PDA

View Full Version : Vietnam and Afghanistan



quincy
10-07-2009, 14:52
although there seems to have been a lot of debate and protests at the time of the Vietnam war and many US policymakers have been saying it was a mistake, we cannot say there has been any debate about the Afghanistan campaign today.

In Britain, the BBC for example does not encourage any debate. Almost everyone interviewed tells us how the battle could be better 'won' instead of discussing if there are alternatives to war. The BBC (and much of the print media) are essentially pro-war

pjw
10-07-2009, 15:23
True true Quincy.

One of the reasons i stopped watching tv after 9/11. The media publicity was definitely on the side of Pro-war since then. Some channels worse than others but I found it all too much. Every night, red, white and blue brainwashing.

Of course there are sometimes documentaries that critically analyse stuff but on the whole I agree that the media is generally pro-war. And I find this sad and dangerous.

Scrat335
10-07-2009, 19:59
The people in the western media didn't get where they are by rocking any boats. They got where they are by looking in their superiors eye and figuring out what was expected of them and not deviating from that. These people don't bite the dicks that feed them.

Look at the financial crisis, there were people in the industry and the media who knew what was going on. If they opened their mouth they were told to STFU and if they sung out too loudly they didn't have a job anymore.

It's the same with the wars we are currently in, anyone with even a cursory knowledge of conflict knows the as long as we are occupying those countries they will never be stable. Anyone who speaks out against it takes grave risks with their career.

quincy
12-07-2009, 13:54
The people in the western media didn't get where they are by rocking any boats. They got where they are by looking in their superiors eye and figuring out what was expected of them and not deviating from that. These people don't bite the dicks that feed them.

Look at the financial crisis, there were people in the industry and the media who knew what was going on. If they opened their mouth they were told to STFU and if they sung out too loudly they didn't have a job anymore.

It's the same with the wars we are currently in, anyone with even a cursory knowledge of conflict knows the as long as we are occupying those countries they will never be stable. Anyone who speaks out against it takes grave risks with their career.

or the senior editors agree with current policy themselves?
how long will the campaign last? the BBC is not concerned with this question

Wodin
12-07-2009, 18:19
I'm not sure that that's true actually. While people like Sky tend to avoid "criticising" the Afghan war, the BBC often has anti-war individuals on (latest was Yvone Ridley this very morning) and often report on some peoples' views that we should leave the Afghans to sort our their own problems, even if that means being governed by people whose mindsets are still in the 13th Cent.

Having said that, the overall mainstream view is not anti war. I guess it's not pro war either. It's more "its a bad job which needs to be done", and that reflects mainstream public opinion.

Scrat335
12-07-2009, 20:05
It's more "its a bad job which needs to be done", and that reflects mainstream public opinion.

On my side of the pond it's an apathetic attitude resigned to the feeling nothing can be done about it or the radical and senseless fanaticism you get from all of the brainwashing. You also the the vast majority that are just scrabbling to survive.

Wodin
12-07-2009, 20:54
.... it's an apathetic attitude resigned to the feeling nothing can be done about it

That's probably a better description of what I meant to wite.

quincy
15-07-2009, 12:36
FT.com / Comment / Letters - Stem the losses in Afghanistan (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f2ad7104-70d5-11de-9717-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1)

Stem the losses in Afghanistan
Published: July 15 2009 03:00 | Last updated: July 15 2009 03:00

From Mr Richard Whittall.

Sir, Your editorial on Helmand (July 13) concludes that having lost 15 soldiers to the Taliban in the last week, withdrawal would be unthinkable. Surely, it is not just those who have tragically lost their lives that we should think about but those that will die. Far better to stem our losses now and save future widows and children the pain of bereavement than to carry on “just because we are there”.

At present the view of your newspaper and the government is that by taming the Taliban in Afghanistan we are keeping the streets of London safe from terrorism. But if this was truly the case then surely we should also be invading Somalia, Yemen and Pakistan as well, as we know that al-Qaeda is thriving in those nations too. Sadly, the war in Afghanistan seems in many ways similar to that in Vietnam. Then as now, the chief explanation for continuing the war was put down to woolly ideas about the danger of the “domino theory”.

Richard Whittall,
London SW7, UK

Wodin
15-07-2009, 14:02
Yes indeed Quincy. There is a body of people who oppose the war and argue, not unreasonably, that we should bring the boys back home, and not in caskets.

