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BRASCO
01-12-2004, 23:25
what are your thoughts on turkey's membership to the eu? im not saying anything yet regarding membership. however i will say the following;

1. cyprus territorrial problem
2. kurdistan problem in south-west
3. lazi population problem in north-west
4. human rights violations, including torture of politicall opponents
5. virtually non-existent relations with; in the east; greece, and bad relations with bulgaria. in the west; non-exsistant relations with armenia, iran, troublesome iraq, and hostile syria... the borders aren't exactly sweet.
6. continues (open) support for north-caucasus (russia) rebels/separatists including chechens and possible links to terrorist organisations in the north-caucasus
7. radical (islamic-extremists) views shared by a large percentage of their politicians, including 'sharia law'.

now, 2 + 3 undermine about 35% of turkey's territory, and were only acquired less than 80 years ago which can at any moment start rebel-movements (civil war)... hmmmm

quincy
02-12-2004, 02:53
You said it all! I read somewhere that 90 years ago, 30% of Turkey was Christian, today it is proud to be 99.5% Moslem, proud that is, of having so efficiently disposed of millions of Christian natives of that region. Many EU citizens seem either ambivalent or uneasy but certain EU politicians with an eye on the oil pipelines from Azerbaijan to Turkey have brushed aside all the problems you mention (including more than 1,000 cases of torture last year) to press for their next strategic real-estate acquisition project

alan100
03-12-2004, 09:14
I think its time to wheel out my old "midnight express" video
if Turkey join god help us all
its an utter and complete joke

Delacroix
03-12-2004, 18:00
Hello there,
after these posts I saw, I'm not sure if its ok for me to say openly that I'm Turkish?

However I agree with most of the listed problems and concerns.
First of all 90 years ago, Turkey didn't existed.
It was Ottoman empire with huge land m**** covering a lot of christian people. After its fall at 1920 Turkey has been created by Turkish people. During and after the fall of the empire it was terrible times. There was a war going on.
Actually I didn't started this post to give you a historic background, most probably your history knowledges are better than mine.
No country in the world is perfect. Neither Turkey. I agree that current government takes its power regarding to its muslim basis. The majority of voting people are not well educated and they have strong belief to their religion.
And to most of us, its not important if they take Turkey to Eu or not. To get to EU, this new government has to complete some new civil laws, new developments, it has to reach some standarts. These things do change Turkey. At least education system has improved. I hate to say that but without trying to get to EU, nothing will make the country better.
Maybe they take Turkey, maybe not. I look now again to Brasco's list and I agree with some of them. Some of them are real for almost all countries.
I really am not well at political discussions but I know one thing, I hate it when the reactions of the people do change when I say "I'm Turkish". Maybe I'm not a "profile" Turkish. I don't look like a regular Turkish guy, I don't care about religious stuff, I eat and like to eat pork, I like to drink wine but not more like tequila. I didn't had a family member with turban, or big mustache or strict religious beliefs.
I saw Germany, I saw Paris, I saw Amsterdam. I don't even think that Turkey has a chance to enter EU. But it doesn't means that it has to try at least.
Thanks for reading this far.

PS: I don't like the movie you mentioned. Not because of the torture scenes or it shows how stupid and animal like all turkish people are. I just don't like it because it shows only the worst. I don't like the movie because when you watch, it makes you hate from all Turkish people.

I wish I could invite all of you to my summer place, and show the good sides of my country...

360KiloStripedKitty
03-12-2004, 18:04
Originally posted by Delacroix
I saw Germany, I saw Paris, I saw Amsterdam. I don't even think that Turkey has a chance to enter EU.

I saw Istanbul (and not just Taksim square, Nisantasi, Akmerkez mall etc but also some less pleasant parts) and I saw Eskesehir (former pipe smoker and collector here :)) - and I think it does. I shop at Ramstore and use Hayat and Baser household chemicals, and I think it does. I have at least one bottle of Turkish raki in the house, and I drink at Efes's pub here from time to time - and I think it does. And Erdogan does NOT support sharia as far as I have read. Turkey has made very great strides in a number of areas - for instance, the army is now under civilian control - and all of this happened under AK and Erdogan, of all people.

