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Carbo
24-03-2009, 12:07
MOSCOW (AFP) — Obama ice cream, anyone? Chocolate-vanilla ice cream is one of several Russian products being marketed using America's first black president, even as critics call the ads racist.

Other ads featuring US President Barack Obama have promoted tanning salons and tooth-whitening services.

But the creator of one Obama-themed ad -- for ice cream bars which have a chocolate-flavoured centre embedded in a layer of vanilla -- insisted Friday that it was not racist and should be seen as a joke.

The ad for Duet ice cream bars features a smiling, cartoonish black man flashing a V-for-Victory sign in front of the US Capitol, along with the Russian slogan: "Everyone's talking about it: dark inside white!"

Some blasted the ad as insensitive after it surfaced on English-language websites this week. "This is just racist," said one visitor to the Ads of the World website, while another asked: "Is the ice cream as tasteless as the ad?"

Andrei Gubaidullin, who created the ad, told AFP that it was not racist and that Russia simply had a different attitude to race than Western countries.

"For Russia, this is not racist. It is fun and that's it," said Gubaidullin, creative director at Voskhod advertising agency, based in the Urals Mountains city of Yekaterinburg.

"We don't consider teasing ethnic groups racist. It is just seen as a joke," he said by telephone, adding that he personally liked Obama.

In another ad to play on Obama's race, a leaflet recently seen in Moscow used a photograph of the US president to promote a tanning salon.

And a leaflet circulated in Moscow last fall showed a smiling Obama with the slogan "Full Dental Democracy!" to promote the MeraDent chain of dental clinics.

People of African descent are relatively few in Russia and those who do live in the country often complain of racism.
I'm really not sure Russia has grasped what racism is. I think people here think that it means gas chambers and stuff. Anything else is not racist.

Telling here is the line: "We don't consider teasing ethnic groups racist."

So, we don't see cracking racist jokes as racist?

Bottom line: making negative remarks, or judging somebody, or discraminating against somebody, based on race, is racist.

I mean, why not call it morozhenoe schokoladka presidyent?

ultimotattie
24-03-2009, 12:18
This is what David Icke warned us about. You and other people will get indignant at these things, will protest, and the authorities will use it to keep on creating a police state around us.

Stop getting mad and taking away my civil liberties!!

Qdos
24-03-2009, 12:22
Just as well Moscow hasn't caught on to vanilla [-]coons[/-] cones with a Cadburys flake stuck upright in them............ :focus:

http://i44.tinypic.com/2s1vwqs.jpg

Wodin
24-03-2009, 12:49
This is what David Icke warned us about. You and other people will get indignant at these things, will protest, and the authorities will use it to keep on creating a police state around us.

Stop getting mad and taking away my civil liberties!!

Ah...David Icke. That same individual who thinks that the world is in fact ruled by the Illuminati, that the Protocols of Zion were not a hoax dreamt up by a Russian nobleman to ignite pogroms, that a significant number of the worlds' political and business leaders are in fact reptilian aliens from the constellation Draco who walk upright, or their offspring or associates....

The same Mr Icke who is an anti-semite and a far right exponent...

...and you talk of losing your civil liberties??

alterego
24-03-2009, 12:56
I remember years ago in America that Polish jokes and Jewish jokes were not really considered racist. If you wanted to make a joke about a stupid person you made it a Polish joke and if you wanted to make a joke about a greedy person you made it about a Jew. Now it's blonde jokes for stupid people and I imagine soon it will be AIG execs for greedy people.

Korotky Gennady
24-03-2009, 15:41
[INDENT][


So, we don't see cracking racist jokes as racist?

Bottom line: making negative remarks, or judging somebody, or discraminating against somebody, based on race, is racist.

I mean, why not call it morozhenoe schokoladka presidyent?Carbo, becoz we, russians, are... - thanks to our classical culture - not so stupid as you are and we can differentiate a simple joke from a racist joke. So we are not wooden logs as many others are..

Korotky Gennady
24-03-2009, 15:47
I remember years ago in America that Polish jokes and Jewish jokes were not really considered racist. If you wanted to make a joke about a stupid person you made it a Polish joke and if you wanted to make a joke about a greedy person you made it about a Jew.
.Carbo, were your parents polish ?

Ghostly Presence
24-03-2009, 15:57
I'm really not sure Russia has grasped what racism is. I think people here think that it means gas chambers and stuff. Anything else is not racist.


Carbo,

Why don’t you educate us? What is racism in your understanding and why a picture of a black man advertising a tanning salon is degrading? The Economist routinely publishes caricatures of Putin with bears and gaz pipes. The Russian crowd is usually depicted by that magazine as grey and wearing fur hats - hardly an appealing image.

Is that also racism?

Korotky Gennady
24-03-2009, 16:01
[I


And a leaflet circulated in Moscow last fall showed a smiling Obama with the slogan "Full Dental Democracy!" to promote the MeraDent chain of dental clinics.



Оh, Lord... :cheerleader: It is really a fantastic joke becoz many teethless russian bums know very well what this 'western democracy' really costs... And what this 'democracy' costs to them personally.

kebab
24-03-2009, 16:04
I fully agree with Carbo here I'm fed up with people using racist language and turning round and saying it is just a 'joke.' At work everytime Obama appears on TV someone has to make a comment and its tiresome, its not even remotely funny.

Korotky Gennady
24-03-2009, 16:14
I fully agree with Carbo here I'm fed up with people using racist language and turning round and saying it is just a 'joke.' At work everytime Obama appears on TV someone has to make a comment and its tiresome, its not even remotely funny.

Is it a joke a kind of "your chokolite icecream
president is again on the screen" ? :confused1:


Anyway the russians are not so hypocrites as the many westerns are... and many russian who have nothing to lose.. like to express their feelings openly.

alterego
24-03-2009, 21:19
It seems to me that a person who sees it as racist has a better chance of being a racist than the person who said it.
Does anyone remember what Bond said to Phelix Lieder when he met him in the epsiode where Lieder was played by a black man for the first time?
Something to the effect of 'nice tan'.
Was Roger Moore being a racist then?
When Jacqueline Kennedy was pregnant it was fashionable for women to wear maternity clothes even though they weren't pregnant. Were clothing advertisers being sexist with their ads at that time?

TGP
24-03-2009, 22:30
Oh boy, again...

Recycling.

Jack17
24-03-2009, 22:53
All the Russian responses to Carbo's original post just prove that racism is so ingraned in Russian society that Russians cannot even recognize it. The typical Russian response is, 'Brits and Americans are too stupid to be able to recognize the difference between a joke and a racist comment' or some variant on that response. Allow me to explain: if you joke about something someone says or writes, that is not racist; if you make a joke about someone's color or genetic features, that is racist. One is an attribute of a person's mind (speech); the other is an attribute of a person's race (skin color). If you make a "joke" about an attribute of a person's race, you are demeaning that person; you are depicting that person as in some way humorous or funny (and hence, implicitly inferior) because of their race. It's really just a matter of basic courtesy. Courtesy, after all, requires people to put others' feelings before their own; so, you don't make fun of, or refer in a humorous way to, someone's color because you may offend that person. All of this is intuitively understood by people raised in a multi-cultural, multi-racial society. All I can say to my Russian friends who find these jokes about Obama or others of African decent to be humorous is - ne kulturna!

TGP
24-03-2009, 22:58
Jack17:
(and hence, implicitly inferior)

Why so, kulturny vy nash?

TGP
24-03-2009, 23:14
Why donít you educate us?

Well, I have already got a lot of material, enough for upholding a doctoral thesis.

Jack17
24-03-2009, 23:16
Anytime you make fun of someone, the clear implication is that person is inferior, in some way, to you. If you joke about what someone says or does, I suppose that is fair game; if you joke about someone's race (their color, hair,etc.) that's racist. This is not a complex subject; it's really that simple.

TGP
24-03-2009, 23:33
Anytime you make fun of someone, the clear implication is that person is inferior, in some way, to you. If you joke about what someone says or does, I suppose that is fair game; if you joke about someone's race (their color, hair,etc.) that's racist. This is not a complex subject; it's really that simple.

This is a racist approach, Jack. Joke is not necessariy abasement. We may joke at someone whom we love. Moreover, comments about someone's race may be praising or complementary.

AndreyS
24-03-2009, 23:45
Jack17:

kulturny vy nash?

****ing all that racism, I just wonder if you could think up some English equivalent of your words. Rack your brain pls. It occured to me several times - such a good expression it is - but I failed to find a good English expression for it.

AndreyS
25-03-2009, 00:04
Jack, I remember Pres. Obama said a couple of months ago: We bought a half-breed dog, it is mud like me.
Is it a racist joke? Will you prosecute him for that?

Jack17
25-03-2009, 00:35
This is a racist approach, Jack. Joke is not necessariy abasement. We may joke at someone whom we love. Moreover, comments about someone's race may be praising or complementary.
:thumbsup: This is always the Russian response to this kind of criticism, "It's a joke!" "There's nothing wrong with us Russians; it's everyone else (usually Americans) who are too stupid and uncultured to understand our intentions.
I think it's just insensitivity bred from 80 years of Communist enforced isolation. I suppose because the Communist Nomenklatura preached for 80 years how open and non-racist the CCCP was compared to America, that the idea can't be erased from the collective Russian psyche. It astounds me how so many Russians are incapable of self criticism. Americans have wrestled with the most aggregious forms of racism, bigotry and apartied for the better part of 200 years and have evolved into a "more perfect union;" or, at least a happier state of coexistence. It's an odessey Russia, and most of the world, has yet to travel. :soapbox:

DDT
25-03-2009, 04:18
15666

Jack17
25-03-2009, 06:15
. . . and then there's DDT. Saints preserve us!

Ghostly Presence
25-03-2009, 10:04
think it's just insensitivity bred from 80 years of Communist enforced isolation. I suppose because the Communist Nomenklatura preached for 80 years how open and non-racist the CCCP was compared to America, that the idea can't be erased from the collective Russian psyche.

That's not it Jack! You see, unlike Americans we never brought boatloads of African slaves to work for us for free and be treated as sub-human. Maybe because of that, unlike you guys, we have no feeling of guilt before them in our "collective Russian psyche". How's that for an explanation?

ultimotattie
25-03-2009, 10:35
Racism is a double-edged sword. Sometimes it seems to be that you can say a word if you are part of one culture, but if you are an outsider to it, saying the same word gets you in lots of bother and accused of racism.

If I ran off to a policeman and said that I was just called a 'white ******', I highly doubt that anything is going to get done about it, never mind branded as racism.

But then, were the adverts for the Milky-Bar Kid racist against whites because they featured a white kid advertising white chocolate? Ah, maybe it was racist against asian/african/arabic/every other people as well because they weren't advertising it...some kind of deep hidden meaning that white chocolate is exclusively for whites...

Then again, maybe it was just an advert trying to sell some chocolate...

TGP
25-03-2009, 10:36
****ing all that racism, I just wonder if you could think up some English equivalent of your words. Rack your brain pls. It occured to me several times - such a good expression it is - but I failed to find a good English expression for it.

Absolutely no wish to rack my brain, he won't understand this joke anyway, because it is Russian D)

Ghostly Presence
25-03-2009, 10:43
Racism is a double-edged sword. Sometimes it seems to be that you can say a word if you are part of one culture, but if you are an outsider to it, saying the same word gets you in lots of bother and accused of racism.

If I ran off to a policeman and said that I was just called a 'white ******', I highly doubt that anything is going to get done about it, never mind branded as racism.

But then, were the adverts for the Milky-Bar Kid racist against whites because they featured a white kid advertising white chocolate? Ah, maybe it was racist against asian/african/arabic/every other people as well because they weren't advertising it...some kind of deep hidden meaning that white chocolate is exclusively for whites...

Then again, maybe it was just an advert trying to sell some chocolate...

Any idea can taken be taken to the point of absurdity. I think that the West has long reached that point with its notions of racism and political correctness.

TGP
25-03-2009, 10:49
Jack, I remember Pres. Obama said a couple of months ago: We bought a half-breed dog, it is mud like me.
Is it a racist joke? Will you prosecute him for that?

Andrey, you may quote a lot of other examples, but it's like talking to a brick wall. The main idea is not racism per se, but Russians. And since Russians have their own understanding of many things, they have been wrong.

Willy
25-03-2009, 10:57
That's not it Jack! You see, unlike Americans we never brought boatloads of African slaves to work for us for free and be treated as sub-human. Maybe because of that, unlike you guys, we have no feeling of guilt before them in our "collective Russian psyche". How's that for an explanation?


Russian is actually a race.

American is not.

People here think nothing of saying Russians this or Russian that.

There are many more things that make us all the same but we like to focus on the differences.

Ghostly Presence
25-03-2009, 11:05
Russian is actually a race.

American is not.

People here think nothing of saying Russians this or Russian that.

There are many more things that make us all the same but we like to focus on the differences.

Exactly!! It seems OK to say that Russians are drunkards or wife-beaters etc., but God forbid somebody says something negative about the blacks or any other race! Such person will be immediately acused of racism!

That's called double-standards.

TGP
25-03-2009, 11:07
That's not it Jack! You see, unlike Americans we never brought boatloads of African slaves to work for us for free and be treated as sub-human. Maybe because of that, unlike you guys, we have no feeling of guilt before them in our "collective Russian psyche". How's that for an explanation?

GP, you expressed my idea.

Ghostly Presence
25-03-2009, 11:26
GP, you expressed my idea.

That reminds me of a joke. Itís not racial, so the racism-fighters here can relax!

A boy walks in his parentsí bedroom and catches his parents making love. When they kick him out, he thinks to himself: ďAnd these people forbid me to pick my nose??!!Ē :)

Korotky Gennady
25-03-2009, 17:50
some kind of deep hidden meaning that white chocolate is exclusively for whites...




.Of course white chocolate is for whites only.

jordan74
25-03-2009, 17:51
Just take a moment to watch this. This is PART 1. The 2nd Part is below the first video.

YouTube- People & Power - Black Russian - 24 Mar - Part 1


YouTube- People & Power - Black Russian - 24 Mar - Part 2

Korotky Gennady
25-03-2009, 18:03
You see, unlike Americans we never brought boatloads of African slaves to work for us for free and be treated as sub-human. Maybe because of that, unlike you guys, we have no feeling of guilt before them in our "collective Russian psyche". GP, by the way russians had white slaves up to the 1860s and millions the white slaves were treated like animals sometimes but russian tv and russian state bosses today don't feel the government's guilt for that...

Ghostly Presence
25-03-2009, 18:34
GP, by the way russians had white slaves up to the 1860s and millions the white slaves were treated like animals sometimes but russian tv and russian state bosses today don't feel the government's guilt for that...


Well, that makes sense Ė nobody in Russia would be crazy enough to demand anything from the state today because his or her ancestors were enslaved. Not so with Americans blacks. While socializing with them I got the impression that many of them live with the sense of entitlement, i.e. they feel that America owes them because their ancestors were slaves. I can understand why they feel that way Ė according to the recent issue of The Economist one in five black men in America served time in jail. Moreover, the black population is on average much poorer than the white. So, I can see why they would be mad Ė even though people would think twice about telling a ďblackĒ joke in the US these days, the fact remains Ė millions of blacks still remain economically disadvantaged there, despite their contribution to that country.

Jack17
25-03-2009, 18:43
Exactly!! It seems OK to say that Russians are drunkards or wife-beaters etc., but God forbid somebody says something negative about the blacks or any other race! Such person will be immediately acused of racism!

That's called double-standards.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

Ghostly Presence
25-03-2009, 18:50
Two wrongs don't make a right.

But they sure do make a good point when someone is trying to come accross as righteous and flawless with no real reason for it.

Ghostly Presence
25-03-2009, 19:03
By the way, Carbo & Jack, I would very much like to find out your opinion regarding why the black population in the US on average does worse financially than the white? Why do so many of them end up in jail?

Would you kindly share your thoughts on that with us?

Jack17
25-03-2009, 19:14
Racism is a double-edged sword. Sometimes it seems to be that you can say a word if you are part of one culture, but if you are an outsider to it, saying the same word gets you in lots of bother and accused of racism.

If I ran off to a policeman and said that I was just called a 'white ******', I highly doubt that anything is going to get done about it, never mind branded as racism.

But then, were the adverts for the Milky-Bar Kid racist against whites because they featured a white kid advertising white chocolate? Ah, maybe it was racist against asian/african/arabic/every other people as well because they weren't advertising it...some kind of deep hidden meaning that white chocolate is exclusively for whites...

Then again, maybe it was just an advert trying to sell some chocolate...
:11033:Ultimotattie, if you ran and told a policeman you were African or Asian, I believe you'd get the same reaction: "So what?" Your analogy misses the point; humor is subtle and if that humor references one's race or color, it's deprecating by infering there is something funny or odd in that fact.
But the Russians have gotten a raw deal in this discussion; let's turn to the British :uk:and the recent public comments of HRH Harry Windsor. Any behavior, good or bad, by a young person brings into question that person's family and upbringing. Where did he get such pro-Nazi, racist ideas? Maybe from his Public School chums? But what counter influence to this did his family provide? Or maybe HRH is just picking up where his great uncle David, aka Edward VIII, aka Duke of Windsor left off with his Nazi sympathies.
The point here is all cultures have problems with race. I believe precisely because people were bought and sold at aution in the public square in the United States and a hundred years after this ended there was still legal apartied in the US, that the US has been forced to deal with racial relations more than other countries. If Americans are more sensitive to issues of race, that is a good thing.:hooray:After all, everyone wants to be lectured on how to live by Americans, don't they?:10189:

ultimotattie
25-03-2009, 19:31
There would still appear to be some anomalies in the thoughts about racism.

For example, say Billy Connolly goes on TV, he makes jokes about white people, its all good. If he makes a joke about black people, he's racist.

Contrast it with say Chris Rock. He will go on and make a joke about black people, its all good. If he makes a joke about white people, it's still all good.

Are black people slightly above public opinion in that regard? Or are white people just not in the least bit bothered about what racial stereotypes they are given?

Are jokes about ones own colour or race okay, but not about someone elses?

While I appreciate there are people in every country who are out and out racists, there are still a lot of grey areas which common people don't consider to be racist, from all colours and backgrounds.

As for Prince Harry...the less said the better, a complete and utter ******, even if you took his pro-Nazi leanings away.

Jack17
25-03-2009, 19:47
By the way, Carbo & Jack, I would very much like to find out your opinion regarding why the black population in the US on average does worse financially than the white? Why do so many of them end up in jail?

Would you kindly share your thoughts on that with us?
:11581:For the same reason so many Russians are out of work and end up in jail. A Moscovich said to me a few years ago, "You know, I am not Russian, I am Jewish. My ancestors were never slaves. All these Russians you see today are the product of a 1000 years of slavery; that's why they all work as little as possible and have no ambition. Stalin murdered all the kuloks and aristocracy; all that was left were the proletariat."

At least the Russian serf was not sold on the auction block and, in most cases, not torn apart from his parents at a young age as was frequently the case in antebellum America.
The answer to your question is complex :book:; but I believe a history of slavery can have an enormous impact for generations on a people who suffered through it.

Jack17
25-03-2009, 20:21
:rules:
There would still appear to be some anomalies in the thoughts about racism.

For example, say Billy Connolly goes on TV, he makes jokes about white people, its all good. If he makes a joke about black people, he's racist.

Contrast it with say Chris Rock. He will go on and make a joke about black people, its all good. If he makes a joke about white people, it's still all good.

Are black people slightly above public opinion in that regard? Or are white people just not in the least bit bothered about what racial stereotypes they are given?

Are jokes about ones own colour or race okay, but not about someone elses?

While I appreciate there are people in every country who are out and out racists, there are still a lot of grey areas which common people don't consider to be racist, from all colours and backgrounds.

As for Prince Harry...the less said the better, a complete and utter ******, even if you took his pro-Nazi leanings away.
:nut: All I can say is that in my experience self-deprecation is perceived differently from deprecating another. I suppose it stems from the general notion that a person is at liberty to describe himself as he wishes; but that liberty does not extend to others.

Jack17
25-03-2009, 20:33
But they sure do make a good point when someone is trying to come accross as righteous and flawless with no real reason for it.
:neiner:. Insults are always the last resort for people without ideas:nono:

Carbo
25-03-2009, 20:44
By the way, Carbo & Jack, I would very much like to find out your opinion regarding why the black population in the US on average does worse financially than the white? Why do so many of them end up in jail?

Would you kindly share your thoughts on that with us?
BINGO!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is either designed to (1) show that blacks are oppressed in the US, ergo Russia is not so bad (Communist punchline: "Yes, but in America, they lynch negros") or (2) cast some aspersions on the black population vis a vis its crime rate and solcial status.

Both versions represent a priori evidence of a wrong headded mentality -- at best.

