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DDT
17-10-2008, 13:19
Perhaps the prison population will soon decline.

CNSNews.com - Is There A War Brewing on the War on Drugs? (http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=3332)



(CNS) - From both the right and left, elected officials, policy experts, and advocacy groups have begun to question some of the fundamental practices and assumptions of the so-called "War on Drugs" launched in the 1970s and 1980s.

Carbo
17-10-2008, 14:02
Perhaps the prison population will soon decline.

CNSNews.com - Is There A War Brewing on the War on Drugs? (http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=3332)
I'm paraphrasing, but America is a country that invariably chooses the right course of action, but only after exhausting every other alternative.

DDT
17-10-2008, 20:15
I'm paraphrasing, but America is a country that invariably chooses the right course of action, but only after exhausting every other alternative.
Yeah! The war on alcohol in the 30's didn't work out to well, either.
I've been against this reckless policy since it's conception and also it's heavy handed sister policy of personal property confiscation. And they wonder the jails are full!

Scrat335
17-10-2008, 21:18
Hard to say DDT. Either way you look at it there's a lot of money to be made either by the crooks or the US legal/prison system. It's going to be tough to change anything.

I think all drugs should be legal and taxed personally.

Judge
17-10-2008, 22:09
Hard to say DDT. Either way you look at it there's a lot of money to be made either by the crooks or the US legal/prison system. It's going to be tough to change anything.

I think all drugs should be legal and taxed personally.

I suggest that scientists come up with a wonder drug that beats all drugs..A little bit of everything in it,no ill effect the next day,just a great feeling for a few hours.Sold in shops,taxed and safe for people to take.

Scrat335
18-10-2008, 05:05
It's possible but how could you get around doing damage? :question: You know people would abuse it too. Not just the users either, there's nothing more the elite would want than a mass of drugged obedient slaves.

It sounds Orwellian to me.

Judge
18-10-2008, 22:09
It's possible but how could you get around doing damage? :question: You know people would abuse it too. Not just the users either, there's nothing more the elite would want than a mass of drugged obedient slaves.

It sounds Orwellian to me.

No damage,it will be a safe and a well tested drug.I'm sure if a firm invests millions into this,they will come up with something good.Then it would be down to people if they want to take it. The technology is there but like with all other things we don't use it to our advantage.
People wont abuse it because it would be such a high,no need for anything else.
This wont happen because the people at the top want to keep on losing this war on drugs..

Kvartiraokhotnik
18-10-2008, 23:05
No damage,it will be a safe and a well tested drug.I'm sure if a firm invests millions into this,they will come up with something good.Then it would be down to people if they want to take it. The technology is there but like with all other things we don't use it to our advantage.
People wont abuse it because it would be such a high,no need for anything else.
This wont happen because the people at the top want to keep on losing this war on drugs..

Such a utopian drug doesnt exist!!!

With a roller coaster you have to go up before going down, and the same with all drugs. There will never be a drug which doesnt have a negative side, and thats life im afraid :)

The nasty hangover, or come down, is an essential part of the experience.

Again, just my tupence worth...

MickeyTong
18-10-2008, 23:36
Such a utopian drug doesnt exist!!!

With a roller coaster you have to go up before going down, and the same with all drugs. There will never be a drug which doesnt have a negative side, and thats life im afraid :)

The nasty hangover, or come down, is an essential part of the experience.

Again, just my tupence worth...

Some people are working on it.....

Mission Statement of BLTC Research (http://www.bltc.com/)
utopian - pharmacology . com (http://www.utopian-pharmacology.com/)
The Good Drug Guide : new mood-brighteners and antidepressants (http://biopsychiatry.com/)
Superhappiness ? (http://www.superhappiness.com/)
HedWeb : paradise-engineering (http://www.hedweb.com/confile.htm)

DDT
18-10-2008, 23:52
Sounds like a Woody Allen movie!

Willy
19-10-2008, 00:31
YouTube- Roxy Music - Love Is The Drug

Judge
19-10-2008, 01:33
Some people are working on it.....

