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Gypsy
15-01-2009, 15:43
Warning of a Clear and Present Danger to the Lives and Well-Being of Tens of Thousands of Civilians in the Gaza Strip http://www.alternativenews.org/images/M_images/printButton.png (http://www.alternativenews.org/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1536&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=381) http://www.alternativenews.org/images/M_images/emailButton.png (http://www.alternativenews.org/index2.php?option=com_content&task=emailform&id=1536&itemid=381) Written by Israeli Human Rights NGOs (http://www.alternativenews.org/component/option,com_comprofiler/task,userProfile/user,83/Itemid,381/) Wednesday, 14 January 2009

http://www.alternativenews.org/images/stories/news/boy_in_gaza_rubble_14_01_09.jpg
A Palestinian boy standing in rubble following air strikes by the Israelis on the Gaza Strip.

Dear Friends, A press conference was held in Jerusalem today in which Israeli human rights NGOs (including PCATI) read its statement to the Israeli Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, warning of the clear humanitarian danger looming in Gaza and pointed out the severe nature of Israeli action in the course of its war in Gaza which blatantly violates the human and humanitarian rights of civilians in Gaza. Stating " This kind of fighting constitutes a blatant violation of the laws of warfare and raises the suspicion, which we ask be investigated, of the commission of war crimes."
Member organizations also pointed out that their concern is for the rights and PROTECTION of all CIVILIANS with no national, religious or other distinction, Israelis and Palestinians. The fact that the damage being done to the Palesitinian civilian population, the destruction of its institutions, infrastructure and the vast loss of life among Palestinians is so monumental and being done by Israeli forces necesitates a very particular Israeli response that calls on the Government of Israel and Israeli citizens to look in the mirror and to be concerned about what they see.

The text of the letter to the Prime Minister can be found below.

Louis Frankenthaler
Development & International Outreach Director
Public Committee Against Torture in Israel (PCATI)
PO BOX 4634, Jerusalem 91046 Israel
Tel. 972-2-642-9825
Fax. 972-2-643-2847
\n louis@stoptorture.org.il This e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it
”••ע“ ”צ™‘•ר™ *’“ ע™*•™™ם ‘™שראœ (http://www.stoptorture.org.il)
Adalah -- The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel | Amnesty International Israel Section | Bimkom -- Planners for Planning Rights | B’tselem -- The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories | Gisha -- Legal Center for Freedom of Movement Hamoked -- Center for Defence of the Individual | Physicians for Human Rights -- Israel Public Committee Against Torture in Israel | Yesh Din -- Volunteers for Human Rights


A Clear and Present Danger


An Israeli Call for Urgent Humanitarian Action in Gaza
January 14, 2009
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert
Defense Minister Ehud Barak
Chief of Staff Lieut. Gen. Gaby Ashkenazi
OC Southern Command Maj. Gen. Yoav Galant
Atty. Gen. Menachem Mazuz



RE: Warning of a clear and present danger to the lives and well-being of tens of thousands of civilians


Since the beginning of the campaign in Gaza on December 27, a heavy suspicion has arisen of grave violations of international humanitarian law by military forces. After the end of the hostilities, the time will come for the investigation of this matter, and accountability will be demanded of those responsible for the violations. At this point we call your attention to the clear and present danger to the lives and well-being of tens of thousands of civilians.
The level of harm to the civilian population is unprecedented. According to the testimony of residents of the Gaza Strip and media reports, military forces are making wanton use of lethal force which has to date caused the deaths of hundreds of uninvolved civilians and destroyed infrastructure and property on an enormous scale. In addition, Israel is also hitting civilian objects, having defined them as "legitimate military targets" solely by virtue of their being "symbols of government."
Caught in the middle are 1.5 million civilians in extreme humanitarian distress, whose needs are not being adequately met by the limited measures taken by the army. That distress is detailed in the Appendix to this letter. Its main points are as follows:

The fighting is taking place throughout the Gaza Strip, whose border crossings are closed, so that residents have nowhere to flee, neither inside the Gaza Strip nor by leaving it. Many are unable to escape from the battle zone to protect themselves. They are forced to live in fear and terror. The army's demand that they evacuate their homes so as to avoid injury has no basis. Some people who did escape are living as refugees, stripped of all resources.
The health system has collapsed. Hospitals are unable to provide adequate treatment to the injured, nor can patients be evacuated to medical centers outside of the Gaza Strip. This state of affairs is causing the death of injured persons who could have been saved. Nor are chronic patients receiving the treatment they need. Their health is deteriorating, and some have already died.
Areas that were subject to intensive attacks are completely isolated. It is impossible to know the condition of the people who are there, whether they are injured and need treatment and whether they have food, water and medicine. The army is preventing local and international rescue teams from accessing those places and is also refraining from helping them itself, even though it is required to do so by law.
Many of the residents do not have access to electricity or running water, and in many populated areas sewage water is running in the streets. That combination creates severe sanitation problems and increases the risk of an outbreak of epidemics. This kind of fighting constitutes a blatant violation of the laws of warfare and raises the suspicion, which we ask be investigated, of the commission of war crimes.
The responsibility of the State of Israel in this matter is clear and beyond doubt. The army's complete control of the battle zones and the access roads to them does not allow Israel to transfer that responsibility to other countries. Therefore we call on you to act immediately as follows:

Stop the disproportionate harm to civilians, and stop targeting civilian objects that do not serve any military purpose, even if they meet the definition of "symbols of government."
Open a route for civilians to escape the battle zone, while guaranteeing their ability to return home at the end of the fighting.
Provide appropriate and immediate medical care to all of the injured and ill of the Gaza Strip, either by evacuating them to medical centers outside of the Gaza Strip or by reaching another solution inside the Gaza Strip.
Allow rescue and medical teams to reach battle-torn zones to evacuate the injured and bring supplies to those who remain there. Alternatively, the army must carry out those activities itself.
Secure the proper operation of the electricity, water and sewage systems so that they meet the needs of the population. Sincerely,
Atty. Fatmeh El-Ajou
Adalah -- The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel

Vered Cohen Barzilay
Amnesty International Israel Section

Dr. Haim Yaakoby
Bimkom -- Planners for Planning Rights

Jessica Montell
B’tselem -- The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

Atty. Sari Bashi
Gisha -- Legal Center for Freedom of Movement

Dalia Kerstein
Hamoked -- Center for Defence of the Individual

Prof. Zvi Bentwich
Physicians for Human Rights -- Israel

Dr. Ishai Menuchin
Public Committee Against Torture in Israel

Atty. Michael Sfard
Yesh Din -- Volunteers for Human Rights

Apologies for the formatting - or lack of - I'm not techy enough tosort it out.

The picture is still clear though

fenrir
15-01-2009, 19:16
And yet they keep firing their ------- rockets. They deserve everything that is happening to them, just like the Germans got for not surrendering to the Allies.

Carbo
15-01-2009, 20:39
And yet they keep firing their ------- rockets. They deserve everything that is happening to them, just like the Germans got for not surrendering to the Allies.
Your rational is retarded.

Why does the civilian population deserve this?

robertmf
15-01-2009, 20:47
And yet they keep firing their ------- rockets. They deserve everything that is happening to them, just like the Germans got for not surrendering to the Allies.

I'll go along with the first part and the Lebanon may soon be in the mix .. but the Germans' analogy isn't there. The Krauts were fighting at the end with kids and old men. The reason I go along with the first part of your sentence is that I for one am not so sure there **are** any "civilians" in Gaza.

(I have a basic mistrust of news originating with 'NGO')

Kvartiraokhotnik
15-01-2009, 21:19
And yet they keep firing their ------- rockets. They deserve everything that is happening to them, just like the Germans got for not surrendering to the Allies.

Just like the blacks got for not surrendering to the KKK eh?

And the Vietnamese for not surrendering to the US.

And the British during the blitz for not surrendering to the Nazis.

You have no soul. Therefore you argue that honest resistance = evil. And agent orange is like fags and booze.......

Carbo
15-01-2009, 21:46
Just like the blacks got for not surrendering to the KKK eh?

And the Vietnamese for not surrendering to the US.

And the British during the blitz for not surrendering to the Nazis.

You have no soul. Therefore you argue that honest resistance = evil. And agent orange is like fags and booze.......
Great post.

DDT
15-01-2009, 22:22
Your rational is retarded.

Why does the civilian population deserve this?
You ignore the entire world history on war! Civilians are ALWAYS involved in the operation of any army. Somebody has to keep, feed and care for an army. Why do you think armies crops burned before leaving town. Why do you think we blew up German ball bearing factories?

These Arabs civilians in Gaza overwhelmingly are anti-Israel. They allow rockets and bombs to be kept and fired from their homes, hospitals and schools, so THEY GET BOMBED for their "hospitality". Just like the Germans got bombed for for supporting the German war machine. Just like the Japs got bombed for theirs. Just like the Yanks got bombed for theirs, Just like the Aussies got bombed by the Japs for theirs. Just like the Poms got bombed by Hitler in the London Blitz for theirs. And so on through history. You don't have kill the other side's entire army if you prevent them from raising and equipping an army in the first place.

RRM
15-01-2009, 22:22
We all know that this is a conflict that goes back to whatever in time and both groups can argue all they want. One thing is for certain, this recent conflict was started as soon as a week's worth of rockets were launched into Israel. If I were an Israeli, I would want no rockets hitting my apartment while I am sleeping. And I wouldnt want my government to let us be sitting ducks while these rockets keep pouring.
On the other hand, if I were a Gazan I would question why the entire apartment block including families and children had to be wiped out for that one idiot who is launching rockets from my terrace.
Nobody deserves this on both sides. There are solutions to this but defenitely not the level of extremism on both sides.

Wodin
15-01-2009, 22:33
We all know that this is a conflict that goes back to whatever in time and both groups can argue all they want. One thing is for certain, this recent conflict was started as soon as a week's worth of rockets were launched into Israel. If I were an Israeli, I would want no rockets hitting my apartment while I am sleeping. And I wouldnt want my government to let us be sitting ducks while these rockets keep pouring.
On the other hand, if I were a Gazan I would question why the entire apartment block including families and children had to be wiped out for that one idiot who is launching rockets from my terrace.
Nobody deserves this on both sides. There are solutions to this but defenitely not the level of extremism on both sides.