Look at the video. What a joke! The негр got a tan! Kha, kha, kha!

REally, Russian's aren't like those Nazi pigs shown on the video, and it is unfair that Russians are ever presented like that. As ever, it's just a minority scum that gives the population a bad rap; however, casual racism, of the Alf Garnett type we had in Britain two generations ago is rife here. Honestly, I find it embarrassing and feel shocked that people here would try to defend it.

Guys, you're smart people. Why are you defending this?

And black people are poor and more likely to have a criminal record because of something called the cycle of deprivation. They were taken to America as slaves, lived until the mid-sixties as second class citizens with no access to education or good work. If you look at a white community that was poor in the sixties, you will see that their kids are just as likely to be poor or criminals as poor black people.

That's how the cycle of deprivation works. Poverty passes through generations, like it or not.

Ghostly Presence
25-03-2009, 23:40
Jack and Carbo Ė thank you!

If I understood your replies correctly, what you are saying is that it is the black peopleís fault that they canít achieve as much as whites, but the society is to blame for that since it: 1) used their ancestors as slaves several generations ago (!); 2) it never helped them overcome the lasting effects of slavery.

I applaud you for giving a very politically correct answer to a very sensitive question! )))


P.S. I was never defending racism, Carbo, especially the kind shown in the video. I was just pointing to the double-standards in some of the posts.

RRM
25-03-2009, 23:42
What about the vodka branded after Putin ? Putinka

AndreyS
25-03-2009, 23:53
What about the vodka branded after Putin ? Putinka

It's OK, No prob with it. I think PM Putin takes it very easy. And I have no doubt - manufacturers didn't ask for his permission to name this vodka.

Jack17
26-03-2009, 00:08
Jack and Carbo Ė thank you!

If I understood your replies correctly, what you are saying is that it is the black peopleís fault that they canít achieve as much as whites, but the society is to blame for that since it: 1) used their ancestors as slaves several generations ago (!); 2) it never helped them overcome the lasting effects of slavery.

I applaud you for giving a very politically correct answer to a very sensitive question! )))


P.S. I was never defending racism, Carbo, especially the kind shown in the video. I was just pointing to the double-standards in some of the posts.
That is not what I'm saying. I will reduce my answer to your original question to the simplest terms:
1. History shapes peoples' lives.
2. The complete answer as to why any group of people are who they is complex.
I also disagree with your (not my) conclusion that the history of African Americans has "never helped them overcome the lasting effects of slavery." The fact is they are overcoming those effects. Most importantly, European Americans are overcoming the effects of a history of slavery and oppresion of African Americans and Native Americans. This is clear from the fact more Americans voted for an African American for President than have ever voted for any candidate for US national office. When do you think a majority of Russians will vote for a Chechen as Russian President?
Finally, don't patronize me by trivializing my responses to your questions as "politically correct." That's just another cheap form of name calling; it only underminds your integrity.:nono:

Carbo
26-03-2009, 00:15
Jack and Carbo – thank you!

If I understood your replies correctly, what you are saying is that it is the black people’s fault that they can’t achieve as much as whites, but the society is to blame for that since it: 1) used their ancestors as slaves several generations ago (!); 2) it never helped them overcome the lasting effects of slavery.

I applaud you for giving a very politically correct answer to a very sensitive question! )))


P.S. I was never defending racism, Carbo, especially the kind shown in the video. I was just pointing to the double-standards in some of the posts.
There are no double standards. It is not considered acceptable in the west to mock or make jokes about people because of the colour of their skin. Sociological and socio-economic issues pertaining to race are completely separate to this. So using the economic performance of African-Americans as an excuse for the widepsread acceptance of petty racism in Russia just doesn't fly. They're two distinct and non-linked issues.

Further, even if they were linked, which they're not, but even if they were, why would American racism have any bearing on Russian racism? As I wrote in another post on another thread, if someone says that "binge drinking is a problem is Britain", I can't make it any less of a problem by saying Germans drink per capita just as much alcohol as the British. It just doesn't fly, and this is a problem in Russia -- people just accept racism as normal, and, indeed, often defend it , often by using invalid comparisons, like you just tried to do, comparisons that may be valid, but change nothing in absolute terms, or, more often than not, use good old indignant, shrill denial.

Even if in Britain petty racism was as prevalent as it is here, which it isn't, but even if it was, that wouldn't change the fact that (1) it is still a problem in Russia and (2) in Britain it is seen as socially unacceptable -- the domain of the loony, racist drunk in the corner of the pub that nobody feels comfortable talking to, or the old man or woman who was brought up 3 generations ago and knows no better -- whereas in Russia it isn't just accepted, but actively defended as 'harmless fun' and 'something that people should loosen up about' by otherwise intellegent persons like your goodself.

And another thing: I find it instructive that you can all have a good laugh about westerners being uptight and obsessed with political correctness, and let us know that a black person advertising a tanning salon is just harmless fun, but you sure are sensitive to any criticism of Russia or Russians.

Further, while you claim not to defend racism, the huge dollop of sarcasm splattered conspicuously across your post above suggests otherwise. You correctly state that I claim "it is [not - sic] the black people’s fault that they can’t achieve as much as whites," but then use the well known tool of sarcastic interpretation, over-simplification, to round off your point "but the society is to blame for that since it: 1) used their ancestors as slaves several generations ago (!); 2) it never helped them overcome the lasting effects of slavery."

Note the exclamation mark.

And then, to ram home the point that I'm just a softie-softie westerner looking to absolve African-Americans of personal responsibility because of their race: "I applaud you for giving a very politically correct answer to a very sensitive question! )))"

In effect your post says, (and I would normally be too reserved and non-combative to make this point so bluntly, but I'm depressed and p1ssed off and don't care who I upset): "Well done. You have done the right thing as a good westerner by blaming society for all the black man's problems. Of course, it was the problem of slavery. Of course that still has an impact hundreds of years later. Yes, you are a good, politically correct westerner."

Not defending racism? I wonder.

The cycle of deprivation is not a politically correct excuse for underachievemnt but something that explains why poverty travels through generations -- why, in effect, there is a link between what a child will earn and what his father earned. Of course, this can be applied to ethnic minorities, but it has nothing to do with political correctness, and certainly not in your mocking use of the term.

AndreyS
26-03-2009, 00:16
Oh, how boring is this endless discussion..

MickeyTong
26-03-2009, 00:18
Aren't all jokes based on cruelty/insensitivity?

AndreyS
26-03-2009, 00:26
Not sure. I love this one:

Major to General:
-Sir! What to do? Our troops are revolting!
General to Major:
-You yourself are revolting!

MickeyTong
26-03-2009, 00:39
Not sure.....

OK....not all jokes: only the funniest :shhhhhh:

Jack17
26-03-2009, 00:42
Carbo, a tip of the hat to you - that's great English.

AndreyS
26-03-2009, 00:45
Carbo, a tip of the hat to you - that's great English.

No wonder. He is a native speaker - like you! LOL

MickeyTong
26-03-2009, 00:49
No wonder. He is a native speaker - like you! LOL

But his writing displayed a pithy succinctness not easily achieved, even by native speakers.

ultimotattie
26-03-2009, 00:52
To be fair, English language of that level is only usually observed after a few beers in the pub!

AndreyS
26-03-2009, 00:54
But his writing displayed a pithy succinctness not easily achieved, even by native speakers.

You succeeded in it - you are really a man of few (strong) words.

Jack17
26-03-2009, 01:22
No wonder. He is a native speaker - like you! LOL
No Andrey, I'm American. For all of us English is a second language too.:bowdown:

AndreyS
26-03-2009, 01:26
No Andrey, I'm American. For all of us English is a second language too.:bowdown:

Could be could be. ;-)

British and Americans are two nations separated by the same language. G.B.Shaw. LOL

Carbo
26-03-2009, 10:24
Aren't all jokes based on cruelty/insensitivity?
No.

Carbo
26-03-2009, 10:26
But his writing displayed a pithy succinctness not easily achieved, even by native speakers.
Make way for the big head.

Ego duly expanded, thanks chaps.

TGP
26-03-2009, 11:15
Oh, how boring is this endless discussion..


Not only boring, but most idiotic, as it's based on the principle "we vs.you". Such discussions might be useful if the participants were really interested to understand the outlook of the opponents, but it always comes down to "we are better, you are worse" and "do it like we do". Bolstering self-esteem.

Carbo
26-03-2009, 12:08
Not only boring, but most idiotic, as it's based on the principle "we vs.you". Such discussions might be useful if the participants were really interested to understand the outlook of the opponents, but it always comes down to "we are better, you are worse" and "do it like we do". Bolstering self-esteem.
Interestinly, I would like to have a sensible conversation and exchange of ideas with Russians regarding race. It's very interesting here, what with Russia's history of being a broad church of different races within the empire and USSR.

But I can't, because every time it's mentioned in even a vaguely critical way, the barriers go up and certain posters here unite to deflect, deny and generally shout down the conversation.

Ghostly Presence
26-03-2009, 12:18
Thanks for you detailed responses to my question Carbo and Jack.

First, let me tell you a couple of stories.

Many years ago I used to work for an engineering firm in the United States. The employee body of the firm was almost 90% white with only a couple of African Americans employed as engineers. These people were actually a husband and a wife and were a truly delightful couple – well-educated, funny, outgoing and friendly. Well, every time that company had to publish an annual report or an article in the media, focusing on its employees, this black couple was inevitably summoned for a photo session – they had to appear in the crowd of the company’s workers to give the impression of a diverse environment at that “equal opportunity employer”. That was actually becoming a sort of a private joke among some of the firm’s employees.

The second story I heard from an American friend of mine who used to work for some government agency in DC that helped newly arrived immigrants find their first jobs in the US. He told me that the agency usually had no problem finding employment for Chinese, Indian, Asian and European immigrants – those people were happy to be working, making money and building their “American dream”. Not so with arrivals from Africa. The agency experienced numerous problems trying to get them employed since too many of them were (I am just repeating my friend’s words) lazy and incompetent. These people seemed to have no concept of time – if they were told to report at work at eight, they often showed up at eleven and were very surprised when they were immediately fired for that. Naturally, after a few of such cases the agency had difficult time placing arrivals from Africa with the employers who cooperated in that government program. As you can imagine, the story was conveyed to me in strict confidence because you could never say things like that in America – that would be racist! ;)

What am I trying to say with these two tales? First of all, I quickly learned that in America a lot of things are done for appearances only, such as those photo sessions with black employees to create an illusion of racial paradise and the land of equal opportunities where in reality they did not exist. Sort of like an American smile – looks great, means absolutely nothing.

The second point is that people are different in many respects, not only the color of their skin. They may differ in their abilities as well. We all know that Africans will never produce as many scientists as the Chinese and the Indians while Russians will never build a really good car. For whatever reason, whether Divine intervention or random acts of evolution, this seems to be a fact of life. You can either admit it in the open, as we do here in Russia, or whisper about it in private conversations while blaring about things you don’t really believe in as you do in the West, because political correctness calls for it.

None of the above of course justifies racism in Russia. But when people coming from the countries which are very far from solving their own racial problems start writing comments like “I am tired of these Russians making racist jokes!” and posting movies about some degenerates that supposedly represent Russia as a whole, please forgive me my sarcasm and skepticism, but I am not buying that self-righteous crap.

How come you never post such comments about your countries for the sake of discussion and get extremely defensive when someone like me points your countries’ problems in that area to you?

For the record – I personally would whole-heartedly support any government effort to curb racial violence in Russia and introduce severe criminal penalties for those involved in it.

Carbo
26-03-2009, 12:48
The second point is that people are different in many respects, not only the color of their skin. They may differ in their abilities as well. We all know that Africans will never produce as many scientists as the Chinese and the Indians while Russians will never build a really good car. For whatever reason, whether Divine intervention or random acts of evolution, this seems to be a fact of life. You can either admit it in the open, as we do here in Russia, or whisper about it in private conversations while blaring about things you don’t really believe in as you do in the West, because political correctness calls for it.

:floating:

TGP
26-03-2009, 12:50
Interestinly, I would like to have a sensible conversation and exchange of ideas with Russians regarding race. It's very interesting here, what with Russia's history of being a broad church of different races within the empire and USSR.

But I can't, because every time it's mentioned in even a vaguely critical way, the barriers go up and certain posters here unite to deflect, deny and generally shout down the conversation.

Try to start it not in a critical way.

Besides, relations between races may be considered not only from the point of racism, that is, from the negative, but from the long history of really friendly fruitful life together, but this somehow does not present any interest for discussions. Russia is a racist country! Aha, we are. So what? What's next? What kind of discussion you wnat to have?

My last comment about Russian jokes: we joke at Chapaev (our national hero), about Shtirlitz (a most popular film character) and others, which does not mean in the least that we do not like them. ON the contrary, in Russia they believe that lack of jokes about someone means lack of interest to this person.

Really, enough already. So many interesting things around, and that apart from the work which we all (at least supposedly) must or should do.

Ghostly Presence
26-03-2009, 12:55
:floating:

And your point is???

Carbo
26-03-2009, 13:14
OK, I'm going to exfiltrate myself from these threads. My posts are becoming increasingly combative and waspish, and I don't want to offend either people on the forum, or Russians who are kind enough to host me in their capital.

I'm in a bad mood, and I fear I cannot contribute to this without raising hell.

Self restraint needed.

Sorry, but no more.

RRM
26-03-2009, 13:20
The second point is that people are different in many respects, not only the color of their skin. They may differ in their abilities as well. We all know that Africans will never produce as many scientists as the Chinese and the Indians while Russians will never build a really good car. For whatever reason, whether Divine intervention or random acts of evolution, this seems to be a fact of life. You can either admit it in the open, as we do here in Russia, or whisper about it in private conversations while blaring about things you donít really believe in as you do in the West, because political correctness calls for it.

Well, this isnt not true at all to use the word 'never'. Myself in my line of business know of a few Africans who are scientists and professors in the USA. Infact I had a flat mate who was from Nigeria and we had three professors from Africa who had written several publications and contributed to the industry quite well that I am in.
About the automobiles, I am not sure that this is true as well. Russia can make good cars but if you ask me how then that requires a change in business culture and it really isnt a technical problem.

Ghostly Presence
26-03-2009, 13:24
Well, this isnt not true at all to use the word 'never'. Myself in my line of business know of a few Africans who are scientists and professors in the USA. Infact I had a flat mate who was from Nigeria and we had three professors from Africa who had written several publications and contributed to the industry quite well that I am in.
About the automobiles, I am not sure that this is true as well. Russia can make good cars but if you ask me how then that requires a change in business culture and it really isnt a technical problem.

I knew black professors as well. That is not the point. The fact they they do not produce AS MANY scientists as some other races does not imply that they don't produce them at all.

When you find that good Russian car - let me know! I will be the first to buy it! :)

RRM
26-03-2009, 13:40
When you find that good Russian car - let me know! I will be the first to buy it! :)

Well I will beat you to it myself but my point is that this isnt impossible. But people get paid big bucks to make those reccomendations and I am no expert at it.
People used to say the same about Japanese watches but look where that industry is now.

AndreyS
26-03-2009, 21:06
No Andrey, I'm American. For all of us English is a second language too.:bowdown:

Aaah, I catch. Your first language is American.
It reminds me of one Soviet chieftain who was accused of being an American spy (in the 1930s) and said to the prosecutor: How could it be? I don't speak American.

Jack17
26-03-2009, 22:00
I knew black professors as well. That is not the point. The fact they they do not produce AS MANY scientists as some other races does not imply that they don't produce them at all.

When you find that good Russian car - let me know! I will be the first to buy it! :)
Ghostly, it's a matter of perspective. There's no intrinsic reason why Russia cannot produce a car the equal of a Lexus or BMW and there is no intrinsic reason why Africa cannot produce as many scientist as China - or Russia. Any country that can produce an Akula nuclear submarine can sure produce a BMW. Actually, I prefer the style of a Volga to any other current car - it just looks Russian. And there are plenty of African intellectuals. The problem is we let these stereotypes govern our view of whole groups of people and that skews our perspective on the individual. Speaking of Russian consummer goods, are Russian wrist watches any good? I like their design; I just wonder how the workmanship compares to Swiss brands. I'm serious; let me know.

Jack17
26-03-2009, 22:01
I knew black professors as well. That is not the point. The fact they they do not produce AS MANY scientists as some other races does not imply that they don't produce them at all.

When you find that good Russian car - let me know! I will be the first to buy it! :)
Ghostly, it's a matter of perspective. There's no intrinsic reason why Russia cannot produce a car the equal of a Lexus or BMW and there is no intrinsic reason why Africa cannot produce as many scientist as China - or Russia. Any country that can produce an Akula nuclear submarine can sure produce a BMW. Actually, I prefer the style of a Volga to any other current car - it just looks Russian. And there are plenty of African intellectuals. The problem is we let these stereotypes govern our view of whole groups of people and that skews our perspective on the individual. Speaking of Russian consummer goods, are Russian wrist watches any good? I like their design; I just wonder how the workmanship compares to Swiss brands. I'm serious; let me know.

Ghostly Presence
26-03-2009, 23:20
Ghostly, it's a matter of perspective. There's no intrinsic reason why Russia cannot produce a car the equal of a Lexus or BMW and there is no intrinsic reason why Africa cannot produce as many scientist as China - or Russia. Any country that can produce an Akula nuclear submarine can sure produce a BMW. Actually, I prefer the style of a Volga to any other current car - it just looks Russian. And there are plenty of African intellectuals. The problem is we let these stereotypes govern our view of whole groups of people and that skews our perspective on the individual. Speaking of Russian consummer goods, are Russian wrist watches any good? I like their design; I just wonder how the workmanship compares to Swiss brands. I'm serious; let me know.

I'd like to help you with the watches but I am really no expert on that. Supposedly they were fairly decent in Soviet days, but those times are long gone. Maybe someone else here knows more about that than I do.

whiterussian
27-03-2009, 15:29
I saw one of those black guys advertising the tanning place near one of the metro entrances. I was shocked. I felt as if it was I who were painted black, standing there with that stupid sign around my neck. This was humiliating and those who thing it was harmless and funny should have their balls cut and thrown away. There, Iím Russian and I hate it. But to be honest, I have nothing against Africans, Asians, or Jews but my opinion of the people from the Caucasus differs somewhat Ė I like them in Ereven or Grozny just fine but I wish they were all gone from Moscow and other Russian cities. Racist?

Wodin
27-03-2009, 15:44
But to be honest, I have nothing against Africans, Asians, or Jews but my opinion of the people from the Caucasus differs somewhat – I like them in Ereven or Grozny just fine but I wish they were all gone from Moscow and other Russian cities. Racist?

Depends. Excluding illegal imigrants, if you want the Caucasus people out of Moscow and Russian cities because you think they would be better off out, then it's not racist, but if you want them out because you (a) believe that they are a source of crime in the city just because they are from the Caucasus (sterotyping); (b) because you believe that Russian cities should be for the Russians...or in any case not for anybody whose skin is a bit darker (xenofobia); or (c) because you feel that they compete with Russians for jobs and since they accept lower wages then its unfair, the YES. It is IMMENSELY racist.

You see, you are distinguishing solely on the basis of an ethnicity. Caucasus people out! Why caucusus people? All of them? even those who hold responsible jobs? Even those who have been living legally in Russian cities for two generations? Had you said that you want all criminals (russian, tajik or french) out, that would be ok. Had you said that anybody living in Russia should be able to speak Russian and have a bit of knowledge of the way things are done in Russia, that would also be OK.

It would be a bit like me saying that I want all slavs out of Britian and British cities...

Ghostly Presence
27-03-2009, 15:55
[QUOTE=Wodin;509330] Depends. Excluding illegal imigrants, if you want the Caucasus people out of Moscow and Russian cities because you think they would be better off out, then it's not racist, but if you want them out because you (a) believe that they are a source of crime in the city just because they are from the Caucasus (sterotyping); [QUOTE]

What if statistics show that they do in fact commit a disproportionately large number of crimes in the city? Would Whiterussian still be considered racist for believing that the city would be much better off without them?

kirk10071
27-03-2009, 17:04
[quote=Wodin;509330] What if statistics show that they do in fact commit a disproportionately large number of crimes in the city? Would Whiterussian still be considered racist for believing that the city would be much better off without them?

Yes.

whiterussian
27-03-2009, 17:16
So, who benefits from such a doctrine? Or let me put it another way, how do I benefit from it?

Ghostly Presence
27-03-2009, 17:26
[quote=Ghostly Presence;509334]

Yes.