Mission Statement of BLTC Research (http://www.bltc.com/)
utopian - pharmacology . com (http://www.utopian-pharmacology.com/)
The Good Drug Guide : new mood-brighteners and antidepressants (http://biopsychiatry.com/)
Superhappiness ? (http://www.superhappiness.com/)
HedWeb : paradise-engineering (http://www.hedweb.com/confile.htm)

Very interesting links there Mickey..
Will take me some time to get through them..Right now reading the one about MDMA,I found this part interesting.

'These super-cocktails and sustainable MDMA analogues should prove life-enhancing for "normal" self-regarding people who would like to improve themselves too. Such usage may or may not stay "off-label"; but it needn't be illegal''.

And even more interesting this part..

First, however, MDMA's acute adverse side-effects i.e. teeth-grinding ["bruxism"], jaw-tension ["trismus"], loss of coordination ["ataxia"], eye-wiggling ["nystagmus"], profuse sweating ["diaphoresis"], nausea, appetite-suppression, tachycardia, dry mouth, hyperthermia or idiosyncratic reactions to MDMA need to be eliminated and not just minimised. The really nasty stuff - hepatotoxicity, cardiac arrhythmias, hyponatremia-induced cerebral and pulmonary edema (caused by drinking too much water), rhabdomyolysis (the breakdown of skeletal muscle), and disseminated intravascular coagulation (inappropriate blood-coagulation leading to severe bleeding) are statistically very rare. MDMA-induced incidence of these syndromes was apparently unknown in clinical practice prior to the drug's legal proscription. However, not all the problems of MDMA use can be blamed on Prohibition and the lethal mix of ignorance and criminality it spawns. Even pure, low-dose MDMA does not suit everybody. In the era of pre-genomic medicine, atypical reactions to any drug at all should be expected. Conversely, with adequate medical research the mildest bad experience on MDMA should be preventable.

Give it time, a new wonder drug will be invented .I just hope that the governments and pharmacutical companies don't screw us over.

Judge
19-10-2008, 01:53
Such a utopian drug doesnt exist!!!

With a roller coaster you have to go up before going down, and the same with all drugs. There will never be a drug which doesnt have a negative side, and thats life im afraid :)

The nasty hangover, or come down, is an essential part of the experience.

Again, just my tupence worth...

Doesn't exist now but maybe one day.
All they got to do is make the come down alot smoother,but the main thing is that it must be an non-addictive drug..
Salvia divinorum is fairly unknown to many people , I believe this has got lots of potential and needs to be looked into... Salvia reminds me of the film Total Recall,where you can really go on a trip to some other place..

Kvartiraokhotnik
19-10-2008, 10:04
Very interesting links there Mickey..
Will take me some time to get through them..Right now reading the one about MDMA,I found this part interesting.

'These super-cocktails and sustainable MDMA analogues should prove life-enhancing for "normal" self-regarding people who would like to improve themselves too. Such usage may or may not stay "off-label"; but it needn't be illegal''.

And even more interesting this part..

First, however, MDMA's acute adverse side-effects i.e. teeth-grinding ["bruxism"], jaw-tension ["trismus"], loss of coordination ["ataxia"], eye-wiggling ["nystagmus"], profuse sweating ["diaphoresis"], nausea, appetite-suppression, tachycardia, dry mouth, hyperthermia or idiosyncratic reactions to MDMA need to be eliminated and not just minimised. The really nasty stuff - hepatotoxicity, cardiac arrhythmias, hyponatremia-induced cerebral and pulmonary edema (caused by drinking too much water), rhabdomyolysis (the breakdown of skeletal muscle), and disseminated intravascular coagulation (inappropriate blood-coagulation leading to severe bleeding) are statistically very rare. MDMA-induced incidence of these syndromes was apparently unknown in clinical practice prior to the drug's legal proscription. However, not all the problems of MDMA use can be blamed on Prohibition and the lethal mix of ignorance and criminality it spawns. Even pure, low-dose MDMA does not suit everybody. In the era of pre-genomic medicine, atypical reactions to any drug at all should be expected. Conversely, with adequate medical research the mildest bad experience on MDMA should be preventable.