Too true...and the first bit of the solution is for somebody to eliminate the extremists....

Maybe the IDF will do the first bit by killing off as many hamas as possible and then teh Israelis will elect a government that's up for real peace.

DDT
15-01-2009, 22:34
You have no soul. Therefore you argue that honest resistance = evil. .Where has he said that "honest resistance = evil"?

If you don't already know the difference between good and evil or you are simply stupid, then you will never know when to fight and when not to fight.

99.9% of Gaza follow the teachings of a serial killing, camel train looting madman from the 7th century! I think I'll put my money on the government of Israel to know which is good and which is bad, and when it's time and who to fight!

robertmf
15-01-2009, 22:41
... if I were a **john doe with family** I would question why the entire apartment block including families and children had to be wiped out for that one idiot who is launching rockets from my terrace.

I'd have the tendency to get another or two neighbors and go after 'one idiiot' (no reference to Gogol) rather quickly.

Just remember that after the US 9/11 there was no condemnation of the acts by the Arab moslem community.

DDT
15-01-2009, 22:43
Nobody deserves this on both sides. There are solutions to this but defenitely not the level of extremism on both sides.
What's extreme about leveling the entire apartment block of Gazans even if it saved YOUR life, only? Are you telling me that you would rather be dead? You would gladly give up your life for all those people in the apartment block (who all hate you by the way and would rather see you dead) and what's more, who had been telephoned probably beforehand to tell them that they were to be targeted!
Nobody cares how many of the enemies families are dead if it saves their own! That's just a fact of life.

Kvartiraokhotnik
15-01-2009, 23:07
What's extreme about leveling the entire apartment block of Gazans even if it saved YOUR life, only? Are you telling me that you would rather be dead? You would gladly give up your life for all those people in the apartment block (who all hate you by the way and would rather see you dead) and what's more, who had been telephoned probably beforehand to tell them that they were to be targeted!
Nobody cares how many of the enemies families are dead if it saves their own! That's just a fact of life.

Was it Captain Spock who said ''the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few''

wise and logical mo-fo.

i think DDT is arguing that if he had a choice between saving his own hide at the cost of millions of others lives....he would choose to save his own hide.

That self-less Jew who died on the cross is born again!

Zeig heil to the new messiah!

Kvartiraokhotnik
15-01-2009, 23:12
Too true...and the first bit of the solution is for somebody to eliminate the extremists....

Maybe the IDF will do the first bit by killing off as many hamas as possible and then teh Israelis will elect a government that's up for real peace.

You dont know how pleased I am to (unsurprisingly) see DDT arguing on your side again Wodin. He agrees with you in every respect it would seem, but has less talent in debating.

DDT
15-01-2009, 23:31
Was it Captain Spock who said ''the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few''


But they DON"T outweigh the RIGHTS of the few!

Wodin
15-01-2009, 23:49
You dont know how pleased I am to (unsurprisingly) see DDT arguing on your side again Wodin. He agrees with you in every respect it would seem, but has less talent in debating.

I find it highly offensive to be compared to insecticide actually.

I would also point out that I am not in any way shape or form arguing that Israel is blameless and that the fault lies with the Palestinians because they are muslim, as a certain unmentionable seems to have done.

My point is that the sooner Hamas are out of the picture, then the sooner the world can get back to trying to get the israelis and moderate palestinains in the west bank talking again.

If you can't see the distinction between the two positions then I would suggest to you that you need to learn how to read. It helps!

Kvartiraokhotnik
16-01-2009, 00:05
I find it highly offensive to be compared to insecticide actually.

I would also point out that I am not in any way shape or form arguing that Israel is blameless and that the fault lies with the Palestinians because they are muslim, as a certain unmentionable seems to have done.

My point is that the sooner Hamas are out of the picture, then the sooner the world can get back to trying to get the israelis and moderate palestinains in the west bank talking again.

If you can't see the distinction between the two positions then I would suggest to you that you need to learn how to read. It helps!

So, if you understand that Hamas are not the only ones killing babies then perhaps you realise the sooner the state sponsored terrorism of the Israeli government is out of the picture, the sooner the moderate Palestinians can return to living a peaceful existence.

If the home made rockets must go, the white phosphorous, bulldozing of homes, and blockades of essential supplies must go also.

Do you agree? Yes or No?

WODIN (wotan, Odin et al...) Norse god of war and death....

I imagine you're loving this old chum :)

and FENRIR...well if he isnt from Norse Mythology as well. I wonder if you two guys have met? According to Norse mythology, you have!

Fenrir (or Fenris) is a gigantic and terrible monster in the shape of a wolf. He is the eldest child of Loki and the giantess Angrboda. The gods learned of a prophecy which stated that the wolf and his family would one day be responsible for the destruction of the world. They caught the wolf and locked him in a cage. Only the god of war, Tyr, dared to feed and take care of the wolf.
When he was still a pup they had nothing to fear, but when the gods saw one day how he had grown, they decided to render him harmless. However, none of the gods had enough courage to face the gigantic wolf. Instead, they tried to trick him. They said the wolf was weak and could never break free when he was chained. Fenrir accepted the challenge and let the gods chain him. Unfortunately, he was so immensely strong that he managed to break the strongest fetters as if they were cobwebs.