However, this is still not the majority view.

quincy
16-07-2009, 20:19
not quite! a recent survey quoted around puts UK support at 46% and opposition at 47%

DDT
16-07-2009, 21:35
I find it funny that some of you see the Media as "govt owned" when it comes to Afghanistan or Iraq but you can't see it as govt owned when it comes to Obama, who can do no wrong, while Bush could do no right.

Look, I don't think that there is a "conscious" conspiracy on the part of the US Media, it's more like just an agreement of minds, or the scum collecting in one spot if you prefer. Read: "A Slobbering Love Affair" or "Bias" by Bernard Goldberg.

But having said that, and getting on with my original point; I also believe that it is time to realize that the War In Afghanistan is basically Bullshit. We are not looking for Osama bin Laden. When was the last time that we heard about him? Even in the first year of the war there were unofficial reports from those in the CIA that we did not want to find him.

The first tip-off for me was the way Kabul was captured from the Taliban. Our troops were held back from taking Kabul for a whole week while waiting for the Northern Alliance to come in symbolically and be the first to enter the city. During this week all Taliban and anybody of importance left Kabul in plenty of time to escape an otherwise certain capture by our Armies. Any Skid Row bum could have seen it happening!

All we are really doing now is helping a second rate guy like Kahzai, who is not really a believer in a secular government or a friend, do his housework. The consolation prize is that we get to shoot a few ragheads who don't belong on Earth anyway, while providing a nice live training ground for our troops.

Carbo
17-07-2009, 13:33
The people in the western media didn't get where they are by rocking any boats. They got where they are by looking in their superiors eye and figuring out what was expected of them and not deviating from that. These people don't bite the dicks that feed them.

Look at the financial crisis, there were people in the industry and the media who knew what was going on. If they opened their mouth they were told to STFU and if they sung out too loudly they didn't have a job anymore.

It's the same with the wars we are currently in, anyone with even a cursory knowledge of conflict knows the as long as we are occupying those countries they will never be stable. Anyone who speaks out against it takes grave risks with their career.
Scrat, when was the last time you thought this through?

Has it ever occurred to you that every single thing you know about corruption in politics, political malfeasence, and criminal activities by those in power has come from journalists? Western journalists?

Let's see: Watergate, the Mai Lai massacre in Vietnam, the illegalities of the Iraq war, the activities at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib -- all, each and every one, committed by Americans, but then exposed and reported and (hopefully) punished by Americans.

Of course the media isn't perfect. Of course the majority gets suckered along by the party line. Of course there aren't enough Seymour Hershes, Christopher Hitchenses, Jane Mayers in the world, but to argue that because there aren't enough that all reporting is propaganda for the ruling elite and that all journalists figure "out what was expected of them and not deviating from that" is simply incorrect.

For example, you argue that "there were people in the industry and the media who knew what was going on [about the financial crisis]. If they opened their mouth they were told to STFU and if they sung out too loudly they didn't have a job anymore," but this is completely mistaken.

Peter Schiff predicted the crisis, and was given air time. Krugman had been saying for years through his NY Times column that the Bush policies would lead to disaster, and that he was increasingly concerned about the housing bubble.

Of course there were plenty who were trumpeting the Bush economic miracle, especially on Fox, which went as far as to give Rupert Murdoch airtime so he could, in a revoltingly obsequious interview, tell Fox viewers how fcuking awesome the economy was, but to argue that there were plenty who knew, but noone said, is plain wrong. Equally, Krugman and Schiff were both ridiculed by the GOP attack dogs, but they weren’t shot, they didn’t lose their jobs, and now they’ve been proved correct.

Instead of listening to your conspiracy-obsessed, pathologically disestablishmentarian Pacific North West, Che-Guevara-poster-in-the-bedroom friends, saying "yeah, dude" and then repeating it here without a second thought, try thinking about what you’re saying, eh? It might not sound as cool, but it would make for better debate.

Scrat335
18-07-2009, 05:14
I'll get back later, I can't waste pool time. When you get sun in the PNW you have to take advantage of it.

Scrat335
18-07-2009, 20:32
Scrat, when was the last time you thought this through

Carbo when was the last time YOU thought this through?

Schiff and Krugman are just 2 voices in the wilderness. You bring to my attention what happened 30-40 years ago but you skip over what has happened in the last 10 years and more recently. During the Bush administration the whitehouse press corp was owned like a pack of prison biotches. The people who had the best opportunity to hold the likes of Darth Cheneys and Rummys feet to the fire did little if anything.

These 2 wars which are now essentially bleeding us dry were foisted upon us with lies. I blame the press for that. They aren't doing their job to MY standards. They don't give ME the information that I need.

