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Kvartiraokhotnik
09-12-2008, 15:59
Hamid Gul with CNN reporter

some juicy bits

''Indeed. I think that this was a very sophisticated operation. There is no doubt about it. It has rocked the - and I have all my sympathies for India - they rock this huge country for 72 hours. And they really don't know how to react and respond to this.

But when you look at the full spectrum of possibilities, who could have done it, then one knows that Samjhauta Express was a similar case, in which Pakistan ISI was accused. But it turned out that it was the militant Hindus themselves who had killed 68 passengers in that train, and that it was an inside job.

Now Colonel Srikant Purohit, who is a serving army officer, he has been caught in this particular case. And the whole thing has turned around.

So, obviously, there is an inside job.''

and about Bin Laden.....

''No. We said, unless the evidence is brought up against him, then he is not a terrorist. It's wrong. 9/11's full evidence has still not emerged. It is still shrouded in mystery.

A lot of people have a lot of misgivings about that. And it's not only me. I think a lot of people in America would be thinking the same way. There are scientists, there are scholars, who have written articles on it.

So, I think to dub a man as terrorist - because I know, I heard him twice say on radio, or something like that, and I think it was Osama - not only that, but Mullah Omar also said that he did not believe that Osama had carried out that act. So, that is still a mystery, and it needs to be resolved. Americans have still to set up a proper commission, an inquiry commission, into this event. I think that's very important. And I think President-designate Obama would do well to set up an inquiry commission into this.

ZAKARIA: What is your hunch as to who did - who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks?

GUL: Well, I have been on record, and I said it is the Zionists or (ph) the neocons. They have done it. It was an inside job.

And they wanted to go on the world conquerors. They were looking upon it as an opportunity window, when the Muslim world was lying prostrate. Russia was nowhere in sight. China was still not an economic giant that is has turned out to be.

And they thought that this was a good time to go and fill (ph) those strategic areas, which are still lying without any American presence. And, of course, to control the energy tap of the world.

Presently, it is the Middle East, and in future it is going to be Central Asia. So, there are many, many XX. And, of course ...

ZAKARIA: But you think ...

GUL: ... XX.

ZAKARIA: But you think who would be ...

GUL: That's what I also think, yes.

ZAKARIA: Who is at the heart of - who do you think was at the heart of plotting 9/11?

GUL: At the - it's very difficult, really. I wouldn't point my finger at it.

But I think it was planned in America. And at least one knows that it was done in Germany, as far as the reports go.

But I think the heart of planning was inside America, because the job was done there. But not a single person so far has been captured, caught, interrogated inside America, even though this entire episode took place there.

ZAKARIA: But you've said that the people behind it were the Zionists, neocon conspiracy. Do you mean by that American Jews? Do you mean Israel?

GUL: No Israel. I will not - because Jews are also divided into - not all Jews are bad. Of course, there are a lot of things common between Jews and Muslims.

In fact, they are the closest to us religion-wise, because some of their scriptures are respected by us. Their prophets are our prophets. They have the injunctions in Torah are very much similar to injunctions in the Holy Quran. So, there are things which are very common.

But there are those people who are very ambitious, who have a certain agenda of their own. And I think they have turned the world upside-down, because of those ambitions or their fears.

So, fear and ambitions are two things which have come together as far as Zionists are concerned. And they are trying to drive the policies of America. And unfortunately, the American people are suffering because of that.''




CNN.com - Transcripts (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/07/fzgps.01.html)


Remember, this is a very influential figure in world politics over the last 30 years. Head of pakistani intelligence when they were CREATING Al Qaeda to fight the soviets. Its also the time Pakistan went nuclear. Interesting to hear his opinion on both ''terrorist'' attacks.