After that, the gods saw only one alternative left: a magic chain. They ordered the dwarves to make something so strong that it could hold the wolf. The result was a soft, thin ribbon: Gleipnir. It was incredibly strong, despite what its size and appearance might suggest. The ribbon was fashioned of six strange elements: the footstep of a cat; the roots of a mountain; a woman's beard; the breath of fishes; the sinews of a bear; and a bird's spittle.

The gods tried to trick the wolf again, only this time Fenrir was less eager to show his strength. He saw how thin the chain was, and said that was no pride in breaking such a weak chain. Eventually, though, he agreed, thinking that otherwise his strength and courage would be doubted. Suspecting treachery however, he in turn asked the gods for a token of good will: one of them had to put a hand between his jaws. The gods were not overly eager to do this, knowing what they could expect. Finally, only Tyr agreed, and the gods chained the wolf with Gleipnir. No matter how hard Fenrir struggled, he could not break free from this thin ribbon. In revenge, he bit off Tyr's hand.

Being very pleased with themselves, the gods carried Fenrir off and chained him to a rock (called Gioll) a mile down into the earth. They put a sword between his jaws to prevent him from biting. On the day of Ragnarok, Fenrir will break his chains and join the giants in their battle against the gods. He will seek out Odin and devour him. Vidar, Odin's son, will avenge his father by killing the wolf.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

robertmf
16-01-2009, 00:17
... If the home made rockets must go, the white phosphorous, bulldozing of homes,


What's the context for the white phosphorus ? I haven't heard of that being used ...

DDT
16-01-2009, 01:32
My point is that the sooner Hamas are out of the picture, then the sooner the world can get back to trying to get the israelis and moderate palestinains in the west bank talking again.
When has there been any moderate Palestinians? They have been calling for the complete destruction of Israel from the beginning. Do you call that moderate? Or do you have some secret information to share?



If you can't see the distinction between the two positions then I would suggest to you that you need to learn how to read. It helps!You had better toe your party's line or you will be shunned! Other opinions are not welcome in the Far Left world.

Wodin
16-01-2009, 01:37
So, if you understand that Hamas are not the only ones killing babies then perhaps you realise the sooner the state sponsored terrorism of the Israeli government is out of the picture, the sooner the moderate Palestinians can return to living a peaceful existence.

If the home made rockets must go, the white phosphorous, bulldozing of homes, and blockades of essential supplies must go also.

Do you agree? Yes or No?

WODIN (wotan, Odin et al...) Norse god of war and death....

I imagine you're loving this old chum :)

and FENRIR...well if he isnt from Norse Mythology as well. I wonder if you two guys have met? According to Norse mythology, you have!

Fenrir (or Fenris) is a gigantic and terrible monster in the shape of a wolf. He is the eldest child of Loki and the giantess Angrboda. The gods learned of a prophecy which stated that the wolf and his family would one day be responsible for the destruction of the world. They caught the wolf and locked him in a cage. Only the god of war, Tyr, dared to feed and take care of the wolf.
When he was still a pup they had nothing to fear, but when the gods saw one day how he had grown, they decided to render him harmless. However, none of the gods had enough courage to face the gigantic wolf. Instead, they tried to trick him. They said the wolf was weak and could never break free when he was chained. Fenrir accepted the challenge and let the gods chain him. Unfortunately, he was so immensely strong that he managed to break the strongest fetters as if they were cobwebs.

After that, the gods saw only one alternative left: a magic chain. They ordered the dwarves to make something so strong that it could hold the wolf. The result was a soft, thin ribbon: Gleipnir. It was incredibly strong, despite what its size and appearance might suggest. The ribbon was fashioned of six strange elements: the footstep of a cat; the roots of a mountain; a woman's beard; the breath of fishes; the sinews of a bear; and a bird's spittle.

The gods tried to trick the wolf again, only this time Fenrir was less eager to show his strength. He saw how thin the chain was, and said that was no pride in breaking such a weak chain. Eventually, though, he agreed, thinking that otherwise his strength and courage would be doubted. Suspecting treachery however, he in turn asked the gods for a token of good will: one of them had to put a hand between his jaws. The gods were not overly eager to do this, knowing what they could expect. Finally, only Tyr agreed, and the gods chained the wolf with Gleipnir. No matter how hard Fenrir struggled, he could not break free from this thin ribbon. In revenge, he bit off Tyr's hand.

Being very pleased with themselves, the gods carried Fenrir off and chained him to a rock (called Gioll) a mile down into the earth. They put a sword between his jaws to prevent him from biting. On the day of Ragnarok, Fenrir will break his chains and join the giants in their battle against the gods. He will seek out Odin and devour him. Vidar, Odin's son, will avenge his father by killing the wolf.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wow! You really are quite thick aren't you?