I'm not going to give them a free pass just because they made a few mistakes, they FAILED in their mission. The media has failed us all.


Instead of listening to your conspiracy-obsessed, pathologically disestablishmentarian Pacific North West, Che-Guevara-poster-in-the-bedroom friends, saying "yeah, dude" and then repeating it here without a second thought, try thinking about what you’re saying, eh? It might not sound as cool, but it would make for better debate.

You'd be surprised, most of my friends hate Che, I don't particularly care about him because he was just another politician. As for what I have said above I think that in a general sense is very true. My attitude towards the "establishment" comes from what I see around me and may yet be a victim of. That's another subject.


In Britain, the BBC for example does not encourage any debate. Almost everyone interviewed tells us how the battle could be better 'won' instead of discussing if there are alternatives to war. The BBC (and much of the print media) are essentially pro-war

Don't butter the BS for me Carbo. Where I live people know this war on terror is hurting us, we know the system we live in is corrupt from the top to the bottom with little redeeming value in it. Maybe you've been away too long.

Russian Lad
18-07-2009, 23:30
Schiff and Krugman are just 2 voices in the wilderness. You bring to my attention what happened 30-40 years ago but you skip over what has happened in the last 10 years and more recently. During the Bush administration the whitehouse press corp was owned like a pack of prison biotches. The people who had the best opportunity to hold the likes of Darth Cheneys and Rummys feet to the fire did little if anything.

These 2 wars which are now essentially bleeding us dry were foisted upon us with lies. I blame the press for that. They aren't doing their job to MY standards. They don't give ME the information that I need.

I'm not going to give them a free pass just because they made a few mistakes, they FAILED in their mission. The media has failed us all.


I cannot agree more. Carbo, the same lousy tactics are applied by the Russian government here - you let a few people and a few inferior newspapers do some anti-government talking, with roughly 95% of the media being extremely pro-government, and you can direct the citizens anywhere at your wish - to prosperity, to misery, to slaughter, - very much like the sheep.

Scrat335
19-07-2009, 02:09
That's exactly how it works RL. Baffle them with BS and all will be well.

Carbos argument is irrelevant, it doesn't matter what the people say, what matters is what the people are told and the means of control overall.

Did you say something about a dog and a foodbowl?

I bet he never thought through the politics money and media relationship either.

quincy
19-07-2009, 18:02
it doesn't matter what the people say, what matters is what the people are told and the means of control overall.

.

very true
in a 'democracy' just as in a 'dictatorship', foreign policy is controlled by a small elite which includes media bosses
The FT's editor was on hand during BBC's Question Time, arguing even more forcefully than the government in favour of the Afghan campaign

Scrat335
19-07-2009, 19:25
Here you are. I don't know if she is absolutely correct about all of it but she sure is close.

Media networks inaccessible to independent content – journalist | Top Stories from 2009-07-19 | RT (http://www.russiatoday.com/Top_News/2009-07-19/Media_networks_inaccessible_to_independent_content___journalist.html)

Carbo
19-07-2009, 23:22
God almighty, there are some dullards here.

This forum has some excellent posters, but others who are either hamstrung by ideological beliefs that prevent them from seeing anything objectively, or else utterly incapable of looking at an argument beyond the superficial. For the latter group, a nuanced, neither black nor white argument seemingly impossible to comprehend.

Scrat said that ALL the western media was just propaganda, basically, and I said that this is a ridiculous argument not because it's untrue, but because it is looking at evidence and taking that to a conclusion somewhere around the nth degree -- its absolute. My point is that while there are some journalists and media figures, even a majority, who peddle the 'party line', to say that the whole media operates that way is preposterous. For instance, I wrote:


Of course the media isn't perfect. Of course the majority gets suckered along by the party line. Of course there aren't enough Seymour Hershes, Christopher Hitchenses, Jane Mayers in the world, but to argue that because there aren't enough that all reporting is propaganda for the ruling elite and that all journalists figure "out what was expected of them and not deviating from that" is simply incorrect.

Yet, unable to see this pretty simple argument, because if fell somewhere below the "black or white, right or wrong" surface level, Scrat just repeated his initial argument, much to the mooing appreciation of the usual bovine chorus.

I'll repeat it: there is much poor reporting, and not enough good reporting. I agree. But to extrapolate that to say that the whole media is rotten, or that there's some vast conspiracy to brainwash the masses is stupid.

quincy
21-07-2009, 10:44
YouTube - "Operation in Afghanistan is rooted in Israel" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&feature=fvhl&v=Ddgm0ScSnx4)

Judge
21-07-2009, 11:58
I'll repeat it: there is much poor reporting, and not enough good reporting. I agree. But to extrapolate that to say that the whole media is rotten, or that there's some vast conspiracy to brainwash the masses is stupid.

