for ensuring a minimum level of competence in teachers, here there is not, and if our concern is broader than self interest, even so broad as to touch upon the ethics of the profession we practice, then the present state is lamentable.
Nu, kto vinovaty i chto delat?

GaNozri
13-10-2009, 11:55
So, when I run out of money, I can start teaching English?

GaNozri
13-10-2009, 11:56
Bullshit .., ehr, I mean business English.

Will
13-10-2009, 12:01
You got it.

In the land of the blind the one eyed man teaches Business English.

Bluebird
13-10-2009, 12:45
The OP has a perfectly fair point: there are a great number of poor teachers in the city, and there always have been. I was one when I arrived and it took a lot of work to change that. The truth is that a lot of the time we can get away with being poor teachers: students have a hard time judging the quality of a teacher's command of the language, and a nice manner and a bit of bullshit goes a long way in Moscow, as elsewhere. I have friends, good friends, teaching here who I wouldn't employ simply because their knowledge of the language is so evidently weak. Most premiership footballers are native speakers but I'm not about to let Wayne Rooney explain modal verbs to my loved ones.
I have worked at the school named and it is very demanding: I know that if I have no time to prepare for a business class I can use a photocopy and my wits to deliver a satisfactory lessons, or even just my wits, and a lot of teachers, having learned this, never bother preparing at all. You simply can't get away with that at Stankevitch and my guess is the teacher with no name found this out the hard way. I have no dog in this fight, but the truth of it is that Stankevitch pays fairly, offers such support as is required and provides a good atmosphere, Anna's anger at the teacher is understandable, as is her frustration at the nature of this business here where an apparent incompetent can walk out of a deal on a whim and proceed to work elsewhere. Hence the impulse to name and shame. In other countries there are clear systems for ensuring a minimum level of competence in teachers, here there is not, and if our concern is broader than self interest, even so broad as to touch upon the ethics of the profession we practice, then the present state is lamentable.
Nu, kto vinovaty i chto delat?I would like to say that I am currently working there and I 120% agree with what you say, regarding the Dom Stankovich School of English.

The lessons need to be methodically prepared (and the teacher really needs to be on the ball, with this) which is quite refreshing and mentally stimulating - not just a case of copying pages from any old ELT book and "winging it"...and the lessons are as intellectually challenging for the teacher (to prepare and deliver) as they are for the students to work on.

Moreover, many of the students studied and grown up together - in the same groups since childhood - some seven-eight years in total. And that, I believe, is a truly remarkable achievement and a resounding endorsement to the school's methadologies, the dedicated teacher's and learning environment.

The students also know the exact drill of what is expected of them and the running order of the lesson structure(s) and of the consequences of not delivering their homework on time and/or coming into the class unprepared.

As far as that is concerened, with my two groups at least, the results speak for themselves. I am genuinely proud of them, their spontaneous (in English) wit and their educational achievements. For they would leave many of their peers of the same age, in the UK, standing on the starting blocks, on an intellectual level and mastery of a foreign language.

I was there the night that Jon Doe, shall we call him, merely vanished into the night (after having first collected his salary) and the resultant, unfolding chaos that ensued - not just for his poor waiting students, but for those of his colleagues, who were left to pick up the pieces, in order that the show went on regardless: was and is totally unforgivable and unprofessional.

In fact it is selfish ex-pat teacher's like him that give the rest of us, who do try our best to do a good job, a bad name.

Go home Jon Doe, and other's of your ilk, from whence you came, we do not need nor welcome you here.

Bels
13-10-2009, 13:32
But I thought that teachers nowadays who are applied for, or have applied for work permit need to show their qualifications legalised and translated to the government. So how do the bad ones get employed?

Bluebird
14-10-2009, 09:04
But I thought that teachers nowadays who are applied for, or have applied for work permit need to show their qualifications legalised and translated to the government. So how do the bad ones get employed?You are quite correct that persons applying for a teacher's visa, are obliged to demonstrate their "paper" qualifications. That's quite true.

However, it is not just here in mother Russia that false certificates and diploma's can be purchased. Anyone with a few bucks to spare and a credit/debit card can now purchase these false certs on line - a fact I'm sure you are well aware of. And they look good too - like the real McCoy.

Moreover, the reality of anyone in HR and/or senior management departments actually doing a physical background check on any applicant is, I suggest, perhaps a million-to-one chance - even in the UK/US...No one really has the time to do any in-depth background digging - especially if said applicant looks good and presses all the right buttons at his/her interview(s).

The other thing is and I'm sure you've come across such incidents yourself - I know I have...Is that there are peeps with great looking and reading CV's and so on...

However, when push comes to shove and they have to really get down and think on their feet and move at the speed of sound, with their team; there are some who (for what ever reason) and despite having qualifiactions coming out of their ears - can not cut the mustsard in situations, when things do not go according to plan. i.e. when the going gets tough - they can not get tough with it: and in such situations, their team mates end up carrying them, which inevitably leads to arguments, finger-pointing and resentment. And, and...sooner or later that person simply has to be shown the door.

As Sir Alan Sugar would say to, such non-performers, in his TV series, The Apprentice, "You're fired."

Larry Paradine
14-10-2009, 10:43
I've come to this topic rather late in the day, too late even to correct BELS on his misuse of legal terminology as Bogatyr and Bluebird have preempted me (and I think most users of this forum have long ago realised there's no point in trying to correct BELS's tortured syntax and idiosyncratic spelling, being able to understand what he's trying to say is a big enough achievement); however, my incorrigible pedantry and taste for nit picking can only be satisfied by asking Bluebird if he had a legal laxative in mind when he wrote about "purgery"?

On a less dogmatic note, I reluctantly find myself in agreement with BELS on the issue of not using the forum to denounce people by name. The moderators of expat.ru are to be commended for not adopting the same autocratic attitude towards members that has made the moderator of a well known forum for EFL teachers a byword for pettiness, but I think a little tightening up here would not go amiss.

I end my 5 kopecks' worth on a note of admiration for the OP's almost flawless, even masterful, use of the English language. There aren't many native English speakers who can express themselves so clearly and effectively, and I only wish my Russian was half as good as her English.

GaNozri
14-10-2009, 11:12
As Sir Alan Sugar would say to, such non-performers, in his TV series, The Apprentice, "You're fired."

Wasn't it Donald Trump, on The Apprentice?

Bluebird
14-10-2009, 14:21
I've come to this topic rather late in the day, too late even to correct BELS on his misuse of legal terminology as Bogatyr and Bluebird have preempted me (and I think most users of this forum have long ago realised there's no point in trying to correct BELS's tortured syntax and idiosyncratic spelling, being able to understand what he's trying to say is a big enough achievement); however, my incorrigible pedantry and taste for nit picking can only be satisfied by asking Bluebird if he had a legal laxative in mind when he wrote about "purgery"?

On a less dogmatic note, I reluctantly find myself in agreement with BELS on the issue of not using the forum to denounce people by name. The moderators of expat.ru are to be commended for not adopting the same autocratic attitude towards members that has made the moderator of a well known forum for EFL teachers a byword for pettiness, but I think a little tightening up here would not go amiss.

I end my 5 kopecks' worth on a note of admiration for the OP's almost flawless, even masterful, use of the English language. There aren't many native English speakers who can express themselves so clearly and effectively, and I only wish my Russian was half as good as her English.Hmmm, I did not actually "write" an article or post about purgery...for there are people far better qualified than I to write on such complex legal issues.

That (regarding my post on the topic, of slander and libel) was in reference to very public the case of The Guradian vs Johnathan Aitken, (http://www.guardian.co.uk/aitken) MP, for Thanet East, when he tried suing The Guradian for libel and, as a direct result, ended up going to prison himself, when it was found that he had falsified his statements of fact and was even preparing to get his daughter to lie, under oath, in trying to prosecute his case agaisnt The Guradian.

However, to repeat - I did not commit myself to writing any article whatsoever on the topic of pergury.

What I did was, was quote a fact... as well as the source of the infromation and...just for your benefit: I have, again, hyperlinked the source of the information and might I be so bold as to suggest you read it. :respect:

Might I also suggest, therefore, that with kind regard to your seemingly insatiable quest for "Pedantry and taste for nit picking" and then proceed to write that I have a "Legal laxative mind;" that before trying to gorge yourself on one's blood: you check out the selected target area a little more thoroughly, in order to facilitate a rather safer landing first.

Because nit's, who enjoy nit-picking, usually have a habit of getting swatted, if they do not.

In any case - thanks for your " 5 kopecks' worth." :book:

Bels
14-10-2009, 14:25
Didn't he say You're fired and will be named and shamed?

MickeyTong
14-10-2009, 14:41
Perjury + purgative = purgery?

Bluebird
14-10-2009, 14:49
Didn't he say You're fired and will be named and shamed?Lol...Nice one Cyril...Lol...:10641:

Anna Lazutkina
14-10-2009, 16:54
Nu, kto vinovaty i chto delat?


On Saturday night, I decided to refrain from further participation in all this, all the more so as there wonít be any final conclusion or any resolution of the plot in the end, anyway. Our renewed establishment, after this little hiccup, has moved on. But now that the thread seems to have taken on a life of its own without me, Iíve started to feel left out, and Willís question of Who is to blame? and What can be done? (a voice in the wilderness, really!) jerked me back to motion.
Nobody is to blame. Nothing can be done. Itís human nature. Everything is the same everywhere, not just in our profession. In every field of business, it is very difficult to find a person who wonít pee into your ear and tell you itís raining. For instance, itís the same in medicine. For several years now, Iíve had very bad back pains stemming from years of excessive sports, but I procrastinate going to the doctors for several reasons:
a) I hate the moment of seeing the dollar (euro? ruble?) sign flash in the eyes of the doctors who get access to my tortured back;
b) I know that I will be sentenced to all kinds of tests and examinations, both necessary and completely unwarranted, and will end up paying a bag of dough, a sum enough to take care of the external debt of a small African country;
b) If I do finally surrender to the doctors, the odds are that they will maim me for good, and my spine will eventually crumble down into my pants.

I know there are good doctors out there, but I donít know where they are and I donít know how to look for them. Moreover, I wonít be able to tell the difference. When I hire teachers, I can more or less trust my guts. (Although shit happens every not and then. Intuition tells you one thing, but your hand signs the contract anyway), But elsewhere Ė well, I would need to be alert as a squirrel.

So what can done? A passage written by Robert Fulghum in his fascinating book All I Really Need to Know I Learned in the Kindergarten comes to my mind. I reread it occasionally, when Iím in a people-are-no-good-mood, and it helps. Fulghum wrote something along the lines that all we really need in life is learned in the sandpile, not in Oxford or Harvard. Rules go as follows:

- Play fair.
- Donít hit people.
- Donít take things that are not yours.
- Say you are sorry when you hurt somebody.
- Flush.
- When you go into the world, watch out, hold hands, and stick together.
- There are more of them, but I just donít remember now.

