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MDW
03-12-2004, 11:41
I am serious. That's some kinda mystery to me. I understand when a man invites a girl out, but when she wants to take him out, he still has to pay. She never even suggests to tip in. Not even a small share, tips for Christ's sake!

The more the "better". When he lives with her, she expects him to pay rent, for clothes, for food, for trips, for jewelry.

Don't they understand that it's not even about the money. It's about sharing whatever you can (it does not have to be 50%, it can be 10%, 5%, whatever) and being partners. Don't they understand that when a man always pays for a woman, he evenually starts treating her like an accesory? A thing? There are no two-way commitments, obligations, equal rights.

Do I miss something?

kniga
03-12-2004, 11:44
MDW,

Well, you see, you being an alien from K-PAX and all, there is no way you are going to be able to understand that Russian culture is different from, say, American culture.

plastique
03-12-2004, 11:47
All I hear is men complaining about how awful we American gals are. How it is so much better here without the feminists and opinionated beeyotches.
I make my man happy that's all i care about.

but even I am not touching that one as i am sure pleanty of gals will ride the horses on in here.

Polia Ivanova
03-12-2004, 11:49
Do you have a permanent girlfriend and do you expect her to share the check when you are together?


Bugger, you made me feel ashamed. About ten days ago when I was in Moscow I had a meal with one of Expat members (male) and I didn't pay. I also didn't tip a Moscow dentist - was it right?

Surok
03-12-2004, 11:50
You tip dentists here??!

MDW
03-12-2004, 11:51
There are many Russian girls who pay or share, but most of them don't. So, I don't think it's really THE Russian culture.

Polia Ivanova
03-12-2004, 11:52
Originally posted by Surok
You tip dentists here??!

No here (in Manchester) we don't but I wasn't quite sure about Moscow and desided to take a risk of non-tipping

MDW
03-12-2004, 11:57
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
Do you have a permanent girlfriend and do you expect her to share the check when you are together?



I am talking about ALWAYS paying 100% for EVERYTHING for a girlfriend and having no other option... Is it normal?

Polia Ivanova
03-12-2004, 11:58
Originally posted by MDW
I am talking about ALWAYS paying 100% for EVERYTHING for a girlfriend and having no other option... Is it normal?

So why do you invite other girls for a meal?

MDW
03-12-2004, 12:00
it's generalization! from prev. experiences.

lalique
03-12-2004, 12:05
Originally posted by MDW
There are many Russian girls who pay or share, but most of them don't. So, I don't think it's really THE Russian culture.

O yea! You know russian culture and language very well!!!:eek:

Polia Ivanova
03-12-2004, 12:06
Originally posted by MDW
it's generalization! from prev. experiences.

I could tell you about a few generalisations about English man based on my divorce experience but I skip.

Sorry, it just makes me sad when a man cannot appreciate a decent woman and start looking for more getting this generalisation experience.

Moscow is full of hungry girls I bet...

Sunstorm
03-12-2004, 12:07
I am more curious about the following :

What would you think about a guy who invites a girl out for a coffee and then hesitates to pay until the girl asks him how much her coffee was, then she puts her coffee money + a tip, then he puts his money and grabs the girl's tip... ?

corp_fin
03-12-2004, 12:09
This is the way it is, man. When I don't have any cash on me and need to pay, my wife hands over her wallet so I can make the payment - she does not even think of handing over the money herself when I am present. Don't ask me why.

Idiot Amin
03-12-2004, 12:09
Originally posted by Sunstorm
I am more curious about the following :

What would you think about a guy who invites a girl out for a coffee and then hesitates to pay until the girl asks him how much her coffee was, then she puts her coffee money + a tip, then he puts his money and grabs the girl's tip... ?

Where have you seen this? Don't tell me you actually went out with MDW!:D

kniga
03-12-2004, 12:10
Sunstorm,

You've answered your own question: "I want to think the world is fair..."

kak
03-12-2004, 12:10
Originally posted by MDW
I am talking about ALWAYS paying 100% for EVERYTHING for a girlfriend and having no other option... Is it normal?

I guess you just choose the wrong ones ! :p

Polia Ivanova
03-12-2004, 12:12
It is not a joke – one of my husband’s arguments to reduce the settlement amount was “Do you know how many drinks I bought you during our 5 years long marriage”

MDW
03-12-2004, 12:12
I am talking bigger scale now. Coffee times are over. Been paid in full by the man.

She wants to go to Seychelles. He says ok. The trip will cost such and such. But he say your share (10%-20%) would be helpful cuz it's a lot of money for 1 week vacation.

She flips out.

They are not engaged, or spouses, they're just dates.

Is it normal?

sfjohns67
03-12-2004, 12:14
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
It is not a joke – one of my husband’s arguments to reduce the settlement amount was “Do you know how many drinks I bought you during our 5 years long marriage” So why did you need a settlement from him in the first place? Unless you have kids, you squeezing money out of the guy is 100% leech action in my book. The only excuse is if you were trying to recover personal funds you possessed prior to marrying him, but only in the EXACT amount you had at the start of the marriage (i.e. what they do with pre-nup agreements).

corp_fin
03-12-2004, 12:15
Originally posted by MDW
I am talking bigger scale now. Coffee times are over. Been paid in full by the man.