Is it racist even to just say that such statistic exists?

whiterussian
27-03-2009, 17:32
Had you said that anybody living in Russia should be able to speak Russian and have a bit of knowledge of the way things are done in Russia, that would also be OK.
Forgive me, Iíve missed this somehow. Thatís exactly the reason most (if not all) Russians want them out. They donít respect our traditions, they want to live by their own rules, they donít take even a slightest attempt to assimilate. By the way, things were different 30 years ago. Everybody who came to work and live in Moscow, would assimilate very quickly. They would try hard and pick up not only the language but the Moscow accent too. They would do everything possible not to look, sound, and behave like ďinogorodnieĒ (out of town). Today, nobody cares about that. There were not even a hint of racism in Moscow during the Soviet era. Today things indeed look pretty ugly.

AndreyS
27-03-2009, 17:40
I saw one of those black guys advertising the tanning place near one of the metro entrances. I was shocked. I felt as if it was I who were painted black, standing there with that stupid sign around my neck. This was humiliating and those who thing it was harmless and funny should have their balls cut and thrown away. There, I’m Russian and I hate it. But to be honest, I have nothing against Africans, Asians, or Jews but my opinion of the people from the Caucasus differs somewhat – I like them in Ereven or Grozny just fine but I wish they were all gone from Moscow and other Russian cities. Racist?

Why are you so concerned about that? Let them call you (ok, and me) whatever they want. You are Russian and have your own way of thinking. Westerners tend to pigeonhole people and put real life into this scheme racist-nonracist. They have their historical reasons for that. Russians don't. Let's live how we live and stick to our own values and traditions.

Ghostly Presence
27-03-2009, 17:42
Forgive me, Iíve missed this somehow. Thatís exactly the reason most (if not all) Russians want them out. They donít respect our traditions, they want to live by their own rules, they donít take even a slightest attempt to assimilate. By the way, things were different 30 years ago. Everybody who came to work and live in Moscow, would assimilate very quickly. They would try hard and pick up not only the language but the Moscow accent too. They would do everything possible not to look, sound, and behave like ďinogorodnieĒ (out of town). Today, nobody cares about that. There were not even a hint of racism in Moscow during the Soviet era. Today things indeed look pretty ugly.

If these people you are referring to are Russian citizens, then they have every right to be here, whether the local residents like it or not. However, if they are foreign, then it's a whole different ball game.

Wodin
27-03-2009, 17:46
[QUOTE=Wodin;509330] Depends. Excluding illegal imigrants, if you want the Caucasus people out of Moscow and Russian cities because you think they would be better off out, then it's not racist, but if you want them out because you (a) believe that they are a source of crime in the city just because they are from the Caucasus (sterotyping); [QUOTE]

What if statistics show that they do in fact commit a disproportionately large number of crimes in the city? Would Whiterussian still be considered racist for believing that the city would be much better off without them?

Yes. Now if WR were to wish that all criminals...or even if he were to wish that all crims not holding Russian passports, were to be kicked out...

But wanting an entire race kicked out because it is said (i wonder if it is in fact true) that much crime is committed by members of that race is wrong. As I sadi, it would be like me saying that all slavs should be kicked out of England because a number of them are criminals :)

whiterussian
27-03-2009, 17:53
I want to convert them :)

Still, there cannot be any racism in Russia. Blacks and whites in America - yes, two different races. We don't have any blacks, and Armenians is not a race. We don't like who we don't like for the same reason Germans don't like Turks or French don't like Arabs. The entire Europe has this so called problem. In America, it's all talk too. Ask any American Jew what he things about schvartzeís or an older Italian in Brooklyn what he things about Jews.

Ghostly Presence
27-03-2009, 18:00
But wanting an entire race kicked out because it is said (i wonder if it is in fact true) that much crime is committed by members of that race is wrong. As I sadi, it would be like me saying that all slavs should be kicked out of England because a number of them are criminals :)

Aren't you doing that already in the UK and in the US? ;) You don't kick certain nationalities out, per se, but you introduced a very strict visa regime to prevent certain nationals even from coming to your countries.

I guess that is one way to tackle that problem! ;) Citizens of certain countries are allowed to travel without a visa, while citizens of other countries are not because supposedly they are more likely to overstay their visa (i.e. technically commit a crime).

What is it if not racial profiling, that you, western "illuminati" are so ardently advocating against? ;) How is this any different?

Wodin
27-03-2009, 18:30
Forgive me, Iíve missed this somehow. Thatís exactly the reason most (if not all) Russians want them out. They donít respect our traditions, they want to live by their own rules, they donít take even a slightest attempt to assimilate.

Where have I heard that line of argument before?...oh yes...I read it evryday on Stormfront and I have heard it from all the European fascist parties applied to muslims, africans and indians/pakistanis.

There are three key points in that statement:

"respect our traditions", which often means "become Russians exactly like us, like the same things, follow the same religion, hold exactly the same values", which is another way of saying "hey...our values are better than theirs"...which could also be extended to mean untermenschen. Which traditions specifically would you like people from the Caucuses to respect? Would those traditions include religious ones? Should all non-russians living here do that too?

Want to live by their own rules What exactly is wrong with that as long as those rules they want to live by don't conflict with the Law of the land? If one of their rules is that their women must wear a shawl over their heads, or another rule might be that they don't eat pork, why would that bother you? Again, this "requirement" to "live by our rules" is often code for "become exactly like us because we are better".

assimilate What exactly does assimilate mean? Does it mean that they should dump their specific culture and become russians? Does it mean that they can't enjoy their musical traditions? can't speak their language? can't feel more comfortable living among other people who have also moved to Russia and who have the same traditions and culture as they do?

Sorry WR, but those three items are precisely what we mean when we state that racism is rampant here.

Ghostly Presence
27-03-2009, 18:30
Aren't you doing that already in the UK and in the US? ;) You don't kick certain nationalities out, per se, but you introduced a very strict visa regime to prevent certain nationals even from coming to your countries.

I guess that is one way to tackle that problem! ;) Citizens of certain countries are allowed to travel without a visa, while citizens of other countries are not because supposedly they are more likely to overstay their visa (i.e. technically commit a crime).

What is it if not racial profiling, that you, western "illuminati" are so ardently advocating against? ;) How is this any different?

I rest my case! :)

Jack17
27-03-2009, 18:34
I want to convert them :)

Still, there cannot be any racism in Russia. Blacks and whites in America - yes, two different races. We don't have any blacks, and Armenians is not a race. We don't like who we don't like for the same reason Germans don't like Turks or French don't like Arabs. The entire Europe has this so called problem. In America, it's all talk too. Ask any American Jew what he things about schvartzeís or an older Italian in Brooklyn what he things about Jews.
Exactly! In your answer is a wealth of information about the USA. It all depends where in the USA your are and who you speak with. If you talk to some old Italian in Brooklyn :10475: you'll get a different answer than from a businessman in LA. My point earlier in this thread was - in my lifetime, there has been tremendous change in the USA with respect to race and ethnic relations. There is racism and prejudice everywhere in the world. It varies in the US from city, class and region. In a million years, the white Europeans in Kentucky would never vote for Obama; but, most Europeans in California and New York will. The US is many different countries. By the way, do you know how many Jews it takes to make one Armenian? :yuk:Oh, sorry, that question is in bad taste.

whiterussian
27-03-2009, 19:27
I don't know, President Obama is sorta black, not really black :) I would probably vote for him too, but some Americans in the Tri-State area that I still keep in touch with are extremely unhappy (to say the least) with this election. Russians making the ice-cream jokes don't feel any hatred towards blacks in general. Hey, look at the Hip-Hop scene in Russia! These kids all want to be black and Timothy (the Tadjik rapper pretending to be black) is a super star. Rumor has it, he did a recording with Snoop Dog recently. Kids can't wait for it to be released. What racism? :)

whiterussian
27-03-2009, 19:43
Wodin,

In Russia, we live "po ponyatiam", not by law, well, for the most part. This means that we rely on each other to understand and accept the basic rules of behavior. When we do or don't do something, it's that unwritten code that makes us behave in that way or another, not the fear of law and punishment. It's a questionable quality, I know, but that's the way it is. So, understanding and following these rules is important. Europeans and Americans live strictly by law. Chechens and other nationalities from that region have very strong tribal laws ("zakony gor"), so when they come here and continue living by them, they don't necessarily break the law but they come into a full blown conflict with the Russian way of life (hmm, where I've heard that before? Protecting our way of life?). They know it, they are fine with it, and they are not going to change it. This doesn't make us happy. As simple as that.

Wodin
27-03-2009, 20:20
WR, I know exactly what you mean. We have the same thing with minorities in the UK. Most of them live in what I call ghettoes (ie an area where black people only live, or an area where asian people only live, etc) and completely refuse or are unable to adapt to out way of life. That creates conflicts and misunderstandings. I mean, how exactly do you explain to someone that destroying a billboard because it has an advertisment showing a scantily clad woman is something that you cannot do? Some of the minorities do not even speak English.

For the most part, these ghettoes are simply ignored by most Brits..pure and simple. So we lead seperate lives a couple of hundred meters from eachother.

What we have found is that their children however, or their children's children, move out of the ghetto, and become more "english".

But to talk of kicking them out just because their culture is different is not correct (unless they are here illegally that is).

Someone suggested tightening up on imigration rules. Yes sure...that's probably the way to go, except that it does not solve the question of where Russia will get enough people to work to support its development given the declining population trends...

Jack17
27-03-2009, 20:42
Wodin,

In Russia, we live "po ponyatiam", not by law, well, for the most part. This means that we rely on each other to understand and accept the basic rules of behavior. When we do or don't do something, it's that unwritten code that makes us behave in that way or another, not the fear of law and punishment. It's a questionable quality, I know, but that's the way it is. So, understanding and following these rules is important. Europeans and Americans live strictly by law. Chechens and other nationalities from that region have very strong tribal laws ("zakony gor"), so when they come here and continue living by them, they don't necessarily break the law but they come into a full blown conflict with the Russian way of life (hmm, where I've heard that before? Protecting our way of life?). They know it, they are fine with it, and they are not going to change it. This doesn't make us happy. As simple as that.
:book: "Strictly by law?" I don't think so. You see, here is a misconception and maybe a Russian prejudice about Americans: it's akin to saying we are not cultured. I'll give you one unwritten law in America - when you meet someone and shake their hand you smile. Obviously, this is not the custom in Russia. In America, it is important to indicate you are happy to meet someone. In Russia, it is important to be "serious." One is not better or worse than the other; just different. There are hundreds of other unwritten laws in America, Italy, France, etc. Believe me, American society and certainly Western European is no less prescribed than Russian society. In fact, I will say the unwritten laws are more important than those is some State or Federal Code.:9451::rules:

whiterussian
27-03-2009, 20:54
All right, I stand corrected. Deporting ALL Armenians from Russia is not good. Ghettos is not good either (I definitely donít want Moscow to turn into New York City). Will their children be more Russian and "svoi"? I think it is definitely possible in Moscow, time will tell.

whiterussian
27-03-2009, 21:15
:book: "Strictly by law?" I don't think so. You see, here is a misconception and maybe a Russian prejudice about Americans: it's akin to saying we are not cultured. I'll give you one unwritten law in America - when you meet someone and shake their hand you smile. Obviously, this is not the custom in Russia. In America, it is important to indicate you are happy to meet someone. In Russia, it is important to be "serious." One is not better or worse than the other; just different. There are hundreds of other unwritten laws in America, Italy, France, etc. Believe me, American society and certainly Western European is no less prescribed than Russian society. In fact, I will say the unwritten laws are more important than those is some State or Federal Code.:9451::rules:
I didnít mean it in a bad kind of way. Law is good, law is right, law works. I whish we had at least some law in Russia. I didnít mean to say you are all robots, or that you are smiling because thereís a law that says that you have to. I meant something different when I said that in Russia we interact with each other using other virtues as guidelines. Here, you have a choice to kick someoneís ass if you want to and nothing will happen to you, but you donít do it if the other guy is ďhoroshi chelovekĒ. In other countries you donít do it because itís barbaric and a normal person would not even have such thoughts. Here, we all want to kill each other (hence no smiling or friendliness on the streets), but something keeps us from doing so, and this something is not the law. I donít know, perhaps Iím not an expert on the subject and shouldnít be writing this stuff pretending that I am, but I think Iím somewhere close to the truth, whatever it might be.

TGP
28-03-2009, 00:15
[QUOTE=kirk10071;509353]

Is it racist even to just say that such statistic exists?

It is racist even to think about such statistics

Strider
28-03-2009, 00:43
[QUOTE=Ghostly Presence;509367]

It is racist even to think about such statistics

is it racist to think about racism?

whiterussian
28-03-2009, 01:11
It will soon be considered racist to even say the "R" word.

kirk10071
28-03-2009, 08:58
It is racist even to think about such statistics

And the answer is: Yes, if you are doing so to find evidence to fit your pre-conceived notions about this or that nationality.

Please note that your quote of me is not my quote.

Cap'n Albatross
28-03-2009, 12:01
What if statistics show that they do in fact commit a disproportionately large number of crimes in the city? Would Whiterussian still be considered racist for believing that the city would be much better off without them?

This is a little hypothetical. Even if we did have statistics that indicated this, we would need to think a lot more deeply about the issue.

1 - we would need to know whether the statistic were correct. What was the methodology used to generate this statistic? What is the motivation of the person generating the statistic? How do we measure a crime ? What counts? Should we give different weights to different crimes and, if so, how? How do you compare a single instance of pickpocketing with the billions of dollars stolen by Bernie Madoff? What about non-financial crime? What about unreported crime - Driving under the influence of alcohol is a crime but most times it will not get into crime statistics.

2 - we need to understand the underlying cause. Could it be caused by another factor ? A hypothetical example could be that poverty is a much more powerful indicator of likelihood to commit crime and that people from X-istan are more likely to be poor. Anther example could be police racism. When trying to solve a crime, they may be more likely to investigate people from ethnic minority backgrounds resulting in more apparent crimes per head of population in this community.

3 - we need to think about materiality. Let us assume we have rock solid evidence that ethnic minorities are twice as likely to commit a crime and it the reason for it was their race. (Which we don't.) It may be that 1% of the slav population commit a crime in a given period and 2% of the ethnic minority population. Would you really advocate kicking out a whole ethnic group where 98% of them had done nothing wrong ? (Again - hypothetical but so is the initial statement.)

4 - Where do we stop with a policy like this ? If we remove ethnic minorities because they are more likely to commit crime, do we look for the next minority that commits a higher than average level of crime ? Perhaps it's people with blond hair or maybe they are better than average in which case we kick out all those who don't have blond hair. Blue eyes? People over 1,7m tall ? Teenagers. Men in their twenties ?

If we are really interested in reducing crime, we need to ensure our approach isn't too simplistic. As I've said, there is a lot here that's hypothetical starting with the initial statement about certain ethnic minorities committing a disproportionate amount of crime. I haven't seen any crime statistics. If you do have some, they would need a thorough examination with a detailed assessment of different potential solutions.

Of course, we may just have a solution (kick them out) looking for a problem to solve (crime) rather than the other way around. If that's true then I would expect only a superficial assessment of the problem leading to the pre-determined answer.

DDT
28-03-2009, 12:44
Forgive me, Iíve missed this somehow. Thatís exactly the reason most (if not all) Russians want them out. They donít respect our traditions, they want to live by their own rules, they donít take even a slightest attempt to assimilate. By the way, things were different 30 years ago. Everybody who came to work and live in Moscow, would assimilate very quickly. They would try hard and pick up not only the language but the Moscow accent too. They would do everything possible not to look, sound, and behave like ďinogorodnieĒ (out of town). Today, nobody cares about that. There were not even a hint of racism in Moscow during the Soviet era. Today things indeed look pretty ugly.

You're not racist Whiterussian! But these guys on on this forum are the typical degenerated, self loathing, Liberal thinking people that now infest much of the West. They hate their own culture and think that you should hate yours too. You and most Russians have pride in their heritage.....these guys here despise their ancectors. And they will try to convince you that you are racist if you want your children to live in the same culture customs and traditions that you so lived. They will say that anyone is a racist that does not think as them! But this is how they spread and infect the dull witted and emotionally immature people around them. Don't fall for their suicidal babble. Throw these expats, who think like these guys on Expats RU, out of your country before they infect Russia too!

Most of the people on this forum hate the white color of their own skin and that is why they are trying to convince you that you should be tolerant to invading Africans and others who will change your country for the worse. You see, they wouldn't say these to things to Japanese, if they were in Japan. And as we know, Japan is very intolerant to foreigners because they want to keep their heritage. And rightly so I think! Nobody says anything to the Japanese about this. No one ever calls them racists. But Russians are white, so they will come under attack from the self loathing Westerners.
Given all this, if you think about it, they are the real racists and the Liberal and "tolerant" types on this forum.

Cap'n Albatross
28-03-2009, 14:32
You're not racist Whiterussian! But these guys on on this forum are the typical degenerated, self loathing, Liberal thinking people that now infest much of the West. They hate their own culture and think that you should hate yours too. You and most Russians have pride in their heritage.....these guys here despise their ancectors. And they will try to convince you that you are racist if you want your children to live in the same culture customs and traditions that you so lived. They will say that anyone is a racist that does not think as them! But this is how they spread and infect the dull witted and emotionally immature people around them. Don't fall for their suicidal babble. Throw these expats, who think like these guys on Expats RU, out of your country before they infect Russia too!

Most of the people on this forum hate the white color of their own skin and that is why they are trying to convince you that you should be tolerant to invading Africans and others who will change your country for the worse. You see, they wouldn't say these to things to Japanese, if they were in Japan. And as we know, Japan is very intolerant to foreigners because they want to keep their heritage. And rightly so I think! Nobody says anything to the Japanese about this. No one ever calls them racists. But Russians are white, so they will come under attack from the self loathing Westerners.
Given all this, if you think about it, they are the real racists and the Liberal and "tolerant" types on this forum.

That's quite an emotive set of statements. Where do I start my response?

I'm not self-loathing. In fact, I think I'm quite a nice person. One of the reasons that I think that is that, in general, I like other people regardless of background. I certainly don't hate the colour of my own skin. Neither do I hate that of other people.

I do not hate my own culture. It is this culture (which is liberal) that has helped shape my values. These values include tolerance and curiosity.
DDT - Isn't this the same culture that you want to preserve ?

Culture is an emergent property of the people who share it. It can be changed by those people if enough of them feel the same way. I think people have a duty to try to change their society for the better. Societies in the West have been increasingly liberal over the last few centuries and, in my opinion, are much the better for it. One of the better aspect of Western liberal culture is that you are encouraged to think for yourself. As a result, many people realise that they do not have to accept all aspects of their culture and society or none. I for one do not accept that everything about the West is perfect and believe that more tolerance and understanding there would be better.

Similarly, I do not think that Russian people should hate their culture. I do think they should recognise and discriminate between the positive aspects of their culture (and there are many) and the negative aspects (of which there are some).

I guess it's much easier for you know more about what I would or would not say to a Japanese person than I do. Maybe it's the special insight afforded those with a xenophobic worldview. If I had been on a Japanese website and the same things had been posted then I would say the same as I have here.

I would never say that "The Japanese are racist" and I would never say that "The Russians are racist". That's not a permissible statement for a tolerant liberal to make. It's much easier to stereotype about a lot of people you haven't met or talked to if you are a bigot. Also, based on my personal experience, neither statement would be correct. Very few of the Russian or Japanese people that I have met have said or done anything racist in front of me. Having said that some of the views posted on this website are less than tolerant and would certainly be considered racist in the West. I do think these views should be challenged but in a rational rather than emotional manner.

In short, pretty well everything you said is incorrect if applied to me and I suspect to the other tolerant liberals too. Is there any chance that we can have a more logical and balanced discussion in future ? If things degenerate to trading insults and sweeping stereotypes then it is the least intelligent person who wins.

Korotky Gennady
28-03-2009, 15:21
Please note that your quote of me is not my quote.
Is it a quote of MissAnn ? :eh:

MickeyTong
28-03-2009, 16:05
Well said, Cap'n.







Actually, DDT is a person who is too embarrassed to admit his nation of origin.

Korotky Gennady
28-03-2009, 16:13
Hell ! Let's talk about racism... By the way whiterussian what do you want to mean by that that you are a 'whiterussian'... What ? Do you want to say that there are whiterussians and there are blackrussians, and brownrussians !? Every your post is the direct insult to all the blackrussians here ! And you even insult Obama too becoz he can't say that he is white and a russian...


Please choose for youself more neutral nickname... the one like "russianbear" for example. And this your new nick will be neutral and funny with a shadow of light self-irony...

TGP
28-03-2009, 17:58
And the answer is: Yes, if you are doing so to find evidence to fit your pre-conceived notions about this or that nationality.

Please note that your quote of me is not my quote.

I never ever thought to quote you. It is my answer (not question) to Ghostly Presence.
Your words poped up as an accompaniment.

