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Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 07:37
"We can't recognize or protest because no official results have yet been announced," Putin said yesterday during a visit to Lisbon, speaking about the situation in Ukraine. "I can advise others to follow our example".

This from the same Putin who phoned Prime Minister Yanukovich to congratulate him on Monday his "decisive" victory in the election.

What a dickhead. Why does he think just because he's surrounded by slaves at home that no-one else in the world can think for themselves and see through his bullshit?

Crystal
24-11-2004, 09:31
It was also pleasant to hear from our President that Jushenko supporters should stay within legal field. As if many politicians in Russia including himself still remember what it is :(

vince
24-11-2004, 10:26
I sometimes get the feeling that Mr. P thinks his power is unlimited in Eastern Europe.... :(

This behavior is really arrogant :(

J.D.
24-11-2004, 10:27
and dangerous

Halyavshik
24-11-2004, 10:56
Originally posted by vince
I sometimes get the feeling that Mr. P thinks his power is unlimited in Eastern Europe.... :(

In many ways, he's right.

Shaun
24-11-2004, 11:20
on the news the other night:

'it will be sad if yushchenko supporters take to the streets, because it will be the end of democracy in Ukraine - as we all know, democracy has no place for violence.'

nice logic.

SVL
24-11-2004, 11:58
Originally posted by Ned Kelly

Why does he think just because he's surrounded by slaves at home that no-one else in the world can think for themselves and see through his bullshit?

Slaves? Hmmm...may be you should try to tell this "truth" to Russians in the streets?

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 12:10
i was talking about journalists....but i'd be happy to repeat it to anyone on the street here.

SVL
24-11-2004, 14:15
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
i was talking about journalists....but i'd be happy to repeat it to anyone on the street here.

Start trying. Do you need Russian translation for this?

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 14:17
you offering?

SVL
24-11-2004, 14:18
Yeah. Native Russian.

DPG
24-11-2004, 14:21
Originally posted by Halyavshik
In many ways, he's right.

With most of Eastern Europe falling into one or more of the following categories:

-Member of NATO
-Member of the EU
-Users of the Euro currency
-[Ergo] Countries looking to distance themselves socially, politically and economically from The Former USSR, Eastern Europe and Russia
-Countries whose populations and/or governments wouldn't spit into Russia if it were on fire

I can't see many ways at all - would you care to elaborate...

Congratulations on your 1000th post by the way!...Novel experience?!;)

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 14:25
cool. anyway, i understand the point you're making and in the vast majority of cases you're right.

what i was saying was that here putin can say anything, no matter how illogical, and not be challenged.

would you say telling other countries not to talk about voting irregularities until the final results are in after having called one of the candidates to officially congratulate them on being elected president 24 hours earlier not slightly illogical?

...i'd say it's the first stages of hubris.

DJ Biscuit
24-11-2004, 14:32
I agree it's ridiculous, but I don't see what makes Putin such a special case for this point, Bush says ridiculous things all the time and in The US they claim to have freedom of speech but no one really takes any notice so why should they pick on every little foolish statement made by his counterpart here?

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 14:34
i'm just not a believer in the "always a bigger dickhead" school of thought.

vince
24-11-2004, 14:34
Actually Mr. P officially retracted :D

The western pressure was to high (it's in today's Moscow Times I think) :D

DJ Biscuit
24-11-2004, 14:37
See, these things don't slip through, the pressure exerted by Ned was too much!

DJ Biscuit
24-11-2004, 14:38
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
i'm just not a believer in the "always a bigger dickhead" school of thought.


Indeed. ;)

vince
24-11-2004, 14:43
Apparently Mr. Ned knows big shots :p

SVL
24-11-2004, 14:45
So, Ned, you don`t need Russian translation?:)
BTW, please tell me what differentiates you from Putin?
Putin:
1) "a decisive victory!"
2) "i was talking about exit-polls"
Ned:
1) "Putin is surrounded by slaves!"
2) "i was talking about journalists"

DJ Biscuit
24-11-2004, 14:51
LOL.

The difference is Ned is not an elected civil servant who is paid to run the country on behalf of his voters.

SVL
24-11-2004, 15:09
*Makes a note in his notebook:
"you should never elect Ned Kelly!"