Give it time, a new wonder drug will be invented .I just hope that the governments and pharmacutical companies don't screw us over.

I still disagree that its possible to remove the bad effects. The above example of MDMA is a great example, as there are many unwanted side effects even with a drug which makes you feel utterly in love and empathetic with everybody. You see, the problem is that you feel a bit of a tit afterwards, when everyone is telling you how you attempted to kiss and cuddle everyone in the room. Couple this with all the physical side effects, and you aint got a solely positive experience....quite the opposite in fact!!!!


The truth is, we all have to find the POISON which suits us. Like the saying goes, each to his own poison. I'm certainly not anti drugs...I feel people have always used them, and will continue to use them....but I think the idea of a solely positive drug experience is a contradiction. In life we have to take the rough with the smooth, the peaks and the troughs...and the interesting part is that we only truly know we are on a peak when we're coming back down, and we only know we're in a trough when we're coming back up. Same with drugs. What goes up, must come down.

The idea of a drug which only makes you go up is a scary idea, and bound to cause psychological problems, even if it lacks physical side effects.

Scrat335
19-10-2008, 13:57
Why use a drug?

I read in a book by Larry Niven that they found the ultimate "recreational device", it was a wire implanted in your brain which stimulated the pleasure center when you attached a device to it.

Problem is once you got on "the wire" you never wanted to get off. I think that goes for anything and always will. Your body has more control over you than you think it does, that's the trap of addiction. People think they won't get addicted but don't realize that their conscious mind is actually working at the sufferance of instinct. Instinct is far more powerful than conscious thought.
People will get addicted to anything.

MickeyTong
19-10-2008, 14:02
Why use a drug?

I read in a book by Larry Niven that they found the ultimate "recreational device", it was a wire implanted in your brain which stimulated the pleasure center when you attached a device to it.

Problem is once you got on "the wire" you never wanted to get off. I think that goes for anything and always will. Your body has more control over you than you think it does, that's the trap of addiction. People think they won't get addicted but don't realize that their conscious mind is actually working at the sufferance of instinct. Instinct is far more powerful than conscious thought.
People will get addicted to anything.

Wirehead hedonism versus paradise-engineering (http://www.wireheading.com/)

Judge
19-10-2008, 14:25
I still disagree that its possible to remove the bad effects. The above example of MDMA is a great example, as there are many unwanted side effects even with a drug which makes you feel utterly in love and empathetic with everybody. You see, the problem is that you feel a bit of a tit afterwards, when everyone is telling you how you attempted to kiss and cuddle everyone in the room. Couple this with all the physical side effects, and you aint got a solely positive experience....quite the opposite in fact!!!!


The truth is, we all have to find the POISON which suits us. Like the saying goes, each to his own poison. I'm certainly not anti drugs...I feel people have always used them, and will continue to use them....but I think the idea of a solely positive drug experience is a contradiction. In life we have to take the rough with the smooth, the peaks and the troughs...and the interesting part is that we only truly know we are on a peak when we're coming back down, and we only know we're in a trough when we're coming back up. Same with drugs. What goes up, must come down.

The idea of a drug which only makes you go up is a scary idea, and bound to cause psychological problems, even if it lacks physical side effects.
Nothing wrong with being all loved up and hugging people,if there was more of this in the world,the world would be a happier place.
Remember, nothing is impossible.A little tampering here and there and who knows what good might come out of it.
Taking out the roughness is the whole point,this way people wont need to use other drugs which can harm them.

Scrat335 said ''Why use a drug''?
Many people use drugs to escape from reality.