Now these are good rules for both business conduct and sane living. At the end of the day, itís not about having a certificate or a qualification. Itís all about basic sanitation - being able to clean up your own mess. Iím happy to say that in our school, we do use the Rules of the Sandpile as our basic policy.

Larry Paradine
14-10-2009, 19:50
Like Anna, I didn't intend to post anything more on this topic, but that was before I read Bluebird's hysterical diatribe. Mickey Tong has appreciated the joke anyway! Bluebird, I didn't say or suggest that you wrote an article about purgery, purjery or purgery, I just pointed out your lamentable inability to spell perjury. And I don't need any lessons in legal English, or in the law of defamation as it applies in English law: I teach the former here in Russia, and defamation was my favourite tort subject when I was in law school. I was in the public gallery for the opening of the Aitken v The Guardian case, though unfortunately I wasn't able to attend afterwards, and thought at the time that Aitken could end up in the same mess that Oscar Wilde had got himself into nearly a century earlier when he sued for libel.

GaNozri
14-10-2009, 19:56
Kudos to you! You're so smart Larry. As we say in Russian: "a flag into your hands, and a ruble for the movies"!:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::uk::asskiss::uk::applause::uk::10806:

Bels
14-10-2009, 21:43
Let;s hope that this named and shamed teacher is an exception. And that we can only hope you will have no future problems with your most recent and future employers.

But that's life life when you come to the next stage of having the capability of employing teachers rather than doing it as a partner of two and doing it yourself.

I have discussed this with my partner wife about expansion and change to being a school and increasing the volume in more students. Unfortunately she said NO WAY! And that I should realise what is involved with being licensed, dealing with immigration for work permits, the cost of premises with several classrooms, and getting an increasing number of visiters seeking giftswhen it is realised you are getting a big turnover.

Paranoid? Well she is professional in this field, but one day due to such heavy demand coming from students we might well have to do something about it. Perhaps I might pursuade her one day.

Yes I can only commend directors of schools, and the courage they need to make their school prifitable. It's just one of these things that now and again you might slip up and choose the wrong employee, but that's the way it goes, and that's business. I'm sure there are even bigger problems of being in business in Russia.

Bels
14-10-2009, 21:50
I'm stiil curious of why you find 2,000 roubles per academic hour a ridiculous to charge a group of 8 students for example. I do of course mean the total cost for the whole group as clearly explained in my previous post. I don't find this figure unreasonable if you take into consideration the cost of all your expenses. It's common business sense, and doesn't take much to make a projection in a business plan to find out if your business is going to make a profit.

Bluebird
15-10-2009, 09:49
Kudos to you! You're so smart Larry. As we say in Russian: "a flag into your hands, and a ruble for the movies"!:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::uk::asskiss::uk::applause::uk::10806:Larry, no two ways about it...You're one hell of a smart cookie...Gee, I made a spelling mistake - pon my soul - I committed a cardinal sin and I am being prosecuted for it, by one far more learned than I...I humbly bow before you sire....))):fridaysign::10189::10168::11030:


Success is a lousy teacher. It seduces smart people into thinking they can't lose.Bill Gates (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Bill_Gates/)
US computer software designer & industrialist (1955 - ) :fireworks:

Bels
17-10-2009, 22:21
I'm still waiting as to how much you charge per student, and how many students there are in a group. You have boasted you can keep prices low yet pay your teacher, yourself and cover your costs at a figure less than 2000 roubles per academic hour per group or one student. How do you do it? How much do you earn out of the native speaking teachers' pockets?


My upbringing prevents me from charging students 2000 rubles per academic hour. We keep prices low, but ensure quality. That's why we can't promise our teachers the Moon and accommodation in the Garden of Eden. English is not my native language, whereas, as far as I can get it, Bels claims to be a native. I doubt it. Still, you are free to believe that he can teach your son to be a kind and smart boy. He probably can. It's his ability to teach ENGLISH that is dubious. Again, it's a free world. You make your own choice.

cheriedeperth
18-10-2009, 01:14
I'm still waiting as to how much you charge per student, and how many students there are in a group. You have boasted you can keep prices low yet pay your teacher, yourself and cover your costs at a figure less than 2000 roubles per academic hour per group or one student. How do you do it? How much do you earn out of the native speaking teachers' pockets?

I'm sorry, once again, I don't know anyone here, but I fail to see how it's any of your business how much she charges per student or per hour for a group. She didn't boast, she merely stated that she charges less than 'x' per hour. You charge what you can, and so does she, let it go.

ezik
18-10-2009, 01:44
It may be just me, but I think this thread is going a bit off-topic?

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 03:29
I agree with cheriedeperth - Anna was not bragging - she was merely making a statement. Let's do the decent thing and let it go. It's history now and how other people run and organise their business affairs - is just that..their business and their business only.

And that question is, surely, just a little off topic??? :respect:

In any event I'm sure you will agree (I know you do) with me that Anna has taken a rather moot topic by the scruff of its neck and really shaken up some livley debate and discussion on the point(s) she's raised - from another perspective. Well done Anna!!! :10189: :thumbsup: :10806::boxing:

Anna Lazutkina
18-10-2009, 11:09
I'm still waiting as to how much you charge per student, and how many students there are in a group. You have boasted you can keep prices low yet pay your teacher, yourself and cover your costs at a figure less than 2000 roubles per academic hour per group or one student. How do you do it? How much do you earn out of the native speaking teachers' pockets?

Bels, I think you are deliberately trying to work me up here by using such words as "boast" and sentences like "how much do you earn out of the teachers' pockets". It amuses me. I'm not biting at the bait. You might have probably noticed that our teachers are not exactly banging their heads on the wall in utter despair. As to how we do it - well, if we proceed at this pace, next thing I know you will be requesting a detailed business plan. I'm not about to disclose information that I deed confidential, all the more so considering that I'm not the owner of the business. I didn't create the thread to discuss figures, anyway. I launched into it with the intention of showing that relationship between schools and teachers is a two-way street. If teachers discuss schools - well, it would be quite natural to expect that schools likewise engage in a similar activity. When you look into the abyss, the abyss looks back into you.
Thank you, folks, for sticking it out with me. I enjoyed your company. Let this story sink into Lethe and move on.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 13:17
"When you look into the abyss, the abyss looks back into you."

A very powerful statement...Seems that the abyss and I have been looking at each other for a long time.
:yikes:

Anna Lazutkina
18-10-2009, 13:35
Bluebird, it's not me who says this. It's Nietzsche. And it's not that we are claiming to be an abyss or anything. Well, let me put it differently - it takes two to tango. (My favorite malapropism, coined by one of my students - it takes two to tangle. You betya... )

Clean32
18-10-2009, 15:07
Employers, beware of ***** *****. He is a proud bearer of varied degrees and certificates in EL, claiming to be able to teach what-not aspects of the language (as he advertises himself in the Resume section of expat.ru on 17.05.09). Our school employed him to work with us this academic year, to teach four classes a week. The childish antics of this "teacher" boggle the mind. Apparently, he wasn't satisfied with the fact that he couldn't get away with arriving 10 late for his first class and letting the second class 10 minutes earlier than designated. My (rather delicate) criticism as to the quality of his preparation for the class was not welcome either. Last Friday, he arrived before the beginning of his classes, quietly drew his September salary, discreetly got rid of our books and disappeared, never to be seen again, without so much as a word of warning or explanation, not even a phone call, with 2 groups of 15 each waiting for him in the classroom. What a lamentable, miserable coward! My opinion is that such people should be denied entrance to the country next time they want to obtain a "преподаватель" kind of visa. What do you think?

Anna some thing like this would have worked a bit better. It is at time quite hard to understand or to use an English word in context. Although a dictionary will give a meaning it will not give or explain the possible dramatic effect that is also aroused by a particular usage. There is also the added problem that Russian is quite a bit more “ blunt” or “less tactful” than English. The word Slander has been in this thread and indeed your post is slanderous and in many English countries ( and non English) this would leave you open for prosecution and possibly having to pay money to the person mentioned in your post. This is a result of your approach and not a result of your intent. Sorry its just the way it is. I imagine that you feel possibly a bit disappointed at some of the responding posts, having your self become the target when your intent was to worn others. So intent was correct, message was correct just the style of delivery was wrong. I have quickly re written your original post below as an example. I am not saying this is how it should be written and no two people would write the same any way but it is to give you an idea of a different approach.

Just thought I would post a problem we have experienced at our English school recently. It may be of interest to this forum considering it involves not only our English school “ name of school” and an expat English teacher who advertises on this site. This teacher qualified with EL cert etc was engaged as a part time teacher with 4 classes per week. Although there were some performance issues with being adequately prepared for class and time keeping there appeared to be no real animosity ( if true, if not then state the fact) unfortunately this teacher has disappeared leaving a couple of classes with out there teacher on the day of his disappearance. He did attend work but then disappeared before his classes started. Firstly we are a bit concerned for his safety as there has been no response to our efforts to contact him and secondly we are interested to get our books and other material returned.

Some thing like that, I am sure others could do better.

Bels
18-10-2009, 15:26
LOL. If this doesn't doesn't fire up arguments on both sides I don't know what will. This thread is getting more fiery than most of the threads on current affairs. An individual has been personally attacked, and at least two members on this thread have also been personally attacked with the insinuation that they are smarter than other members here, and at the cost of statements of Oh what a wonderful school we have.

By the way as stated the rate of 1500 to 2000 roubles per hour is not an unreasonable amount to ask for. I wasn't talking about charging a an individual student such an amount to pay for a group. I was talking the total figure for a group or one individual. It's the market rate and I'm very surprised of your claim to charge less. The maths don't fit.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 16:44
Bluebird, it's not me who says this. It's Nietzsche. And it's not that we are claiming to be an abyss or anything. Well, let me put it differently - it takes two to tango. (My favorite malapropism, coined by one of my students - it takes two to tangle. You betya... )I did realise it wasn't you who said that...I've heard of the expression before - I was...Well...Tonki Angliskie humour I guess...Referring to my own personal struggles...

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 16:55
Anna some thing like this would have worked a bit better. It is at time quite hard to understand or to use an English word in context. Although a dictionary will give a meaning it will not give or explain the possible dramatic effect that is also aroused by a particular usage. There is also the added problem that Russian is quite a bit more “ blunt” or “less tactful” than English. The word Slander has been in this thread and indeed your post is slanderous and in many English countries ( and non English) this would leave you open for prosecution and possibly having to pay money to the person mentioned in your post. This is a result of your approach and not a result of your intent. Sorry its just the way it is. I imagine that you feel possibly a bit disappointed at some of the responding posts, having your self become the target when your intent was to worn others. So intent was correct, message was correct just the style of delivery was wrong. I have quickly re written your original post below as an example. I am not saying this is how it should be written and no two people would write the same any way but it is to give you an idea of a different approach.