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 15:10
Originally posted by SVL
So, Ned, you don`t need Russian translation?:)
BTW, please tell me what differentiates you from Putin?
Putin:
1) "a decisive victory!"
2) "i was talking about exit-polls"
Ned:
1) "Putin is surrounded by slaves!"
2) "i was talking about journalists"

i didn't have exit polls showing yuschenko 9pp ahead.

SVL
24-11-2004, 15:13
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
i didn't have exit polls showing yuschenko 9pp ahead.

Any polls showing the percentage of slaves around Putin?:bookworm:

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 15:15
Originally posted by SVL
Any polls showing the percentage of slaves around Putin?:bookworm:

there probably are but you can't publish them.

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 15:17
you can usually spot them though, they're wide-eyed in adoration.

SVL
24-11-2004, 15:17
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
there probably are but you can't publish them.

Please provide me with some, I'm not afraid of mighty KGB:)

Halyavshik
24-11-2004, 15:21
Originally posted by DPG
With most of Eastern Europe falling into one or more of the following categories:

-Member of NATO
-Member of the EU
-Users of the Euro currency
-[Ergo] Countries looking to distance themselves socially, politically and economically from The Former USSR, Eastern Europe and Russia
-Countries whose populations and/or governments wouldn't spit into Russia if it were on fire

I can't see many ways at all - would you care to elaborate...

Congratulations on your 1000th post by the way!...Novel experience?!;)

Regardless of currencies or what they're members of, a fair amount of Eastern Europe is heavily dependent on Russian business. The Baltics' economies are quite heavily dependent on Russian exports/imports. Other parts of Eastern Europe rely on Russian gas.

While they may wish to be distanced, the harsh reality is that they're not and that Putin wields an enormous amount of power economically.

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 15:27
Originally posted by SVL
Please provide me with some, I'm not afraid of mighty KGB:)

well, you see the reporting on the leading news and current affairs programs on ORT, Rossiya and NTV and/or the (very rare) interviews he gives and tell me how often he gets a hard question or critical coverage?

that's why his most frenzied public moments are abroad because he can't understand how a journalist can ask him a normal question without being on some opposition payroll.

J.D.
24-11-2004, 15:31
Originally posted by vince
Actually Mr. P officially retracted :D

The western pressure was to high (it's in today's Moscow Times I think) :D

Where did you hear this 'official retraction' stuff?
What I read sounded more like he tried to weasel out of it with some wrong crap about exit polls.

SVL
24-11-2004, 15:34
"well, you see the reporting on the leading news and current affairs programs on ORT, Rossiya and NTV and/or the (very rare) interviews he gives and tell me how often he gets a hard question or critical coverage?"

Please show me a single nationwide pro-Putin newspaper or well-known magazine:) Just one, please:)

I`m not pro-Putin now, but for my own peasons, and my comments are here just to show you, that you seriously lack some knowledge about Russia and Russian political system.

J.D.
24-11-2004, 15:36
Putin also, now, says that he will not recognize or reject the results until they are official.
Well he seems to have already recognized Yanukovych so is he now suggesting that he will reject Yushchenko if he is officially declared the winner?

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 15:38
Originally posted by SVL
"Please show me a single nationwide pro-Putin newspaper or well-known magazine:) Just one, please:).

why do you insist on inserting smiles?

anyway, newspapers and magazines here are totally impotent in terms of political power. the handful that aren't totally rotten with zakazukha have tiny circulations. it's a meaningless comparison.

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 15:46
jesus man...waiting, waiting.

tell me, do you ever see putin ducking and weaving from probing questions by vitaly tretyakov or mikhail leontiev?...ok, ok i know he quakes at the prospect of tatyana mitkova.

SVL
24-11-2004, 15:49
Ok, so all those opposition-controlled newspapers and magazines are zakazukha? Fine (*makes another note in his notebook). And you can easily judge if the newspaper is honest by it`s tiny circulation? (*rolls on the floor laughning)
So, instead of mighty KGB we are controlled by our TVs? Hmm...then who controls me? And how? I don`t have s TV since 2000! (*makes a third note "you should buy a TV, or you'll be out of control!")
I`m smiling because it`s really funny for me to see you trying to teach Russian politics to someone who lives here for 29 years. But, probably, that`s not me but a KGB agent controlling me by means of secret internet subnetwork?

....$#^%#&&....communication lost
^&$....^%$.....communication restored

Agent Ivanov says: SVL is gone to make some tea and report this conversation to the authorities. I demand that you stay where you are, our operatives are on the way!