She wants to go to Seychelles. He says ok. The trip will cost such and such. But he say your share (10%-20%) would be helpful cuz it's a lot of money for 1 week vacation.

She flips out.

They are not engaged, or spouses, they're just dates.

Is it normal?

Absolutely normal. It's up to you whether to tolerate it or to say "no way" in a nice way. See if she stays with you.

plastique
03-12-2004, 12:15
Back Home gramma's generation let the man pay for everything cuz she didn't work and took care of the home and kids. when dating it was expected. Mom's generation broke the work door open and we could start to do for ourselves. My generation is hoping to be on an even playing field with the boys, and it is nice on a date when he pays or buys the drinks at the bar, but we'll pitch in as well.
I think here the work place is still in my mom's generation. Women are breaking though but unless she is Luzhkov's wife has little money which goes toward clothes. THe man seems expected to pay because that is chivalrous. Here there is still a shred of chivalry (except in the metro...that is a warzone where it is every man woman and child for themselves).
Personally I am broke as a joke right now and my guy pays for pretty much everything and I am really ashamed of that. I was raised to be self sufficient and it kills me to rely on another person, but he sees it as we are in this together and there will be good times and bad times to share in.

Polia Ivanova
03-12-2004, 12:16
Originally posted by MDW
I am talking bigger scale now. Coffee times are over. Been paid in full by the man.

She wants to go to Seychelles. He says ok. The trip will cost such and such. But he say your share (10%-20%) would be helpful cuz it's a lot of money for 1 week vacation.

She flips out.

They are not engaged, or spouses, they're just dates.

Is it normal?

my problem was always lonely holidays.

Why man pick up the bitchy ones?

Polia Ivanova
03-12-2004, 12:18
Originally posted by sfjohns67
So why did you need a settlement from him in the first place? Unless you have kids, you squeezing money out of the guy is 100% leech action in my book. The only excuse is if you were trying to recover personal funds you possessed prior to marrying him, but only in the EXACT amount you had at the start of the marriage (i.e. what they do with pre-nup agreements).

chap you are full of stereotypes.

I was the high earner, it is just nice when you husband pays for your drink while I was paying for meals.

I am an accountant for God's sake

MDW
03-12-2004, 12:24
Originally posted by plastique
...unless she is Luzhkov's wife...

she makes enuff. i wld understand if she wasnt working or was making a little.

i still don't understand...

sfjohns67
03-12-2004, 12:26
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
chap you are full of stereotypes.

I was the high earner, it is just nice when you husband pays for your drink while I was paying for meals.

I am an accountant for God's sake And you are full of unclear communication - try making your point clearly. You originally said he wished to "reduce the settlement amount," implying that it was he paying you a settlement (why would he want to reduce it if it were YOU paying HIM?).

I was married to the higher earner the last 6 years of my marriage, so get off your high horse - I had (and still don't) no problem paying for stuff when we were in public. It all went into the same bank account and got withdrawn with the same ATM card anyway.

I am a subcontract manager for Zog's sake.

kak
03-12-2004, 12:26
MDW, be aware...;)
http://www.teddwebb.com/tickle_me/misc/photo_2503.jpg

Polia Ivanova
03-12-2004, 12:33
Originally posted by sfjohns67
And you are full of unclear communication - try making your point clearly. You originally said he wished to "reduce the settlement amount," implying that it was he paying you a settlement (why would he want to reduce it if it were YOU paying HIM?).

I was married to the higher earner the last 6 years of my marriage, so get off your high horse - I had (and still don't) no problem paying for stuff when we were in public. It all went into the same bank account and got withdrawn with the same ATM card anyway.

I am a subcontract manager for Zog's sake.

you started it implying me skimming somebody

Guys, feed the hungry Russian girls and don't complain about it.

sfjohns67
03-12-2004, 12:37
Kiss kiss, Polia, no autopsy = no foul.

BTW, I forgot to include that it was my PREVIOUS marriage wherein my wife was the high earner. Three times my salary, to be exact.

Sadie
03-12-2004, 12:45
not that this hasn't been discussed 100-200 times here

MDW
03-12-2004, 12:47
Originally posted by Sadie
not that this hasn't been discussed 100-200 times here

I am a newcomer here. Rookie...

Shaun
03-12-2004, 12:49
had this conversation many a time before, i think it's even more unusual in britain for the guy to always pay than in the states.

like its been said, if you ask someone out on a date, then fair enough, you pay. if you earn $10000 a month and they earn $350, fair enough, you pay.

but if youre just friends, or if youre dating for a while, and the girl earns at least as much, if not more than you - (which with my salary is not too difficult) it seems really bizarre - definitely promotes the 'sponsor' idea of the woman as an accessory.

it usually doesnt seem to be about inability to pay, nor about stinginess, more about the feeling that it is 'right' and 'chivalrous' for the man to pay... get out of the goddam 19th century, i say...