Just thought I would post a problem we have experienced at our English school recently. It may be of interest to this forum considering it involves not only our English school “ name of school” and an expat English teacher who advertises on this site. This teacher qualified with EL cert etc was engaged as a part time teacher with 4 classes per week. Although there were some performance issues with being adequately prepared for class and time keeping there appeared to be no real animosity ( if true, if not then state the fact) unfortunately this teacher has disappeared leaving a couple of classes with out there teacher on the day of his disappearance. He did attend work but then disappeared before his classes started. Firstly we are a bit concerned for his safety as there has been no response to our efforts to contact him and secondly we are interested to get our books and other material returned.

Some thing like that, I am sure others could do better.

Again a complete misunderstanding of the words slander and slanderous appears here...

Slander (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/defamation.html)involves the making of defamatory statements by a transitory (non-fixed) representation, usually an oral (spoken) representation. Libel involves the making of defamatory statements in a printed or fixed medium, such as a magazine or newspaper. :focus:

Also:

"It is at time quite hard to understand or to use an English word in context. Although a dictionary will give a meaning it will not give or explain the possible dramatic effect that is also aroused by a particular usage. There is also the added problem that Russian is quite a bit more “ blunt” or “less tactful” than Englis"

I'm trying very hard to imagine, what all of the (above) you have written, in your opening volley of shots across Anna's bow, has to do with the topic in question. What is the relevance here?

'There is also the added problem that Russian is quite a bit more “ blunt” or “less tactful” than English.'

And what has this (above) statement got to do with the topic and the price of sliced bread?

Finally, with all due respect, if you are going to give advice (on a public forum) on telling people how to re-write and edit their work - I suggest you pay a little more attention to detail - posting it with a little less haste, thus being devoid of any mistakes whatsoever..."Although there were some performance issues with being adequately prepared for class and time keeping there appeared to be no real animosity ( if true, if not then state the fact) unfortunately this teacher has disappeared leaving a couple of classes with out there teacher on the day of his disappearance.":respect:

Clean32
18-10-2009, 17:03
Again a complete misunderstanding of the word slander and slanderous appears here...

Slander (http://www.expertlaw.com/library/personal_injury/defamation.html)involves the making of defamatory statements by a transitory (non-fixed) representation, usually an oral (spoken) representation. Libel involves the making of defamatory statements in a printed or fixed medium, such as a magazine or newspaper. :focus:


EH??

"she may be liable for her slanderous comments"

to slander " if i remember my case law correctly" a person or entirety in public and to no less than 12 people ( at one time) amounting to a public announcement. or in print or electronic media that is either circulated for fee or for monetary return. either written as a single copy for general circulation ( IE not addressed to an individual) or multiple copies for circulation.

as i stated before, dictionaries are great but NOT the last word.

Just ask Mr Lincoln

Bels
18-10-2009, 17:06
LOL Doctor and Doctor Who arguing with one another :) And the dalek in the middle. Now Who's the real doctor. Believe me it's slander in my eyes. We don't know of this men, and whether he deserves the slander. We can accept a few words and he's not around to defend himself. But whatever, we all know it was wrong of her to write such posts. And I'm there will be many a teacher and a student who would be wary of such an unpleasant character.

Well, it all about Frauds in our midst. But who are the frauds or who is the fraud?

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 17:41
EH??

"she may be liable for her slanderous comments"

to slander " if i remember my case law correctly" a person or entirety in public and to no less than 12 people ( at one time) amounting to a public announcement. or in print or electronic media that is either circulated for fee or for monetary return. either written as a single copy for general circulation ( IE not addressed to an individual) or multiple copies for circulation.

as i stated before, dictionaries are great but NOT the last word.

Just ask Mr LincolnSince when has the written rule of law and tort - written over several centuries, by learned barristers and judges, ever been reduced to that of a mere dictionary?

I'm sure that if there ever were to be a barrister or judge reading your statement; they'd be chortling all the way to the nearest bar, in utter despair, for a stiff shot of whisky.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 17:48
LOL Doctor and Doctor Who arguing with one another :) And the dalek in the middle. Now Who's the real doctor. Believe me it's slander in my eyes. We don't know of this men, and whether he deserves the slander. We can accept a few words and he's not around to defend himself. But whatever, we all know it was wrong of her to write such posts. And I'm there will be many a teacher and a student who would be wary of such an unpleasant character.

Well, it all about Frauds in our midst. But who are the frauds or who is the fraud?Lol...Tis good that two Time Lords do not agree with each other...Makes things all the more interesting...Bring it on...:boxing:

Bels
18-10-2009, 18:03
Lol...Tis good that two Time Lords do not agree with each other...Makes things all the more interesting...Bring it on...:boxing:

Err, may I ask who the 'unpleasant character' is in this case?

I can tell you this much. I wasn't referring to you, clean32 or most of the others who have been active on this thread. Please read again.

Bels
18-10-2009, 18:08
As I said I see it at as slander or at the very least a serious personal attack without us knowing for sure who was really wrong. The man isn't even here to defend himself. Not that expat.roo is a kangaroo court.

MickeyTong
18-10-2009, 18:13
Well, it all about Frauds in our midst. But who are the frauds or who is the fraud?

Gosh, Bels.......I'll have to give that question some serious thought.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 18:24
I can tell you this much. I wasn't referring to you, clean32 or most of the others who have been active on this thread. Please read again.Lol...I see I couldn't draw you out on that question...Bring in Jeremy Paxman...:fudd:

Anna Lazutkina
18-10-2009, 18:40
LOL Doctor and Doctor Who arguing with one another :) And the dalek in the middle. And I'm there will be many a teacher and a student who would be wary of such an unpleasant character.


I'd rather say, it's Bels and Clean 32 in the Encahnted Forest, going in circles, disorientated and lost.

Clean 32, hello. Nice to meet you. You are out of breath, take a seat, have a drink. You are about a week late. We have talked about this already. You are retracing our steps. Surely you don't want to look like a teller of someone else's tales?
As to your editing - thank you for the effort and the trouble you took. You made it a bit too sugar-coated, to my liking. But thanks, anyway.

Bels, a dalek - would that be me? Which makes you a very nice character. A Sunday school teacher indeed. Or were you by any chance :confused1:referring to yourself?

Clean32
18-10-2009, 18:42
Bluebird

i have read and reread your posts, and i can fined no reason for your attack, distortion and negative comments. i fined non of your posts on topic or constructive. how ever i take onboard your comments about my written english which i accept that as you appear to be an english teacher that you feel you must make. how ever i am not an english teacher and i doint give a toss really.

but then i dont seem to be affected by the same insecurities that seem to have prompted or made you feel that you must respond in such a child like :bedtime::bedtime:.

Regards

Bels
18-10-2009, 18:46
Gosh, Bels.......I'll have to give that question some serious thought.

Keep thinking and you will get there. I'm sure I can depend on you Mickey Tong.

Clean32
18-10-2009, 18:47
Since when has the written rule of law and tort - written over several centuries, by learned barristers and judges, ever been reduced to that of a mere dictionary?

I'm sure that if there ever were to be a barrister or judge reading your statement; they'd be chortling all the way to the nearest bar, in utter despair, for a stiff shot of whisky.

you doint have very good reading skills do you ?

Bels
18-10-2009, 18:54
I'd rather say, it's Bels and Clean 32 in the Encahnted Forest, going in circles, disorientated and lost.

Clean 32, hello. Nice to meet you. You are out of breath, take a seat, have a drink. You are about a week late. We have talked about this already. You are retracing our steps. Surely you don't want to look like a teller of someone else's tales?
As to your editing - thank you for the effort and the trouble you took. You made it a bit too sugar-coated, to my liking. But thanks, anyway.

Bels, a dalek - would that be me? Which makes you a very nice character. A Sunday school teacher indeed. Or were you by any chance :confused1:referring to yourself?

Now who's getting lost and going in circles? I've one intention only on this thread that's to going forward. It's you who refuses to move forward with the arguments. As I stated we have someone who choses to personally slander or attack others outside this forum and members of this forum without good reason. This make you a very nasty character indeed.

Anna Lazutkina
18-10-2009, 18:54
I reiterate, there is nothing else to discuss. We have listened to various points of view and made conclusions. I've tried to draw the line many times. Can I please ask everybody to stop turning this thread into an ugly interpersonal spat?

Bels
18-10-2009, 19:07
It will stop if you learn one very important expat rule. Do not personally attack other members of this forum, especially on professional livelyhood matters

And my own rule. Do not attack other teachers that are not aware of your slander, who cannot defend themselves because of not being aware of what is happening on this forum, hence he is unable to defend himself. We don't know the two sides of the story for sure and this poor man may have had his very good reason for what he did. His director might have been a real bitch and impossible to work with. WE DON'T KNOW

And it's disgusting that on his expense you with individual support prometed yourselves high and mighty to state what a lovely school you have.

Are we keeping on topic for this thread still. Yes I think so. Arent I so nice on other threads and posts? :) But with this person of whom I welcomed her as she was and then to be attacked! I'm sorry but the so called high and mighty really got to me.

MickeyTong
18-10-2009, 19:07
Bels..... the way you express yourself gives me serious doubts as to your being a native speaker.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 19:11
Bluebird

i have read and reread your posts, and i can fined no reason for your attack, distortion and negative comments. i fined non of your posts on topic or constructive. how ever i take onboard your comments about my written english which i accept that as you appear to be an english teacher that you feel you must make. how ever i am not an english teacher and i doint give a toss really.

but then i dont seem to be affected by the same insecurities that seem to have prompted or made you feel that you must respond in such a child like :bedtime::bedtime:.

RegardsI can assure you that the feeling is absolutely mutual...And if you can not give a 'toss'...Then why bother in the first place...??? This has nothing to do with being an English teacher...

If you can not, nor want to practice what you preach (on how to properly write and post well-written articles)...Then, I suggest that your comments are rendered to that as about being as useless as an ashtray on a motor bike...:coffee:

It would seem to me that you are very good at dishing out the critique, but not so good at receiving it. Yawn, yawn...Boring...

Clean32
18-10-2009, 19:13
I can assure you that the feeling is absolutely mutual...And if you can not give a 'toss'...Then why bother in the first place...??? This has nothing to do with being an English teacher...

If you can not, nor want to practice what you preach (on how to properly write and post well-written articles)...Then, I suggest that your comments are rendered to that as about being as useless as an ashtray on a motor bike...:coffee:

It would seem to me that you are very good at dishing out the critique, but not so good at receiving it. Yawn, yawn...Boring...