J.D.
24-11-2004, 15:54
We are either directly or indirectly controlled by our tv. Stupid people, the vast overwhelming majority, are directly controlled. The rest of us are controlled indirectly through the control of that vast overwhelming majority of stupid people.

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 15:58
no, you have kommersant owned by mr berezovsky. you have vedomosti owned by whoever. you have izvestia owned by mr potanin. these are all major opposition figures fighting for truth and justice...ahem, yeah right.

then you have the good folks at argumenti i fakti...no zakazukha there....perish the thought!

i wasn't trying to teach you anything. i stated a point of view, you responded to it, i responded to you.

but like me you know that when elections have been swung in this country it has been by ort (dorenko and the duma in 1999 being the classic example) not by newspapers, who generally don;t make a profit because they can't get enough advertising because not enough people read them.

SVL
24-11-2004, 16:02
In both 2000 and 2004 Russians really voted for Putin. For our own reasons, and we don`t care about what TV and newspapers say since Soviet times.
And in 2008 we will vote for someone else, again, for our own reasons.
We aren`t Americans, simple as that, so please don`t overestimate TV and newspapers, you`re in Moscow now.

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 16:05
i'm not american. i don't deny putin's broader popularity.

but he was initially the creation of the kremlin elite in late 1999 to stave off luzhkov taking over the country and redistributing assets. ort played a massive, to use putin's words "decisive!" role in that parliamentary election campaign.

he went on to become his own person after that, for sure.

sparky
24-11-2004, 16:08
Just wondering what media Muscovites use to make an informed decision if nobody acknowledges TV or newspapers, and why are those editors wasting their time.

SVL
24-11-2004, 16:11
i'm not american. i don't deny putin's broader popularity.

but he was initially the creation of the kremlin elite in late 1999 to stave off luzhkov taking over the country

Luzhkov taking over the country?! Where did you read this?! He's so unpopular in regional Russia that he had no chances to become even a candidate for a Presidential race in 1999.
And, may be Putin is his own person, but he is an elected civil servant, which will be replaced in 2008 (or earlier, in case of some critical mistake on his part), so he`s our person, too.

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 16:19
Originally posted by SVL
Luzhkov taking over the country?! Where did you read this?! He's so unpopular in regional Russia that he had no chances to become even a candidate for a Presidential race in 1999.
And, may be Putin is his own person, but he is an elected civil servant, which will be replaced in 2008 (or earlier, in case of some critical mistake on his part), so he`s our person, too.

yes, primakov was the font-man, we can be pedantic; but luzhkov was the power behind him. and yes, it was the duma campaign in 1999 and presidential campaign in 2000. and no, i didn't read about it, i was here.

and yes, 4+4=8 which means in 2008 you'll elect someone new.

what are you trying to say?

kak
24-11-2004, 16:23
Originally posted by SVL
In both 2000 and 2004 Russians really voted for Putin. For our own reasons

:confused: was there any other choice or candidate :confused:
Do you find this normal ?

SVL
24-11-2004, 16:27
what are you trying to say?

You need to understand why Putin is in power now, why Putin acts like this in Ukraine and why these actions are supported by majority of Russians. To understand this, you need to know more about Russian and USSR`s history. I hope that once you'll understand this, you will stop looking for slaves among Russians.

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 16:29
Originally posted by SVL
You need to understand why Putin is in power now, why Putin acts like this in Ukraine and why these actions are supported by majority of Russians. To understand this, you need to know more about Russian and USSR`s history. I hope that once you'll understand this, you will stop looking for slaves among Russians.

i do. i have family in the crimea. i would love to see ukraine and russia as one country which to me is a more natural state of affairs.

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 16:30
but, i also have huge respect for democracy and no respect for ex-criminals running as presidential candidates and trying to fix elections to win.

when i see putin endorsing that with some convoluted logic it gets my goat.

kak
24-11-2004, 16:34
Originally posted by SVL
You need to understand why Putin is in power now, why Putin acts like this in Ukraine and why these actions are supported by majority of Russians. To understand this, you need to know more about Russian and USSR`s history. I hope that once you'll understand this, you will stop looking for slaves among Russians.

You are missing on point SVL:
Ukrainians are in the streets and they are telling this:
We do not want a candidate that someone has chosen for us! :mad:
Forget "history" the world is MOVING!

