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View Full Version : pinochet - time to pay



peyote
16-12-2004, 20:37
they might call him "president". he was just another military ruler, a dictator who led a coup d'etat against an elected president to later torture and kill by the thousands.

time to pay, b**tard!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4093067.stm

Penguin Snacks
16-12-2004, 21:46
However, in his defence, he did turn Chile into an economically prosperous country unlike its neighbours.

Still I wouldn't be able to sleep comfortably at night if I was him...

Pooty Poot
17-12-2004, 10:05
I like that 'disappearing' thing he had going. I'm thinking of starting to use that here.

Ned Kelly
17-12-2004, 10:24
you seem to have had your head up your pooty-poot for the last month or so mr prez.

Pooty Poot
17-12-2004, 10:34
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
you seem to have had your head up your pooty-poot for the last month or so mr prez.

What, you mean with the Ukrainian stuff ? C'mon, that poison was a pretty good idea, don't ya think ?

Ned Kelly
17-12-2004, 10:36
nothing worse than a russian president trying to take credit for a ukrainian oligarch's cunning poisoning of his stooge's opponent!

Pooty Poot
17-12-2004, 10:38
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
nothing worse than a russian president trying to take credit for a ukrainian oligarch's cunning poisoning of his stooge's opponent!

C'mon, who's idea you think it was ? I didn't have those 'election advisors' down there for nothing.

Ned Kelly
17-12-2004, 10:41
if you'd used the poison on those morons you'd probably have been successful.

Pooty Poot
17-12-2004, 10:44
Any more 'head up my ass' remarks, and you may find yourself with a Yushenko mug, and I don't mean a coffee cup.

Ned Kelly
17-12-2004, 10:49
that's the thing, you pretend to be a touchy-feely schroederite european social democrat and promise simply not to renew western critics' visas - but when push comes to shove its: !

Pooty Poot
17-12-2004, 10:51
But that's my whole schtick, Kelly, pay lip service to the West to keep the moolah rollin' in while crackin' down on anything that encroaches on my turf. I thought that was clear by now !

Get widda program !

Ned Kelly
17-12-2004, 10:55
you give me a position in the presidential administration with a nice little west siberian oil field as a retirement nest egg and i'll be happy to sign on!

Pooty Poot
17-12-2004, 11:01
See ? Ain't too hard being two-faced ! Pay's good.

peyote
17-12-2004, 13:50
i'm gonna call the general to help me disappear these thread hijackers...
:mad:

capone
17-12-2004, 20:37
For punishment they should force him to read one of Isabel Allende's silly novels.

peyote
20-12-2004, 13:35
Originally posted by Penguin Snacks
However, in his defence, he did turn Chile into an economically prosperous country unlike its neighbours.

Still I wouldn't be able to sleep comfortably at night if I was him... would you give the same defense to all right wing military regimes in latin america who killed and disappeared by the thousands? argentina was also "prosperous" under military rule. how about hitler? he made germany a power to deal with too. is it ok when right wing regimes violate human rights just because they're not communists? i'm sure that for some it is. when in doubt just ask kissinger.

peyote
20-12-2004, 13:38
Originally posted by capone
For punishment they should force him to read one of Isabel Allende's silly novels. i'm sure he prefers stephen king.

tbill
20-12-2004, 22:07
Ok, I'll play devil's advocate. How many people has Castro made disappear? Can we really say that Allende would not have degenerated into a Castro type dictatorship? Allende admired Castro and invited to visit Chile. Allende had embarked on a program of nationalisation but had won the presidency with less than 40% of the vote. His followers employed violence.

I guess I am biased in that I know I would have a lot more trouble living in a leftist dictatorship. I can live without preachy students. I would have a hard time working for the 'good' of the people.

Pinochet has blood on his hands but he put himself in the position where he is vulnerable to arrest when he relinquished power. How many European countries does Castro visit without fear of prosecution?

Penguin Snacks
21-12-2004, 00:56
Peyote,

I think you have to judge things in context and in a South American context you can't fault what Chile has achieved under Pinochet. There is a growing middle class and bustling economy, whereas if you look at the legacy of the other military dictators (Argentina, Paraguay etc...) they are still a mess. The middle classes are vanishing. The poor are getting poorer and wealth is only in a few hands. So you have to concede Pinochet achieved something.

I am not sure if it is relevant if he was right wing or left wing. Most dictators aren't benign. But Pinochet for all his faults was a very capable person.

Though I know from first hand living under Pinochet was difficult for many ordinary Chileans. You could get picked up off the street for no reason and detained etc... Pretty scary stuff.

PS

capone
21-12-2004, 23:00
Pinochet is one of those bellwether figures. If you think what he did is forgivable because Chile now has growth, stability, a middle cl**** a pension system that is a model for all the world, and the lowest level of government corruption outside northern Europe, there's a 99% chance that you're a conservative. If you say that he shattered one of South America's oldest democracies and destroyed families so that a ruling class of ethnically European hereditary rulers wouldn't have to relinquish their land holdings to the poor and desperate, there's a 99% chance that you're a social democrat.

I am not a religious man, but I believe in karma for what it's worth. I can't embrace Pinochet without implying that liberal, enlightenment concepts such as free speech and freedom of the press are somehow less relevant to society than economic growth. Can anyone make such a claim here and now, where we are losing more of these freedoms every day, and many of our dearest friends lack the means or have too much dignity to simply take the next plane out?

Penguin Snacks
22-12-2004, 22:03
Capone

I never said I forgave him but I believe he is more than just your typical run of the mill Latin American dictator. Freedom of speech etc... are nice concepts to throw around but if you have no economic prospects then they aren't very meaningful. I am sure that the life of your poor Chilean didn't change much under Pinochet but at least they could find work and feed their families. Isn't this important as well? Plus economic stability allowed for peaceful social change which is what happened in Chile.