I've always been suspicious about ''terrorist attacks'', ever since it was revealed that the IRA were infiltrated by british intel to such a degree that the decision to bomb seemed to come from London...or at the very least, it was allowed to happen when it could have been stopped. I also got acquainted with someone who worked for british intel, and died out in Ireland in what can only be called extremely suspicious circumstances. At the time I was reading ''The Secret Agent'' by Joseph Conrad. Its a great read, and makes it very clear that at this level of secrecy (such as the planning of terrorist attacks) its very difficult to see who exactly is giving the orders, and who is letting things happen for their own personal gain.

911, and to a lesser extent the London bombs, were clear examples for me of intelligence services orchestrating an attack against their own population for the benefits of those in the political/military/industrial web of power, that hangs across any nation. The mumbai attacks also fall in the same category I assume.

Wodin
09-12-2008, 17:47
Interesting post. I wonder what Mr Gul's views are on the need for muslim women to wear a hijab and the less salubriuos aspects of Sharia Law, and what he thinks of the injuction for islam to spread and, at the very least, keep total control over islamic lands, including Spain.

He sounds to me very much like those shadowy members of the ISI who own or are owned by those muslims who look forward to getting their grubby hands on 60 odd virgins.

Not what I'd describe as an "independent" or even credible, source.

Kvartiraokhotnik
09-12-2008, 18:11
Interesting post. I wonder what Mr Gul's views are on the need for muslim women to wear a hijab and the less salubriuos aspects of Sharia Law, and what he thinks of the injuction for islam to spread and, at the very least, keep total control over islamic lands, including Spain.

He sounds to me very much like those shadowy members of the ISI who own or are owned by those muslims who look forward to getting their grubby hands on 60 odd virgins.

Not what I'd describe as an "independent" or even credible, source.

This may well be true Wodin (the last sentence), but we must remember that the ISI are pretty much an arm of CIA/MI6 enterprises. I think he's just like Saddam, in the sense that he was one of our intelligence assets, but when he'd served his purpose, and was seen to have his own ambitions, he became a liability. Same can even be said of Osama. Nice guy?? probably not. But certainly a former mercenary of the west, but one which became an embarrassment.

Wodin
09-12-2008, 19:51
This may well be true Wodin (the last sentence), but we must remember that the ISI are pretty much an arm of CIA/MI6 enterprises. I think he's just like Saddam, in the sense that he was one of our intelligence assets, but when he'd served his purpose, and was seen to have his own ambitions, he became a liability. Same can even be said of Osama. Nice guy?? probably not. But certainly a former mercenary of the west, but one which became an embarrassment.

One point at a time...I'm feeling a bit slow this evening:

Point 1. The ISI are an arm of the CIA and MI6.
While that statement is debatable, everybody and their goat, including the former Pakistani President and the present Pakistani Government have acknowledged that ISI includes a cadre of muslim fundamentalists whose loyalty lies first and foremost to militant islam and are therefore anti-West and pro Taliban and Bin Laden. Another cadre in the ISI is violently anti Indian and actively works, often against its Government's (stated) position to destabilise Kashmir. It is also ackowledged that the Pakistani Government cannot, is not powerful enough, or is unwilling to purge the ISI from this cadre. It has also been quite conclusively demonstrated that these elements in the ISI were behind the assasination of Benazir Bhutto as she had made noises to the effect that she intends to reign in the ISI if and when she got into power (interview with David Frost on Al Jazeera around mid-Summer 2007). I therefore put it to you that Mr Gul, beloved of Allah, is a former (or active) member of this cadre or otherwise is a supporter thereof. I am of the opinion that the World would benefit from somebody sticking a big missile, fuse lit, up his nether regions.

Point 2. Saddam. Whether or not he had been in the pase an western intelligence asset is not the point. The point is that his ambitions, as you put it, put him into direct conflict with the West's security interests. He therefore had to go.