SVL
24-11-2004, 16:34
Then why are you surprised? Putin will have to support even the Devil, if this guy will promise to change the state of affairs, because we will support even the Devil in this case. And any other President will be under the same pressure. Moreover, Putin and his party will loose their power in 2008 or earlier if West wins this round of fighting.

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 16:34
because i like to think the world can be a little better. foolish of me, hey?

SVL
24-11-2004, 16:36
Forget "history" the world is MOVING!

We won`t. That's Russia, not France. We loose battles, not wars.

P.S. Eastern Ukraine and Crimea aren`t in the streets for Yushenko. Guess why?

Ned Kelly
24-11-2004, 16:39
Originally posted by SVL
Eastern Ukraine and Crimea aren`t in the streets for Yushenko. Guess why?

they're slaves? ;)

kak
24-11-2004, 16:40
Originally posted by SVL


P.S. Eastern Ukraine and Crimea aren`t in the streets for Yushenko. Guess why?

fear?

SVL
24-11-2004, 16:40
Of course! And KGB zombies:)

Shaun
24-11-2004, 17:54
Originally posted by SVL

So, instead of mighty KGB we are controlled by our TVs? Hmm...then who controls me? And how? I don`t have s TV since 2000! (*makes a third note "you should buy a TV, or you'll be out of control!")
I`m smiling because it`s really funny for me to see you trying to teach Russian politics to someone who lives here for 29 years.



Originally posted by SVL

In both 2000 and 2004 Russians really voted for Putin. For our own reasons, and we don`t care about what TV and newspapers say since Soviet times.


SVL you really don't think that people are influenced by the media, but vote for Putin for their 'own' reasons... umm, so how does the average person in yakutsk, blagoveschensk (or, indeed, moscow) even know who Putin is? Of course, we are all shaped by the agendas, whether conscious or not, that are present in our media. and while of course no country's media is bias-free, russia's TV media is crazy... of course there are historical and political reasons for this, but to deny that the media has an impact is ridulous.

Living in a country for 29 years doesnt make you qualified to lecture others on it's political system, you know... indeed, some outside perspective is often useful here...

SVL
24-11-2004, 18:37
Media`s impact is small here. That`s all. People do not believe media, even when newspapers and TV say the truth. They take facts or what looks like a fact and make their own opinions, right or wrong.

I know nothing of Russian TV or any other. I don`t have any:)

As for the political system - well, I`d say that the percentage of truth in Western outside perspective on Russia (well at least speaking of what I can read in your newspapers) is around 10%.
Some of media authors don`t have a clue, some do not want to have a clue, some just write zakazukha. It`s really hard to find an article (criticizing or not, I don`t care) which is knowledge-based.
Note: I don`t think Russian media are always right/objective/well-educated in foreign affairs, too.

exprumos
24-11-2004, 19:03
would anyone be willing to place bets on the next president being Alla B Bugacheva. She has to be the only person who gets more coverage on the first 3 channels than VVP.
And DVL, please do not try to tell us that the russian people (and many other peoples) are not influenced by TV. Russian TV has to be the best indicator that religion is no longer the opium of the masses - Banal Music has taken over. How else can you explain ABB or Larisa Dolina being shown on three different channels at the same time during prime time saturday nights?

exprumos
24-11-2004, 19:04
sorry, SVL not DVL

SVL
24-11-2004, 19:07
Well, if we are so much influenced, then Alla will be next President, right? I bet $100 that this won`t happen, what about you?:)

Crystal
24-11-2004, 22:11
SVL, sorry, but you seem to be living in some other reality saying that Russians are not influenced by media and PutinТs actions are widely supported throughout Russia. When did you last visit some small Russian town? Do you sincerely think many people there support VVP? Do they? Do those who die of drug addiction, alcoholism, poor living conditions, support VVP? I doubt it. People do not protest or try to defend their rights simply because many are no longer capable of it. They are simply indifferent. They do not live , they survive. Would you argue that?
True, life in Moscow is much better than anywhere else in Russia, but even this cannot last forever. How do you call the politics when with the current oil prices Russia is getting poorer and poorer, economic climate is getting worse, and just some individuals together with high rank officials and all mighty KGB are flourishing?
Close your eyes, imagine yourself living in once great Russian empire and you will be deeply offended to be called a slave. Right now I wouldnТt be that categorical. What is indifference of a person to his or her own life if not a sort of slavery?
As for Putin, not so many people knew who he was shortly before the first election campaign. And it is almost in no time that he became # 1 candidate. What was it if not a most efficient brain washing? Entering the second election campaign VVP shut up almost all opposition media and freed his way by getting rid of opponents. People supported him, true again (still not quite sure the majority, though), that indicated his PRs had done very good job.
It is certainly just my opinion and IТm not trying to teach politics you or anybody else. Patriotism is a good thing too. But it does seem strange that you ignore such obvious facts.