Please actually read my posts, then engage a brain before responding

Bels
18-10-2009, 19:14
Bye the way, what kid couldn't possibly love the thrill of Dr Who and the Daleks. Show the shows to them one day, they will love the programmes and the movies. I remember as a child being so excited to know that this was the day I was going to watch Doctor Who and the Daleks. Believe it or not Beauty and the Beast can be more scary to a child.

My three year old watches me writing on this forum, and all he notices is that he loves this picture of a dalek.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 19:18
It will stop if you learn one very important expat rule. Do not personally attack other members of this forum, especially on professional livelyhood matters

And my own rule. Do not attack other teachers that are not aware of your slander, who cannot defend themselves because of not being aware of what is happening on this forum, hence he is unable to defend himself. We don't know the two sides of the story for sure and this poor man may have had his very good reason for what he did. His director might have been a real bitch and impossible to work with. WE DON'T KNOW

And it's disgusting that on his expense you with individual support prometed yourselves high and mighty to state what a lovely school you have.

Are we keeping on topic for this thread still. Yes I think so. Arent I so nice on other threads and posts? :) But with this person of whom I welcomed her as she was and then to be attacked! I'm sorry but the so called high and mighty really got to me.Time you two sat down for a cuppa, me thinks...:stop:

Bels
18-10-2009, 19:27
Time you two sat down for a cuppa, me thinks...:stop:


An apology would help a lot. It has been a long time since there has been personal attack on here, and had hoped to have put a stop to it. Clean32 knows full well what I am talking about, as he was well active here when the last battles were around. We don't resist when it happens, do we clean32. Of course we give current affairs the exception. Current affairs is current affairs. That's where most of the battles normally lie due to sometimes strong feeling of opinion. But another strong feeling of opinion is the protection of your professionalism and the taking care of your family. Anbody interferes with that and BANG!

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 19:34
Please actually read my posts, then engage a brain before respondingI could suggest likewise...However, in this instance, I was responding to your suggest re-written example, which was clearly written in haste and without due regard for attention to detail. And, as a result, looked sloppy.

Surely, you could not have expected to enter the fray, on this topic, without expecting to become embroiled in it? And, by the way, my comments were not personal, but you have made is so...and that's both childish and mind-numbingly boring...:thumbdwn:

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 19:45
An apology would help a lot. It has been a long time since there has been personal attack on here, and had hoped to have put a stop to it. Clean32 knows full well what I am talking about, as he was well active here when the last battles were around. We don't resist when it happens, do we clean32. Of course we give current affairs the exception. Current affairs is current affairs. That's where most of the battles normally lie due to sometimes strong feeling of opinion. But another strong feeling of opinion is the protection of your professionalism and the taking care of your family. Anbody interferes with that and BANG!Definitely time for that cuppa...Actually, I'm sure if you two were ever to meet - you'd like each other...

One day this soon will all fizzle out, but I feel that some lessons will have been learned by all concerned - should such an issue ever raise its ugly head again.

Therefore, maybe there should be some additional forum rules discussed and enacted to stop such future eventualities. :bookworm:

And, therefore, if nothing else - these tussles will not have been in vain and we will have Anna to thank for that fact.:11033:

Bels
18-10-2009, 20:17
Definitely time for that cuppa...Actually, I'm sure if you two were ever to meet - you'd like each other...

One day this soon will all fizzle out, but I feel that some lessons will have been learned by all concerned - should such an issue ever raise its ugly head again.

Therefore, maybe there should be some additional forum rules discussed and enacted to stop such future eventualities. :bookworm:

And, therefore, if nothing else - these tussles will not have been in vain and we will have Anna to thank for that fact.:11033:


The rules are already there. But that is why I like expat.ru. There is a reasonable amount of leeway, as we really do need to express ourselves sometimes beyond a certain point.
If you remember correctly I invited and welcomed the thread writer here and from another thread previously to go on knowing full well who she was, even though eventually knowing that she broke the barrier eventually.

Yes I wanted this thread to continue as there is more to cover, and also giving her the benifit of the doubt. I know for sure that there was a mod and an admin watching and considering this thread.

It can move move further if there is an an apology from the thread writer.

Good title. Who are the Frauds?

Bels
18-10-2009, 20:21
Bels..... the way you express yourself gives me serious doubts as to your being a native speaker.

I'm an artist :) And you know full well I am British, even though you have never been in Russia. You know full well I am as you have read many of my posts. You havehad everything except seeing my British passport and birth cerificate, due to your activity on expat.ru. And Mickey Tong I also live here, and I thought you were my forum mate. Looks like I was wrong.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 20:23
The rules are already there. But that is why I like expat.ru. There is a reasonable amount of leeway, as we really do need to express ourselves sometimes beyond a certain point.
If you remember correctly I invited and welcomed the thread writer here and from another thread previously to go on knowing full well who she was, even though eventually knowing that she broke the barrier eventually.

Yes I wanted this thread to continue as there is more to cover, and also giving her the benifit of the doubt. I know for sure that there was a mod and an admin watching and considering this thread.

It can move move further if there is an an apology from the thread writer.

Good title. Who are the Frauds?OK, I expected that there were "other" eyes monitoring this thread and I agree to a point on what you've said about 'more to cover.'

However, for what, why and to whom do you feel Anna needs to apologise?

Bels
18-10-2009, 20:39
OK, I expected that there were "other" eyes monitoring this thread and I agree to a point on what you've said about 'more to cover.'

However, for what, why and to whom do you feel Anna needs to apologise?

Many things starting with her arrogance. Slandering a teacher wo is not yet aware he is being slandered publicly, and is unable to argue back. This woman could be a real bitch and we don't know it. She may well be unsuitable for hiring teachers or taking on students. We don't know. And the fact of personally attacking fellow members here when there was no need, with an attempt to destroying their personal integrity. How far can I go to what this woman has done. Her arrogance is despicable and she is incabable of critiscising the way that a native writes or reacts to her posts. Especially when at the beginning she was made most welcome, and from that point she went straight to the jugular. Somebody on this thread made a massive mistake of complimenting her as a good writer, because she was obviously impressed and tried to be more impressive and failed miserably. Keep encouraging her as it is a joke. About intermediate I would say she is, some grammar mistakes, but the biggest problem is the inability to express herself with the appropriate words. Wow! I love this site sometimes! :)

What more can I say. Dalek! exterminate! :)

Bels
18-10-2009, 21:03
And Mickey Tong. You really have disappointed me.I have expressed myself and my opinion many times very strongly on this site many times. And you are aware of this, being also an active member here for a long time. Yet you prefer to continue to make short comments and add a youtube to make your point of view. I can remember only about two out of all your posts where you have displayed yourself or strong opinion. Now there's nothing wrong with joining in with us if you are not living in the country, but occasionaly you should give a bit about yourself, and give a good old blog of what really concerns you. But know I suppose you leave that to people like me, as you are psychiatrist and you have no desire to give of yourself. Only to criticise someone of whom you know full well was born in Scotland but educated and lived in the South of England. That's my life and you know it as you were active in the same threads as I was over several years.

Share yourself here Mickey Tong. Your short cynical comments are appreciated. But please give us a bit of who you are also.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 21:34
Many things starting with her arrogance. Slandering a teacher wo is not yet aware he is being slandered publicly, and is unable to argue back. This woman could be a real bitch and we don't know it. She may well be unsuitable for hiring teachers or taking on students. We don't know. And the fact of personally attacking fellow members here when there was no need, with an attempt to destroying their personal integrity. How far can I go to what this woman has done. Her arrogance is despicable and she is incabable of critiscising the way that a native writes or reacts to her posts. Especially when at the beginning she was made most welcome, and from that point she went straight to the jugular. Somebody on this thread made a massive mistake of complimenting her as a good writer, because she was obviously impressed and tried to be more impressive and failed miserably. Keep encouraging her as it is a joke. About intermediate I would say she is, some grammar mistakes, but the biggest problem is the inability to express herself with the appropriate words. Wow! I love this site sometimes! :)

What more can I say. Dalek! exterminate! :)OK. However, I feel that using the word 'bitch,' with all due respect was and is, in this instance, far from necessary and very and derogatory and I'm a just little surprised at you for using it.

Unsuitable for hiring teachers, she is not - I work with her. She is a superb administrator, line manger and team-mate and, moreover, I do not see how she has failed so miserably in her writing either - especially given the fact that English is not her native tongue...

In deed she was made welcome. However I suggest, she, in all naivety, made the mistake of naming names on a public forum - with nothing less than good intent to try to warn people of this Jon Doe.

I think, in fairness, and looking back with hindsight, you probably did get that ol' red mist rising and come down very heavily on her - also quite publicly and in no uncertain terms, when this Jon Doe was mentioned on her part.

It was, therefore, quite elementary - you reached for your shotgun and she, in her defence, reached for hers: attack, sometimes being the best form; if not the only of defence at the end of the day.

Whether or not she was right or wrong, is debatable. However, she was defending (as she had a perfect right to do so) her stance - her corner and, as a result, it all got a bit personal, as these things so often do. :respect:

I think it's time to draw a line under this and move on.

Bels
18-10-2009, 21:43
I invite other members who for some reason perhaps have been busy in the recent past not only to read the last page but the whole thread and please comment. Many I know of and some I might not. But review the whole thread.

All your genuine comments would be most welcome. I stick to what I have stated. Bitch comes comes to terms when I receive personal attack and the protection of others of whom she has attacked. There are not good founded reasons for such attacks. Hence bitch.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 22:01
I invite other members who for some reason perhaps have been busy in the recent past not only to read the last page but the whole thread and please comment. Many I know of and some I might not. But review the whole thread.

All your genuine comments would be most welcome. I stick to what I have stated. Bitch comes comes to terms when I receive personal attack and the protection of others of whom she has attacked. There are not good founded reasons for such attacks. Hence bitch.I reckon you could end up being sued in the UK, for example, for using that "B" word; n the vain it's being used here... along the lines of using sexual discriminataory comments, or whatever.

Sorry to say it, but I'm surprised at you for stooping to that level...I reckon you could have used a 101 different ways to describe your thoughts/opinions of her...without using that "B" word.

Bels
18-10-2009, 22:07
I'm amazed at you. This woman has been abusing rules of slander, and the rules of personally attacking expat members who welcomed her and for no good reason. You cannot be sued for stating what she is in Britain. The lawyers and court might well come to the same conclusion as I have done.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 22:19
I'm amazed at you. This woman has been abusing rules of slander, and the rules of personally attacking members who welcomed her and for no good reason. You cannot be sued for stating wht she is in Britaian. The lawyers and court might come to the same conclusion as I have done.Well, if you were trying to set an example and of good (forum) behaviour and etiquette - and get an apology from Anna into the bargain - I feel that that all unravelled with your resorting to using that "B" word to describe her.