Why the devil is it always me who has to educate you?

must be my sad fate in life...

well...here goes:

Hamas....ditched cease fire...started firing rockets....israeli PM went on arab telly asking them to stop...Hamas don't...IDF go in to take them out.

So, read what I wrote in my previous post and them maybe, if you fire up and rub together the two brain cells you seem to have...you might get it:

1. hamas won't stop firing rockets. They want Israel pushed out of dal el islam.
2. Fatah are open to a deal, but can't becauser hamas keep screwing it up.
3. Hamas need to die...disappear...become history.
4. When that happens, then maybe the Israelis would be pressed into a deal and the killing of babies stops.

They (Fatah and moderate jews) can't do that now because Hamas (a) says it wants to kill all jews; and (b) because hamas keeps firing kasams and katuyushkas into Israel, and no State can accept that sort of thing.

Finally, just to answer your pretty obnoxious statement..NO...I do not enjoy watching dear old ladies, babies and men and women dying. Not in the least bit. I am, however aware that the same old ladies, etc voted in Hamas. They got the government they wanted and that government bought fire and brimstone down on its people. Maybe they should get rid of hamas themselves...huh?

ps....let the wolf come...i'll just butcher it and eat it for breakfast with my coffee.

pps...I do hope that I showed you that I can also debate unsubtly.....

robertmf
16-01-2009, 01:38
From the point of view here, DDT is making a valid argument

Wodin
16-01-2009, 01:40
When has there been any moderate Palestinians? They have been calling for the complete destruction of Israel from the beginning. Do you call that moderate? Or do you have some secret information to share?

Fatah. They have accepted Israel's right to exist...quite a few years ago. Do get up to date.



You had better toe your party's line or you will be shunned! Other opinions are not welcome in the Far Left world.

Please take this sentence as a substitute for my middle finger.

Carbo
16-01-2009, 02:03
You ignore the entire world history on war! Civilians are ALWAYS involved in the operation of any army. Somebody has to keep, feed and care for an army. Why do you think armies crops burned before leaving town. Why do you think we blew up German ball bearing factories?

These Arabs civilians in Gaza overwhelmingly are anti-Israel. They allow rockets and bombs to be kept and fired from their homes, hospitals and schools, so THEY GET BOMBED for their "hospitality". Just like the Germans got bombed for for supporting the German war machine. Just like the Japs got bombed for theirs. Just like the Yanks got bombed for theirs, Just like the Aussies got bombed by the Japs for theirs. Just like the Poms got bombed by Hitler in the London Blitz for theirs. And so on through history. You don't have kill the other side's entire army if you prevent them from raising and equipping an army in the first place.
Stating historical fact doesn't change a thing. We all know what armies have done in the past, but just because something has happened, doesn't make it right, or wrong, for that matter.

It's like me saying that curbing free speech in Iran is acceptable because of historical precedent.

As it does with free speech, the western world has the best record in history when it comes to war. Why spoil it? Why then justify those who spoil it by saying, "well, Stalin did worse" or "do you not know what war is about?"

We all know what war has been about, and know what is done in war, so there really isn't any need to 'inform' us. We don't understand you not because we're ignorant of the horrors of war, but because we know that west, and especially the US, has kept to significantly higher moral standards when waging war than the historical average. I fail to understand A) why you think it's a good thing to throw that away, B) why you think that saying "this has happened in the past, so it's ok now" constitutes a sound argument.

DDT
16-01-2009, 05:47
We don't understand you not because we're ignorant of the horrors of war, but because we know that west, and especially the US, has kept to significantly higher moral standards when waging war than the historical average. I fail to understand A) why you think it's a good thing to throw that away,

The US is not throwing that away. They still have the same moral ground that was acceptable during WWII. The US hasn't changed. What has changes is Liberal politically correct politics.


B)
why you think that saying "this has happened in the past, so it's ok now" constitutes a sound argument.I never said that it is OK. War is not OK, but as imperfection is a Human condition, there are times for war, and if it has to be done then it can only be done the same way it has always been done....or the war will be lost by the one who
blinks first. What liberal lefties want Israel to do....is to blink first!





Fatah. They have accepted Israel's right to exist...quite a few years ago. Do get up to date.
And given all the evidence contrary, you think Arabs will actually live up to that? Marmoud Abbas has already said that Fatah need not live up to this. .......I'm sure you and Neville Chaimberlain will be well remembered for your far sightedness!

This is type of thing is played regularly on Arab TV
http://pmw.org.il/asx/PMW_Twolovers.asx
YouTube- Virgins of Paradise

Kvartiraokhotnik
16-01-2009, 07:56
2 questions Mr Odin/Wodin/Wotan:

Do you and Fenrir know each other? It seems somewhat of a MASSIVE co-incincidence that you both chose warlike Norse deities as your handles, and both argue in favour of the slaughter of muslims. We're all friends on here so you can be honest with us. Besides, it shows you have nothing to hide :jester:

Do you believe the Israelis should stop blockading Gaza, bulldozing homes, stealing land and bombing schools? I believe its the only road to peace.