SVL
25-11-2004, 02:28
>SVL, sorry, but you seem to be living in some other reality saying that Russians are not influenced by media and PutinТs actions are widely supported throughout Russia.

All my life I live in this reality.

>When did you last visit some small Russian town?

2002, and I live in a small town near Moscow:) And I was born in Omsk. That says a lot if you know where it is and what kind of city is it.
And you?

>Do you sincerely think many people there support VVP? Do they?

Yes.

> Do those who die of drug addiction, alcoholism, poor living conditions, support VVP? I doubt it.

Me too. But in 2004 we have much less dying of "you name it" then in 2000. We can feel changes.

> People do not protest or try to defend their rights simply because many are no longer capable of it. They are simply indifferent.

LOL. No knowledge of Russian history, right? Throughout all Russian history we had riots, rebellions, and revolutions. Russians are always capable of protest, if the protest is needed.

>They do not live , they survive. Would you argue that?

Again, things are changing, that's why VVP is supported.

>True, life in Moscow is much better than anywhere else in Russia, but even this cannot last forever. How do you call the politics when with the current oil prices Russia is getting poorer and poorer, economic climate is getting worse, and just some individuals together with high rank officials and all mighty KGB are flourishing?

WOOT? Where have you read this "cold war" propaganda? I work for commerical company and we do not have ANY connections with KGB. And our business is growing. All my friends work for private companies, and all those companies grow (and no, most of my friends aren`t Muscovites or KGB agents)? What about 85% of GDP being produced by private sector? What about Russian hard currency and gold reserves being 50% bigger than those of USA? What about 7% annual GDP growth? What about 70 mil. cellular phone users here compared to 35 mil. in 2003? Russia is getting poorer? Stop listening to Mr. Zyuganov.

>And it is almost in no time that he became # 1 candidate. What was it if not a most efficient brain washing?

Nope. You do not know my country. In 1999 all the feelings of the majority of population towards their own country were the feelings of "Russia", some country in the middle of nowhere, which lost its war against Chechens, lost economics, lost its history, etc. In 2000, the very same population had the feeling of Rossiya (read: motivation to change the state of affairs). Thats why Putin won 2000 election. I wouldn`t say that Putin was a magician that changed everything (people did that, not him, personally) , but at least he was a symbol of changes. Well, probably, his time is gone now, but anyway, thanks, Mr.Putin.

>Entering the second election campaign VVP shut up almost all opposition media and freed his way by getting rid of opponents.

Oh, may be you can help me? Please show me a single nation-wide pro-Putin magazine or newspaper:)
And a good opponent to Putin, too, since we will need some replacement for him in 2008.

Ned Kelly
25-11-2004, 07:17
Originally posted by SVL
[BNope. You do not know my country. In 1999 all the feelings of the majority of population towards their own country were the feelings of "Russia", some country in the middle of nowhere, which lost its war against Chechens, lost economics,etc. .
[/B]

he was allowed to use nationalism. remember: чеченских террористов - "будем мочить в сортире"?

no-one else is or they're charged with "extremism".

and the oil price tripled, it's fairly straightforward..

Crystal
25-11-2004, 09:38
2002, and I live in a small town near Moscow And I was born in Omsk. That says a lot if you know where it is and what kind of city is it.
Ok, I wasn't actually speaking about Moscow suburbs either. Do you work in the very small town you live? Is your salary of Moscow level or that of a small provincial town? I guess the first, right?
Well, and to prevent further misunderstanding on the matter of my knowledge of Russian cities, history etc. .. I was born in a provincional city too, and I did study Russian history with profound interest. We all did at school :)
I've never been unpatriotic, but what's going on now doesn't give much hope for bright future.

Again, things are changing, that's why VVP is supported. Changing, but for many these are not changes for the better.