Sorry mate, but I do not feel you have done yourself any favours by going down that road. I might be wrong...??? I hope I am...But, I didn't like it...

Will
18-10-2009, 22:25
Bels, maybe you could consider calming down a little.
You have two posters here who have vouched for the decency of the school, and of the poster, unless you are figuring Bluebird and I are incapable of clear judgement or pursuing some sinister agenda, you might want to slow down with the "Bitch" stuff and the indignation. It is only a forum after all.
In my experience of heated on line exchanges, no one ever really regrets not posting and it's hard to see what good can come of continuing in this vein.

Leave it a while, always works for me.

Bels
18-10-2009, 22:38
To be honest I have been quite calm considering. I promise no more od=f the bitch word. I also promise no more of the lander or persoanal attack to members word. And perhaps \i should promote what a wonderful school sh has, well no. But do promise to move on and no longer such deserved words.

Bluebird
18-10-2009, 22:40
Bels, maybe you could consider calming down a little.
You have two posters here who have vouched for the decency of the school, and of the poster, unless you are figuring Bluebird and I are incapable of clear judgement or pursuing some sinister agenda, you might want to slow down with the "Bitch" stuff and the indignation. It is only a forum after all.
In my experience of heated on line exchanges, no one ever really regrets not posting and it's hard to see what good can come of continuing in this vein.

Leave it a while, always works for me.Thank you - that was the whole point of my saying to him, earlier, to draw a line under it and move on...

Bless em, the ol' Dalek...seems to be overheating a little...Even having a swipe at his ol' forum buddy, Micky Tong to boot...

Bels
18-10-2009, 22:58
Boy oH Boy I have said enough. Time to hear from other members, is this peak period for other members:) And I keep saying I'm keeping my cool under ther the circumstances. Sorry I am a delek, not the Hulk.

Bluebird
20-10-2009, 15:10
Boy oH Boy I have said enough. Time to hear from other members, is this peak period for other members:) And I keep saying I'm keeping my cool under ther the circumstances. Sorry I am a delek, not the Hulk.So, where do we go on this topic from here then folks?

It would be a shame to let it die completely, because I do agree with Bels - there is a lot to cover, which Anna, unwittingly opened up for debate, I feel. :ninja:

GaNozri
20-10-2009, 15:41
After reading all this, I have one thing to say:

- "Kids, don't learn English, learn Chinese!"

Bels
20-10-2009, 23:16
Just let me give a scenario.
You are an experienced professionally qualified EFL teacher. You have been teaching a group of students for some time and your class is rudely interrupted by some Russian administrator. Director or whatever title you like to call it.

If this person who is in no way qualified in criticising your professional methods of teaching walks directly into your classroom to observe you teaching your teaching methods, and interferes in what your students should do and what you as a teacher should do in teaching. What would you do?

I personally would walk out of that school and start finding my own classroom to teach my students in peace and get the job done properly without any non professional nonsense from those who donít know where they are coming from.

Bels
20-10-2009, 23:40
Let me add how I experienced how it was when I was an EFL teacher in Summer school Oxford. The procedure was yes that a senior qualified teacher would come in to observe you teaching your students. You signed a form accepting this and you would be observed quietly without interruption from the observer. Perhaps a little friendly joining in, but they do nothing to offend the teacher or the students. And yes they really were highly qualified. At least DELTA

In such a case the observer is well qualified and acts in a proper manner everything is fine, and you as a teacher receive good credit on document as being observed. This helps a lot for you if you have being doing a TESOL course for example. As You will need observed classroom teaching as part of your credibility in a C.V

Bluebird
21-10-2009, 00:51
Let me add how I experienced how it was when I was an EFL teacher in Summer school Oxford. The procedure was yes that a senior qualified teacher would come in to observe you teaching your students. You signed a form accepting this and you would be observed quietly without interruption from the observer. Perhaps a little friendly joining in, but they do nothing to offend the teacher or the students. And yes they really were highly qualified. At least DELTA

In such a case the observer is well qualified and acts in a proper manner everything is fine, and you as a teacher receive good credit on document as being observed. This helps a lot for you if you have being doing a TESOL course for example. As You will need observed classroom teaching as part of your credibility in a C.VLol...Like me you've definitely been here too long now...That aspect, of the nuances of working here in Russia as an ELT teacher has always been a real bone of contention with me.

Infact that very thing happened with a very apt and experienced friend and colleague of mine over the weekend...When I saw him on Monday morning he was all but foaming at the mouth about it.

He told me that he called the school's director down, on her mobile (who knew nothing about it, as it transpired) and he told her - he's outta that door if it ever happens again.

The school's (female) director then duly unleashed a torrent of verbal of shite on her subordinates head - in front of him and forced her to apologise to him immediately. Apparently she was livid with rage, when she arrived on the scene and her victim's face just turned as white as a sheet.

As he said to me..."Being observed unexpectedly was one thing and not a real problem in itself." "But, then for her to stand up at the back and say the I was doing it wrong - in front of the children, was just taking things way over the mark and I stopped the class and got on my mobile there and then to the director."

And this is a man, with over twenty years of experience of with working with children - teaching them English, and more degrees than I can shake a stick at...Including an internationally recognised head master's degree.

Whenever I have worked in the UK and even the BC here - being observed is a part of the course - the territory. However, one is given warning and bits of paper to sign and a thorough feedback session, afterwards.

Moskauerin
21-10-2009, 21:27
Maybe it is none of my business because I am not a practicing teacher, but I would like to say a couple of words in this discussion.

Actually it caught my eye because the word "fraud" kept appearing every day in this section. So I finally decided to look because it sounded serious repeated for several days running. I have looked through the whole topic.

I do not know any of the participants in this discussion personally, so I am not arbitrary. I just make conclusions from what I have read.

My first reaction to the initial post was that the topic starter is maybe right, but I also felt some sympathy for the unfortunate teacher who left so abruptly. So the complaint may have certain grounds under it. But if I were spoken to in such a tone, I would flee too!

In fact the Russian internet at least has several sites where companies and employees exchange criticisms, sometimes outrageous. There are black lists of job seeking applicants made by companies, and there are forums with harsh discussion by employees. So basically the thing is not new.

What struck me later and was really very unpleasant and appalling is the tone of the topic starter. It was really so arrogant and snobbish that her perfect command of English could not excuse it. I would never risk telling a native speaker directly in the face: "I will never employ you at my school" or "Your style is sloppy, and you make mistakes". Everybody makes mistakes, even, and maybe first and foremost, we Russians make mistakes when speaking our native language. So what?

Maybe the school mentioned by the topic starter is in itself good. I have looked at their site today, and at the first glance it looks OK, even if it positions itself as highly exclusive, and advertises itself by word of mouth.

The discussion is practically over and I am not the one to judge. But I was so shocked and disgusted by the snobbishness of the topic starter that I could not keep silent! Her posts sounded to me like lecturing, and their style was more like the classical English literature of the 19th century rather than modern conversational English. There is no need to be "jugular", there is enough aggression in our life. It is time to be merciful and friendly and polite.

After all I would like to raise the practical and not the moral aspect of what happens if a teacher abandons his class. Does the school have to compensate the lost class to the students? Does it sign any contracts with the parents? Any contract should foresee clauses for skipped classes and force-majeure. Finally, the responsibility for recruiting the right employees is on the employer. There should be proper checks, not only of skills but also psychological to determine how reliable a person is, etc.

I agree that the situation described in the initial post is bad, but it is life after all (as the topic starter recognised in one of her later posts) and it is never perfect. I think that a less emotional report on the whole thing would be much more fruitful and constructive and would not lead to a heated discussion which ended in personal insults.

I am aware that the topic starter maybe will not read my post because she resigned from the discussion. But I think I would be ready to repeat it to her personally very well.

So no offence meant, just wanted to share my impression with you.

tvadim133
21-10-2009, 21:41
I can not push the "Thanks" button 1000 times, that is why I do it in the post, Moskauerin!!!!!!!!!

Bels
21-10-2009, 21:52
Moskauerin, you have just taken all the words out of my head of which I have chosen not to write due to m y personality. Well done! I totally agree with all that you have stated. It also confirms my suspicion of whether this woman is suitable for the position she has with this this school. She should be very careful in attempting to attack professional teachers of their abilities, when her abilities have obviously shown that she is way below the level of a professional native speaking EFL teacher. How on earth did she get this position, especially in how she has shown her behaviour on this forum of being completely unprofessional.

Let's move on on how a professional or newly qualified should be observed and encouraged to work as a teacher, for a newly qualified teacher this woman may well be very scary, but for a professional she should be told to p#ss off and allow the professional to do their job. Of course if she happens to be a DOE qualified DELT for example you wouldn't. But such people wouldn't behave in such a manner.

So thank you . You have an open and understanding mind and that is because you have read this whole thread. Perhaps you have the qualities of being a very good judge. I hope others in Russia are as understanding as you. Strange as it might seem I have found Russians this way, apart from those of whom we have to deal with red-tape. I wonder why that is :)


Maybe it is none of my business because I am not a practicing teacher, but I would like to say a couple of words in this discussion.

Actually it caught my eye because the word "fraud" kept appearing every day in this section. So I finally decided to look because it sounded serious repeated for several days running. I have looked through the whole topic.

I do not know any of the participants in this discussion personally, so I am not arbitrary. I just make conclusions from what I have read.

My first reaction to the initial post was that the topic starter is maybe right, but I also felt some sympathy for the unfortunate teacher who left so abruptly. So the complaint may have certain grounds under it. But if I were spoken to in such a tone, I would flee too!

In fact the Russian internet at least has several sites where companies and employees exchange criticisms, sometimes outrageous. There are black lists of job seeking applicants made by companies, and there are forums with harsh discussion by employees. So basically the thing is not new.

What struck me later and was really very unpleasant and appalling is the tone of the topic starter. It was really so arrogant and snobbish that her perfect command of English could not excuse it. I would never risk telling a native speaker directly in the face: "I will never employ you at my school" or "Your style is sloppy, and you make mistakes". Everybody makes mistakes, even, and maybe first and foremost, we Russians make mistakes when speaking our native language. So what?

Maybe the school mentioned by the topic starter is in itself good. I have looked at their site today, and at the first glance it looks OK, even if it positions itself as highly exclusive, and advertises itself by word of mouth.

The discussion is practically over and I am not the one to judge. But I was so shocked and disgusted by the snobbishness of the topic starter that I could not keep silent! Her posts sounded to me like lecturing, and their style was more like the classical English literature of the 19th century rather than modern conversational English. There is no need to be "jugular", there is enough aggression in our life. It is time to be merciful and friendly and polite.

After all I would like to raise the practical and not the moral aspect of what happens if a teacher abandons his class. Does the school have to compensate the lost class to the students? Does it sign any contracts with the parents? Any contract should foresee clauses for skipped classes and force-majeure. Finally, the responsibility for recruiting the right employees is on the employer. There should be proper checks, not only of skills but also psychological to determine how reliable a person is, etc.