Wodin
16-01-2009, 09:31
Two answers: No and yes respectively.

fenrir
16-01-2009, 12:48
Do you and Fenrir know each other? It seems somewhat of a MASSIVE co-incincidence that you both chose warlike Norse deities as your handles, and both argue in favour of the slaughter of muslims. We're all friends on here so you can be honest with us. Besides, it shows you have nothing to hide :jester:

I smell a conspiracy theory coming. Pretty soon someone will find a website that links Wodin and I to 9/11, the Bush family and Bin Laden.

Kvartiraokhotnik
16-01-2009, 14:24
I smell a conspiracy theory coming. Pretty soon someone will find a website that links Wodin and I to 9/11, the Bush family and Bin Laden.

So, my next question:

Why did you both choose Norse Deities accosiated with war and death as your handles?

is it just because you both love War and Death?

Were either of you surprised when you noticed that the other was also a Nordic God?

I imagine its just one of those co-incidences :jester:

fenrir
16-01-2009, 14:54
So, my next question:

Why did you both choose Norse Deities accosiated with war and death as your handles?

is it just because you both love War and Death?

Were either of you surprised when you noticed that the other was also a Nordic God?

I imagine its just one of those co-incidences :jester:

Actually, we are part of the Steel, Fire and Blood trinity. Your next mission is to discover our third and, as of yet, undisclosed member.

RRM
16-01-2009, 15:00
What's the context for the white phosphorus ? I haven't heard of that being used ...


Where have you been ?

Wodin
16-01-2009, 15:02
So, my next question:

Why did you both choose Norse Deities accosiated with war and death as your handles?

is it just because you both love War and Death?

Were either of you surprised when you noticed that the other was also a Nordic God?

I imagine its just one of those co-incidences :jester:

Actually I never knew that Fenrir is was a norse mythology figure, so thanks for that google you did and posted. Made interesting reading.

One tiny little detail though....my handle is the Saxon cousin of the Norse god (hence the W). The Saxon version was said to be a tiny tad more vicious and bloodthirsty than the Norse one.

Kvartiraokhotnik
16-01-2009, 16:24
Actually I never knew that Fenrir is was a norse mythology figure, so thanks for that google you did and posted. Made interesting reading.

One tiny little detail though....my handle is the Saxon cousin of the Norse god (hence the W). The Saxon version was said to be a tiny tad more vicious and bloodthirsty than the Norse one.

I understand....these kind of co-incidences with handles happen all the time. Only the other day I was on another blog under the name ''Tengu'' the shinto deity and harbinger of war, and some other guy that basically believed everything that I believe happened to be on there as ''Kappa'', a well known shinto spirit who kidnaps children.

What a coinkidink eh?

I imagine the third of your sadistic and occult trilogy would be the other member here who is also under a mythological name - Orion. He also seemed to argue that death and war are good things.

Still he seems to have disappeared after somewhat erroneously claiming that agent orange is a harmless herbicide.

Its always the same - those who worship war are never the fighters. They are the cowards who dare not get near the battlefield, but would rather defend genocide from the cosy position of their armchairs.

fenrir
16-01-2009, 16:28
Its always the same - those who worship war are never the fighters. They are the cowards who dare not get near the battlefield, but would rather defend genocide from the cosy position of their armchairs.

And what do you think you know about me (or us)? You don't know what any of us has done, been involved in, etc. Not everybody blabs on about the past lives on open forums.

Kvartiraokhotnik
16-01-2009, 16:48
And what do you think you know about me (or us)? You don't know what any of us has done, been involved in, etc. Not everybody blabs on about the past lives on open forums.

Who said I was talking about you, Fenrir??

The big bad wolf and future destroyer of the world.

Don't be so sensitive - it already betrays a lot about your past to the discerning eye :goblin:


CHIN UP, STIFF UPPER LIP, and all that jazz

DDT
16-01-2009, 22:14
Since the topic of this thread has taken a turn for the obscure and is now about the apparent link between violent Norse gods, the handles of members and their views on war, I may as well tell you that the "T" in the initials of my handle, being the initial of my real life name, is also the name of a well known and sometimes violent Norse god.

This kind of throws your theory a loop because I was born into my "handle."

Kvartiraokhotnik
17-01-2009, 01:47
Since the topic of this thread has taken a turn for the obscure and is now about the apparent link between violent Norse gods, the handles of members and their views on war, I may as well tell you that the "T" in the initials of my handle, being the initial of my real life name, is also the name of a well known and sometimes violent Norse god.

This kind of throws your theory a loop because I was born into my "handle."

My theory about your head in your teenage loophole is still justified :)

DDT
17-01-2009, 03:30
My theory about your head in your teenage loophole is still justified :)

Well, that's another thread shot to hell by nonsense!

Scrat335
17-01-2009, 03:53
These Arabs civilians in Gaza overwhelmingly are anti-Israel. They allow rockets and bombs to be kept and fired from their homes, hospitals and schools, so THEY GET BOMBED for their "hospitality". Just like the Germans got bombed for for supporting the German war machine. Just like the Japs got bombed for theirs. Just like the Yanks got bombed for theirs, Just like the Aussies got bombed by the Japs for theirs. Just like the Poms got bombed by Hitler in the London Blitz for theirs. And so on through history. You don't have kill the other side's entire army if you prevent them from raising and equipping an army in the first place.