TGP
28-03-2009, 18:12
[QUOTE=TGP;509506]

is it racist to think about racism?

Depends on how much you think about it. Though, if it's a question number one on your agenda and becomes an obsession, it is more likely a matter of a mental disorder.

Jack17
28-03-2009, 19:26
I didnít mean it in a bad kind of way. Law is good, law is right, law works. I whish we had at least some law in Russia. I didnít mean to say you are all robots, or that you are smiling because thereís a law that says that you have to. I meant something different when I said that in Russia we interact with each other using other virtues as guidelines. Here, you have a choice to kick someoneís ass if you want to and nothing will happen to you, but you donít do it if the other guy is ďhoroshi chelovekĒ. In other countries you donít do it because itís barbaric and a normal person would not even have such thoughts. Here, we all want to kill each other (hence no smiling or friendliness on the streets), but something keeps us from doing so, and this something is not the law. I donít know, perhaps Iím not an expert on the subject and shouldnít be writing this stuff pretending that I am, but I think Iím somewhere close to the truth, whatever it might be.
Whiterussian, I understand exactly; in fact, though I am not Russian, I get the same understanding as you about everyday life in Russia. As for kicking someone's ass who deserves it, that's one of the attractive things about Russia. Of course, you can't do it in the US because lawyers (advocati) control society in the US the same way Stalin and Beria controled life in Moscow 70 years ago. You can't do anything for fear of being sued in the US - advocati rules!:redcard:

vox16
28-03-2009, 23:39
if you make a joke about someone's color or genetic features, that is racist.

Jokes about Michael Jackson's nose count?

vox16
29-03-2009, 00:02
GP, by the way russians had white slaves up to the 1860s and millions the white slaves were treated like animals sometimes but russian tv and russian state bosses today don't feel the government's guilt for that...

Because USSR has never declared itself successor of Tsar's rule, but rather new state ruled by that yesterday slaves. Today Russian elite are not that 19 century nobles either - what should they feel guilty for?

DDT
29-03-2009, 01:08
Hell ! Let's talk about racism... By the way whiterussian what do you want to mean by that that you are a 'whiterussian'... What ? Do you want to say that there are whiterussians and there are blackrussians, and brownrussians !? Every your post is the direct insult to all the blackrussians here ! And you even insult Obama too becoz he can't say that he is white and a russian...


Please choose for youself more neutral nickname... the one like "russianbear" for example. And this your new nick will be neutral and funny with a shadow of light self-irony...
A "white Russian" is a drink, and so is a black Russian!
White Russian has vodka, kaluah .....plus milk! Black Russian....no milk.


PS: Any reason...is a good reason to insult the filth known as Obama!

Jack17
29-03-2009, 01:26
Jokes about Michael Jackson's nose count?
:10600: No, it's not really his nose.

whiterussian
30-03-2009, 04:45
A "white Russian" is a drink, and so is a black Russian!
White Russian has vodka, kaluah .....plus milk! Black Russian....no milk.
PS: Any reason...is a good reason to insult the filth known as Obama!
Thank you :)

whiterussian
30-03-2009, 04:48
Hell ! Let's talk about racism... By the way whiterussian what do you want to mean by that that you are a 'whiterussian'... What ? Do you want to say that there are whiterussians and there are blackrussians, and brownrussians !? Every your post is the direct insult to all the blackrussians here ! And you even insult Obama too becoz he can't say that he is white and a russian...


Please choose for youself more neutral nickname... the one like "russianbear" for example. And this your new nick will be neutral and funny with a shadow of light self-irony...

Spokoyno, Jackson.

whiterussian
30-03-2009, 04:58
You're not racist Whiterussian! But these guys on on this forum are the typical degenerated, self loathing, Liberal thinking people that now infest much of the West. They hate their own culture and think that you should hate yours too. You and most Russians have pride in their heritage.....these guys here despise their ancectors. And they will try to convince you that you are racist if you want your children to live in the same culture customs and traditions that you so lived. They will say that anyone is a racist that does not think as them! But this is how they spread and infect the dull witted and emotionally immature people around them. Don't fall for their suicidal babble. Throw these expats, who think like these guys on Expats RU, out of your country before they infect Russia too!

Most of the people on this forum hate the white color of their own skin and that is why they are trying to convince you that you should be tolerant to invading Africans and others who will change your country for the worse. You see, they wouldn't say these to things to Japanese, if they were in Japan. And as we know, Japan is very intolerant to foreigners because they want to keep their heritage. And rightly so I think! Nobody says anything to the Japanese about this. No one ever calls them racists. But Russians are white, so they will come under attack from the self loathing Westerners.
Given all this, if you think about it, they are the real racists and the Liberal and "tolerant" types on this forum.

He is right. Sorry, but that's how I feel. Who can argue with the Japan argument? It takes 25 years to get a Japanese citizenship. It takes only 5 in the US.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 10:31
Do you guys want to see the picture to which the article in the original post referred and that started this lengthy discussion? I don't know about you, but to me there is nothing racist or vicious about this ad:

Carbo
30-03-2009, 11:20
Do you guys want to see the picture to which the article in the original post referred and that started this lengthy discussion? I don't know about you, but to me there is nothing racist or vicious about this ad:
And herein lies the problem.

You, GP, associate racism with viciousness. You need to shift paradigms and realise that any insulting or offensive language or actions based on race is racist.

Not just the vicious stuff.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 11:50
And herein lies the problem.

You, GP, associate racism with viciousness. You need to shift paradigms and realise that any insulting or offensive language or actions based on race is racist.

Not just the vicious stuff.

I agree! Insulting or effensive would be...well, insulting or offensive, regardless of race! Not so long ago a Russian modern art exhibit was shut down because some representatives of the Russian Orthodox Church thought that some of the pictures of Christ were offensive.

In this case I see absolutely nothing offensive about this particular ad. If anything, the image on it is somewhat charming.

Like I already said, everyhting is good within limits. Any good idea or benign intentions can be taken to the point of ridiculous.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 12:10
You're not racist Whiterussian! But these guys on on this forum are the typical degenerated, self loathing, Liberal thinking people that now infest much of the West. They hate their own culture and think that you should hate yours too. You and most Russians have pride in their heritage.....these guys here despise their ancectors. And they will try to convince you that you are racist if you want your children to live in the same culture customs and traditions that you so lived. They will say that anyone is a racist that does not think as them! But this is how they spread and infect the dull witted and emotionally immature people around them. Don't fall for their suicidal babble. Throw these expats, who think like these guys on Expats RU, out of your country before they infect Russia too!

Most of the people on this forum hate the white color of their own skin and that is why they are trying to convince you that you should be tolerant to invading Africans and others who will change your country for the worse. You see, they wouldn't say these to things to Japanese, if they were in Japan. And as we know, Japan is very intolerant to foreigners because they want to keep their heritage. And rightly so I think! Nobody says anything to the Japanese about this. No one ever calls them racists. But Russians are white, so they will come under attack from the self loathing Westerners.
Given all this, if you think about it, they are the real racists and the Liberal and "tolerant" types on this forum.
I honestly don't know why you're allowed to get away with this hate-filled, half-baked racist bullsh1t, Grand Dragon DDT.

I love my culture, and, as a Brit, I think we as a nation and a people have much to be proud of. I really think Britain stands up to any country in terms of its contribution to literature, music, philosophy, science, sport, law, human rights, democracy, and the social sciences.

Who could not be proud to come from the country that gave the world (just off the top of my head) Newton, Darwin, Shakespeare, Dickens, the Magna Carta (i.e. the rule of law over the rule of kings), Byron, Football, Rugby, Jane Austen, James Joyce, Edmund Burke, Oscar Wilde, the Beatles, Adam Smith, John Maynard Keynes, Habeas Corpus, the House of Commons and Parliament, Winston Churchill, Bertrand Russell, David Hume, George Orwell, John Stuart Mill, Rudyard Kipling, the Brontes, Elgar, Emmeline Pankhurst and the Suffragette movement, the steam engine, railways, the industrial revolution, the Rolling Stones, Led Zeppelin, the Sex Pistols, David Bowie, the Lord of the Rings, and Charles Dickens.

Among that lot is the father of economics, Smith, and the most important economist of the 20th century (probably ever), Keynes. There is the father of modern physics (and one of the most important mathematicians and physicists ever), Newton. The foundation of all modern law and most of what is considered democracy, EVERY SINGLE ONE (bar Dylan) OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL MUSICIANS OF THE 20TH CENTURY. Probably the most influential and important writers in the English language ever (probably 4 of the top ten, at worst), the most important philosophers outside Greece and Germany, and the foundations of all modern day economies and industry. There is also the foundation of female liberation, and let’s not forget, while I didn’t mention it in my list, Britain abolished slavery and used its naval power to enforce it, and while Russia was carving up Poland with Stalin’s best friend, Hitler, Britain was standing up for the Poles, despite the terrible cost to itself and the daunting odds.

Don’t say I’m not proud of my culture and heritage.

The problem is that you are not proud of yours. If you are American, then I am disgusted because you are a disgrace to your nation. I hope you come from some kind of intolerant, religious dictatorship, like Iran, but I suspect you’re American, which makes me want to weep. You have basically used the American flag to wipe your lips when you’ve finished sucking on the sewer pipe of intellectual thought. You are a disgrace. You have forsaken the heritage of acceptance and tolerance in favour of sucking liquid faeces from the sewer pipe of racism and hate.

Phrases like “invading Africans” who “will change your country for the worse” let us all know that you’ve been straining turd through your teeth for too long..

First, just because one is tolerant of different cultures – or like me, finds much of interest – doesn’t mean one does not like one’s own culture. For instance, I love American culture, and love 20th century American English Lit. That doesn’t mean I suddenly despise Shakespeare. I like Thomas Jefferson, but it doesn’t make me feel less for Churchill.

Second, there are plenty of countries with less than permissive immigration laws. For instance, Switzerland, which last time I looked was a mostly white country, by the way, has terribly tough immigration laws. But then I don’t see the Swiss kicking the cr@p out of immigrants on the Bern tram system and videoing the antics and putting them up on SwissTube. Nor do I hear stories about Swiss tanning salons hiring black people to advertise their services. But immigration is not the issue – RACE is. And Japan apologized for its disgusting and racist past, by the way.

And it’s not just Russians who cop stick. Silvio Berlusconi anyone??

Bottom line: America was built on immigration. There are STILL after many generations pockets of Russians, Greeks, Jews, Poles, Italians, Germans, etc. Yet it is the strongest nation on earth and has not lost its culture. Britain has high immigration, and has come into contact with many different cultures, yet in retains its heritage.

Why are different cultures something to fear? There is not one single reason to think that one culture will “die” or change for the worse given contact with another – and CERTAINLY not any reason to think this will happen because of contact with a couple of thousand black students from Africa who want to get educated at Russian universities.

America was built on the premise that all men were equal, that men were ruled by the rule of law, not by the rule of tyrants, that any many could come to America and fulfill his dream if he worked hard and stuck to the rules, and that all religions could be worshiped freely, (as Thomas Jefferson wrote). And America is the largest economy now, has the most vibrant culture, and has produced some of the most enlightened leaders and finest minds of the 20th century.

There is NO ROOM IN THAT FOR RACISM OR REGLIGIOUS HATRED.

You make me laugh and cry, you sewer-pipe sucking grand wizard.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 12:16
Carbo,

A long time ago I saw a very strange Russian film. It was a grotesque depiction of a society where people decided to take pride in one particular aspect of their Russian heritage, namely, in Pushkin and his poetry. It all started well, until some began to take this idea too far. Soon enough they had commando teams that were looking for those who did not exhibit their adherence to the main object of the national pride ardently enough and persecuted them.

I remember I liked that film. It was a good illustration to what some ancient philosopher used to say: ďTake any good idea, throw it into the crowd and it will get inevitable debased by itĒ.

Adamodeus
30-03-2009, 12:18
Interesting discussion, guys!

I feel that both sides are right and wrong.

On the one hand, racism is definitely ingrained in Russia as a society. TGP, just about anyone I know in this country (yes, with some notable exceptions that prove the rule) would think nothing of calling a dark-skinned foreigner "chernozhopiy" (black-assed). I've heard it so many times from so many different people from various social strata that I find it very hard to defend a statement like "Russians are not racist". This kind of primitive racism is so deeply ingrained into Russian society as a whole that most of those people using derogatory terms towards Caucasians (real Caucasians, not the dumb and ridiculous American term for white people) don't consider themselves racist at all. It would be funny if it weren't so ugly. Yes, I can generalize - Russians are racist on a certain level. When we generalize, it goes without saying that we understand there are many many exceptions, but they are called exceptions for a reason.

On the other hand... Cap'n Albatross, you're a true western liberal, but unfortunately, liberalism in the west, that has been the progressive driving force of our society for two centuries is now imploding. Western liberals today are absolutely terrified of saying something that can be considered a generalization because it would upset someone, but you just can't go through life being a sponge. There is an increasing number of self-imposed rules in western societies that are actually curbing freedoms (of speech, of expression, etc.) - the very principles western societies are based on. The subject of race today is generally a taboo topic, for instance. You speak of racial issues - you better damn well walk on eggshells! And yet, only if you're white! Let's look at this example and perhaps you could tell me what you think of it:

From Jerry McGuire (the movie):
"Baby, this is us. We determine our worth. You are a strong, proud, surviving, splendid black man." - We think: "Awww, how heart-warming!"

But what if Renťe Zellweger said this to Tom Cruise:
"Baby, this is us. We determine our worth. You are a strong, proud, surviving, splendid white man." - We think: "Why did she have to bring 'white' into it?!"

As a liberal who is afraid of hurting anyone's feelings, do explain why it is perfectly acceptable (and even encouraged) that African-Americans can be proud of their skin color, but even one mention of his/her skin color by a white person will automatically make him/her a Hitler lover? Black people routinely and emphatically stress their own skin color and take pride in it - "I'm a black man and I'm proud" - but if I, for instance, say "I"m a white man and I'm proud" people will ask me to stick my KKK membership card up my ass. What gives?

This is clear from the fact more Americans voted for an African American for President than have ever voted for any candidate for US national office.
Jack! When will you - and just about everybody else in America - explain why Obama is an African-American? The last time I checked, a person with one white parent and one black parent - which accurately describes Barack Obama - was half-white and half-black - a mulatto. Please, tell me, why do you willingly choose to ignore his European heritage? And why, oh, why, do some people on this forum now surely think I'm a closet racist just because I had the audacity to bring this up? What is this situation if not flagrant racism?

When do you think a majority of Russians will vote for a Chechen as Russian President?
The Russians elected a Scandinavian as their leader as early as 882 AD. And by the way, at the time when every white person in America still thought that the "damn niggers" were only good for shining their shoes, the Russians already had different various ethnic non-Russians leading their government: Lenin was a Jew, Stalin was a Georgian, Khrushchev was a Ukrainian, Brezhnev was a Moldovan, Chernenko was a Ukrainian... well, you get the picture.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 12:24
Interesting look at racism on Willem Buiter's FT blog. You might find it easier to digest since it is about racism against white people. Read it:


The president of Brasil, Lula da Silva, at a joint press conference on the 27th of March 2009 with Gordon Brown, the UK prime minister, made the following statement: “This crisis was caused by the irrational behaviour of white people with blue eyes, who before the crisis appeared to know everything and now demonstrate that they know nothing.”

That statement is not merely ignorant and stupid. That statement is racist. As a white person with blue eyes, I am offended by it. I am waiting for Mr. Lula da Silva’s apology to the entire population of white people with blue eyes.

Having a white skin and blue eyes is clearly not necessary for causing the crisis. I am sure Citi CEO Vikram Pandit wants to claim at least some of the credit for the crisis. His predecessor, Chuck Prince is white but does not have blue eyes. He was named by Fortune Magazine In 2008 as one of eight economic leaders “who didn’t [see] the crisis coming”, and identified in January 2009 by Guardian City editor Julia Finch as one of twenty five people who were at the heart of the financial meltdown. He also made the famous statement in July 2007 that : “When the music stops, in terms of liquidity, things will be complicated. But as long as the music is playing, you’ve got to get up and dance. We’re still dancing”. E. Stanley O’Neal, the former chairman, president and chief executive officer of Merrill Lynch, is an African American (I don’t know his eye colour).

Having a white skin and blue eyes is clearly not sufficient for causing the crisis or contributing to it. I will spare the readers of this blog the list of names of white people with blue eyes who did not cause this crisis.

President Lula da Silva may want to defend his racist remark by noting that white people with blue eyes were disproportionately represented among those who caused the crisis or contributed to it. He would no doubt be right. He also would be advised to take an introductory course on the distinction between statistical correlation/association and causation. Concepts like spurious correlation, omitted variables (wealth, cl**** education, gender to name but four of the most obvious ones), and common third factors driving a statistical association between two variables, would represent a welcome addition to the intellectual capital of the Brazilian president.

President Lula da Silva’s statement is an example of inappropriate racial profiling. Wikipedia defines racial profiling as “the inclusion of racial or ethnic characteristics in determining whether a person is considered likely to commit a particular type of crime or an illegal act or to behave in a “predictable” manner.”

For the would-be defenders of president Lula da Silva, let me be clear about what I mean by racism. I again use a definition drawn from Wikipedia: “Racism, by its simplest definition is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. People with racist beliefs exhibit stereotype-based prejudices towards individuals and groups of people according to their race.”

Note that I am condemning the sin, not the sinner. I am not saying the president Lula da Silva is a racist. All I am asserting is that the statement he made - that white people with blue eyes are responsible for the crisis - is a racist statement.

To those who believe that a statement that is racist according to the definition quoted from Wikipedia is not really racist unless it is directed at a racial or ethnic group that is weak, oppressed or at the bottom of the social totem pole, I recommend a regular washing of the mind with soap and water.

The weak and the poor, and billions of others who are quite innocent of the mistakes, excesses and crimes that brought us the crisis are not helped by facile racist remarks attributing blame for the crisis coming from the leader of one of the key emerging markets. Racial divisions and stigmatization according to eye colour will not help humanity crawl out of the hole it is in. We have to pull together. President Lula da Silva’s statement threatens to pull us apart.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 13:55
Adamodeus, bravo! An excellent post!

I guess the bottom line to this discussion is that we are all different, thank God! As long as we are different and human, we will always find reasons to make jokes about our differences, often times not very flattering ones. Because we are human and therefore by definition imperfect, we will continue to misunderstand each other’s ways and traditions, and even dislike them in some cases. Surely, there will always be people who might find a joke and a picture offensive – those with a lack of humor or an oversensitive personality.

So what? As long as we don’t make anyone sit in the back of the bus and curtail certain individuals rights’ and freedoms based on their ethnicity, I frankly don’t see a problem.

Racial violence is an entirely different matter. As any other kind of violence it should be dealt with by police and courts.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 14:06
Adamodeus, bravo! An excellent post!

I guess the bottom line to this discussion is that we are all different, thank God! As long as we are different and human, we will always find reasons to make jokes about our differences, often times not very flattering ones. Because we are human and therefore by definition imperfect, we will continue to misunderstand each other’s ways and traditions, and even dislike them in some cases. Surely, there will always be people who might find a joke and a picture offensive – those with a lack of humor or an oversensitive personality.

So what? As long as we don’t make anyone sit in the back of the bus and curtail certain individuals rights’ and freedoms based on their ethnicity, I frankly don’t see a problem.

Racial violence is an entirely different matter. As any other kind of violence it should be dealt with by police and courts.
So you don't see a problem mocking people because of the colour of their skin. You don't see a problem stereotyping and profiling based on race? You don't see a problem with that at all?

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 14:25
So you don't see a problem mocking people because of the colour of their skin. You don't see a problem stereotyping and profiling based on race? You don't see a problem with that at all?

Do you think that the ice cream ad that I posted above mocks black people? I don’t. I see it as good-humored and I don’t see anything mocking about it. If you do, then our tastes and perceptions differ and it would be pointless to discuss this any further because tastes are very subjective.

A happy smiling cartoon-like picture of a black man cannot possibly be degrading. If it is, then every cartoon that ever depicted a black man should be banned because it is racist. And that would be just plain crazy.

I think the important determining factor in such cases is intent. Surely, if a person draws a picture that aims to ridicule and debase a certain ethnicity, then it might be racist, even though let’s not forget about free speech. If a picture is just innocent fun, as in this case, there is nothing racist about it.

That’s the way I see it.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 15:09
Do you think that the ice cream ad that I posted above mocks black people? I don’t. I see it as good-humored and I don’t see anything mocking about it. If you do, then our tastes and perceptions differ and it would be pointless to discuss this any further because tastes are very subjective.

A happy smiling cartoon-like picture of a black man cannot possibly be degrading. If it is, then every cartoon that ever depicted a black man should be banned because it is racist. And that would be just plain crazy.