WOOT? Where have you read this "cold war" propaganda? I work for commerical company and we do not have ANY connections with KGB. And our business is growing. All my friends work for private companies, and all those companies grow (and no, most of my friends aren`t Muscovites or KGB agents)?
What about grey schemes most of the comapanies use? Double book-keeping? Are they legal? Any tax inspection would reveal them without a problem, still Russian Basmannaya Themis metes justice only over "chosen". You certainly know how things work.

Nope. You do not know my country. In 1999 all the feelings of the majority of population towards their own country were the feelings of "Russia", some country in the middle of nowhere, which lost its war against Chechens, lost economics, lost its history, etc. In 2000, the very same population had the feeling of Rossiya (read: motivation to change the state of affairs).
I won't argue with you about the point. That's truly how it was. But did many know Putin's program? Saw or read it? You personally did? His image was efficiently promoted and he became the symbol of changes when Eltzin wished him to become.


Oh, may be you can help me? Please show me a single nation-wide pro-Putin magazine or newspaper
Well, you don't have tv, so I can hardly help you here. :)
But if you (just out of mere curiosity) watch Russian tv channels (ORT, RTR etc.) you'll be very much surprised to discover how nice Russian journalists are. Think of Eltzin era. Remember how much dirt was pouring out on him? Now everything is ok, everything is just fine. Only population is dying out, money is flowing away out of the country, investment climate is bad even though the huge marked is not saturated. What about science? Space projects? As for cell phones... we don't produce them. Russia hardly produces anything now. Country is not developing, it lives on its resources and consumes import goods. Isn't it a shame for a country like Russia?

SVL
25-11-2004, 11:00
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
he was allowed to use nationalism. remember: чеченских террористов - "будем мочить в сортире"?

no-one else is or they're charged with "extremism".

and the oil price tripled, it's fairly straightforward..

Nationalism?! Chechen war has nothing in common with nationalism. And with oil prices, too:)
BTW, he said "террористов", not "чеченцев", so if this is some kind of nationalism, what would you say about USA and Israel?

Ned Kelly
25-11-2004, 11:05
no-one said the chechen war had anything to do with oil prices; the economic rebound most certainly does.

so putin didn't play the nationalist card? curious.

SVL
25-11-2004, 11:28
Hehe, what do you mean under nationalism? There can`t be any ethinicity-based nationalism in power in Russia. We have Jewish prime-minister, appointed by Putin, half-Georgian state secretary and many others, not- 00%- pure Russians, including myself:)))))

Ned Kelly
25-11-2004, 11:34
yes, and friendly policeman to guide the sometimes disoriented just-arrived folk from the southern republics.

ife
25-11-2004, 14:13
Politics in Russia just swings from one extreme to the other - recent history is a perfect example (rampant pillaging of every business sector by oligarchs - to the state taking control of everything again). There's never any gradual movement - I actually thought Putin was going to apply a steady guiding hand, but instead he and his administration are just using the state apparatus to redistribute the state's wealth away from the oilgarchs and into the siloviki's pockets.
I want to believe that things will get better, but while the laws are abused by just about everyone I can't see it.
As for the media, last night I watched NTV's coverage of the Ukraine situation and then Rossia's - it was like two completely different countries. The allusion to Western intervention in Yugoslavia's elections, then in Georgia's and now Ukraine's was quite interesting... I really don't understand why Russia worries so much about having democratic governments as neighbors - they all rely on Russia for so much without politics coming into it...

SVL
25-11-2004, 19:41
>Ok, I wasn't actually speaking about Moscow suburbs either. Do you work in the very small town you live? Is your salary of Moscow level or that of a small provincial town? I guess the first, right?

Right. And I had the same salary in Siberia:)

> Changing, but for many these are not changes for the better.

For the majority these changes are for the better. So they vote for Putin.

>What about grey schemes most of the comapanies use? Double book-keeping? Are they legal?

1) Much less then in 1999. 2) Same 3) Yes.

> Any tax inspection would reveal them without a problem, still Russian Basmannaya Themis metes justice only over "chosen". You certainly know how things work.

Yes, I do. My brother works as a lawyer. It`s not that bad now, really. Much better then in 1999:)

>That's truly how it was. But did many know Putin's program? Saw or read it? You personally did?

Yes, I did.

> His image was efficiently promoted and he became the symbol of changes when Eltzin wished him to become.

Elztin`s wishes in 2000 meant nothing, everyone considered him to be a complete drunkard.