There is some truth in a ' conspiracy to brainwash the masses'
The Associated Press feeds news to over 1,700 newspapers and 5,000 TV and radio outlets.Reuters is another news service that feeds us the news.These two companies are owned by the same 'Corporation'....

Judge
27-07-2009, 15:11
Back to the media. I have always found this quote by David Rockefeller interesting.


“… it would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government …”
- David Rockefeller in Baden-Baden, Germany 1991, Bilderberg meeeting thanking major media for keeping secret for decades the movement of the prophetic one world government.

Many of the owners of top american newspapers take part in the Bilderberg meetings.

Qdos
27-07-2009, 15:29
That's exactly how it works RL. Baffle them with BS and all will be well.

As in the Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, precisely true. Ok different regime, but the goals were more or less the same, a hyped-up reason to invade and intervene forcefully in a nation where the government didn't meet with US approval.

However both the UK and the US should heed the words of Putin on the Afghanistan front when he reportedly stated 'that Afghanistan is where superpowers go in order to be embarrassed...'

Those words are proving ever more applicable to the allies now as they did to the Russian forces during their prior what, nine years or so, of being in Afghanistan.

Judge
27-07-2009, 15:47
However both the UK and the US should heed the words of Putin on the Afghanistan front when he reportedly stated[I] 'that Afghanistan is where superpowers go in order to be embarrassed...

Russia just opened up its airspace to the US.:11215:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/04/world/europe/04russia.html

Qdos
27-07-2009, 16:12
Russia just opened up its airspace to the US.:11215:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/04/world/europe/04russia.html

No sign of any B52's around this part of the Volga basin, but it makes me wonder what backroom deals are being done between Moscow and Obama in the light of the Kygryz airbase ding-dong of recent... :devil:

Judge
27-07-2009, 16:32
No sign of any B52's around this part of the Volga basin, but it makes me wonder what backroom deals are being done between Moscow and Obama in the light of the Kygryz airbase ding-dong of recent... :devil:

The US missile defence in Poland and Czech Republic might have something to do with it.The russian leaders might have told the US to turn a blind eye when it comes to Georgia and Ukraine.
Who knows, but Russia seems to be ok with the US in Afghanistan.

Kvartiraokhotnik
27-07-2009, 17:15
But to extrapolate that to say that the whole media is rotten, or that there's some vast conspiracy to brainwash the masses is stupid.

We must live on different planets. Lets use some historical examples of a small clique controlling the distribution of information. For example, US, or UK or Nazi Germany or Soviet Union. Did a small elite control the content of newspapers/TV/radio broadcasts during world war 2? Undoubtedly YES. And after world war 2? Yes, again. Before?? Er.... Yes. Nowadays? .....

All governments and military powers attempt to control their media - they always have, and they always will.

Russian Lad
27-07-2009, 18:25
God almighty, there are some dullards here.

This forum has some excellent posters, but others who are either hamstrung by ideological beliefs that prevent them from seeing anything objectively, or else utterly incapable of looking at an argument beyond the superficial.

Come on, Carbo, surely you can do better than hurling insults at your opponents, it is a defeatist strategy by default.
Like I said, there are probably about 5% of the media that are not controlled by anybody financially, but they are left to survive only to serve as a smokescreen.
I had some doubts, but they were dissipated last year, rather brutally, by the Western media which did not notice the Georgian invasion until the Russians interfered. I was appalled at this reaction, all my illusions disappeared in August, 2008. See, there is even a precise date. Most of the Western media are like dogs that bark at command and stand still until the master says: "Fetch!".
P.S. Your reaction only shows that your work is media-related.

Kvartiraokhotnik
27-07-2009, 22:46
Come on, Carbo, surely you can do better than hurling insults at your opponents, it is a defeatist strategy by default.
Like I said, there are probably about 5% of the media that are not controlled by anybody financially, but they are left to survive only to serve as a smokescreen.
I had some doubts, but they were dissipated last year, rather brutally, by the Western media which did not notice the Georgian invasion until the Russians interfered. I was appalled at this reaction, all my illusions disappeared in August, 2008. See, there is even a precise date. Most of the Western media are like dogs that bark at command and stand still until the master says: "Fetch!".
P.S. Your reaction only shows that your work is media-related.

