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Scrat335
04-06-2009, 02:10
Interesting. I knew the Ukraine of today, thriving under the flag of USchenkos Orange revolution was corrupt but being the most corrupt is quite an accomplishment.

I really got a kick out of the US and Russias ratings. 3.7 and 3.9 res. What is the big difference there? My country is all but neck and neck with what is supposed to be the most corrupt country in the world?

WHODA THUNKIT!!! :beerbros:



Global corruption survey: Ukraine has highest level of corruption among Newly Independent States
Yesterday, 19:12 | Interfax-Ukraine PrintE-mail to a friendE-mail to an editorial International civil rights organization Transparency International has launched a new Global Barometer, where Ukraine placed the last among the New Independent States with an index of 4.3 index.


In the report, which was made public in Brussels, the following corruption indexes are provided: Armenia 3.1, Azerbaijan 3.3, Belarus - 3.4, Georgia 3.1, Moldova 3.5, Mongolia 3.7, Russia 3.9 and Ukraine 4.3.

Among the European Union and other countries the corruption index was calculated for Austria (2.8), Bulgaria (4), Czechia (3.4), Denmark (2.4), Finland (2.5), Greece (3.7), Hungary (3.8), Iceland (3.5), Israel (3.5), Italy (3.7), Luxemburg (3.3), The Netherlands (2.6), Norway (3.1), Poland (3.5), Portugal (3.4), Romania (4), Spain (3.2), Switzerland (2.8), The United Kingdom (3.3), the United States (3.7) and Canada (3.2).

The survey, which was held from October 2008 to February 2009 in 69 countries, polled 73,132 respondents.

Most of the respondents were greatly concerned by the growth of corruption in the private sector, which increased by 8% if compared to results of 2003. Many respondents think that bribery is used to influence politics and the regulatory sector for the benefit of companies. This opinion is widespread in the newly independent states, the Americas, the West Balkans and Turkey.

Most of those polled said that they consider political parties as the most corrupt domestic institution.

More than one out of every 10 respondents had to pay bribes last in the last 12 months. Four out of ten bribe-givers said the bribe was 10% of their annual income.

Armenia, Azerbaijan, Cambodia, Cameroon, Iraq, Liberia, Sierra-Leone and Uganda top list of countries affected by low-level bribery. The results show that people with low income pay bribes more frequently than the rich ones when they deal with the police, law, land sector and education.

On the whole, the results show that the state anti-corruption measures are ineffective.

When asked what sector they consider the most corrupt, most people said it was politics (29%). The rest named state officials (26%), parliament (16%), business and private sector (14%), legal institutions (9%) and the mass media (6%).

Russian Lad
04-06-2009, 03:29
I really got a kick out of the US and Russias ratings. 3.7 and 3.9 res. What is the big difference there?

Almost no difference. I have been trying to get this idea across here on this forum for almost a year now to some of my democratic friends from the US and UK:).

Scrat335
04-06-2009, 03:48
Some of them are so brainwashed that will never happen. Nobody is going to tell me there's big differences in human nature on opposite sides of the globe.

Jack17
04-06-2009, 06:29
Some of them are so brainwashed that will never happen. Nobody is going to tell me there's big differences in human nature on opposite sides of the globe.

Maybe not human nature, but there's a big difference in respect for the law. I'll bet you my next pay check I can take a hundred dollar bill into Tblisi and buy myself a driver's license; try doing that at a California DMV. This rating is ridiculous.

J.D.
04-06-2009, 07:59
It's a subjective poll, at least the respondents are being subjective. A person in one country can say, 'yes we are corrupt' because a candidate had an extra-marital affair, and a person in another country can say yes we are corrupt because our journalists are murdered by the government. So both countries will get the same rating.
Even if we consider that the ratings are for how people think about their own country little comparison can be made because they will have different expectations of themselves.

MissAnnElk
04-06-2009, 09:42
In the report, which was made public in Brussels, the following corruption indexes are provided: Armenia 3.1, Azerbaijan 3.3, Belarus - 3.4, Georgia 3.1, Moldova 3.5, Mongolia 3.7, Russia 3.9 and Ukraine 4.3.

Among the European Union and other countries the corruption index was calculated for Austria (2.8), Bulgaria (4), Czechia (3.4), Denmark (2.4), Finland (2.5), Greece (3.7), Hungary (3.8), Iceland (3.5), Israel (3.5), Italy (3.7), Luxemburg (3.3), The Netherlands (2.6), Norway (3.1), Poland (3.5), Portugal (3.4), Romania (4), Spain (3.2), Switzerland (2.8), The United Kingdom (3.3), the United States (3.7) and Canada (3.2).