MDW
03-12-2004, 12:51
whats that SPONSOR thing exactly in Russia?

Sadie
03-12-2004, 12:52
Originally posted by MDW
I am a newcomer here. Rookie...
yeah, right, time flies by so fast :p

Braders
03-12-2004, 12:52
I think that the women in any relationship should sometimes offer to pay the bill, even in the stongest relationships a tiny seed of doubt will be planted if the guy continually pays for everything.

In Russia this seed is slightly bigger because Russian women were stereotyped many moons ago as gold-diggers and passport hunters.

My Wife only ever pays for a meal in a restaurant when we're on holiday, weird :p

Ghost
03-12-2004, 13:08
Agree with SFJ completely. All comes from the same damned account, so who gives a damn?

As for settlements and divorce, etc. EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A PRENUP. EVERY LAST ONE OF YA.

If the woman makes more money than the man, then SHE should have a prenup. Case closed.

I've already explained this to the girl I'm dating, and she's fine with it. The intent is not to "expect" divorce, but to protect yourself should it ever occur.

kniga
03-12-2004, 13:14
Plastique,

"...but he sees it as we are in this together and there will be good times and bad times to share in."

That's what a marriage is...

Vanilla
03-12-2004, 13:29
Originally posted by MDW
I am serious. That's some kinda mystery to me. I understand when a man invites a girl out, but when she wants to take him out, he still has to pay. She never even suggests to tip in. Not even a small share, tips for Christ's sake!

The more the "better". When he lives with her, she expects him to pay rent, for clothes, for food, for trips, for jewelry.

Don't they understand that it's not even about the money. It's about sharing whatever you can (it does not have to be 50%, it can be 10%, 5%, whatever) and being partners. Don't they understand that when a man always pays for a woman, he evenually starts treating her like an accesory? A thing? There are no two-way commitments, obligations, equal rights.

Do I miss something?

Again and again YOU MEET WRONG PEOPLE and jump to the wrong conclusions. If she doesn’t care about you – there really isn’t a single reason to make you happy with her attention\ efforts or whatever, believe me. And it is not only about Russian girls, it is everywhere.

pengwn9
03-12-2004, 13:34
Originally posted by Ghost
Agree with SFJ completely. All comes from the same damned account, so who gives a damn?

As for settlements and divorce, etc. EVERY MAN SHOULD HAVE A PRENUP. EVERY LAST ONE OF YA.

Whaaat?!! My man filed for frigging bankrupcy right after we got married. I had nothin' and he had nothin'. Except lots of bills.

So let's say we get divorced 20 years later. I spent 20 years doing housework, child care, cooking, gardening, nursing, chauffering--you'd better bet he owes me about a zillion dollars for all that unpaid labor, even though when I married him we both came into the marraige with nothing. I think prenuptial agreements pre-say "I don't trust you now or forever". Is this what marriage is supposed to be about? Sh*t happens. You roll with the punches.

Pussy Cat
03-12-2004, 13:34
Originally posted by Vanilla
Again and again YOU MEET WRONG PEOPLE and jump to the wrong conclusions. If she doesn’t care about you – there really isn’t a single reason to make you happy with her attention\ efforts or whatever, believe me. And it is not only about Russian girls, it is everywhere.

I agree with Vanilka;)
It feels you've met wrong girls:agree: :p

plastique
03-12-2004, 13:35
Originally posted by kniga
Plastique,

"...but he sees it as we are in this together and there will be good times and bad times to share in."

That's what a marriage is...

ahhh to be blissfully wed...someday, someday.....

boscoe
03-12-2004, 13:43
Originally posted by sfjohns67
So why did you need a settlement from him in the first place? Unless you have kids, you squeezing money out of the guy is 100% leech action in my book. The only excuse is if you were trying to recover personal funds you possessed prior to marrying him, but only in the EXACT amount you had at the start of the marriage (i.e. what they do with pre-nup agreements).

I have a Friend who married a guy about 8 years ago – he was in a good job and she was finishing her PHD, about 3 months after she got her PHD and had found a good job (albeit at a ‘starting’ level) his company moved him to the states, she had to give up her job to go with him, but at the time they decided this was best for them both so she did. She had a real problem finding a job in the states and was basically unemployed for 18months when she did find a job she was only there for 6 months before they moved again. This moving every one to two years has been going on ever since.

He has now left her… she has been left with nothing but a broken work record and no job and has been told that as it has been 8 years since she did her PHD and she has not been working constantly in a related field she is now so out of date her PHD is just about useless.

He on the other hand has (due to the constant moving) managed to clime the ladder within the company to a high level…

Why am I telling you this? Well because it show a situation where in my opinion she is quite entitled to some of what he gets and for some time in the future!