My illusions disappeared after they lied about 2 gulf wars, a war in Afghanistan, 911, bird flu, swine flu, BSE, the IRA, the war in Kosovo, and the EU. Nothing in the paper is true. If it is true, then its something the editors missed.

is4fun
27-07-2009, 23:06
God almighty, there are some dullards here.

This forum has some excellent posters, but others who are either hamstrung by ideological beliefs that prevent them from seeing anything objectively, or else utterly incapable of looking at an argument beyond the superficial. For the latter group, a nuanced, neither black nor white argument seemingly impossible to comprehend.

Scrat said that ALL the western media was just propaganda, basically, and I said that this is a ridiculous argument not because it's untrue, but because it is looking at evidence and taking that to a conclusion somewhere around the nth degree -- its absolute. My point is that while there are some journalists and media figures, even a majority, who peddle the 'party line', to say that the whole media operates that way is preposterous. For instance, I wrote:



Yet, unable to see this pretty simple argument, because if fell somewhere below the "black or white, right or wrong" surface level, Scrat just repeated his initial argument, much to the mooing appreciation of the usual bovine chorus.

I'll repeat it: there is much poor reporting, and not enough good reporting. I agree. But to extrapolate that to say that the whole media is rotten, or that there's some vast conspiracy to brainwash the masses is stupid.

First and foremost; the only “excellent” posters on this site are those that provide real and pertinent information to those foreigners that need information about living or wish to live in Russia; or to those Russians who wish to know more about the West and/or Western bureaucratic policies for whatever reason. By this, I mean those who seek needed information that may help them either survive or overcome some existing problems within the country they wish to know more about. Much of the information needed to navigate in this country can be found here if one was to seriously look, providing another F*ck –up doesn’t happen as it did a few years back…

Many people on this site are not academics by profession thus objectivity will never play a part in a subjective discussion as their propensity to display bravado overrides common sense (Nationalistic bravado in this case). This is typical of most forums outside of an academic environment where strict rules of academic engagement are never defined. You need not be surprised Carbo. I mean really, you are discussing issues with someone who exposed himself as an anti-Semite. Not self proclaimed mind you, however, an anti-Semite as defined by the norms we live by in this day and age and the norms most have learned are absolutely unacceptable today. Here at Expay.ru, basic rules are written so as not to cross boundaries that would offend; it does not go further than swearing, name calling and whatnot.
If there may be any consolation to your angst regarding the anti-Semite, one may consider Kübler-Ross’ model of the five stages of grief as a fitting explanation on how events will eventually come to pass: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and finally Acceptance. Providing of course he is not on the State’s payroll for now anyway 

As for the media? There is a huge difference by those countries who manipulate an independent media within the bounds of laws written for their independence from those countries that own and monopolize them. North Korea, Russia, and Iran are great examples and I am sure even Scrat would agree, unless of course he is planning to move to these wonderfully free societies and raise a family rather than live in beautiful Seattle.

Kvartiraokhotnik
27-07-2009, 23:21
First and foremost; the only “excellent” posters on this site are those that provide real and pertinent information to those foreigners that need information about living or wish to live in Russia; or to those Russians who wish to know more about the West and/or Western bureaucratic policies for whatever reason. By this, I mean those who seek needed information that may help them either survive or overcome some existing problems within the country they wish to know more about. Much of the information needed to navigate in this country can be found here if one was to seriously look, providing another F*ck –up doesn’t happen as it did a few years back…

Many people on this site are not academics by profession thus objectivity will never play a part in a subjective discussion as their propensity to display bravado overrides common sense (Nationalistic bravado in this case). This is typical of most forums outside of an academic environment where strict rules of academic engagement are never defined. You need not be surprised Carbo. I mean really, you are discussing issues with someone who exposed himself as an anti-Semite. Not self proclaimed mind you, however, an anti-Semite as defined by the norms we live by in this day and age and the norms most have learned are absolutely unacceptable today. Here at Expay.ru, basic rules are written so as not to cross boundaries that would offend; it does not go further than swearing, name calling and whatnot.
If there may be any consolation to your angst regarding the anti-Semite, one may consider Kübler-Ross’ model of the five stages of grief as a fitting explanation on how events will eventually come to pass: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and finally Acceptance. Providing of course he is not on the State’s payroll for now anyway 

As for the media? There is a huge difference by those countries who manipulate an independent media within the bounds of laws written for their independence from those countries that own and monopolize them. North Korea, Russia, and Iran are great examples and I am sure even Scrat would agree, unless of course he is planning to move to these wonderfully free societies and raise a family rather than live in beautiful Seattle.