I find it amusing when people say.."Oh...but he used to be a CIA stooge...the CIA armed and financed him. What he does now is therefore the fault of the CIA." To my mind that is a non sequitur. Think of it this way. You marry a very pretty, sweet, helpful, loving, kind, delicate girl. You have a few years of married bliss and then, for one reason or another, you divorce. The formerly pretty, sweet, helpful, loving, kind, delicate girl suddenly morphs into a complete and utter bitch as she takes you to the cleaners for everything you have and everything you shall ever have. Now I ask you...how would you feel if I told you..."Heh! it's all your fault. The fact that you married her made her treat you that way"

Point 3. Sheikh Bin Laden. Much the same as point 2 above, except that in his case, not only did his ambitions conflict, he actually did something about it. I would, in this case, recomment 2 missiles up ther formerly decribed region and one down his mouth.

RRM
09-12-2008, 22:49
ISI has more control over Pakistan than the government itself. This is why the country has become so dangerous even to Pakistanis. The country was completely bankrupt. Lady luck came in the form of 911 to this country and hence it became an ally on the war on terror which helped fund its bills. Now the coffers were empty as of last month, Pakistan goes to its 'best friend' China for help. The Chinese say, we can loan you $500 million for now but we have our own crisis to deal with. Then the country goes to Saudi Arabia for help. The Saudi prince didnt even want to meet them. Then they are off to the USA who rejected giving anything more. Their neighbor (India) who is cash rich at the moment, could have easily provided some assistance but was never requested. Why, since this would be shameful to ask and would show signs that the government is weak. In which case the ISI would assassinate the president too. The last resort was a meeting between Pakistan's friends in Abu Dhabi, where they had agreed to provide a small change, mostly from China. As that was only a week's supply, it had then gone to the IMF, the most shameful thing to do while even the people protested against it. Not sure what the IMF's terms were but now i has enough cash for sometime until corruption will empty that as well.
With a 140 odd nukes sitting in this land and a government that is trying to fight for control of the country, it makes it a very dangerous place at the moment.
A bit of history:
The ISI is wanting revenge ever since the war of 1965 with India. The other upset being that East Pakistan which was one with the current Pakistan now called Bangladesh was liberated by India in a 6 day war. Then those wars on the Kashmir border due to infiltration by sophisticated terrorists and helped by the ISI. This is where the Indian airforce went mental.
During the time the British were leaving India, they were forming a government which by majority were Hindu (this is easy to explain as 80% of the population are hindu). One of the leader then Jinha who was moslem wanted more representation of moslems in the new government. The British basically asked if there should be a land where the moslems have their own government and Jinha of course agreed even against the persuasion by his fellow hindu freedom fighters. Gandhi predicted that there could be serous problems if this happened. To make a long story short, Pakistan was created. Moslems if they chose to move to Pakistan could move and those who wished to stay in secular India could stay. Since the the geography of Indo-Pakistan being so big, there were two lands, one called East Pakistan (Bangladesh) and the other Pakistan. Both had the same government in Islamabad. East Pakistani's never wanted to be part of this deal and wanted to separate. They then seek India's help to liberate them and so there was a 6 day war in which Bangladesh was created. To go back during the days of the partition of Indian and Pakistan, the Prince of Kashmir being Hindu chose to be part of India. Majority of his subjects however were Moslems. But this was never an issue until the ISI wanted blood for all the things that had gone wrong with India. So the Kashmiri moslems were slowly made to hate India since the late 80's and they did get good support moral and arms from across the border. Insurgency began widespread and yes the Indian police killed some of the insurgents and then you know how things go from there.
The ISI is seeking revenge ever since and some of their former officers are going to be branded as terrorists shortly. This outfit has spoilt Pakistan from being a successful democratic country.
India has over 175 Million moslems and it is not that difficult to trigger something off by the ISI to cause religious tensions. This attack on Mumbai would have been difficult to take place without the help of some Indians in it. Again, with those many moslems in India, its easy to have sympathizers for the Kashmiri cause or for that anti-west feeling that is being taught in some mosques. If you know the language and happened to be in some remote mosques in India, your blood would chill at what is being taught to the followers over the loud speakers.

Gypsy
10-12-2008, 11:29
Thanks RRM and Wodin for the injection of commonsense.