Delacroix
03-12-2004, 18:35
Kitty, (First of all, I think somewhere else I have to take your advices about pipe smoking. I started it a 2 years ago. Still a junior on this area.)


And about Erdogan (my father has the same name btw), he can not openly support shaira, not anymore. Because he did in former party. He was second man in the party and he made really heavy shaira supportive speeches, like the party at that time. After the party closed by great court and he was suspened from all political actions, he created AK (means pure white) with his fellows. After they get the leadership, they changed the laws for Erdogan and now he is the president. I agree about the good things that has been done. But they are based on very heavy islamic measures. Such things are not visible not. They say that Erdogan has changed and tries to make good in Turkey. We will see.

"My Country is the World, my Religion is Love" or something like this. Why everything gets more complicated when religion mixes in it?

360KiloStripedKitty
03-12-2004, 18:42
Originally posted by Delacroix
And about Erdogan (my father has the same name btw), he can not openly support shaira, not anymore. Because he did in former party. He was second man in the party

Are we talking about Erbakan's gang here (Refah, was it)? In that case, are you saying that AK is just whitewashed Refah? That would be a disaster indeed (and perhaps in that case the party should be renamed BOK ;))!

But at the end of the day, would they have the possibility of implementing sharia? When I was in Istanbul, Erdogan was mayor, I believe - and I bought all the raki I wanted - it did not seem like an Islamist city in any way, although the election posters for Fazilet, as well as nasty graffiti along the lines of "Laiklik Kopekleri" were a bit off-putting.

crom
03-12-2004, 18:45
Originally posted by BRASCO
what are your thoughts on turkey's membership to the eu? im not saying anything yet regarding membership. however i will say the following;

5. virtually non-existent relations with; in the east; greece, and bad relations with bulgaria. in the west; non-exsistant relations with armenia, iran, troublesome iraq, and hostile syria... the borders aren't exactly sweet.


Isn't this is a reversable geopolitical racist discriminatory remark!

In other words - do you live in any of these countries? if so better your first hand experience than spouting tabloid politics

Delacroix
03-12-2004, 18:51
As I said I'm not very good about politics, so I'm not the one who can claim that they are washed Refah. But they are "cooked" in refah as far as I concern.
And I don't think they are trying to implement shaira. If they have enough control, and now they do, they do not need to move in that level.
In an train accident many people died recently. A minister spoke on tv and said that everything happened under gods will.
Before AK, or before refah such speeches didn't existed. No one needs to be reminded about god, or its will, at that time.
I hope that things will go to a better direction in my country. Because in the last 15 years it didn't.

Kitty, I respect your knowledge about Turkey. Been there a lot of times I guess?

bagehot
03-12-2004, 20:39
The Economist seems to like the idea of Turkey being a member. Maybe a Turkish influence could convince the EU to abandon some of its silly humanitarian ideas and become a mighty power. Turkish Islam is not scary and weird like, for example, Christianity in Mississippi. Maybe in 100 years, Turkish Muslims will be like British Christians - everyday consumers who have never read the Koran but say that they believe in a 'higher power' who's message to the Earth is 'be nice to people.'

I think there were less restrictions on Raki in Istanbul than there are on alcohol in most Bible-belt states.

Most of Turkey is not in Europe. Most Turkic states are in central Asia. I wouldn't want Turkey in the EU for the same reason that I wouldn't want Israel or Canada in it - because I don't want the EU to become a monstrous world government that would prostheletize Franco-German socialism. I'm all in favor of the EU sharing a land border with only two countries - Turkey and Russia. Turkey already has a customs union - why would they want all of the weird restrictions and regulations that the Europeans have stuck themselves with?

BRASCO
03-12-2004, 23:26
Originally posted by crom
Isn't this is a reversable geopolitical racist discriminatory remark!

In other words - do you live in any of these countries? if so better your first hand experience than spouting tabloid politics

what are you talking about? its common knowledge, even if they dont yell about it. my friends were resting in antalya while the olympics were starting and at a local bar, they were refusing to turn on the tv. after persuasion they did, but still, kind of shows you the relations between the countries... if given thee slightest reason, and if the world was to turn a blind eye to this, these guys (all of the countries mentioned above) would war with turkey until there was only ankara left...