You knows guys..I often think that the world would be a much nicer place if the worlds leaders smoked a big fat joint and chilled out to the ''Dark Side of the Moon''

MickeyTong
19-10-2008, 14:28
"A lot of people recoil from the word "drugs" - which is understandable given today's noxious street drugs and their uninspiring medical counterparts. Yet even academics and intellectuals in our society typically take the prototypical dumb drug, ethyl alcohol. If it's socially acceptable to take a drug that makes you temporarily happy and stupid, then why not rationally design drugs to make people perpetually happier and smarter? Presumably, in order to limit abuse-potential, one would want any ideal pleasure drug to be akin - in one limited but important sense - to nicotine, where the smoker's brain finely calibrates its optimal level: there is no uncontrolled dose-escalation."
The Abolitionist Project (http://abolitionist.com/)

J.D.
19-10-2008, 14:29
Michael Crighton's The Terminal Man addressed this issue also.

Zhenulka
19-10-2008, 16:54
Wirehead hedonism versus paradise-engineering (http://www.wireheading.com/)

Whatever abolitionists say to scientifically justify genetic paradize-engineering and pleasure-drugs, there is still something inherently wrong about artificially-stimulated feeling of happiness and well-being. I firmly believe that a long-lasting and wholesome well-being can only be achieved through a voluntary conscious effort of the mind rather than through the usage of extraneous stimulants or genetic programming. Like a most advanced computer may get irrepairably broken if just one chip inadvertantly goes wrong so a genetically programmed human being can malfunction if just one of the genes fails because he has no natural immunity or innate alternative mechanism to fight mental or physical pain.

The ancient yogis are believed to have been able to subdue pain and other unpleasant physical sensations, let alone negative emotions but they presumably achieved it through the training of their mind and body instead of resorting to various extraneous incentives.

The impetus to become a happier and better-natured human being should come from within, not without, to take its full effect on both the individual and society as whole.

My non-scientific take on things.

Kvartiraokhotnik
19-10-2008, 17:24
Nothing wrong with being all loved up and hugging people,if there was more of this in the world,the world would be a happier place.
Remember, nothing is impossible.A little tampering here and there and who knows what good might come out of it.
Taking out the roughness is the whole point,this way people wont need to use other drugs which can harm them.

Scrat335 said ''Why use a drug''?
Many people use drugs to escape from reality.

You knows guys..I often think that the world would be a much nicer place if the worlds leaders smoked a big fat joint and chilled out to the ''Dark Side of the Moon''

I agree judge :)

There ain't nothing wrong with drugs...and they should all be legalised.

But that isn't to say that there is something particulary amazing about them either. A lot of the worlds leaders have shown propensities for drugs, but that doesnt make them better people, generally speaking. Drugs are just something that some people do, but its not a good measure of their character. They have pros (open up your mind and release positive emotions) and cons (play with your emotions and mess up your physical well being)...and generally work in different ways with different people. Some people panic after a few tokes of ganga, and yet feel quite at home with some ketamine. Others are quiet the reverse. Same with alcohol - some can handle it, some can't.

I'm extremely suspicious of some sort of wonder drug with no negative effects....sounds like hell to me!

DDT
19-10-2008, 21:51
Whatever abolitionists say to scientifically justify genetic paradize-engineering and pleasure-drugs, there is still something inherently wrong about artificially-stimulated feeling of happiness and well-being. I firmly believe that a long-lasting and wholesome well-being can only be achieved through a voluntary conscious effort of the mind rather than through the usage of extraneous stimulants or genetic programming.

It's just like taking a vacation! Everyone takes one. Those who don't take one and those who take too many burn out!

Kvartiraokhotnik
19-10-2008, 22:28
It's just like taking a vacation! Everyone takes one. Those who don't take one and those who take too many burn out!


Once again DDT, one of those rare moments where we agree.

MickeyTong
19-10-2008, 23:21
[QUOTE=Scrat335;453498]I read in a book by Larry Niven that they found the ultimate "recreational device", it was a wire implanted in your brain which stimulated the pleasure center when you attached a device to it. QUOTE]

Electrodes implanted into the brain are already being used to treat Parkinson's and refractory depression.

Technology Review: Brain Electrodes Help Treat Depression (http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/18590/)