I sense a burning desire from someone here to start a new thread, entitled ''anti semitism on expat.ru....''

by the way, many of us here (including yourself, by the looks of your profile) have decided to start a life in ''the wonderfully free society'' that is Russia. I certainly prefer it here, and thats why i'm here.

Bels
27-07-2009, 23:29
Back to the difference of Afghanistan and Vietnam. Vietnam was an American war. There are a high percentage of troops in Afghanistan of whom are not American. Let's not forget the high percentage of British forces in Afghanistan who were not in the Vietnam war. This is a United Nations War, and Afghanistan has a long history of western confrontation.

The involvement with the USA as far as I can remember was to find Binladen and defeat terrorism. Have we done it yet, or do we have a lot more work to do?

I often wonder why Britain puts in so much greater investment in this United per capita as against the Americans for this United Nations fight. Why do we spend more than the Americans in comparison to the size of our country. It's a helluva lot of many which could go elsewhere.

And the strange thing is our Army wants even more youth, and are currently marketing our schools and colleges toget even more to join the forces. About 35% of forces in UN are British. Isn't that amazing, yet everybody continues to yak about USA.

is4fun
27-07-2009, 23:43
I sense a burning desire from someone here to start a new thread, entitled ''anti semitism on expat.ru....''

by the way, many of us here (including yourself, by the looks of your profile) have decided to start a life in ''the wonderfully free society'' that is Russia. I certainly prefer it here, and thats why i'm here.

I do not intend to troll this thread. You start one and I will participate.

Do as thou wilt for that shall be the law. :) enjoy!

Qdos
27-07-2009, 23:51
I sense a burning desire from someone here to start a new thread, entitled ''anti semitism on expat.ru....''

As if we've not had enough threads in current affairs this year alone about Hamas, the Gaza Strip and West Bank issues. Comparisons between Hitler and Stalin, who killed the most Jews, etc.

I'm sure Fenrir, and DDT if he's still reading the posts here, will be itching to participate in yet another discussion about Israel and their ability for waging war or snatching land, then returning it, and so on and so forth :)

Bels
27-07-2009, 23:52
I do not intend to troll this thread. You start one and I will participate.

Do as thou wilt for that shall be the law. :) enjoy!

I have travelled the world and what I told my then girlfriend and now wife, I will tell you now. The last place on earth I want to come to is Russia, and now I am here with my wife and two children. Not due to politics or the way things are her, but purely for love. So if i wish to do so , I can moan and groan about here if I wish to do so. But I don't , I tatake it all in humour. The Russian way I believe.

So take it easy all, and enjoy your life.

is4fun
28-07-2009, 00:10
Back to the difference of Afghanistan and Vietnam. Vietnam was an American war. There are a high percentage of troops in Afghanistan of whom are not American. Let's not forget the high percentage of British forces in Afghanistan who were not in the Vietnam war. This is a United Nations War, and Afghanistan has a long history of western confrontation.

The involvement with the USA as far as I can remember was to find Binladen and defeat terrorism. Have we done it yet, or do we have a lot more work to do?

I often wonder why Britain puts in so much greater investment in this United per capita as against the Americans for this United Nations fight. Why do we spend more than the Americans in comparison to the size of our country. It's a helluva lot of many which could go elsewhere.

And the strange thing is our Army wants even more youth, and are currently marketing our schools and colleges toget even more to join the forces. About 35% of forces in UN are British. Isn't that amazing, yet everybody continues to yak about USA.

I feel the US's participation after the defeat of the Taliban was to keep Afghanistan more or less stable, however, the US got themselves into a pickle with Iraq and over extended themselves. No doubt the British have contributed immensely to both Afghanistan and Iraq but I also feel their participation had a great deal to do with England's territorial security (proper) as many immigrants in England had come from Muslim states and commerce between many of these countries were in the interest of Britain. Britain , I feel will always support Middle Eastern stability even if to defy Israel. Hey, I saw the movie Lawrence of Arabia. Divide and rule, right?

Bels
28-07-2009, 00:18
Love it !!! :) Even though I don't totally agree. It must have something with me watching IN THE LOOP at the moment :) You really should watch it, if you haven,t seen it. And yes I have seen Lawrence of Arabia on youtube.