Sadie
03-12-2004, 13:46
i do pre-nups for ppl, including expats quite often. i know exactly well that women's attitude towards it is 100% sceptical here and abroad. tell me these fairy tails women sign them coz they fall in love head over hills - nothing close. i would call it the lack of foresight or despair.
penguin - aree 100% - a woman takes huge risks.
call me cynical - i would say deprived of illusions - i work with these ppl during divorcement etc.

kniga
03-12-2004, 13:52
Plastique,

Every girl's dream, many women's nightmare. Long, successful marriages also belong to your grandmother's generation in the main. Today's more open society, more equality for women (a good thing in the main, especially in the area of equal pay for equal work) and the accelerating pace of change especially in America have helped turn marriage from a "for better or worse" proposition to "until I get tired of you." Good luck and good hunting...

Sadie
03-12-2004, 13:52
heels or hills? :D heels, da?

kniga
03-12-2004, 14:18
Sadichka,

"Heels" is correct. But then you are like a cop who works with the seedy, underbelly of society and you see only the failure in marriages. There are people who are happily married and stay married without any prenuptial agreement. It's an old fashioned idea called "commitment."

pengwn9
03-12-2004, 14:26
Originally posted by plastique
ahhh to be blissfully wed...someday, someday.....

The "blissfully" part---it comes and it goes. Sticking to it during the times that "blissfully" is on the wane, that's when you know what kind of glue is holding the marraige together. Believe me, blissfully is temporary and fleeting. Reality is unpaid bills, screaming kids, broke-down cars, day care hassles, unwanted in-laws.

If you're not ready for that kind of "bliss", don't get married. And if you need some kind of contractual financial prenuptial agreement, you need a business partner, not a marraige partner for life.

Sadie
03-12-2004, 14:29
where did i argue that Bookie?
yes, unfortunately ppl don't come to court lawyers to share their happiness, but that doesnt make me blind, i hopefully don't have this so called "professional deformation" ;):p

I comment why ppl sign pre-nups - as i know, they don't bother hiding behind high-flown complicated explanations in front of their lawyer - simple and cynical (in my view)

marriage contracts on the threshold of divorce - another story

but I do have horrifying examples of these carefully thought-out marriages and i agree with you - ppl most times take it as "until I get tired of you" whether the others want to admit it or not

Polia Ivanova
03-12-2004, 14:32
I read an article in The Times recently about new dating phenomenon in the UK – LATing – Living Apart Together. Both have houses and visit each other regularly, and this is more or less the permanent situation which nobody wants to change.
The main reasons for it is the fear of building legal relationship arising from marriage or even cohabiting.
Woman equality is a great thing but unfortunately men cannot give birth to children yet, which means it will never be equal.

MDW
03-12-2004, 14:33
Originally posted by Shaun
had this conversation many a time before, i think it's even more unusual in britain for the guy to always pay than in the states.

like its been said, if you ask someone out on a date, then fair enough, you pay. if you earn $10000 a month and they earn $350, fair enough, you pay.

but if youre just friends, or if youre dating for a while, and the girl earns at least as much, if not more than you - (which with my salary is not too difficult) it seems really bizarre - definitely promotes the 'sponsor' idea of the woman as an accessory.

it usually doesnt seem to be about inability to pay, nor about stinginess, more about the feeling that it is 'right' and 'chivalrous' for the man to pay... get out of the goddam 19th century, i say...

Shaun, lets say he makes 2,5-3 times more than she does. Not that much of a difference. Besides, he pays rent and pays all the bills + pays off credits. She knows it.

What's wrong with asking to help with 10% of the expences for something she wanted.

plastique
03-12-2004, 14:34
Originally posted by pengwn9
The "blissfully" part---it comes and it goes. Sticking to it during the times that "blissfully" is on the wane, that's when you know what kind of glue is holding the marraige together. Believe me, blissfully is temporary and fleeting. Reality is unpaid bills, screaming kids, broke-down cars, day care hassles, unwanted in-laws.

If you're not ready for that kind of "bliss", don't get married. And if you need some kind of contractual financial prenuptial agreement, you need a business partner, not a marraige partner for life.

Couldn't agree with you more girl!!!

DPG
03-12-2004, 14:35
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
but unfortunately men cannot give birth to children yet

Thank f*** for that!

But come on, women really do complain a lot about this childbirth stuff - if the average man were to give birth, we would be talking about something like: give birth, a couple of paracetamol and back to the office within the hour...:p

Lol!

allice
03-12-2004, 16:00
What's the difference between a willy and a prick?

A willy is fun, sexy and satisfying... A prick is the guy who owns it.

kniga
03-12-2004, 16:01
Moderator!! Moderator!!!

J.D.
03-12-2004, 16:03
Women only have to give birth.
Men have to listen to it



forever!

DPG
03-12-2004, 16:04
Kniga:

I know - should be moderated for utter slander and inaccuaracy!!

A prick is what you get when you stick a needle in your arm...

