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Leo
09-09-2003, 23:56
What English word/phrase do you suggest for the Russian noun ?

MDW
10-09-2003, 01:14
an http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/ customer

Leo
10-09-2003, 12:34
I appreciate your sense of humor. .

Allenson
10-09-2003, 15:37
Intellectual would be the banal answer - The word obviously has different connotations for different people, so there could be better words depending on your point of view ;)

Leo
13-09-2003, 02:35
Thanks Allenson, I never heard this one before - however banal it may be:-)

palefire
17-09-2003, 12:14
It's not a banal answer, it's just completely wrong - the meanings of the words words intellectual ( in Russian) and have nothing in common with each other.

means roughly "well brought-up", "well-mannered", "refined" - since the revolution, Russia has never had the same notions of class that we have in England, but if you were to put the word in an English context, you would have to introduce concepts like "posh" (which has no close equivalent in Russian) and "upper middle-class".

allice
17-09-2003, 12:35
is not someone who could be described as 'posh'
i believe the word has meaning in historical context only:
ie as opposed to

palefire
17-09-2003, 13:37
But we're talking about modern usage, not philology. And if you're opposing the word with "worker" or "peasant", then that's exactly what "posh" in its primary sense denotes - although I wasn't claiming that the usage of the two words is the same at all, just that the concepts are related.

allice
17-09-2003, 13:46
the point I was trying to make, palefire,
is that in modern-day Russiat there is no social class that can be described as precisely because of the fact that our society seems to be becoming like one in say EU contries
(which of course are far from being alike, so better use term western I guess)

allice
17-09-2003, 14:14
hey palefire, keep the thread going -- i enjoy a conversation that requires a brain usage once in while:p

allice
17-09-2003, 14:25
Originally posted by Fa-Q
Guess your grey matter is recovering from all that alchohol?!

Fa-Q, completely recovered and ready for action!!
Come to think of it actually... I feel an urge to learn something new.. Someone teach me something new! I demand! or at least stick to the topic on this thread...:) ;) :D

palefire
17-09-2003, 16:12
Hi,

Sorry for not continuing the thread, I got distracted with something (equally un-work-related). I didn't your point about Russia becoming more like EU countries because of having no ...?

To go back to the initial question, most words don't have exact translations, especially ones which rely on concepts/prejudices which are particular to their cultures. So you often have to use a phrase to translate these words. But we've probably more or less exhausted this theme.

What kind of new thing do you want to know? I've been amassing all sorts of unconnected miscellaneous facts recently, so I'd be happy to help. For example, did you know that King Leopold II of Belgium, a powerless aristocrat with no state backing, managed towards the end of the 19th century to become sole dictator of the Congo, with no international supervision, no constitution, and no resistance from rival powers, and within less than two decades caused the deaths of two thirds of the population (dropping from 30 to 8 million) through brutality and massacre unrivalled even by Stalin or Hitler? Is the fact that not many people know about this related to the fact that they were all black? Perhaps I should have started this as a new thread, but there's no history section.

allice
17-09-2003, 16:19
Well I was thinking more like smth I could use in real life...

re my point:

I am saying that there is no one who could be described as in our time in Russia, the word meaning the same thing it did in soviet times... because the whole is different.. there:)

palefire
17-09-2003, 16:24
Well, there are some nasty details, like the chopping off of hands of entire communities who couldn't fulfil Leopold's quotas for rubber export, but there's no need to go into too much detail about that. Anyway, I think someone else shoud tell us something new.

palefire
17-09-2003, 16:32
I see what you mean. But societies always change, and words as often as not outlive these changes - they just emerge in a slightly modified form. If the word hasn't already lost its connotations relating to the Soviet social hierachy, I'm sure it will eventually, and it will just be equivalent to the English phrases I mentioned.

allice
17-09-2003, 16:38
silly question:

? -- , because i am in no way well-mannered or posh

Ledka
17-09-2003, 16:43
palefire,

please call me asap.... why don't u read PM? U seem to be busy here... hope u'll notice my message in this folder!!! I need to talk to u. Call me at work pls.

palefire
17-09-2003, 16:46
I think if I said I was, it would only be a reflection of how I want other people to view me. So the answer is I have no idea. There are more important qualities than .

palefire
17-09-2003, 16:52
ask me another silly question...

allice
17-09-2003, 16:54
it's your turn now :)

btw what are those qualities?

palefire
17-09-2003, 17:06
Hmm.. I'll let you know when I've thought of a silly question.

Important qualities? I didn't have any in mind - it's easier to talk about the lack of negative qualities, obvious things like greed, pride, vanity etc. - the person who sits opposite me has the extremely bad quality of not being ashamed to have personal telephone conversations in full earshot of everyone sitting around her. She also has an affectedly flirtatious, childish voice which drives me insane. Open-mindedness is an extremely good quality which very few people have (although a lot of people think they do). Inquisitiveness is another, but people tend to more or less lose that at the age of about 10.

allice
17-09-2003, 17:42
still haven't thought of a silly question to ask?:(

somehow I often end up with people with negative qualities like vanity
but who wants perfect friends or lovers -- wouldn't it be a bore?

palefire
17-09-2003, 17:58
Well, I suppose vanity in some forms isn't the worst negative quality if it's kept more or less under control - for example, I don't think there's anything wrong with girls trying to look prettier than they really are.