I think the important determining factor in such cases is intent. Surely, if a person draws a picture that aims to ridicule and debase a certain ethnicity, then it might be racist, even though let’s not forget about free speech. If a picture is just innocent fun, as in this case, there is nothing racist about it.

That’s the way I see it.
Making jokes about somebody's skin colour is not good humoured. It is tastelessly humoured.

Making jokes about the colour of somebody's skin is wrong.

I don't know how much clearer I can be about this.

I don't like it when people at home make jokes about all Russian girls being whores who'll do anything to marry a western guy and move out of Russia, or when people view all Russian men as lazy wife beating drunkards. Of course, it's good humoured to the people who make the jokes, but I still don't like it.

Nobody, and not ever me, said that stopping making jokes about black people based on the colour of their skin would mean removing all black figures from cartoons. That's just not the case. What it would mean, however, is not making jokes based on skin colour.

Honestly, the biggest joke here is that Russians are so sensitive themselves about being joked about.

They burst into collective indignation when somebody says anything negative about Russians. But when the boot's on the other foot, "it's all good humoured fun".

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 15:20
America was built on the premise that all men were equal, that men were ruled by the rule of law, not by the rule of tyrants, that any many could come to America and fulfill his dream if he worked hard and stuck to the rules, and that all religions could be worshiped freely, (as Thomas Jefferson wrote). And America is the largest economy now, has the most vibrant culture, and has produced some of the most enlightened leaders and finest minds of the 20th century.



Funny, but somehow you forget to mention that a lot of wealth in the US was built on slave labor... Also, the fact that blacks had to sit in the back of the bus as recently as 1960s seems to have slipped your mind...

None of it ever happened in Russia.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 15:30
Funny, but somehow you forget to mention that a lot of wealth in the US was built on slave labor... Also, the fact that blacks had to sit in the back of the bus as recently as 1960s also seems to have skipped your mind...
No, it happened, and it remains a disgraceful carbunckle on the face of American history, and still affects black people today.

And then our resident Grand Wizard has the nerve to talk about "Africans invading" and "changing culture for the worse."

But, please bear in mind when you criticise that, that around the same time as Lincoln was freeing the slaves by entering into civil war (which DDT probably disagrees with) against the southern leaders who wanted to keep slavery (for whom DDT is probably an apologist), Alexander the second was emancipting the serfs.

And just a little after America was FINALLY, thanks to another liberal, LBJ, and opposed by conservative southerners (Dems and Reps, bother guilty), removing apartheid and integrating schools and universities in the Jim Crow south, Russia was invading Czechoslovakia to crush the Prague spring and protect its empire, which lasted through to the mid 80s -- even longer than the British empire.

Now, speaking of the British empire, we did some pretty dreadful, reprehensible things in our time -- in India, Africa, China, everywhere we went.

So we're all guilty. And that doesn't make racism ok now.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 15:33
They burst into collective indignation when somebody says anything negative about Russians. But when the boot's on the other foot, "it's all good humoured fun".

That is a well-known Russian national trait. Zadornov actually has a joke about it. He says, we are a nation that would try to prove to a foreigner that our country is the worst on the planet as hard as we possibly can, but as soon as he agrees with it, we punch him in the face. )))

Carbo
30-03-2009, 15:38
That is a well-known Russian national trait. Zadornov actually has a joke about it. He says, we are a nation that would try to prove to a foreigner that our country is the worst on the planet as hard as we possibly can, but as soon as he agrees with it, we punch him in the face. )))
Now that's funny.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 15:43
Carbo,

I believe the invasion of Czechoslovakia had nothing to do with racism – we are veering too far away from the subject of this particular discussion.

About apartheid – one thing I remember when growing up is that Russian papers always did two things: they published caricatures and articles exposing the ugly face of apartheid in South Africa on one hand, and they also mentioned South Africa among the list of developed countries on par with France, UK and Germany.

I have not heard that country mentioned in above company of nations for a very long time. What happened? I know that there was a massive outflow of white South Africans after apartheid came to its end. Could it be that the white South Africans were the driving force behind the economic success of that country?

It certainly looks that way.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 15:44
Carbo,

I believe the invasion of Czechoslovakia had nothing to do with racism – we are veering too far away from the subject of this particular discussion.
No, it had nothing to do with racism, but it goes to show that moist countries have nasty episodes in their history.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 15:59
No, it had nothing to do with racism, but it goes to show that moist countries have nasty episodes in their history.

They certainly do! That is why many Russians get offended when someone from abroad tries to preach to them from the position of above-reproach-illuminati, as if we are a bunch of bare-a$$ natives with rings in our noses.

You see, to do that one would have to possess impeccable moral authority, otherwise any such sermon would sound arrogant and hypocritical.

What makes you so mad about Russian reactions to criticism is just a manifestation of peopleís resentment to the overall finger-pointing tone of some posts, thatís all.

Discussion is one thing; finger-pointing Ė is another.

MissAnnElk
30-03-2009, 16:03
When I lived in Taiwan, I remember seeing this toothpaste brand. As you can see, the company eventually changed the name.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 16:35
They certainly do! That is why many Russians get offended when someone from abroad tries to preach to them from the position of above-reproach-illuminati, as if we are a bunch of bare-a$$ natives with rings in our noses.

You see, to do that one would have to possess impeccable moral authority, otherwise any such sermon would sound arrogant and hypocritical.

What makes you so mad about Russian reactions to criticism is just a manifestation of people’s resentment to the overall finger-pointing tone of some posts, that’s all.

Discussion is one thing; finger-pointing – is another.
What finger pointing??????????????

Have you noticed the reaction when someone comes here and says:

"Hi, I'm visiting Moscow soon on a business trip, and I've read lots in the press recently about racial attacks. Should I be worried? Could you guys give me advice?"

Or when an expat publishes a news story about an African student, or a gasterbaiter getting killed. (Because, you know, the only reason an expat would possibly be interested in another expat being beaten to death would be to point fingers).

If you think that is finger pointing, you need to take a look at a dictionary.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 16:48
What finger pointing??????????????

Have you noticed the reaction when someone comes here and says:

"Hi, I'm visiting Moscow soon on a business trip, and I've read lots in the press recently about racial attacks. Should I be worried? Could you guys give me advice?"

Or when an expat publishes a news story about an African student, or a gasterbaiter getting killed. (Because, you know, the only reason an expat would possibly be interested in another expat being beaten to death would be to point fingers).

If you think that is finger pointing, you need to take a look at a dictionary.

For illustration purposes, let me borrow a phrase from your original post, that started this thread:

“I'm really not sure Russia has grasped what racism is.”

If that is not one cocky finger-pointing statement, I don’t know what is…

So, despite all your eloquence, maybe you are the one who should let a dictionary come to your rescue more often…

P.S. When we do happen to forget what racism is, we are always reminded of its meaning when we apply for a visa to visit your country, among others....

Carbo
30-03-2009, 17:01
For illustration purposes, let me borrow a phrase from your original post, that started this thread:

“I'm really not sure Russia has grasped what racism is.”

If that is not one cocky finger-pointing statement, I don’t know what is…

So, despite all your eloquence, maybe you are the one who should let a dictionary come to your rescue more often…

P.S. When we do happen to forget what racism is, we are always reminded of its meaning when we apply for a visa to visit your country, among others....
But I'm not. I'm not sure Russia has really grasped what racism is.

That's not me being cocky, it is me expressing a thought. And I would suggest that there are plenty of posts on this thread that suggest that some Russians (i.e. the ones who post here) have not grasped what racism is. Sorry to say that, but you're just going to have to deal with that opinion. I hope you doing get too upset about it, really I do, because I like living here, but I just know there's plenty of racism, too.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 17:18
But I'm not. I'm not sure Russia has really grasped what racism is.

That's not me being cocky, it is me expressing a thought. And I would suggest that there are plenty of posts on this thread that suggest that some Russians (i.e. the ones who post here) have not grasped what racism is. Sorry to say that, but you're just going to have to deal with that opinion. I hope you doing get too upset about it, really I do, because I like living here, but I just know there's plenty of racism, too.

I have no problem with your opinion - thank God we no longer live in a totalitarian state where one would serve time in Gulag just for saying things.

I am also happy that I live in a society where I don't have to look over my shoulder every time I feel like telling an ethnic joke.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 17:27
I have no problem with your opinion - thank God we no longer live in a totalitarian state where one would serve time in Gulag just for saying things.

I am also happy that I live in a society where I don't have to look over my shoulder every time I feel like telling an ethnic joke.
Yes, I agree.

I defend the rights of racists to free speech.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 17:52
Yes, I agree.

I defend the rights of racists to free speech.

This is what you don’t seem to understand about me. You think I am a racist just because I might like an ethnic joke now and then and because I said a few things about black people in earlier posts.

But what about you, Carbo? You defend the black people but how much do you really know about them? How many close black friends do you have? Have you ever dated a black woman? Have you ever been to a real ghetto party where you would be the only white person? Have you had sincere and open conversations about racism with blacks from all walks of life – from college professors to convicts and drug dealers?

You see, I did all of the above while living in the States. Whatever ideas I might hold about Americans of African descent, they are derived from my personal experiences that I acquired because of my curiosity and my desire to get to know them and to understand them.

Another thing that you might want to try to understand is that one can really like somebody even when that somebody is far from perfect. And I always liked black people in the US – they are way more fun than your average uptight white American!

What about you? How well do you know those whom you are defending? Or maybe you don’t really know them. Maybe be you are just a white guy who went to all-white boarding school and then to some elite predominantly white college where white politically correct professors taught you to say politically correct things no matter what? Am I wrong? ;)

Jack17
30-03-2009, 19:13
This is what you donít seem to understand about me. You think I am a racist just because I might like an ethnic joke now and then and because I said a few things about black people in earlier posts.

But what about you, Carbo? You defend the black people but how much do you really know about them? How many close black friends do you have? Have you ever dated a black woman? Have you ever been to a real ghetto party where you would be the only white person? Have you had sincere and open conversations about racism with blacks from all walks of life Ė from college professors to convicts and drug dealers?

You see, I did all of the above while living in the States. Whatever ideas I might hold about Americans of African descent, they are derived from my personal experiences that I acquired because of my curiosity and my desire to get to know them and to understand them.

Another thing that you might want to try to understand is that one can really like somebody even when that somebody is far from perfect. And I always liked black people in the US Ė they are way more fun than your average uptight white American!

What about you? How well do you know those whom you are defending? Or maybe you donít really know them. Maybe be you are just a white guy who went to all-white boarding school and then to some elite predominantly white college where white politically correct professors taught you to say politically correct things no matter what? Am I wrong? ;)
:10518: Racism exists everywhere. Russia is a package deal; much of what I love best about Russia reminds me of life in the US 50 years ago. Unfortunately, the pervasive, quaint, systemic racism is part of the package. Keep in mind, if Lincoln were alive today he would be considered a gross racist; in fact, you could say the same for Roosevelt or even Kennedy. By the time ethnic and racial jokes are frowned on by Russians, it will be no different here than in the US and who wants that.:eek: I remember asking my Russian mother-in-law once if there was prejudice against Jews in Russia. Her answer was, "Well, they (the Jews) think there is; even though they've always had the best jobs and apartments." You go figure. :rolleyes:

Carbo
30-03-2009, 19:49
This is what you donít seem to understand about me. You think I am a racist just because I might like an ethnic joke now and then and because I said a few things about black people in earlier posts.

But what about you, Carbo? You defend the black people but how much do you really know about them? How many close black friends do you have? Have you ever dated a black woman? Have you ever been to a real ghetto party where you would be the only white person? Have you had sincere and open conversations about racism with blacks from all walks of life Ė from college professors to convicts and drug dealers?

You see, I did all of the above while living in the States. Whatever ideas I might hold about Americans of African descent, they are derived from my personal experiences that I acquired because of my curiosity and my desire to get to know them and to understand them.

Another thing that you might want to try to understand is that one can really like somebody even when that somebody is far from perfect. And I always liked black people in the US Ė they are way more fun than your average uptight white American!

What about you? How well do you know those whom you are defending? Or maybe you donít really know them. Maybe be you are just a white guy who went to all-white boarding school and then to some elite predominantly white college where white politically correct professors taught you to say politically correct things no matter what? Am I wrong? ;)
You're very wrong. My step monther is black, and from Kenya, my father and his side of the family are white and from South Africa.

I also have no idea why you think I had some kind of 'elite' education.

And I have no idea what on earth any of this has to do with the point at hand.

You said that you don't see why your right to tell ethnic jokes should be curtailed, and I said that the right of freedom of speech should be defended if if that speech is racist or said by racists, and I stand by that.

Free speech should be defended in almost all occassions.

But Jack is right. The racism I hear here, is very much like the Alf Garnett stuff that was commonplace in the UK 30 years ago, and still is in some places.

So, just deal wtih it. You want it that way, so don't be ashamed.

Jack17
30-03-2009, 19:55
Carbo, you sure you're not a public school alumnus? I think Ghostly assumes an "elite education" from the quality of your prose - as we all do.

Willy
30-03-2009, 20:02
This is what you don’t seem to understand about me. You think I am a racist just because I might like an ethnic joke now and then and because I said a few things about black people in earlier posts.

But what about you, Carbo? You defend the black people but how much do you really know about them? How many close black friends do you have? Have you ever dated a black woman? Have you ever been to a real ghetto party where you would be the only white person? Have you had sincere and open conversations about racism with blacks from all walks of life – from college professors to convicts and drug dealers?

You see, I did all of the above while living in the States. Whatever ideas I might hold about Americans of African descent, they are derived from my personal experiences that I acquired because of my curiosity and my desire to get to know them and to understand them.

Another thing that you might want to try to understand is that one can really like somebody even when that somebody is far from perfect. And I always liked black people in the US – they are way more fun than your average uptight white American!

What about you? How well do you know those whom you are defending? Or maybe you don’t really know them. Maybe be you are just a white guy who went to all-white boarding school and then to some elite predominantly white college where white politically correct professors taught you to say politically correct things no matter what? Am I wrong? ;)


I've heard other Russians that have been to the U.S. say the samethings.

The blacks like them more than white Americans too.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 20:04
Carbo, you sure you're not a public school alumnus? I think Ghostly assumes an "elite education" from the quality of your prose - as we all do.
Well, that's jolly kind of you, old boy, but I'm afraid I can't oblige.

Here's my high school:

Welcome to Whitley Bay High School (http://www.whitleybayhighschool.org/)

Jack17
30-03-2009, 20:20
I like how the "Where To Find Us" map uses the Monkseaton Arms and Hunters' Pubs as prominent landmarks to find the shcool. Clearly the sign of a superior culture.

Carbo
30-03-2009, 20:38
I like how the "Where To Find Us" map uses the Monkseaton Arms and Hunters' Pubs as prominent landmarks to find the shcool. Clearly the sign of a superior culture.
The Monkseaton Arms is a landmark...

Wodin
30-03-2009, 20:38
Well, that's jolly kind of you, old boy, but I'm afraid I can't oblige.

Here's my high school:

Welcome to Whitley Bay High School (http://www.whitleybayhighschool.org/)

OMG..he's a Geordie!!!!

:p

Carbo
30-03-2009, 20:43
OMG..he's a Geordie!!!!

:p

Life is full of surprises.

OK, found this. This is something I haven't watched since childhood. I was too young for Till Death to us Part, but I did grow up with In Sickness and in Health. Anyway, here's Alf vs the Trade Unions

YouTube- Alf goes off on one again about communists and prisons

Carbo
30-03-2009, 20:49
More Alf

YouTube- alf garnett meets marigold

Jack17
30-03-2009, 21:19
Why not Amos and Andy while we're at it? I think it would be a big hit in Russia if they could just get the black vernacular right in translation.
YouTube- Amos & Andy Show-Kingfish Sells A Lot Part 2

MickeyTong
30-03-2009, 21:35
Carbo, you sure you're not a public school alumnus? I think Ghostly assumes an "elite education" from the quality of your prose - as we all do.

Classism, eh? Working class Geordies can't write good English, or speak intelligibly? Hah!





I'm originally from Blyth, a couple of miles up the road from Whitley Bay.

Jack17
30-03-2009, 21:40
Busted!!

Carbo
30-03-2009, 21:50
Classism, eh? Working class Geordies can't write good English, or speak intelligibly? Hah!





I'm originally from Blyth, a couple of miles up the road from Whitley Bay.
Wow, unbelievable.

I don't know quite why I find that unbelievable, but it seems strang eto find someone from near where you lived livng in Moscow.

Are you here now?

Yeah, everyone in Newcastle always assumed I was posh or something, too. Like ALL my work colleagues. I don't know why. Just because I write nice an'all. I know Whitley Bay's a nice area, and the school is good, but I was born and brought up just outside Wallsend, which isn't. You know, my mam's a house cleaner and my dad workes on the checkouts of his local supermarket, ASDA.

So hardly elite or anything.

MickeyTong
30-03-2009, 21:56
Small world, eh?
But I live on the Isle of Lewis......

Carbo
30-03-2009, 22:01
Small world, eh?
But I live on the Isle of Lewis......
How come you post on here? Did you live in Russia for a time?

MickeyTong
30-03-2009, 22:05
I was in Moscow for 4 weeks in August 2007, learning some Russian and staying with friends in Novogireevo. Since then I've toyed with the idea of relocating...but I don't really fancy the idea of being a lowly paid novice English teacher for a MacEnglish school.

MickeyTong
30-03-2009, 22:07
I like this forum: loads of info and some entertaining posts.

Ghostly Presence
30-03-2009, 23:43
Wow, unbelievable.

I don't know quite why I find that unbelievable, but it seems strang eto find someone from near where you lived livng in Moscow.

Are you here now?

Yeah, everyone in Newcastle always assumed I was posh or something, too. Like ALL my work colleagues. I don't know why. Just because I write nice an'all. I know Whitley Bay's a nice area, and the school is good, but I was born and brought up just outside Wallsend, which isn't. You know, my mam's a house cleaner and my dad workes on the checkouts of his local supermarket, ASDA.

So hardly elite or anything.

Well, the way you speak or write matters a great deal. Don't you remember "My favorite lady?" :)

Jack17
31-03-2009, 00:13
Maybe "My Fair Lady?" as in "The rain in Spain falls mainly on the Plains?"

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 08:04
Answer is simple. According to the Russian mentality it's not a shame to be a Negro.
According to the Western one, it's a shame.
Because of that when a Russian calls a Negro as Negro, he does not mean to offend him.
In Russian, equivalent to word nigger is word black, and the most important, it does not relate to Negroes at all. It relates to nations which would be considered in the US as white.
When a Western hypocrite tries to convince Russians they are racists because Negro is a dirty word, he just shows very deep inside HE is a racist, because for HIM being a Negro is derogatory.

DDT
31-03-2009, 09:21
Answer is simple. According to the Russian mentality it's not a shame to be a Negro.
According to the Western one, it's a shame.
Because of that when a Russian calls a Negro as Negro, he does not mean to offend him.
In Russian, equivalent to word nigger is word black, and the most important, it does not relate to Negroes at all. It relates to nations which would be considered in the US as white.
When a Western hypocrite tries to convince Russians they are racists because Negro is a dirty word, he just shows very deep inside HE is a racist, because for HIM being a Negro is derogatory.
You are right of course! Even only a few years ago, in the USA, no one would have ever thought that you were insensitive if you used the word Negro. It was actually the proper and accepted word anywhere in the English speaking world. Not only this...but not that long ago, the proper word to use was "N!gger". This word, like Negro, had no negative connotations whatsoever! They were both used freely in the educational system, in literature and used in front of Blacks with none taking offense.

It is simply political correctness gone mad and driven by social activists who were by and large Black racist themselves, such as the Black Panthers and Black Power groups, aided of course by Liberal White apologists ashamed of their own position in society, heritage and probably their own skin color altogether. The word Negro is the next word on the hit list for the racist black activists who have realized that they can manipulate society in general and Whites in particular and these racist Blacks are going to play this little game with these scared self hating Whites for all it's worth. The word Negro has not and never has had, one negative connotation to it, not one, none, nada, zilch!

Rather than change themselves and their image into one that is positive and represents nobility. An image that no one could dispute or say anything but good things about, Blacks have, rather sought to simply change their name instead, and manipulate the weak into using it!!

Carbo
31-03-2009, 11:35
You are right of course! Even only a few years ago, in the USA, no one would have ever thought that you were insensitive if you used the word Negro. It was actually the proper and accepted word anywhere in the English speaking world. Not only this...but not that long ago, the proper word to use was "N!gger". This word, like Negro, had no negative connotations whatsoever! They were both used freely in the educational system, in literature and used in front of Blacks with none taking offense.