Moderator!!;-)


<please use stronger languaage on an open forum...mod>

J.D.
03-12-2004, 16:06
I thought a prick was what you get when you don't offer to at least go dutch.

Shatneresque
03-12-2004, 16:06
Originally posted by Polia Ivanova
I read an article in The Times recently about new dating phenomenon in the UK – LATing – Living Apart Together. Both have houses and visit each other regularly, and this is more or less the permanent situation which nobody wants to change.
The main reasons for it is the fear of building legal relationship arising from marriage or even cohabiting.

Got news for you: 35--40 years ago, this was called "going steady"....

(Think Don Hollinger and Ann Marie on "That Girl"!)

allice
03-12-2004, 16:13
Originally posted by DPG
Kniga:

I know - should be moderated for utter slander and inaccuaracy!!

A prick is what you get when you stick a needle in your arm...

Moderator!!;-)


<please use stronger languaage on an open forum...mod>

he he :D

DPG
03-12-2004, 16:14
Boscoe - You edited my post - I'll give you stronger language - check your PM!!:D

[Ooooppppsss, you can't - I've just accidently, inadvertently, purely not on purpose disabled your login!!]:p

Shatneresque
03-12-2004, 16:14
How come it's okay to prick your finger....

(You finish the rest!) :D

allice
03-12-2004, 16:20
FRIDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

polly
03-12-2004, 16:22
Originally posted by Vanilla
Again and again YOU MEET WRONG PEOPLE and jump to the wrong conclusions. If she doesn’t care about you – there really isn’t a single reason to make you happy with her attention\ efforts or whatever, believe me. And it is not only about Russian girls, it is everywhere.

in the US, we call them 'dinner whores.' go on dates to tease 'em up and get a free meal, then go home and without putting out. i guess the expat guys here should at least be thankful that they get "dessert." ahem.

polly
03-12-2004, 16:23
Originally posted by pengwn9
The "blissfully" part---it comes and it goes. Sticking to it during the times that "blissfully" is on the wane, that's when you know what kind of glue is holding the marraige together. Believe me, blissfully is temporary and fleeting. Reality is unpaid bills, screaming kids, broke-down cars, day care hassles, unwanted in-laws.

If you're not ready for that kind of "bliss", don't get married. And if you need some kind of contractual financial prenuptial agreement, you need a business partner, not a marraige partner for life.

yeah and the bliss of "stop poking me!" "Stop staring at me!" etc etc

J.D.
03-12-2004, 16:24
Hey polly what's wrong with a guy trying to improve himself,


and upping his status to gigalo?

polly
03-12-2004, 16:27
Originally posted by J.D.
Hey polly what's wrong with a guy trying to improve himself,


and upping his status to gigalo?

what the hell are you talking about?

what did i say that in any way said anything negative about a guy trying to improve himself?

what has your post got to do with the price of rice?

what planet are you on, JD?

J.D.
03-12-2004, 16:28
???Well . . .
I understood the last part

where you said "Kick me"

Sidney Bliss
03-12-2004, 16:31
Originally posted by allice
FRIDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

And what's put you in such a good mood today?! :D

allice
03-12-2004, 16:45
Originally posted by Sidney Bliss
And what's put you in such a good mood today?! :D

www.sausage.ie

allice
03-12-2004, 16:46
:D

360KiloStripedKitty
03-12-2004, 16:57
Originally posted by Sadie
heels or hills? :D heels, da?

heels - it's editing time :p You wear fifteen centimetre heels to climb fifteen metre hills - got it now :) :p ?

360KiloStripedKitty
03-12-2004, 17:00
Originally posted by allice
What's the difference between a willy and a prick?

A willy is fun, sexy and satisfying... A prick is the guy who owns it.

And what did I call you yesterday? A precious gem or some such thing? Tell me that the above post is but a hallucination :p :D :p

360KiloStripedKitty
03-12-2004, 17:01
Originally posted by Shatneresque
How come it's okay to prick your finger....

(You finish the rest!) :D

By posting here, we are doing the mental equivalent of the inverse :p

Shatneresque
03-12-2004, 17:04
Eloquent!

Filimon
03-12-2004, 19:09
Originally posted by DPG
Thank f*** for that!

But come on, women really do complain a lot about this childbirth stuff - if the average man were to give birth, we would be talking about something like: give birth, a couple of paracetamol and back to the office within the hour...:p

Lol!

Aaah, the unfettered wisdom of "Men Behaving Badly"! :)

bagehot
03-12-2004, 20:27
Originally posted by kniga
MDW,

Well, you see, you being an alien from K-PAX and all, there is no way you are going to be able to understand that Russian culture is different from, say, American culture.

I never buy stuff for girls - that's humilliating. Once I offered to buy a woman a drink and she ordered one that was 230. I almost hit her.