I agree that the situation described in the initial post is bad, but it is life after all (as the topic starter recognised in one of her later posts) and it is never perfect. I think that a less emotional report on the whole thing would be much more fruitful and constructive and would not lead to a heated discussion which ended in personal insults.

I am aware that the topic starter maybe will not read my post because she resigned from the discussion. But I think I would be ready to repeat it to her personally very well.

So no offence meant, just wanted to share my impression with you.

Bels
21-10-2009, 22:07
I can not push the "Thanks" button 1000 times, that is why I do it in the post, Moskauerin!!!!!!!!!

And for such a comment I say Thanks, thanks, thanks,thanks thanks,thanks.
Tvadim.

I really do believe he read the whole thread and gave his honest thoughts. That's the judge I would love if i had ever got into trouble. Simply an honest open judge.

tvadim133
21-10-2009, 22:10
She.....:10301: she read very carefuly

Bels
21-10-2009, 22:28
Sorry, but I have now read her profile. I won't forfet from now on. Perhaps women make better judges. And as shown others ban be right b*****s.

Will
21-10-2009, 22:35
I really do believe he read the whole thread and gave his honest thoughts. That's the judge I would love if i had ever got into trouble. Simply an honest open judge.

You already had a few of those, seems you were merely looking for one who agreed with you.
I'm done here, but I'll leave you with a reiteration of the the fact that neither the school nor the original poster are guilty of any of the increasingly hysterical accusations that have tarnished this thread and the willingness to dismiss those who have made this point with perfect courtesy speaks poorly for these claims of balance.
But you knew that

Bels
21-10-2009, 22:50
You already had a few of those, seems you were merely looking for one who agreed with you.
I'm done here, but I'll leave you with a reiteration of the the fact that neither the school nor the original poster are guilty of any of the increasingly hysterical accusations that have tarnished this thread and the willingness to dismiss those who have made this point with perfect courtesy speaks poorly for these claims of balance.
But you knew that

The original poster as you have claimed or the thread writer could have handled thread much better than she did. She obviously created an expected response and she got it. She not only attacked an unknown but also attacked another welcoming member of this forum of whom questioned her claims. What kind of character does it make her in reality.

It reminds me of another Russian director or whatever from another school who was of simular character who is still in our archives. Does anybody remember that school? Heavily put down for similar reasons and who was interfering with the native speaking teachers profession and integrity. This is yet another one doing the same mistake and typical of many Russian managed english language centres in Russia.

I;m sorry, but it doesn't happen with the major English managed language centres in Russia. Big difference and that is why they give better results in English, because they know what they are doing.

Bluebird
22-10-2009, 00:06
The original poster as you have claimed or the thread writer could have handled thread much better than she did. She obviously created an expected response and she got it. She not only attacked an unknown but also attacked another welcoming member of this forum of whom questioned her claims. What kind of character does it make her in reality.

It reminds me of another Russian director or whatever from another school who was of simular character who is still in our archives. Does anybody remember that school? Heavily put down for similar reasons and who was interfering with the native speaking teachers profession and integrity. This is yet another one doing the same mistake and typical of many Russian managed english language centres in Russia.

I;m sorry, but it doesn't happen with the major English managed language centres in Russia. Big difference and that is why they give better results in English, because they know what they are doing.The original poster as you have claimed or the thread writer could have handled thread much better than she did.

And so could you have handled things a lot more diplomatically and differently - instead of trying shout her down, at the very start, with bully boy tactics and size nine hob-nailed boots, which you did from the very start of her posting the start of this thread - just because you did not like it. And so you flew into a rage - it was written all over your style of writing.

You created the gunship diplomacy here - not her...If you did not agree with her, you could have handled it a whole lot more differently and far more diplomatically - instead of calling for the moderators and a whole posse to hunt her down and out. And you know what...??? She gave as good as she got!!! For she did not put her fingers in her mouth and cry ga, ga and tremble and go all wobbly; in the face e of your unrestrained tirade against her.

And for you to start calling her a "bitch" - to me that would even suggest that she had, perhaps, outsmarted you, with words and use of the English language, during the course of the argument. Cos when a person starts resorting to that type of language, in public...Then to me it suggests that that person's now clutching at straws - cos there's nothing else left to hang on to. She beat you with the very tools of your trade - good usage of the English language...Ironic, don't you think?

As I've already said - you reached for your gun and she reached for hers...What did you expect...??? What she did, she did with good intent - albeit out of complete naivety, I suggest.

You could have sent her a discreet PM; saying that, 'that's not quite right to name names on here' - or something like that. Instead you laid into her like hurricane Katrina and an oversized Dalek troopship - and very publicly too!!! And that smacks of nasty bully boy tactics to me.

And, you "made her welcome." And so what...??? I make my in-laws welcome in my house every Christmas and guess what...??? We still end up arguing over something or other. Grow up!!!

pjw
22-10-2009, 01:24
Right. All of U. It's time for peace. I know U're all offended and I understand why, but now it's time to respect and accept and forgive. This bickering is nerving me. NOW STOP IT!

Anna Lazutkina
22-10-2009, 01:54
.

It is time to be merciful and friendly and polite.



Dear Moskauerin, thank you for your valuable (no irony implied) insights. But just tell me one thing. If a dentist pulls out fifteen of your good teeth instead of a rotten one, will you be willing to remain merciful, friendly and polite? Will your "upbringing" stop you from voicing your (unflattering) opinion? When you are blatanlty wronged, are you ever just as calm and cool? If positive, then you are a saint and will be canonized.

To Bels - well, apparently, any port in a storm will do. Even a haven provided by someone who has never tried teaching, much less running a school, but, for some reason, feels free to give away free advice on how to employ teachers, and doesn't not hesitate to pass judgment on how we teach. If that's not presumption, then I don't know what is.

Lamentably, this thread has become a tool for Bels' petty and personal vendetta for something that, let's make no bones about it, is evident not only to me, and has only come into argument due to my inability to make head or tail of a belligerent message I received. He is desperate to have the last say in this argument - and he most probably will, in fact, have the last word, because nobody else in his/her right mind will be willing to continue this ad infinitum and ad nauseam (Well, nauseaum has already kicked in). People have a life to live and things to do, so no matter how hard Bels tries to keep it afloat, things will fizzle out. And if "a bitch" is his final argument - well, that's pretty pathetic.

Anna Lazutkina
22-10-2009, 01:55
Right. All of U. It's time for peace. I know U're all offended and I understand why, but now it's time to respect and accept and forgive. This bickering is nerving me. NOW STOP IT!

Yes, sir!

Moskauerin
22-10-2009, 09:52
:10600: :shhhhhh:

Bluebird
22-10-2009, 10:02
Maybe it is none of my business because I am not a practicing teacher, but I would like to say a couple of words in this discussion.

Actually it caught my eye because the word "fraud" kept appearing every day in this section. So I finally decided to look because it sounded serious repeated for several days running. I have looked through the whole topic.

I do not know any of the participants in this discussion personally, so I am not arbitrary. I just make conclusions from what I have read.

My first reaction to the initial post was that the topic starter is maybe right, but I also felt some sympathy for the unfortunate teacher who left so abruptly. So the complaint may have certain grounds under it. But if I were spoken to in such a tone, I would flee too!

In fact the Russian internet at least has several sites where companies and employees exchange criticisms, sometimes outrageous. There are black lists of job seeking applicants made by companies, and there are forums with harsh discussion by employees. So basically the thing is not new.

What struck me later and was really very unpleasant and appalling is the tone of the topic starter. It was really so arrogant and snobbish that her perfect command of English could not excuse it. I would never risk telling a native speaker directly in the face: "I will never employ you at my school" or "Your style is sloppy, and you make mistakes". Everybody makes mistakes, even, and maybe first and foremost, we Russians make mistakes when speaking our native language. So what?

Maybe the school mentioned by the topic starter is in itself good. I have looked at their site today, and at the first glance it looks OK, even if it positions itself as highly exclusive, and advertises itself by word of mouth.

The discussion is practically over and I am not the one to judge. But I was so shocked and disgusted by the snobbishness of the topic starter that I could not keep silent! Her posts sounded to me like lecturing, and their style was more like the classical English literature of the 19th century rather than modern conversational English. There is no need to be "jugular", there is enough aggression in our life. It is time to be merciful and friendly and polite.

After all I would like to raise the practical and not the moral aspect of what happens if a teacher abandons his class. Does the school have to compensate the lost class to the students? Does it sign any contracts with the parents? Any contract should foresee clauses for skipped classes and force-majeure. Finally, the responsibility for recruiting the right employees is on the employer. There should be proper checks, not only of skills but also psychological to determine how reliable a person is, etc.

I agree that the situation described in the initial post is bad, but it is life after all (as the topic starter recognised in one of her later posts) and it is never perfect. I think that a less emotional report on the whole thing would be much more fruitful and constructive and would not lead to a heated discussion which ended in personal insults.

I am aware that the topic starter maybe will not read my post because she resigned from the discussion. But I think I would be ready to repeat it to her personally very well.

So no offence meant, just wanted to share my impression with you.Many thanks for your contribution and thoughts on this thread, which are very welcome. However, I do have some questions for you, regarding the points you have raised.

A) But I was so shocked and disgusted by the snobbishness of the topic starter that I could not keep silent! In what respect was she being arrogant and snobbish?

B) What struck me later and was really very unpleasant and appalling is the tone of the topic starter. In what way was her tone 'very unpleasant and appalling?'

C) Her posts sounded to me like lecturing, and their style was more like the classical English literature of the 19th century rather than modern conversational English. How and in what respect, did Anna's posts sound like 'lecturing?' And, why do you say that her style was more like 'the classical English of the 19th century, rather than modern?' Could you give us some examples?

D) My first reaction to the initial post was that the topic starter is maybe right, but I also felt some sympathy for the unfortunate teacher who left so abruptly. So the complaint may have certain grounds under it. But if I were spoken to in such a tone, I would flee too! This statement is far too ambiguous...' But if I were spoken to in such a tone, I would flee too! Please explain this a little more clearly, if you would be so kind.

For example: are you making reference to his fleeing the school or this forum? And on what grounds do you base your statement, 'if I were spoken to in such a tone...' Are you suggesting that he was spoken to in 'such a tone,' at the school or here, on this forum? Also, why is this teacher 'unfortunate?'

E) Finally, the responsibility for recruiting the right employees is on the employer. There should be proper checks, not only of skills but also psychological to determine how reliable a person is, etc. To a point you are quite correct here. However, it is often the case of: just when you think you have found the right person for the job that everyone realises that a serious mistake might have been made, which can be and usually is, very costly.