It is simply political correctness gone mad and driven by social activists who were by and large Black racist themselves, such as the Black Panthers and Black Power groups, aided of course by Liberal White apologists ashamed of their own position in society, heritage and probably their own skin color altogether. The word Negro is the next word on the hit list for the racist black activists who have realized that they can manipulate society in general and Whites in particular and these racist Blacks are going to play this little game with these scared self hating Whites for all it's worth. The word Negro has not and never has had, one negative connotation to it, not one, none, nada, zilch!

Rather than change themselves and their image into one that is positive and represents nobility. An image that no one could dispute or say anything but good things about, Blacks have, rather sought to simply change their name instead, and manipulate the weak into using it!!

NEWS FLASH: Grand Wizard DDT Advocates a Return to Calling African-Americans Niggers.

MOSCOW (AP) -- Forum poster DDT, the Grand Wizard of the Buttfak, Wyoming chapter of the Ku Klux Klan, advocated this morning a return to calling African-Americans and other people of colour “niggers”. The surprise declaration came amid a frank discussion on racism in Russia, and follows a series of overtly racist posts from the Grand Wizard.

“It was actually the proper and accepted word anywhere in the English speaking world,” claimed DDT, by profession a potato farmer. “[It was] used freely in the educational system [such as Ol’ Miss University], in literature and used in front of Blacks [on the tobacco plantation] with none [except the uppity ones who didn’t know their place] taking offense,” he said.

The Grand Wizard, who has long railed against the liberal-communist-muslim conspiracy to defile America and make Aryans the world over ashamed of their history, said that the removal of the word nigger from the lexicon of language acceptable for everyday usage was racist itself. “It is simply political correctness gone mad and driven by social activists who were by and large Black racist themselves, such as the Black Panthers and Black Power groups, aided of course by Liberal White apologists ashamed of their own position in society, heritage and probably their own skin color altogether.”

In addition to his “crusade” to re-elevate the word nigger to social acceptability, the Grand Wizard is campaigning for an end to “New World Order” federal taxes; niggers in the White House who “aren’t really American”; the forced conversion of all Muslims to Christianity; an amendment to the US Constitution which would mandate that the president to give unlimited monetary, intelligence and military support to Israel; the forced appropriation of sovereign land in Jordan, Syria and Egypt to it’s “rightful owners”, Israel; the end of feminism, which is simply an effort to “force state education on children”; the regognition by society at large that all Negros "look alike"; an end to the “lie of evolution” in schools; and the expulsion of “carpetbagging Republicans and Democrats” and “other scallywags” from the Confederate States.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 12:07
It is simply political correctness gone mad and driven by social activists

US repeats deeds of USSR.
There was an ancient Russian word zhyd, the same word as in any Slavic language around. After 1918, komissars replaced it with evrei (hebrew) and shot without any trial those who used to say zhyd.
As a result, the word anyway remained in Russain but now it changed its original neutral meaning and used only as a derogatory name of Jewish.

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"

(W. Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet, 1594)

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 12:18
Calling African-Americans Niggers.[/SIZE][/FONT]


Massa, would you be so kind to give me a reference to your article dated at 1991-1993 when Russians were genocided in Chechnya? Or may by 1985 when they were mass murdered in Tajikistan?
May be any articles about discrimination of Russians in Baltic states?
If not, why should I trust you are really suffering mentally for calling Negroes as Negroes in Russia?
Or may be calling them like this is more mortal than cutting throats of women after raping by a gang of "freedom fighters" honored for that in mass media of US and Western Europe?
Russians do not deserve life and respect in your opinion?

You do not care about any racism in Russia.
The only your goal is to spit a chunk of grease on my country.
Retain it for yourself, massa.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 12:43
Massa, would you be so kind to give me a reference to your article dated at 1991-1993 when Russians were genocided in Chechnya? Or may by 1985 when they were mass murdered in Tajikistan?
May be any articles about discrimination of Russians in Baltic states?
If not, why should I trust you are really suffering mentally for calling Negroes as Negroes in Russia?
Or may be calling them like this is more mortal than cutting throats of women after raping by a gang of "freedom fighters" honored for that in mass media of US and Western Europe?
Russians do not deserve life and respect in your opinion?

You do not care about any racism in Russia.
The only your goal is to spit a chunk of grease on my country.
Retain it for yourself, massa.
Is this absurd post aimed at me?

Ghostly Presence
31-03-2009, 13:07
Massa, would you be so kind to give me a reference to your article dated at 1991-1993 when Russians were genocided in Chechnya? Or may by 1985 when they were mass murdered in Tajikistan?
May be any articles about discrimination of Russians in Baltic states?
If not, why should I trust you are really suffering mentally for calling Negroes as Negroes in Russia?
Or may be calling them like this is more mortal than cutting throats of women after raping by a gang of "freedom fighters" honored for that in mass media of US and Western Europe?
Russians do not deserve life and respect in your opinion?

You do not care about any racism in Russia.
The only your goal is to spit a chunk of grease on my country.
Retain it for yourself, massa.

Ivan,

I like telling stories and this post reminded me of one. A long time ago I was helping a Russian Olympic team that came to the US to prepare for the 1996 Olympic games. The training took place in a small town near Atlanta. I remember a red-haired reporter from the local paper that kept hanging around the Russian sportsmen. The thing that struck me unpleasantly about that guy was the nature of the questions he kept asking the kids. He wasn’t particularly interested in their personalities and backgrounds but he was very curious to find out how they felt about being in the US, if it was better than Russia and whether they wanted to stay in America. He was ferreting out a scandal of some kind. Finally, he found one when a couple of young sportsmen made a bad mistake that, if discovered, would have led to their discharge from the team. Organizers of the training managed to keep a lid on that story until the team left for Russia, but it did leak into the papers on the next day after the team’s departure. You must have already guessed who the author of the article was. That’s right – that red-haired reporter that was so eager to dig up some dirt on Russian sportsmen, who incidentally were just kids (13-15 year olds).

To me this story is an excellent illustration of the entire ideology of reporting news about Russia – report something bad or don’t report anything at all.

No point in arguing about that with a western reporter – they, who loudly defend freedom of press, are anything but free when it comes to reporting about Russia. I don’t know if that is due to direct orders that they receive or due to some perverted self-censorship, but the fact remains.

P.S. I disagree with you about the word “negros” though – if people don’t want to be called that, there is no reason not to oblige and use a different word instead.

RRM
31-03-2009, 13:08
Massa, would you be so kind to give me a reference to your article dated at 1991-1993 when Russians were genocided in Chechnya? Or may by 1985 when they were mass murdered in Tajikistan?
May be any articles about discrimination of Russians in Baltic states?
If not, why should I trust you are really suffering mentally for calling Negroes as Negroes in Russia?
Or may be calling them like this is more mortal than cutting throats of women after raping by a gang of "freedom fighters" honored for that in mass media of US and Western Europe?
Russians do not deserve life and respect in your opinion?

You do not care about any racism in Russia.
The only your goal is to spit a chunk of grease on my country.
Retain it for yourself, massa.

As a result, what you might provide the suggestion here is that any white person from places where blacks have been killed and tortured should not step into Africa anymore because the blacks have a justification now (according to you) to commit crime on whites.

MissAnnElk
31-03-2009, 13:32
Saturday Night Live : Word Association (Richard Pryor) @ theTravisty (http://thetravisty.com/Saturday_Night_Live/mov/Word_Association_(Richard_Pryor).htm)

Here's the transcript:

Racist Word Association Interview

Written by: Paul Mooney

Interviewer.....Chevy Chase
Mr. Wilson.....Richard Pryor

Interviewer: Alright, Mr. Wilson, you've done just fine on the Rorshact.. your papers are in good order.. your file's fine.. no difficulties with your motor skills.. And I think you're probably ready for this job. We've got one more psychological test we always do here. It's just a Word Association. I'll throw you out a few words - anything that comes to your mind, just throw back at me, okay? It's kind of an arbitrary thing. Like, if I say "dog", you'd say..?

Mr. Wilson: "Tree".

Interviewer: "Tree". [ nods head, prepares the test papers ] "Dog".

Mr. Wilson: "Tree".

Interviewer: "Fast".

Mr. Wilson: "Slow".

Interviewer: "Rain".

Mr. Wilson: "Snow".

Interviewer: "White".

Mr. Wilson: "Black".

Interviewer: "Bean".

Mr. Wilson: "Pod".

Interviewer: [ casually ] "Negro".

Mr. Wilson: "Whitey".

Interviewer: "Tarbaby".

Mr. Wilson: [ silent, sure he didn't hear what he thinks he heard ] What'd you say?

Interviewer: [ repeating ] "Tarbaby".

Mr. Wilson: "Ofay".

Interviewer: "Colored".

Mr. Wilson: "Redneck".

Interviewer: "Junglebunny".

Mr. Wilson: [ starting to get angry ] "Peckerwood!"

Interviewer: "Burrhead".

Mr. Wilson: [ defensive ] "Cracker!"

Interviewer: [ aggressive ] "Spearchucker".

Mr. Wilson: "White trash!"

Interviewer: "Jungle Bunny!"

Mr. Wilson: [ upset ] "Honky!"

Interviewer: "Spade!

Mr. Wilson: [ really upset ] "Honky Honky!"

Interviewer: [ relentless ] "Nigger!"

Mr. Wilson: [ immediate ] "Dead honky!" [ face starts to flinch ]

Interviewer: [ quickly wraps the interview up ] Okay, Mr. Wilson, I think you're qualified for this job. How about a starting salary of $5,000?

Mr. Wilson: Your momma!

Interviewer: [ fumbling ] Uh.. $7,500 a year?

Mr. Wilson: Your grandmomma!

Interviewer: [ desperate ] $15,000, Mr. Wilson. You'll be the highest paid janitor in America. Just, don't.. don't hurt me, please..

Mr. Wilson: Okay.

Interviewer: [ relieved ] Okay.

Mr. Wilson: You want me to start now?

Interviewer: Oh, no, no.. that's alright. I'll clean all this up. Take a couple of weeks off, you look tired.

[ fade ]

kirk10071
31-03-2009, 14:38
Ivan,

I like telling stories and this post reminded me of one. A long time ago I was helping a Russian Olympic team that came to the US to prepare for the 1996 Olympic games. The training took place in a small town near Atlanta. I remember a red-haired reporter from the local paper that kept hanging around the Russian sportsmen. The thing that struck me unpleasantly about that guy was the nature of the questions he kept asking the kids. He wasnít particularly interested in their personalities and backgrounds but he was very curious to find out how they felt about being in the US, if it was better than Russia and whether they wanted to stay in America. He was ferreting out a scandal of some kind. Finally, he found one when a couple of young sportsmen made a bad mistake that, if discovered, would have led to their discharge from the team. Organizers of the training managed to keep a lid on that story until the team left for Russia, but it did leak into the papers on the next day after the teamís departure. You must have already guessed who the author of the article was. Thatís right Ė that red-haired reporter that was so eager to dig up some dirt on Russian sportsmen, who incidentally were just kids (13-15 year olds).

To me this story is an excellent illustration of the entire ideology of reporting news about Russia Ė report something bad or donít report anything at all.

No point in arguing about that with a western reporter Ė they, who loudly defend freedom of press, are anything but free when it comes to reporting about Russia. I donít know if that is due to direct orders that they receive or due to some perverted self-censorship, but the fact remains.

P.S. I disagree with you about the word ďnegrosĒ though Ė if people donít want to be called that, there is no reason not to oblige and use a different word instead.

I don't believe your story. I think it is made up. Maybe not by you, but it sounds made up.

Ghostly Presence
31-03-2009, 14:58
I don't believe your story. I think it is made up. Maybe not by you, but it sounds made up.

No, the story is true and I was a participant of those events. I was helping as an interpreter and that is how I got to witness the whole story. What part of it seems so hard to believe?

Carbo
31-03-2009, 15:23
Ivan,

I like telling stories and this post reminded me of one. A long time ago I was helping a Russian Olympic team that came to the US to prepare for the 1996 Olympic games. The training took place in a small town near Atlanta. I remember a red-haired reporter from the local paper that kept hanging around the Russian sportsmen. The thing that struck me unpleasantly about that guy was the nature of the questions he kept asking the kids. He wasn’t particularly interested in their personalities and backgrounds but he was very curious to find out how they felt about being in the US, if it was better than Russia and whether they wanted to stay in America. He was ferreting out a scandal of some kind. Finally, he found one when a couple of young sportsmen made a bad mistake that, if discovered, would have led to their discharge from the team. Organizers of the training managed to keep a lid on that story until the team left for Russia, but it did leak into the papers on the next day after the team’s departure. You must have already guessed who the author of the article was. That’s right – that red-haired reporter that was so eager to dig up some dirt on Russian sportsmen, who incidentally were just kids (13-15 year olds).

To me this story is an excellent illustration of the entire ideology of reporting news about Russia – report something bad or don’t report anything at all.

No point in arguing about that with a western reporter – they, who loudly defend freedom of press, are anything but free when it comes to reporting about Russia. I don’t know if that is due to direct orders that they receive or due to some perverted self-censorship, but the fact remains.

P.S. I disagree with you about the word “negros” though – if people don’t want to be called that, there is no reason not to oblige and use a different word instead.
And what was the scandal?

Anyway, the reporting of the press has nothing to do with this. I have defended Russia on numerous occassions from what I see as hysterical treatment from the Western press, as you can see by following the following links, which are blog posts I have authored.

Putin and the Cult of Slothful Journalism ę The Parallax Brief (http://parallaxbrief.wordpress.com/2009/01/16/putin-and-the-cult-of-slothful-journalism/)
Time for a Better Understanding of Russia and Russians ę The Parallax Brief (http://parallaxbrief.wordpress.com/2009/02/04/time-for-a-better-understanding-of-russia-russian/)
Boris Nemtsov: The Gift to Putin that Keeps on Giving ę The Parallax Brief (http://parallaxbrief.wordpress.com/2009/02/19/boris-nemtsov-the-gift-to-putin-that-keeps-on-giving/)
Levine’s Lackluster Labyrinth ę The Parallax Brief (http://parallaxbrief.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/levine-putin-labyrinth-russia/)

But then I really wonder whether Russia is not it's own worst enemy when I find someone like you who seems to think, soviet-style, that any criticism is part of some kind of western plot to destroy Russia.

I think if you read the articles, you'll find that I'm more than fair about Russia. But can you not see why I might be concerned or interested in Russian racism/nationalism??

Don't you know that I'm an EXPAT???? Don't you think that I would find it interesting that black students (other expats) face abuse? Or that gasterbeiters (expats) are being beaten and killed by Russian neo-nazis who want to rid Russia of foreigners (like me)? Don't you think that might be an area that I'm interested in???

No! You would rather consider me part of a hateful group of nefarious westerners who wants to destroy Russia by debauching its culture.

And then, to cap things off, I wonder if I'm right to defend Russia in my blog, and call for more reasonable press coverage in my blog and forum posts and correspondence when i have hypocrites like you who think that a little bit of racist humour is ok, and that people who complain should lighten up, when you can't take even a whisp of criticism that comes the other way.

I suggest you start practicing what you preach.

Finally, what was the scandal in the Russian olympic team?

Ghostly Presence
31-03-2009, 15:32
Finally, what was the scandal in the Russian olympic team?

It was about shoplifting. But I will say no more about that.

Whatever you say though, Russia's coverage in the western media is lopsided at best. I have watched American TV and read American and European newspapers many enough years to come to this conclusion beyond any doubt.

Of course, Russia provides plenty of reasons for negative coverage - I don't dispute that, but even here life is not all about gloom and doom.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 15:54
It was about shoplifting. But I will say no more about that.

Whatever you say though, Russia's coverage in the western media is lopsided at best. I have watched American TV and read American and European newspapers many enough years to come to this conclusion beyond any doubt.

Of course, Russia provides plenty of reasons for negative coverage - I don't dispute that, but even here life is not all about gloom and doom.
I agree with you, as the links show. Coverage of Russia is lopsided.

But you don't help your case if, when somebody shows you a video of Russian neo-nazis in Russia talking about Russia and Russians and how Russia should be rid of foreigners and blacks specifically, you claim there is no racism in Russia.

If I say there is petty racism here, and then you defend petty racism, while in the same breath arguing that claims of racism are part of some kind of western plot to discredit Russia.

What you are doing, often, is confusing criticism of the Putin-Medvedev administrations with critisism of Russia. Despite what United Russia would like you to believe they are two seperate things.

Second point, if a member of the Russian team has been caught shoplifting, that's in the public interest.

If Putin owns Surgutneftegaz, that's in the public interest.

Don't you realize that a free press is one of the great institutions, on par with an independent judiciary, that guarantees freedom and democracy and protects you from government??

Ghostly Presence
31-03-2009, 16:14
I agree with you, as the links show. Coverage of Russia is lopsided.

But you don't help your case if, when somebody shows you a video of Russian neo-nazis in Russia talking about Russia and Russians and how Russia should be rid of foreigners and blacks specifically, you claim there is no racism in Russia.

If I say there is petty racism here, and then you defend petty racism, while in the same breath arguing that claims of racism are part of some kind of western plot to discredit Russia.

What you are doing, often, is confusing criticism of the Putin-Medvedev administrations with critisism of Russia. Despite what United Russia would like you to believe they are two seperate things.

Second point, if a member of the Russian team has been caught shoplifting, that's in the public interest.

If Putin owns Surgutneftegaz, that's in the public interest.

Don't you realize that a free press is one of the great institutions, on par with an independent judiciary, that guarantees freedom and democracy and protects you from government??

A reporter can tell a story about shoplifting committed by a visiting foreign sports team since it is quite an event for a sleepy little town. The problems begin when that is the only story that the local residents get to hear about these guys. Suddenly, the whole team appears to be no more than a visiting gang of thieves instead of a group of incredibly talented youths who have the will power and courage to achieve so much in their sport.

I think you understand the parallels that I draw here with overall Western coverage of Russia.

I am also questioning the true extent of press freedom in the West. It seems that it has too many topics that are either taboo or are expected to be reported on only at a certain angle.

Whoever pays, orders the music.

Ghostly Presence
31-03-2009, 16:34
IBut you don't help your case if, when somebody shows you a video of Russian neo-nazis in Russia talking about Russia and Russians and how Russia should be rid of foreigners and blacks specifically, you claim there is no racism in Russia.



I personally never claimed that there is no racism in Russia - I know better. My point was completely different but you either pretend that you don't understand me or you honestly don't get it. I am not going to start it all over again, Carbo.

Ultimately we all choose to believe what we choose to believe and there is nothing that can be done about that as our life experiences are very different and we all reach different conclusions based on them.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 16:55
A reporter can tell a story about shoplifting committed by a visiting foreign sports team since it is quite an event for a sleepy little town. The problems begin when that is the only story that the local residents get to hear about these guys. Suddenly, the whole team appears to be no more than a visiting gang of thieves instead of a group of incredibly talented youths who have the will power and courage to achieve so much in their sport.

I think you understand the parallels that I draw here with overall Western coverage of Russia.

I am also questioning the true extent of press freedom in the West. It seems that it has too many topics that are either taboo or are expected to be reported on only at a certain angle.

Whoever pays, orders the music.
That's interesting. Certainly I'm of the camp that thinks that the media has turly debauched itself in recent years.

It's supine attitude to reporting on the Iraq war and WMDs, and more recently, outrageously egregious reporting on the Russia-Georgia cat-fight, was a disgrace.

Certainly, questions need to be asked.

But in plenty of quarters, they are being asked. There is a discussion on whether the press was too easily made to respect the administration on the grounds of national interest. And I think the press is pretty ashamed. I wonder if similar questions are being asked in Russia. I wonder if there is an outry about the killing of journalists who investigate.

Further, there have been triumphs:

The ultimate lack of WMDs, and the guilt of Britain and America of going to war on that basis was reported by the British and American press widely. Abu Ghraib was discovered and reported by the American press. There are still crusaders out there like Seymour Hersh. Books like the Dark Side and the Torture Team are published, and their authors are still alive today.

Are there any similar scandals unearthed in Russia? If they are, what is the life expectancy of the authors?

Perhaps the western media is helping the Russian people, because the Russian press has become unwilling (because it has been cowed by the administration into supine servility) or unable (because anyone who investigates authority or business interests ends up getting whacked) to perform its extraconstitutional role in protecting democracy and the rule of law?

Of course, that’s a rather glib line of argument, and I openly admit that I'm really playing devils advocate here. But I wonder why you spend more time defending Russia in the rather strange way of questioning whether the western press is free than questioning the state of the Russian press. Afterall, it’s your country.

I also wonder why you are more willing to believe that my interest in racism and racist violence in Russia is somehow connected with the pernicious western press conspiracy, under the pay of Russiaphobes, to undermine the country, rather than believing the outrageous idea that it could be just a case of me being interested because I'm an expat and therefore directly affected, and because I'm genuinely morally repulsed by the apologism that goes on for what is ultimately reprehensible racism.