However, I always pay in cities outside Moscow. The bill ends up being less than 300 r and the girls are impressed when you cover the tab.

kniga
03-12-2004, 21:03
bagehot,

Wow, last of the big spenders from the East!

am4rw
03-12-2004, 23:07
Consider all the dates you pay for as "window shopping". After you find the right girl - you know, f*** you blind, makes 10 times what you do, etc. - then you can marry her, quit working, and have her support you. The Return on Investment will make the whole process worthwhile. :D

Ghost
04-12-2004, 04:58
Originally posted by boscoe
Why am I telling you this? Well because it show a situation where in my opinion she is quite entitled to some of what he gets and for some time in the future!

That's a horrible story, of course. But for every one of these types of stories, I could tell you a story where a guy I know has been "taken to the cleaners" by his ex-wife for half of his worth. I know some successful businessmen who now have to live with their parents or in some shabby apartment because their ex-wife ruthlessly takes half of all they earn (and ever will earn until they get married again).

A guy who used to work for me in the states had me sign a letter stating what his salary was, and how often he got raises, bonuses, etc. Why? Because the court would increase her payments whenever his salary increased.

Again, to quote Chris Rock - "If you make 20 million dollars a year, and your wife wants 10, big deal. You aint starvin'.

But if you make 30 thousand... and your wife wants 15...."

Me? I'd prefer to protect myself.

DPG
04-12-2004, 13:36
Shatner - sorry that it looks like you're having an odd conversation with yourself, but I have just deleted that other user because he used a racist remark in one of his posts, posted things unsuitable for expat cafe and is someone who because of their idiocy and poor manners was banned from the forums last week.

Cheers

DPG

EDIT - have actually deleted the replies too...

Shatneresque
04-12-2004, 13:43
Gotcha! Thx!

If this is the case...go ahead and delete mine too, pls!

DPG
04-12-2004, 13:45
>>EDIT - have actually deleted the replies too...<<

>>If this is the case...go ahead and delete mine too, pls!<<

Synchronicity!!:)

koba65
04-12-2004, 19:20
Originally posted by MDW
I am serious. That's some kinda mystery to me. I understand when a man invites a girl out, but when she wants to take him out, he still has to pay. She never even suggests to tip in. Not even a small share, tips for Christ's sake!

The more the "better". When he lives with her, she expects him to pay rent, for clothes, for food, for trips, for jewelry.

Don't they understand that it's not even about the money. It's about sharing whatever you can (it does not have to be 50%, it can be 10%, 5%, whatever) and being partners. Don't they understand that when a man always pays for a woman, he evenually starts treating her like an accesory? A thing? There are no two-way commitments, obligations, equal rights.

Do I miss something?

Color me old fashioned, but where I come from the guy always pays. I'd feel "ungentlemanly" if I let a woman pickup the tab or a portion of the tab. I'll even pick the tab up for the women in my office when we go to lunch - why not? They make considerably less than I do and I'm making more money just because I'm over here. I don't expect anything in return. And I wouldn't start treating any woman I am dating as an "accessory" just because I'm paying for dinner, etc.. If you're starting to think about the relationship in the terms of money spent, etc., then perhaps you're in a wrong relationship. Search around, there are plenty of nice women here in Moscow that won't ask you for trips, jewelry, etc.

And keep in mind that a lot of the Russian girls who date foreigners here are used to being lied to about commitment and I'm sure they think, "he's probably lying to me, using me, or whatever, and I should try to get something in return." You can't blame them for being a bit jaded...

M-C
04-12-2004, 20:11
I'd say the young ladies are just making hay while the sun shines. After all they often grew up being told they'd be old by 25, that men would always cheat on them, abuse them and them leave them holding the bag...... they've seen quite a few examples of the above too. They might want to meet the near lonely future with a healthy savings account if possible.
MDW, I suggest you go for a cheaper holiday or start hanging out in libraries (foreign literature for ex);)

half crazed visigoth
05-12-2004, 22:38
I can see it from both sides- I have had different responses- far Eastern( vladivostok) ladies will in general expect the guy to pay for everything whereas moscow girls are more independent-minded. I had a friend from Vlad visit me and although there was no proper relationship she expected me to take her out in Moscow whenever she wanted, plead poverty all the time and then expect compliments over a brand new coat costing $200!!!

What it really comes down to, and I am not gainsaying Koba's comments as I think most people including myself like to do the gentlemenly thing, is if you feel cheated by this attitude. If the girl is my girlfriend then I have no problem paying for most things. Mink coats being a notable exception, I might add. There is a line and if you feel the person has crossed it, leave. Now.You do have a choice. Or had you forgotten that?

Finally this is different for serious relationships( ie cohabiting and co- financing) as you are in such a relationship where all things should be shared, and if you are in such a relationship with a selfish person, then perhaps you ought consider someone else? In general, you get the person you deserve...Lecture over, time for someone else's half-baked views..

cls
06-12-2004, 11:07
I think the expats that are moaning about Russian girls not paying need to review their tactics and choices. I have been here for 8 years and in the early days, I got caught in the same trap....but this in hindsight was due to the type of girl I was trying to form a relationship with.