How many Germans wanted a world war? How many Japanese wanted their country bombed?

Whether you realize it our not the vast majority of the countries that are involved in war have populations that would prefer not to go to war. My mother had 2 brothers in Korea. One went willingly, he ended up zigging when he should have zagged and got torn to shreds by a mortor round. The other refused to go when he was drafted, he went to prison until he finally agreed to go as a medic. He survived and a man whos life he saved was at his funeral some years back.
Your lack of knowledge on how organized warfare is implimented is glaring here. Make no mistake, when a nation in the modern age goes to war it is not by the choice of the people, it is by the choice of the government. The vast majority of the people of the nation are coerced in some manner or duped. A small minority will go willingly like obedient dogs following masters to the woods to be shot. It is their "calling" in life shall we say.
Not all Palestinians want to die, not all Israelis want them to. The governments involved call the shots and hold their populations hostage, that is why neither the Israeli government or the Palestinian government have a right to exist in my eyes.

goose0069
18-01-2009, 11:16
When has there been any moderate Palestinians? They have been calling for the complete destruction of Israel from the beginning. Do you call that moderate? Or do you have some secret information to share?


You had better toe your party's line or you will be shunned! Other opinions are not welcome in the Far Left world.

You wouldn't want to live as a Palestinian. I have heard many Palestinians say Israel can build that wall as high as they want just go back to the 67 borders. I think that is very moderate.

DDT
18-01-2009, 12:04
You wouldn't want to live as a Palestinian. I have heard many Palestinians say Israel can build that wall as high as they want just go back to the 67 borders. I think that is very moderate.
Israel has, in fact, returned most of the land that it captured during the 1967 war and right after that war offered to return all of it in exchange for peace and normal relations; the offer was rejected.

As a result of the 1978 Camp David accords, Israel returned the Sinai desert, a territory three times the size of Israel and 91 percent of the territory Israel took control of in the 1967 war.

In 2000, as part of negotiations for a comprehensive and durable peace, Israel offered to turn over all but the smallest portion of the remaining territories to Yasir Arafat. But Israel was rebuffed when Arafat walked out of Camp David and launched the current intifada.

When will you people get a history book and actually read something?

Yasir Arafat has never been less than clear about his goals.....at least not in Arabic. On the same day that he signed the Oslo accords in 1993, in which he promised to renounce terrorism and recognize Israel, he addressed the Palestinian people on Jordanian television and declared that he had taken the first step "in the 1974 plan."
This was a thinly-veiled reference to the "phased plan," according to which any territorial gain was acceptable as a means toward the ultimate goal of Israel’s destruction.




Scratso Says

Make no mistake, when a nation in the modern age goes to war it is not by the choice of the people, it is by the choice of the government. The vast majority of the people of the nation are coerced in some manner or duped. A small minority will go willingly like obedient dogs following masters to the woods to be shot.


Over three-quarters of Palestinians approve of suicide bombings—an appalling statistic but, in light of the facts, an unsurprising one. ......No one need coerce these mofo's! But then again, they're not really "a nation" are they?

Periwinkle
18-01-2009, 22:29
Even before the offensive was launched, Gazans had endured a more than 18-m onth blockade that *exacerbated their dire conditions, destroyed the economy and led to shortages of food, fuel, electricity and goods. (From the Financial Times)

Strange why rockets were shot at Isreal? Rockets that killed seven Isrealis - while during the same time period the Isreali blockade and airstrikes killed hundreds of Palestinians - who then was reacting in 'self defense'?

Carbo
19-01-2009, 00:17
To all those who are lordin' this up as a great way to teach the Gazans not to support Hamas, I have this for you. I want to say that if this child was the ONLY cost of this war, it would be too much.

Gaza Supplies Nauseating Reminder of the Cost of War The Parallax Brief (http://parallaxbrief.wordpress.com/2009/01/19/gaza-supplies-nauseating-reminder-of-the-cost-of-war/)

Wodin
19-01-2009, 00:25
To all those who are lordin' this up as a great way to teach the Gazans not to support Hamas, I have this for you. I want to say that if this child was the ONLY cost of this war, it would be too much.

Gaza Supplies Nauseating Reminder of the Cost of War The Parallax Brief (http://parallaxbrief.wordpress.com/2009/01/19/gaza-supplies-nauseating-reminder-of-the-cost-of-war/)

Very disturbing indeed. I also agree with you that even if that child was the only cost of the entire war it would be too much.

What you don't propose, however, is a solution to the entire problem that would be satisfatory to all parties involved.

DDT
19-01-2009, 01:04
The West Bank and Gaza (controlled by Jordan and Egypt from 1948 to 1967) came under Israeli control during the Six Day War of 1967 that started when Egypt closed the Strait of Tiran and Arab armies amassed on Israel’s borders to invade and eradicate the state. It is important to note, that during their 19-year rule, neither Jordan nor Egypt had made any effort to establish a Palestinian state on those lands. Neither did they input any substantial infrastructure into the districts in order to bring about adequate living conditions. Yet people are only too keen to implicate Israel as the sole evil bully who has caused the horse to buck by placing the thorn under the saddle.