For instance, you still didn't answer the questions in my previous post. You simply moved on and continued wailing about the Western media.

And, by the way, the paper was every bit justified in printing the story about shoplifting, but if the Russian team had had an anywhere half-decent PR team, they would have been able to get some positive stories in the paper to balance the negative one out. You know what press handling is about? It's about reading something negative, and calling up the paper to talk to them about it. And getting nowhere, but then trying again, and again, and building a relationship, until you do get them to change their attitude.

It's also about generating stories for the press; making their job easier: "Come look at this Russian athlete giving out free equipment to underprivileged kids;" "Come look at this Russian athlete meeting up with his long lost relatives who emigrated to Brighton Beach in the 30s;" "Come look at this Russian athlete spending time at the local athletic club, giving the kids the benefit of his expertise;" "Come look at the Russian Olympic boxer in a US army base teaching them boxing technique. Who'd have thought that only 7 years ago??"

That’s what PR is about, but Russia doesn't get it. There's too much crying and moaning about how the western press hate us and not enough (1) understanding that sometimes they're reporting legitimate stories (2) understanding of how the western press works and (3) proactivity and savvy PR.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 17:08
Is this absurd post aimed at me?

No, massa. Offensive absurd under mask of a Negro-savior in brutal Russia was posted by you. My post was just an explanation of the fact against which you did not find any arguments to argue with and decided to save your face under a mask of offended virgin. :)

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 17:27
Ivan,
P.S. I disagree with you about the word ďnegrosĒ though Ė if people donít want to be called that, there is no reason not to oblige and use a different word instead.

Thank you very much for the story. Itís quite standard behavior of the free Western mass media.
But I disagree with you about your disagreement.
The matter is if you were called let say "human" while such repoters would write articles stipulating being Human is disgraceful, you would hate the word too.
Today in the US they change the third generation of terms for Negro. What happens when they exhaust entire English dictionary in the future? Will they borrow words for Negro from others? And what? In 200 years it will be a crime to speak at all because each word in all languages means Negro?
BTW, in Russian language the phrase Как же я, блядь, тебя люблю means very strong and real love not an offence.
May be itís because Russians pay attention to inner meanings of words not to their superficial strait meaning.
Offensive is not a word, offensive is what the image restored in brains hearing the word. Until society stops meaning something disgraceful when imagine a Negro covered under any nickname, any next word you select for Negro will be derogatory in 2- 5 years again.
Mr. Shakespeare wrote down his revelation about this almost 500 years again.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 17:29
No, massa. Offensive absurd under mask of a Negro-savior in brutal Russia was posted by you. My post was just an explanation of the fact against which you did not find any arguments to argue with and decided to save your face under a mask of offended virgin. :)
I THINK what you're saying is that I have no defense for your argument, but, infact, I called it an absurd post because it is based on extreme paranoia that would be better suited to a Stalin appartchik and completely ignores almost all my arguments prior to your post. Which I find strange.

I said "THINK", though, because I might be wrong.-

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 17:38
As a result, what you might provide the suggestion here is that any white person from places where blacks have been killed and tortured should not step into Africa anymore because the blacks have a justification now (according to you) to commit crime on whites.

You're wrong.
I just suggest the person to avoid teaching Russians how to use their own language where Negro has 100% neutral meaning because of the Russian history in which they were not slaves ever.
I would ask not to poke his nose in the Russian ads and translate them incorrectly because he does not get MEANING of the Russian word getting confused with its sounding close to another word with different meaning in his own language.
Let say pathetic. In English it means very weak and desperate person. In Russian it means glorifying something.
Ignorant translators are evil or provocateurs.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 17:54
I THINK what you're saying is that I have no defense for your argument, but, infact, I called it an absurd post because it is based on extreme paranoia that would be better suited to a Stalin appartchik and completely ignores almost all my arguments prior to your post. Which I find strange.

I said "THINK", though, because I might be wrong.-

Paranoia is when you invent something bad. When you point your finger to existing things, itís just fixation of somebody attention to the existing facts.
All Western mass media full of lie, double standards and hatred toward Russia. And this is a fact, not paranoia. And the fact you cannot deny even knowing the word, apparatchik.
Itís not an argument. You did not have any arguments except you poor understanding of the Russian word, Negro, meaning. Ignorance is not an argument.
BTW. Learning a single word in Russian does not make you an expert on Russia. So keep your apparatchik to impress ignorant morons.
You know. Russians invented a new fun. Here, inoforum.ru they post translated from Western mass media Rusophobic articles. Itís done by volunteers.
And in the forum, inoforum.ru/forum/ they happily discuss them as you do that with comic.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 17:59
Paranoia is when you invent something bad. When you point your finger to existing things, it’s just fixation of somebody attention to the existing facts.
All Western mass media full of lie, double standards and hatred toward Russia. And this is a fact, not paranoia. And the fact you cannot deny even knowing the word, apparatchik.
It’s not an argument. You did not have any arguments except you poor understanding of the Russian word, Negro, meaning. Ignorance is not an argument.
BTW. Learning a single word in Russian does not make you an expert on Russia. So keep your apparatchik to impress ignorant morons.
You know. Russians invented a new fun. Here, inoforum.ru they post translated from Western mass media Rusophobic articles. It’s done by volunteers.
And in the forum, inoforum.ru/forum/ they happily discuss them as you do that with comic.
So, it's not paranoia, they just really are out to get you?

And nobody said there was any problem with Russians calling blacks негр. Nobody tried to tell Russians how to use their language. To suggest this is a barefaced lie.

Go back through my posts and see if you can prove me wrong.

And on the Russian press, did you read my post of 16.55??

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 18:03
And what was the scandal?
Or that gasterbeiters (expats) are being beaten and killed by Russian neo-nazis who want to rid Russia of foreigners (like me)? Don't you think that might be an area that I'm interested in???

I told you what is the reason of that. They or their fathers mass murdered Russians in their republics recently. And the reaction to their deeds is quite logical. It's a human defencive reaction.
Why did not you open this kind of discussions when Russians were killed there?
Moreover, according to the police report, 70% of rapes in Moscow commited by those poor gastarbeitars. It's the second reason.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 18:04
I don't believe your story. I think it is made up. Maybe not by you, but it sounds made up.

I live in a port city and heard a lot of such stories from our sailors.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 18:13
So, it's not paranoia, they just really are out to get you?

I know this technique. When you do not have any arguments you try to distort my words.
I wrote about the Western mass media. May be my English is not good enough for you to understand?


And nobody said there was any problem with Russians calling blacks негр. Nobody tried to tell Russians how to use their language. To suggest this is a barefaced lie.

You first post on the topic was blaming Russians for that. But you hid in a cover of nonchalance. If you did not blame, why did you stressed attention on the naming Negros in Russia. Who cares? It’s Russian language and Russians decide how to use it without paying attention the word in YOUR language is derogatory.


Go back through my posts and see if you can prove me wrong.

Please, massa, do not hang noodles on my ears. I registered here only because of your hypocritical BS.


And on the Russian press, did you read my post of 16.55??

So far, I discuss your hypocracy HERE. When I find it, I will answer you.
Do not try to distract me from the matter of discussion. It's not that easy :)

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 18:21
Does Russia now have Nazis and skins?
Yes
Did the USSR have?
No
Why?
Because, in those times nobody mass murdered anybody.
When others started doing this to Russians, Russians recalled their nationality and some of them recalled it too much.
If you want to struggle against a problem, cut out roots of it, not leaves.
Those Nazis are RESULT of the evil, not the primary evil itself.

Ghostly Presence
31-03-2009, 18:31
Carbo,

You say a lot of reasonable things yet your words are not likely to fall on fertile soil here because people in Russia have grown suspicious of the West. Say what you want about paranoia, but we do have our reasons. The West actively supported the demise of the Soviet Union and we happily played along only to ultimately find ourselves in complete isolation with our former neighbors turning against us with active assistance from the West, with NATOís military circle tightening along our borders, with all kinds of barriers being erected that prevent Russian citizens from freely travelling and Russian companies from freely doing business in the West.

People feel cheated and they react with indignation when someone from the West tries to tell them what to do and what not to do, even when advice is sensible.

As I said earlier, the West has exhausted its moral authority with Russians and is unlikely to restore it any time soon.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 18:39
According to the Western point of view, the USSR was a jail for nations oppressing national republics.
And after the brave nations of the republics freed themselves murdering and squeezing out Russians they came back to Russians?
Why?
And why I am obliged to love those recent murders of my relatives?
My own sister is a refugee from Azerbaijan. She escaped from Baku when they made those famous pogroms of Armenians and Russians there calling it liberation from Russians.
Why should I respect the murders who came now to their ex-oppressors trying to save their families from starvation?
To be free means full responsibility for your deeds, even to be free to starve under a fence.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 18:45
Carbo,

You say a lot of reasonable things yet your words .

Nobody in Russia cares about searching reasons in the lectures of a representative and defender of the Western system which was silent when my relatives were killed in the republics by the poor migrants, who now became saint for them because Russians do not admire them for that.
Everyone must get according to his deeds.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 18:53
You first post on the topic was blaming Russians for that. But you hid in a cover of nonchalance. If you did not blame, why did you stressed attention on the naming Negros in Russia. Who cares? It’s Russian language and Russians decide how to use it without paying attention the word in YOUR language is derogatory.
For the SECOND TIME, nobody said anything about the Russian language. You are lying about this. I said it already once, and you just repeated it.

But since we're talking in ENGLISH now, can you stop using 'negro'. It's offensive. Use "black person" or "people of colour" instead.

And by the way, I'd like to point out to all those thinking of agreeing with Ivan's terrible arguments, that he believe's that it's acceptable to murder for no other reason than race.

Think about that.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 19:11
But since we're talking in ENGLISH now, can you stop using 'negro'. It's offensive. Use "black person" or "people of colour" instead.

Only after you stop teaching Russians how to speak their own language.
I was taught in my school - Negroes live in Africa. It’s a fact and not an offence.
Moreover, the site is in the Russian Internet domain and dedicated to Russia.
BTW. What is relation of the word to you to be that much offended with it? I do not understand….


And by the way, I'd like to point out to all those thinking of agreeing with Ivan's terrible arguments, that he believe's that it's acceptable to murder for no other reason than race.

Do you mean it was very disgraceful for the today’s migrants to murder my relatives in all the national republics they left now trying to save their families from starvation in their Independent New Brave Countries Without Russians they succeeded to built up with the Western help?
You are correct. Here I agree with you completely.
Just one point. Murdering Russians for you is not a valid reason for Russians to be outraged?
Why do you call it “no other reason than race”??? Mass murdering of Russians it’s not about “race”. It’s about murdering my relatives.
I have a strong impression from your posts you consider massacre of Russians as not a crime, man…

Carbo
31-03-2009, 19:20
According to the Western point of view, the USSR was a jail for nations oppressing national republics.
And after the brave nations of the republics freed themselves murdering and squeezing out Russians they came back to Russians?
Why?
And why I am obliged to love those recent murders of my relatives?
My own sister is a refugee from Azerbaijan. She escaped from Baku when they made those famous pogroms of Armenians and Russians there calling it liberation from Russians.
Why should I respect the murders who came now to their ex-oppressors trying to save their families from starvation?
To be free means full responsibility for your deeds, even to be free to starve under a fence.
Sorry, I've held back on this for long enough, but I can't: You're idiot racist scum.

I know how terrible terrorism is. We don't condone it. But two wrongs don't make a right.

You say that nazism is an acceptable response to Armenian actions? You say that killing and beating Armenians in Moscow is acceptable just because they are of the same nationality of those who did ill to Russians?

Don't you see that the scum Armenians who did the terrible thing to your sister and other Russians will have made EXACTLY THE SAME ARGUMENT??

Don't you see that by making this argument you are making their arguments acceptable?

Durak.

And you know something else? I'm sorry to have to say this, but I feel I must, the USSR WAS a cage that trapped countries.

You invaded Czechoslovakia because they wanted to have free press and free votes within a socialist system. You invaded Poland in 1981. Only 28 years ago for crying out loud. Not to mention what went on in the Baltics and Ukraine and the rest.

You know, as I mentioned earlier, I am very proud to be British, but I feel ashamed at what we British did in India, South Africa, Kenya, Ireland and many other places too. It makes me sick, and I can perfectly understand why the British are disliked by some people there.

Why can't you see the same about Russia's empire, Ivan?

And Ghostly, I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the way you've kept the argument civil, unlike the durak Ivan, but I didn't see any NATO soldiers tearing down the Iron Felix in Lyubyanskaya Ploschad back in the day.

I think you have a right to be upset about NATO reneging on its promises not to expand east, but I can't beleive, GP, that you can't understand why your former colonies would look west. Come on. Think about it. They've just escaped the tyranny of the USSR, and they have a choice between running back to their (now impoverished) former conquerors, or going to the (wealthy) west. What would you do? And I REALLY can't get round why you would 'blame' us for supporting the downfall of communism. Shouldn't you 'thank' us??

EDIT: I really feel uncomfortable with this post. I apologise for upsetting anyone. I should perhaps have the courage of my convictions, but I understand why many people would feel upset about what I wrote here. I know there are two sides to each story, and I hope that my inclusion of my own country's dark past will make people appreciate that I am not just Russia baiting here. Ivan baiting, maybe, but I'm not anti Russian: I'm anti-idiot.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 19:23
Only after you stop teaching Russians how to speak their own language.
I was taught in my school - Negroes live in Africa. Itís a fact and not an offence.
Moreover, the site is in the Russian Internet domain and dedicated to Russia.
BTW. What is relation of the word to you to be that much offended with it? I do not understandÖ.

FOR THE THIRD TIME. IT IS OK FOR RUSSIANS TO USE THE RUSSIAN WORD NEGR. I THINK THAT'S OK. IT'S NOT MY LANGUAGE AND I HAVE NO RIGHT TO PASS JUDGEMENT. BUT I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ELSE. I NEVER SAID THAT IT WASN'T OK. YOU ARE LYING IF YOU SAY I DID. THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I HAVE SAID THIS TO YOU. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?? CAN YOU RESPOND TO THIS SO I KNOW YOU UNDERSTAND

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 19:26
Itís amazing American logic.

When a Tajik kills Russian in Tajikistan, itís liberation from Russian oppression.
When a Russian kills Tajik in Russia, itís racism.

IMHO, itís the same crime.
But you do not consider it as a crime when Russians are victims of racism.

Why?

Jack17
31-03-2009, 19:26
No, massa. Offensive absurd under mask of a Negro-savior in brutal Russia was posted by you. My post was just an explanation of the fact against which you did not find any arguments to argue with and decided to save your face under a mask of offended virgin. :)
:whisper:"Virgin?" Where? In Moscow? How old? 14 +? I'm lost by the rest of this discussion debating the meaning of the word "negro" but "virgin" caught my ear. Now that's interesting. Could we pivot and spend some time discussing virgins? They're much more interesting than negros.:bedtime:

MickeyTong
31-03-2009, 19:29
Itís amazing American logic.

When a Tajik kills Russian in Tajikistan, itís liberation from Russian oppression.
When a Russian kills Tajik in Russia, itís racism.

IMHO, itís the same crime.
But you do not consider it as a crime when Russians are victims of racism.

Why?

Now you are putting words into his mouth......

Carbo
31-03-2009, 19:31
Itís amazing American logic.

When a Tajik kills Russian in Tajikistan, itís liberation from Russian oppression.
When a Russian kills Tajik in Russia, itís racism.

IMHO, itís the same crime.
But you do not consider it as a crime when Russians are victims of racism.

Why?
When a Tajik kills a Russian in Tajikistan it is murder. When a Russian kills a Tajik in Moscow, it's murder. Simple. Never said anything different.

Jack17
31-03-2009, 19:33
Does Russia now have Nazis and skins?
Yes
Did the USSR have?
No
Why?
Because, in those times nobody mass murdered anybody.
When others started doing this to Russians, Russians recalled their nationality and some of them recalled it too much.
If you want to struggle against a problem, cut out roots of it, not leaves.
Those Nazis are RESULT of the evil, not the primary evil itself.
:iagree: There's more than a little truth in that post. But. . .Ezov was Russian and I suspect between '36-'39 he probably murdered more Russians than anyone except the Germans.

Ghostly Presence
31-03-2009, 19:44
And you know something else? I'm sorry to have to say this, but I feel I must, the USSR WAS a cage that trapped countries.



Carbo,

That statement is not entirely true. Russian collonialism did trap some countries (Baltics, for example) but it also helped some of them move closer to civilization. Some of those nations (Kazakhstan is one example) did not even have their written language, before they became a part of the Russian empire. It is not all black-and-white - there are a lot of grey areas in the history of Russian Empire before and after the USSR came into existence.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 19:51
You're idiot racist scum.

It's very good you are trying to switch the discussion to personalities. It means you do not have any valid arguments :)


I know how terrible terrorism is. We don't condone it. But two wrongs don't make a right.

really? It's a scarecrow designed by State Dept of US to hide their thrive for Iraq oil reservoirs.
I KNOW what is dead relative murdered by your defendants.


You say that nazism is an acceptable response to Armenian actions? You say that killing and beating Armenians in Moscow is acceptable just because they are of the same nationality of those who did ill to Russians?

You are ignorant. Armenians were murdered by Azeri in Baku along with Russians. At least try to read what I if you ignorant :)


Don't you see that the scum Armenians who did the terrible thing to your sister and other Russians will have made EXACTLY THE SAME ARGUMENT??

Stop getting nervous due to lack of arguments and do not confront words Iíve never said, man :)


Durak.

You are definitely are getting out of arguments. And it pleases me a lot, man. :)


And you know something else? I'm sorry to have to say this, but I feel I must, the USSR WAS a cage that trapped countries.

I do not care what you think. Opinion of an ignorant person does not bother me :)


You invaded Czechoslovakia because they wanted to have free press and free votes within a socialist system.

Yes. Why not? You invaded Iraq, you bombed peaceful inhabitants of Serbian kindergartens. Why not for Russians? Look in mirror, sahib.


You invaded Poland in 1981.

Wow! Is it an alternative history of a grade D primary school student??? :)


Not to mention what went on in the Baltics and Ukraine and the rest.

Ukrainians did not exist before commies invented them in 1917. They are as Russians as me.
Baltic states were purchased by Peter the Great according to the Nishtadt peaceful agreement for 5 mln gold coins, sir. Nobody paid back the money so far. It the UE stole property belonging to Russia. Moreover the Baltic States are fascist and racist states praising SS-men and discriminating Russians.


You know, as I mentioned earlier, I am very proud to be British, but I feel ashamed at what we British did in India, South Africa, Kenya, Ireland and many other places too. It makes me sick, and I can perfectly understand why the British are disliked by some people there.

GB murdered thousand times more people all over the Earth. So just shut up and do not act as a teacher for those who did not commit that much crimes as your nation.


And Ghostly, I understand what you're saying, and I appreciate the way you've kept the argument civil, unlike the durak Ivan,

Great. This dirty thinking and writing sahib consider himself as "civilized".
You made my day, man. :)

Buddy, you are rude uncivilized and ignorant person!
You are one of the best creatures of the Rusophobic Zoo you made from Europe! :)

Jack17
31-03-2009, 19:52
Carbo,

You say a lot of reasonable things yet your words are not likely to fall on fertile soil here because people in Russia have grown suspicious of the West. Say what you want about paranoia, but we do have our reasons. The West actively supported the demise of the Soviet Union and we happily played along only to ultimately find ourselves in complete isolation with our former neighbors turning against us with active assistance from the West, with NATOís military circle tightening along our borders, with all kinds of barriers being erected that prevent Russian citizens from freely travelling and Russian companies from freely doing business in the West.

People feel cheated and they react with indignation when someone from the West tries to tell them what to do and what not to do, even when advice is sensible.