Most modern Russian girls who are not 'passport fishing' do pay their way. Of course if their domestic 'men in black' want to wave huge wads of US$ around the place and pick the girls up in their Land Cruisers then the subsequent relationship with an expat will seem somewhat different to them.

In general, the 'normal' girls are fine.....but I think we need to look more at the over paid, over sexed, ugly, expats who when based in Moscow (as we are talking mainly about this town for now) seem to think that the beautiful, sexy, half his age, Russian girl he met last night in the club the night before REALLY did like him for who and what he is and that it is nothing to do with his money!!!!

At the end of the day, Russia is blessed with an unbalanced and unfair amount of pretty girls and we as expats do have an advantage over the majority of Russian men. However, once most of the moaning expats go back home to their wives and families, will they really care? or is it a case of not wishing to pay for sex or feel in their mind that the 'relationship' they have just had for a long time was nothing more than a prostiuted relationship.

Grow up and be men.

pengwn9
06-12-2004, 12:53
You tell em, Olim! Ouch!

cls
06-12-2004, 18:22
Sorry if you were offended.

But it irritates me greatly when expats moan about the cost of their night time activites when away from home.

I married a Russian 2 years ago and we have been together for 8 years in total. Even though Tanya is only 26 now, she has always paid, or tried to pay, as much into our relationship as possible.

Her friends are the same.

However, when I hear my associate expats talking about what club/bar they were in last night, how the woman were all over them and how they had to pay for everything.....it annoys me very, very much.

Most of these women would not even sneeze in the direction of most of these miserable and dirty old men if they were not in the situation they find themselves in.

I am certain that most women, anywhere in the world, would rather find a nice man who want a long-term, sincere and deep relationship and not a one night stand with or without money.

jchidg1
06-12-2004, 19:04
Good for you.....well said sir!

I had my first barney with my Russian boyfriend because I tried to pay for a round of drinks. I had not been able to contribute and wanted to at least buy him and his friends a beer. He earns considerably less than I do so I was mortified when he insisted on paying for transport, meals and drinks. He argued that it was part of his culture that men pay and women don't. Eh? My argument was that if you're in a long term relationship you share and contribute what you can. Think I'm going to have to work on this one.
However, if I had asked sombody out to dinner I would certainly expect to pay, but a large G and T beforehand or an offer to pay the tip would be appreciated, unless they turned out to be a boring minger and then it would have to be two large G and Ts.

koba65
06-12-2004, 19:28
Originally posted by cls
Sorry if you were offended.

But it irritates me greatly when expats moan about the cost of their night time activites when away from home.

I married a Russian 2 years ago and we have been together for 8 years in total. Even though Tanya is only 26 now, she has always paid, or tried to pay, as much into our relationship as possible.

Her friends are the same.

However, when I hear my associate expats talking about what club/bar they were in last night, how the woman were all over them and how they had to pay for everything.....it annoys me very, very much.

Most of these women would not even sneeze in the direction of most of these miserable and dirty old men if they were not in the situation they find themselves in.

I am certain that most women, anywhere in the world, would rather find a nice man who want a long-term, sincere and deep relationship and not a one night stand with or without money.

I don't understand why they complain about having to pay for everything - that's probably how they "attracted" them in the first place. I pay because I WANT to pay, not because I HAVE to pay. There is a difference. I do the same when I'm in the States or anywhere else. If I get the impression that I've hooked up with a gold digger, I look elsewhere. I guess the simple rule is, if I invite them out, I pay. Having said that, in my early days in Moscow I did get burned a couple times by the ol' invite one girl out and she and a friend or two show up for a nice expensive night on the town.

Braders
07-12-2004, 05:27
Originally posted by cls
In general, the 'normal' girls are fine.....but I think we need to look more at the over paid, over sexed, ugly, expats who when based in Moscow (as we are talking mainly about this town for now) seem to think that the beautiful, sexy, half his age, Russian girl he met last night in the club the night before REALLY did like him for who and what he is and that it is nothing to do with his money!!!! Grow up and be men.

I think you've gone off on an entirely different tangent cls.

and appear to be having a pop at dirty old expats on a mission to get a 1 night stand, which has nothing to do with the original question posted, which to me was a question about the guy paying for everything once on a prearranged date or once he's in a relationship.
As outlined:


Originally posted by MDW
I am serious. That's some kinda mystery to me. I understand when a man invites a girl out, but when she wants to take him out, he still has to pay. She never even suggests to tip in. Not even a small share, tips for Christ's sake!

The more the "better". When he lives with her, she expects him to pay rent, for clothes, for food, for trips, for jewelry.


Your post seems to be be based solely on this subject:


Originally posted by cls
However, when I hear my associate expats talking about what club/bar they were in last night, how the woman were all over them and how they had to pay for everything.....it annoys me very, very much.

Most of these women would not even sneeze in the direction of most of these miserable and dirty old men if they were not in the situation they find themselves in.


Of course in this situation the guy would pay for everything, quite literally! ;)

I'm 33 my Wife is 33 and we've been together 10 years, so i'm not one of those dirty old expats.