All the psychological tests in the world will never completely allow for the human factor - of people being people. Having being involved in recruitment and HR affairs, I can speak from first hand experience. :respect:

Clean32
22-10-2009, 10:23
Moskauerin

Please do not feed the Troll





Many thanks for your contribution and thoughts on this thread, which are very welcome. However, I do have some questions for you, regarding the points you have raised.

A) But I was so shocked and disgusted by the snobbishness of the topic starter that I could not keep silent! In what respect was she being arrogant and snobbish?

B) What struck me later and was really very unpleasant and appalling is the tone of the topic starter. In what way was her tone 'very unpleasant and appalling?'

C) Her posts sounded to me like lecturing, and their style was more like the classical English literature of the 19th century rather than modern conversational English. How and in what respect, did Anna's posts sound like 'lecturing?' And, why do you say that her style was more like 'the classical English of the 19th century, rather than modern?' Could you give us some examples?

D) My first reaction to the initial post was that the topic starter is maybe right, but I also felt some sympathy for the unfortunate teacher who left so abruptly. So the complaint may have certain grounds under it. But if I were spoken to in such a tone, I would flee too! This statement is far too ambiguous...' But if I were spoken to in such a tone, I would flee too! Please explain this a little more clearly, if you would be so kind.

For example: are you making reference to his fleeing the school or this forum? And on what grounds do you base your statement, 'if I were spoken to in such a tone...' Are you suggesting that he was spoken to in 'such a tone,' at the school or here, on this forum? Also, why is this teacher 'unfortunate?'

E) Finally, the responsibility for recruiting the right employees is on the employer. There should be proper checks, not only of skills but also psychological to determine how reliable a person is, etc. To a point you are quite correct here. However, it is often the case of: just when you think you have found the right person for the job that everyone realises that a serious mistake might have been made, which can be and usually is, very costly.

All the psychological tests in the world will never completely allow for the human factor - of people being people. Having being involved in recruitment and HR affairs, I can speak from first hand experience. :respect:

Moskauerin
22-10-2009, 10:56
Wow! No, I'd better not feed really. I know that I will never pass this "EGE" (Ediniy Gosudarstvenniy Ekzamen" - Unified State Exam). I have lost my case. Hands up! I throw the white flag and surrender...

Moskauerin
22-10-2009, 11:00
After all, I am a mere nobody, not even a teacher, to say nothing about not being a native speaker of high breed. Just a little humble useless Moskauerin. I am asking myself: how dare I speak and raise my voice in the high society and express some shi*ty opinions about teaching? It serves me right. I'd better mind my own business.

Clean32
22-10-2009, 11:25
After all, I am a mere nobody, not even a teacher, to say nothing about not being a native speaker of high breed. Just a little humble useless Moskauerin. I am asking myself: how dare I speak and raise my voice in the high society and express some shi*ty opinions about teaching? It serves me right. I'd better mind my own business.

on the contrary Moskauerin, your well written balanced and tactful post, i would say was appreciated by the majority. As this is a public forum you had every wright to post your views. Regardless of not being an English teacher your word smithing in its self demonstrates that you have had a lot of contact with english teachers as well as, i suspect english teachers of a high caliber. This alone i believe puts yourself in an ideal situation to comment.

that said

As to Bluebird's post. He or She (i suspect a very nasty she going by the venom that seems to flow though her fingers to her keyboard, if she is a he then i suspect he has had a rather unhappy childhood or just a disturbing one)
i would advice just to take no notice. her Tack of taking posts out of context and deliberately distorting the intent of a post is just her way of getting a response. she must have a very lonely life------ sympathy

Bluebird
22-10-2009, 21:09
on the contrary Moskauerin, your well written balanced and tactful post, i would say was appreciated by the majority. As this is a public forum you had every wright to post your views. Regardless of not being an English teacher your word smithing in its self demonstrates that you have had a lot of contact with english teachers as well as, i suspect english teachers of a high caliber. This alone i believe puts yourself in an ideal situation to comment.

that said

As to Bluebird's post. He or She (i suspect a very nasty she going by the venom that seems to flow though her fingers to her keyboard, if she is a he then i suspect he has had a rather unhappy childhood or just a disturbing one)
i would advice just to take no notice. her Tack of taking posts out of context and deliberately distorting the intent of a post is just her way of getting a response. she must have a very lonely life------ sympathyWell, I never said that her post was not well-written nor without tact...However she made sweeping statements, which I merely asked her to justify - point by point - in order that we might learn from her learned wisdom and insight. This she apparently she can not do. I, therefore, rest my case.

And, of course, she has every right to express her views. But with that right to express one's views, comes the equal right of reply and replies/questions which might sometimes be hard to stomach and/or answer.

About your comments about me - no comment...I would not want to waste perfectly good "venom" on you...Especially being as you're somewhat incapable and inept - not just at spelling, but of holding a logical argument and debate, without getting personal - idiot!!! I do not believe in wasting my time on imbeciles.:asskiss:

Bels
22-10-2009, 21:18
Give Bluebird some credit where it's due Clean32. I didn't mind Blue Bird's thank yous and posts until his or her last post. Why? Because he or she fueled the fire in this thread. Without Bluebird a lot could not have been said. Why? We need to be fed. We can't continuously type our own posts as if we are talking to ourselves. We needed the fuel and Bluebird was the fuel to keep it going. Bluebird wanted it that way, and I with a few others obliged. I've enjoyed the thread and contrary to what Blue bird thought, I wasn't frothing at the mouth in fury and anger with any of the discussion within this thread. I have enjoyed it.


on the contrary Moskauerin, your well written balanced and tactful post, i would say was appreciated by the majority. As this is a public forum you had every wright to post your views. Regardless of not being an English teacher your word smithing in its self demonstrates that you have had a lot of contact with english teachers as well as, i suspect english teachers of a high caliber. This alone i believe puts yourself in an ideal situation to comment.


that said

As to Bluebird's post. He or She (i suspect a very nasty she going by the venom that seems to flow though her fingers to her keyboard, if she is a he then i suspect he has had a rather unhappy childhood or just a disturbing one)
i would advice just to take no notice. her Tack of taking posts out of context and deliberately distorting the intent of a post is just her way of getting a response. she must have a very lonely life------ sympathy

Bluebird
22-10-2009, 21:29
Give Bluebird some credit where it's due Clean32. I didn't mind Blue Bird's thank yous and posts until his or her last post. Why? Because he or she fueled the fire in this thread. Without Bluebird a lot could not have been said. Why? We need to be fed. We can't continuously type our own posts as if we are talking to ourselves. We needed the fuel and Bluebird was the fuel to keep it going. Bluebird wanted it that way, and I with a few others obliged. I've enjoyed the thread and contrary to what Blue bird thought, I wasn't frothing at the mouth in fury and anger with any of the discussion within this thread. I have enjoyed it.Thank you - that's because I do genuinely enjoy live debate. And despite our different points of view - I too have enjoyed the debate and I feel that things have been learned. :book:

And, yes, I made a decision to defend Anna, because I admired her guts, which was and is my fundamental right and freedom of choice. And, defend her I shall:boxing:

Moreover, if we all held the same point of view - it's all be pretty boring. :snoring:

Whaaaatttt...Life without a good old ruck...??? Can't imagine it...Foam, foam...:ninja:

xSnoofovich
22-10-2009, 21:41
I didn't read this entire thread. Don't have to. The guy that just bailed on his job was wrong.

In fact, one word.

Selfish !

The rest is justification !



The original poster as you have claimed or the thread writer could have handled thread much better than she did.

And so could you have handled things a lot more diplomatically and differently - instead of trying shout her down, at the very start, with bully boy tactics and size nine hob-nailed boots, which you did from the very start of her posting the start of this thread - just because you did not like it. And so you flew into a rage - it was written all over your style of writing.

You created the gunship diplomacy here - not her...If you did not agree with her, you could have handled it a whole lot more differently and far more diplomatically - instead of calling for the moderators and a whole posse to hunt her down and out. And you know what...??? She gave as good as she got!!! For she did not put her fingers in her mouth and cry ga, ga and tremble and go all wobbly; in the face e of your unrestrained tirade against her.

And for you to start calling her a "bitch" - to me that would even suggest that she had, perhaps, outsmarted you, with words and use of the English language, during the course of the argument. Cos when a person starts resorting to that type of language, in public...Then to me it suggests that that person's now clutching at straws - cos there's nothing else left to hang on to. She beat you with the very tools of your trade - good usage of the English language...Ironic, don't you think?

As I've already said - you reached for your gun and she reached for hers...What did you expect...??? What she did, she did with good intent - albeit out of complete naivety, I suggest.

You could have sent her a discreet PM; saying that, 'that's not quite right to name names on here' - or something like that. Instead you laid into her like hurricane Katrina and an oversized Dalek troopship - and very publicly too!!! And that smacks of nasty bully boy tactics to me.

And, you "made her welcome." And so what...??? I make my in-laws welcome in my house every Christmas and guess what...??? We still end up arguing over something or other. Grow up!!!

Bluebird
22-10-2009, 21:50
I didn't read this entire thread. Don't have to. The guy that just bailed on his job was wrong.

In fact, one word.

Selfish !

The rest is justification !Bring it on - we're all selfish to some sort of degree...:p But thanks for the other bit - the contrast...:10455:

Bels
22-10-2009, 22:01
Thankyou Bluebird. You are back in my good books again for the moment. I do honestly think the current argument has now been exhaausted and readers here will make there own decisions from the arguments. A few have already done so so and all of them are highly respcted in my view. Including PJW's. But I have a fondness for the title in this thread and it deserves great respect. Frauds in our Midst I love it. Did it take take much time to think of this title and it's meaning, or did it come from top of your head like a native. Because I think it's a brilliant title and gives a lot of thought for both sides of an argument. It's the title that drew me here, something like the Sun would envy as a top heading in their newspaper. Love it and we can talk on from this title. Give me title unless someone else can fuel our fire.

Bels
22-10-2009, 22:05
I recommend you read all of it. Otherwise you can't comment. When you have read it all your comments would be much appreciated knowing. Nope :) We haven't always agreed, but we have sometimes. But I am aware of your experiences here, so your opinion would be valid if you could only read it all.


I didn't read this entire thread. Don't have to. The guy that just bailed on his job was wrong.

In fact, one word.

Selfish !

The rest is justification !

Bels
22-10-2009, 22:16
Do we have any idea why this guy bailed out, what problems might he have had? What pressures might he have been under? Did the shool really upset him? Was he short of cash and just enough to get home. The fact is we don't know what this guy was experiencing. And I'm sorry if I feel sympathy for a guy looking for something in a strange country and things don't go his worry. I really do sypathise for such people and the fact is we don't know. Unless this guy can speak up here somehow. I feel him in my heart, as something went wrong and we we have only one side of the story. Sometimes I feel I have a sixth sense and I feel something is missing.