As I said earlier, the West has exhausted its moral authority with Russians and is unlikely to restore it any time soon.
:thumbsup:Ghostly, don't feel too badly, The West has exhausted it's moral authority with the West as well and isn't likely to regain it anytime soon after this financial crisis.
:coffee: But, seriously, how much Western news do you listen to? I watch Russian Novosti on Channel 1 and RTR everyday along with several US programs. Every US commentator and "news analyst" comments ceaselessly on how Bush ruined US/Russian relations and how Russia has legitimate concerns about security along its borders and within its historic sphere of influence. Only John McCain was crying about the poor Georgians. Every US news program said it was the Georgians who intentionally provoked the Russians. You might agree or disagree with that, but if there is a bias in the US media - it is a bias FOR Russia! I guarantee you that both the official, US, political and popular view of Russia is POSITIVE!!!!! All you have to do, if you have a satellite connection, is tune into any US news program.
Do that and forget about some Russian kid who alledgedly shop lifted something 10 years ago in Atlanta. Here's my peeve as an American: Russians believe Americans are unsophisticated and uncultured. Dividing my time almost equally between the two countries I can tell you your preconceptions about Americans are false. No American gives a damn about some kid from any country who "may" have shoplifted something. They do care a great deal about global issues of war and peace - with a strong preference for PEACE!:ok:

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 19:55
FOR THE THIRD TIME. IT IS OK FOR RUSSIANS TO USE THE RUSSIAN WORD NEGR. I THINK THAT'S OK. IT'S NOT MY LANGUAGE AND I HAVE NO RIGHT TO PASS JUDGEMENT. BUT I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ELSE. I NEVER SAID THAT IT WASN'T OK. YOU ARE LYING IF YOU SAY I

DID. THIS IS THE THIRD TIME I HAVE SAID THIS TO YOU. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?? CAN YOU RESPOND TO THIS SO I KNOW YOU UNDERSTAND

Oh, sahib! You are decently getting too exited!
If you are in Russian now, I'd advise you visiting a drug store and buying drops of Valeriana Root. It helps to retain your indecent orgasm in public areas. 

Carbo
31-03-2009, 19:56
It's very good you are trying to switch the discussion to personalities. It means you do not have any valid arguments :)



really? It's a scarecrow designed by State Dept of US to hide their thrive for Iraq oil reservoirs.
I KNOW what is dead relative murdered by your defendants.



You are ignorant. Armenians were murdered by Azeri in Baku along with Russians. At least try to read what I if you ignorant :)



Stop getting nervous due to lack of arguments and do not confront words I’ve never said, man :)



You are definitely are getting out of arguments. And it pleases me a lot, man. :)



I do not care what you think. Opinion of an ignorant person does not bother me :)



Yes. Why not? You invaded Iraq, you bombed peaceful inhabitants of Serbian kindergartens. Why not for Russians? Look in mirror, sahib.



Wow! Is it an alternative history of a grade D primary school student??? :)



Ukrainians did not exist before commies invented them in 1917. They are as Russians as me.
Baltic states were purchased by Peter the Great according to the Nishtadt peaceful agreement for 5 mln gold coins, sir. Nobody paid back the money so far. It the UE stole property belonging to Russia. Moreover the Baltic States are fascist and racist states praising SS-men and discriminating Russians.



GB murdered thousand times more people all over the Earth. So just shut up and do not act as a teacher for those who did not commit that much crimes as your nation.



Great. This dirty thinking and writing sahib consider himself as "civilized".
You made my day, man. :)

Buddy, you are rude uncivilized and ignorant person!
You are one of the best creatures of the Rusophobic Zoo you made from Europe! :)
You are a fool who reads not one of my posts or is not smart enough to understand them.

I admit the crimes of my country, but you cannot admit the crimes of yours. You have no defence for you opinions other than to criticise others. You say defend the invasion of Czechoslovakia by citing the invasion of Iraq?? That's the most absurd argument EVER. Does pointing to a fat man on the street make me any less fat, I wonder?

What's even worse is that you think it's great if Azeri kill Russians. You think that's completely acceptable. I don't understand you at all. I think you're either not very intelligent or a liar.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 19:59
:whisper:"Virgin?" Where? In Moscow? How old? 14 +? I'm lost by the rest of this discussion debating the meaning of the word "negro" but "virgin" caught my ear. Now that's interesting. Could we pivot and spend some time discussing virgins? They're much more interesting than negros.:bedtime:

Oh buddy. You are too late yet. There are no more virgins today in Moscow than in American primery shools.
You shoud visit Russia at least 20 years ago :)

Jack17
31-03-2009, 20:00
Oh, sahib! You are decently getting too exited!
If you are in Russian now, I'd advise you visiting a drug store and buying drops of Valeriana Root. It helps to retain your indecent orgasm in public areas. 
Ivan thanks, Valeriana, sounds like a poor man's Viagra? I'll remember that the next time I'm in the Apoteka.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 20:00
Oh, sahib! You are decently getting too exited!
If you are in Russian now, I'd advise you visiting a drug store and buying drops of Valeriana Root. It helps to retain your indecent orgasm in public areas. 
Well why do you insist on continuing to lie?

I really know how it must have felt to argue with a soviet now. You never stick to the point, you defend one action by citing another, completely irrelevant action, you can never accept that anything is ever wrong, and you continually lie to make your point.

Ghostly Presence
31-03-2009, 20:01
Carbo,

That statement is not entirely true. Russian collonialism did trap some countries (Baltics, for example) but it also helped some of them move closer to civilization. Some of those nations (Kazakhstan is one example) did not even have their written language, before they became a part of the Russian empire. It is not all black-and-white - there are a lot of grey areas in the history of Russian Empire before and after the USSR came into existence.

Also, many of those countries (Georgia is one example) were not conquered but rather willingly asked to be included into the Russian Empire to seek protection from their vicious neighbors that threatened their very existence as individual nations. The collapse of the USSR also turned out to be a great personal tragedy for millions of people. It is all indeed a lot more complicated than some westerners tend to see it.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:01
Now you are putting words into his mouth......

Living with wolves? Do howl as wolf!
(Russian saying...)

Jack17
31-03-2009, 20:04
Oh buddy. You are too late yet. There are no more virgins today in Moscow than in American primery shools.
You shoud visit Russia at least 20 years ago :)
:nono: Now Ivan, be nice. I did say 14 +. Anyway, I think we'd need to go back more than 20 years.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:04
:iagree: There's more than a little truth in that post. But. . .Ezov was Russian and I suspect between '36-'39 he probably murdered more Russians than anyone except the Germans.

Wrong guess.
Ezhov was Jewish
Beria was Georgian :)

Carbo
31-03-2009, 20:09
Also, many of those countries (Georgia is one example) were not conquered but rather willingly asked to be included into the Russian Empire to seek protection from their vicious neighbors that threatened their very existence as individual nations. The collapse of the USSR also turned out to be a great personal tragedy for millions of people. It is all indeed a lot more complicated than some westerners tend to see it.

100% agreed

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:13
[QUOTE]You are a fool who reads not one of my posts or is not smart enough to understand them.

So far, you were caught not reading my post and answering BS about some Armenians I did not write about.
BTW fool is not an argument :)


I admit the crimes of my country, but you cannot admit the crimes of yours.

To admit a crime you must at first commit a crime.


You have no defence for you opinions other than to criticise others. You say defend the invasion of Czechoslovakia by citing the invasion of Iraq?? That's the most absurd argument EVER. Does pointing to a fat man on the street make me any less fat, I wonder?

To CALL an argument absurd does not mean to PROVE it's absurd, sahib :)


What's even worse is that you think it's great if Azeri kill Russians.

Relax. You are confusing everything you read. I never wrote "it's great if Azeri kill Russians". Itís bad, sahib for me and great for people like you. Or it's just your delirium tremens, sahib, playing a bad joke with your brains :)

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:17
Ivan thanks, Valeriana, sounds like a poor man's Viagra? I'll remember that the next time I'm in the Apoteka.

Nope. It has opposite effect than Viagra. Do not you see the sahib on his peak of orgasm yet?
I would not proscribe him Viagra especially when he writes about Russia. He can die from multiple orgasms.

Take care, massa sahib. No more Viagra for you! 

Carbo
31-03-2009, 20:18
Relax. You are confusing everything you read. I never wrote "it's great if Azeri kill Russians". Itís bad, sahib for me and great for people like you. Or it's just your delirium tremens, sahib, playing a bad joke with your brains :)
No, I think it's very bad for people to murder. YOU on the other hand, think it is GOOD. You said that it is the normal reaction of Russians to beat and kill Azeri when Azeri have killed Russians.

Therefore you MUST think that it's ok for Azeri to then kill Russians because Russians kill Azeri.

You said it, not me.

OK. Bored now.

Calling your arguments absurd does not prove that they are, but the REASON I've called them absurd is BECAUSE THEY ARE.

Ask anyone here and they'll agree.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:19
:nono: Now Ivan, be nice. I did say 14 +. Anyway, I think we'd need to go back more than 20 years.

Not more. 20 years ago I checked them myself. They were usually OK.
Trust me :)

Carbo
31-03-2009, 20:21
Wrong guess.
Ezhov was Jewish

Why does being Jewish stop him from being Russian?

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:21
Well why do you insist on continuing to lie?

I really know how it must have felt to argue with a soviet now. You never stick to the point, you defend one action by citing another, completely irrelevant action, you can never accept that anything is ever wrong, and you continually lie to make your point.

You do not have any arguments at all. Just propaganda cliches from Western Rusophobic toilet-papers you call mass media.
The are ass media, sahib... :)

Carbo
31-03-2009, 20:24
You do not have any arguments at all. Just propaganda cliches from Western Rusophobic toilet-papers you call mass media.
The are ass media, sahib... :)

Did you read any of the links I posted where I was critical of the western press's coverage of Russia?

All you're doing now is disagreeing with what I say, making wild accusations that have no basis in fact, and deliberately trying to stoke argument. So I'm out.

Wodin
31-03-2009, 20:25
Methinks Guestyboy is back :hooray:

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:27
[QUOTE] You said that it is the normal reaction of Russians to beat and kill Azeri when Azeri have killed Russians.

What are going to do if somebody kills your sister or daughter? Ranting about peace?
Then you are just coward, sahib.


Therefore you MUST think that it's ok for Azeri to then kill Russians because Russians kill Azeri.

They already did it in Azerbaijan so not threat exists now. You cannot scare somebody with something you did already.


Calling your arguments absurd does not prove that they are, but the REASON I've called them absurd is BECAUSE THEY ARE.

Saying is not proving, oh, sahib :)


Ask anyone here and they'll agree.

I'm an adult person and do not need any outside support in questions I experienced myself, sahib. The time when you acted as teacher in 90s are gone with wind.

Jack17
31-03-2009, 20:28
Not more. 20 years ago I checked them myself. They were usually OK.
Trust me :)
OK, due only to your demonstrated superior knowledge of aphrodisiacs, I'll defer to your judgement.:inlove:

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:30
Why does being Jewish stop him from being Russian?

in the same way as being Russian prevents being Jewish :)

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:32
OK, due only to your demonstrated superior knowledge of aphrodisiacs, I'll defer to your judgement.:inlove:
Buddy, it not an aphrodisiac. It's sedative :)

Carbo
31-03-2009, 20:33
Methinks Guestyboy is back :hooray:

Oh, I would love to think I'd induced him out of retirement.

But the English is worse and he's not that much of an idiot. This would only be guest if he had come back to deliberately troll.

Or maybe I'm looking at this with rose tinted specs? Was Guess really this bad?

I don't think so.

Guest also had plenty of useful things to add, lest we forget.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 20:35
in the same way as being Russian prevents being Jewish :)
Errrr... Riiight...

Like Abramovich? Right? Or what about the millions of Russian jews in Israel the US and the UK? Or the Russian Jewish colony around Chita? (Was it Chita?)

Anyway, I suggest that it's possible to be Russian and a Jew just as it's possible to be German and a jew, or an Arab and French, or Asian and English.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:36
This would only be guest if he had come back to deliberately troll.
.

troll is a person who does not have arguments except durak, just like you, sahib :)

Jack17
31-03-2009, 20:37
Why does being Jewish stop him from being Russian?
Ah Hah Ivan!!:shame: You fell for my trick!! I thought my reference to Ezov would expose your latent Russian prejudice towards ethnic minorities!!
Actually, all my readings indicated Ezov was an ethnic Russian; but I'll defer to you as a Native Russian to know if Ezov is a Jewish name. Is it?

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:39
Errrr... Riiight...

Like Abramovich? Right? Or what about the millions of Russian jews in Israel the US and the UK? Or the Russian Jewish colony around Chita? (Was it Chita?)

Anyway, I suggest that it's possible to be Russian and a Jew just as it's possible to be German and a jew, or an Arab and French, or Asian and English.

What about Russian speaking Jews in Israel?
They are just Jews who speak Russian.
Speaking other language does not change your nationality, sahib.
May be you are confusing citizenship with nationality?
Very poor education system you have in GB then, sahib :)

Wodin
31-03-2009, 20:41
Oh, I would love to think I'd induced him out of retirement.

But the English is worse and he's not that much of an idiot. This would only be guest if he had come back to deliberately troll.

Or maybe I'm looking at this with rose tinted specs? Was Guess really this bad?

I don't think so.

Guest also had plenty of useful things to add, lest we forget.

Same style, same "Russia is perfect, foreigners and foreign media's only purpose in life is to screw Russia", same dislike of ethnics...

I hope it is. I still miss the little game.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:42
Anyway, I suggest that it's possible to be Russian and a Jew just as it's possible to be German and a jew, or an Arab and French, or Asian and English.


You can suggest whatever you want.
You can even suggest you are a civilized polite and educated person.
It's your right, sahib :)

Carbo
31-03-2009, 20:43
troll is a person who does not have arguments except durak, just like you, sahib :)
Wrong again, Durak. You really should look up troll.

But even if that was the definition of troll, and not some racist durak's interpretation, then you would realise that I have made plenty of decent arguments.

And some people disagree, but they are there.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:45
Same style, same "Russia is perfect, foreigners and foreign media's only purpose in life is to screw Russia", same dislike of ethnics...

I hope it is. I still miss the little game.

OK. Could you please give me a reference to an article in significant Western newspaper writing without lie about Russia? Let say WP.
go ahead... I will wait for awhile...

Jack17
31-03-2009, 20:45
Errrr... Riiight...

Like Abramovich? Right? Or what about the millions of Russian jews in Israel the US and the UK? Or the Russian Jewish colony around Chita? (Was it Chita?)

Anyway, I suggest that it's possible to be Russian and a Jew just as it's possible to be German and a jew, or an Arab and French, or Asian and English.
Speaking of Russian Jews, whatever happened to Rosenberg, the folk singer from Novosibirsk? I never see him on Cybotniy Vyacher anymore; always Boskov and the babushki humorists. I'd like to register my vote to bring back Rosenberg and Glucosa to Russian TV.
To any American, the answer to Carbo's question is intuitively obvious since all of us are hyphenated "something" Americans. Except for Native Americans, who immigrated from Siberia 10,000 years ago. So maybe the only true Americans are Russians?!!! Who would've thought?

Carbo
31-03-2009, 20:46
What about Russian speaking Jews in Israel?
They are just Jews who speak Russian.
Speaking other language does not change your nationality, sahib.
May be you are confusing citizenship with nationality?
Very poor education system you have in GB then, sahib :)
No, they are Russian. Go and ask them. They're Jewish, just as there are Jewish Engish people, and Jewish Germans.

Just like Abramovich is Russian, but is Jewish, no?

Are you saying that a Jew can't be a true Russian?

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:52
Ah Hah Ivan!!:shame: You fell for my trick!! I thought my reference to Ezov would expose your latent Russian prejudice towards ethnic minorities!!
Actually, all my readings indicated Ezov was an ethnic Russian; but I'll defer to you as a Native Russian to know if Ezov is a Jewish name. Is it?

He was half Russian and half Lithuanian from a family of bums. Mother is unknown at all.

ďОтец спился и умер, о матери ничего не известно. Ежов был наполовину русский, наполовину литовецĒ
–ē–∂–ĺ–≤, –Ě–ł–ļ–ĺ–Ľ–į–Ļ –ė–≤–į–Ĺ–ĺ–≤–ł—á ‚ÄĒ –í–ł–ļ–ł–Ņ–Ķ–ī–ł—Ź (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%95%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%B2,_%D0%9D%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B9_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87)
And because of the complicated pedigree he hated Russians

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:54
Wrong again, Durak. You really should look up troll.

But even if that was the definition of troll, and not some racist durak's interpretation, then you would realise that I have made plenty of decent arguments.

And some people disagree, but they are there.


As I see you still do not have any arguments except durak and racist :)

Jack17
31-03-2009, 20:54
What about Russian speaking Jews in Israel?
They are just Jews who speak Russian.
Speaking other language does not change your nationality, sahib.
May be you are confusing citizenship with nationality?
Very poor education system you have in GB then, sahib :)
:11088:Now here's a twist, my Sabra (native born Israelis) Jewish friends tell me that the new immigrant Jews from Russia are looked down on and treated as dirt in Israel by the Sabra. I have no reason to believe this is not true and it just proves if Jews are prejudiced toward other Jews that prejudice is indeed a universal phenomenon.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 20:57
Racist is a person considering some nations worse than others

Where have I written that??
You're liar, sahib? :)

I see, you do not have any arguments except labels...

Wodin
31-03-2009, 20:58
OK. Could you please give me a reference to an article in significant Western newspaper writing without lie about Russia? Let say WP.
go ahead... I will wait for awhile...

Yeah sure...there ya go:

Has Russia got its groove back? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/5024779/Has-Russia-got-its-groove-back.html)

There again...if what you mean by "writing without lie" would be something that says that all is well and hunky dory with russia, and that Russia is the bestest, kindest place bar none since sliced bread, and that all it's people are smiling happy rich and safe, and that the political system in Russia is the best bar none...then I fear you might have to wait a while.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 21:00
Racist is a person considering some nations worse than others

Where have I written that??
You're liar, sahib? :)

I see, you do not have any arguments except labels...
Again, wrong, durak.

Read it. "Racism, by its simplest definition is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.[1] People with racist beliefs exhibit stereotype-based prejudices towards individuals and groups of people according to their race."

And from the Cambridge Dictionary:

"The belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races:"

And I think you fall into that quite well.

EDIT: OK, that's me done with the durak. Fun as it has been, this is going nowhere.

Jack17
31-03-2009, 21:02
OK. Could you please give me a reference to an article in significant Western newspaper writing without lie about Russia? Let say WP.
go ahead... I will wait for awhile...
:bookworm: The Nation. Very prominent US political news magazine. It's been in publication since 1865. The editor in chief, Katrina vanden Heuvel, is always on US TV and is more pro Russian than any Russian I've heard. It's online at www.thenation.com (http://www.thenation.com) Expand your reading and you might change your views.

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 21:04
No, they are Russian. Go and ask them. They're Jewish, just as there are Jewish Engish people, and Jewish Germans.

Just like Abramovich is Russian, but is Jewish, no?

Are you saying that a Jew can't be a true Russian?


It's again an issue of not understanding Russian language.
We have in Russian:
Русские = Russians = Russian nationality
Российские = Rossians = anyone having citizenship of the Russian Federation.
In English you do not take the difference into account in translations.
And in Russia it's not confused by anybody.
Moreover, in Israel as well they tell very easy who is Jewish and who is Russian.
And they bury Jewish dead inside cemeteries but Russian Israelites (NOT Jewish!! as you wrote here!!) outside its fences.
So with them everything is OK. It's a problem with your ignorance, sahib :)

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 21:07
:11088:Now here's a twist, my Sabra (native born Israelis) Jewish friends tell me that the new immigrant Jews from Russia are looked down on and treated as dirt in Israel by the Sabra. I have no reason to believe this is not true and it just proves if Jews are prejudiced toward other Jews that prejudice is indeed a universal phenomenon.

I know the fact. And the Jews from ex-USSR are the most humiliated there. Because of that, they are returning to Russia now. In Russia they had fewer problems with their nationality than in Israel.

Jack17
31-03-2009, 21:08
I know the fact. And the Jews from ex-USSR are the most humiliated there. Because of that, they are returning to Russia now. In Russia they had fewer problems with their nationality than in Israel.
:11629:That's my read too. Irony?

IvanXXIV
31-03-2009, 21:10
Yeah sure...there ya go:

Has Russia got its groove back? - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/5024779/Has-Russia-got-its-groove-back.html)

There again...if what you mean by "writing without lie" would be something that says that all is well and hunky dory with russia, and that Russia is the bestest, kindest place bar none since sliced bread, and that all it's people are smiling happy rich and safe, and that the political system in Russia is the best bar none...then I fear you might have to wait a while.


Nope. Russia has a lot of problems as any other country in the World. But Western mass media exaggerate them and omit anything positive. And the most important is they have double standards like to the events with Kosovo and Ossetia.

Carbo
31-03-2009, 21:13
It's again an issue of not understanding Russian language.
We have in Russian:
Русские = Russians = Russian nationality
Российские = Rossians = anyone having citizenship of the Russian Federation.
In English you do not take the difference into account in translations.
And in Russia it's not confused by anybody.
Moreover, in Israel as well they tell very easy who is Jewish and who is Russian.
And they bury Jewish dead inside cemeteries but Russian Israelites (NOT Jewish!! as you wrote here!!) outside its fences.
So with them everything is OK. It's a problem with your ignorance, sahib :)
So what constitutes "Русские"?