I don't see a link to the source, but these numbers are completely different . . . In the first paragraph they are negative numbers. Russia is -3.9.

In the second paragraph the are positive numbers. The USA is 3.7.

Right?

At the least the article is really badly edited, because the different style of presenting the data is very confusing.

Surfsup37
04-06-2009, 11:48
First, Inter-fax always seems to have either translation problems or fact checking, so I went to the source.

If you are really interested, they go into the methodology of their surveys.

First Survey - Corruption Perception, This survey is for 2008. This survey tends to use experts.

cpi 2008 table /cpi2008/2008/in focus/news room (http://www.transparency.org/news_room/in_focus/2008/cpi2008/cpi_2008_table)

In this case, the higher the number the better, 1 to 10

Country Ranking, Country, Country Score, Survey Technique used, confidence Range


1, Denmark, 9,3, 6, 9.1 - 9.4

18, USA, 7,3 , 8 , 6.7 - 7.7


67, Georgia , 3,9 , 7, 3.2 - 4.6

134, Ukraine, 2,5 , 8 , 2.2 - 2.8

147, Russia, 2,1 , 8 , 1.9 - 2.5


Now there Barometer measuring seems to be geared towards what people believe is wrong in their countries. So you are asking the average Joe, or Ivan how corrupt he believes various institutions to be.

The higher the number, the worse the people think things are.

J.D is right, it is a subjective poll, just like the this site. ;-)

From the site:

The Barometer, now in its sixth edition, draws from Gallup International’s Voice of the People Survey and other survey work and this year reflects the responses of 73,132 people in 69 countries and territories, gathered between October 2008 and February 2009. Respondents were asked about their experiences of petty bribery, their perception of the pervasiveness of corruption in domestic institutions, and their views on the integrity of the private sector and of government effectiveness in fighting corruption.

2009_06_03_GCB2009_en/2009/press_releases/latest news/news room (http://www.transparency.org/news_room/latest_news/press_releases/2009/2009_06_03_gcb2009_en)



Example from the Full Report which can be seen on-site:

This section is about petty bribery

Group 2:
Between 23 and 49 per cent reported this as a major problem
Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bolivia,
Cambodia, Ghana, Indonesia, Iraq,
Kenya, Lithuania, Moldova,
Mongolia, Russia, Senegal,


Group 5: 6 per cent or less reported this as a major problem
Argentina, Austria, Brunei
Darussalam, Bulgaria, Canada,
Croatia, Denmark, Finland, FYR
Macedonia, Georgia, Iceland, Israel,
Japan, Luxembourg, Netherlands,
Norway, Panama, Poland, Portugal,
Singapore, South Korea, Spain,
Switzerland, Turkey, United
Kingdom, United States

Here is the index portion


Table 1 To what extent do you perceive the following institutions in this country to be affected by corruption? (1: not all corrupt , 5: extremely corrupt ) Average score .

Country/Territory Political Parties Parliament/Legislature Business/ Private Sector Media Public officials/ Civil Servants Judiciary Average Score

Russia 3,9 3,9 3,7 3,5 4,5 3,9 3,9
Ukraine 4,4 4,5 4,3 3,8 4,5 4,5 4,3
Georgia 3,1 3,1 2,9 2,9 3,2 3,3 3,1


Canada 3,5 3,2 3,4 3,1 3,1 2,7 3,2
US 4,0 3,9 3,7 3,7 3,7 3,2 3,7


So the average American thinks his poltical parties are corrupt, and the average Russian thinks his poltical parties are corrupt, and the average Ukraininan thinks his poltical parties are really corrupt.

In the same part, the Average American thinks his civil servants (police, government officials) are sort of corrupt, while the average Russian thinks his civil servants are really corrupt. ;-)

Since Denmark topped the previous survey, I looked at their results, and the average Dane seems to be pretty happy with his government, as does the average Finn.

Denmark 2,6 2,1 2,9 2,8 2,3 1,7 2,4

Finland 2,9 2,5 2,8 2,6 2,1 1,9 2,5

RRM
04-06-2009, 13:24
You guys fail to read that article carefully. They chose Newly Independednt Nations and made a survey amongst them. Next one was only between Europeon and other nations. They never put Newly independent nations with the other nations in the same ranking.
And why isnt any African nation in this survey ?

Russian Lad
04-06-2009, 15:21
Maybe not human nature, but there's a big difference in respect for the law. I'll bet you my next pay check I can take a hundred dollar bill into Tblisi and buy myself a driver's license; try doing that at a California DMV. This rating is ridiculous.