I don't go for that 'New Russian Woman' either i know a few women who earn $2000-$3000 and they are good friends of mine they still think the guy should pay for everything. They have an interest in foreign Men but their main aim isn't a Passport.
I have had long debates on the subject with them they just think differently from most Westerners.

Outlaw
07-12-2004, 09:36
I didn't even bother to read the whole thread, but you're wrong, dude. I've had PLENTY of Russian chicks buy me drinks.

Alice
07-12-2004, 10:29
what about young girls, who are students and dont work yet, would you ask them to pay for themselves too? :)

I feel strong disgust to a man who wouldnt even buy me a drink.

If this man wouldnt even spend 100 rubles on a drink for me, then he definitely has most unserious intentions...
I understand if a guy is out of money, then ok, but if he has no problems with money, and definitely has more of it than me (unemployed), then why is it hard to buy me a drink?

If he refuses to spend mere 100 rubles, then he must be very selfish person...

pengwn9
07-12-2004, 12:24
Alice, I'd spend 100 rubles to buy you a drink. Hell, I'll buy ya two.

CaveMan
07-12-2004, 12:49
Originally posted by Braders
so i'm not one of those dirty old expats.

What you mean dirty.....LOL :eek:

CaveMan
07-12-2004, 12:55
Originally posted by pengwn9
Alice, I'd spend 100 rubles to buy you a drink. Hell, I'll buy ya two.

I am increasing to 3 !!!

Ps Loan application attached, pls complete and return...payment required in 3 installments either cash or drinks equ. LOL

bagehot
07-12-2004, 13:06
Originally posted by Alice
If he refuses to spend mere 100 rubles, then he must be very selfish person...

Girls that need your money to get drinks aren't really interested in you, just like girls that want money for sex aren't really horny. Usually women that want free drinks won't have sex with you. In Russia, women live 20 years longer, get free drinks, and don't have to go to the army. This is why it's surprisingly common for men to leave them soon after a child is born.

I always buy my girlfriend drinks - I get her Klinskoe Arriba for 18 rubles and put a slice of lemon in it.

allice
07-12-2004, 13:14
Originally posted by bagehot
Girls that need your money to get drinks aren't really interested in you, just like girls that want money for sex aren't really horny. Usually women that want free drinks won't have sex with you. In Russia, women live 20 years longer, get free drinks, and don't have to go to the army. This is why it's surprisingly common for men to leave them soon after a child is born.

I always buy my girlfriend drinks - I get her Klinskoe Arriba for 18 rubles and put a slice of lemon in it.

Wow, how many times does she have to **** you to get that beer? :rolleyes:

Idiot Amin
07-12-2004, 13:16
Originally posted by allice
Wow, how many times does she have to phoak you to get that beer? :rolleyes:

The answer is zero - any girl who would even give "Bagehot" the time of day is already phoaked!

pengwn9
07-12-2004, 14:01
Originally posted by bagehot
In Russia, women live 20 years longer, get free drinks, and don't have to go to the army. This is why it's surprisingly common for men to leave them soon after a child is born.

bagehot, your logic here completely escapes me.

Because Russian women outlive men and get free drinks--men commonly leave them after childbirth. Squirrel quality nuts. How did you arrive at this incoherent conclusion?

jchidg1
07-12-2004, 14:38
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat are you lot on? Snow and no food? What a load of old sh 1 te.

polly
07-12-2004, 14:49
Originally posted by bagehot
In Russia, women live 20 years longer,

THAN RUSSIAN MEN

which frankly, is not saying that much.

and yeah, you make no sense.

say, you know cats climb trees and that's why fish leave.

360KiloStripedKitty
07-12-2004, 14:51
People, Bagehot is gone. Please do not memorialise him or entice him to come back under yet another name by responding to or commenting upon the putrid product of his mental peristalsis!

Bezdomny
07-12-2004, 17:15
Why are you all so cheap? what are you saving it for? It'll never postpone death.

If you love it so much, go out and make more of it, instead of counting your change in the cafe.

DPG
07-12-2004, 17:21
Bezdomny -

So what you are effectively saying, is that the guys who mentioned above that they wouldn't pay for everything are cheap because they like to save money sometimes instead of spending it all.

-But-

That the women of whom they write are not cheap, despite the fact that they would never pay for anything and expect to save all of their money while being "sponsored" (for want of a better word)...

Great logic!!

Bezdomny
07-12-2004, 17:28
If you were a real man, you would worry about yourself. Worry about your own spending habits. dont worry about saving a "little" money, worry about making more.

DPG
07-12-2004, 17:33
Erm, I rather think that if you read the thread, that is really what they were implying...

They are indeed worrying about themselves which is why they wrote what they wrote in the first place...

Why limit your argument to men only, why the sexism? Can not women earn (more) money, spend and enjoy it or do whatever with it...better than taking it to the grave with you, wouldn't you say? (Oppps, you already did...).