>But if you (just out of mere curiosity) watch Russian tv channels (ORT, RTR etc.) you'll be very much surprised to discover how nice Russian journalists are.

Hmmm. Every time I see a TV, there is some stupid show in it. So I just pass by:)


>investment climate is bad even though the huge marked is not saturated.

Hmm. This week Russia`s investments rating was increased again, I think it`s a second or third increase this year. What`s your source of information, again? Gazeta "Zavtra"?

>What about science? Space projects? As for cell phones... we don't produce them.

Should we? We are not a North Korea, we do not need to produce everything. There is an international division of labour. We produce oil, weapons, metals, etc and sell these goods to buy cars, mobile phones, etc.

>It lives on its resources and consumes import goods. Isn't it a shame for a country like Russia?

Again, please show me some reliable source of such an information.

SVL
25-11-2004, 19:51
>I really don't understand why Russia worries so much about having democratic governments as neighbors <

Errr....democracy? In Georgia? Very interesting.

A few questions for you:
1) 88% of voters (!!) visited last Presidential elections in Georgia. Around 100% voted for S-shvili. That was very democratic:)

And now West says that 80+% number of voters in Ukraine cannot be true:) and Yanukovich only got 49%:), he didn`t want all votes:)

2) Almost all the money that West sends to Georgia, are being spent to buy guns, ammo, military equipment, etc.

Another example of democracy and smart way to spend money in a very poor country?

3) Georgia is a multinational country: Ossetians, Abkhazians, Armenians, Jews, Russians, and some other nations live there. But you will spend a hard time trying to find them among Georgian ministers and other top-ranked state authorities.

Because it`s _Georgian_ democracy, not theirs, right?:)

4) And, the last but not least - was it very democratic to start a war in Southern Ossetia on S-shvili part?

Ned Kelly
26-11-2004, 07:35
svl, you have some valid points because the west is frequently cast as altruistic and wonderful when in fact its actions are as banal and brutal as the next bloc.

but your defence of russian officials and officialdom as some multicultural chudo reflecting the marvellous diversity of your country is a joke. your officials are parasites - an unofficial aristocracy...and the population's failure to ever hold them to account is what causes russia to lurch from one crisis to another.

Crystal
26-11-2004, 09:39
Hmm. This week Russia`s investments rating was increased again, I think it`s a second or third increase this year. What`s your source of information, again? Gazeta "Zavtra"?
Ratings and official statistics are very convinient tools to persuade everything goes smoothly. Russian market has huge potential and it attracts investors just because it is huge. But our government does nothing to make it attractive to investors. On the contrary, how the investment climate can be favourable when even foreign managers start being afraid of working in Russia like in the Yukos case? In late 90-is times were hard, but then these were criminal structures that abused law. Now officials and siloviki don't even try to pretend, they do abuse laws openly and that is the most disgusting of Putin's "achievement".


>What about science? Space projects? As for cell phones... we don't produce them.

Should we? We are not a North Korea, we do not need to produce everything. There is an international division of labour. We produce oil, weapons, metals, etc and sell these goods to buy cars, mobile phones, etc.

>It lives on its resources and consumes import goods. Isn't it a shame for a country like Russia?

Again, please show me some reliable source of such an information.
First, we don't "produce" oil. We extract and consume it. We don't even produce many oil products, we import crude oil. We don't "produce" metals either. This is the use of our natural resources.
By the way, you are quite controversial. You have just pointed out that we don't have to produce everything but oil, metal and weapons. Why then are you asking me to refer you to the source of this information?

SVL
26-11-2004, 13:06
>Ratings and official statistics are very convinient tools to persuade everything goes smoothly.

You can use ICF or CIA information, just google a little.

> We don't even produce many oil products, we import crude oil.

Oh....I'm spending my time on a complete newbie. IMPORT oil?! Here?! And please name those oil products that we need to produce.

>We don't "produce" metals either. This is the use of our natural resources.

Hmm, tell me please how can I "extract" steel? Or aluminium?
Just dig the ground?:)

>By the way, you are quite controversial. You have just pointed out that we don't have to produce everything but oil, metal and weapons.

No, you just need to READ my comments: oil, metals, weapons, ETC. You can google for our GDP structure, too.

>Why then are you asking me to refer you to the source of this information?

I wanted to know YOUR source of information, which says that we are getting poorer, everything is ruined, etc.
Just one more question -do you have some basic education in economics?