Jack, I worked in a US company for 8 years here in Russia. Officially it is not allowed to hate the blacks, but most of the US whites are racists, officially you have very low levels of corruption, but when it comes to serious money Americans do not hesitate to offer kickbacks. Your corruption is more structured than here in Russia, one just has to learn more rules of the game.
Once I was in Lithuania, was thouroughly checked on my way in. When I was leaving, I needed to go through that checkpoint again, but my train was to depart in a couple of minutes, so I had no time for formalities. I just approached the Lithuanian soldiers, serious looking dudes with machine guns, and asked them point-blank: "How much is it to cross the border, I am in a hurry!"
- You need to see the chief.
It turned out it costs 50 dollars. They didn't even open the bag.
Corruption is universal.

jeyla
04-06-2009, 16:00
it is all too often a matter of money and knowing when and where and how to offer it... and how much of course ;-) and where you dont offer money, you bring something else to the table...

you basically find a way to make something happen and some people are willing to push their own moral boundaries and those of others far enough, whereas some are not... i ve seen high up austrian govt officials accept bribes and a street russian cop refusing one (and no it was not too small ;-))

as for any and all kinds of ratings or scores... statistics are a tool and they can be used to reflect what you need - each score is an interpretation and without knowing the scales and the variables and how the whole survey was conducted, you can never know how well these scores reflect the claim that is being made or if they even reflect anything at all

i ve done enough statistical research to have learned to take in such "ratings" with a lot of caution...

Carbo
04-06-2009, 16:01
Jack, I worked in a US company for 8 years here in Russia. Officially it is not allowed to hate the blacks, but most of the US whites are racists, officially you have very low levels of corruption, but when it comes to serious money Americans do not hesitate to offer kickbacks.
You were in Alabama -- of was it Georgia?? Anyway, whichever, I suspect it answers a great deal.

MissAnnElk
04-06-2009, 16:14
One man's bribe is another man's tip.

Russian Lad
04-06-2009, 16:36
You were in Alabama -- of was it Georgia?? Anyway, whichever, I suspect it answers a great deal.

Carbo, I was referring to my work experience here in Russia. When the stakes are high, people tend to cooperate:). Wonder if you would refuse if I offered you, say, 2 million dollars, 50% paid in advance, for all the files of the company you work for and have access to:).

Kvartiraokhotnik
04-06-2009, 16:56
it is all too often a matter of money and knowing when and where and how to offer it... and how much of course ;-) and where you dont offer money, you bring something else to the table...

you basically find a way to make something happen and some people are willing to push their own moral boundaries and those of others far enough, whereas some are not... i ve seen high up austrian govt officials accept bribes and a street russian cop refusing one (and no it was not too small ;-))

as for any and all kinds of ratings or scores... statistics are a tool and they can be used to reflect what you need - each score is an interpretation and without knowing the scales and the variables and how the whole survey was conducted, you can never know how well these scores reflect the claim that is being made or if they even reflect anything at all

i ve done enough statistical research to have learned to take in such "ratings" with a lot of caution...

Best post I've read here in a long time. It'd be a pleasure to hear some more :applause:

J.D.
07-06-2009, 12:28
I agree it's a 'problem' of when and where with bribery. I think corruption is lower in the U.S. now than in the past because the 'when and where' has become much more difficult. Most people are afraid to offer a cop a bribe and most cops are afraid to accept one, in the everyday scenarios anyway. And with modern technology I think bribery will continue to decline, if not more will be caught.

Also U.S. cops make a reasonable living so they are not as tempted to take small bribes.

Jack17
07-06-2009, 20:22
I agree it's a 'problem' of when and where with bribery. I think corruption is lower in the U.S. now than in the past because the 'when and where' has become much more difficult. Most people are afraid to offer a cop a bribe and most cops are afraid to accept one, in the everyday scenarios anyway. And with modern technology I think bribery will continue to decline, if not more will be caught.

Also U.S. cops make a reasonable living so they are not as tempted to take small bribes.

"Most people?" In 55 years of living in the US, I've never known of any individual offering a cop a bribe. Do businesses, like massage parlors, offer bribes to police? Yes; I think it's probably similar to the relationship between militzia and pimps in Russia. The key to this is salary; in most countries, like Mexico, police are paid so little because it's understood they will supplement their salary with bribes. But . . .the more you make, the more you want. I've never paid a bribe to the militzia in Russia; but I've been driving with Russians who were stoped and paid bribes. That kind of bribery doesn't happen in the US because neither the cop nor the driver would know if they'd be turned in by the other. In the case of the pimp or message parlor owner, both know who they are dealing with.