Still haven't thought of a silly question. I'm obviously not very good at this.

palefire
17-09-2003, 17:59
ok, here's one: why do you have two Ls?

allice
17-09-2003, 18:06
this is my old ICQ nick -- the thing is banned here in office
honestly I don't know why....
what's palefire?

palefire
17-09-2003, 18:11
It's the title of a book. It's also mentioned in a Shakespeare quote, but that's not why I chose it.

palefire
17-09-2003, 18:12
ICQ is banned here too, so is chat and internet e-mail. I'm surprised they haven't blocked the Expat site as well.

allice
17-09-2003, 18:16
Originally posted by palefire
It's the title of a book. It's also mentioned in a Shakespeare quote, but that's not why I chose it.

But that's precisely my question.. I know it's a title.. but what does it say about the person?

If they ban expat.ru I'll have to work all day long:(

allice
17-09-2003, 18:17
and internet e-mail?????!!
Jesus, who do you work for?:eek:

palefire
17-09-2003, 18:23
I don't think it says anything about the person. Except that it might give anyone who happens to have read that book some idea about my reading tastes, which in turn might suggest something about me, but not much.

Banning the Expat site wouldn't be a sufficient measure to make me work all day. They would have to employ much more drastic techniques like violence and coercion.

palefire
17-09-2003, 18:26
The organisation I work for is quite large - I can't help suspecting that there's someone in this building reading what I've written, and that they'll come up to me in the canteen tomorrow and ask me why I wrote those nasty comments about the nameless individual who sits opposite me. So I'm going to keep silent to avoid incriminating myself.

allice
17-09-2003, 18:26
what do you do, may I ask? PM if want? and I sorta suspect we've met...
have we? wanna get my facts straight on this one:D

palefire
17-09-2003, 18:29
Yes we have, you were sitting between me between me and Twaj at the Boarhouse a few weeks ago.

allice
17-09-2003, 18:32
ok good
apart from my PM to of 2 secs ago
don't use people's names on site please

palefire
17-09-2003, 18:34
why the secrecy?

allice
17-09-2003, 18:39
it's not secrecy, it's privacy:p

Leo
17-09-2003, 21:04
I'm happy guys that you felt so much at home in my thread and thanks for lots of useful info:-)

palefire
18-09-2003, 10:22
You're welcome.

waxwing
20-09-2003, 01:22
now why would anyone want to use a stupid username like PaleFire... :D

palefire
22-09-2003, 19:39
I was the shadow of the waxwing slain
By the false azure in the windowpane...


...A dark Vanessa with a crimson band
Wheels in the low sun, settles on the sand
And shows its ink-blue wingtips flecked with white.
And through the flowing shade and ebbing light
A man, unheedful of the butterfly -
Some neighbor's garderner, I guess - goes by
Trundling an empty barrow up the lane...

Rainhawk
23-09-2003, 16:38
I don't know whether this question is still interesting to anyone. but I would render that word as 'cultured'.

To me, this is what it means. It conveys the ideas of mental intelligence, social sympathy, good manners and general education.

Leo
24-09-2003, 00:57
Originally posted by Rainhawk
I don't know whether this question is still interesting to anyone. but I would render that word as 'cultured'.

To me, this is what it means. It conveys the ideas of mental intelligence, social sympathy, good manners and general education.

Thanks, RH, your answer is the same I got from one former US ambassador to Georgia who speaks perfect Russian, I too find it quite accurate.

Allenson
27-09-2003, 11:42
Originally posted by palefire
It's not a banal answer, it's just completely wrong - the meanings of the words words intellectual ( in Russian) and have nothing in common with each other.

means roughly "well brought-up", "well-mannered", "refined" - since the revolution, Russia has never had the same notions of class that we have in England, but if you were to put the word in an English context, you would have to introduce concepts like "posh" (which has no close equivalent in Russian) and "upper middle-class".

Thanks for the interesting banter palefire, but it's not completely wrong - at least not in the way that you assume it is. Intellectual used as a NOUN, not an adjective, and as I mentioned - the word has different connotations for different people. Since you're so versed in Russian, you should also know that almost all words need to be translated by their context and not necessarily their dictionary equivalent. Without knowing what Leo means by Intellectual, I gave the best answer I could - didn't see any from anyone else.

MichaelStipe
29-09-2003, 00:01
Could someone please tell me what I need to do in order for me to see the Russian language fonts as they appear in this thread? At the moment, I just see a bunch of jumbled garbage instead of Cyrillic letters. I have the capability of seeing Russian letters in emails and Microsoft Word.......just not on web pages. Thanks.

Olga
29-09-2003, 00:43
Click on View button in the Toolbars, then on Encoding and then on Cyrillic Windows and if this doesn't work - on Cyrillic Coi8-R

MichaelStipe
29-09-2003, 12:41
Thanks! That worked