I feel the US's participation after the defeat of the Taliban was to keep Afghanistan more or less stable, however, the US got themselves into a pickle with Iraq and over extended themselves. No doubt the British have contributed immensely to both Afghanistan and Iraq but I also feel their participation had a great deal to do with England's territorial security (proper) as many immigrants in England had come from Muslim states and commerce between many of these countries were in the interest of Britain. Britain , I feel will always support Middle Eastern stability even if to defy Israel. Hey, I saw the movie Lawrence of Arabia. Divide and rule, right?

Qdos
28-07-2009, 00:49
I feel the US's participation after the defeat of the Taliban was to keep Afghanistan more or less stable, however, the US got themselves into a pickle...

The Taliban have been defeated? :9456:

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, or otherwise why would we still have been receiving news of their activities in northern Pakistan recently, nevermind various provinces of Afghanistan...

quincy
28-07-2009, 10:22
I have travelled the world and what I told my then girlfriend and now wife, I will tell you now. The last place on earth I want to come to is Russia, and now I am here with my wife and two children. Not due to politics or the way things are her, but purely for love. So if i wish to do so , I can moan and groan about here if I wish to do so. But I don't , I tatake it all in humour. The Russian way I believe.

So take it easy all, and enjoy your life.

not exactly the subject of this thread, but you probably have less to complain about Russia than many Russians! do you think you would have a better life if you moved to Britain?

Russian Lad
28-07-2009, 10:29
The last place on earth I want to come to is Russia

Zimbabwe is better, you ponder?:)

quincy
28-07-2009, 10:31
I feel the US's participation after the defeat of the Taliban was to keep Afghanistan more or less stable, however, the US got themselves into a pickle with Iraq and over extended themselves. No doubt the British have contributed immensely to both Afghanistan and Iraq but I also feel their participation had a great deal to do with England's territorial security (proper) as many immigrants in England had come from Muslim states and commerce between many of these countries were in the interest of Britain. Britain , I feel will always support Middle Eastern stability even if to defy Israel. Hey, I saw the movie Lawrence of Arabia. Divide and rule, right?


the Taliban were in Afghanistan for ten years or more before the 2001 hijackings. No-one seemed interested in them for that time. some say they were helped by successive governments in Pakistan going back to the 1980s to oppose the Soviet union. Was an invasion of Afghanistan absolutely necessary ? this has never been debated in the mainstream media. somewhere around 10,000 Afghans are said to have died in the initial invasion and probably many more since then. Newspapers and TV are not interested in the Afghan dead

Bels
28-07-2009, 10:39
Zimbabwe is better, you ponder?:)

Excuse the expression. Of course there must be somewhere worse, it's just that I can't think of one.

Qdos
28-07-2009, 10:44
Zimbabwe is probably only marginally worse then North Korea... :jester:

Don't fancy Afghanistan myself, although I've heard that Vietnam ain't such a terrible place these days for non-US tourists.

is4fun
28-07-2009, 23:00
The Taliban have been defeated? :9456:

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate, or otherwise why would we still have been receiving news of their activities in northern Pakistan recently, nevermind various provinces of Afghanistan...

As a state, of coarse they have been. Please tell where there is a Taliban government in the world this day and age.

is4fun
28-07-2009, 23:03
the Taliban were in Afghanistan for ten years or more before the 2001 hijackings. No-one seemed interested in them for that time. some say they were helped by successive governments in Pakistan going back to the 1980s to oppose the Soviet union. Was an invasion of Afghanistan absolutely necessary ? this has never been debated in the mainstream media. somewhere around 10,000 Afghans are said to have died in the initial invasion and probably many more since then. Newspapers and TV are not interested in the Afghan dead

This is so untrue. Clinton's government remotely bombed camps in Afghanistan prior to 911.

is4fun
28-07-2009, 23:05
Zimbabwe is probably only marginally worse then North Korea... :jester:

Don't fancy Afghanistan myself, although I've heard that Vietnam ain't such a terrible place these days for non-US tourists.

Zimbabwe is not marginal to NK. No-one worships Mugabe as a God.

Russian Lad
29-07-2009, 03:46
Zimbabwe is not marginal to NK. No-one worships Mugabe as a God.


But perhaps walking the streets of NK is much safer at night. And how about AIDS?

GaNozri
29-07-2009, 04:20
I say, move all the stalinist Russian commies to North Korea. By force of course!
Then move all the North Koreans, who aren't as brainwashed as their Russian comrades to Russia. Create Koreatowns. IMO, that would solve the NK problem, and some of Russia's problems.

quincy
29-07-2009, 09:42
This is so untrue. Clinton's government remotely bombed camps in Afghanistan prior to 911.

yes towards the end of his term Clinton sent some missiles into Afghanistan and Sudan, but for the most part people had not heard of the Taliban even though they had been in power for 10 or more years. They were seen as more or less ok for a large part of that time

Kvartiraokhotnik
29-07-2009, 09:58
I say, move all the stalinist Russian commies to North Korea. By force of course!
Then move all the North Koreans, who aren't as brainwashed as their Russian comrades to Russia. Create Koreatowns. IMO, that would solve the NK problem, and some of Russia's problems.