Halyavshik
23-12-2004, 08:29
Originally posted by Penguin Snacks
Freedom of speech etc... are nice concepts to throw around but if you have no economic prospects then they aren't very meaningful.

Nice sentiments. In other words, if you're poor, shut-up. C'mon ! Freedom of speech is only worth it if you have prospects ? "I don't have any prospects, so, um, subjugate me !" What about large economic downswings ? Can you temporarily suspend free speech if things just *look* really gloomy ahead ?

J.D.
23-12-2004, 09:08
Originally posted by Halyavshik
Can you temporarily suspend free speech if things just *look* really gloomy ahead ?

Hmmm . . . I think that's a chicken or egg question. Do they, (that would be the infamous they), suspend freedom of speech when things look gloomy or do things start to look gloomy when they suspend freedom of speech?

tbill
23-12-2004, 10:20
Originally posted by Halyavshik
Nice sentiments. In other words, if you're poor, shut-up. C'mon ! Freedom of speech is only worth it if you have prospects ? "I don't have any prospects, so, um, subjugate me !" What about large economic downswings ? Can you temporarily suspend free speech if things just *look* really gloomy ahead ?

This has been a calm debate about a touchy subject, don't derail it with snarkiness. Mr Snarky.

peyote
23-12-2004, 13:36
Originally posted by Penguin Snacks
You could get picked up off the street for no reason and detained etc...sounds familiar to me ;)

tbill,
castro never disappeared anyone. whenever he sent dissidents to prison, like the 70 dissidents he sent earlier this year, he did it openly, it was in the news, and whenever he killed dissidents everyone knew too. not to confused whether this means he's better nor worse than pinochet, that's probably an useless controversy. just that repression in cuba works in a very different way.

if you are to "defend" castro that makes you literally the devil's advocate :D

i actually wanted to make a point about the double standards applied to human rights violators from the right and the left...

when i was in cuba i was more concerned with having economic freedom to put food on the table, rather than speaking my mind, which i always did anyway, that's why i'm here. you wouldn't think it was the weather, right? nor the chicks... well, maybe :D

if you're struggling to survive economically you probably don't care whether you can speak your mind or not. this is something you can see in cuba today. i think economic freedom leads to freedom of thought. you have to be economically independent from the government first, then you would care about criticising. as marx said, i love quoting the bastard since they shoved him up my er, ears ;) first goes food on the table, clothes and a shelter, then you can philosophise all you want...

capone
23-12-2004, 17:10
Very true. People that are worried about rent payments and putting food on the table first. I don't really question Pinochet's economic policies - I think that he would have been content to continue his career as head of the armed forces if Allende hadn't essentially destroyed the economy. Unlike many people, I don't get all teary-eyed for egalitarian principles if they are merely used as an excuse for a power grab. That's why many respect Pinochet for being a Cincinnatus.

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Penguin Snacks
23-12-2004, 21:32
I always thought Pinochet in many ways was quite restrained. Despite all his power etc.. he never named streets after himself or erected statues of himself everywhere. His relatives didn't run half the economy and the army wasn't corrupt. This is pretty rare in South America.

It's hard to know how to judge him because on the one hand his regime killed a lot of people but on the other he did a lot to help develop his country afterwards. He is a bit like the Roman dictator Capone mentioned.

Bluebird
16-01-2005, 21:22
Originally posted by peyote
i'm gonna call the general to help me disappear these thread hijackers...
:mad:

Yeah, I think they should all be sent to Guantanamo Bay...In Soviet times, it would've been a nice cozy gulag, in the wasts of Siberia....:)

Bluebird
16-01-2005, 21:32
Originally posted by Penguin Snacks
I always thought Pinochet in many ways was quite restrained. Despite all his power etc.. he never named streets after himself or erected statues of himself everywhere. His relatives didn't run half the economy and the army wasn't corrupt. This is pretty rare in South America.

It's hard to know how to judge him because on the one hand his regime killed a lot of people but on the other he did a lot to help develop his country afterwards. He is a bit like the Roman dictator Capone mentioned.

If you thought that Piniochet was quite restrained...then check this out, from: www.wikipedia.com

General Augusto Jos Ramn Pinochet Ugarte1 (born November 25, 1915) was head of the military government that ruled Chile from 1973 to 1990. He came to power in a violent coup that deposed Salvador Allende, the first Socialist to be elected president of Chile. The coup ended a period of strained relations between the United Stateswhich had actively sought Allende's removaland the South American country. (See also 1970 Chilean presidential election; Chilean coup of 1973; List of Presidents of Chile.)

On September 11, 1973, the military led by Pinochet stormed the presidential palace and seized power from president Allende, who was found dead soon after. A junta headed by Pinochet was established, which immediately suspended the constitution, dissolved Congress, imposed strict censorship, and banned all political parties. In addition, it embarked on a campaign of terror against leftist elements in the country. As a result, approximately 3,000 Chileans were executed or disappeared, more than 27,0002 were imprisoned or tortured, and many were exiled and received abroad as political refugees.

However

Supporters of Pinochet credit him with staving off what they saw as a beginning of communism, and for implementing neoliberal market policies that laid the groundwork for rapid economic growth that continued into the '90s. His opponents charge him with destroying Chile's democracy, killing and torturing thousands of opponents, catering exclusively to private interests, and adopting economic policies that favored the wealthy and hurt the middle- and low-income sectors in Chile.

There's always the for's and against's - the pluses and minuses...In this case...A few thousand people - just gone...Vanished, tortured to death...Gone...