It's not about burnt babies. It's about "whose" burnt babies! Be careful how you choose.....and choose you must.

Carbo
19-01-2009, 01:06
Very disturbing indeed. I also agree with you that even if that child was the only cost of the entire war it would be too much.

What you don't propose, however, is a solution to the entire problem that would be satisfatory to all parties involved.
I think you overestimate me. I have no solution and no idea. It's above my paygrade, I'm afraid. I'm just an amateur, and this needs a serious Kissinger, Bismarck, Saladin, Brzezhinskiy, Churchill foreign affairs brain to discuss.

I would say a good start would be for Israel and and Arab side to both say 'enough!' this has cost too much and has gone on for too long. We no longer want the blood on our hands and we will sit down in a room and find compromise.

How they would find that, I don't know, but firing rockets in, and bombing housing isn't the way for form the basis of agreement. All it's doing is recruiting the next generation for Hamas/Al-Qaeda/Hezbollah and the next set of brutally militaristic, paranoid Israelis who see Arabs as dogs.

robertmf
19-01-2009, 01:11
Rockets that killed seven Isrealis - while during the same time period the Isreali blockade and airstrikes killed hundreds of Palestinians -

The Israelis go on the 10 for 1 principle.

Wodin
19-01-2009, 01:55
I would say a good start would be for Israel and and Arab side to both say 'enough!' this has cost too much and has gone on for too long. We no longer want the blood on our hands and we will sit down in a room and find compromise.

How they would find that, I don't know, but firing rockets in, and bombing housing isn't the way for form the basis of agreement. All it's doing is recruiting the next generation for Hamas/Al-Qaeda/Hezbollah and the next set of brutally militaristic, paranoid Israelis who see Arabs as dogs.

Well, we are on the same page there. How one stops the rockets, and hence the bombings, and therefore the recruitment of another generation of haters on both sides without first eliminating or "converting" the radicals is the million dollar question.

DDT
19-01-2009, 02:20
What's the context for the white phosphorus ? I haven't heard of that being used ...

The "White Phosphorous" charge another case of "Muslim complaining." Sure, it is being used but not used or directed at humans. It is used for illumination and smoke, which is not unusual and is in accordance with International Law. But I dare say the Islamophiles will still cry foul......but why wouldn't they...fools listen!

StandWithUs.org - Breaking Audio and Video News from Israel and The World. ::NEWS:: (http://standwithus.org/app/iNews/view_n.asp?ID=763)

robertmf
19-01-2009, 02:35
The "White Phosphorous" charge another case of "Muslim complaining." Sure, it is being used but not used or directed at humans. It is used for illumination and smoke, which is not unusual and is in accordance with International Law. But I dare say the Islamophiles will still cry foul......but why wouldn't they...fools listen!

StandWithUs.org - Breaking Audio and Video News from Israel and The World. ::NEWS:: (http://standwithus.org/app/iNews/view_n.asp?ID=763)

That was my query. The use is legit. That's why I hadn't heard about it.

MickeyTong
19-01-2009, 02:50
"White Phosphorous"... is being used but not used or directed at humans. It is used for illumination and smoke, which is not unusual and is in accordance with International Law.
We used white phos in Rhodesia - in fact, yours truly was part of the design team for a WP rifle grenade back in '76.
We also said it was for illumination and smoke, to mark targets: it is illegal to use incendiary devices against people. But when you fire one of these things into a cave, they come out screaming and can be easily culled.
White phos is also used as an ignition doodaddy for napalm. Napalm is also banned for use against people (being an incendiary). It is a petroleum gel, which sort of just spreads when you try to get it off your skin.
So in Rhodesia we didn't use napalm. But we did use a thing called frantam: a petroleum gel with a white phos trigger. But it wasn't napalm, oh no, definitely not, that's inhuman and we were defending civilised standards against communist dupes. But, **** me, those nignogs would squeal as the white phos burned them down to the bone: especially the piccanins they used as shields. And then it was just like shooting fish in a barrel. Oh, how we laughed.....

robertmf
19-01-2009, 04:10
We used white phos in Rhodesia - in fact, yours truly was part of the design team for a WP rifle grenade back in '76.
We also said it was for illumination and smoke, to mark targets: it is illegal to use incendiary devices against people. But when you fire one of these things into a cave, they come out screaming and can be easily culled.
White phos is also used as an ignition doodaddy for napalm. Napalm is also banned for use against people (being an incendiary). It is a petroleum gel, which sort of just spreads when you try to get it off your skin.
So in Rhodesia we didn't use napalm. But we did use a thing called frantam: a petroleum gel with a white phos trigger. But it wasn't napalm, oh no, definitely not, that's inhuman and we were defending civilised standards against communist dupes. But, **** me, those nignogs would squeal as the white phos burned them down to the bone: especially the piccanins they used as shields. And then it was just like shooting fish in a barrel. Oh, how we laughed.....

Gun beach, Guam. burnt flesh hanging

MickeyTong
19-01-2009, 04:42
Gun beach, Guam. burnt flesh hanging
Yeah, that sort of thing. Smells like burning pork, with a chemical overlay.