I didn't read this entire thread. Don't have to. The guy that just bailed on his job was wrong.

In fact, one word.

Selfish !

The rest is justification !

ezik
22-10-2009, 22:23
I agree, Bels.
It's one side of the story. Unless there is a lot of new information coming through, I would suggest to quietly put this thread to an end.

Anna Lazutkina
22-10-2009, 22:47
It's the title that drew me here, something like the Sun would envy as a top heading in their newspaper. Love it and we can talk on from this title. Give me title unless someone else can fuel our fire.[/QUOTE]


Wow, maybe I'm wasting my time teaching?

Bels, I offer a truce and an olive branch. You can be very annoying, that's true, but one would definitely have to hand it to you - many of your posts are useful, especially to those who are new to the country. You have a good heart. I believe that, just like me, you are a fighter for justice, the problem being that there is no single definition and interpretation of justice. As it happens, justice is so polysemantic. I've met some wonderful people here, have made some friends, and have no intention of bearing any grudge against somebody. Nor do I want anybody to harbour a grudge against me. So?

Bluebird
22-10-2009, 23:05
Do we have any idea why this guy bailed out, what problems might he have had? What pressures might he have been under? Did the shool really upset him? Was he short of cash and just enough to get home. The fact is we don't know what this guy was experiencing. And I'm sorry if I feel sympathy for a guy looking for something in a strange country and things don't go his worry. I really do sypathise for such people and the fact is we don't know. Unless this guy can speak up here somehow. I feel him in my heart, as something went wrong and we we have only one side of the story. Sometimes I feel I have a sixth sense and I feel something is missing.OK...Fair comment - he could have suffered a nervous breakdown and/or have been suffering from acute depression.

But surely if he'd spoken to someone about it - appropriate action could have been taken and even help rendered. So, benefit of the doubt...???

Bluebird
22-10-2009, 23:08
It's the title that drew me here, something like the Sun would envy as a top heading in their newspaper. Love it and we can talk on from this title. Give me title unless someone else can fuel our fire.


Wow, maybe I'm wasting my time teaching?

Bels, I offer a truce and an olive branch. You can be very annoying, that's true, but one would definitely have to hand it to you - many of your posts are useful, especially to those who are new to the country. You have a good heart. I believe that, just like me, you are a fighter for justice, the problem being that there is no single definition and interpretation of justice. As it happens, justice is so polysemantic. I've met some wonderful people here, have made some friends, and have no intention of bearing any grudge against somebody. Nor do I want anybody to harbour a grudge against me. So?[/quote]Yeah, it would make a damn good title for a book and then...The film of the book..:idea:

Anna, get writing!!! :11033:

Bluebird
22-10-2009, 23:10
Wow, maybe I'm wasting my time teaching?

Bels, I offer a truce and an olive branch. You can be very annoying, that's true, but one would definitely have to hand it to you - many of your posts are useful, especially to those who are new to the country. You have a good heart. I believe that, just like me, you are a fighter for justice, the problem being that there is no single definition and interpretation of justice. As it happens, justice is so polysemantic. I've met some wonderful people here, have made some friends, and have no intention of bearing any grudge against somebody. Nor do I want anybody to harbour a grudge against me. So?Yeah, it would make a damn good title for a book and then...The film of the book..:idea:

Anna, get writing!!! :11033:

Bluebird
22-10-2009, 23:10
P.S. Just a thought...I'll be the editor....

Bels
22-10-2009, 23:29
Hmm! There never has been a grudge on my part. Just the debate and that's al it has ever been. Of course I could say protecting my professional integrity, but no harm has been done her. In fact the opposite.

You see I live in the wild west where I don't have any strong competitors here.They take me for what I have already achieved and my local reputation here,of course my professional linguistic wife from Moriz torroz university has helped me a lot in gaining this local reputation. Due to communicating and translating English for many years she is virtualy bi-linguakl. Sorry but she refuse to accept being bi-lingual. But she is.
And mainly I only want children and teenagers. I have refused many offers from schools and agents, as they can't offer me more than what I already have. Maybe that's why I am not afraid of giving a good argument because I don't need employers or whatever. I am legally resident here, legally entitled to have a classroom and we my wife and I are both registered entrepeneurs.

But I do care about expat teachers coming to this country and hopefully they do receive the proper advice for their benifit before they arrive. That's the kind of info I want them to have, before they get themselves into trouble here.

MickeyTong
22-10-2009, 23:30
Bels, I offer a truce and an olive branch.

No, Anna, don't be like that. Rip his nuts off!

Bels
22-10-2009, 23:33
No, Anna, don't be like that. Rip his nuts off!

HEY! I was beginning to lighten up there!

GaNozri
23-10-2009, 00:00
And mainly I only want children and teenagers.

Dude, you scare me!

Bels
23-10-2009, 14:22
Why don't you get back to your little box where you belong. In current Affairs. Or do you seriusly want to discuss in the teachers' folder?


Dude, you scare me!

Anna Lazutkina
23-10-2009, 14:36
No, Anna, don't be like that. Rip his nuts off!

Mickey, thanks. I will find my own way.

Anna Lazutkina
23-10-2009, 14:39
P.S. Just a thought...I'll be the editor....

Deal. What will you want in return? PM if you prefer.

rosieredwood
23-10-2009, 16:38
Simply amazing.

It would seem the ch@des should be working or doing something constructive.

is4fun
23-10-2009, 18:11
My upbringing prevents me from charging students 2000 rubles per academic hour. We keep prices low, but ensure quality. That's why we can't promise our teachers the Moon and accommodation in the Garden of Eden. English is not my native language, whereas, as far as I can get it, Bels claims to be a native. I doubt it. Still, you are free to believe that he can teach your son to be a kind and smart boy. He probably can. It's his ability to teach ENGLISH that is dubious. Again, it's a free world. You make your own choice.

Interesting input. I finally read through the whole tread. A long one indeed.

Which is your native language exactly? I never had come across the words: malapropism or polysemantic in Russia. Come to think of it, anywhere... LOL

Bels
23-10-2009, 18:56
Precisely. Time for a restructure of the teachers's folder with not new rules but certainly emphasised. Ideas coming up.

Bluebird
26-10-2009, 09:34
Interesting input. I finally read through the whole tread. A long one indeed.

Which is your native language exactly? I never had come across the words: malapropism or polysemantic in Russia. Come to think of it, anywhere... LOLHmmm, you have made an interesting observation.

malapropism means: (http://www.expat.ru/forum/A%20malapropism%20%28also%20called%20a%20Dogberryism,%20acyrologia,%20Morna-ism%22%29%20is%20the%20substitution%20of%20a%20word%20for%20a%20word%20with%20a%20similar%20sound,%20in%20which%20the%20resulting%20phrase%20makes%20no%20sense%20but%20often%20creates%20a%20comic%20effect.%20It%20is%20not%20the%20same%20as%20an%20eggcorn,%20which%20is%20a%20similar%20substitution%20in%20which%20the%20new%20phrase%20makes%20sense%20on%20some%20level.%20Occasionally,%20a%20phrase%20is%20substituted%20for%20the%20original,%20e.g.%20Stan%20Laurel%20said%20%22What%20a%20terrible%20cat%27s)

A malapropism (also called a Dogberryism, acyrologia, Morna-ism") is the substitution of a word for a word with a similar sound, in which the resulting phrase makes no sense but often creates a comic effect. It is not the same as an Eggcorn - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, which is a similar substitution in which the new phrase makes sense on some level. Occasionally, a phrase is substituted for the original, e.g. Stan Laurel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:StanLaurel.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/71/StanLaurel.jpg/220px-StanLaurel.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/7/71/StanLaurel.jpg/220px-StanLaurel.jpg said "What a terrible cat's

Shakespeare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malapropism#Shakespeare)often used malapopism's.

For example:

in A Midsummer Night's Dream:

* Bottom says he will "aggravate" his voice when he really means he will "moderate" it. (Act 1 Scene II)
* Bottom says "deflowered" when he means "devoured". (Act 5 Scene I)

The First Clown in Hamlet: crownerís quest ..." (i.e. coroner's inquest; Act 5, Scene I)

Moreover, it is quite interesting that you mention about 'not coming across it in Russia.' Here is something I've found though:

Examples in the Russian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malapropism#Malapropisms_by_real_people)

The word rynda for "Ship's bell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:Question_book-new.svg" class="image"><img alt="Question book-new.svg" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png"@@AMEPARAM@@en/thumb/9/99/Question_book-new.svg/50px-Question_book-new.svg.png". The English phrase "Ring the bell!" was heard by Russian seamen as "Ryndu bey!", i.e., "Hit the rynda", rynda being the word for the tsar's bodyguard. Accordingly, the phrase "to hit the rynda" was used to mean "to signal time with the ship's bell", and later the bell itself has become commonly known as ship's rynda".

And Polysemantic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polysemantic)means:

adjective
of words; having many meanings [syn: polysemous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/polysemous)]

IraM
26-10-2009, 11:02
Which is your native language exactly? I never had come across the words: malapropism or polysemantic in Russia. Come to think of it, anywhere... LOL

Both words are linguistic terms, Latin roots. The same meaning (thank you, Bluebird) in Russian (and all over the globe) as such terms are international. Nothing strange except you will never hear such words in everyday talks. So she is Russian who speaks linguist lingo as well (apart from other FLs).

is4fun
26-10-2009, 12:47
Both words are linguistic terms, Latin roots. The same meaning (thank you, Bluebird) in Russian (and all over the globe) as such terms are international. Nothing strange except you will never hear such words in everyday talks. So she is Russian who speaks linguist lingo as well (apart from other FLs).

ambiguity and miss-statement are utilized in the same context in Russian? Please explain... I am interested as I am a RSL... student.

tilston15381
29-10-2009, 19:09
sounds like an idiot!

Bluebird
31-10-2009, 18:35
sounds like an idiot!Who sounds like an idiot?

Bels
03-11-2009, 23:32
Who sounds like an idiot?

That's a very good question. In my opinion the poster hadn't read the read and is not taking anything on expat too seriously. So give up on that one as you probably won't hear from him again.

But I still love love this title. Frauds in our Midst. Who are the real frauds in our midst. I really do wonder :)

Bluebird
05-11-2009, 00:56
That's a very good question. In my opinion the poster hadn't read the read and is not taking anything on expat too seriously. So give up on that one as you probably won't hear from him again.

But I still love love this title. Frauds in our Midst. Who are the real frauds in our midst. I really do wonder :)That's a good question...And you make a good point about that other comment.

moscowheimer
05-11-2009, 08:40
I agree, the original message isn't slanderous or malicious, and so is welcome as an honest opinion. Sadly, we won't hear the teacher's side of the story, unless he posts here, which is probably unlikely.