One of my oldest friends-we literally grew up as teenagers together in London is a Colonel in the army. he served 3 tours in Belfast and the rest of the time in the Middle east. he is currently working in the international anti terrorist unit in the states.

Regarding MI6 IRA involvement - some strange things did happen - an unexplained esacpe from Wormwood Scrubs being the most famous: but to say that MI6 or SS colluded with the IRA and helped plan successful bombings and attacks is a fiction, a lie, and gross defamation of the serving officers concerned.

Judge
10-12-2008, 14:54
Strong words coming out of Pakistan.
Pakistan: We're ready for war with India - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/3688288/Pakistan-Were-ready-for-war-with-India.html)

RRM, great post,very interesting..

RRM
10-12-2008, 16:09
Strong words coming out of Pakistan.
Pakistan: We're ready for war with India - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/3688288/Pakistan-Were-ready-for-war-with-India.html)


Yeah read this yesterday. Pakistan is doing something now making army raids and arresting quite a few suspects. At the same time Rice left Pakistan with a warning saying that if Pakistan wont cooporate or take action then the US will. But Pakistani government also needs to be saying such tough words otherwise the people would think it is yet another weak government and the ISI might have the final say in the end.

Judge
10-12-2008, 16:22
Yeah read this yesterday. Pakistan is doing something now making army raids and arresting quite a few suspects. At the same time Rice left Pakistan with a warning saying that if Pakistan wont cooporate or take action then the US will. But Pakistani government also needs to be saying such tough words otherwise the people would think it is yet another weak government and the ISI might have the final say in the end.

Will the people of Pakistan bow down to America getting involved in their own country??Raids by american troops haven't gone down well with the locals.

Wodin
10-12-2008, 18:27
Will the people of Pakistan bow down to America getting involved in their own country??Raids by american troops haven't gone down well with the locals.

Of course they won't. In fact, any more raids, or even worse some sort of incursion by the Allies for more than a day or two, will lead to serious trouble.

Don't forget, Pakistan is a sharia law country. While the government and the "educated" westernised class may take a particular view, the vast majority of the population are well under the thumbs of their mullahs, many of whom are quite extremist. There is no love for the West among the comon man in the street in pakistan (although all of them would give their eye teeth to marry a Brit and get residence).

Also, Pakistan is broke...skint. They survive on the money being given to them by the US. Take that away and you'll have a load of angry, hungry people already predisposed to hate us......

And that's why it's so important to finance, fund, sustain, support and do whatever is necessary to convince, coerce, twist their arms etc the Pakistani Govt to deal effectively with the Wazirs and Pathans.

Judge
10-12-2008, 19:07
Of course they won't. In fact, any more raids, or even worse some sort of incursion by the Allies for more than a day or two, will lead to serious trouble.

Don't forget, Pakistan is a sharia law country. While the government and the "educated" westernised class may take a particulat view, the vast majority of the population are well under the thumbs of their mullahs, many of whom are quite extremist. There is no love for the West among the comon man in the street in pakistan (although all of them would give their eye teeth to marry a Brit and get residence).

Also, Pakistan is broke...skint. They survive on the money being given to them by the US. Take that away and you'll have a load of angry, hungry people already predisposed to hate us......

And that's why it's so important to finance, fund, sustain, support and do whatever is necessary to convince, coece, twist their arms etc the Pakistani Govt to deal effectively with the Wazirs and Pathans.

Maybe some of the money that Pakistan gets from America falls into the wrong hands.I'm fairly sure it's easy to give a few bribes in Pakistan.

Wodin
10-12-2008, 19:09
Maybe some of the money that Pakistan gets from America falls into the wrong hands.I'm fairly sure it's easy to give a few bribes in Pakistan.

Naaa...I don't think so. i'm pretty sure that the money is all properly accounted for in the politicians swiss bank account statements.

Gypsy
10-12-2008, 19:19
Naaa...I don't think so. i'm pretty sure that the money is all properly accounted for in the politicians swiss bank account statements.
Indeed but more likely Liechtenstein.