IRS_Runner
04-12-2004, 08:50
The Polish will once again save Europe from the Turks, asking Turkey to join the UN is like asking Iran to govern Israel.

360KiloStripedKitty
04-12-2004, 09:45
Originally posted by Delacroix
Kitty, I respect your knowledge about Turkey. Been there a lot of times I guess?

Been there twice - thought of expanding my business to Turkey and even took Turkish lessons - changed my mind because there is more than enough to do here and my idea would not have worked in Turkey.

How is Istanbul for New Years?

CaveMan
04-12-2004, 11:33
Istanbul would be great for new years.....If I wasn't flying to London I would be there this year.

Also, Brasco, as you mentioned 'all those guys would war with Turkey until only Ankara' left, the same goes for the same countries would fight US until no city left, same goes for Russia, China, and lots more countries around the globe...

Even though I was born and raised in Turkey, I am against Turkey joinining EU, that would damage Turkey not EU. Turkey is almost self sufficient, managed to seperate religion and plotics to a point where most countries failed, Economy is better compared to lets say 15 years ago, GDP is increasing.

I think we should end this tread here as this is getting silly and racist.

quincy
04-12-2004, 13:03
This site seems to make a strong argument against Turkey joining the EU
It says:
"According to the propaganda from those who want Turkey in the EU, the fact it is a Muslim country will benefit Europe. This is nonsense. Albania is the only Muslim country in Europe (Turkey is in Asia). Currently Albania does not expect to join until 2010-2015. If having a Muslim country is so important, why isn't Albania being fast-tracked for EU membership? The truth is these people want Turkey in the EU because of its strategic position in relation to the oil producing regions of the Middle East and the Caspian Sea. They don't give two hoots about Human Rights."

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/r.a.mccartney/turkey/eu_membership.html

BRASCO
04-12-2004, 17:21
"Also, Brasco, as you mentioned 'all those guys would war with Turkey until only Ankara' left, the same goes for the same countries would fight US until no city left, same goes for Russia, China, and lots more countries around the globe..." - ok the difference is china, russia, usa are superpowers. turkey is not in their league. you compated a country to 3 most powerful states in the world.

"Even though I was born and raised in Turkey, I am against Turkey joinining EU, that would damage Turkey not EU. Turkey is almost self sufficient, managed to seperate religion and plotics to a point where most countries failed, Economy is better compared to lets say 15 years ago, GDP is increasing." - good job, so who's forcing turkey to join?

"I think we should end this tread here as this is getting silly and racist." - except for maybe 1 remark, i dont see anything silly and especially racist.

J.D.
05-12-2004, 02:10
Originally posted by Erol Ver

I think we should end this tread here as this is getting silly and racist.

You seem to be saying that if anyone says anything negative about Turkey then they are a racist.

It seems that you would have liked for this thread to be closed before it was opened.


What is it with people who say "Time to close this thread"?
What? People aren't agreeing with you so you want to gag them?

CaveMan
06-12-2004, 13:30
I think both JD and Brasco got the wrong end....

When ppl start talking about 'bringing out Midnight Express', efficiently disposing of Christians, I get the feeling of Racism and hatred, call me paranoid....

Also no one is forcing Turkey to join EU, it was EU initally invited Turkey back in '60s but since then nothing happened for one reason to another.

Well anyway, Turkey won't be in EU for another 15-20 years (only if then !) so Europe is safe !! (ie no need for the Polish, they are busy in Ukraine anyway !!)

Take care ppl, and if you are at the December 19 Boozing , find me and I'll buy you guys a beer or 2....

quincy
06-12-2004, 18:32
Some leading EU politicians (such as enlargement chief Verheugen) have pushed for Turkish membership without proper public debate. As for racism, take a look at this statement by the Turkish Minister of Justice at the height of the much-praised drive by Ataturk for reform, westernization and secularism. Giant posters of the revered Ataturk still gaze on the public below from most town squares in Turkey, in scenes that are more typical of North Korea than a prospective EU applicant

"The Turk is the only master in his country. Those who are not pure
Turks
have one right in this country: The right to be servants, the right
to be
slaves"

Turkish Minister of Justice. Newspaper Milliet, September 30, 1930.