SVL
26-11-2004, 13:15
>svl, you have some valid points because the west is frequently cast as altruistic and wonderful when in fact its actions are as banal and brutal as the next bloc.

My points are:
1) Some things are different here
2) Some actions of our government are good
3) Some actions of our government are bad
4) Screaming something like "everything is a failure here" is wrong.
5) Some things are complicated and you need time and knowledge to understand the idea behind them.

But you (both you and Crystal) don`t listen, you want to hear something simple, like "Yukos case ruined everything" or "Putin saved us all". Something that you can just support or refuse to support, yes or no, white or black. What`s behind that ? Western education model specifics or what?

Ned Kelly
26-11-2004, 14:00
Originally posted by SVL
you want to hear something simple, like "Yukos case ruined everything" or "Putin saved us all". Something that you can just support or refuse to support, yes or no, white or black. What`s behind that ? Western education model specifics or what?

you're a charlatan. keep chasing your tail in defence of holy mother russia.

Crystal
26-11-2004, 14:03
Sorry, i meant oil export, of course.
As for metals, what i was actually trying to point out ... compare any developed country and the range of goods they produce. The goods which production involves hi technologies, highly qualified specialists. Russia is falling far behind in many spheres (too many for a country claiming to be great or at least developed!) and it will be no easy task to catch up. Think how many talented scientists are forced to leave the country to continue their researches abroad because they cannot work here.
No, i don't have any degree in economics, and i'm not trying to give any sort of expert opinion. That's just my opinion based on what I read, hear from my friends who know more about these matters than me. As an ordinary consumer I have to face the constant petrol prices increase. It is in the country as rich in oil as Russia! :confused: Inflation is something that also cannot be hidden behind positive statistics figures. Many things... "prish'y s migalkami", militia abusing laws more than any ordinary citizen can think of and so on and so forth.
I'm not screaming everything is horrible in Russia. But yes, i do think that many changes are not for the better and Putin's politics is likely to result in very damaging consequences for economy and for the counry in general.

ife
26-11-2004, 14:17
Errr....democracy? In Georgia? Very interesting.
SVL, should have put "democracy" :)

My point was more - why should Russia care who comes to power in their neighboring states? Through their economic muscle they needn't fear any regime in countries like Georgia or Ukraine, while they could gain some brownie points from the west by backing "fair and free elections" in places like Ukraine, knowing that whoever becomes president they can still switch off the gas if they annoy Moscow too much.

Yes, they are just as entitled/unentitled to get involved in the internal affairs of other states as the U.S. or the EU, but they go about it in such a crude way that the West can't help but cry foul. The West, on the other hand, are more subtle but just as interfering (which I think was Ned's point).

Anyway, SVL you have restored some faith in me in the Russian people, because I really was beginning to think that Russians just voted for Putin for the sake of it and had no idea what he was doing. Maybe United Russia will actually have a party manifesto for the next election... :)

SVL
26-11-2004, 15:15
Originally posted by Ned Kelly
you're a charlatan. keep chasing your tail in defence of holy mother russia.

In Russian it sounds like "Sliv zaschitan", i.e. you`ve lost but do not want to recognize this, hence your attack on my person:)

Ned Kelly
26-11-2004, 15:28
you effectively accused me of being simplistic and ideological in my approach....because it suits your stereotype of a non-russian.

i didn't say anything about "yukos ruining" or "putin saving" or "everything being terrible" in russia.

i concede nothing, other than that your derzhavnik arguments are hackneyed.

SVL
26-11-2004, 15:33
>you effectively accused me of being simplistic and ideological in my approach....because it suits your stereotype of a non-russian.

Doctor, what are my other stereotypes?:) I`m not a bear with balalayka, I have non-russian friends and I don`t need stereotypes , since I know those people.

Ned Kelly
26-11-2004, 15:35
well, i gave you the benefit of the doubt.

how about you struggle to comprehend what someone says so you superimpose yukos/putin/everything is terrible in russia on them.

the point is the same.

kak
26-11-2004, 15:49
Ned,
i do believe that in some days/months you will never discuss politics on this forum again especially with any guy who:
1. do have a totally different opinion from yours
2. do not listen to arguments you'll give even if they are true.
3. will never agree you anyway.
I made it a thousand time here already, it's useless and make you upset for nothing. ;)
use your time for smthing else.