An Ideal solution :idea:

Qdos
29-07-2009, 10:23
But no Bouffé haircuts please... :10475:

Scrat335
29-07-2009, 21:25
I'll repeat it: there is much poor reporting, and not enough good reporting. I agree. But to extrapolate that to say that the whole media is rotten, or that there's some vast conspiracy to brainwash the masses is stupid.

When in the f@#k did I say the whole media was rotten? I think you might be over the top in your reaction.

You know what life here in the US is like, people are away from home for 10 even 14 hours a day at work doing chores you name it. When in the hell does your average citizen have the time sit down and find your little voices in the wilderness and read and comprehend what is being said to them?

This is a fact Carbo, at the grass roots level people (the people who are supposed to make the decisions in this country:rofl:) don't have the time, the will or the education to keep themselves informed. What they go by is the most basic of concepts. Words like terrorism, murder, bomb whatever they hear in the background of their daily routine of slavery.

That's what peoples minds react to. That small tiny bit of information found in the soundbite on the evening news coming out of the talking heads mouth across the room.

How in the hell do you think the Bush admin got as far as they did? Most Americans KNEW something was wrong with the picture and with the story but few did anything about it.

Why was that Carbo?

It's because people largely work by the LCD, and leave their masters to make the decisions for them.

is4fun
30-07-2009, 23:19
When in the f@#k did I say the whole media was rotten? I think you might be over the top in your reaction.

You know what life here in the US is like, people are away from home for 10 even 14 hours a day at work doing chores you name it. When in the hell does your average citizen have the time sit down and find your little voices in the wilderness and read and comprehend what is being said to them?

This is a fact Carbo, at the grass roots level people (the people who are supposed to make the decisions in this country:rofl:) don't have the time, the will or the education to keep themselves informed. What they go by is the most basic of concepts. Words like terrorism, murder, bomb whatever they hear in the background of their daily routine of slavery.

That's what peoples minds react to. That small tiny bit of information found in the soundbite on the evening news coming out of the talking heads mouth across the room.

How in the hell do you think the Bush admin got as far as they did? Most Americans KNEW something was wrong with the picture and with the story but few did anything about it.

Why was that Carbo?

It's because people largely work by the LCD, and leave their masters to make the decisions for them.

You are partly correct Scratman. Wake up in the morning and watch a few minutes of Kiro Eye Witness News (Eye Witness News – gotta love that marketing LOL Great traffic reports! I was from Vancouver so I know Kiro ) and pretend to be informed about the worlds events and thus start to realize something is definitely wrong with the system as no time can be allocated to form a definitive or conclusive opinion on the day’s events because one must get to work, make a living and be a respectable contributor to one’s community.

Please do not feel I am not playing with you. You are contributing to this site, though some of your ideas seem to clash with that of others. Big deal. You have your ideas as the rest of us, respectfully, even though most are likely ignored as are mine. I read your posts and find most clash with my ideals but, I do read them. Why? Can’t say for sure but like to read other people’s opinions.

Keep up the good work, but please, without the expletives. Expletives, for me anyway, seem to denote a personal characteristic that may tend to offend someone at first sight. Carbo seems to be a level headed lad, a financial guy like me long ago. Next time I’m in Seattle we should have a few brewskies.  BTW boat races on this weekend?

Scrat335
31-07-2009, 19:22
Yeah I think they have the on the lake this weekend at Sea Fair along with the Blue Angels. I'm going to be working on my truck though. I only went to SF once or twice since I have been here. Too much of a hassle with the crowds and all.


though some of your ideas seem to clash with that of others.

Ideas from people always clash, that's the way it is. I disagree with a lot of things DDT puts up but then I agree with some things he says. Same with Carbo, same with anyone else. I do hope my ideas clash at times, what's the point in debating if everyone agrees? That's how one group decides to kill another.

Scrat335
31-07-2009, 20:31
Acouple of notes on Iraq. I really wonder just what we have accomplished there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/31/world/middleeast/31adviser.html?th&emc=th

Especially in light of the ongoing violence. I also heard that some soldiers died a few days ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/01/world/middleeast/01iraq.html?hp